Swarming in CoM

[onmove_broke]

Can someone explain to me why bards swarm in COM? With all the places to go, they choose to pull every single mob from moat/arena and then train the reavers when done. Is this not considered zone disruption or since it is technically an outdoor zone, it is not? Green is already on life support with 500 people on only while Quarm hits 1100....Seems like green has just become kingdoms playground at this point.

[Toxigen]

just steal mobs off their kites

[Smoofers]

Because it's the best exp for players who are good at the game. You should try it some time.

[cd288]

Can someone explain to me why bards swarm in COM? With all the places to go, they choose to pull every single mob from moat/arena and then train the reavers when done. Is this not considered zone disruption or since it is technically an outdoor zone, it is not? Green is already on life support with 500 people on only while Quarm hits 1100....Seems like green has just become kingdoms playground at this point.

If groups are trying to XP in those camps and the Bard is either pulling their mobs or otherwise swarming around the area and fucking up the group's pulls, causing aggro/trains on them, etc. then yes would be zone disruption.

[Mendo]

Most of the bards I have seen do this are really respectful about it. They communicate with the pullers and avoid the mobs that other people are camping. There are always bad apples out there though.

[Jimjam]

Find some lvl 60 druids or wizards and ask them to come chase out the bard by bombing the kites? I don't have a relevant 60 on green, but I'm always happy to do this on blue so I'm sure there are plenty of people on green who will be happy to disrupt the bards zone disruption.

[Ciderpress]

Guys, remember, be respectful when getting mad about bards being total obnoxious douchebags and ruining a zone. If you're lucky, and you treat them right, they might even get you a FREE REZ after you are inevitably killed by them.

[Ciderpress]

Most of the bards I have seen do this are really respectful about it. They communicate with the pullers and avoid the mobs that other people are camping. There are always bad apples out there though.

Yeah no they don't. Groups in dungeons don't have some static list of "mobs they are camping". You just pull what's available, as your group composition inevitably changes.

It's not a bad apples thing. The entire practice is inherently disruptive and annoying to like every single other player in the game.

Hey here's an idea: Don't do this at all, and you're a good apple in my book!

[cd288]

Or just FD a train onto the swarm if they're being unflexible assholes

[cd288]

Yeah no they don't. Groups in dungeons don't have some static list of "mobs they are camping". You just pull what's available, as your group composition inevitably changes.

This isn't really true per the PNP. In dungeons the PNP has a definition of what comprises a camp

[Ciderpress]

This isn't really true per the PNP. In dungeons the PNP has a definition of what comprises a camp

Ah yes, the play nice policy.

Hey here's a good way to play nice: don't swarm in dungeons you retards.

[WarpathEQ]

Have you ever stopped to think that the bard trying to swarm the zone finds you disruptive for pulling and killing mobs as a group?

The same question could be posed towards anyone that chooses to get exp in any form in CoM or any other zone in everquest.

The answer: Because they want to.

Whether that's the most efficient camp they know of, the only way they know how to exp, something they have nostalgia from doing as a kid, or just down right enjoy it doesn't really matter. At the end of the day that person made a choice no different than you did to be in that place doing what they are doing. Your actions could be just as problematic to them as theirs are to you. That doesn't make it more right or wrong for either person it just is.

My favorite reaction is competition. To lean in to what I was doing there in the first place, to do it to the best of my ability. I find that people that want to camp in the same area I want to camp don't stick around very long if I perform at a high level and leave them little to nothing to do while I'm there.

[shovelquest]

Or just FD a train onto the swarm if they're being unflexible assholes


......🎵 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDqnADGdagc&t=17s)

https://i.imgur.com/qoGxX34.png

[Ciderpress]

Have you ever stopped to think that the bard trying to swarm the zone finds you disruptive for pulling and killing mobs as a group?


Lmao okay.

Have you ever stopped to think that ninja looting valuable items is just how some people enjoy the game? They might consider YOU the ninja looter, by ninja looting their ability to do it!

[cd288]

Ah yes, the play nice policy.

Hey here's a good way to play nice: don't swarm in dungeons you retards.

Don't disagree with you on that. Was just saying that dungeons have defined camps

[cd288]

Have you ever stopped to think that the bard trying to swarm the zone finds you disruptive for pulling and killing mobs as a group?

lol shut up dude

[loramin]

Don't disagree with you on that. Was just saying that dungeons have defined camps

Technically outdoor zones have defined camps too: each spawn point is a defined camp.

[cd288]

Technically outdoor zones have defined camps too: each spawn point is a defined camp.

Yes but COM is a dungeon

[Jimjam]

a COM dungeon, the most squallid, dank dungeon of all.

[onmove_broke]

I have seen bards swarm in RCY in Karnors too (also an outdoor zone). I think a good idea would be to make swarming the same as AOE spells and it be a max of 4 mobs.

[cd288]

I have seen bards swarm in RCY in Karnors too (also an outdoor zone). I think a good idea would be to make swarming the same as AOE spells and it be a max of 4 mobs.

Just to clear something up here, there's a difference between outdoor zones for spell purposes and outdoor zones for PNP purposes.

Just because a dungeon allows certain spells like SoW to be cast doesn't mean it's an outdoor zone for PNP purposes. Karnors is considered a dungeon for the latter.

[onmove_broke]

Just to clear something up here, there's a difference between outdoor zones for spell purposes and outdoor zones for PNP purposes.

Just because a dungeon allows certain spells like SoW to be cast doesn't mean it's an outdoor zone for PNP purposes. Karnors is considered a dungeon for the latter.

Gotcha. Was never really sure how these places are considered since they are technically outdoor but still have "camps"

[cd288]

Gotcha. Was never really sure how these places are considered since they are technically outdoor but still have "camps"

Yeah reason I mention it is because sometimes you will get the dickheads who say "well this is an outdoor zone" in something that's blatantly a dungeon just to try and argue for why they can do the jerk things they are doing haha

[loramin]

Gotcha. Was never really sure how these places are considered since they are technically outdoor but still have "camps"

https://wiki.project1999.com/Camp_Rules has a link to a forum post (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370929%7CZone) with the outdoor vs. dungeon breakdown (not to mention lots of other camp rule minutiae).

[zelld52]

Bards will swarm CoM, and say

"It's an outdoor zone you can only camp one mob."

That rule only applies to TRUE outdoor zones with 6:40 spawns. City of Mist is a dungeon, it just so happens to be outdoors.

[zelld52]

I stopped playing p99 because on Green there are a rotating doofus squad of bards that kite nearly the entire back half of the zone (arena, moat, 2nd, 3rd floor) while others are in zone. It causes trains, it causes the groups to run out of mobs to kill - and the GMs dont ever do shit about it.

Countless times, I've seen in /ooc groups complaining about bard swarming. I always tell the players to petition - who knows if they do... But I don't ever see the bards leaving the zone..

[aaezil]

How do you kill that which has no life?

[grims]

Sadly some of the bards in COM can be an absolute nuisance, do not warn the zone when they are starting a swarm / take from area's groups are actively sourcing from.

Some though are the diamond in the rough and will warn when starting a swarm as well as when mobs are returning.

I highly suggest making a /w function binding it to a movement key and watching for these bards. It saved me countless times in my hardcore / permadeath runs in COM and other area's.

I will say I do hope that something is done about bards who intentionally disrupt active groups but I do understand the ones that go in the early morning and want to get that massive xp / warn others.

[onmove_broke]

I do not think it matters if the bard is nice or not. It's just plain stupid to swarm in CoM. There are numbers of other zones to do it. Just make it a limit of 4 mobs like all other AoE. That solves the problem real fast

[zelld52]

I do not think it matters if the bard is nice or not. It's just plain stupid to swarm in CoM. There are numbers of other zones to do it. Just make it a limit of 4 mobs like all other AoE. That solves the problem real fast

You'd think so, but many times I've seen bards gathering 60-70+ mobs in CoM, despite their songs only being able to hit 25.

While other groups are in zone. They just run around and collect literally every mob they can, despite it being 2-3x the max mob count for songs.

[Jimjam]

You'd think so, but many times I've seen bards gathering 60-70+ mobs in CoM, despite their songs only being able to hit 25.

While other groups are in zone. They just run around and collect literally every mob they can, despite it being 2-3x the max mob count for songs.

Yeah, but you don't want one of the mobs to die so you're only hitting 24 mobs. I like to use my time efficiently, which is why I sit in front of a 25 year old computer game for 8 hours at a time watching my electronic action figure run in noisy circles.

[zelld52]

I never heard of anyone refer to it as electronic action figure. Thats awesome. Damn now I wanna come back

[Mendo]

Yeah no they don't. Groups in dungeons don't have some static list of "mobs they are camping". You just pull what's available, as your group composition inevitably changes.

It's not a bad apples thing. The entire practice is inherently disruptive and annoying to like every single other player in the game.

Hey here's an idea: Don't do this at all, and you're a good apple in my book!

Your group is more deserving to the mobs than the bard or the bard and his group?

All I know is that last time I leveled in CoM there was a bard doing this. He sent me a tell and asked what I was pulling and told me what he was doing with the mobs and how they would behave on his pull. We had 0 issues all day. The only annoying part was the reaver returning home, but that honestly wasnt too big of a deal. Guy even told me to come and loothis mobs if I wanted.

[shovelquest]

This whole conversation is a rip off of atlas shrugged.

[Lorasis]

You'd think so, but many times I've seen bards gathering 60-70+ mobs in CoM, despite their songs only being able to hit 25.

While other groups are in zone. They just run around and collect literally every mob they can, despite it being 2-3x the max mob count for songs.

Because as mobs drop off that 25 mob queue you're hitting (which they do, some have lower hp), new mobs rotate in. If you pull 60-70+ mobs, you're guaranteed that the songs will be hitting a full 25 mobs for a while, which increases efficiency.

[cd288]

I do not think it matters if the bard is nice or not. It's just plain stupid to swarm in CoM. There are numbers of other zones to do it. Just make it a limit of 4 mobs like all other AoE. That solves the problem real fast

My personal opinion is that it's stupid to swarm there since it's basically the only dungeon that people group in in that level range on P99. Hard enough to find workable groups as your levels progress (pre-50s of course)...so it's annoying when a Bard does it in the only grouping zone.

[WarpathEQ]

I do not think it matters if the bard is nice or not. It's just plain stupid to swarm in CoM. There are numbers of other zones to do it. Just make it a limit of 4 mobs like all other AoE. That solves the problem real fast

For clarity there are 2 types of AoE spells:

Targeted AoE spells are like you describe where they can land on up to 4 mobs and the AoE area is based on the target the spell/song lands on

Point Blank AoE (PBAOE) spells/songs land on up to 25 mobs and the AoE area is based on the caster.


PBAoEs are not unique to the bard class, there are several classes that have PBAoE spells and could effectively kill mobs in groups of 25 at a time. Fear clearing comes to mind where groups routinely burn down mobs in groups of 25 in seconds.

People always make the argument they should go to a different zone, there are other places to swarm...well guess what, there are other places to EXP too. The other person could make just as strong of a case of why YOU should be the one to go elsewhere, nobody has more or less right to a zone than someone else.

Any zone you suggest that is the perfect zone for swarming in your mind you could search in this forum and find a thread about how bards shouldn't be able to swarm there and go somewhere else, the reality is people are going to go to the places that they can accomplish what they are trying to most effectively. That makes you and the bard you're angry at no different from each other.

The reality is this is just another of the same thread that repeats itself daily on the forum. A thread about entitlement. A thread about why I should get to have things that you shouldn't. A thread about why you should spend your time doing what I think is best for you, not what you think is best for you. Take it out to the extreme and the same points made in this thread are the same reason that casters shouldn't be allowed to cast spells, that healers shouldn't be allowed to heal, and that melee classes shouldn't be able to engage mobs at melee range. Its all nonsense.

Heres a really crazy idea that actually works! If you don't want other people killing mobs around you then keep all the mobs around you dead. You can't pull stuff that isn't there, you can't kite in an area that there is nothing to kite. Give someone an opportunity and they will take it. If you want to spend your life crying about other people taking advantage of opportunities you give them well then it sucks to suck and life is going to be real hard for you.

[zelld52]

Found the rotbrain bard.

Here’s a little equation for you.

18 people in zone, who all travelled there because it’s the only place thst people their level range are grouping.

1 bard, who is either power leveling, or is feeling anti sofial enough to run circles solo for hours.

The 18 people formed in groups of 3,4+ are the entitled ones? Not the bard. Gotcha.

Secondly. If the bard takes

[zelld52]

If the bard takes more than their songs can hit, which is far more than any group can handle at once (unless they also have a bard to kite). How on earth could you possibly compete?

I’m not talking a bard seeing that the zone is somewhat full, and heading upstairs to pull.. this is about the bards that see a group in the arena, say some shit like “well you can technically only claim one spawn outdoors, so claim one area and I , king bard will be so kind as to leave your 5 spawns off of my massive 50+ mob kite.”

Again the other players are the entitled ones by your logic. Probably because your parents didn’t love you, and you had to fight with your siblings over food availability as a child

[WarpathEQ]

If the bard takes more than their songs can hit, which is far more than any group can handle at once (unless they also have a bard to kite). How on earth could you possibly compete?

I’m not talking a bard seeing that the zone is somewhat full, and heading upstairs to pull.. this is about the bards that see a group in the arena, say some shit like “well you can technically only claim one spawn outdoors, so claim one area and I , king bard will be so kind as to leave your 5 spawns off of my massive 50+ mob kite.”

Again the other players are the entitled ones by your logic. Probably because your parents didnÂ’t love you, and you had to fight with your siblings over food availability as a child

Sounds like project quarm is your lord and savior, if you can't handle other people in the same zone killing mobs as you are, than P99 or classic everquest just simply isn't the game for you. Project quarm created instances to handle all the softies that make these posts on the forums but struggle to actually play the game.

Is the problem that someone is capable of killing mobs way more efficiently than you? Would you feel differently if it was a full group of AoE casters melting the zone instead of a bard because its more than 1 person or they have to stand still while doing it?
If the people in this group in the examples given are so capable of killing so many more mobs than why were all the mobs sitting there up, and un-engaged, in the first place for the bard to tag?

I'm so sorry that someone came into the zone and took away your security blanket of 60-70 mobs that are just sitting there, not engaged, and not dying at any given time. Its a real shame they let all that wasted loot and exp be put to use, and that the developers who worked hard to create re-spawn timers actually had a purpose. I can't comprehend how such a horrible thing could occur.

Not that anyone does, because in my experience these threads are about crying not about finding solutions, but in the event anyone actually wants to learn something...CSR have commented on these threads in the past that it is acceptable to pull mobs off a kite that is more than 25 mobs when there aren't other mobs available to kill in the area. Just be aware that when you pull a mob from the heart of a kite that you are now dirty from social agro on all the other mobs around it. I don't expect that you know what that means just remember when you die that "I told you so" and no need to make another thread to cry in.

[plzrelax]

I was in a group in KC a while back (ugh) and we had a bard puller. He was literally pulling the entire basement to LCY and kiting them around the courtyard while the rest of the group beat on the mobs. We were forced to invite a wizard to the group because he was legally stealing some of the kills from the kite.

[Jimjam]

Lol was that Euthenasia?

[Swish]

Elf laws lol

[cd288]

For clarity there are 2 types of AoE spells:

Targeted AoE spells are like you describe where they can land on up to 4 mobs and the AoE area is based on the target the spell/song lands on

Point Blank AoE (PBAOE) spells/songs land on up to 25 mobs and the AoE area is based on the caster.


PBAoEs are not unique to the bard class, there are several classes that have PBAoE spells and could effectively kill mobs in groups of 25 at a time. Fear clearing comes to mind where groups routinely burn down mobs in groups of 25 in seconds.

People always make the argument they should go to a different zone, there are other places to swarm...well guess what, there are other places to EXP too. The other person could make just as strong of a case of why YOU should be the one to go elsewhere, nobody has more or less right to a zone than someone else.

Any zone you suggest that is the perfect zone for swarming in your mind you could search in this forum and find a thread about how bards shouldn't be able to swarm there and go somewhere else, the reality is people are going to go to the places that they can accomplish what they are trying to most effectively. That makes you and the bard you're angry at no different from each other.

The reality is this is just another of the same thread that repeats itself daily on the forum. A thread about entitlement. A thread about why I should get to have things that you shouldn't. A thread about why you should spend your time doing what I think is best for you, not what you think is best for you. Take it out to the extreme and the same points made in this thread are the same reason that casters shouldn't be allowed to cast spells, that healers shouldn't be allowed to heal, and that melee classes shouldn't be able to engage mobs at melee range. Its all nonsense.

Heres a really crazy idea that actually works! If you don't want other people killing mobs around you then keep all the mobs around you dead. You can't pull stuff that isn't there, you can't kite in an area that there is nothing to kite. Give someone an opportunity and they will take it. If you want to spend your life crying about other people taking advantage of opportunities you give them well then it sucks to suck and life is going to be real hard for you.

This is the dumbest take in this thread thus far. Especially the PBAoE thing...lol at that

[onmove_broke]

Make the range of Bard AoE smaller so that they cannot hit the mob without being hit themself. Or limit the ability of a Bard to AoE swarm to true outdoor zones only.

[Stakorian]

It is incredibly easy to control not only the kite but also the reavers before zoning out. If it's crowded it is easy to just come back later. However, a number of times what ends up happening is a temple or stable group will also pull from arena and moat and then complain about the bard taking other mobs. As long as the bard informs people of the pull it only takes 2 minutes to gather the mobs on the north side of arena.

Arena is never in trouble if the reaver is run to moat before zoning. Moat is never in trouble of pulling floors 2 and 3 if they know the pull is happening and pull along the sides as most groups do.

Velks is a cluster fuck, but CoM is the truth. All parties should work together unless the bard is a clown that can't control easily controllable swarms.

[zelld52]

It is incredibly easy to control not only the kite but also the reavers before zoning out. If it's crowded it is easy to just come back later. However, a number of times what ends up happening is a temple or stable group will also pull from arena and moat and then complain about the bard taking other mobs. As long as the bard informs people of the pull it only takes 2 minutes to gather the mobs on the north side of arena.

Arena is never in trouble if the reaver is run to moat before zoning. Moat is never in trouble of pulling floors 2 and 3 if they know the pull is happening and pull along the sides as most groups do.

Velks is a cluster fuck, but CoM is the truth. All parties should work together unless the bard is a clown that can't control easily controllable swarms.

there are some bards in this game that dont play nice with others. for some reason, they are immune to the PnP put in place in this game. these are the bards that dont care if the zone is packed, dont care if someone is on the 2nd / 3rd floor.. and spend 7 days a week swarming in city of mist.

fuck those bards. and honestly CSR seemingly doesnt give a shit about it

[WarpathEQ]

This is the dumbest take in this thread thus far. Especially the PBAoE thing...lol at that

Almost as dumb as crying about exp camps on P99, a server that has roughly a quarter of the population that live servers had with over half of the population being geared 60s that don't go into the majority of exp camps.

Some of the things pointed out are intentionally dumb sounding to highlight how dumb this entire thread is for existing. Analogies can be a powerful thing, for example:

Saying a Bard shouldn't be allowed to swarm in X zone is no different than saying enchanters shouldn't be able to charm pets there, that shaman shouldn't be able to root rot with their epic, that druids/wizards shouldn't be able to quad kite. These are all examples of a class using the generally accepted most efficient way to kill mobs.

I think we can all agree when you remove bard and apply this same line of thinking to other classes (some i.e. enchanter that people unanimously agree is a far more powerful class than bard) it sounds incredibly stupid. So yes I agree with you, this is in fact (one of) the dumbest threads possible.

[Jimjam]

Almost as dumb as crying about exp camps on P99, a server that has roughly a quarter of the population that live servers had with over half of the population being geared 60s that don't go into the majority of exp camps.

Some of the things pointed out are intentionally dumb sounding to highlight how dumb this entire thread is for existing. Analogies can be a powerful thing, for example:

Saying a Bard shouldn't be allowed to swarm in X zone is no different than saying enchanters shouldn't be able to charm pets there, that shaman shouldn't be able to root rot with their epic, that druids/wizards shouldn't be able to quad kite. These are all examples of a class using the generally accepted most efficient way to kill mobs.

I think we can all agree when you remove bard and apply this same line of thinking to other classes (some i.e. enchanter that people unanimously agree is a far more powerful class than bard) it sounds incredibly stupid. So yes I agree with you, this is in fact (one of) the dumbest threads possible.

To be fair people hogging spawns or camps one way or another would have been resolved in era by enforcing sharing. The core of the complaint is other players not making reasonable accomodations for sharing. Ergo I judge the complaining classic.

[WarpathEQ]

there are some bards in this game that dont play nice with others. for some reason, they are immune to the PnP put in place in this game. these are the bards that dont care if the zone is packed, dont care if someone is on the 2nd / 3rd floor.. and spend 7 days a week swarming in city of mist.

fuck those bards. and honestly CSR seemingly doesnt give a shit about it

To be clear I'm not advocating for people to be shitty to each other and fully agree with the few productive posts in the thread that point out that a little communication goes a long way.

With that said, to say what has been described here is a PNP violation, and that CSR doesn't enforce PNP violations isn't really an accurate depiction. Copy and pasting directly from the PNP:

In general, if the placeholder or placeholders for a spawn are being killed, that 'camp' can be considered held by the player doing the killing so long as they are keeping the placeholders (or the room if there are no placeholders) cleared, within the same zone, do not die or log off.

As you can see the camp rules define that a camp is claimed when the mobs in the camp are consitently being cleared, not when someone is standing in an area staring at a bunch of spawned mobs. The fact that in the examples given the bard was not only able to find enough mobs that were sitting there un-engaged at their spawn points to achieve a kite, but were actually able to find 2-3x more than the 25 limit their pbaoe songs will hit displays that there were clearly pulling from camps that were not already claimed per written letter of the policy.

A more accurate depiction of the events is that there are people on P99 that have become so entitled because of how sparse the server is that it has become an expectation that when you exp in an area that you won't encounter other players also trying to do the same thing. Therefore these people operate under the assumption that if any mob in the zone they could possibly consider killing gets contested that its a flagrant foul that should be met with sweeping punishment and class nerfs, when in reality the ruleset gives no one person or entity favoritism over another when it comes to competing for mobs that are not already actively engaged and/or consistently being cleared. Therefore the events that have occurred as described in this thread are in fact ENDORSED by the PNP. Which is the actual reason that CSR isn't taking corrective action, because the players in these examples are in fact following the rules. A ruleset that is designed to ensure that all players in aggregate as a community experience the most amount of opportunities to receive experience and loot but not wasting mobs sitting up at their spawn point.

The solution is EXTREMELY SIMPLE. You will never have a camp dispute with someone in P99 if you actually properly hold down your camp. Its not possible for someone to pull mobs out of your camp when the mobs are all dead. Pick a camp you can actually manage, i.e. keep all the spawns dead before repops. Pay attention to respawn timers and IF you have a gap AND there are other mobs in the area sitting up you're fine to kill them to be as efficient as possible, just make sure you're ready for that first repop so you don't risk losing the claim on your actual properly claimed camp. At that point the only thing someone can do to negatively impact your camp is train you or kill steal a mob you're engaged on. Both of which are very clear cut and dry violations of the PNP and therefore CSR will infact enforce if a petition is needed.

[WarpathEQ]

To be fair people hogging spawns or camps one way or another would have been resolved in era by enforcing sharing. The core of the complaint is other players not making reasonable accomodations for sharing. Ergo I judge the complaining classic.

The complaint references kiting 60-70 mobs, this clearly demonstrates that there were plenty of opportunities for the zone to support both the existing groups and the bard. If the zone was crowded and tapped out of spawns than the bard would see there isn't even 25 mobs available and would either log out and come back later or find a different spot. Enforcing sharing is well and good, however, it would still result in the bard swarm kiting in the zone and therefore still would have resulted in another cry thread.

[cd288]

The complaint references kiting 60-70 mobs, this clearly demonstrates that there were plenty of opportunities for the zone to support both the existing groups and the bard. If the zone was crowded and tapped out of spawns than the bard would see there isn't even 25 mobs available and would either log out and come back later or find a different spot. Enforcing sharing is well and good, however, it would still result in the bard swarm kiting in the zone and therefore still would have resulted in another cry thread.

Think you're totally missing the point of this post overall. Most of the time the Bards are pulling mobs from camps. CoM pretty frequently has multiple camps occupied by groups. Bards roll in, grab anything a group hasn't cleared yet (even if the group is clearing with relatively good speed) and swarm it down. This is disruption, but the Bard knows that by the time a staff member could get to the petition the Bard will be done (not bashing the staff, it's hard to cover everything as an unpaid volunteer).

[Wakanda]

I tried pulling the unrest is an outdoor zone thing and got scolded by a GM when I was super new to p99, guessing same applies here :)

In my defense I wasn’t doing anything crazy, but ppl kept stealing mobs from our camp, so I finally logged on a higher level character and was like okay I’m going to camp some of these mobs in your camp then, and a GM showed up and was like what are you doing �� and I was like um it’s an outdoor zone

But like legit this high level dude was ksing a lot of our mobs, so I thought I was in the right

I still think he was in the wrong, but since I technically logged into another character and moved into his camp I was seen as in the wrong but I thought since it was an outdoor camp that it was okay

Also it turns out basement isn’t a single camp btw �� it’s like 3 diff camps if it actually gets disputed

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Elf laws lol

[Xer0]

Sadly some of the bards in COM can be an absolute nuisance, do not warn the zone when they are starting a swarm / take from area's groups are actively sourcing from.

Some though are the diamond in the rough and will warn when starting a swarm as well as when mobs are returning.


no one is impressed by their little OOC macro's. it's an idiotic practice and they need to keep it to large outdoor areas where they don't pose a t hread.

[grims]

Oh I gotcha and understand / respect it. Only stating that because its a courtesy I appreciate when I see it if they are going to engage in COM swarming

[Smoofers]

Think you're totally missing the point of this post overall. Most of the time the Bards are pulling mobs from camps. CoM pretty frequently has multiple camps occupied by groups. Bards roll in, grab anything a group hasn't cleared yet (even if the group is clearing with relatively good speed) and swarm it down. This is disruption, but the Bard knows that by the time a staff member could get to the petition the Bard will be done (not bashing the staff, it's hard to cover everything as an unpaid volunteer).

Imagine running and crying to the referees instead of handling your issue yourself.

[cd288]

Imagine running and crying to the referees instead of handling your issue yourself.

When did I say I wouldn't handle it myself? As usual your reading comprehension is terrible. Guessing you couldn't get into college.

And in fact, in other comments in this thread I've said I take matters into my own hands. That comment you quoted was about generally why Bards are fine committing zone disruption (but again I know it's hard for you to read).

[Jimjam]

Imagine running and crying to the referees instead of handling your issue yourself.

Oh, we got a fan of ice hockey here?

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Elf laws lol

[Stakorian]

Let's clear some things up.

Bards do not frequently take mobs from popular group camps. Most often groups are at Stables (far and away from the swarm location), Temple (same thing), Arena (the bard swarms on the north end and groups primarily occupy the south end), and Moat. Moat is the only camp where the swarm has a chance of picking up a few mobs. The majority of the mobs come from the 2nd and 3rd floor (usually solo'd by Necros and Enchanters) and in deep halls where no one goes.

The pull takes probably 4 minutes altogether, and there are only two small windows of danger. Danger which even the most trackball mouse using boomer can avoid. The clumping of the mobs, and the reaver after the swarm is complete.

Controlling the clumping of mobs is easy, and it only takes a minute or two to shuffle the mobs back and forth near the huts west of Arena. Informing groups that you are pulling is sufficient.

Then there is the reaver. And the bard literally just runs the reaver out towards the moat and then zones before the reaver is close to any groups. Only a moat group would have potential issue.

It seems that people simply have an irrational hate for easy leveling. I've been swarming and had people pull mobs through the swarm and then send a hundred tells about how someone in their group died because of the swarm after they killed me. I've been in CoM with only a stables group and myself, and they were all bitching in OOC and tells because some of the Moat mobs were being taken into my swarm. A group of four taking essentially the entire first floor of mobs from various camps and complaining about 3 mobs. I have also been in CoM with multiple groups, A Necro on the 2nd floor, an arena group, a stables group, and people soloing a few mobs in the front, and I swarmed the 3rd floor and moat with 0 issue.

If there is a moat group things get tricky, but mostly it's irrelevant. It is by far one of the safest and most manageable methods of swarming in a dungeon that has a near zero impact on groups.

Anyone mad, is just mad because you go from 59-60 in 10-11 pulls.

[zelld52]

Imagine running and crying to the referees instead of handling your issue yourself.

Tagging off of a bards kite is not allowed. I found out the hard way. In city of mist.

[BigChief]

Imagine running and crying to the referees instead of handling your issue yourself.

With your cartoon character.... yeah that is some brave shit

[BigChief]

With your cartoon character.... yeah that is some brave shit

Let's clear some things up.

Bards do not frequently take mobs from popular group camps. Most often groups are at Stables (far and away from the swarm location), Temple (same thing), Arena (the bard swarms on the north end and groups primarily occupy the south end), and Moat. Moat is the only camp where the swarm has a chance of picking up a few mobs. The majority of the mobs come from the 2nd and 3rd floor (usually solo'd by Necros and Enchanters) and in deep halls where no one goes.

The pull takes probably 4 minutes altogether, and there are only two small windows of danger. Danger which even the most trackball mouse using boomer can avoid. The clumping of the mobs, and the reaver after the swarm is complete.

Controlling the clumping of mobs is easy, and it only takes a minute or two to shuffle the mobs back and forth near the huts west of Arena. Informing groups that you are pulling is sufficient.

Then there is the reaver. And the bard literally just runs the reaver out towards the moat and then zones before the reaver is close to any groups. Only a moat group would have potential issue.

It seems that people simply have an irrational hate for easy leveling. I've been swarming and had people pull mobs through the swarm and then send a hundred tells about how someone in their group died because of the swarm after they killed me. I've been in CoM with only a stables group and myself, and they were all bitching in OOC and tells because some of the Moat mobs were being taken into my swarm. A group of four taking essentially the entire first floor of mobs from various camps and complaining about 3 mobs. I have also been in CoM with multiple groups, A Necro on the 2nd floor, an arena group, a stables group, and people soloing a few mobs in the front, and I swarmed the 3rd floor and moat with 0 issue.

If there is a moat group things get tricky, but mostly it's irrelevant. It is by far one of the safest and most manageable methods of swarming in a dungeon that has a near zero impact on groups.

Anyone mad, is just mad because you go from 59-60 in 10-11 pulls.

Nah, those swarms can cause LDs

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

Nah, those swarms can cause LDs

[Drueric]

Because it's the best exp for players who are good at the game. You should try it some time.
That is false. Bards are hired to power level, or they are doing it for their guildies/friends, and com is a good place to do it. I dont enjoy being in com when a bar is power leveling someone. They mess up and sometimes wipe everyone out. Granted they have 60 clerics in the zone who rez everyone, but it is still not cool.

[cd288]

Let's clear some things up.

Bards do not frequently take mobs from popular group camps.

Not saying you do when you play a Bard, but this is just totally incorrect. The majority of Bards that swarm in COM absolutely do this haha

[WarpathEQ]

Tagging off of a bards kite is not allowed. I found out the hard way. In city of mist.

Depends on the circumstances if the bard has an established kite of 25 or less mobs they are engaged on then 100% no it is not allowed to pull off the bard kite.

If the bard has a kite of more than 25 mobs and there are not other readily available mobs in the zone/area then CSR has ruled that it is allowed to pull excess mobs off the bard's kite.

[cd288]

Do it anyway. Most of the time that Bard is stealing spawns from the other camp. Not like they're going to petition you in that case.

[Ciderpress]

Depends on the circumstances if the bard has an established kite of 25 or less mobs they are engaged on then 100% no it is not allowed to pull off the bard kite.

If the bard has a kite of more than 25 mobs and there are not other readily available mobs in the zone/area then CSR has ruled that it is allowed to pull excess mobs off the bard's kite.

How is an observer supposed to know if a bard has 25 or 26 mobs?

It's obnoxious and pisses everyone off. The only thing douchier than swarming dungeons in the first place is getting defensive when normal players complain about it. Accept it as part of the deal. Want to swarm in a dungeon? Go for it. Also, everyone will think it's annoying and complain about it in perpetuity forever.

[NopeNopeNopeNope]

If you pull mobs off the bard’s kite, and the bard happens to die or zones or whatever, wouldn’t the clump come beat the brakes off you due to social aggro?

[PatChapp]

Yes you will social the whole kite. Salty bards will just zone and let you train yourself

[zelld52]

Depends on the circumstances if the bard has an established kite of 25 or less mobs they are engaged on then 100% no it is not allowed to pull off the bard kite.

If the bard has a kite of more than 25 mobs and there are not other readily available mobs in the zone/area then CSR has ruled that it is allowed to pull excess mobs off the bard's kite.

I thought it was more than 4… BUT CSR has told me that it is NOT okay to pull off of a bard kite

[Duik]

Bar-Dick.
Nuff said.

[Duik]

Once grouped, a bard kite would be difficult to discern how many it contained? Or am I missing something here. A swarm is a mess of mobs ghosting amongst each other. Maybe my machine/connection sucks.

[WarpathEQ]

I thought it was more than 4… BUT CSR has told me that it is NOT okay to pull off of a bard kite

The key distinction from communication I saw from CSR previously was the no other mobs around piece. Essentially the CSR was ruling that if they are taking 100% of the mobs available AND the kite exceeds 25 which is the max that any AoE in the game can hit than its acceptable to pull off the kite.

In addition to that, maybe fear plane is treated differently, but in my experience its been commonplace in fear at least over the last year that guilds are pulling mobs off competing guilds kites that exceed 25.

[WarpathEQ]

Once grouped, a bard kite would be difficult to discern how many it contained? Or am I missing something here. A swarm is a mess of mobs ghosting amongst each other. Maybe my machine/connection sucks.

Good question, I'm used to seeing this in practice mostly in fear plane and executing it on another bard, since bards have tracking and the range is so short if you're in close proximity to a kiting bard you can fairly easily gauge the size of the kite.

To your point that would be much harder to guage as a random class trying to exp in a zone, especially one that has multiple floors and could pick up mobs on the Z axis. Although I think in general if you're spending a bunch of time in a zone grinding exp you probably have a fairly good sense of the amount of spawns in different areas and how many mobs were up (especially as a puller) to better gauge how big of a kite a swarmer would pick up.

Either way my advice to never have a camp dispute in your life is:

Know how many mobs you can kill before repops in the zone your exping in
Clear that many mobs and know your repop timers
As soon as something spawns pull and kill it


Even the most competitive camp contesting turd bags in the game will struggle to take any mobs from your camp if you're on top of them as they spawn and they will get so discouraged it won't take long for them to leave. Its extremely rare that someone would attempt to contest your mobs more than 15 mins (at an exp camp, I'm aware there are toxic camps in the game for high end loot that are highly contested 24/7).

[zelld52]

How do you establish a camp in let’s say the arena of city of mist if a bard is swarming? I’ve run into this before- stables and temple camped. Entrance clear of mobs. Bard kiting LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CAMP in zone - swarm of 50+ mobs. Group sits and waits for 20 minutes for the kite to finish and another 5-20 minutes for respawns. Yay, fun. Thanks bards

[WarpathEQ]

How do you establish a camp in let’s say the arena of city of mist if a bard is swarming? I’ve run into this before- stables and temple camped. Entrance clear of mobs. Bard kiting LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CAMP in zone - swarm of 50+ mobs. Group sits and waits for 20 minutes for the kite to finish and another 5-20 minutes for respawns. Yay, fun. Thanks bards

I mean...at that point its someone else's camp. No different than how you establish camp anywhere that's already actively camped...just don't. Find another spot or come back at another time. That's what I would do. Especially in a world where the population of people in exp zones is a tiny fraction of what it was like on live.

Your alternatives are:
A) communicate with that person, specify the mobs you would like to camp and ask permission if you can take over those spawns so you are working together with them and avoiding conflict.
B) contest the camp since at they can't technically claim all the spawns so to speak since camp rules dictate either line of sight or single spawn depending on zone type. At best you can probably agro as many mobs as you can CC, pull them to a single area and CC them while you kill them so they don't get pulled in when the bard starts their next swarm. If the bard is good at what they do this probably plays out like my prior post with most people giving up after only getting a couple mobs on each round of re-pops and deeming it better to just move or come back later.
C) wait for a spot to open up in the temple or stables camp and join them

[cd288]

How do you establish a camp in let’s say the arena of city of mist if a bard is swarming? I’ve run into this before- stables and temple camped. Entrance clear of mobs. Bard kiting LITERALLY EVERY OTHER CAMP in zone - swarm of 50+ mobs. Group sits and waits for 20 minutes for the kite to finish and another 5-20 minutes for respawns. Yay, fun. Thanks bards

The rule there is the same as if it's another group using/someone soloing multiple camps.

As the new arriving group, you're entitled to a camp. You communicate with the person/people already there and discuss which camp they want to give you. They then have to claim a single camp themselves that you can't pull from, and any other camp(s) are free for all between your group and the soloer/other group.

[Swish]

As the new arriving group, you're entitled to a camp. You communicate with the person/people already there and discuss which camp they want to give you. They then have to claim a single camp themselves that you can't pull from, and any other camp(s) are free for all between your group and the soloer/other group.

Exactly this. If anyone remembers the Chardok AOE groups this is how they got themselves in trouble. We came in and said we wanted to move through and camp further in and they refused, then trained us on the next pull. The puller got a suspension and the group had to disperse.

So if a bard wants to come in and own the zone, that's not going to happen unless you let them get away with it. Ask them what they're camping, tell them what you want which isn't the camp they're at...and if there's negative consequences after that then file a petition with the elf court magistrates (video evidence helps).

[Sirban]

this thread again

[eisley]

Exactly this. If anyone remembers the Chardok AOE groups this is how they got themselves in trouble. We came in and said we wanted to move through and camp further in and they refused, then trained us on the next pull. The puller got a suspension and the group had to disperse.

So if a bard wants to come in and own the zone, that's not going to happen unless you let them get away with it. Ask them what they're camping, tell them what you want which isn't the camp they're at...and if there's negative consequences after that then file a petition with the elf court magistrates (video evidence helps).

i mean, you're not wrong, but let's be honest, the entire point of the entire scheme was to get chardok aoe nerfed from the game, not out of any genuine desire to "camp deeper inside chardok".

it is what it is, but they (i dont know if you were in the group that ended it) were pretty transparent about their goal from the beginning.

it was a shame. chardok aoe was fun. but hey, so was unrooted dragons, recharging, killing dragons with under 100 people, and about 20 other things i could list.

[cd288]

i mean, you're not wrong, but let's be honest, the entire point of the entire scheme was to get chardok aoe nerfed from the game, not out of any genuine desire to "camp deeper inside chardok".

it is what it is, but they (i dont know if you were in the group that ended it) were pretty transparent about their goal from the beginning.

it was a shame. chardok aoe was fun. but hey, so was unrooted dragons, recharging, killing dragons with under 100 people, and about 20 other things i could list.

That's not the fault of the group that did that. That's the fault of the AOE group being unreasonable aholes who took the bait.

[Duik]

Funny.
Arseholes defending arseholes and being Elf Lawyered into doubling down.

Some find wrecking AOE groups fun. Equal === Equal.

You want classic? Classic is 1 full group pulling 4 spawns in Mistmoore and talkin shit. Taking ages to lvl but "playing" as intended.
Classic.

Min/maxing came later by neckbeards whos mummys made them pancakes and strawberries with mountain dew.
Still classic I suppose, but just antisocial.

My levelling system is superiour to yours, therefore I get to define your fun.

[Ciderpress]

chardok aoe was dumb and bad and I'm glad it's gone.

like, it's definitly fun to cheese content in everquest, that's the whole appeal of twinking new alts. I can respect that. but when you cheese too hard, it ruins the social fabric of the game and playing at all starts to feel pointless and arbitrary. If you're gonna allow chardok aoe, why not just have everyone start at 60 and dispense with it? who even wants to see these old dated graphics, let's just play EQ via spreadsheet. It's all just numbers and dice rolls ultimately ya know?

[eisley]

chardok aoe was dumb and bad and I'm glad it's gone.

like, it's definitly fun to cheese content in everquest, that's the whole appeal of twinking new alts. I can respect that. but when you cheese too hard, it ruins the social fabric of the game and playing at all starts to feel pointless and arbitrary. If you're gonna allow chardok aoe, why not just have everyone start at 60 and dispense with it? who even wants to see these old dated graphics, let's just play EQ via spreadsheet. It's all just numbers and dice rolls ultimately ya know?

I don't know follow your logic. Chardok AoE was just fun and effective. I did every role required (pulling, cleric, enchanter, and wizard) and had a pretty fun time all around. It was also classic (technically) and resulted in yet another hamfisted non-classic change with the 25 pbae cap which had unintended side effects like making AoEing Plane of Fear a pain in the ass.

Some people derive enjoyment from this game from seeing what they can pull off with small numbers and/or unique, well thought out preparation and strategy. I think back to things like soloing or duoing various things thanks to Puppet Strings and miss them, or pulling dragons to zonelines, because they were fun. It's odd how almost all of the non-classic changes are things I would describe as resulting in Not Fun.

You equate Chardok AoE to just starting at 60, but I fail to see how you draw that conclusion. It's not like Chardok AoE was super easy nor super fast, it took decent coordination and the exp was good but not like just instantly starting at 60. Nowhere near. Hell, you needed like level 46 or something to even start doing it.

[eisley]

That's not the fault of the group that did that. That's the fault of the AOE group being unreasonable aholes who took the bait.

I certainly can't argue with you there.

[Krinkill]

Why did they not just make chardok AOE a suspend first time ban second time offense instead of the nerf?

[cd288]

Why did they not just make chardok AOE a suspend first time ban second time offense instead of the nerf?

I'm assuming if they had a ton of CSR resources they might have done this. But with limited resources it's easier to just add a mechanic that makes people unable to fully disrupt the zone in that way, such that it becomes way less efficient so people just stop doing it and therefore the CSR issues go away.

[Jimjam]

Why did they not just make chardok AOE a suspend first time ban second time offense instead of the nerf?

There is nothing wrong with AoE groups. What is wrong is training stuff all over the place, causing chaos and interfering with other players camps. Except in raiding, maybe?

[aazron]

Nerf their AOE songs to 8 at once, and give them double attack so they are wanted in groups.

[bcbrown]

Nerf their AOE songs to 8 at once, and give them double attack so they are wanted in groups.

Man, I would love that.

[Swish]

Nerf their AOE songs to 8 at once, and give them double attack so they are wanted in groups.

not classic

[Ciderpress]

Nerf their AOE songs to 8 at once, and give them double attack so they are wanted in groups.

They're already capped at 25, but you can still pull as many as you want and just run in a circle casting your mana-free pbaoe dot over and over and eventually the mobs all die, just takes longer. Same principle that lets druids "quad" as many mobs as they want as long as they all run the same speed and the druid has a lumi staff.

[cd288]

Nerf their AOE songs to 8 at once, and give them double attack so they are wanted in groups.

IMO Bards are already wanted in groups. If you've ever been in a group with a great Bard puller then you know what I'm talking about. Massive pulls, AOE mez, and the group takes them down 1 or 2 at a time. Super useful in certain contested dungeons if there are camps open that everyone is pulling from.

[aazron]

It's a non-class fix to a non-classic issue.... Most groups I've been with end up looking at me sideways and asking if I've ever swarmed dot,dot,dot....

[branamil]

No one is wanting bards for their melee attack LOL

[WarpathEQ]

No one is wanting bards for their melee attack LOL

Speak for yourself, battle barding is the ultimate end game! They may not want the dps but they love the dance of the blade and song of the deep seas!

[Jabober]

Dang bro, this post got my bard banned for swarming all of KC, thanks man

[Balur]

Nerf their AOE songs to 8 at once, and give them double attack so they are wanted in groups.

I always wanted to be able to have a sword in one hand and one of those drums from Karate Kid 2 in the other.

[Duik]

Dang bro, this post got my bard banned for swarming all of KC, thanks man

Lolocaust.
Did that interrupt your xping2 session?

Sorry (not sorry) we dont got swarm. :×)

[Jabober]

Lolocaust.
Did that interrupt your xping2 session?

Sorry (not sorry) we dont got swarm. :×)

All good, I got unbanned and then pulled KC, sleeper, black burrow, rivervale, naxxramus, Oblock and San Bernardino and got level 67 in one pull. We back baby!

[Duik]

Delusion is great. Im assuming you are a septic. You sound like one.

Have at it lil one, im sure your (step) mommy is proud. Then you can get back to bring breastfed at the family christmas party.

[Jabober]

Delusion is great. Im assuming you are a septic. You sound like one.

Have at it lil one, im sure your (step) mommy is proud. Then you can get back to bring breastfed at the family christmas party.

Crazy thing is I don’t even have a bard that can swarm

[Duik]

Ok. Delusion it is then. Goodo!

[cd288]

Great news to see that they changed the rules this week. Will make some dungeons (such as COM and Velks in particular) way nicer for groups.

[onmove_broke]

Finally, but looks like lots left for the new servers already.