Warrior Kick / Monk Flying Kick / Rogue Backstab Calculation

[Namsaknoi]

I am posting here instead of bug forum because I'm not trying to dispute or request changes but just to discuss if I am calculating correctly

For delay, I just used stopwatch to time the refresh timer with all haste items and buffs/songs removed, on P99, don't think they differ on live, and there could be latency discrepancy since general consensus for Backstab delay seem to be '10 sec' whereas I have it at 10.5

Is below correct?

Warrior Kick
Damage:5
Delay: 85 (8.5sec)
Max Damage: (Kick skill 210 + Strength 255)/100 * damage 5 = 23.25, rounded down to 23
Have chance to stun after 55

Monk Flying Kick
Damage: 30
Delay: 90 (9.0sec)
Max Damage: (Flying Kick skill 225 + Strength 255)/100 * damage 30 = 144.00
With Inner Fire it is 288, Thunderkick is somewhere in low 200s, not quite double but somewhere half way up similar to other critical hits (but not crippling blow or deadly strike)

Rogue Backstab
Delay: 105 (10.5sec)
Base Damage: Weapon damage 15 * (2+(Backstab skill 225 * 0.02))+ Damage bonus (Level 60 - 25)/3 = 109.17
Max Damage Multiplier: ((Piercing 252 + Strength 255)/100) * Base Damage = 553.48, rounded down to 553
Double Attack is applied after 55
On P99 it seem to be somewhere south of 530, and 500+ damage happens rarely, but I remember rogues having 553, or 1106 with Duelist, or 1106 + 1106 for Duelist + Double Attack on their signature was the trend at that time until 16 damage piercer appeared late Luclin, and max damage happened rather frequently on live

Some side notes:
Monk 1hb/2hb/h2h skill cap was 252/252/246, not 252/252/252, h2h increased to 252 late Velious
Rogue piercing/1hs/1hb cap was 252/250/240, not 250/250/250, 1hb increased to 250 in PoP
Warrior weapon skill caps are correct on P99

Max damage calculation should use weapon skills instead of Offense skill for calculation, and no '-75' applies, there seem to be some debate on Game Mechanics section and currently accepted is 'Offense skill' + 'no -75', but this should be incorrect. Offense should only count towards atk calculation, while weapon skill counts towards max damage calculation as well as atk calculation, which would also be more logical

[zelld52]

[Tue Jan 09 09:39:01 2024] You backstab Derakor the Vindicator for 1106 points of damage.

[zelld52]

Your numbers are right. Max backstab is 553. With duelist, Max backstab is 1106.

[Namsaknoi]

Woa thanks for quick reply, your log is from P99? Haven't played for awhile but I remember when playing a couple years ago when grinding days and days and hours and hours with 255 str and max skills I don't think I ever saw 553 on P99. Just a ton of the min backstab 120 damage which was far more frequent than what I remember on live.

[cd288]

Woa thanks for quick reply, your log is from P99? Haven't played for awhile but I remember when playing a couple years ago when grinding days and days and hours and hours with 255 str and max skills I don't think I ever saw 553 on P99. Just a ton of the min backstab 120 damage which was far more frequent than what I remember on live.

Wouldn't the specific mob and level difference between you and the mob have a lot of impact on this/the RNG?

[Jimjam]

Wouldn't the specific mob and level difference between you and the mob have a lot of impact on this/the RNG?

Mob ac/attack is very differently tuned on p99.

On live basically nothing (except AoW?) had an AC of 600+ until Plane of Tactics. And even then it was just that one zone.

[Namsaknoi]

Luclin also had a lot of 'stone' mobs that had high ac also and yea it got more serious during PoP, but you will eventually log one of your 553 after a few fights. On P99 the cap seem to be somewhere in 510s or 520s and it happens really rare, almost screenshot worthy, double backstabs with identical damage is also very rare on P99, my assumption is zelld52's log line is just manually typed humor to show 1106.

[Namsaknoi]

Oh and to add to that, triple backstab is rather common occurrence on P99 (albeit with three really random damages), I have a few screenshot of it, it never happened on live, someone would proudly have it screenshotted it for some sort of hall of fame on the safehouse, or any other forums if it ever happened. Quad damage with Tranquil Staff happens time to time as well, I don't think it is due to latency or riposte, I pay a lot of attention to that. On live triple damage was almost a myth even with all the server updates regarding monk's 'new triple damage chance' few times during Velious and Luclin. I get triple damage with warrior on P99 time to time as well, 1h and/or 2h, on live it was also impossible for Warrior until Luclin and the AAs.

[7thGate]

It is 553 on P99. If I look at my archived log file from 2019->2023, I have 489 instances of someone backstabbing for 553. I have 250111 instances of someone backstabbing someone, for about a 0.2% max backstab damage hit. It is a little bit better than this, I just searched for lines with "backstab" so will get like text from people with backstab in their name and NPC backstabs and stuff too.

IIRC the damage bucket code is kind of complicated, but I believe you basically are rolling a weighted 20 sized die to get one of 20 different damage interval numbers for any attack. You and your opponent roll an attack and AC roll, and subtract the AC roll from the Attack roll. The difference is divided by the average of AC+ATK, rounded to the nearest integer and added to the offset from 10 on the 20 sided die.

If your ATK is not sufficiently high relative to the opponent's AC, you can't reach the top damage intervals. I've seen this on AoW, where we had Yetarr swinging at hit with like 1000 attacks and only 17 different damage numbers, because his attack is too low to be 10x the average between the attack and AC even if the AC roll is 0 and the Atk roll is near maxed. Without high attack buffs, if attacking a high AC target, it can be impossible or exceedingly unlikely to reach the highest damage intervals.

Looking at my logs, by far the most common band of 553 backstabs I had was during a lengthy Halls of Testing situation where I brought two stacks of emeralds and asked a Shaman to Avatar me continually so I could see how high I could push my DPS. Its one of the few times I have had the full epic bard/ranger/avatar +ATK package.

[Sun Mar 19 21:54:30 2023] You backstab a tigerclaw racnar for 553 points of damage.
[Sun Mar 19 21:54:30 2023] You have slain a tigerclaw racnar!
[Sun Mar 19 21:54:45 2023] You say out of character, '/GU A tigerclaw racnar in 121s, 47161 @390 | Jayya 12875 | Cained 6180 | Mackn 6034 | Kaelton 5598 | Barbarisater 5067 | Darstan 4858 | Perridot 2982 | Evolaa 2497 | Zobekab 559 | Lebtik 511'

[7thGate]

There is more to it though, I have more than 20 different damage numbers in my backstabs vs. AoW. Not entirely sure what else is happening though.

Max backstab vs. AoW is 442 outside of duelist in 266 attempts, with 121 hitting for the minimum of 120, which is an example of the AC skew though, if an extreme one. AoW might have the second highest AC in the game behind the Kael banker, at least that I know about.

[Vivitron]

Luclin also had a lot of 'stone' mobs that had high ac also and yea it got more serious during PoP, but you will eventually log one of your 553 after a few fights. On P99 the cap seem to be somewhere in 510s or 520s and it happens really rare, almost screenshot worthy, double backstabs with identical damage is also very rare on P99, my assumption is zelld52's log line is just manually typed humor to show 1106.

1106 is definitely possible under duelist. I parsed my logs looking for the top backstab a while back and that was the max. I have never witnessed a double 1106 though. I want to see one; I even started offering a plat bounty to my guildmates if they can get a double 1106 on a raid target since March and nobody has tried to collect yet.

[7thGate]

If the numbers from my logs are representative (which they could not be for various reasons), it would be something like a 1/500 for a backstab attack to do max damage. With about 1.6 backstabs average per attempt and 3 backstabs per duelist, you end up with about a 1% chance of having a max damage backstab when you use duelist, so most rogues will get one eventually if they've played for a while and are duelisting frequently.

Getting double backstabs needs you to do 2x 1 in 500 chances at the same time, and also pass the ~60% double attack check. That's something like 1 in 416,000 attempts; its possible that has never happened on this server, or only a few times.

[Naethyn]

[Wed May 29 08:17:20 2024] You kick Neordla for 45 points of damage.
[Tue Jun 25 21:27:35 2024] You kick Derakor the Vindicator for 54 points of damage.
[Tue Jul 09 16:12:33 2024] You kick a vampiric ancille for 27 points of damage.
[Fri Jul 26 11:26:28 2024] You kick an ancient guardian for 27 points of damage.
[Sun Aug 18 12:38:44 2024] You kick a crimson claw hatchling for 25 points of damage.

[Vivitron]

If the numbers from my logs are representative (which they could not be for various reasons), it would be something like a 1/500 for a backstab attack to do max damage. With about 1.6 backstabs average per attempt and 3 backstabs per duelist, you end up with about a 1% chance of having a max damage backstab when you use duelist, so most rogues will get one eventually if they've played for a while and are duelisting frequently.

Getting double backstabs needs you to do 2x 1 in 500 chances at the same time, and also pass the ~60% double attack check. That's something like 1 in 416,000 attempts; its possible that has never happened on this server, or only a few times.

Limiting my parse to just one rogue I know to be meticulous about getting buffed and only parsed at 60: he had 948 backstabs that were 553 or 1106 out of 54123 attempts (including misses); that's 1 in 57. If you throw out mobs that you can't 553 I wonder if he would get to 1 in 50, but I don't have the patience to do that right now. So maybe more like 1 in 5,000 duelists for the top rogues to get a 2x1106 double backstab.

[Vivitron]

I forgot, up to 3 attempts per duelist. So maybe like 1 in 1,500 duelists for a double 1106 if you're pushing for it.

[Zuranthium]

[Wed May 29 08:17:20 2024] You kick Neordla for 45 points of damage.
[Tue Jun 25 21:27:35 2024] You kick Derakor the Vindicator for 54 points of damage.
[Tue Jul 09 16:12:33 2024] You kick a vampiric ancille for 27 points of damage.
[Fri Jul 26 11:26:28 2024] You kick an ancient guardian for 27 points of damage.
[Sun Aug 18 12:38:44 2024] You kick a crimson claw hatchling for 25 points of damage.

Hmm, max kick damage is 23 according to the posted formula, so something is wrong.

[Namsaknoi]

Hmm, max kick damage is 23 according to the posted formula, so something is wrong.

My source may not be accurate with that '5 damage' for kick, need to keep looking. For Flying Kick it may be correct though, I don't think I have seen anything higher than 144/288 with disc

[Namsaknoi]

[Wed May 29 08:17:20 2024] You kick Neordla for 45 points of damage.
[Tue Jun 25 21:27:35 2024] You kick Derakor the Vindicator for 54 points of damage.
[Tue Jul 09 16:12:33 2024] You kick a vampiric ancille for 27 points of damage.
[Fri Jul 26 11:26:28 2024] You kick an ancient guardian for 27 points of damage.
[Sun Aug 18 12:38:44 2024] You kick a crimson claw hatchling for 25 points of damage.

Thanks for the logs, can I check if these are not crit hits and/or without disc?

[Namsaknoi]

I guess the likely scenario is that Warrior base Kick damage is actually 6, where max damage is 27.9, rounded down to 27, and that 54 was with Felstrike (disc), and 45 was with either crit or Felstrike.