URN - Urn Resistance Network

[berbax]

Hello Again, Folks!

About a week ago, I posted a forum thread proposing a player agreement to change the DS camp to a random roll: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433572

While I still believe the random roll may be the best fit for Green, the proposal raised concerns from Blue's URN group, who are worried that such a change might disrupt a system that already works well for them. In light of this, I’m running a new poll to gauge interest in implementing the URN system on Green. Below is a summary of the URN system’s rules:

1. Claiming the Camp: To start earning DKP/hours, clear the pather and two golems. Stay active, especially if others are watching.

2. Group Size Limit: A maximum of 4 players can earn DKP/hours at a time. Additional members may join briefly for special circumstances, like securing a difficult DS kill.

3. Loot Rights: The player with the most DKP/hours has priority for the Urn. They can still claim loot even if not actively earning DKP at that time. Ideally, looting should occur at the DS kill.

4. Kindness: Treat each other well and build connections. Also, try to be courteous to opposing groups.

5. Camp Availability: If the camp is full, post in the Camp Rep List. If there are fewer than 4 players, you can join and start earning DKP.

6. DKP Reset: After receiving an Urn, your DKP resets to zero, and you can earn more in future camps. Others' DKP continues until they get an Urn.

7. Using the Urn: Once you earn an Urn, you can use it as you wish—use, sell, or split with the group.

8. Camp Reps: Notify others when you need a replacement. Start looking for a rep in advance, and use member chat if needed.

9. Voice Communication: During a DS kill, you must be in voice chat, even if you can’t speak. This is crucial for smaller groups.

10. Camp Start Time: Don’t start the camp too early if it risks holding it without adequate group support. You won’t earn DKP/hours if this becomes a problem.

Key Differences: The Blue server’s URN system uses DKP and bot integration, with large player involvement making it easy for anyone to join.

My main concern with implementing this on Green is whether those who have primarily controlled the camp would be willing to adopt this system. The success of the URN system relies on widespread participation, not just a few controlling groups. On Blue, they were united in the change, but Green tends to operate more independently, especially at the top guild level.

The poll is open, so feel free to toss your $0.02 in!

Edit: If you are part of the blue server URN group, please reframe from voting on the poll is it skews the results.

[Duik]

LMAO.

Didn't read.

[zelld52]

There used to be something similar for Hierophant's Cloaks back in late Kunark.

My advice: give up on the urn. Or join the guild that holds the camp.

[sirdemonic3]

Are you trying to implement this as a rule change or just your own urn group? I think it's perfectly solid rules for your own group and falls within the official rules as well. But if trying to force the other guilds and groups onto it seems might be hard to do.

[Toxigen]

pras berbax and URN!

[berbax]

Are you trying to implement this as a rule change or just your own urn group? I think it's perfectly solid rules for your own group and falls within the official rules as well. But if trying to force the other guilds and groups onto it seems might be hard to do.

No rule change, simply gauging interest in a server wide open group that follows the same precedent as blue's URN system.

[Brool]

Perhaps I am bias....but a group that lets anyone join from any guild and promotes community in helping everyone finish this terrible questline... based purely on merit...

10/10 - we just hit our 240th URN for people on Blue!

In 2085 when the merger happens you will all be welcomed into URN :P

[PatChapp]

I welcome it,seems like a fine option for some people. More people fighting over dru camp is always welcome.
May just want to amend the rules to keeping the pather down,as that's all required on green unless officially contested.

[Ripqozko]

Urn sucks

[fortior]

While I still believe the random roll may be the best fit for Green, the proposal raised concerns from Blue's URN group, who are worried that such a change might disrupt a system that already works well for them

bullshit, people thought it was just a better idea than your roll. agree with URN, but don't want your dishonest ass anywhere near player agreement proposals. no vote.

[berbax]

bullshit, people thought it was just a better idea than your roll. agree with URN, but don't want your dishonest ass anywhere near player agreement proposals. no vote.

Fortior, I’m not sure where your hostility is coming from, but there’s no need for it. I’m simply gauging interest in different options, including the URN system. Disagree if you want, but let’s keep it respectful. There’s no place for personal attacks here.

[Zuranthium]

Best solution - change the game so that things like this are on far shorter respawns and involve dynamic spawn mechanics, with NPC's that ramp up in number/difficulty based on the "excess" nearby player population, and with NPC's that tag themselves directly onto excess players, instead of just sitting there staring at them with super small and exploitable aggro ranges.

[berbax]

Best solution - change the game so that things like this are on far shorter respawns and involve dynamic spawn mechanics, with NPC's that ramp up in number/difficulty based on the "excess" nearby player population, and with NPC's that tag themselves directly onto excess players, instead of just sitting there staring at them with super small and exploitable aggro ranges.

I 100% agree with this sentiment. This is exactly the kind of change the original EverQuest developers might have implemented to address these issues. Although they eventually went with instances as a solution (primarily). Unfortunately, it seems that the P99 team either lacks the capability to make such changes or prefers to leave these matters to the community to manage. As much as we might want to see dynamic and responsive game mechanics, it looks like we have to work within the systems and community we have.

[Duik]

EQ is just an electronic sweatshop.
Never gonna remove the sweat.

[berbax]

EQ is just an electronic sweatshop.
Never gonna remove the sweat.

Actually, EQ’s developers implemented several changes over the years to reduce the issues of camp control and monopolization, including instancing, dynamic spawns, tasks/expeditions, loot lockouts, spawn rate changes, and other systems that made the game more accessible. However, this poll is about finding a solution within the framework of P99, specifically whether the URN system from Blue would be a good fit for Green.

[RobotGraveyard]

Actually, EQ’s developers implemented several changes over the years to reduce the issues of camp control and monopolization, including instancing, dynamic spawns, tasks/expeditions, loot lockouts, spawn rate changes, and other systems that made the game more accessible. However, this poll is about finding a solution within the framework of P99, specifically whether the URN system from Blue would be a good fit for Green.

Okay...

[Zuranthium]

Camp monopolization is not something that existed in EQ in the first place. The play nice policy dictated that spawns must be shared, and before that it was DPS race. Although the problem remains that some NPC's have absolutely absurd respawn times.

[bcbrown]

Fortior, I’m not sure where your hostility is coming from, but there’s no need for it. I’m simply gauging interest in different options, including the URN system. Disagree if you want, but let’s keep it respectful. There’s no place for personal attacks here.

I gotta say, as someone with no stake in DS camp rules, you've completely trashed your credibility on this.

You started off in that first thread talking about how you were a "dedicated solo artist player", making it sound like you were proposing changes just so anyone (like you) could have a fair shake at attempting a solo artist challenge. Later you admit you already got your solo kill. Reading between the lines it sure seems like you just want the loot but are afraid to admit to such a crass motivation.

When people responded, pointing out reasonable objections to your proposal, you replied with passive aggressive "thank you for your feedback" BS. The fact that you started off whining to GMs and CSR is a red flag to me.

When people pointed out that Blue solved a similar problem with URN, you initially dismissed the idea. Then you said you were "investigating" the idea, and then you made this thread, where you passive-aggressively pre-emptively shat on the idea:


While I still believe the random roll may be the best fit for Green, the proposal raised concerns from Blue's URN group, who are worried that such a change might disrupt a system that already works well for them.

Bullshit. I didn't see a single post raising that fear.


My main concern with implementing this on Green is whether those who have primarily controlled the camp would be willing to adopt this system. The success of the URN system relies on widespread participation, not just a few controlling groups. On Blue, they were united in the change, but Green tends to operate more independently, especially at the top guild level.

Again, bullshit. Compare this weak-ass salesmanship with Brool's far more charismatic announcement, where he:
* addresses the WHY for joining URN - get a chance to earn an urn if you've been frozen out by farm crews
* makes it a fait accompli - he's already doing this, get onboard if you'd like
* has a call to action - message him and you can join!
* makes it time sensitive - recruitment is initially capped, so don't delay

To recap, you're a shitty salesperson shitting on your own proposal. You provide no call to action. You don't demonstrate any critical mass supporting you. When people push back on your ideas you either quibble with them or respond with passive-aggressive pablum. You've been so bad at explaining the "why" for making a change that it's hard to escape the suspicion that this whole thing is in service of your own greed for an expensive MQ item.

If I ever get sweaty enough to want to camp DS, I'd like an URN-like system. But I sure wouldn't want you involved in any way in the running of such a system.

[berbax]

I gotta say, as someone with no stake in DS camp rules, you've completely trashed your credibility on this.

You started off in that first thread talking about how you were a "dedicated solo artist player", making it sound like you were proposing changes just so anyone (like you) could have a fair shake at attempting a solo artist challenge. Later you admit you already got your solo kill. Reading between the lines it sure seems like you just want the loot but are afraid to admit to such a crass motivation.

When people responded, pointing out reasonable objections to your proposal, you replied with passive aggressive "thank you for your feedback" BS. The fact that you started off whining to GMs and CSR is a red flag to me.

When people pointed out that Blue solved a similar problem with URN, you initially dismissed the idea. Then you said you were "investigating" the idea, and then you made this thread, where you passive-aggressively pre-emptively shat on the idea:



Bullshit. I didn't see a single post raising that fear.



Again, bullshit. Compare this weak-ass salesmanship with Brool's far more charismatic announcement, where he:
* addresses the WHY for joining URN - get a chance to earn an urn if you've been frozen out by farm crews
* makes it a fait accompli - he's already doing this, get onboard if you'd like
* has a call to action - message him and you can join!
* makes it time sensitive - recruitment is initially capped, so don't delay

To recap, you're a shitty salesperson shitting on your own proposal. You provide no call to action. You don't demonstrate any critical mass supporting you. When people push back on your ideas you either quibble with them or respond with passive-aggressive pablum. You've been so bad at explaining the "why" for making a change that it's hard to escape the suspicion that this whole thing is in service of your own greed for an expensive MQ item.

If I ever get sweaty enough to want to camp DS, I'd like an URN-like system. But I sure wouldn't want you involved in any way in the running of such a system.

bcbrown, I’ll be blunt. I’ve explained the "why" behind this proposal so many times it's practically on loop, and I’m sorry if you see responding calmly as being "passive-aggressive." It seems you’ve paraphrased or misinterpreted much of what I’ve said to fit a narrative you disagree with. The only part you’re close to being right about is that I may not have explicitly posted about my concern that GG/Kingdom/Castle might not join together in an open group like URN. In fact, one of those members who initially expressed interest in the system came here and voted "No" purely out of spite.

As for your claim that I "dismissed" the URN idea, unfortunately that's incorrect. I initially focused on either changing it to a roll or list system because those were the options I was most familiar with (as in they had been done before, made sense, and aligned with other parts of the quest chain). However, when the URN system was suggested, I decided to investigate it further. Now, creating a poll to gauge interest is a necessary step in understanding if the URN system would actually work on Green. That’s not "shitting on" the idea—it’s called doing due diligence.

Lastly, I’m not here to sell the URN system, I’m gauging interest to see if it’s even a viable option before moving forward with anything like Brool’s announcement on Blue. You can’t "sell" something you don’t have yet.

[berbax]

I gotta say, as someone with no stake in DS camp rules, you've completely trashed your credibility on this.

You started off in that first thread talking about how you were a "dedicated solo artist player", making it sound like you were proposing changes just so anyone (like you) could have a fair shake at attempting a solo artist challenge. Later you admit you already got your solo kill. Reading between the lines it sure seems like you just want the loot but are afraid to admit to such a crass motivation.

Whoops, I guess I overlooked this part while focusing on the bigger issues. I probably could have framed my post better and separated it from my solo artist experience, but there’s no need to "read between the lines" here—I’d take an urn if I could get one. That said, the change isn’t just about me; it affects everyone, including those going after the solo artist challenge. It feels like you’re searching for something disingenuous here, but my focus is on implementing a change that benefits everyone. You even mentioned that you’re not "sweaty enough" to go for it, and I’d argue that as of the last ~45 days, even if you were "sweaty enough," you couldn’t attempt it anyway because the camp is being monopolized 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Edit: Unless, of course, you’re "sweaty enough" to leave your guild and join Castle. But for some of us, it’s more about the people than the gear (okay, now that's passive aggressive).

[Duik]

berbax. Has anyone messaged you wanting to do as you suggest yet?
Discouraging people who you know wont agree is the biggest red flag there is.
You say you want community engagement, has anyone engaged with you as yet? Enough to overrun the existing sweatpants brigade?
If not, you lose.

[zelld52]

When people responded, pointing out reasonable objections to your proposal, you replied with passive aggressive "thank you for your feedback" BS.

jesus christ bcbrown who hurt you? you got so triggered by someone being polite

[berbax]

berbax. Has anyone messaged you wanting to do as you suggest yet?
Discouraging people who you know wont agree is the biggest red flag there is.
You say you want community engagement, has anyone engaged with you as yet? Enough to overrun the existing sweatpants brigade?
If not, you lose.

Yes, you’re correct—the URN system needs broad support to be successful. I’ve had quite a few people speak with me about it, and there’s definitely an overall sentiment that supports changes to the current system, though not everyone agrees on the exact solution. While the "sweatpants brigade" may be vocal, I believe there’s a larger group in favor of change. I’m still gauging whether there’s enough support specifically for the URN system, versus just doing a roll.

In terms of the roll: if you look at the previous thread/poll and consider the impact of Blue’s URN votes, the disparity in favor of "yes" becomes even larger. This gap widens further when you factor in how many "no" votes are coming from members of Good Guys DS kill groups or Castle, who currently have benefitted from the existing system (or lack thereof).

Edit: Also, to be clear, my goal here is to get a feel for how many people haven’t messaged me and are interested in doing it. I think ultimately whatever change we go with cannot interfere with whatever Blue is doing.

[Jimjam]

jesus christ bcbrown who hurt you? you got so triggered by someone being polite

I stereotype gnome players as desperate addicts.

Enchanter players I like to stereotype as scheming, manipulative, deceptive stormcrows. Often they’ll be two faced - publicly sweet but pulling strings on those of power or using tricksy language to turn subtly discussion to their favour.

Obviously not everyone fits stereotypes, but lots of people reinforce them.

Totally irrelevant to this thread of course.

[fortior]

jesus christ bcbrown who hurt you? you got so triggered by someone being polite

If you think berbax has ever been polite you are, and I mean this in the kindest way possible, a credulous moron. Basically someone who only interacts with the individual words someone says instead of what they're actually telling you

[Infectious]

Anybody who would like to help Berbax reach his solo artist challenge for a 3rd time? He pinky promises to keep accurate dkp and willnt be playing his character with another person to over inflate his dkp.

[berbax]

Anybody who would like to help Berbax reach his solo artist challenge for a 3rd time? He pinky promises to keep accurate dkp and willnt be playing his character with another person to over inflate his dkp.

If you think berbax has ever been polite you are, and I mean this in the kindest way possible, a credulous moron. Basically someone who only interacts with the individual words someone says instead of what they're actually telling you

I see we’re getting a bit derailed here, and our good friend Fortior has returned. Let’s keep it simple, everyone—there’s a poll. No need for insults or accusations. Just click the poll, cast your vote, and call it a day. Easy as that.

[Infectious]

I see we’re getting a bit derailed here, and our good friend Fortior has returned. Let’s keep it simple, everyone—there’s a poll. No need for insults or accusations. Just click the poll, cast your vote, and call it a day. Easy as that.

You asked for feedback... Now it's be quiet and just vote? :rolleyes:

[Ripqozko]

I see we’re getting a bit derailed here, and our good friend Fortior has returned. Let’s keep it simple, everyone—there’s a poll. No need for insults or accusations. Just click the poll, cast your vote, and call it a day. Easy as that.

thought you wanted conversation about it, just because you didnt get your answer you want silence and votes now? PS- Urn sucks

[zelld52]

i didnt put together the enchanter and the scheming, but needless to say mind blown.

[Keebz]

The forums are definitely not the place for player agreements. Half the people here don't even play. You're not gonna get much from this.

If you want to give URN a shot, post something on the discord, get some like minds together, setup the tool graciously provided to you, then go take the camp and see how it goes.

[sajbert]

The forums are definitely not the place for player agreements. Half the people here don't even play. You're not gonna get much from this.

If you want to give URN a shot, post something on the discord, get some like minds together, setup the tool graciously provided to you, then go take the camp and see how it goes.

Pretty much this. Since the community is too infested by dweebs who can't get along it's no a matter of getting a consensus on the issue, other than gauging interest or advertising URN there's no point to this topic. People who don't like it never needed to vote, certainly didn't need to post.

Only question now is if someone will actually organize URN on Green and if URN could gain possession and hold the camp.

[berbax]

Pretty much this. Since the community is too infested by dweebs who can't get along it's no a matter of getting a consensus on the issue, other than gauging interest or advertising URN there's no point to this topic. People who don't like it never needed to vote, certainly didn't need to post.

Only question now is if someone will actually organize URN on Green and if URN could gain possession and hold the camp.

You’re right, I’m willing to organize it, and the real question is whether it can actually gain possession of the camp.

As for the poll, it’s a due diligence step since CSR asked me to use the forums to post. This is me lining up my ducks to make the case for the camp, especially as we now enter day ~42/45 of Castle’s 24/7 hold. I’m still not certain the conditions are the same as Blue’s, and implementing this is contingent on the confidence that a larger majority will come together to claim it. My instinct tells me that might be unlikely, but if the poll and communications I have show more support for this than the roll (which most are in favor of), then I’ll certainly move forward with it.

[bcbrown]

jesus christ bcbrown who hurt you? you got so triggered by someone being polite

You're right, I was far too vitriolic. I'd like to apologize to berbax. There was no need to contribute to the toxicity on this forum.

[berbax]

You're right, I was far too vitriolic. I'd like to apologize to berbax. There was no need to contribute to the toxicity on this forum.

All good brother, no worries. I appreciate the apology.