Player Agreement: Rule Change at the DS Camp

[berbax]

Hello Community,

I am Berbax, a dedicated solo artist player, and I am writing to propose a rule change for the DS camp based on my experiences and gathered evidence. I initially tried to run this by the Project1999 staff, but they preferred a player agreement over instituting the change themselves. So here I'm going to outline the details of what should ideally be done with this camp.

Background and Current Issues:

In August 2023, I attempted to camp DS to achieve the solo artist accomplishment. Despite my best efforts over two weeks, securing the camp became nearly impossible, exacerbated by my own guild's refusal to let me try after they claimed it. After a break, I returned in June this year, only to face similar challenges. It took another two weeks of continuous monitoring to get a single chance at the camp, during which I was subjected to constant pressure and harassment from the "Good Guys" guild.

Video Evidence:
For a detailed account of my journey, please refer to this video: Journey to DS Camp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTDwVPBW9D0).

Current Camp Monopolization:

Since my return, I have meticulously logged camp ownership. As of today, Castle has monopolized the DS camp 24/7 since July 5, 2024—over 30 days straight. Here are my logs:

06-12-2024 - Good Guys
06-13-2024 - Good Guys
06-14-2024 - Good Guys
06-15-2024 - Good Guys
06-16-2024 - Good Guys
06-17-2024 - Good Guys (I had the camp, GG pressured me to full clear, and I had to cap out)
06-18-2024 - Good Guys
06-19-2024 - Good Guys
06-20-2024 - Kingdom thanks to GG wiping 3 times
06-21-2024 - Good Guys
06-22-2024 - Safe Space
06-23-2024 - Good Guys
06-24-2024 - Good Guys
06-25-2024 - Good Guys
06-26-2024 - Good Guys
06-27-2024 - Good Guys
06-28-2024 - The Drift!
06-29-2024 - Good Guys
06-30-2024 - Lineage (24 hour camp)
07-01-2024 - Lineage (24 hour camp)
07-02-2024 - Lineage (24 hour camp)
07-03-2024 - Lineage (24 hour camp)
07-03-2024 - Good Guys
07-04-2024 - Kingdom (held it since the morning like 930am CST 12 hours early)
07-05-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-06-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-07-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-08-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-09-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-10-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-11-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-12-2024 - Good Guys
07-13-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-14-2024 - Good Guys
07-15-2024 - Good Guys
07-16-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-17-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-18-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-19-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-20-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-21-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-22-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-23-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-24-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-25-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-26-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-27-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-28-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-29-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-30-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-31-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-01-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-02-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-03-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-04-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-05-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-06-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)

Argument for Rule Change:


Player Health: The current situation promotes unhealthy gaming habits, with players camping DS non-stop.
Toxicity: The high competition and harassment, as exemplified by my experiences with "Good Guys," foster a toxic environment.
Fair Access: The DS camp’s urn is valuable for all classes, similar to other high-demand items like Journeyman Boots. Current rules allow high-end guilds to monopolize the camp, excluding others.
Economic Impact: The urn sells for approximately 250k on the green server, and monopolization by a few guilds may drive real-money trading (RMT) influences.
Balancing Gameplay: DS camp difficulty is now trivial, making a list/line/roll system more reasonable and beneficial for a fair distribution of opportunities.

Proposed Change:

I advocate for implementing a list/line system for the DS camp or a roll, similar to other contentious spots like Angry and Scout. This will ensure healthier gameplay, reduce toxicity, and provide fair access to all players.

Thank you for considering this proposal. I am hopeful for a positive change that benefits the entire Project1999 community.

- Berbax

[Mewlio]

< - - - - Quarm is that way

[berbax]

< - - - - Quarm is that way

I'm really looking for the change to happen on P99, so right now I'm looking for the community to come together and agree on this type of change, so that the Project1999 staff can help in enforcing it.

[Mewlio]

Project 1999 isn't an entitlement server where you get something just because you feel you should. It is here to emulate Everquest as we experienced it "back in the day" and instituting rules that just award people things for showing up is bogus.

There are changes that could be made to improve the camp, but implementing a list/line/roll system is dumb.

[berbax]

Project 1999 isn't an entitlement server where you get something just because you feel you should. It is here to emulate Everquest as we experienced it "back in the day" and instituting rules that just award people things for showing up is bogus.

There are changes that could be made to improve the camp, but implementing a list/line/roll system is dumb.

It's important to recognize that Project 1999 already employs list/line/roll systems for multiple camps, as mentioned in my post, as well as a series of camp rules and engagements (FTE) that are rules upon rules to circumvent the inherent flaws in the persistent era. The server strives to emulate Everquest as we remember it, but we're not experiencing the game as we did "back in the day" due to several factors.

Today's players are much more aware of min/maxing strategies, leading to behaviors and competition that weren't as prevalent back then. Additionally, Project 1999's static era means that certain items retain high contention indefinitely, unlike in the evolving original game where new content would shift player focus and reduce competition for older items.

Implementing a list/line/roll system at the DS camp would address the modern realities of gameplay on Project 1999, promoting fairness and reducing the toxic competition that currently exists. This change wouldn't hand out rewards arbitrarily; it would ensure that all players have a fair chance at valuable items, maintaining the spirit of Everquest while adapting to the dynamics of our current player base.

[Mewlio]

There are other servers that do this already, don't try and change the existent server to meet your desires when other options exist.

If the majority of people wanted those features, they would be on other servers where those rulesets are key features. I.e. Project Quarm.

[FatMice]

I wonder the real life analogy where the OP's logic applies.

Would you walk to the front line of a sneaker drop and expect dibs?

When there is a high demand for a commodity do you think it's fair to assume you deserve something and influence everyone else around you for your pleasure?

Oh here's one. When you get to the line at the grocery store and there aren't enough cashiers, so there you are you're at the end of the line waiting your turn; do you just grow so impatience you demand people move out of your way?

You must park your Prius across 4 parking spots.

[loramin]

OP your proposal is still missing a "why". All you have in your "Argument for Rule Change" is a list with (essentially) one reason "I couldn't get DS, and a group of organized players could".

But that's a feature, not a bug. Solo people can't hold that camp down, because they can't keep the room clear. You need a group to clear the room and kill DS, so the system does have a list ... its just that you can't get on it simply by showing up (DS is not Scout) ... you have to "earn" the camp (ie. prove you're able to kill DS), by showing up early to it and holding it down until DS spawns.

[Fingurs]

What Loramin said.

[berbax]

There are other servers that do this already, don't try and change the existent server to meet your desires when other options exist.

If the majority of people wanted those features, they would be on other servers where those rulesets are key features. I.e. Project Quarm.

The rulesets have already changed multiple times, that's how we ended on rolls for angry/scout. So the majority of people wanted those to be a fair chance situation. I'm introducing a new one for the parallel camp (because it aligns with Angry also). I'm not sure you understand the similarities between these camps, and existing changes, and how the players already agreed upon these things. Lastly I'm not interested in Project Quarm, it has a ton of different changes (especially loot changes) that do not make sense, I'm certain many others feel similarly.

[berbax]

OP your proposal is still missing a "why". All you have in your "Argument for Rule Change" is a list with (essentially) one reason "I couldn't get DS, and a group of organized players could".

But that's a feature, not a bug. Solo people can't hold that camp down, because they can't keep the room clear. You need a group to clear the room and kill DS, so the system does have a list ... its just that you can't get on it simply by showing up (DS is not Scout) ... you have to "earn" the camp (ie. prove you're able to kill DS), by showing up early to it and holding it down until DS spawns.

Sorry but this is vastly wrong, I solo'd the room for 2 hours before doing my first DS kill with a little relief. Likewise Mcreary from GG can solo the entire camp. Lastly you actually cannot get the camp at all right now because Castle has the capability with different timezones to lock it down entirely (which is stated in my post) for 24 hours a day. Please read my post more carefully, also the video shows me doing the DS attempt (and the kill)

[berbax]

I wonder the real life analogy where the OP's logic applies.

Would you walk to the front line of a sneaker drop and expect dibs?

When there is a high demand for a commodity do you think it's fair to assume you deserve something and influence everyone else around you for your pleasure?

Oh here's one. When you get to the line at the grocery store and there aren't enough cashiers, so there you are you're at the end of the line waiting your turn; do you just grow so impatience you demand people move out of your way?

You must park your Prius across 4 parking spots.

Standard GG response.

Edit: I guess I'll elaborate

It's clear that your response is meant to be provocative rather than constructive. Let’s me fix each point you're suggesting:

Sneaker Drop Analogy: The comparison to a sneaker drop isn't accurate. The suggestion isn't about jumping the line, but about implementing a system that allows fair access for everyone, similar to how a lottery or raffle system works for high-demand items.

High-Demand Commodities: The current system forces players to camp 24 hours a day to obtain an item, which is neither fair nor healthy. My proposal aims to ensure everyone has a reasonable chance, much like how roll systems have already been successfully implemented for other high-demand camps.

Grocery Store Analogy: Again, this analogy misses the mark. The suggestion is not about pushing others aside but about creating a structured, orderly system that prevents monopolization by a few and distributes opportunities more equitably.

Personal Insults: Resorting to personal insults, such as the Prius comment, clearly rude. The focus should be on the merits of the proposed change, not on attacking those who suggest them.

The goal is to foster a healthier and more equitable environment for all players. P99 has already adapted and implemented similar changes in the past, demonstrating that the community values fair access and reduced toxicity. This proposal follows that same principle.

[magicfest2]

Couple pieces of context:
1) It was not “GG” during the times OP marked as GG. It was at least two distinct groups of players including one group that is not exclusively GG members. We tried to explain this because OP continually treated us like the same group but we are not, in fact we’re in competition with each other. This was apparently totally beyond comprehension. I believe we also had another person do a solo challenge for the camp during this time from GG that was not acting as either group, so lumping GG together in the same way as some other guilds where it’s an official guild activity is not correct.
2) At least the group I’m in does not typically do much contesting for the camp unless one group of players has been monopolizing it for too long (we just stepped away for a while when Castle started doing it, and only recently have started contesting again), or someone has been acting poorly towards us first. In this case, OP was incredibly belligerent the entire time we saw him, contested us nonstop for days, and called in backup to help with his “solo artist” challenge. If OP weren’t one of the most abrasive people I’ve ever met at the camp, I think it is likely their experience would have been totally different.

So… that said, I’d be happy to see better rules and see them more consistently enforced, but IMO this post better belongs in R&F. The list system is better? Really? Lists are the most unhealthy and toxic system in the game, if anything that would make it even worse. Someone else suggested camping in the room if challenged and IMO that would be at least a slight improvement… Better clarity about challenges would also be good, because one person flopped afk is the current meta for it and there isn’t really a good way to prove a valid challenge. We’ve been challenged by a semi-afk 52 cleric too and have to clear carefully because otherwise some monks will appear out of nowhere and take over.

OP did you ever actually do it completely solo or did you end up counting the time your friends in Kingdom cleared everything for you and watched you do DS at the end?

[servirus06]

Hello Community,

I am Berbax, a dedicated solo artist player, and I am writing to propose a rule change for the DS camp based on my experiences and gathered evidence. I initially tried to run this by the Project1999 staff, but they preferred a player agreement over instituting the change themselves. So here I'm going to outline the details of what should ideally be done with this camp.

Background and Current Issues:

In August 2023, I attempted to camp DS to achieve the solo artist accomplishment. Despite my best efforts over two weeks, securing the camp became nearly impossible, exacerbated by my own guild's refusal to let me try after they claimed it. After a break, I returned in June this year, only to face similar challenges. It took another two weeks of continuous monitoring to get a single chance at the camp, during which I was subjected to constant pressure and harassment from the "Good Guys" guild.

Video Evidence:
For a detailed account of my journey, please refer to this video: Journey to DS Camp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTDwVPBW9D0).

Current Camp Monopolization:

Since my return, I have meticulously logged camp ownership. As of today, Castle has monopolized the DS camp 24/7 since July 5, 2024—over 30 days straight. Here are my logs:

06-12-2024 - Good Guys
06-13-2024 - Good Guys
06-14-2024 - Good Guys
06-15-2024 - Good Guys
06-16-2024 - Good Guys
06-17-2024 - Good Guys (I had the camp, GG pressured me to full clear, and I had to cap out)
06-18-2024 - Good Guys
06-19-2024 - Good Guys
06-20-2024 - Kingdom thanks to GG wiping 3 times
06-21-2024 - Good Guys
06-22-2024 - Safe Space
06-23-2024 - Good Guys
06-24-2024 - Good Guys
06-25-2024 - Good Guys
06-26-2024 - Good Guys
06-27-2024 - Good Guys
06-28-2024 - The Drift!
06-29-2024 - Good Guys
06-30-2024 - Lineage (24 hour camp)
07-01-2024 - Lineage (24 hour camp)
07-02-2024 - Lineage (24 hour camp)
07-03-2024 - Lineage (24 hour camp)
07-03-2024 - Good Guys
07-04-2024 - Kingdom (held it since the morning like 930am CST 12 hours early)
07-05-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-06-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-07-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-08-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-09-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-10-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-11-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-12-2024 - Good Guys
07-13-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-14-2024 - Good Guys
07-15-2024 - Good Guys
07-16-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-17-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-18-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-19-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-20-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-21-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-22-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-23-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-24-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-25-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-26-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-27-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-28-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-29-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-30-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
07-31-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-01-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-02-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-03-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-04-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-05-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)
08-06-2024 - Castle (24 hour camp?)

Argument for Rule Change:


Player Health: The current situation promotes unhealthy gaming habits, with players camping DS non-stop.
Toxicity: The high competition and harassment, as exemplified by my experiences with "Good Guys," foster a toxic environment.
Fair Access: The DS camp’s urn is valuable for all classes, similar to other high-demand items like Journeyman Boots. Current rules allow high-end guilds to monopolize the camp, excluding others.
Economic Impact: The urn sells for approximately 250k on the green server, and monopolization by a few guilds may drive real-money trading (RMT) influences.
Balancing Gameplay: DS camp difficulty is now trivial, making a list/line/roll system more reasonable and beneficial for a fair distribution of opportunities.

Proposed Change:

I advocate for implementing a list/line system for the DS camp or a roll, similar to other contentious spots like Angry and Scout. This will ensure healthier gameplay, reduce toxicity, and provide fair access to all players.

Thank you for considering this proposal. I am hopeful for a positive change that benefits the entire Project1999 community.

- Berbax

Berbax, sadly all u have proposed has been thought in blue the biggest problem is DS is not a 100% drop rate, Brool can help establish Urn group in Green if u wanna try to compete and get options, solo endeavors are the 1% of what's seen in DS camp, i understand u wanna do the solo thing, but if you wanna work for quest completion having friends help goes a long way. i had no way of getting urns on my toons till Urn group was founded and ive been in it pretty early, so i can tell you its worth, and you can meet a bunch of new people which guild tags would exclude other wise, since its a system for all :)
hope this bit of info helps - Servirus06

[Jimjam]

OP your proposal is still missing a "why". All you have in your "Argument for Rule Change" is a list with (essentially) one reason "I couldn't get DS, and a group of organized players could".

But that's a feature, not a bug. Solo people can't hold that camp down, because they can't keep the room clear. You need a group to clear the room and kill DS, so the system does have a list ... its just that you can't get on it simply by showing up (DS is not Scout) ... you have to "earn" the camp (ie. prove you're able to kill DS), by showing up early to it and holding it down until DS spawns.

I hate being forced into player interactions on an mmo. It ruins the entire point of it!

[berbax]

Couple pieces of context:

It was not “GG” during the times OP marked as GG. It was at least two distinct groups of players including one group that is not exclusively GG members. We tried to explain this because OP continually treated us like the same group but we are not, in fact we’re in competition with each other. This was apparently totally beyond comprehension. I believe we also had another person do a solo challenge for the camp during this time from GG that was not acting as either group, so lumping GG together in the same way as some other guilds where it’s an official guild activity is not correct.
At least the group I’m in does not typically do much contesting for the camp unless one group of players has been monopolizing it for too long (we just stepped away for a while when Castle started doing it, and only recently have started contesting again), or someone has been acting poorly towards us first. In this case, OP was incredibly belligerent the entire time we saw him, contested us nonstop for days, and called in backup to help with his “solo artist” challenge. If OP weren’t one of the most abrasive people I’ve ever met at the camp, I think it is likely their experience would have been totally different.
So… that said, I’d be happy to see better rules and see them more consistently enforced, but IMO this post better belongs in R&F. The list system is better? Really? Lists are the most unhealthy and toxic system in the game, if anything that would make it even worse. Someone else suggested camping in the room if challenged and IMO that would be at least a slight improvement… Better clarity about challenges would also be good, because one person flopped afk is the current meta for it and there isn’t really a good way to prove a valid challenge. We’ve been challenged by a semi-afk 52 cleric too and have to clear carefully because otherwise some monks will appear out of nowhere and take over.

OP did you ever actually do it completely solo or did you end up counting the time your friends in Kingdom cleared everything for you and watched you do DS at the end?

I appreciate the context you’ve provided, but I'm going to correct it.

First, I was not belligerent during my attempts at the DS camp. My interactions with your group were straightforward requests to clear the camp, which were met with hostility, including being called "scum" when you lost the camp. Some of my chat even appears in the video provided, I doubt any of it you'd find "abrasive". Personally I can't get behind the "we are in GG, but we are not GG" scenario between your 3 factions: The Syndicate, Big Urn, and Little Sinew. Just because you have internal competition with each other, doesn't mean the GG doesn't benefit from each of you obtaining the camp/urn and/or money from it.

Regarding the solo artist attempt, I did clear the camp solo for two hours, including Mort Prot. Eventually, The Drift assisted, and we cleared the camp together. I killed DS solo with the room cleared. While it may not meet your definition of a solo artist attempt, it's important to note that fully clearing the DS room solo is practically impossible in the current state of the game. I have additional videos demonstrating my solo efforts if you’re interested.

The goal here is to address the monopolization of the camp and ensure fair access for all players. I see you're willing to change the camp rules, I'm open to suggestions on top of my own.

[Allishia]

What ya need to do, is like we did in blue. There was a farm group that wouldn't let anyone in and kept ds on lock. They were so greedy, they wouldn't even let their own guildys in it.

Sooo people got together and made a discord to compete for it. It's called URN. They implemented a dkp system and work together spreading urns around to those who put in time.

They also allow anyone to join so it's fair /nod

Worked out great on blue, the greedy farm group people lost and anyone who wants an urn is free to start urning dkp and join the URN /nod

[berbax]

Berbax, sadly all u have proposed has been thought in blue the biggest problem is DS is not a 100% drop rate, Brool can help establish Urn group in Green if u wanna try to compete and get options, solo endeavors are the 1% of what's seen in DS camp, i understand u wanna do the solo thing, but if you wanna work for quest completion having friends help goes a long way. i had no way of getting urns on my toons till Urn group was founded and ive been in it pretty early, so i can tell you its worth, and you can meet a bunch of new people which guild tags would exclude other wise, since its a system for all :)
hope this bit of info helps - Servirus06

Understood, thanks for your input! I did finish the solo artist attempt though, so that was nice. This post was mostly for the good of the server, and the health of the people on camping it.

[berbax]

What ya need to do, is like we did in blue. There was a farm group that wouldn't let anyone in and kept ds on lock. They were so greedy, they wouldn't even let their own guildys in it.

Sooo people got together and made a discord to compete for it. It's called URN. They implemented a dkp system and work together spreading urns around to those who put in time.

They also allow anyone to join so it's fair /nod

Worked out great on blue, the greedy farm group people lost and anyone who wants an urn is free to start urning dkp and join the URN /nod

That sounds great actually, Kingdom has something similar which I can respect

[Mewlio]

The only things that would improve this camp:

1. Actual enforcement of rules by CSR
2. CSR Prescribing a black and white ruleset for ownership of the camp and contestation
3. Clear requests may only be completed by those in game at the camp at the time the request was made
4. Clear requestor(s) at the camp at the time of request are the only ones permitted to perform the first clear in the event of the original holder's failure to clear.
5. Once the room is broken, the camp must be held from inside drusella's room and kept clear to hold the camp (the hall may only be used to break the camp).
6. Charm pets must be killed each cycle if it belongs from one of the spawns at the camp.

[berbax]

The only things that would improve this camp:

1. Actual enforcement of rules by CSR
2. CSR Prescribing a black and white ruleset for ownership of the camp and contestation
3. Clear requests may only be completed by those in game at the camp at the time the request was made
4. Clear requestor(s) at the camp at the time of request are the only ones permitted to perform the first clear in the event of the original holder's failure to clear.
5. Once the room is broken, the camp must be held from inside drusella's room and kept clear to hold the camp (the hall may only be used to break the camp).
6. Charm pets must be killed each cycle if it belongs from one of the spawns at the camp.

This is essentially changing very little with any of the points I raised about the camp.

[Mewlio]

It changes a lot.

People will not be sitting there 24/7 as solo person place holding to "phone" their friends when being contested. Will require actual resource commitment.

[magicfest2]

The group I’m in is not limited to one guild, has a point system, and while we aren’t 100% open we do allow people to join that show interest and have a good history of interactions with us that indicate they’re people we can get along with.

Your video does show some interaction with us but not the part where you forced us to clear for hours (though you did just post about it I guess) over many days. I wasn’t there when we lost the camp to you but after watching your video I think it was after the fifth or sixth day of you logging in just 15-30 minutes after us and making us clear nearly the entire 6-8 hours, which we had never done to anyone previously and is absolutely not the norm — typically people ask for a clear to test if people are capable, then might hang around for one more cycle and leave. You single handedly changed the clear meta to be long stretches of time, and we found that to be a bit rude.

[Ripqozko]

Green is a dead server, there is no reason to change anything. Enjoy eternal purgatory, hope this helps.

[sajbert]

Oh no, you're gonna piss off all the entitled neckbeards now.

I'm all in favor of a /list or similar system for this camp.

[berbax]

The group I’m in is not limited to one guild, has a point system, and while we aren’t 100% open we do allow people to join that show interest and have a good history of interactions with us that indicate they’re people we can get along with.

Your video does show some interaction with us but not the part where you forced us to clear for hours (though you did just post about it I guess) over many days. I wasn’t there when we lost the camp to you but after watching your video I think it was after the fifth or sixth day of you logging in just 15-30 minutes after us and making us clear nearly the entire 6-8 hours, which we had never done to anyone previously and is absolutely not the norm — typically people ask for a clear to test if people are capable, then might hang around for one more cycle and leave. You single handedly changed the clear meta to be long stretches of time, and we found that to be a bit rude.

The first time I arrived at the camp before you guys, do you know what GG did? GG breathed over my shoulder the entire time. "Clear the camp Berbax. You have 5 minutes Berbax. Engage a golem Berbax. The fun part will be doing this for the next 4 hours. Is that hallway roamer your pet?". These are actual quotes. At that time, I hadn't done anything yet (it was actually day 4 and I hadn't even bothered to record either).This is a pretty constant theme with GG, it's standard behavior. It's hard for me to stress the hypocrisy or the irony of saying "we found that to be a bit rude". I have more examples of this as well.

All of this to say, it's proving my point about the toxicity around the camp, and the overall need for change.

[sajbert]

I wonder the real life analogy where the OP's logic applies.

Would you walk to the front line of a sneaker drop and expect dibs?

When there is a high demand for a commodity do you think it's fair to assume you deserve something and influence everyone else around you for your pleasure?

Oh here's one. When you get to the line at the grocery store and there aren't enough cashiers, so there you are you're at the end of the line waiting your turn; do you just grow so impatience you demand people move out of your way?

You must park your Prius across 4 parking spots.
This is comical, "I earned the pixels". No, you just had nothing better to do with your life.

[magicfest2]

The first time I arrived at the camp before you guys, do you know what GG did? GG breathed over my shoulder the entire time. "Clear the camp Berbax. You have 5 minutes Berbax. Engage a golem Berbax. The fun part will be doing this for the next 4 hours. Is that hallway roamer your pet?". These are actual quotes. At that time, I hadn't done anything yet (it was actually day 4 and I hadn't even bothered to record either).This is a pretty constant theme with GG, it's standard behavior. It's hard for me to stress the hypocrisy or the irony of saying "we found that to be a bit rude". I have more examples of this as well.

All of this to say, it's proving my point about the toxicity around the camp, and the overall need for change.

If that’s how you remember it. /shrug

[sajbert]

OP your proposal is still missing a "why". All you have in your "Argument for Rule Change" is a list with (essentially) one reason "I couldn't get DS, and a group of organized players could".

But that's a feature, not a bug. Solo people can't hold that camp down, because they can't keep the room clear. You need a group to clear the room and kill DS, so the system does have a list ... its just that you can't get on it simply by showing up (DS is not Scout) ... you have to "earn" the camp (ie. prove you're able to kill DS), by showing up early to it and holding it down until DS spawns.
It's blatantly problematic when guilds monopolize the camp over long periods of time, restricting access of a BIS item and sadly also one of the few BIS items that a non-raider could obtain.

It's not a feature either, it's a flaw that's allowed by current rules and current rules are not classic anyway. They can and have been changed before.

That it needs a group to clear the room and kill DS is no argument either. Verix also needs a group to clear and kill. Verix was only recently was removed from /list and I'm guessing only because there wasn't any need for it anymore.

[sajbert]

If that’s how you remember it. /shrug
Oh yeah, I'm sure OP is just remembering. GG would NEVER do that. Right fellas? :o

[sajbert]

Berbax, sadly all u have proposed has been thought in blue the biggest problem is DS is not a 100% drop rate.

Neither were most /list camps.

[FatMice]

Standard GG response.

Edit: I guess I'll elaborate

It's clear that your response is meant to be provocative rather than constructive. Let’s me fix each point you're suggesting:

Sneaker Drop Analogy: The comparison to a sneaker drop isn't accurate. The suggestion isn't about jumping the line, but about implementing a system that allows fair access for everyone, similar to how a lottery or raffle system works for high-demand items.

High-Demand Commodities: The current system forces players to camp 24 hours a day to obtain an item, which is neither fair nor healthy. My proposal aims to ensure everyone has a reasonable chance, much like how roll systems have already been successfully implemented for other high-demand camps.

Grocery Store Analogy: Again, this analogy misses the mark. The suggestion is not about pushing others aside but about creating a structured, orderly system that prevents monopolization by a few and distributes opportunities more equitably.

Personal Insults: Resorting to personal insults, such as the Prius comment, clearly rude. The focus should be on the merits of the proposed change, not on attacking those who suggest them.

The goal is to foster a healthier and more equitable environment for all players. P99 has already adapted and implemented similar changes in the past, demonstrating that the community values fair access and reduced toxicity. This proposal follows that same principle.

You got me! Next time you see any GG at DS make sure you show them this post. I'm sure they will agree, you can have the camp ok?

[Digz]

I've seen "first come first served" tossed out in here. In the case of 24 hour camps by mega-guilds, it's not that. It's an "Our guild was here first, we're gonna swap in/out players as we see fit and block others from getting this". There's literally 0% chance of getting these things if you're not part of the team that's blocking everyone else.

Those of you who played in 1999 would remember that camps weren't held by guilds, they were held by a 6 player group from whatever affiliation, one person leaves, next person on a manually maintained list joins, loot given in order. People in the group usually had a pencil and paper with them to track the list and ensure fairness.

As Berbax also said, there have been a ton of player-made rule changes in the name of fairness and to prevent just such scenarios. Look at lists, Scout, Angry, racing to Vindi, Vulak, etc. The precedent exists.

Does anyone want this server to devolve to the point of 3 or 4 guilds owning everything and the rest of the players settling for the scraps? That's where it's headed, very very quickly.

[enjchanter]

Nah u guys didn't want instances so you don't got instances

Enjoy suffering

[fortior]

Does anyone want this server to devolve to the point of 3 or 4 guilds owning everything and the rest of the players settling for the scraps? That's where it's headed, very very quickly.

Guildless players don’t even deserve scraps. Let them starve.

[Digz]

Interesting you assume that just because someone isn't in Kingdom, GG, Castle... that means they're guildless.

[Ripqozko]

Interesting you assume that just because someone isn't in Kingdom, GG, Castle... that means they're guildless.

They basically are

[Digz]

@fortior @ripqozko If you're joking at least have the decency to put a laughing emoji. If not then... wow.

[Ripqozko]

@fortior @ripqozko If you're joking at least have the decency to put a laughing emoji. If not then... wow.

Not my fault someone can't make it into a real guild

[Digz]

@ripqozko You mean they can't type "Hey can I join"?

[loramin]

Rip is a troll, but the two of them aren't entirely wrong either.

EQ is a social game. Large parts of it are only for groups of players (in the general sense, not the six-people sense). That's a feature, not a bug: P99 should to require you to work with others to get the best loot.

What is a little odd about DS is that she's not a raid encounter, but the current meta has made it difficult (though not impossible) for an individual or small group to get her. While I'm sympathetic to a well-made argument on how to fix that ... I've yet to see one in this thread.

What I do see is that introducing /list will seriously inconvenience larger groups (getting the right person to loot the drops will be quite complicated with /list), and would only benefit individuals/very small groups (which are by far the minority).

[Vear99]

I attempted to camp DS to achieve the solo artist accomplishment.

If you let them loot the urn, they will probably give you a chance to try her solo. I realize that is a bit of a downer, but <shrug>

[berbax]

The rulesets have already changed multiple times, that's how we ended on rolls for angry/scout. So the majority of people wanted those to be a fair chance situation. I'm introducing a new one for the parallel camp (because it aligns with Angry also). I'm not sure you understand the similarities between these camps, and existing changes, and how the players already agreed upon these things. Lastly I'm not interested in Project Quarm, it has a ton of different changes (especially loot changes) that do not make sense, I'm certain many others feel similarly.

If you let them loot the urn, they will probably give you a chance to try her solo. I realize that is a bit of a downer, but <shrug>


Well it’s a little tangential from the point of the post, but GG knew I was there for solo artist but still pressured me near death. Also I cleared the room solo, and the names mortiferous protector for 2 hours so it feels fine really. It’s harder to clear the room than it is to do the assist aggro pull through the door for what it’s worth.

[berbax]

Rip is a troll, but the two of them aren't entirely wrong either.

EQ is a social game. Large parts of it are only for groups of players (in the general sense, not the six-people sense). That's a feature, not a bug: P99 should to require you to work with others to get the best loot.

What is a little odd about DS is that she's not a raid encounter, but the current meta has made it difficult (though not impossible) for an individual or small group to get her. While I'm sympathetic to a well-made argument on how to fix that ... I've yet to see one in this thread.

What I do see is that introducing /list will seriously inconvenience larger groups (getting the right person to loot the drops will be quite complicated with /list), and would only benefit individuals/very small groups (which are by far the minority).

I’d love to hear some suggestions, personally I think if the roll system works for other camps it should work fine for this one in the same quest chain

[nphixion]

The urn sells for approximately 250k on the green server, and monopolization by a few guilds may drive real-money trading (RMT) influences.

The price of the brick goin up

[swiftduke]

I am for rule change to /random 1000.

Reasons I am for: less toxicity, would create no reason to camp 24/7 which is bad for the health of those doing it just as much as it is bad for the community, would mean there is no reason to "accidentally" train other players, then solo players would have a chance because the camp really can be done solo in the first place - the main reason for using a group is for fear of being trained and for help camping 24/7.

my 2c

[Ruien]

I would be against any change that makes this a /random camp.

The URN should go to people who put in the time and effort to earn it, not just someone who can log in for a few seconds to /random. The better system is this one (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430527). Implement this on green, and the issue of exclusivity will disappear. The freeloaders will be filtered out, and the monopoly will be broken. Everyone can work their way to an URN on their own time, in a fair way, and enjoy a community during the journey too.

Any comment about a "solo challenge" is a distraction. If you just want to kill the mob and legitimately give away the drops, I am sure any will oblige. This is about getting your URN, and the link above is the right way to address it.

[Ssouky]

@Loramin

I don't really get why you should have the room cleaned to hold camp. I don't know any camp anywhere, where you're supposed to have everything clean...
Fungi king ? Need to clean everything ?
Any Seb camp ?
Kaesora camps ?
KC camps ?
Guk frenzy camp ?
Velk's camps ?
PoM camps ?
Sol A/B camps ?

This rule of "you need to be able to keep the camp clean" is DS specific. As it was stated earlier, this is classic EQ. You're here first, you keep killing stuff, you can solo some mobs of the camp, the named, it's your camp. I'd even argue you don't even have to be chain killing. Fungi king again. Who's going to ask someone to keep cleaning the tower and around ? Monks just flop every 20 mins, keep the corridor clean and single pull the PH.

If I'd like to just kill the pather and 1 or 2 mobs because that's all I can maintain down but I'm still able to single pull the named and solo it, why isn't it my camp ? That's exactly what everyone is doing at basically every camp.

I'm just asking because this is just inconsistent. Not that I actually care much, I don't need it and don't know anyone still "needing" this in 2024.

And to answer the OP : you're playing EQ. Camp this until you get the opportunity. You'll get it at some point. The longer you wait and push yourself, the greater the satisfaction.

[magicfest2]

Oh yeah, I'm sure OP is just remembering. GG would NEVER do that. Right fellas? :o

Again, my group is primarily GG but is not exclusively GG and is not the only GG doing this camp. Referring to the groups camping DS by their guild is not really accurate, and leads to misunderstanding…

I actually did some digging and the first time I can find that we even heard about OP at the camp was 6/17 and another duo who happen to be in GG made him clear (and took the camp). We saw him ourselves the next day on 6/18 and just logged out. The first time we actually interacted with him was when he forced us to clear for several hours on 6/20. At the time he was already angry about the previous days even though this was our first time seeing him. We tried to explain we aren’t the same group but he refused to listen or attempt to understand. We continued to log on earlier than him for the next several days as well, just like his video shows, though we were only beating him by about 15-30 minutes, which we admittedly found a little funny.

Anyway, our group does not request clears except in response to others, as a matter of policy. By the time he got the camp and we asked him to clear for the first time, he’d been forcing us to clear for a simply stupid amount of hours, and we returned the favor. Until recently with Castle (who IS doing it as a guild, apparently) OP is by far the most we have asked someone to clear, and it’s essentially because of his misunderstanding about our group membership and refusal to listen. We’ve asked Castle to clear a bit more than we typically like to (sitting there watching is a huge waste of time too) given their 24h hold for most of the past month, and to their credit, they’ve held well! Honestly I think it’s impressive to see a group of people band together and manage to hold something like that for that long.

[berbax]

Again, my group is primarily GG but is not exclusively GG and is not the only GG doing this camp. Referring to the groups camping DS by their guild is not really accurate, and leads to misunderstanding…

I actually did some digging and the first time I can find that we even heard about OP at the camp was 6/17 and another duo who happen to be in GG made him clear (and took the camp). We saw him ourselves the next day on 6/18 and just logged out. The first time we actually interacted with him was when he forced us to clear for several hours on 6/20. At the time he was already angry about the previous days even though this was our first time seeing him. We tried to explain we aren’t the same group but he refused to listen or attempt to understand. We continued to log on earlier than him for the next several days as well, just like his video shows, though we were only beating him by about 15-30 minutes, which we admittedly found a little funny.

Anyway, our group does not request clears except in response to others, as a matter of policy. By the time he got the camp and we asked him to clear for the first time, he’d been forcing us to clear for a simply stupid amount of hours, and we returned the favor. Until recently with Castle (who IS doing it as a guild, apparently) OP is by far the most we have asked someone to clear, and it’s essentially because of his misunderstanding about our group membership and refusal to listen. We’ve asked Castle to clear a bit more than we typically like to (sitting there watching is a huge waste of time too) given their 24h hold for most of the past month, and to their credit, they’ve held well! Honestly I think it’s impressive to see a group of people band together and manage to hold something like that for that long.

The purpose of this discussion is to address the need for a rule change at the DS camp, not to delve into the specifics of group dynamics within "Good Guys." It seems that your experience of being forced to clear the camp for hours has been frustrating. This frustration supports the argument for a roll system, which would reduce the need for prolonged and contentious camping sessions.

Implementing a roll system would streamline the process, making it fairer and less time-consuming for everyone involved. Agreeing to this change would benefit all players by creating a more equitable and efficient way to manage high-demand camps like DS. Let’s focus on improving the camp’s rules for the betterment of the entire community.

[berbax]

@Loramin

I don't really get why you should have the room cleaned to hold camp. I don't know any camp anywhere, where you're supposed to have everything clean...
Fungi king ? Need to clean everything ?
Any Seb camp ?
Kaesora camps ?
KC camps ?
Guk frenzy camp ?
Velk's camps ?
PoM camps ?
Sol A/B camps ?

This rule of "you need to be able to keep the camp clean" is DS specific. As it was stated earlier, this is classic EQ. You're here first, you keep killing stuff, you can solo some mobs of the camp, the named, it's your camp. I'd even argue you don't even have to be chain killing. Fungi king again. Who's going to ask someone to keep cleaning the tower and around ? Monks just flop every 20 mins, keep the corridor clean and single pull the PH.

If I'd like to just kill the pather and 1 or 2 mobs because that's all I can maintain down but I'm still able to single pull the named and solo it, why isn't it my camp ? That's exactly what everyone is doing at basically every camp.

I'm just asking because this is just inconsistent. Not that I actually care much, I don't need it and don't know anyone still "needing" this in 2024.

And to answer the OP : you're playing EQ. Camp this until you get the opportunity. You'll get it at some point. The longer you wait and push yourself, the greater the satisfaction.

Thanks for your input. To address your points:

The requirement to clear the entire room is indeed specific to the DS camp. The inconsistency you mentioned is part of the reason for advocating a rule change. Aligning the rules at DS with other camps would promote fairness and consistency.

I managed to secure the camp after 14 days of arriving as early as 5 am. This experience highlighted the unhealthy nature of the current system, which demands excessive time and effort.

"And to answer the OP": As mentioned, it’s currently impossible to get the camp because Castle maintains a timezone rotation allowing them to hold it 24/7. This monopolization prevents others from having any chance, making the situation untenable for most players.

Implementing a list/roll system would address these issues, ensuring that all players have a fair opportunity to camp DS without the need for unhealthy, prolonged camping sessions.

[fortior]

Interesting you assume that just because someone isn't in Kingdom, GG, Castle... that means they're guildless.

Solo artists can do their thing but this is a social game and it’s them who should adapt. We don’t need more specific rules for specific camps because enchanters want to solo things. Also, DS isn’t even a hard solo artist encounter, it’s just a 250k plat MQ and OP obviously wants it.

We also have precedence with small non raiding guilds not mattering: ragefire, a mob you can duo or kill with a small group, is a draftable mob which means non draft entities are blocked from killing it during the draft even if they could. Same goes for solo enchanters and hate minis during draft, etc.

Nobody should care about solo enchanters, already the most overpowered class, whining that they have to compete against teamwork.

[berbax]

Solo artists can do their thing but this is a social game and it’s them who should adapt. We don’t need more specific rules for specific camps because enchanters want to solo things. Also, DS isn’t even a hard solo artist encounter, it’s just a 250k plat MQ and OP obviously wants it.

We also have precedence with small non raiding guilds not mattering: ragefire, a mob you can duo or kill with a small group, is a draftable mob which means non draft entities are blocked from killing it during the draft even if they could. Same goes for solo enchanters and hate minis during draft, etc.

Nobody should care about solo enchanters, already the most overpowered class, whining that they have to compete against teamwork.

Your response contains several misconceptions that I’d like to address:

At the time of my recording, it was well-known among those present that my goal was the solo artist achievement, not obtaining the urn for monetary gain. My focus has always been on challenging myself, not on the item’s market value.

As others and I have stated, specific rules for certain camps already exist to address unique challenges and maintain fairness. The DS camp is no different and would benefit from similar regulation to prevent monopolization and ensure equitable access.

It's important to understand that P99 is locked in an early era of EQ where its stagnation exacerbates itemization problems because the game is no longer progressing with expansions and new content. Unlike the original game, where the introduction of new expansions shifted player focus and demand for items, P99 will see perpetual high demand for specific items. This static nature creates a highly competitive environment where a few players or groups can monopolize valuable camps indefinitely, leading to the issues we are discussing. Implementing rules like a list/roll system is a necessary adaptation to these unique circumstances, ensuring that all players have a fair chance at acquiring important items, especially ones that are good for every single class.

I also encourage you to revisit the previous points made in this discussion, as these issues have been elaborated on in great detail.

Lastly, playing an enchanter at the DS camp requires a higher skill level, and it’s not as simple as using beads, feign death, and flying kick like a highly geared monk. While it may seem that enchanters have it easier, the reality is that their success demands precise skill and strategy, making them one of the higher skill, high reward classes in the game.

[Otsego]

I've seen "first come first served" tossed out in here. In the case of 24 hour camps by mega-guilds, it's not that. It's an "Our guild was here first, we're gonna swap in/out players as we see fit and block others from getting this". There's literally 0% chance of getting these things if you're not part of the team that's blocking everyone else.This is how anything works. If someone is camping something and they are maintaining that camp, then in most cases you cannot camp the same thing at that time.. it's currently their turn.

There is no goal of "block others from getting this", or at least there isn't among all groups (I can't speak for the other groups), but just because that is the outcome of someone camping an item doesn't mean their goal is to block others.

Yes, there is 0% chance to get the thing you want while another person is camping it. That isn't exclusive to this camp, so let's not pretend it is.


Those of you who played in 1999 would remember that camps weren't held by guilds, they were held by a 6 player group from whatever affiliation, one person leaves, next person on a manually maintained list joins, loot given in order. People in the group usually had a pencil and paper with them to track the list and ensure fairness.I don't remember this at all. There was no structure like this back when I played on live. There was no queue and first-in-first-out style system. If you joined a group and something dropped you randomed for it. On my server you would /rand 200 300 since they had some conspiracy about numbers below that being biased. Lose the random? You don't get the item you want - tough. Someone new joins the group and beats you on the random - tough. The dice decide your fate.

Some people ran NBG (need before greed) style groups with different rules, but it definitely wasn't the norm.

But player-held structured and ordered lists? I never saw this on live servers, sorry. The closest to that was a camp holder saying you can have the camp next once they're done with it.



Does anyone want this server to devolve to the point of 3 or 4 guilds owning everything and the rest of the players settling for the scraps? That's where it's headed, very very quickly.Feels like some bias mixed with being overly dramatic. I can't speak for all groups, but at least one only formed because of the contested system that requires the player to clear all the golems before the camp respawns.

Most people will need help to do that, so to do that they will call their friends to help secure the contested camp. No one wants to be forced to clear for 8/12/16/24 hours, even if they have the ability to do so. Especially if RNG is involved (feign death, pacify, charm, etc).

Once people help they become invested in the camp and are more likely to stick around, even if it's just to help against the contesting players, or even to spite them. Suddenly you have posts about a "guild owning everything and the rest of the players settling for the scraps"? Please. How about you try considering perspectives outside yourself.

Berbax, while a nice person, did almost nothing but say "clear pls" for hours on end. They are part of the toxicity and the problem. They are part of the reason anyone else holding the camp needs their friends/guilds to support them.

[sajbert]

it’s just a 250k plat MQ

[Otsego]

I’d love to hear some suggestions, personally I think if the roll system works for other camps it should work fine for this one in the same quest chainJust because it is the same quest chain does not mean it makes sense.

Angry Goblin is a head 100% of the time you turn in the report, as long as you kill Skargus

Shady Goblin is a report 100% of the time that you turn in

Drusella Sathir is not an urn 100% of the time that you kill her.

So you want people to go to a dangerous zone, that is easily trained, to random at a camp for the small chance to win some dice-based lottery.. and then the urn doesn't drop..

What then? You won the roll but get nothing? Have to roll again?

Or do you get a guaranteed urn for winning the roll and then have to kill her the next day until one drops? Are people going to show up on those next days? Who has to show up? Who's gonna validate that you actually loot an urn when you do? What if one drops and you say it didn't drop? Who's policing people from pocketing urns? Who's ensuring that the dice winner is the one even looting the urn? You expect the GMs to do this? Have you actually thought your idea to its conclusion? No, you have not.

I encourage and support new ideas on how to do things, but please think your ideas through and ensure they're actually better ideas. Cause all I see from this is you being upset at GG for pressuring your solo attempt. This feels like a post to spite GG.

Your data shows Castle is apparently holding the camp 24 hours a day (you add a ? at the end of each one by the way.. so you're not sure if they actually are?), but all I see you talking about is your bad experience with GG. So is this about GG or about Castle? Why have you not spoken ill about Castle too? Were they not mean to you? Or was it you being mean to them perhaps so you overlook that?

[Otsego]

Economic Impact: The urn sells for approximately 250k on the green server...The price will be determined by supply vs demand.. much like anything else. How much are people willing to pay based on how many they see available for sale.

The problem with people farming the urn for personal/internal use (and not for profit) is that those urns are not hitting the market (the supply). This is made worse because there is only one source of supply, on a 24 hour spawn timer, and also a low drop rate on top of that.

Technically the groups selling purely for profit were what was keeping the market prices as low as they were. Once you introduce a group of players not supplying the market you will see the prices begin to rise.

...and monopolization by a few guilds may drive real-money trading (RMT) influences.This is a scare tactic used to manipulate people into agreeing with your point. You can say this about any item in the game, or even about the currency itself.

You have so much potential with your proposal, but you cheapened it with this point.

Balancing Gameplay: DS camp difficulty is now trivial, making a list/line/roll system more reasonable and beneficial for a fair distribution of opportunities.The camp is hardly trivial if it is taking entire groups of players to successfully hold it down. Sure, maybe BIS monks and other very highly geared players can make it seem trivial, but the average player is going to struggle.

Your view is somewhat biased being an enchanter, which is a class known to be extremely overpowered in the Velious era. What about anyone who isn't an enchanter or BIS monk?

[Otsego]

@Loramin

I don't really get why you should have the room cleaned to hold camp. I don't know any camp anywhere, where you're supposed to have everything clean...It was implemented to keep monks from just feigning in the hallway and calling the camp claimed 24/7.

They had to prove they could clear the camp, since without that anyone can feign a monk, even if they could never solo even the hallway pather, and call it claimed.

It had the unintended (or perhaps intended) effect of gating it to BIS/top geared monks, or groups that could afford to park accounts out at the spot to hold the camp when contested - which favors the high end raiding guilds who have the spare resources.

(It doesn't have to be monks by the way, it just so happens monks are the most efficient and feign makes you near perfectly safe while AFK. I'm sure a geared Necro/SK could also do it with some effort.)

If some rule doesn't make sense, just work backwards and think how the camp can be abused without that rule in place. That's likely why the rule exists.

[fortior]

I’m not going to waste time discussing instance #243 of a soloing enchanter looking to remove the advantage of having friends and working together in p99, no. Feel free to pick any of the harder, freely available solo challenges, and accept you are playing a multiplayer game under a self-imposed higher difficulty setting.

[Ripqozko]

we as a server reject your terrible opinion, move to resolved.

[berbax]

I’m not going to waste time discussing instance #243 of a soloing enchanter looking to remove the advantage of having friends and working together in p99, no. Feel free to pick any of the harder, freely available solo challenges, and accept you are playing a multiplayer game under a self-imposed higher difficulty setting.

You seem very hyper-focused on one particular aspect, rather than considering the broader issue of camp fairness. The discussion is about ensuring equitable access to the DS camp for all players, not just solo enchanters. If you have nothing further to contribute on the topic of camp equality, thank you for your time.

[berbax]

we as a server reject your terrible opinion, move to resolved.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's important to remember that no single player speaks for the entire server. Your opinion reflects a minority of elitist attitudes. The comments you’ve made, not only on my posts but on others as well, often come across as spiteful and insulting. It’s crucial to engage in discussions with respect and consideration for differing perspectives. I don't think many will value your opinion when it's coated in spiteful vitriol, thank you for you time.

[Ripqozko]

I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's important to remember that no single player speaks for the entire server. Your opinion reflects a minority of elitist attitudes. The comments you’ve made, not only on my posts but on others as well, often come across as spiteful and insulting. It’s crucial to engage in discussions with respect and consideration for differing perspectives. I don't think many will value your opinion when it's coated in spiteful vitriol, thank you for you time.

read the thread there is more than one telling you no, thats enough to move to resolved.

[berbax]

read the thread there is more than one telling you no, thats enough to move to resolved.

Thank you for your time. As I mentioned before you do not speak for the server, but I appreciate your input.

[Ripqozko]

ah you only want things your way, not the way the server feels, got it.

[berbax]

ah you only want things your way, not the way the server feels, got it.

Thank you for your time, you're not the server, you are Ripqozko. Appreciate your feedback

[Surkk]

Big surprise, the people profiting from the current system who have the means to maintain a round the clock sock don't want any changes. DS should be brought in line with other quest bottlenecks like ring 8/10, scout and shady/angry.

[Otsego]

"And to answer the OP": As mentioned, it’s currently impossible to get the camp because Castle maintains a timezone rotation allowing them to hold it 24/7. This monopolization prevents others from having any chance, making the situation untenable for most players.Wait, so is it that this is an unhealthy camp because players are camping it 24 hours a day? Or is it a healthy camp with players taking small shifts appropriate for their timezone and spreading the burden of covering until the boss spawns?


Implementing a list/roll system would address these issues, ensuring that all players have a fair opportunity to camp DS without the need for unhealthy, prolonged camping sessions.You said earlier that this is much like Angry Goblin, same quest chain and all, so it should also be a /random.

To roll for Angry Goblin you need the Report to Skargus, which means you have already fractioned and done Shady Goblin. You know the players alongside you have put in effort to get that far into the quest chain.

Can I ask what the equivalent is for Drusella Sathir?

Say we have players show up to her hallway/camp ready to /rand 1000. How do you know any of those players have factioned or even completed the Regal Band of Bathezid? How do you know they've passed the Angry Goblin step?

All you're doing is killing a boss and looting an item. There is nothing to prove you are at that step. And without that.. you're going to have absolutely everyone possible showing up, because the item is worth a lot. People with IP exemptions would be tempted to log multiple accounts cause each one gets a roll.

People think angry is bad when it's an 8 hour window and you must be at that step to roll? What happens when its an exact spawn time, no window, and absolutely anybody can show up because you have no way of proving they're ready to turn in the urn.

Easily 100-200 people in Charasis, guaranteed. That's dozens of people trying to levitate across the gap. Dozens of people pulling aggro cause they're either not double invis or their invis drops. Dozens of people pulling trains either purposely or accidentally because no matter what the train paths through Drusella camp to reset.

So once again, I ask you - have you actually thought your idea through? Or are you just upset at GG and want to change the rules in your favor as a solo enchanter?

[Toxigen]

tough luck get fucked

[berbax]

tough luck get fucked

This request pertains to the green server, not blue (as it seems you're mostly blue focused). Your comment doesn't provide any constructive feedback or contribute to the discussion. If you have useful input to offer, feel free

[Allishia]

URN discord is the way, dkp instead of a roll so it is fair based on effort put in, not /RNG. I'm sure brool would be happy to help y'all set one up. Really fixed blue and eliminated that greedy farm crew that was shafting their own guildys too lmao. Also no need to involve csr that way, you can just out compete them

[Ripqozko]

URN discord is the way, dkp instead of a roll so it is fair based on effort put in, not /RNG. I'm sure brool would be happy to help y'all set one up. Really fixed blue and eliminated that greedy farm crew that was shafting their own guildys too lmao. Also no need to involve csr that way, you can just out compete them

you are the greedy farm crew, bda sucked

[Ruien]

This request pertains to the green server, not blue (as it seems you're mostly blue focused).

We are sharing the blue URN system because it's the best solution to the problem you are trying to solve. There is no reason you could not implement it on green.

This matters to the blue server as well, because if green starts doing a roll, then someone will say "blue should be a roll too - just look at green". Do not call any system which invites anyone to join "elitist".

We are against changing DS to a /random roll, we have good reasons to be against it, and we have communicated those reasons effectively and respectfully. Drop the discussion of changing DS to a /random roll and focus instead on implementing an URN discord like Blue has.

[fullmetalcoxman]

Big surprise, the people profiting from the current system who have the means to maintain a round the clock sock don't want any changes. DS should be brought in line with other quest bottlenecks like ring 8/10, scout and shady/angry.

Agreed, /random, while not perfect, at least eliminates some of the insanity

[berbax]

We are sharing the blue URN system because it's the best solution to the problem you are trying to solve. There is no reason you could not implement it on green.

This matters to the blue server as well, because if green starts doing a roll, then someone will say "blue should be a roll too - just look at green". Do not call any system which invites anyone to join "elitist".

We are against changing DS to a /random roll, we have good reasons to be against it, and we have communicated those reasons effectively and respectfully. Drop the discussion of changing DS to a /random roll and focus instead on implementing an URN discord like Blue has.

Discussion will continue as long as people are providing input and considering changes. While the URN discord on Blue has been suggested, it seems to have its own set of issues based on what I've read. Implementing a /random roll system aligns with other adjustments in the quest line, like the changes made for shady/angry.

Here is the core set of issues I've found from blue server with their URN implementation:


Urn cost remains high
Guilds are pemanently farming the item still
Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server (as it relates to guilds swapping players in and out to keep it locked)

[fortior]

Big surprise, the people profiting from the current system who have the means to maintain a round the clock sock don't want any changes. DS should be brought in line with other quest bottlenecks like ring 8/10, scout and shady/angry.

Ring 8, scout, and shady/angry are rolls because of clickfests sucking (due to autofire/cheating), not because they’re quest bottlenecks. Lodi is a bottleneck and FTE. Stormfeather is a bottleneck and not a random roll but a camp. Magi is a bottleneck and FTE. Fear golems are bottlenecks and FTE, this was even the case pre fear revamp (when irak could solo one). Spinning DS as some sort of odd one out is either willfully dishonest or done out of ignorance.

This is an attempt by a player uninterested in multiplayer EQ to, through appealing to GMs, remove gameplay from the game.

[Zuranthium]

Project 1999 is here to emulate Everquest as we experienced it "back in the day" and instituting rules that just award people things for showing up is bogus.

Everquest "back in the day", as soon as the Play Nice Policy was instituted, dictated that camps must be shared. That means you only get 1 chance at a spawn and afterward it goes to the next person in line.

If p99 was actually following Classic rules, then people would need to take turns killing the hallway spawn, and whoever's turn it is when Drusella Sathir spawns is who gets the rights to fight her.

[loramin]

In what world would any of these not be true?


Urn cost remains high



Urn costs will remain high no matter what system you implement. It has nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with the fact that only one urn enters the server every few days ... but a lot more players than that who want it. Supply and demand.


Guilds are pemanently farming the item still


"Guilds" will "permanently farm" the item whatever the system, because players at the high-end tend to be guilded, and guilded players (like non-guilded players) want loot for their character. But this isn't some conspiracy: it's just people playing the game.


Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server (as it relates to guilds swapping players in and out to keep it locked)


This is the only point you've succeeded at making in this entire thread ... but you still haven't even tried to engage with the fact that while /list might give more opportunities to individuals, it would make things a lot harder for groups of players.

[berbax]

Ring 8, scout, and shady/angry are rolls because of clickfests sucking (due to autofire/cheating), not because they’re quest bottlenecks. Lodi is a bottleneck and FTE. Stormfeather is a bottleneck and not a random roll but a camp. Magi is a bottleneck and FTE. Fear golems are bottlenecks and FTE, this was even the case pre fear revamp (when irak could solo one). Spinning DS as some sort of odd one out is either willfully dishonest or done out of ignorance.

This is an attempt by a player uninterested in multiplayer EQ to, through appealing to GMs, remove gameplay from the game.

Fortior, you’re very vocal on this topic, and I appreciate the engagement. The roll system for camps like Ring 8, scout, and shady/angry was implemented after player agreements due to the difficulties associated with spawn variance and tracking. If you have evidence supporting the claim that it was primarily due to cheating, I’d be interested to see it. However, if cheating was indeed a significant issue, it indicates that certain individuals had an unfair advantage over the rest of the community.

The core issue here isn’t vastly different from the DS camp situation. Specific groups are monopolizing DS, creating a bottleneck by permanently camping it and selling the item. This monopolization is similar to the unfair advantages that led to roll systems in other camps.

Addressing these bottlenecks through a roll system would ensure fairness and provide equitable opportunities for all players. Your concerns about maintaining multiplayer gameplay are valid, but it’s essential to recognize that adapting rules to current game realities can enhance the overall experience for the community.

[berbax]

In what world would any of these not be true?

Urn costs will remain high no matter what system you implement. It has nothing to do with the system, and everything to do with the fact that only one urn enters the server every few days ... but a lot more players than that who want it. Supply and demand.

"Guilds" will "permanently farm" the item whatever the system, because players at the high-end tend to be guilded, and guilded players (like non-guilded players) want loot for their character. But this isn't some conspiracy: it's just people playing the game.

This is the only point you've succeeded at making in this entire thread ... but you still haven't even tried to engage with the fact that while /list might give more opportunities to individuals, it would make things a lot harder for groups of players.

Hi Loramin,

If you don't like my suggestions, I invite you to provide an alternative solution to the problem. You’re right that people will continue to farm and sell the urn, but a random roll system would give many more players a chance to obtain the item they need.

As I’ve mentioned multiple times, this proposal aims to address several issues:

Player Health: Reducing the need for unhealthy 24-hour camping sessions.
Community Health: Promoting a fairer environment.
Community Fairness and Opportunity: Ensuring more players have access to the camp, not just those who can dedicate excessive time.

While it may not eliminate the selling of urns, it should improve the overall community experience. Thank you for your feedback. As always, I’m open to alternative suggestions that could also address these concerns.

[fortior]

Fortior, you’re very vocal on this topic, and I appreciate the engagement. The roll system for camps like Ring 8, scout, and shady/angry was implemented after player agreements due to the difficulties associated with spawn variance and tracking. If you have evidence supporting the claim that it was primarily due to cheating

From the 2017 scout player agreement forum thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282447):

"3) IN THE EVENT YOU CLICKFEST. You will be petitioned. You are breaking the playerwide agreement. The entire reason we're doing this is to keep it fair for the people showing up. Clickfest has been proven to be a shit show and I've heard it from a former GM that they are aware people can edit .ini files to insta-turn in. We will not be clickfesting anymore."

This is the umpteenth time you've just asserted something as truth while demanding proof yourself or dismissing any negative message as 'not speaking for the community'. Boiled down to the basics, this is a thread written by a solo enchanter who wants special rules for an expensive item camp because competing for it is too difficult.

[berbax]

From the 2017 scout player agreement forum thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282447):

"3) IN THE EVENT YOU CLICKFEST. You will be petitioned. You are breaking the playerwide agreement. The entire reason we're doing this is to keep it fair for the people showing up. Clickfest has been proven to be a shit show and I've heard it from a former GM that they are aware people can edit .ini files to insta-turn in. We will not be clickfesting anymore."

This is the umpteenth time you've just asserted something as truth while demanding proof yourself or dismissing any negative message as 'not speaking for the community'. Boiled down to the basics, this is a thread written by a solo enchanter who wants special rules for an expensive item camp because competing for it is too difficult.

Hi Fortior, welcome back, and thank you for that link. It appears it has nothing to do with the change for Angry, but for Scout. Although good to know why scout was changed, I'm not certain if that applies to Angry, and I see other articles and comments about the difficulty with the camp (note that Angry is also in the same quest chain as DS). Once again, thank you for your feedback.

I can't really make heads or tails of that last paragraph or what you're talking about, but thank you anyway.

[Ripqozko]

This is the umpteenth time you've just asserted something as truth while demanding proof yourself or dismissing any negative message as 'not speaking for the community'. Boiled down to the basics, this is a thread written by a solo enchanter who wants special rules for an expensive item camp because competing for it is too difficult.

This, he doesnt want discussion he wants his way, even after several has told him they dont agree.

[Zuranthium]

Boiled down to the basics, this is a thread written by a solo enchanter who wants special rules for an expensive item camp because competing for it is too difficult.

WHAT "competition"?? There is no fucking competition with p99 ruleset. Whoever is there simply owns the camp.

[berbax]

This, he doesnt want discussion he wants his way, even after several has told him they dont agree.

Hello again Ripqozko! Sorry you're once again vastly wrong, here's the list I'm maintaining currently:

Possible changes, unsure, or not roll:
Mewlio
Loramin
Fingurs
Magicfest
Servirus06 (URN)
Allishia (URN)
Ruien (URN)

No change:
FatMice
Ripqozko
Fortior
Enjchanter

Yes change:
Sajbert
Berbax
Digz
Swiftduke
Surkk
fullmetalcoxman
Hyjal
Galach
Zling

Maybes?:
Zuranthium (can't tell)
Redfern


P99 Discord Poll so far:
https://i.imgur.com/f4rpjtO.jpeg

Edit: Looks like just a couple of you are just very, very...very vocal.

[Ssouky]

The core issue here isn’t vastly different from the DS camp situation. Specific groups are monopolizing DS, creating a bottleneck by permanently camping it and selling the item. This monopolization is similar to the unfair advantages that led to roll systems in other camps.

Riot monopolizing Vulak/Doze and creating a bottleneck towards my BiS Artist challenge by permanently organizing to kill it themselves is an unfair advantage that leads to... nothing ?

Do what you got to do to get what you want to get. Join them. I don't really agree with the URN system but at least they did something about the camp. They organized, they now have it. Perfect or not, they did something.

I don't understand why, because you can't have your thing because the game is scarce and doesn't comply with your wants (there is no NEED in EQ...), the system should be changed.

You would have been miserable during TMO time with no access to your epic. The good thing is you probably could have bought it with $$$...

[berbax]

Riot monopolizing Vulak/Doze and creating a bottleneck towards my BiS Artist challenge by permanently organizing to kill it themselves is an unfair advantage that leads to... nothing ?

Do what you got to do to get what you want to get. Join them. I don't really agree with the URN system but at least they did something about the camp. They organized, they now have it. Perfect or not, they did something.

I don't understand why, because you can't have your thing because the game is scarce and doesn't comply with your wants (there is no NEED in EQ...), the system should be changed.

You would have been miserable during TMO time with no access to your epic. The good thing is you probably could have bought it with $$$...

Thanks for you feedback, I'm trying to improve the community as a whole to have a fair shot at these things, not just for my own advantage (that's why I've been meticulously keeping track of it). Thank you again.

[Mewlio]

You're only interested in participation trophies.

[Toxigen]

socialism has never worked, ever

[berbax]

Here's the real trick.

You don't actually need SWC or an urn.

You can beat the entire server and content without ever doing a benevolence wracked chord of the coldain frostreaver IV.

True! I agree with you. Although it would certainly help. Ancillary topic however, the point of the post if to put in a reform on the camp rules due to how it's being controlled.

[iksarking]

That is a big no on a change.

[loramin]

Honestly OP, this thread doesn't matter. What matters is what happens in-game ... but as someone who helped forge the Shady/Goblin Agreements, I promise you this: changing or setting player agreements is really, really hard.

It took awhile (weeks?) of me and others going to every shady spawn, talking to everyone there, getting them to all agree to the terms of a roll ... and then watching some asshole not agree, and we had to do it all over again the next day. And that was when the only "competition" was the (unpopular) clickfest.

If you want to set a player agreement on DS (which is what a roll would be), all you have to do is get every player who wants to do DS to agree to a roll, and then keep it happening for a few weeks (the staff have never specified how long it takes to permanently set an agreement, but it seems to be "a few weeks").

I'd give up on the idea if I were you though: if you can't convince people here in the forum, I really don't think you're going to succeed at convincing everyone in-game.

[fortior]

Someone who actually engages with player responses instead of putting on a customer service voice and 'thanking for feedback' without displaying any sort of understanding could do this. OP seems to be under the impression that you just need to get enough forum/discord votes to will a GM enforced player agreement into existence.

[Toxigen]

Here's the real trick.

You don't actually need SWC or an urn.

You can beat the entire server and content without ever doing a benevolence wracked chord of the coldain frostreaver IV.

you can beat the server in kunark gear

[berbax]

Honestly OP, this thread doesn't matter. What matters is what happens in-game ... but as someone who helped forge the Shady/Goblin Agreements, I promise you this: changing or setting player agreements is really, really hard.

It took awhile (weeks?) of me and others going to every shady spawn, talking to everyone there, getting them to all agree to the terms of a roll ... and then watching some asshole not agree, and we had to do it all over again the next day. And that was when the only "competition" was the (unpopular) clickfest.

If you want to set a player agreement on DS (which is what a roll would be), all you have to do is get every player who wants to do DS to agree to a roll, and then keep it happening for a few weeks (the staff have never specified how long it takes to permanently set an agreement, but it seems to be "a few weeks").

I'd give up on the idea if I were you though: if you can't convince people here in the forum, I really don't think you're going to succeed at convincing everyone in-game.

Understood, thanks for the details from those other camps. Actually I didn't think the forum would help at all, but that's where CSR sent me. Appreciate the info on how you worked on those other changes though.

[berbax]

Someone who actually engages with player responses instead of putting on a customer service voice and 'thanking for feedback' without displaying any sort of understanding could do this. OP seems to be under the impression that you just need to get enough forum/discord votes to will a GM enforced player agreement into existence.

Fortior not only did I engage with you ad nauseum, but I described many of the points and arguments, and counters to things you were saying. It's a bit easier to read my responses without tinted sunglasses on, so if you need help finding my talking points throughout this post I can help with that, just let me know!

Also thanking you for your feedback, is a polite way of me saying: I get it dude, you don't want the change.

[fortior]

The main reason starting a player agreement for DS is way way different from starting one for scout/another clickfest turn-in is that the DS camp always has a winner/owner. There's always someone/a group who's currently guaranteed to win the next spawn, which is not like scout/ring 8/ring 10 etc.

[fortior]

Fortior not only did I engage with you ad nauseum, but I described many of the points and arguments, and counters to things you were saying. It's a bit easier to read my responses without tinted sunglasses on, so if you need help finding my talking points throughout this post I can help with that, just let me know!

Also thanking you for your feedback, is a polite way of me saying: I get it dude, you don't want the change.

I can find your talking points fine, they're just not good. Your response to 'you just want the expensive mq' was 'nuh uh'. You didn't reply to the examples of other quest bottlenecks which are FTE/non-roll camps, but you did to some guy listing ring 8/10/shady/angry. Your reply to me posting the thread directly stating that autofire/cheating was an important reason for the scout roll (scout roll being one of the examples you listed yourself) dismissed that because it wasn't proof of the reason for the angry/shady roll.

The admission above that you first went to CSR, then discord, then the forums, before even trying to get anyone on board in the actual game we're playing just shows you have no idea whatsoever about what you're trying to do.

[berbax]

I can find your talking points fine, they're just not good. Your response to 'you just want the expensive mq' was 'nuh uh'. You didn't reply to the examples of other quest bottlenecks which are FTE/non-roll camps, but you did to some guy listing ring 8/10/shady/angry. Your reply to me posting the thread directly stating that autofire/cheating was an important reason for the scout roll (scout roll being one of the examples you listed yourself) dismissed that because it wasn't proof of the reason for the angry/shady roll.

The admission above that you first went to CSR, then discord, then the forums, before even trying to get anyone on board in the actual game we're playing just shows you have no idea whatsoever about what you're trying to do.

Thank you for your feedback

[Ruien]

Hello,


Urn cost remains high
Guilds are pemanently farming the item still
Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server (as it relates to guilds swapping players in and out to keep it locked)


Maybe you just don't understand how URN discord works?

Urn cost remains high
The urn cost is entirely a function of supply and demand. Angry goblin is a /random roll and the Skargus head MQ is 100k. So, /random is not going to suddenly make Urns affordable.

Guilds are pemanently farming the item still
This is patently false. We have members of ALL of the top guilds in URN discord, as well as many unguilded individuals. Working together, we can compete against farm crews and win. The blue URN discord group has gotten 90%+ of the last 50 urns. And new members are welcomed every week.

Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server
This also is patently false. Each person in the discord is a separate individual, and time spent at the camp is tracked in an "active camp" channel, with a waiting list. As soon as anyone has hit their maximum quota of hours for the day, they are automatically replaced by the next person in the replacement queue. So anyone is able to "/rep add" themselves and jump in when their turn is up. When an Urn drops, the person present with the highest number of accumulated hours gets to loot it, and their hours drop to 0. The daily maximum quota and active group size can be adjusted if needed to ensure everyone has a fair opportunity to earn.

This system is so good, equitable, and effective that it provided the firepower needed to push dedicated farm crews and give everyone a fair shot at earning their Urn.

Finally, a group of people working together killing 5 mobs every 20-minute cycle is relaxing, not "unhealthy". There's a lot of casual conversation both in group and discord, and people pop in and out according to their schedule. Conversely, a random roll kills the community - you log in, roll, and /q; It's antithetical to the community aspect that this game exists for.

[fortior]

Finally, a group of people working together killing 5 mobs every 20-minute cycle is relaxing, not "unhealthy". There's a lot of casual conversation both in group and discord, and people pop in and out according to their schedule. Conversely, a random roll kills the community - you log in, roll, and /q; It's antithetical to the community aspect that this game exists for.

Yeah, huge fan of urn equity, early on in Green there was a crypt equity discord like this as well (hiero points). I would hate for high end loot in P99 to be reduced to a series of log-ins to parked toons, rolls, and then logging back out.

[Ripqozko]

Hello,



Maybe you just don't understand how URN discord works?

Urn cost remains high
The urn cost is entirely a function of supply and demand. Angry goblin is a /random roll and the Skargus head MQ is 100k. So, /random is not going to suddenly make Urns affordable.

Guilds are pemanently farming the item still
This is patently false. We have members of ALL of the top guilds in URN discord, as well as many unguilded individuals. Working together, we can compete against farm crews and win. The blue URN discord group has gotten 90%+ of the last 50 urns. And new members are welcomed every week.

Still does not provide a fair opportunity to all members of the server
This also is patently false. Each person in the discord is a separate individual, and time spent at the camp is tracked in an "active camp" channel, with a waiting list. As soon as anyone has hit their maximum quota of hours for the day, they are automatically replaced by the next person in the replacement queue. So anyone is able to "/rep add" themselves and jump in when their turn is up. When an Urn drops, the person present with the highest number of accumulated hours gets to loot it, and their hours drop to 0. The daily maximum quota and active group size can be adjusted if needed to ensure everyone has a fair opportunity to earn.

This system is so good, equitable, and effective that it provided the firepower needed to push dedicated farm crews and give everyone a fair shot at earning their Urn.

Finally, a group of people working together killing 5 mobs every 20-minute cycle is relaxing, not "unhealthy". There's a lot of casual conversation both in group and discord, and people pop in and out according to their schedule. Conversely, a random roll kills the community - you log in, roll, and /q; It's antithetical to the community aspect that this game exists for.

URN sucks too, VQ raised the price to 200k (maz and cambina in riot now) , urn competed took the camp and price stayed high. Before VQ raised the price you could buy one for 120k from the farmers. Bring back non VQ farmers.

[Ruien]

URN sucks too, VQ raised the price to 200k (maz and cambina in riot now) , urn competed took the camp and price stayed high. Before VQ raised the price you could buy one for 120k from the farmers. Bring back non VQ farmers.

All this demonstrates is that 120k is not (or is no longer) the market-clearing price for an Urn, and that more urns are demanded at that price than can be supplied. The beauty of URN discord is that I can choose to forgo buying the MQ if I think the price is too high and earn the Urn myself. When farm crews are in control, that is no longer an option, and monopoly pricing takes effect.

When the price of something goes up, there is often a knee-jerk inclination that the new, more-expensive price is "wrong" and the long-time cheaper price was "right". But that is not necessarily true; often, it's the old price that was "wrong" and the price adjustment comes as a result of the imbalance.

[Penish]

EQ isn't about being fair, get lost woke jokes - get unemployed and win

[Ripqozko]

All this demonstrates is that 120k is not (or is no longer) the market-clearing price for an Urn, and that more urns are demanded at that price than can be supplied. The beauty of URN discord is that I can choose to forgo buying the MQ if I think the price is too high and earn the Urn myself. When farm crews are in control, that is no longer an option, and monopoly pricing takes effect.

When the price of something goes up, there is often a knee-jerk inclination that the new, more-expensive price is "wrong" and the long-time cheaper price was "right". But that is not necessarily true; often, it's the old price that was "wrong" and the price adjustment comes as a result of the imbalance.

the only thing urn helps is folks that dont work like you

[Keebz]

URN system from blue +1

[baakss]

OP your proposal is still missing a "why". All you have in your "Argument for Rule Change" is a list with (essentially) one reason "I couldn't get DS, and a group of organized players could".

But that's a feature, not a bug. Solo people can't hold that camp down, because they can't keep the room clear. You need a group to clear the room and kill DS, so the system does have a list ... its just that you can't get on it simply by showing up (DS is not Scout) ... you have to "earn" the camp (ie. prove you're able to kill DS), by showing up early to it and holding it down until DS spawns.

It's unbelievably easy to train people out of DS, and unbelievably hard to ever have proof that it was you.

Drop mobs on the other side of the painting and they'll parade right through Drusellas camp. Drop an eyeball off the ledge at the zoneline and mobs will parade right through Drusellas camp. You don't even have to get close, and the people camping Drusella have virtually zero chance of catching you do it.

Considering this has happened twice in the last week on blue, maybe that's a good reason.


https://youtu.be/M_KqUCcy_rc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bcI-VT5H_w

[Duik]

Its only a 24/7 camp if you have no fucking friends.
Also, so what if some sweaty neckbeard spends 50hrs straight camping spawnX only to go LD and is later found hanging in his moms basement. Some other disappointment in their life would have driven them insane anyways.
Find some friends, ask to "solo" it with the proviso if you lose it they clean up your mess, and loot it.
You may excel at chantering but i fear your bottleneck will be the making friends part of the solo challenge quest.

[berbax]

Its only a 24/7 camp if you have no fucking friends.
Also, so what if some sweaty neckbeard spends 50hrs straight camping spawnX only to go LD and is later found hanging in his moms basement. Some other disappointment in their life would have driven them insane anyways.
Find some friends, ask to "solo" it with the proviso if you lose it they clean up your mess, and loot it.
You may excel at chantering but i fear your bottleneck will be the making friends part of the solo challenge quest.

I appreciate your feedback. As I mentioned in another post, I have already completed the solo challenge. My concern now is to advocate for more equality on the server. The camp is controlled primarily by two guilds, and for the last 32 days, by a third guild, all of which have the resources to hold it 24/7. This isn’t an issue of not having friends; it’s a systemic problem that affects the fairness and accessibility of the camp for the broader player base.

The current system creates an unhealthy environment and monopolizes opportunities, making it difficult for solo players, smaller groups, and frankly the remaining guilds besides the top 3 to participate. Implementing a roll system would address these issues, ensuring a fairer and more balanced experience for all players. Thank you for understanding the broader context and the reasons behind this proposal.

[Ripqozko]

I appreciate your feedback. As I mentioned in another post, I have already completed the solo challenge. My concern now is to advocate for more equality on the server. The camp is controlled primarily by two guilds, and for the last 32 days, by a third guild, all of which have the resources to hold it 24/7. This isn’t an issue of not having friends; it’s a systemic problem that affects the fairness and accessibility of the camp for the broader player base.

The current system creates an unhealthy environment and monopolizes opportunities, making it difficult for solo players, smaller groups, and frankly the remaining guilds besides the top 3 to participate. Implementing a roll system would address these issues, ensuring a fairer and more balanced experience for all players. Thank you for understanding the broader context and the reasons behind this proposal.

I will agree with the proposal if it abolishes URN on blue as well

[berbax]

I will agree with the proposal if it abolishes URN on blue as well

Toss a "Yes" onto that poll, and hopefully that can be the case

[PatChapp]

If dru was a roll there would be 100+ people logging in 10 seconds before tod.
Less than 1% chance to win the roll,for a 25(ish)% chance of an urn drop
No faction or prerequisite quest requirements. Dru is different than angry.
The trains would be hilarious though.

[Zuranthium]

So again, the actual classic Kunark/Velious era rules are that camps MUST be shared, on rotation. You get 1 chance at the spawn (the placeholder) in the order that you arrived, and then get moved to the back of the line after you had your turn.

Or if we are doing pre-Kunark or EQ circa 2010's and onward ruleset, then just DPS racing matters. The p99 ruleset is NEVER how Everquest has operated.

[Duik]

It's never about what they have. It's about what they can do to deny you.

[Cecily]

Don't be discouraged by the vocal minority here that doesn't support you, OP. Most of the players on both servers want the change you're proposing.

[Thiengy]

Urn camp was a bucket list item for me. It was something I never completed on live, and it was something I had hoped to do before I quit p99. It was quite exciting to transition from "this camp feels impossible" to "i understand how to do this, I could probably do solo with consumables, but maybe DS is too strong herself" to eventually feeling really comfortable with each mob type and eventually solo holding the camp for a full day and clearing Drusella solo as well, but no urn during my solo clear, big rip lol.

I enjoy the competitive aspects of p99 and some of the friendly competition I saw at the camp was always enjoyable. Over time I think player expectations have become a bit toxic with the feeling that being asked to clear is "rude" and that somehow there is an expectation to hold a camp with zero effort.I disagree that playing by the outlined rules is somehow toxic in nature. If you are holding the camp you should be expecting to clear it for a significant amount of time.

I don't personally feel that a single group/guild monopolizing the camp is a problem, as long as they have the manpower to clear the camp and have the appetite for 24hr round the clock clearing due to others desire for the camp.I do find it discouraging that those holding the camp may become offended by others asking them to clear as if it is personal. But in my eyes, this competition is the exciting part of p99. I would hate to see it reduced to a /rand or /list.

There is likely opportunities to improve the camp dynamics by ensuring players are present, box testing, better defined and CSR supported rule for when a clear has failed, and punishment for those who try to weaponize trains.

I do feel like this camp is likely out of reach for most as a solo adventure and that is an ok thing.It is good to have challenges that are a challenge. Adding 1 or 2 more capable players trivialize the camp, add a few more working in shifts and it's even easier.

[Elizondo]

It's never about what they have. It's about what they can do to deny you.

The Law of Pixels

It's been like this since day 1 of Blue

Loot atrophy keeps the top guild's grip on power on prime loot absolute

It's a tactic. Nobody wants to share.

[Jimjam]

I’d like to thank op for breathing life back into the ashes of the forum.

[Duik]

Urn: Ashes. Gold

[berbax]

Don't be discouraged by the vocal minority here that doesn't support you, OP. Most of the players on both servers want the change you're proposing.

I agree, I just have to get them to rally in on the change

[Jimjam]

I agree, I just have to get them to rally in on the change

No one person can speak for the server, but you can advocate for changes.

[berbax]

Urn camp was a bucket list item for me. It was something I never completed on live, and it was something I had hoped to do before I quit p99. It was quite exciting to transition from "this camp feels impossible" to "I understand how to do this, I could probably do solo with consumables, but maybe DS is too strong herself" to eventually feeling really comfortable with each mob type and eventually solo holding the camp for a full day and clearing Drusella solo as well, but no urn during my solo clear, big rip lol.

I enjoy the competitive aspects of p99 and some of the friendly competition I saw at the camp was always enjoyable. Over time I think player expectations have become a bit toxic with the feeling that being asked to clear is "rude" and that somehow there is an expectation to hold a camp with zero effort. I disagree that playing by the outlined rules is somehow toxic in nature. If you are holding the camp you should be expecting to clear it for a significant amount of time.

I don't personally feel that a single group/guild monopolizing the camp is a problem, as long as they have the manpower to clear the camp and have the appetite for 24hr round the clock clearing due to others' desire for the camp. I do find it discouraging that those holding the camp may become offended by others asking them to clear as if it is personal. But in my eyes, this competition is the exciting part of p99. I would hate to see it reduced to a /rand or /list.

There are likely opportunities to improve the camp dynamics by ensuring players are present, box testing, better defined and CSR-supported rules for when a clear has failed, and punishment for those who try to weaponize trains.

I do feel like this camp is likely out of reach for most as a solo adventure and that is an okay thing. It is good to have challenges that are a challenge. Adding 1 or 2 more capable players trivializes the camp; add a few more working in shifts and it's even easier.

I too enjoyed the challenge of holding the camp solo for hours, even clearing a named and killing DS. That feeling was mostly relief, though, and it took me two weeks of constant early (5 am) monitoring to get the opportunity (as shown in my video). So, I understand where you are coming from.

However, I think most people would agree that this particular camp highlights the toxic nature of the server. As you mentioned, adding 1 or 2 players trivializes the camp. The real difficulty lies in not being pushed out by larger guilds with players in different time zones monopolizing it for their own incentives (monetary or otherwise), as illustrated in my video with Mcreary’s explanation.

We are mostly grown adults, and it’s unreasonable to expect people to stay up 24 hours a day to get the urn in a game meant to be fun. The current system creates an environment where a few guilds can dominate the camp around the clock, making it nearly impossible for others to have a fair chance.

While competition can be exciting, it becomes problematic when it leads to monopolization and toxic behavior. Implementing a /rand or /list system would not only provide more players with a fair opportunity but also help mitigate the unhealthy camping practice currently in place.

I believe improving the camp dynamics with better-defined rules and support from CSR would enhance the experience for everyone. Ensuring fairness and reducing the monopolization would make the game more enjoyable and accessible, which is ultimately what we all want.

[Toxigen]

Embrace URN.

[servirus06]

It's unbelievably easy to train people out of DS, and unbelievably hard to ever have proof that it was you.

Drop mobs on the other side of the painting and they'll parade right through Drusellas camp. Drop an eyeball off the ledge at the zoneline and mobs will parade right through Drusellas camp. You don't even have to get close, and the people camping Drusella have virtually zero chance of catching you do it.

Considering this has happened twice in the last week on blue, maybe that's a good reason.


https://youtu.be/M_KqUCcy_rc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bcI-VT5H_w

sorry to say but with fraps and logs it can be caught and the petiton will go in and you will have a beautiful suspension if not ban if its a repeated offense. you can ask mazeril how his suspension went. for doing exactly what you are saying cant be tracked

[Lostfaction]

I bought two urn mq’s with DaP funds. Props to anyone who wants to camp a spawn for 24 hours keep on farming those babies and I’ll keep buying them

[servirus06]

Anyways this thread is senseless now. people have explained to you in multiple ways, that DS cant be like scout/ angry / shady / ring 8 roll, the main reason being that she has around a 40% drop rate of urn, and I'm telling you I have seen it not drop for 7 days straight. there would be no way to track which day and also if people would even care if they won that day, if u won 6 days before and didn't get.

other issue is being a roll, the massive and constant trains just before roll, so only people with FD classes could effectively roll.

Lastly unlike scout/ shady/ angry/ and ring roll, you can literally have nothing done with quest in progression, just have the key to charasis to get in zone, which is super easy to get, and win the roll and you got an urn you cant even use to complete your quest, so I'm guessing its purely for sale and to just keep taking alts to do the same which is what farm crews did to create demand and sell at higher prices, it also give chance for exempted accounts to log more than 1 since its impossible to know if 2 people actually rolling or just one hitting enter on both keyboards. Does that really sound fair to all?

This is my last post in this thread I hope you are able to find something better than URN group to make it more fair but, everything that has been proposed does not work at all for the supposed points you are trying to address, but you also seem stuck on what you proposed, and disregarding working ideas. URN group isn't perfect and changes keep being made to make it as fair and efficient as possible, but its the closest to perfection we have been able to create so that anyone is able to actually get their urn, without having to drop 120k+ plat for each one

Bunch of people complaining of not enough urns to buy, I think I said this before, most people that join urn are to get their quest completion. that means they will work to get their stuff done, which means the urn they got will not go to market. If you wanna buy one you have to wait for people that decide to keep going for profit, you can't be crying no urns selling lol, no one is gonna not finish their quest to sell to you :)

(Number of unique URNers 87) this is last year statistic, when system was put to work, that means that more than 90 people got at least 1 urn last year, since bot wasn't done when it started and it was done with pen and paper, be it for their use or for sale, but I'm sure more than 75% used for themselves and the rest that were gained were most likely used on alts also. not even counting the one Brool gave away just because he is awesome. So yeah there is no doubt urns have been or shortage for sales, because people are getting them for themselves.

[berbax]

Anyways this thread is senseless now. people have explained to you in multiple ways, that DS cant be like scout/ angry / shady / ring 8 roll, the main reason being that she has around a 40% drop rate of urn, and I'm telling you I have seen it not drop for 7 days straight. there would be no way to track which day and also if people would even care if they won that day, if u won 6 days before and didn't get.

other issue is being a roll, the massive and constant trains just before roll, so only people with FD classes could effectively roll.

Lastly unlike scout/ shady/ angry/ and ring roll, you can literally have nothing done with quest in progression, just have the key to charasis to get in zone, which is super easy to get, and win the roll and you got an urn you cant even use to complete your quest, so I'm guessing its purely for sale and to just keep taking alts to do the same which is what farm crews did to create demand and sell at higher prices, it also give chance for exempted accounts to log more than 1 since its impossible to know if 2 people actually rolling or just one hitting enter on both keyboards. Does that really sound fair to all?

This is my last post in this thread I hope you are able to find something better than URN group to make it more fair but, everything that has been proposed does not work at all for the supposed points you are trying to address, but you also seem stuck on what you proposed, and disregarding working ideas. URN group isn't perfect and changes keep being made to make it as fair and efficient as possible, but its the closest to perfection we have been able to create so that anyone is able to actually get their urn, without having to drop 120k+ plat for each one

Bunch of people complaining of not enough urns to buy, I think I said this before, most people that join urn are to get their quest completion. that means they will work to get their stuff done, which means the urn they got will not go to market. If you wanna buy one you have to wait for people that decide to keep going for profit, you can't be crying no urns selling lol, no one is gonna not finish their quest to sell to you :)

(Number of unique URNers 87) this is last year statistic, when system was put to work, that means that more than 90 people got at least 1 urn last year, since bot wasn't done when it started and it was done with pen and paper, be it for their use or for sale, but I'm sure more than 75% used for themselves and the rest that were gained were most likely used on alts also. not even counting the one Brool gave away just because he is awesome. So yeah there is no doubt urns have been or shortage for sales, because people are getting them for themselves.


The thread currently has a poll going that seems to be doing decently in favor the change, so I wouldn't say it's senseless in the slightest. If I see overwhelming support for Blue's URN idea, I can start another agreement for that one in particular.

In regards to trains: there's already a pretty decent system (as someone already mentioned) for reporting that type of behavior. Remember, even if you win the roll in this scenario you still have to be able to kill DS, so not sure you're going to see a ton of people sitting there.

I can't really speak to the success/failures of URN on blue, seems like so far it's a lot of mixed feelings.

[Ruien]

The thread currently has a poll going that seems to be doing decently in favor the change, so I wouldn't say it's senseless in the slightest. If I see overwhelming support for Blue's URN idea, I can start another agreement for that one in particular.

In regards to trains: there's already a pretty decent system (as someone already mentioned) for reporting that type of behavior. Remember, even if you win the roll in this scenario you still have to be able to kill DS, so not sure you're going to see a ton of people sitting there.

I can't really speak to the success/failures of URN on blue, seems like so far it's a lot of mixed feelings.

Just to be clear: Blue's URN system does not require any new rule change or player agreement. You can implement it today without any additional red tape.

There's no need for a new poll- just set it up and go. Brool even offered to provide the bot code for you; that's something that took a fair bit of development work initially.

[Ripqozko]

URN sucks dont make that mistake on green

[PatChapp]

If they implemented a roll it would have to have the same agreement as skargus,you would stay for the kill otherwise only the few classes that can solo dru would be able to do it.
If less than 100 people regularly showed up I would be astounded. No prerequisites at all, small chance at 250k item, people would do it daily.

[berbax]

If they implemented a roll it would have to have the same agreement as skargus,you would stay for the kill otherwise only the few classes that can solo dru would be able to do it.
If less than 100 people regularly showed up I would be astounded. No prerequisites at all, small chance at 250k item, people would do it daily.

Makes sense, although I doubt the price stays at 250k as the item becomes more accessible to the rest of the server. If we are going to hypothesize that 100 people show up daily, we can also make the same hypothesis that the price tag goes down also.

[Jimjam]

If they implemented a roll it would have to have the same agreement as skargus,you would stay for the kill otherwise only the few classes that can solo dru would be able to do it.
If less than 100 people regularly showed up I would be astounded. No prerequisites at all, small chance at 250k item, people would do it daily.

Cool as urn may be imo the benefit of 2 servers is 2 cultures so there should be a different solution to each problem on the servers.

[PatChapp]

The price is driven by supply,which would be largely unaffected unless they also increased the drop rate.
Urn prices won't be changed much,if at all.
Right not there is lots of demand and none for sale, next urn on the market could easily hit 300.

[Toxigen]

also this thread is fail w/o a bush towers vote option

[berbax]

The price is driven by supply,which would be largely unaffected unless they also increased the drop rate.
Urn prices won't be changed much,if at all.
Right not there is lots of demand and none for sale, next urn on the market could easily hit 300.

This is a lot of theorizing for my taste, but I'll try to elaborate. The high price of the urn is directly tied to the monopolization of the spawn by a single group or guild (on repeat for long periods of time). A recent example you're aware of I'm sure is your own guild holding it for ~34 days now 24/7 with an acquisition I heard of around 15 urns (nice). This monopolization creates an artificial scarcity, driving up prices due to the lack of access for the broader player base.

You're right about the supply and demand part as a basic economic principle. In this case within the last 34 days Castle controls the camp, dictates the supply, releasing urns into the market at their discretion (or not at all), which inflates the price.

Furthermore, when access to the camp is limited to a select few, the demand from the larger player base remains unmet. This imbalance between high demand and artificially restricted supply causes the price inflation. Over the past six months the price of the urn has escalated significantly (seems almost a 30% increase over 9 months also).

Implementing a fairer system, such as a roll or list, would democratize access to the camp, increasing the supply of urns available to the general player base. This would help stabilize prices, as more players would have the opportunity to obtain the urn directly rather than relying on the market controlled by a few.

The current system perpetuates an inflated price due to monopolization and restricted access, not because of natural market forces. A more equitable approach would address this issue, benefiting the entire community by making the urn more accessible and reasonably priced. Overall, this is a little too much speculation for my liking.

[Toxigen]

imagine using the word equitable in a conversation about EQ

people are soft as shit

[Ruien]

Implementing a fairer system, such as a roll or list, would democratize access to the camp, increasing the supply of urns available to the general player base. This would help stabilize prices, as more players would have the opportunity to obtain the urn directly rather than relying on the market controlled by a few.


No, this system is not fairer, because it puts people who have invested 0 effort on an equal footing with people who would invest 100+ hours to earn their Urn.

So, your goal is to put Urns in the hands of people who don't really want them in the hopes that they hit the market instead. Then, the optimal way to get an Urn goes from actually doing DS to instead buying the Urn using funds acquired by, say, farming prismatic scales in ST.

Conclusion: Even if your proposal did lower Urn MQ prices by the logic you presented, that would only be because you're stealing urns from people willing to put in effort and handing them to people who log in once per day on an alt for 15 seconds for the sole intent of hitting a mini jackpot. That's a terrible trade.

[berbax]

imagine using the word equitable in a conversation about EQ

people are soft as shit

Hi Toxigen, thanks for your input, if you are having trouble understanding I can explain it to you on the side. Otherwise if you're just trying to insult, then thank you for feedback, don't forget to vote.

[berbax]

No, this system is not fairer because it puts people who have invested 0 effort on an equal footing with people who would invest 100+ hours to earn their Urn.

So, your goal is to put Urns in the hands of people who don't really want them in the hopes that they hit the market instead. Then, the optimal way to get an Urn goes from actually doing DS to instead buying the Urn using funds acquired by, say, farming prismatic scales in ST.

Conclusion: Even if your proposal did lower Urn MQ prices by the logic you presented, that would only be because you're stealing urns from people willing to put in effort and handing them to people who log in once per day on an alt for 15 seconds for the sole intent of hitting a mini jackpot. That's a terrible trade.

Your concern about effort versus reward is understandable, but the current system rewards monopolization rather than true effort. A roll or list system would democratize access, ensuring that everyone has a fair chance without having to camp for excessive, unhealthy periods.

This change addresses the artificial scarcity created by a few guilds controlling the camp, which drives up prices. By increasing supply through fairer access, we can stabilize prices and make the urn more accessible.

The goal isn't to reduce the effort required but to ensure that effort is rewarded fairly, promoting a healthier and more inclusive community. This system would still require engagement, just without the need for 24/7 camping.

In summary, the proposed system aims for balanced gameplay, fair access, and a healthier community.

[Toxigen]

Hi Toxigen, thanks for your input, if you are having trouble understanding I can explain it to you on the side. Otherwise if you're just trying to insult, then thank you for feedback, don't forget to vote.

EQ isn't fair. Sorry you don't got Drusella solo artist kill.

Consider Quarm I heard they do a lot of hand-holding and equitable things there.

[berbax]

EQ isn't fair. Sorry you don't got Drusella solo artist kill.

Consider Quarm I heard they do a lot of hand-holding and equitable things there.

Hi Toxigen, I solo'd DS on 06/28, you can watch that in the video provided in the original post. Thank you again!

[magicfest2]

This discussion seems to be a bit stuck due to a similar issue to what I mentioned in passing earlier — you seem quite good at completely ignoring things that are explained in great detail, or else mentioning them and then redirecting discussion away immediately as if they were resolved.

1) Even if I thought change was a good idea, /list isn’t it. List is actually so much worse than even the status quo — the list system is probably *the single most toxic system on p99* and the most detrimental to player health that you claim to be concerned with. Instead of allowing for people to swap out and help each other, one single character must be online and active for the entire camp period, which is absolutely insane. I did the list for Summon Corpse when ST tried to lock it down before Sky opening, and I was literally playing 12h/day and swapping out with an IRL friend for the other 12, and maintained our spot on the list for TWO FULL WEEKS. I still wake up sometimes in sweats thinking I missed an afk check. No person should be subjected to that kind of trauma. As you can see too, all it did was advantage guilds that had shared credentials for bots they could pass out and share the effort. Since the item in both cases is essentially free to trade (or MQ) there is no problem just using any random shared bot for this. Continuing to mention /list as a viable alternative makes it impossible for me to take your posts seriously.

2) Multiple people have tried to explain some Economics 101 concepts but you still appear to not get it. The supply is fixed. The demand is larger than supply. Changing who gets the item does not affect the price. Maybe with an example it would be easier:

* Players A, B, C are a farm crew.
* Players D-Z want urns for SWC.


In the case where players A/B/C each get an urn over the course of a week:

* 3 Urns are sold with 23 prospective buyers.

In the case where players A/B/C don’t even play, and D/E/F get urns there are multiple outcomes as well:

* D/E/F all use their urns for SWC. Zero urns are sold this week. Players G-Z are buying but the market supply is empty.
* D uses urn and E/F sell. 2 urns are available for 21 prospective buyers.

In either case, there are still a ton of buyers and very limited availability. Thus in both cases, the price is actually likely to go up since the urn:buyer ratio gets worse!
Unless you think the drop rate of urns matches the number of prospective buyers, the price will not drop significantly or possibly at all. This example still works even if we limit the interested parties down to D-M or something, it really doesn’t matter unless the supply meets or exceeds demand.

3. Random is bad for all the reasons people have mentioned, which it hurts me to repeat, but in summary:

* there are no enforceable prerequisites to roll
* the drop is not guaranteed, in fact statistically from our large sample set it seems closer to 20-25% — even if I was rolling against 10-20 people like at ring 8, winning for a 25% chance is dumb, it’s random on top of random
* it would need something like the scout/angry agreement that everyone rolling must help with the kill, which is difficult to enforce (I see people /q at both every time already) and if you’ve done scout much, you can see how hilariously badly it can go even in a relatively safe environment, while DS is train central and can be an exceedingly difficult recovery

In conclusion: my opinion is that the only rational option for change would be an equity based system like URN, which is very similar actually to how my current group operates, just with more open membership. I’d probably be fine with that. However, I don’t ACTUALLY think anything needs to change other than having the current player agreement clarified and more consistently enforced. Sure, Castle is holding it now, but I say this as their direct competition: good for them! They organized well and they’re doing something impressive as a group in an MMO. Eventually they’ll get tired or slip up or realize that very few people ever actually camped there for more than 12 hours and it will go back to trading hands on the regular. And hey, it seems like a bunch of them are getting urns to use for their quest (not resale), so literally the only thing that would change if you got your way is which people got their SWC, to random people instead of people putting in effort. We care about this… why?

[sajbert]

The price is driven by supply,which would be largely unaffected unless they also increased the drop rate.
Urn prices won't be changed much,if at all.
Right not there is lots of demand and none for sale, next urn on the market could easily hit 300.
P99 economics aren't as simple as supply and demand.

Urn simply being available to more people who want to put in the effort means less would be inclined to pay 250k for one.

The small amount of players farming urns more or less has a monopoly and could dictate whatever price they wanted. Once a price expectation is established it tends to stay there unless there's any large mismatch of supply and demand and multiple sellers pressed to sell.

[7thGate]

This could change the price. The urns are not being awarded to the people who value them the most in platinum right now, they're being awarded to the people who are most willing to help hold the camp 24/7 with friends. Plenty of people getting urns likely would not be willing to pay 250k for one.

If all the Urns hit the market, it would cause the demand curve to drop some because you instead allocate the urns more to the people willing to bid up the price in plat, which then takes them out of the bidding and exposes the lower valued part of the demand curve. The loss would be that it would no longer be possible to guarantee an urn without spending plat in a fixed amount of time.

Regardless, the actual win here would be that a roll based system means you don't have to waste everyone's time holding a camp nonstop, you just show up for 5 minutes 100 times or so until you get your urn. The total amount of work necessary from everyone involved to get the same amount of urns go down a lot.

[berbax]

This discussion seems to be a bit stuck due to a similar issue to what I mentioned in passing earlier — you seem quite good at completely ignoring things that are explained in great detail, or else mentioning them and then redirecting discussion away immediately as if they were resolved.

1) Even if I thought change was a good idea, /list isn’t it. List is actually so much worse than even the status quo — the list system is probably *the single most toxic system on p99* and the most detrimental to player health that you claim to be concerned with. Instead of allowing for people to swap out and help each other, one single character must be online and active for the entire camp period, which is absolutely insane. I did the list for Summon Corpse when ST tried to lock it down before Sky opening, and I was literally playing 12h/day and swapping out with an IRL friend for the other 12, and maintained our spot on the list for TWO FULL WEEKS. I still wake up sometimes in sweats thinking I missed an afk check. No person should be subjected to that kind of trauma. As you can see too, all it did was advantage guilds that had shared credentials for bots they could pass out and share the effort. Since the item in both cases is essentially free to trade (or MQ) there is no problem just using any random shared bot for this. Continuing to mention /list as a viable alternative makes it impossible for me to take your posts seriously.

2) Multiple people have tried to explain some Economics 101 concepts but you still appear to not get it. The supply is fixed. The demand is larger than supply. Changing who gets the item does not affect the price. Maybe with an example it would be easier:

* Players A, B, C are a farm crew.
* Players D-Z want urns for SWC.


In the case where players A/B/C each get an urn over the course of a week:

* 3 Urns are sold with 23 prospective buyers.

In the case where players A/B/C don’t even play, and D/E/F get urns there are multiple outcomes as well:

* D/E/F all use their urns for SWC. Zero urns are sold this week. Players G-Z are buying but the market supply is empty.
* D uses urn and E/F sell. 2 urns are available for 21 prospective buyers.

In either case, there are still a ton of buyers and very limited availability. Thus in both cases, the price is actually likely to go up since the urn:buyer ratio gets worse!
Unless you think the drop rate of urns matches the number of prospective buyers, the price will not drop significantly or possibly at all. This example still works even if we limit the interested parties down to D-M or something, it really doesn’t matter unless the supply meets or exceeds demand.

3. Random is bad for all the reasons people have mentioned, which it hurts me to repeat, but in summary:

* there are no enforceable prerequisites to roll
* the drop is not guaranteed, in fact statistically from our large sample set it seems closer to 20-25% — even if I was rolling against 10-20 people like at ring 8, winning for a 25% chance is dumb, it’s random on top of random
* it would need something like the scout/angry agreement that everyone rolling must help with the kill, which is difficult to enforce (I see people /q at both every time already) and if you’ve done scout much, you can see how hilariously badly it can go even in a relatively safe environment, while DS is train central and can be an exceedingly difficult recovery

In conclusion: my opinion is that the only rational option for change would be an equity based system like URN, which is very similar actually to how my current group operates, just with more open membership. I’d probably be fine with that. However, I don’t ACTUALLY think anything needs to change other than having the current player agreement clarified and more consistently enforced. Sure, Castle is holding it now, but I say this as their direct competition: good for them! They organized well and they’re doing something impressive as a group in an MMO. Eventually they’ll get tired or slip up or realize that very few people ever actually camped there for more than 12 hours and it will go back to trading hands on the regular. And hey, it seems like a bunch of them are getting urns to use for their quest (not resale), so literally the only thing that would change if you got your way is which people got their SWC, to random people instead of people putting in effort. We care about this… why?

I have not been ignoring key details; I’ve been trying to address the main issues raised, so I'll go ahead and continue with yours.

List System Concerns:
I understand your concerns about the list system's toxicity. However, the current system also promotes unhealthy behavior by encouraging 24/7 camping. A well-designed roll or list system with proper breaks and shared efforts can mitigate these issues. It’s about finding a balanced solution. As already mentioned many times, random has be implemented for other parts of the quest chain.

Economics of Supply and Demand:
Your economic argument misses the impact of monopolization. When a single guild controls the camp, they manipulate supply to keep prices high. By democratizing access, we reduce monopolistic control, which can help stabilize prices. This isn’t about basic supply and demand; it’s about addressing artificial scarcity created by monopolization.

Random Roll:
Enforceability and drop rates are valid concerns, but they can be managed with community agreements and GM support, as seen in other successful camps. The goal is to ensure fair participation without creating chaos.

Regarding the insult about not understanding economics, I’m well aware of supply and demand principles. My argument focuses on how monopolization distorts these principles, leading to artificially high prices. A fairer system would address this distortion. If you feel you'd like a response to anything further feel free to let me know. I see you already voted "No", so if any of this changes your decision that would be great, if not then thanks for you feedback.

[magicfest2]

“A well designed list system with proper breaks and shared efforts” is absolutely not “/list” so if you mean a player run list please be careful to differentiate it from /list which is a specific code-implemented feature of the server. I’m going to assume from here on that you DO NOT mean /list when you refer to lists. Hopefully that’s correct.

As far as the current Castle camp, they aren’t monopolizing the supply to drive up prices — they’re literally the ones using the urns in most cases. It isn’t a conspiracy to make prices go up. It’s just a normal reduction of supply, whether it’s Castle doing it or the server as a whole, the difference is just which players get them, at which point it is a question of whether it is effort based or RNG based. I gave an example before which may have seemed abstract but is based directly on months of observation. Essentially the second case happened when my group originally took over and had the camp for a great deal of a three month period. That’s when you saw prices go up to 250k — because the first 20 or so urns we got were almost exclusively not for resale, so the supply for several months almost completely dried up. That is what happens. When more resellers are camping it, the prices go down. I’m sure you are correct that there are different mindsets when it comes to buying or camping — some players likely will camp instead of buy (I’m an example of this, because I literally was dead broke 100% of the time, so helped form a group for this), but a lot of people really would likely still just pay instead of trying to figure it out or put in the rather large time commitment as there are much easier ways to make money over the long term with lower effort. I understand that just like real world economics, there are so many factors that even the best economists are honestly right about as often as wrong. I’m pretty confident from having watched an actual example of this play out though, so we can revisit in a year of you manage to get a change (assuming we’re both still around) and one of us can say “I told you so”. XD

[berbax]

“A well designed list system with proper breaks and shared efforts” is absolutely not “/list” so if you mean a player run list please be careful to differentiate it from /list which is a specific code-implemented feature of the server. I’m going to assume from here on that you DO NOT mean /list when you refer to lists. Hopefully that’s correct.

As far as the current Castle camp, they aren’t monopolizing the supply to drive up prices — they’re literally the ones using the urns in most cases. It isn’t a conspiracy to make prices go up. It’s just a normal reduction of supply, whether it’s Castle doing it or the server as a whole, the difference is just which players get them, at which point it is a question of whether it is effort based or RNG based. I gave an example before which may have seemed abstract but is based directly on months of observation. Essentially the second case happened when my group originally took over and had the camp for a great deal of a three month period. That’s when you saw prices go up to 250k — because the first 20 or so urns we got were almost exclusively not for resale, so the supply for several months almost completely dried up. That is what happens. When more resellers are camping it, the prices go down. I’m sure you are correct that there are different mindsets when it comes to buying or camping — some players likely will camp instead of buy (I’m an example of this, because I literally was dead broke 100% of the time, so helped form a group for this), but a lot of people really would likely still just pay instead of trying to figure it out or put in the rather large time commitment as there are much easier ways to make money over the long term with lower effort. I understand that just like real world economics, there are so many factors that even the best economists are honestly right about as often as wrong. I’m pretty confident from having watched an actual example of this play out though, so we can revisit in a year of you manage to get a change (assuming we’re both still around) and one of us can say “I told you so”. XD

Your response essentially proves my point about monopolization: whether the intent is to use or sell, the outcome is the same - restricted access for the broader player base, leading to scarcity and high prices.

The fact that urn prices increased to 250k when your group held the camp for several months, primarily using urns rather than selling them, illustrates the impact of limited access on the market. When fewer urns are available for resale, prices naturally increase due to scarcity, regardless of the intent behind the monopolization. It also shows that it’s not "the server as a whole" creating this scarcity, but rather a minority of individual groups. Therefore, the "normal reduction of supply" is actually not normal; it’s a result of monopolization by specific groups.

Edit: I want to reiterate that the intent of my responses is not to argue about market economics, but to show how it’s not providing a fair and healthy environment for the community, which is why the agreement is being proposed.

[Ruien]

Edit: I want to reiterate that the intent of my responses is not to argue about market economics, but to show how it’s not providing a fair and healthy environment for the community, which is why the agreement is being proposed.

I think this is where the disconnect is coming from. You are equating "lower price" with "fairer, more accessible Urn for the general community".

There are definitely people who are able to spend more time than platinum, and (even at a reduced price) would be locked out of an Urn if you require them to pay for it. So, while it increases the availability for some people, it reduces availability for others. There's no free lunch here.

An equity-based system like URN breaks the monopoly without locking out these people.

Finally, there seems to be a running assumption by yourself and others (like 7thGate) that holding the camp is a waste of time, and that everyone would be better off without it. But actually you are removing gameplay - this is EQ, and I think we can all agree that camping items with friends is core gameplay. It's /random that's foreign and unnatural. Maybe people who want /random really just want to be playing a different game, because they don't seem to enjoy p99 as it is currently implemented. Some of us actually enjoy the DS camp and would prefer that you don't attempt to destroy gameplay and replace it with 50-100 alts that log in once per day and /q afterward.

[berbax]

I think this is where the disconnect is coming from. You are equating "lower price" with "fairer, more accessible Urn for the general community".

There are definitely people who are able to spend more time than platinum, and (even at a reduced price) would be locked out of an Urn if you require them to pay for it. So, while it increases the availability for some people, it reduces availability for others. There's no free lunch here.

An equity-based system like URN breaks the monopoly without locking out these people.

Finally, there seems to be a running assumption by yourself and others (like 7thGate) that holding the camp is a waste of time, and that everyone would be better off without it. But actually you are removing gameplay - this is EQ, and I think we can all agree that camping items is core gameplay. It's /random that's foreign and unnatural. Maybe people who want /random really just want to be playing a different game, because they don't seem to enjoy p99 as it is currently implemented. Some of us actually enjoy the DS camp and would prefer that you don't attempt to destroy gameplay and replace it with 50-100 alts that log in once per day and /q afterward.

Ruien, I appreciate your perspective, but there are a points and misconceptions to fix. The goal isn’t just to lower prices but to ensure fair access. Monopolization restricts access and creates unfair conditions where only those with excessive time can benefit. Fairness means everyone, regardless of their available time or money, has a chance.

An equity-based system like URN might break the monopoly, but it still doesn’t address the core issue of restricted access, or high prices (from what I understand). A roll or list system democratizes access, giving more players a fair shot without excluding anyone based on their time or wealth. Again, I'm not an expert on what you guys are advocating, but it appears to be met with mixed reviews. Even the poll image posted in a previous comment highlights that.

This isn’t about removing camping from the game. It’s about making the process healthier and more accessible. Fair systems enhance gameplay by allowing more players to participate meaningfully without promoting unhealthy behavior.

Lastly, random rolls aren’t foreign to EQ. They’ve been used successfully in other camps to ensure fairness and reduce toxic behavior. This discussion is about creating a fair and healthy environment, not just about item prices.

[Ruien]

Ruien, I appreciate your perspective, but there are a points and misconceptions to fix. The goal isn’t just to lower prices but to ensure fair access. Monopolization restricts access and creates unfair conditions where only those with excessive time can benefit. Fairness means everyone, regardless of their available time or money, has a chance.

An equity-based system like URN might break the monopoly, but it still doesn’t address the core issue of restricted access, or high prices (from what I understand). A roll or list system democratizes access, giving more players a fair shot without excluding anyone based on their time or wealth. Again, I'm not an expert on what you guys are advocating, but it appears to be met with mixed reviews. Even the poll image posted in a previous comment highlights that.

This isn’t about removing camping from the game. It’s about making the process healthier and more accessible. Fair systems enhance gameplay by allowing more players to participate meaningfully without promoting unhealthy behavior.

Lastly, random rolls aren’t foreign to EQ. They’ve been used successfully in other camps to ensure fairness and reduce toxic behavior. This discussion is about creating a fair and healthy environment, not just about item prices.

Hold on - I just don't get this point. What do you mean that URN doesn't address the core issue of restricted access?

I'm talking about URN network as literally free for anyone to join, who can log hours on their own schedule, and over a few months of camping with friends you will eventually be able to loot an Urn, and that urn can be either used or sold per your preference. How does that prevent participation?

[fortior]

It doesn't directly and unequivocally support what the OP wants so it's wrong and bad

[Ruien]

What I am hearing is that the OP has more money than time, and so he is fighting for a system that produces the cheapest possible Urn MQs, at the expense of locking out people who would prefer to camp the item instead of buy it.

[berbax]

Hold on - I just don't get this point. What do you mean that URN doesn't address the core issue of restricted access?

I'm talking about URN network as literally free for anyone to join, who can log hours on their own schedule, and over a few months of camping with friends you will eventually be able to loot an Urn, and that urn can be either used or sold per your preference. How does that prevent participation?

You're right it might be a solution, and I think I've mentioned this before if we are getting support for an URN implementation, then I'm open to changing the player agreement. I don't fully understand (as I mentioned a few times now) the issues with the URN group, and only see the sort of mixed reviews of it.

[berbax]

It doesn't directly and unequivocally support what the OP wants so it's wrong and bad

Fortior, it’s not about dismissing ideas that don’t directly support my viewpoint. The goal is to create a fair and healthy environment for all players. The URN network on Blue’s server, while promising, has received mixed reviews and hasn’t yet shown the broad support needed to be a definitive solution.

I’m open to revising the player agreement if there’s significant community backing for it. Until then, proposing a roll or list system is about ensuring fairness and reducing monopolization, which benefits everyone. Misrepresenting my motives as simply wanting support for my ideas is unhelpful and divisive.

Let’s focus on finding the best solution for the community rather than making incorrect assumptions about each other’s motives. Thanks for engaging in the discussion.

[Ruien]

You're right it might be a solution, and I think I've mentioned this before if we are getting support for an URN implementation, then I'm open to changing the player agreement. I don't fully understand (as I mentioned a few times now) the issues with the URN group, and only see the sort of mixed reviews of it.

I honestly have not heard any well-reasoned criticism of the URN system. The only criticism I have heard comes from people who want an Urn without putting in time, money, and/or effort, and I don't think such arguments are valid or reasonable.

[berbax]

What I am hearing is that the OP has more money than time, and so he is fighting for a system that produces the cheapest possible Urn MQs, at the expense of locking out people who would prefer to camp the item instead of buy it.

Ruien, your assumption is incorrect. I was at the DS camp every day for two weeks trying to get an opportunity for my DS attempt (please refer to my original post). I don’t have the money to buy an urn (as many others don't either), and I’m advocating for a fairer system to give more players a chance to participate without monopolization.

At this point the conversation is going in circles a bit, so if there's something new you want clarification on, let me know. Thanks for your feedback

[Ripqozko]

I honestly have not heard any well-reasoned criticism of the URN system. The only criticism I have heard comes from people who want an Urn without putting in time, money, and/or effort, and I don't think such arguments are valid or reasonable.

i have 4 pairs of cords and think urn is dumb. hope that helps.

[RubixRex]

< - - - - Quarm is that way

Bro wants to keep losing players to Quarm instead of fixing problems

neckbeards are unbearable

[Lynch]

I aint going to read the whole thread so bare with me if some of this has already gone over.

There's a lot of conflicting requests in OP. The content is trivial, yet when you had the camp and were 'pressured' into clearing the room (which, on blue, is the rule to maintain camp) and you had to cap. You want to solo content, but play an mmo. You're a 'solo artist' but refuse to suffer for your art.

What do you think is going to happen if the rule gets turned into rolls? "Hey guys I just want to solo her, you can log off" sorry that happened recently on blue, and that guild got SUCH a stern warning.

If you want to solo her as an achievement, fine, but being unable and unwilling to cooperate with others to help you achieve that goal (like many others camping ds) isnt what everquest is about (unless it's due to time and availability, and it's your last piece, then it's grats bladefrenzy.) You might want to look into switching your guild or earn social credit with others to help you achieve this goal.


As a rebuttal to your claims:

Player Health: The current situation promotes unhealthy gaming habits, with players camping DS non-stop.
You're right camping non stop is unhealthy, probably why you should have friends and cooperate by rotating for breaks.

Toxicity: The high competition and harassment, as exemplified by my experiences with "Good Guys," foster a toxic environment.
Cant say for green but the only way to counter this is to beat them at their own game, maneuver around them, and dont cause conflict.

Fair Access: The DS camp’s urn is valuable for all classes, similar to other high-demand items like Journeyman Boots. Current rules allow high-end guilds to monopolize the camp, excluding others.
At least on blue, when the current occupant gets their drop then they should rotate to the next in line. Can they lie and say they never get an urn? yes but that would be fraud and bannable under pnp, if you think that could be the case I'm sure guides would love to intermittently sleuth on drops.

Economic Impact: The urn sells for approximately 250k on the green server, and monopolization by a few guilds may drive real-money trading (RMT) influences.
'May' is the key word here, do you have evidence of this RMTing? It is a rare and valuable drop, like many other raid obtained droppable gear. What evidence is there that this won't make the price worse? Head of Skargus MQ is last listed at 125k on green and it's a prereq for urn turn in.

Balancing Gameplay: DS camp difficulty is now trivial, making a list/line/roll system more reasonable and beneficial for a fair distribution of opportunities.
We went over this, it's not trivial, you capped out, you've stated that groups have wiped multiple times to just continually clearing the room.

[RubixRex]

wow strange

all the people with primal loot and monopoly on everything worthwhile don't want rules to change

weird

[Duik]

Jesus Haytch Christ.

[berbax]

I aint going to read the whole thread so bare with me if some of this has already gone over.

There's a lot of conflicting requests in OP. The content is trivial, yet when you had the camp and were 'pressured' into clearing the room (which, on blue, is the rule to maintain camp) and you had to cap. You want to solo content, but play an mmo. You're a 'solo artist' but refuse to suffer for your art.

What do you think is going to happen if the rule gets turned into rolls? "Hey guys I just want to solo her, you can log off" sorry that happened recently on blue, and that guild got SUCH a stern warning.

If you want to solo her as an achievement, fine, but being unable and unwilling to cooperate with others to help you achieve that goal (like many others camping ds) isnt what everquest is about (unless it's due to time and availability, and it's your last piece, then it's grats bladefrenzy.) You might want to look into switching your guild or earn social credit with others to help you achieve this goal.


As a rebuttal to your claims:


You're right camping non stop is unhealthy, probably why you should have friends and cooperate by rotating for breaks.


Cant say for green but the only way to counter this is to beat them at their own game, maneuver around them, and dont cause conflict.


At least on blue, when the current occupant gets their drop then they should rotate to the next in line. Can they lie and say they never get an urn? yes but that would be fraud and bannable under pnp, if you think that could be the case I'm sure guides would love to intermittently sleuth on drops.


'May' is the key word here, do you have evidence of this RMTing? It is a rare and valuable drop, like many other raid obtained droppable gear. What evidence is there that this won't make the price worse? Head of Skargus MQ is last listed at 125k on green and it's a prereq for urn turn in.


We went over this, it's not trivial, you capped out, you've stated that groups have wiped multiple times to just continually clearing the room.

Thanks for your input, sorry but many of these points have been discussed in great detail so I likely won't go over them again. I will say "trivial" meaning, anyone with 1-2 friends can do this, a solo artist has it on a hard difficulty for a reason.

[berbax]

Update on the Situation:

I’m currently taking a closer look at Blue’s URN system and speaking with them to gather more details. This system may serve as an alternative to the /random system, which seems to have worked out for them. Based on the feedback so far, many (not all) of the "No" votes appear to come from the following groups:

1. GG players involved in the DS camp.
2. Urn sellers (likely associated with GG, though it’s hard to confirm).
3. Members of Blue’s URN group who don’t want to see changes that could impact their system.
4. Unknowns, including some new accounts that were recently created for the forums. There's even one that looks like it might be a bot account voting.

Given the interest in not disrupting Blue’s system (and considering that the URN setup on Blue seems to align with efforts Kingdom has tried to implement), I’ll be investigating this further. I’ll update here with more information as I learn more.

[rjw513]

Cool, tysm for making Norrath a better world

Can a 60 Paladin with ec gear break into HS ent, maybe even solo a few in the easy wings?

[zelld52]

Welp now every raid target is DS rules. See what ya did?

[Toxigen]

op might be DSM

[fortior]

Instead of even entertaining the thought that his idea sucks and might not have universal acclaim, OP immediately moves to discredit anyone voting against what he wants.

[doobie]

Kill or be killed. No fucking participation trophies.

[Otsego]

However, the current system also promotes unhealthy behavior by encouraging 24/7 camping. A well-designed roll or list system with proper breaks and shared efforts can mitigate these issues. It’s about finding a balanced solution. As already mentioned many times, random has be implemented for other parts of the quest chain.I feel you're a bit misguided in this way of thinking. I understand that from a solo player perspective, the idea of you having to camp a 24 hour spawn feels quite unhealthy, since that burden falls entirely on you to maintain presence and hold the camp over that day. But the same is not true for the groups/guilds/alliances holding the camp, the ones you are trying to prevent by your agreement.

At least with our group, we split the burden of covering long hours by having people rotate in and out based on their free time and real life commitments. They can literally pop online and offline at any time, even if they only contribute for 5 minutes at a time. The team actually creates a more healthy environment for them because the entire burden does not fall on them.

It has also had the benefit of creating friendships within guilds/communities that did not exist prior to the group forming. Normally we saw each other on raids, did our roles, then left and did other things. We may talk in passing while in groups, but it was never at the level it has been while camping Drusella. This has been a deeper bonding experience and each person allowing the others around them to share the burden of maintaining the camp. People begin to work around each other's schedules and availability. People log on to help or take over for others. This has fostered friendships and deeper bonds within our alliance and has been a positive and healthy experience.

A /random system like at angry would just promote people looking for easy RNG-based profit, a jackpot - it introduces greed where greed wasn't even the focus before (at least for our group, who is looking to help each other complete their quests and become stronger). It would definitely cause more urns to hit the market - you are correct - but who is to say that's even a good thing? Multiquesting and the selling of MQs, if anything, is discouraged by the GMs and they will not help you if your MQ goes wrong. Its just bypassing the need to do the quest yourself, usually in exchange for platinum. I don't judge anyone who goes this route - it's fine, but you're acting like MQs are an entitlement or the greater good here - at the direct expense of those genuinely trying to complete the quest themselves legitimately.

I've said this previously, but you keep acting like this is the same as Angry or Shady Goblin rolls, just because they are in the same quest chain. When both of those require you to be factioned in order to participate and you also prove you are at that point in the quest line by having the item to be turned in to both of those mobs.

That is not the same for Drusella. You do not have to prove you are factioned to loot an urn off the boss. You do not have to prove you have even completed the Regal Band quest. Absolutely anybody can come just to /random if they have the key to zone in.

That means you're gonna have 100-200 people, some utilizing their IP exemptions, all trying to levitate into east (and failing), causing trains, and even those that make it will have one of their invis's drop, or not even know they need double invis, or can double invis to begin with, and there's just going to be a bloodbath in the east wing, with people trying to recover their corpses and making things worse in the process. That's not even considering the trains that are not accidental. How about the people who see the opportunity to kill dozens of people? There are so many ways to cause trains into the east wing without much or any proof that it came from you.

And then what happens to all the people who win but no urn drops? "Oh well"

That's a good system? You could theoretically let a winner carry over to future days until an urn drops, but that person may not show up. Or they may lie and say no urn dropped when one did. There's too much room for players to abuse the system, but the worst part is going to be the zone turning into train city at all hours of the day because a lottery is now being held there. People will try to park during off hours and fail, so it won't only affect Drusella's spawn hour.

More than likely though your dice roll victory only affects the Drusella that spawns that day, so you take your shot and might walk away empty handed - the difference there though is that the victory will not often translate into you completing that part of the quest, where with the already implemented dice rolls it does guarantee that.

Have you even considered any of this? Or are you only concerned about your solo perspective in a zone that is meant to be for group content and teamwork?

This game is not meant to coddle you or cater to your desires for easy access to things. When you look at Everquest camps overall, you can easily make the argument that most of them are a timesink and likely a little bit unhealthy. You know this going in though.. it's not a secret that this game is brutal in those ways. A lot of us like that aspect of it. If we wanted easy mode we'd have played WoW or other games instead.

[berbax]

Instead of even entertaining the thought that his idea sucks and might not have universal acclaim, OP immediately moves to discredit anyone voting against what he wants.

Fortior, the intention wasn’t to get into a debate about the breakdown of the votes, but rather to ensure we’re considering all perspectives, especially when clear biases could influence the outcome. Recognizing these biases helps us focus on what’s fair for the broader community.

What’s more important is the rest of the message, which is about investigating the Blue URN system as a potential alternative that could address the concerns on both sides. My goal here is to find a solution that benefits the community as a whole, rather than getting bogged down in divisive discussions.

Let’s keep the focus on finding the best path forward for everyone involved. Thanks for your input.

[berbax]

I feel you're a bit misguided in this way of thinking. I understand that from a solo player perspective, the idea of you having to camp a 24 hour spawn feels quite unhealthy, since that burden falls entirely on you to maintain presence and hold the camp over that day. But the same is not true for the groups/guilds/alliances holding the camp, the ones you are trying to prevent by your agreement. At least with our group, we split the burden of covering long hours by having people rotate in and out based on their free time and real life commitments. They can literally pop online and offline at any time, even if they only contribute for 5 minutes at a time. The team actually creates a **more healthy** environment for them because the entire burden does not fall on them.

It has also had the benefit of creating friendships within guilds/communities that did not exist prior to the group forming. Normally we saw each other on raids, did our roles, then left and did other things. We may talk in passing while in groups, but it was never at the level it has been while camping Drusella. This has been a deeper bonding experience and each person allowing the others around them to share the burden of maintaining the camp. People begin to work around each other's schedules and availability. People log on to help or take over for others. This has fostered friendships and deeper bonds within our alliance and has been a positive and healthy experience.

A /random system like at angry would just promote people looking for easy RNG-based profit, a jackpot - it introduces greed where greed wasn't even the focus before (at least for our group, who is looking to help each other complete their quests and become stronger). It would definitely cause more urns to hit the market - you are correct - but who is to say that's even a good thing? Multiquesting and the selling of MQs, if anything, is discouraged by the GMs and they will not help you if your MQ goes wrong. Its just bypassing the need to do the quest yourself, usually in exchange for platinum. I don't judge anyone who goes this route - it's fine, but you're acting like MQs are an entitlement or the greater good here - at the direct expense of those genuinely trying to complete the quest themselves legitimately.

I've said this previously, but you keep acting like this is the same as Angry or Shady Goblin rolls, just because they are in the same quest chain. When both of those require you to be factioned in order to participate and you also prove you are at that point in the quest line by having the item to be turned in to both of those mobs.

That is not the same for Drusella. You do not have to prove you are factioned to loot an urn off the boss. You do not have to prove you have even completed the Regal Band quest. Absolutely anybody can come just to /random if they have the key to zone in.

That means you're gonna have 100-200 people, some utilizing their IP exemptions, all trying to levitate into east (and failing), causing trains, and even those that make it will have one of their invis's drop, or not even know they need double invis, or can double invis to begin with, and there's just going to be a bloodbath in the east wing, with people trying to recover their corpses and making things worse in the process. That's not even considering the trains that are not accidental. How about the people who see the opportunity to kill dozens of people? There are so many ways to cause trains into the east wing without much or any proof that it came from you.

And then what happens to all the people who win but no urn drops? "Oh well"

That's a good system? You could theoretically let a winner carry over to future days until an urn drops, but that person may not show up. Or they may lie and say no urn dropped when one did. There's too much room for players to abuse the system, but the worst part is going to be the zone turning into train city at all hours of the day because a lottery is now being held there. People will try to park during off hours and fail, so it won't only affect Drusella's spawn hour.

Have you even considered any of this? Or are you only concerned about your "solo perspective" in a zone that is meant to be for group content and teamwork

Otsego, I appreciate that your group may be having a positive experience camping DS, but it’s important to consider how this impacts the rest of the community. While your group benefits from sharing the burden and fostering deeper bonds, this system effectively monopolizes the camp, making it inaccessible to others who aren’t part of these organized groups.

If you’re part of Castle, as it seems you may be, this might explain why you’re having a good experience right now. But this setup isn’t creating a positive environment for anyone outside of GG, Castle, or sometimes Kingdom, who historically are dominating the camp. It’s crucial to recognize that the broader community isn’t sharing in these benefits, they’re instead being locked out.

My focus is on finding a solution that works for everyone, ensuring that all players have a fair chance, whether they’re in a group like yours or not. That’s why I’m currently looking into the Blue URN system, as it may provide a more balanced open approach.

Lastly, my solo journey at DS has ended (as I've mentioned many times now), my goal is to address a much broader issue that promotes fairness and community health.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

[Otsego]

Economics of Supply and Demand:
Your economic argument misses the impact of monopolization. When a single guild controls the camp, they manipulate supply to keep prices high. By democratizing access, we reduce monopolistic control, which can help stabilize prices. This isn’t about basic supply and demand; it’s about addressing artificial scarcity created by monopolization.Again.. a bit misguided

No matter what you do, Drusella only spawns X number of times and drops Y number of urns at some percentage (lets be generous and say between 20-40%)

That doesn't change. Change the system all you want, but the community is only receiving that many urns for players to utilize.

If a system changes the urns from going from the hands of players willing to put in effort to players who win a RNG dice roll.. the demand for the urns does not change. All that changes is those players who were camping it now need to buy their urn instead, keep showing up to the dice roll, or give up on the quest entirely - which would be a shame, but would begin to happen a lot more often. It would balance out though, to be fair, because those not willing to put in effort would also receive urns.

Is it a good thing to move the urns from those willing to put in effort to those who are not?

That aside - no, we are not "monopolizing" in order to "manipulate supply and keep prices high". Don't think a single one of us even cares about the prices on the open market. We are farming to complete the quest and not have to buy from people who farm just to resell for their own profit.

(Not trying to villainize anyone who does this, it's fine, it's your time/effort, so it's your choice if you convert that into platinum - more power to you.)

The point is that the number of urns is not changing and those who previously farmed will still be in the pool of demand. So supply is stable.. demand is stable.. why would the market price change?

If anything, I'd actually make the argument that the supply of urns goes down. At least some who win the dice roll will leave the urn rotting in their bank, or intend to sell it but never sell it - maybe holding onto it for when prices raise in the future - who knows. They may intend to use it "someday" if they ever get factioned, but never do. They may win, then suddenly decide to quit or go inactive.

The thing changing here is that urns are going from people who were willing to put in the effort to farm them (immediate need), to people who may only be showing up to win a lottery/dice roll - people who may not even want the urn themselves.

Scarcity is not created by this "monopolization" you claim exists - at least not with my group. Scarcity exists because it's a 24 hour spawn and a low drop rate.

Nothing in your post here will ever change that. All I've seen is you using scare tactics to try to manipulate people into changing how it works so it better suits your solo play style.

I get it, I don't even hold that against you. It does suck potentially having to hold a 24 hour camp solo or with limited resources. Welcome to Everquest.

[Otsego]

Otsego, I appreciate that your group may be having a positive experience camping DS, but it’s important to consider how this impacts the rest of the community. While your group benefits from sharing the burden and fostering deeper bonds, this system effectively monopolizes the camp, making it inaccessible to others who aren’t part of these organized groups.You can choose to play the game solo, or not part of any group/team. But the burden falls on you to compensate for your self-imposed hard mode.

Groups are how it was intended to clear this content.

If you want to do it solo, you have my full support, but you have to step up and compete. Trying to get the rules changed to some RNG system to benefit you is not the answer, it's a cop-out.

(Absolutely no bad feelings toward you or anyone else here, I am just extremely blunt.)

[berbax]

Again.. a bit misguided

No matter what you do, Drusella only spawns X number of times and drops Y number of urns at some percentage (lets be generous and say between 20-40%)

That doesn't change. Change the system all you want, but the community is only receiving that many urns for players to utilize.

If a system changes the urns from going from the hands of players willing to put in effort to players who win a RNG dice roll.. the demand for the urns does not change. All that changes is those players who were camping it now need to buy their urn instead, keep showing up to the dice roll, or give up on the quest entirely - which would be a shame, but would begin to happen a lot more often. It would balance out though, to be fair, because those not willing to put in effort would also receive urns.

Is it a good thing to move the urns from those willing to put in effort to those who are not?

That aside - no, we are not "monopolizing" in order to "manipulate supply and keep prices high". Don't think a single one of us even cares about the prices on the open market. We are farming to complete the quest and not have to buy from people who farm just to resell for their own profit.

(Not trying to villainize anyone who does this, it's fine, it's your time/effort, so it's your choice if you convert that into platinum - more power to you.)

The point is that the number of urns is not changing and those who previously farmed will still be in the pool of demand. So supply is stable.. demand is stable.. why would the market price change?

If anything, I'd actually make the argument that the supply of urns goes down. At least some who win the dice roll will leave the urn rotting in their bank, or intend to sell it but never sell it - maybe holding onto it for when prices raise in the future - who knows. They may intend to use it "someday" if they ever get factioned, but never do. They may win, then suddenly decide to quit or go inactive.

The thing changing here is that urns are going from people who were willing to put in the effort to farm them (immediate need), to people who may only be showing up to win a lottery/dice roll - people who may not even want the urn themselves.

Scarcity is not created by this "monopolization" you claim exists - at least not with my group. Scarcity exists because it's a 24 hour spawn and a low drop rate.

Nothing in your post here will ever change that. All I've seen is you using scare tactics to try to manipulate people into changing how it works so it better suits your solo play style.

I get it, I don't even hold that against you. It does suck potentially having to hold a 24 hour camp solo or with limited resources. Welcome to Everquest.

I understand where you’re coming from, but there are some misconceptions in your argument. Yes, Drusella’s spawn and drop rates are fixed, but monopolization by a few groups limits access for the broader community, effectively reducing the supply that’s available to everyone. This isn’t just about RNG versus effort, it’s about creating a fairer system where more players have a chance without needing to camp for 24 hours straight.

While your group may not intend to manipulate supply, the result is the same: fewer urns circulate among the wider player base, maintaining scarcity and high prices. Even if the current system works for you, it doesn’t for the broader community, who are locked out by this monopolization.

In a well-balanced game, systems would be in place to prevent this kind of monopolization, ensuring a fair experience for all players. So when you say "welcome to EverQuest," it’s more accurate to say "welcome to Project1999," because this level of unchecked behavior wasn’t intended in the original game.

It’s difficult to address these issues if we can’t agree on what monopolization is or that it’s even happening. My goal is to create a more inclusive environment where everyone has a fair shot, not just those who can commit to extensive camping sessions. I look forward to seeing your opinions on the blue URN system I'm investigating.

Thank you again.

[Otsego]

I came to this camp pretty much solo myself. I was not able to compete with Good Guys who had more resources than I did and were a lot better geared than I was.

My answer? I adapted, made a plan, organized a merit-based system to fairly reward people for their time and help them complete a quest they had written off as "not possible, gotta buy the MQ".

Those people joined me and we have managed to find success.

There is strength in numbers and in friendship.

Our system has been running since early November 2023, just 2 months after I began playing P99. It may have taken more time than I wanted to really get going (I needed a lot of gear upgrades if I wanted to hold my own in east wing), but now that it has I am extremely happy with how it has benefited our team.

Literally anyone can do this - you have people from Blue server in this thread offering a very similar system and it is proven to work while also rewarding people who actually put in the effort to get their urn.

Your solution here is not only lazy, it is manipulative. You try to convince people it's just like Angry Goblin when it simply is nothing like it. It would change the entire zone, which is already unsafe, to being extremely unsafe/unplayable, just because you now want to host a daily lottery in it.

You are also extremely talented at replying to people without actually addressing the downsides of your proposal that they present to you. I'll give you credit for that.

[Jimjam]

Structure
Routine
Shared experiences
Repeated, positive, ongoing interactions
Belonging
Self efficacy
Self realisation/actualisation
Socialisation
Peer support
Growth/mastery mindset/motivation
Fosters community spirit
Daily grass touching
Results


Vs


Perpetually indoors
Isolation
Social/Peer comparison mindset/motivation
Dissonant sense of self
Sleeplessness
Paranoia
Delusions and hallucinations
Technically possible but no results except
Poop in a sock

[berbax]

I came to this camp pretty much solo myself. I was not able to compete with Good Guys who had more resources than I did and were a lot better geared than I was.

My answer? I adapted, made a plan, organized a merit-based system to fairly reward people for their time and help them complete a quest they had written off as "not possible, gotta buy the MQ".

Those people joined me and we have managed to find success.

There is strength in numbers and in friendship.

Our system has been running since early November 2023, just 2 months after I began playing P99. It may have taken more time than I wanted to really get going (I needed a lot of gear upgrades if I wanted to hold my own in east wing), but now that it has I am extremely happy with how it has benefited our team.

Literally anyone can do this - you have people from Blue server in this thread offering a very similar system and it is proven to work while also rewarding people who actually put in the effort to get their urn.

Your solution here is not only lazy, it is manipulative. You try to convince people it's just like Angry Goblin when it simply is nothing like it. It would change the entire zone, which is already unsafe, to being extremely unsafe/unplayable, just because you now want to host a daily lottery in it.

You are also extremely talented at replying to people without actually addressing the downsides of your proposal that they present to you. I'll give you credit for that.

The arguments I’ve been making aren’t about avoiding effort; they’re about addressing the monopolization that limits access for others. I’ve acknowledged the potential downsides of implementing a random roll or similar system, such as the risk of chaos or abuse, and have discussed ways to mitigate those risks. The issue isn’t that I’m ignoring the challenges, it's that the solutions I propose aren’t the ones you prefer because they would change the dynamics that currently benefit your group. If you need help finding my responses to these downsides, I can point you the in right direction.

The reality is that while your system may work well for those within it, it still leaves a large portion of the community out in the cold, unable to compete against well-organized groups. My goal is to find a solution that creates a more inclusive environment, where everyone has a fair shot at participation, not just those who are able to organize and dominate the camp.

Thanks for the discussion, and I hope we can keep working toward a solution that benefits the entire community.

[Otsego]

Monopolization restricts access and creates unfair conditions where only those with excessive time can benefit. Fairness means everyone, regardless of their available time or money, has a chance.Simply not true, we have multiple teammates that only contribute a few minutes or a few hours of their time. There is no demand for excessive time.

Like most other things in life though, the more time you devote to something, the faster progress you will make over someone else, but that doesn't mean it's a requirement.

This is just a scare tactic - manipulation

[berbax]

Simply not true, we have multiple teammates that only contribute a few minutes or a few hours of their time. There is no demand for excessive time.

Like most other things in life though, the more time you devote to something, the faster progress you will make over someone else, but that doesn't mean it's a requirement.

This is just a scare tactic - manipulation

Otsego, I think we’re going in circles here. It’s clear we have different perspectives on this issue. My focus is on ensuring broader community access and fairness, while it seems like your group’s experience has been positive within its own framework. I appreciate the discussion, but I think it’s best to leave it here. Thanks for your input.

[Otsego]

An equity-based system like URN might break the monopoly, but it still doesn’t address the core issue of restricted access, or high prices (from what I understand).Who was it that told you everything in EQ is meant to be unrestricted access?

The game is literally increasingly difficult encounters meant to restrict access until you become strong enough or are a part of a team strong enough to clear the content.

Can't do Kurns Tower naturally at level 8? Try leveling up to 11-12 or joining a group if only level 8.. suddenly the "restricted" zone becomes a lot more doable doesn't it?

You're seemingly pushing back against the thing that makes EQ what it is. Why?


As for high prices.. that's not going to change. Fixed supply, increasing demand.

I'd hate to break the bad news to you, but even if your lottery system is implemented.. some of the winners are not going to sell their urns..

Those urns are either going to be used and turned in by the winner, or remain unused in their banks.

The demand for them far outweighs the supply and that's never going to change.

It's a BIS item - it wasn't intended to be had by everyone. That's why it's on a 24 hour spawn and not a 20 minute and 30 second one.

[Otsego]

Ruien, your assumption is incorrect. I was at the DS camp every day for two weeks trying to get an opportunity for my DS attempt (please refer to my original post)."I went to a camp each day wanting to solo it and it was already camped."

Welcome to Everquest

Instancing is the solution you want, but it isn't a classic feature. Project Quarm and other servers do have instancing though. Without that, you have to wait for the camp to be unclamped so that you can claim it.

You'd still be camping a 24 hour spawn though.. as a solo player..

Really, the answer here is you need a team to help you.

You instead choose to both not join a team and then claim a 24 hour spawn is unhealthy..

[Otsego]

There's a lot of conflicting requests in OP. The content is trivial, yet when you had the camp and were 'pressured' into clearing the room (which, on blue, is the rule to maintain camp) and you had to cap. You want to solo content, but play an mmo. You're a 'solo artist' but refuse to suffer for your art.This is what I don't understand. There seems to be an unsaid motive with this proposal. If I had to guess I would say it would be to spite the Good Guys teams (which OP has talked negatively about quite a lot, while not saying the same things toward the Castle team, even though they seem to be doing the 24 hour camp thing OP doesn't like).

What do you think is going to happen if the rule gets turned into rolls? "Hey guys I just want to solo her, you can log off" sorry that happened recently on blue, and that guild got SUCH a stern warning. What's sad is OP is entirely blinded to the fact that this proposal would prevent anyone going forward from being able to complete a Solo Artist challenge for Drusella Sathir. Since there would always be people wanting to roll and kill her the moment she spawns every day going forward.

That, actually, may be the saddest realization I've now had while reading this thread.

OP cares a lot about Solo Artist, but is dooming anyone that comes after OP.

[Otsego]

I will say "trivial" meaning, anyone with 1-2 friends can do this, a solo artist has it on a hard difficulty for a reason.Wait, so you self admit you have it on hard difficulty for a reason, but you also simultaneously want the rules changed to suit you? So you don't want hard difficulty.. ? :confused:

[berbax]

This is what I don't understand. There seems to be an unsaid motive with this proposal. If I had to guess I would say it would be to spite the Good Guys teams (which OP has talked negatively about quite a lot, while not saying the same things toward the Castle team, even though they seem to be doing the 24 hour camp thing OP doesn't like).

What's sad is OP is entirely blinded to the fact that this proposal would prevent anyone going forward from being able to complete a Solo Artist challenge for Drusella Sathir. Since there would always be people wanting to roll and kill her the moment she spawns every day going forward.

That, actually, may be the saddest realization I've now had while reading this thread.

OP cares a lot about Solo Artist, but is dooming anyone that comes after OP.

Otsego, I think you’ve missed a crucial point. My investigation into the Blue URN system has shown that it actually promotes the ideal conditions for a Solo Artist attempt on DS. With less pressure from outside groups and a more organized approach, the camp can fully spawn, allowing for a genuine solo challenge, something that’s far from doomed.

In fact, this system might be better suited for Solo Artists than a random roll, and that’s part of why I’ve been looking into it, as I’ve mentioned in my previous posts. My goal has always been to find a solution that benefits everyone, and the Blue URN system could be just that.

It’s also worth pointing out the overwhelming hypocrisy in your accusations of "doom," "manipulation," and "scare tactics," while your own arguments (and phrasing) have been heavy on generating fear about changes that could benefit the broader community.

If you need more clarification or have questions, feel free to message me directly. Otherwise, I’d suggest moving on from cherry-picking sentences out of the last 19 pages and focusing on the broader issue at hand.

[Otsego]

Fortior, the intention wasn’t to get into a debate about the breakdown of the votes, but rather to ensure we’re considering all perspectives, especially when clear biases could influence the outcome. Recognizing these biases helps us focus on what’s fair for the broader community.Yes, let us recognize these biases.

You called out the no votes, but did no breakdown of yes votes - why?

It's because you're sending tells to everyone and anyone who will listen to you asking them to come here and support you by voting yes.

Your message in tells started off good, but you cannot in good faith say that how you close it off is not to cause bias and manipulation of the results.

Shame

[berbax]

Yes, let us recognize these biases.

You called out the no votes, but did no breakdown of yes votes - why?

It's because you're sending tells to everyone and anyone who will listen to you asking them to come here and support you by voting yes.

Your message in tells started off good, but you cannot in good faith say that how you close it off is not to cause bias and manipulation of the results.

Shame

Otsego, it’s disappointing to see you twist the situation like this. Yes, I reached out to people who were already aware of the ongoing discussion and who had expressed interest in the topic (like yourself). That’s hardly manipulation, it’s part of building a case and ensuring that all voices are heard, especially when the current system clearly benefits a small group at the expense of the broader community.

You’ve been consistently selective in your arguments, focusing on whatever fits your narrative while ignoring the broader issues of fairness and access that have been at the core of this discussion from the start. If you want to talk about biases, let’s recognize the ones that allow a few groups to monopolize content at the expense of everyone else.

If you’re genuinely interested in a constructive discussion, I’m open to it. But if this is just going to be about throwing accusations, then I think we’ve reached the end of a productive conversation.

[Otsego]

Otsego, I think you’ve missed a crucial point. My investigation into the Blue URN system has shown that it actually promotes the ideal conditions for a Solo Artist attempt on Drusella Sathir. With less pressure from outside groups and a more organized approach, the camp can fully spawn, allowing for a genuine solo challenge, something that’s far from doomed.I would agree that a structured merit-based system would be the ideal condition for a solo artist challenge. As that's what we are currently seeing within our own group.

My reply is based on your proposal in this post, where you want a /random system like Angry

Sounds like you need to create a new proposal. Or just join into the existing URN structure - which has an existing thread.

[berbax]

I would agree that a structured merit-based system would be the ideal condition for a solo artist challenge. As that's what we are currently seeing within our own group.

My reply is based on your proposal in this post, where you want a /random system like Angry

Sounds like you need to create a new proposal. Or just join into the existing URN structure - which has an existing thread.

Correct, and that is something I've now mentioned a few times. Once I have more information I'll ask to get the thread locked or closed if that system seems to be the better alternative.

[fortior]

Yes, let us recognize these biases.

You called out the no votes, but did no breakdown of yes votes - why?

It's because you're sending tells to everyone and anyone who will listen to you asking them to come here and support you by voting yes.

Your message in tells started off good, but you cannot in good faith say that how you close it off is not to cause bias and manipulation of the results.

Shame

LOL

I already thought this was the case since there were some old accounts with 0 posts who suddenly had their first few posts years after account creation in this thread, but thank you for the proof. This is gold, lol.

[berbax]

LOL

I already thought this was the case since there were some old accounts with 0 posts who suddenly had their first few posts years after account creation in this thread, but thank you for the proof. This is gold, lol.

Welcome back Fortior! I knew this thread wouldn’t be complete without your return. That screenshot is proof of what exactly? That I asked people to read the forum post and make their own decision? Not exactly the conspiracy you’re hinting at.

Interestingly enough, Otsego - who conveniently voted "No" - created their account the same day they cast their vote. So, if we’re questioning voter activity, maybe we shouldn’t have such a narrow focus.

Anyway, it’s great to see you back and rocking that tinfoil hat! It suits you perfectly ;)

[fortior]

I'm glad your recent posts show that you're giving up. It's straight up funny that you have such little IRL charisma that you have to resort to cold calling for votes, and then even misjudge what people actually want.

Again, the fact that you initially tried to strongarm the community into a new ruleset by directly proposing a camp rule change to CSR showed what sort of person you are right from the original post, and I'm glad you just kept digging from there.

[sajbert]

I'm glad your recent posts show that you're giving up. It's straight up funny that you have such little IRL charisma that you have to resort to cold calling for votes, and then even misjudge what people actually want.

Again, the fact that you initially tried to strongarm the community into a new ruleset by directly proposing a camp rule change to CSR showed what sort of person you are right from the original post, and I'm glad you just kept digging from there.

Wow, you're a toxic bugger aren't you?

Imagine getting so riled up about the idea of community sharing a spawn in an online video game.

[berbax]

I'm glad your recent posts show that you're giving up. It's straight up funny that you have such little IRL charisma that you have to resort to cold calling for votes, and then even misjudge what people actually want.

Again, the fact that you initially tried to strongarm the community into a new ruleset by directly proposing a camp rule change to CSR showed what sort of person you are right from the original post, and I'm glad you just kept digging from there.

Fortior, let’s set the record straight. I asked people to look at the proposal and make their own decision, nothing more. If you see that as "cold calling," then you’re misunderstanding the situation. The term you’re looking for is "raising awareness", not everyone frequents the forums like you do.

As for proposing a camp rule change, that’s part of the process in any community-driven discussion. Trying to paint that as something negative just shows how far you’re reaching.

I’m here to discuss ideas and improve the game experience for everyone, not to get dragged into personal attacks. If you have something constructive to add, I’m all ears.

[Toxigen]

just give SWC to every char that dings 60

problem solved

[fortior]

Wow, you're a toxic bugger aren't you?

Imagine getting so riled up about the idea of community sharing a spawn in an online video game.

There's nothing communal about a guy running to server staff to stop groups of people from voluntarily using their time and effort to hold down a camp. If you got the wool pulled over your eyes by his polite language then that's your problem.

[berbax]

There's nothing communal about a guy running to server staff to stop groups of people from voluntarily using their time and effort to hold down a camp. If you got the wool pulled over your eyes by his polite language then that's your problem.

Fortior, once again, you’re misrepresenting the situation. I didn’t just "run to server staff" to stop groups from holding down a camp. I petitioned the change, and I was instructed by the GMs to post on the forums and gather community feedback. After that, I asked the GMs what criteria were needed for the change to be considered.

There’s nothing underhanded about following the proper channels and seeking input from the community. If you’re going to criticize, at least get the facts straight.

[Otsego]

Otsego, it’s disappointing to see you twist the situation like this.No twisting. Just the reality.

You not just asking people to come to the thread and give their input.

You're asking people to come to the thread to support you, giving reason that CSR has sent you into a losing battle to garner sympathy. You then ask directly for positive support for your side.

You say you don't want bias, but you only point out flaws in the no votes and you only ask people to come to vote yes.

Are you blind to your own biases?

[Otsego]

You’ve been consistently selective in your arguments, focusing on whatever fits your narrative while ignoring the broader issues of fairness and access that have been at the core of this discussion from the start. If you want to talk about biases, let’s recognize the ones that allow a few groups to monopolize content at the expense of everyone else.Fair. I am extremely selective in what I respond to, but only because I notice and point out flaws in arguments. You directly lie about my group's intentions or label it unhealthy when it's the exact opposite. I will point it out and help correct your misunderstanding or supply information you don't yet have.

Once again you've used this as an opportunity to address none of the issues that are counter to your proposal.

Be transparent and be honest, then I'll have nothing to counter, and you'll likely also have my support - especially since the URN system is the near perfect solution to a camp like this - which is why many of the teams have implemented variations of it themselves.

[berbax]

No twisting. Just the reality.

You aren't asking people to come to the thread and give their input.

You're asking people to come to the thread to support you, giving reason that CSR has sent you into a losing battle to garner sympathy. You then ask directly for positive support for your side.

You say you don't want bias, but you only point out flaws in the no votes and you only ask people to come to vote yes.

Are you blind to your own biases?

Unfortunately wrong again, here are all my posts, which also follows the same form of advocacy and awareness as the message I sent you:

https://i.imgur.com/fvewuWd.png

[Otsego]

Interestingly enough, Otsego - who conveniently voted "No" - created their account the same day they cast their vote. So, if we’re questioning voter activity, maybe we shouldn’t have such a narrow focus.Yes, I made this account solely to post on the forums without exposing my login/name/age/whatever else.

Nothing wrong with that and I am interacting in this thread. Hi, I'm from the Castle Alliance. ^^

[fortior]

I also love URN. Cross guild collaboration, makes the camp healthier, and all the farm crews + castle already do it to some extent anyway. It also doesn't remove content from the game, and allows people who actually play the game to earn a big quest reward. It also doesn't require a forums thread, PMs to CSR, even the discord bot has been open sourced.

[Duik]

Berbax.
You are such a sanctimonius arse.
You try to sound all benevolent and patient with those you believe to be below you (everyone).
Someone totally discredits your suggestion and you repeat the same dull witted faff and then thank them for their input. I mean really?
Put your submission forward. Let it stand on its own. Shut the hell up with the REPEATED same shit.

I look forward to you "Thanking me for my input" and repeating some twaddle about making it fair for all <yawn>, sorry.
So solo away. Kill any mobs you can. Rare drops in EQ suck. Poopsockers will win. The devs here dont care about your feelz. Nobody does. Didnt vote. You suck.

Jesus Haytch Christ.

[berbax]

I also love URN. Cross guild collaboration, makes the camp healthier, and all the farm crews + castle already do it to some extent anyway. It also doesn't remove content from the game, and allows people who actually play the game to earn a big quest reward. It also doesn't require a forums thread, PMs to CSR, even the discord bot has been open sourced.

Awesome, that's great to hear. Yeah seems like URN might be a good direction to go in.

[Otsego]

Unfortunately wrong again, here are all my posts, which also follows the same form of advocacy and awareness as the message I sent you:

https://i.imgur.com/fvewuWd.pngI didn't know you were making posts in Discords about this also, but I am talking about the private 1:1 tells you are sending out.

You know.. the things not in the public eye where your "unbiased" image matters.

[fortior]

Nobody with any form of social antenna is gonna say the discord post and the private tells read the same way. As usual, real progress will be made in-game by people with large networks who just decide to do something instead of wannabe-soloists running to staff to get their way.

[berbax]

Berbax.
You are such a sanctimonius arse.
You try to sound all benevolent and patient with those you believe to be below you (everyone).
Someone totally discredits your suggestion and you repeat the same dull witted faff and then thank them for their input. I mean really?
Put your submission forward. Let it stand on its own. Shut the hell up with the REPEATED same shit.

I look forward to you "Thanking me for my input" and repeating some twaddle about making it fair for all <yawn>, sorry.
So solo away. Kill any mobs you can. Rare drops in EQ suck. Poopsockers will win. The devs here dont care about your feelz. Nobody does. Didnt vote. You suck.

Jesus Haytch Christ.

Duik, I’m sorry you feel that way, but I don’t believe responding in a petulant or confrontational manner adds any value, or aids in my cause. My goal has been to engage constructively and focus on solutions that benefit everyone. If that approach doesn’t resonate with you, that’s fine, but resorting to insults isn’t going to improve anything. Take care.

[Otsego]

Awesome, that's great to hear. Yeah seems like URN might be a good direction to go in.100% agree

It has been a good solution on our end. Although I'm not 100% sure all the minor differences between their ruleset and ours.

[berbax]

I didn't know you were making posts in Discords about this also, but I am talking about the private 1:1 tells you are sending out.

You know.. the things not in the public eye where your "unbiased" image matters.

It’s a bit of a stretch to suggest that one tell equates to some secretive, manipulative campaign. I sent you a single message because I thought your group might be interested in the discussion, nothing more. If you want to spin that into a conspiracy theory, that’s on you, but it doesn’t align with the reality of the situation. For the remainder of this thread’s lifespan, I’m unlikely to engage in any more conspiracy theories.

[berbax]

100% agree

It has been a good solution on our end. Although I'm not 100% sure all the minor differences between their ruleset and ours.

Excellent sounds like we are making some progress with a couple of you here. Here are their rules/setup:

Brool/Aedriel/Karuran — 01/24/2023 11:36 AM
Here is a list of the rules for the U.R.N Community. This is an evolving post that will continue to grow to best suit the groups needs. I reserve the right to make changes at any time in order to keep things fair if things get confusing. Always open to your input to make things better! Lets keep this channel comment free for clarity. Post ideas in member chat or msg me personally ��

1) To claim the camp and begin URNING dkp/hours you need to clear the pather plus Two golem. Be sure to remain active....especially if others are watching!
2) There is a maximum of 4 players that can be URNING dkp/hours at the camp at a time. In special cases, some additional members may be allowed for short overlaps or to secure a DS kill when the comp may not be ideal.
3) The person with the highest hours/dkp has loot rights to the Urn. If the group is full, the person with Urn rights may still come to camp to loot even though they might night be URNING dkp at that time. Ideally we can have a system where we can loot for people and MQ to them when they are not there, but for now.....it is best you are at the DS kill whenever possible.
4) Be kind to each other. This is often a long camp so use the opportunity to make connections. Do your best to be kind to opposing groups -- even if they don't particularly deserve it.
5) When camp is full, post in Camp Rep List to notify the group you are available. If there is less than 4 people at the camp, you are always welcome to join and start URNING.
6) Once you URN your URN your dkp/time drops to zero and you may start URNING more the next time the group secures camp. Everyone elses DKP carries over until everyone gets their URN.
7) You may use the URN as you please once you have URNED it. Use. Sell. Or Split amongst group. I will be working on different incentive systems for this as it is more complex.
8) Notifying people when you need a rep at camp is crucial, if you know you re going to leave, start looking for a rep within group whenever possible. Use "@Here" in member chat if there are not already people waiting in camp rep list.
9) On DS kill, you must be in voice, even if you are not able to speak. This is especially crucial with smaller groups 2-3 people, as she can kill quite easily with her dots. The last thing we want to do is camp it all day just to hand it over to someone.
10) Do not start the camp so early that we are unable to provide reps or reasonably hold camp. If that becomes an issue, you won't be awarded dkp/hours for that time. This is a tricky thing to balance as it depends on reasonable availability of group along with the start times of our competitors. Just be mindful that you re not taking advantage of this and just logging hours randomly.

[sajbert]

There's nothing communal about a guy running to server staff to stop groups of people from voluntarily using their time and effort to hold down a camp. If you got the wool pulled over your eyes by his polite language then that's your problem.

You seem to be confused.

You're right that it's not a communal act to consult server staff and make a post, but he then appeals to the community, which is a communal act. He then proposes that the whole p99 community can share an element of game content instead of it being held down by a few guilds, allowed by current server and camp rules, which as with any other rules in this game can be subject to change.

Am I supposed to think this is a heinous act? That I am being deceived by this wolf in sheep's clothing? How dare he? Come on my guy, you're throwing vitriol here and it's not looking good.

I can see reasons for why people wouldn't wish for change and that's fine although I do think a considerable number are doing so for anything but altruistic reasons. And that's ultimately how it's going to be for most part. People who have something to lose, will say no. People who have something to gain will say yes.

[fortior]

You seem to be confused.

You're right that it's not a communal act to consult server staff and make a post, but he then appeals to the community, which is a communal act. He then proposes that the whole p99 community can share an element of game content instead of it being held down by a few guilds, allowed by current server and camp rules, which as with any other rules in this game can be subject to change.

Am I supposed to think this is a heinous act? That I am being deceived by this wolf in sheep's clothing? How dare he? Come on my guy, you're throwing vitriol here and it's not looking good.

I can see reasons for why people wouldn't wish for change and that's fine although I do think a considerable number are doing so for anything but altruistic reasons. And that's ultimately how it's going to be for most part. People who have something to lose, will say no. People who have something to gain will say yes.

He was told to appeal to the community, he had to be told that that was the way to go. Then just read the posts he makes in this thread: Loramin gave him good advice which he just discarded with a boilerplate response, same for several other posters. URN posters gave him good advice, same boilerplate responses. He has been completely disinterested in what other people have to say, only signal boosting people who agree with him. Note: URN requires no rule changes, keeps the content in the game, and requires no extra work on CSR's behalf.

I personally think he says the rudest things dressed up in polite language, and it's been very obvious from day 1:

I'm really looking for the change to happen on P99, so right now I'm looking for the community to come together and agree on this type of change, so that the Project1999 staff can help in enforcing it.

Not looking for input, not shopping around for ideas to make for a more compelling player agreement pitch, but looking for the "community to [..] agree", so that whoever doesn't agree can be strongarmed through CSR enforcement (extra work for CSR). When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

[Duik]

Duik, I’m sorry you feel that way, but I don’t believe responding in a petulant or confrontational manner adds any value, or aids in my cause. My goal has been to engage constructively and focus on solutions that benefit everyone. If that approach doesn’t resonate with you, that’s fine, but resorting to insults isn’t going to improve anything. Take care.
You continuosly reapeat the same droll time and again. The same thing time and again. Same. Same.
The same thing again, this time with a "you are wrong and this is why" followed by a "im just trying to remove the rampant toxicity for the good of the mental health of the server".
The people who camp items 24/7 turns out its not. They share the load because they have community contact. You are clearly not part of that. Seems to me you need to get over it or become part of the greater whole.

TL;DR
Nobody has to let you solo anything. Soloing is just that. Solo. Canny do yaself? Suckit. As an aside, I have no dog in this race as I know i cant spend literal hours online awaiting a <insert mob here> to spawn.
Deal with it.

[Elizondo]

Has DSM posted in this thread yet?

[zelld52]

Planned FTE Races

Structure
Routine
Shared experiences
Repeated, positive, ongoing interactions
Belonging
Self efficacy
Self realisation/actualisation
Socialisation
Peer support
Growth/mastery mindset/motivation
Fosters community spirit
Daily grass touching
Results


Vs
Summer Camp Raid Meta

Perpetually indoors
Isolation
Social/Peer comparison mindset/motivation
Dissonant sense of self
Sleeplessness
Paranoia
Delusions and hallucinations
Technically possible but no results except
Poop in a sock

[magicfest2]

Despite being direct competition, I think Otsego and I are essentially on the same page here. The conversation here is going to be forever circular because most of us on the thread are addressing what we thought the OP’s goal was, but his actual goal is essentially some other thing that I can’t quite define. If the goal is to get players urns directly and not have a ton of resellers making plat off people who are actually trying to gear their characters, then we’re already doing fine. The “GG group” (again, not just GG membership, just a group of people who want urns and were tired of the Big Urn monopoly) created their own system and banded together and got a bunch of urns for people who had never had access to the camp before. Castle is doing the same and huge respect to them! It is so much healthier to do it in a group like this than try to solo. All of the talk about it being unhealthy is literally just when you try it like OP did for solo artist, which is literally a player defined self challenge mode for the game that is totally optional.

Summarizing, a ton of new players have gotten urns in the past six months or so and farming for resale has almost totally stopped. This is supposedly exactly what OP wants, except “no, not those people, OTHER people in the server”. Who exactly? The real goal appears to just be about the selection of who gets their urns, because apparently they aren’t being distributed the way he prefers. What is the difference between players A-L getting their first urn and players M-Q or K/P/S/Q/X/Z? The number of urns is not changing, and anyone who wants to can put in effort with some friends and join up. URN from blue seems fine too, and all it takes is literally the same thing we did, just organize some folks to do it!

[Otsego]

Summarizing, a ton of new players have gotten urns in the past six months or so and farming for resale has almost totally stopped. This is supposedly exactly what OP wants, except “no, not those people, OTHER people in the server”. Who exactly? The real goal appears to just be about the selection of who gets their urns, because apparently they aren’t being distributed the way he prefers. What is the difference between players A-L getting their first urn and players M-Q or K/P/S/Q/X/Z? The number of urns is not changing, and anyone who wants to can put in effort with some friends and join up. URN from blue seems fine too, and all it takes is literally the same thing we did, just organize some folks to do it!I agree, we're on the same page here.

The system works. Share the burden with others and make some friends along the way. Even if you can't put in long hours your time will come.

Often you'll find that those around you also want you to succeed. It's not about greed even if people are farming for their own progress. We all have the same goals and just want to make the camp as smooth as possible for each other.

[zelld52]

Here's a solve for you - you don't need the item to beat the game. Every guild has 100 people on a raid. It's not such a big deal. You could easily not have the spirit wracked cord and be okay.

New solution:
Stop trying to min - max and ExcelQuest this game and just play it. I have never and will never go for a Spirit Wracked Cord and I have plenty of fun on all my characters. So do the VAST MAJORITY of the server. Spirit Wracked Cord is such an E LEET level item. Just go outside, touch grass.

[Xer0]

Project 1999 isn't an entitlement server where you get something just because you feel you should. It is here to emulate Everquest as we experienced it "back in the day" and instituting rules that just award people things for showing up is bogus.

There are changes that could be made to improve the camp, but implementing a list/line/roll system is dumb.
yeah, which is exactly what p99 staff/devs have done in the past.

[thdapparels]

As someone that has held this camp in shifts for 96 hours. Its horrible, it sucks, constant pressure is obnoxious. It requires a coordinated group of players being on in shifts to really lock it down. All of these are tough obstacles to overcome, but this is the way it should be. Stop trying to make every camp snaccpack accessible. I am a fan of solo artist challenges, but trying to rework a camp to make it solo artist viable appeases a couple people, not the majority.

[loramin]

As someone that has held this camp in shifts for 96 hours. Its horrible, it sucks, constant pressure is obnoxious. It requires a coordinated group of players being on in shifts to really lock it down. All of these are tough obstacles to overcome, but this is the way it should be. Stop trying to make every camp snaccpack accessible. I am a fan of solo artist challenges, but trying to rework a camp to make it solo artist viable appeases a couple people, not the majority.

I'm all for making things "real classic hard" ... but P99's policy on DS and the list camps simply isn't classic.

Look, guilds absolutely, 100% monopolized content in classic ... but they were just more active than their competitors: they never truly "locked" anything down the way people here do, because there was no camp holding in classic. It didn't matter if you, or your guild, had been sitting there for 100 hours: you had no more claim to the mob than anyone else.

That may sound crazy to everyone here who is used to the P99 way, but we have the GM Guidelines from Kunark/Velious, so we know exactly how camp disputes were resolved in classic:

When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested, a disruption investigation should first be initiated according to the procedures of section 8.2.2 to determine if harassment or Zone/Area disruption is occurring. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, instruct the parties involved in the contested spawn situation to work out a compromise. Then leave the scene.

If another complaint is received involving the same spawn site, another disruption investigation should be initiated. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise for the parties to which the parties are required to abide. The compromise should be as described in section 8.2.3.1. Any party refusing to abide by the compromise established by the CS Representative should be issued a warning for disruption.

On PvP servers, where players can reach a solution to the contested spawn situation, the CS Representative does not need to require the players to share the spawn.

8.2.3.1 The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation. The CS Representative then bases the rest of the rotation order on how close the other parties’ numbers were to theirs. The compromise established by a CS Representative must be objective and not require the CS Representative to choose one customer over another based on subjective criteria. The CS Representative is the arbiter in any disputes in establishing the compromise.

TLDR; /list and the Play Nice Policies have served P99 well over the years ... but the server can be better AND more classic by switching to a random system. Keep /list, and use it in more places like DS (with a little adjustment required, as noted in this thread) ... but make it so everyone on the list (#2 or #29) has a chance to become #1 when #1 leaves.

[Swish]

She's up on red. Come on down.

[PatChapp]

Red can't kill drusella,confirmed.

[cd288]

It's important to recognize that Project 1999 already employs list/line/roll systems for multiple camps, as mentioned in my post, as well as a series of camp rules and engagements (FTE) that are rules upon rules to circumvent the inherent flaws in the persistent era. The server strives to emulate Everquest as we remember it, but we're not experiencing the game as we did "back in the day" due to several factors.

Today's players are much more aware of min/maxing strategies, leading to behaviors and competition that weren't as prevalent back then. Additionally, Project 1999's static era means that certain items retain high contention indefinitely, unlike in the evolving original game where new content would shift player focus and reduce competition for older items.

Implementing a list/line/roll system at the DS camp would address the modern realities of gameplay on Project 1999, promoting fairness and reducing the toxic competition that currently exists. This change wouldn't hand out rewards arbitrarily; it would ensure that all players have a fair chance at valuable items, maintaining the spirit of Everquest while adapting to the dynamics of our current player base.

Most (if not all?) of the roll systems are player agreements I believe. The staff agreed to enforce them. But the players could all agree to change the roll agreement. It's not "employed" by P99 as a feature

[loramin]

Most (if not all?) of the roll systems are player agreements I believe. The staff agreed to enforce them. But the players could all agree to change the roll agreement. It's not "employed" by P99 as a feature

Another deep insight from CD288 ... on page 23 ... when the very first post on the very first page said:

I initially tried to run this by the Project1999 staff, but they preferred a player agreement over instituting the change themselves. So here I'm going to outline the details of what should ideally be done with this camp.

(Not to mention that the player agreement part was also mentioned throughout the entire 23 page discussion).

Maybe before sharing your brilliant insights, you could try reading what the people before you wrote?

[cd288]

Another deep insight from CD288 ... on page 23 ... when the very first post on the very first page said:



(Not to mention that the player agreement part was also mentioned throughout the entire 23 page discussion).

Maybe before sharing your brilliant insights, you could try reading what the people before you wrote?

What a weird way to respond lol

[loramin]

You think it's weird that I call out someone who habitually doesn't read the conversation before and just jumps in with "hot takes" (which not uncommonly involve attacking me) ...

... and I think it's weird that you do that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[cd288]

You think it's weird that I call out someone who habitually doesn't read the conversation before and just jumps in with "hot takes" (which not uncommonly involve attacking me) ...

... and I think it's weird that you do that. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I didn't attack you in this thread. Relax dude lol