How much would you donate for a new Green?

[cd288]

Let's get the pot going. Hypothetically, how much would you donate to the P99 project if it greased the wheels to get a new server started?

[thebutthat]

Yeesh. It's just a mana stone bro.

[strongNpretty]

$0 for a new server. I'll give $25 for a merge.

[Ripqozko]

$0 for a new server. I'll give $25 for a merge.

this man failed on every server, a merge wouldnt help him.

[grims]

If they added some new in game staff and added a warning system for false petitions I would say 100 personally.

I feel like the staff would be a lot more willing to launch a new server if there were more good will to attempt to resolve issues and de-escalate between players before willfully wasting staffs time.

A nice clear rule set would also go a long way with only people filing petitions for scenarios with no shadow of doubt proof of scenario or intentionally malicious behavior imo.

[strongNpretty]

this man failed on every server, a merge wouldnt help him.

But it would help you, cause I know you're still playing regularly after 14 years of time locked servers.

[eqravenprince]

Until the devs show some signs of life of a new green happening, I'm not going to bother getting my hopes up. Even if someone donated a million dollars, I'm not confident it would happen.

[loramin]

Even if someone donated a million dollars, I'm not confident it would happen.

This.

Someone like Rogean or Nilbog doesn't dedicate the massive amount of time and energy it takes to keep this place running because they are motivated by money (especially when that money is a drop in the bucket vs. what professional developers/dev ops makes, ie. $150k+/year).

They do it for the love of the game. So, it stands to reason that if they ever lose interest, money won't help re-motivate them. The only way it might is just as a signal that "people are excited about this place" ... not for the actual donation itself.

[Toxigen]

you mean to tell me if someone dangled a $1m carrot in front of rogean for green 2.0 he wouldnt get it done?

yall mfkers crazy

that would be insanely high $$$/hour

[cd288]

$0 for a new server. I'll give $25 for a merge.

Sorry should've specified, a new server assuming they merged existing Blue and Green

[cd288]

This.

Someone like Rogean or Nilbog doesn't dedicate the massive amount of time and energy it takes to keep this place running because they are motivated by money (especially when that money is a drop in the bucket vs. what professional developers/dev ops makes, ie. $150k+/year).

They do it for the love of the game. So, it stands to reason that if they ever lose interest, money won't help re-motivate them. The only way it might is just as a signal that "people are excited about this place" ... not for the actual donation itself.

That's the point of the intellectual exercise of seeing what people would donate and what number you could get it up to. At some point there is a number that would motivate someone

[loramin]

you mean to tell me if someone dangled a $1m carrot in front of rogean for green 2.0 he wouldnt get it done?

At some point there is a number that would motivate someone

I mean, in the abstract you are both correct. In the real world however, we're talking (at best) an order of magnitude of thousands of dollars.

Let's generously assume the community can raise $5k (100 donations of $50). Let's also assume Rogean makes $180k/year ie. $15k/month (a rough but reasonable number for senior dev ops).

In other words, at best Rogean can get 1/3rd of one month's salary in exchange for years of maintaining an entire server ... such a deal! ;)

As I said before, Rogean has never been doing this for the money: he has to have been doing it for the love of the game, and it's only that, not $$$, that will keep him doing it.

[Elijah850]

I mean, in the abstract you are both correct. In the real world however, we're talking (at best) an order of magnitude of thousands of dollars.

Let's generously assume the community can raise $5k (100 donations of $50). Let's also assume Rogean makes $180k/year ie. $15k/month (a rough but reasonable number for senior dev ops).

In other words, at best Rogean can get 1/3rd of one month's salary in exchange for years of maintaining an entire server ... such a deal! ;)

As I said before, Rogean has never been doing this for the money: he has to have been doing it for the love of the game, and it's only that, not $$$, that will keep him doing it.

If I thought donating would help I might be willing, but I think Loramin is probably real close to reality. I have faith they will make another fresh server, but not going to hold my breath.

I could care less if they wipe or merge existing servers, but my guess is whatever comes will attempt to cater to and mitigate all the haters they would get with any outcome other than keeping existing servers in some way.

Not like any other MMORPGs with the longevity of classic EQ are releasing soon. :D

[Rimitto]

The servers are located in the northeast, currently everything up in that area costs an arm and a leg.

If you want a new server, it's time to look at the policies choking out that region.
hint hint, when the cost of living comes down, the server costs ALSO come down.

[loramin]

The servers are located in the northeast, currently everything up in that area costs an arm and a leg.

If you want a new server, it's time to look at the policies choking out that region.
hint hint, when the cost of living comes down, the server costs ALSO come down.

I haven't heard anything about their infrastructure in years, but awhile back Rogean posted a picture of a (physical/rack) server. I'm pretty sure he maintains the server himself (no AWS/cloud stuff), and I would imagine he doesn't want to drive to a 3rd world country every time a hard drive fails ;)

But even if he wasn't, costs aren't that different, and the North East isn't actually the most expensive area, at least going by AWS costs (the West is: https://openupthecloud.com/which-aws-region-cheapest/).

Plus, even if he's not somehow using the same host/cage as his real business (which I suspect he might) I'm sure by doing all the dev ops work himself P99 is getting a great deal on hosting.

Which brings me to ...
If I thought donating would help I might be willing, but I think Loramin is probably real close to reality. I have faith they will make another fresh server, but not going to hold my breath.


I'd argue you shouldn't donate to get a new server ... but you should donate. Even if Rogean didn't lose money on P99 (and I imagine he does), the guy has literally given years of his life to make this place possible (as has Nilbog and many other hard-working volunteers).

Making sure he's not out of pocket seems like the least we can do.

[Swish]

Host new green in Europe :)

[Duik]

I dont think its the hosting costs but rather the tiny whiney man babies that would keep any sane person the fuck away from here.

[Rimitto]

But even if he wasn't, costs aren't that different, and the North East isn't actually the most expensive area, at least going by AWS costs (the West is: https://openupthecloud.com/which-aws-region-cheapest/).
I was actually more referring to energy costs. :rolleyes:

[loramin]

Ok, but energy cost are only relevant to P99 when they impact hosting costs. P99 is not a bitcoin mining operation.

[Rimitto]

I could swear you out and point out the stupidity of your statement but let me just ask you this.

In what world would lowering the energy costs NOT help the server?

[loramin]

I'm not disputing that energy cost impacts hosting cost.

I'm just saying that when AWS factors in energy (and every other) cost, the hosting location doesn't impact cost that much ... at most its like a 2x difference between the cheapest regions (USA and Ireland/Stockholm), and the most expensive in San Paulo.

See my previous link.

[cd288]

I mean, in the abstract you are both correct. In the real world however, we're talking (at best) an order of magnitude of thousands of dollars.

Let's generously assume the community can raise $5k (100 donations of $50). Let's also assume Rogean makes $180k/year ie. $15k/month (a rough but reasonable number for senior dev ops).

In other words, at best Rogean can get 1/3rd of one month's salary in exchange for years of maintaining an entire server ... such a deal! ;)

As I said before, Rogean has never been doing this for the money: he has to have been doing it for the love of the game, and it's only that, not $$$, that will keep him doing it.

Yeah but my point is a new server assuming a merge (so only 2 servers total). So he'd be getting that additional money for doing something he's already doing already.

[cd288]

The servers are located in the northeast, currently everything up in that area costs an arm and a leg.

If you want a new server, it's time to look at the policies choking out that region.
hint hint, when the cost of living comes down, the server costs ALSO come down.

Rimitto please go read the post from the staff on the front page about keeping political commentary out of these forums. We don't need that here

[enjchanter]

0

[Infectious]

I'm not disputing that energy cost impacts hosting cost.

I'm just saying that when AWS factors in energy (and every other) cost, the hosting location doesn't impact cost that much ... at most its like a 2x difference between the cheapest regions (USA and Ireland/Stockholm), and the most expensive in San Paulo.

See my previous link.

Lora thinks he knows because he put together a p99 wiki lol.

[loramin]

Yeah, it's definitely the wiki ... and not my experience from a career of web development. :rolleyes:

[Jimjam]

Yeah, it's definitely the wiki ... and not my experience from a career of web development. :rolleyes:

He admits it(!)

Personally, I feel the most important thing is we remember this is all just one guy’s hobby, and imo he should only proceed with greeen at his own leisure and enjoyment. If he doesn’t vibe it then who cares.

[Infectious]

Yeah, it's definitely the wiki ... and not my experience from a career of web development. :rolleyes:

Can barely keep the wiki together while being a career web developer. Okay buddy.

[loramin]

"Keep the wiki together"? The wiki keeps itself together, and if any human has to maintain it, that human is Rogean. I'm just one of many wiki editors.

[Infectious]

"Keep the wiki together"? The wiki keeps itself together, and if any human has to maintain it, that human is Rogean. I'm just one of many wiki editors.

Let's stay on track and not turn this into a shit thread about yourself.

[Rimitto]

Rimitto please go read the post from the staff on the front page about keeping political commentary out of these forums. We don't need that here

Sir, the thread is about economics, please stop inserting your societal views into the topic by asserting they're political. :rolleyes:

EDIT:
going to extend this olive branch because some people here seem braindead.
more money in pocket -> more money on hobbies

[Duik]

Bot bot bot.

[cd288]

Sir, the thread is about economics, please stop inserting your societal views into the topic by asserting they're political. :rolleyes:

EDIT:
going to extend this olive branch because some people here seem braindead.
more money in pocket -> more money on hobbies

Bot reply pre-edit. The thread isn't about economic policy. It's about P99 and server donations to motivate a merge and new server. Again, your bot doesn't absorb context well.

But anyway, please go use it in another thread. Back on topic, I do wonder what the number would be to make the devs blink and go oh damn I'm going to get on this now lol.

[derjen]

I would support a new progression server with support where you’re limited to a single account that’s $$, possibly with reoccurring $.

[Jimjam]

Bot reply pre-edit. The thread isn't about economic policy. It's about P99 and server donations to motivate a merge and new server. Again, your bot doesn't absorb context well.

But anyway, please go use it in another thread. Back on topic, I do wonder what the number would be to make the devs blink and go oh damn I'm going to get on this now lol.

I don’t think any amount would. Money is isn’t the bottleneck here.

[Rimitto]

Bot reply pre-edit. The thread isn't about economic policy. It's about P99 and server donations to motivate a merge and new server. Again, your bot doesn't absorb context well.

But anyway, please go use it in another thread. Back on topic, I do wonder what the number would be to make the devs blink and go oh damn I'm going to get on this now lol.
"Back on topic" (LITERALLY THE MOST OFFTOPIC) :rolleyes:
what's the topic? (How much would you donate for a new green?) ROFL
It's weird how I offer a roundabout solution, and you offer NOTHING.
I'm sad this forum doesn't have the pointing and laughing emote like many websites do these days, because I would've used the hell outta it by now.

Why not just start a gofundme and bilk half the money like all the scammers do these days if you really cared about server funds. :rolleyes:

@JimJam, if money isn't the bottleneck then what is? Lazyness?
You probably don't know the answer, and I'm betting nobody other than the server staff do. -shrug-

[cd288]

Rimitto this is not RNF please take that type of interaction to the appropriate forum

[cd288]

I don’t think any amount would. Money is isn’t the bottleneck here.

Yeah it's not the bottleneck, but I wonder if a certain aggregate amount of donation would make them sit up and take notice lol

[bcbrown]

Yeah it's not the bottleneck, but I wonder if a certain aggregate amount of donation would make them sit up and take notice lol

Turning a hobby/passion project into a job often makes someone begin to hate both the hobby and the job.

Given the degree of entitlement already displayed around here, I cannot begin to imagine how much entitlement there would be after a huge amount of aggregate donations conditioned on a new server.

[loramin]

Turning a hobby/passion project into a job often makes someone begin to hate both the hobby and the job.

Yup, and there have been psychological studies proving it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overjustification_effect

In one of the earliest demonstrations of this effect, Edward Deci and his colleagues conducted a laboratory experiment in 1971 where subjects showing baseline interest in solving a puzzle were exposed to two different conditions. The control group were not paid on all three days while the experimental group were not paid on the first day, were paid on the second day and were not paid again on the third day. The subjects were given a break in the middle of each session and were being observed while doing whatever they wanted.

The results showed that the experimental group spent significantly more time than the control group playing the puzzle during their break time on day 2 when they were paid but significantly less on day 3 when they were not paid. This was interpreted as evidence that the extrinsic monetary reward significantly reduced their intrinsic motivation to engage in the task.[2]

[Old_PVP]

I would donate a big fat $0. It should be abundantly clear by now that the devs have lost interest. I don't blame them! Honestly, people lose interest in shit... it happens. This project has been going for 15ish years now? How much longer could it actually keep going? Will we all be 60 years old still playing this game?

IF they did come back, we would be in this same situation again once Green 2.0 or Red 2.0 or whatever 2.0 became stale.

Sunset this bitch and close it down!

[Zuranthium]

How much longer could it actually keep going?

Forever! Assuming Rogean hands the server off to someone upon death or at some point when he is no longer able to maintain it.

IF they did come back, we would be in this same situation again once Green 2.0 or Red 2.0 or whatever 2.0 became stale.

Hence why the game code needs to be changed, except for Blue server, which needs to remain in existence as a museum for the classic coding.

An ideal version of Everquest is something that can be played forever and remain interesting, because encounters and events in the world keep changing. OFC, that is much more likely to be created somewhere else, as its own IP. But there's still plenty that could be done to improve p99 without that amount of effort.

[Old_PVP]

An ideal version of Everquest is something that can be played forever and remain interesting, because encounters and events in the world keep changing. OFC, that is much more likely to be created somewhere else, as its own IP. But there's still plenty that could be done to improve p99 without that amount of effort.

Monsters & Memories (https://monstersandmemories.com/) might be the game to fit that bill. I've only been following it but it looks mighty interesting.

[Trelaboon]

$0 for a new server. I'll give $25 for a merge.

This. I don’t even want a new server, I just want my level 60’s on blue not to feel absolutely abandoned. There’s no reason for not merging at this point. Both servers are at their end cycle and are over saturated by plat and raid gear. Might as well merge them and quit cutting the community in half.

Honestly, p1999 lost a lot of my interest after green. It was fun at first, but ultimately just made all the servers feel way underpopulated

[cd288]

This. I don’t even want a new server, I just want my level 60’s on blue not to feel absolutely abandoned. There’s no reason for not merging at this point. Both servers are at their end cycle and are over saturated by plat and raid gear. Might as well merge them and quit cutting the community in half.

Honestly, p1999 lost a lot of my interest after green. It was fun at first, but ultimately just made all the servers feel way underpopulated

Agree

[eqravenprince]

Green reinvigorated my interest. Fresh servers do that. It's an ideal time for a fresh server.

[sajbert]

Merge servers, cycle legacy items and firepots bind, reset ST keys and unawaken the sleeper every 3 years or so.

[Wakanda]

ive always felt like project1999 should have crypto wallet codes on the main page

like you can literally mine ravencoin for instance while you run p99 and it wont affect performance at all

could just mine the ravencoin to the project1999 wallet code, would add up to a lot of money annually, but that may be too big brain for the average p99 boomer who just wants to play this game (not even hating)

[Zuranthium]

Monsters & Memories (https://monstersandmemories.com/) might be the game to fit that bill.

It isn't. They are designing a static game world. I'm sure they won't have the same insane bottlenecks EQ has, so that's an improvement, but yeah that game isn't going to solve the bigger problem.

Ashes of Creation, on the other hand, is trying to build a fully dynamic game world. Not only for PvE, but also with PvP being integral to the entire design. This is the game that might push MMO's forward. They need to make sure the combat turns out great though. It's currently too cluttered with visual effects and a bit too spammy and using a few too many hotkeys, while lacking some of the depth I'd like to see. If they adopted the Guild Wars 1 system with minor changes and some balancing, then the intended design of the game would be the best ever to date.

[Xer0]

Yeesh. It's just a mana stone bro.

I dont think as many people care about that as you think. All I personally want is that fresh server feeling. Green is starting to feel like blue, when you run into mistmoore and are lucky to find a single group etc.

[Swish]

Ashes of Creation, on the other hand, is trying to build a fully dynamic game world. Not only for PvE, but also with PvP being integral to the entire design. This is the game that might push MMO's forward. They need to make sure the combat turns out great though. It's currently too cluttered with visual effects and a bit too spammy and using a few too many hotkeys, while lacking some of the depth I'd like to see. If they adopted the Guild Wars 1 system with minor changes and some balancing, then the intended design of the game would be the best ever to date.

That's the Pantheon alternative for hopes and dreams isnt it?

[enjchanter]

If you still care about eq style games, monsters and memories is the only option

Everything else is a cheap alternative

[Zuranthium]

That's the Pantheon alternative for hopes and dreams isnt it?

Ashes of Creation's long development time shouldn't be much of a concern, it's an incredibly ambitious game. Ironically the thing that's probably taking the most extra time to develop (needing to design a ton of different cities and systems for them, so that cities can constantly change via player input and warfare) is the least important feature to me. The overall world design, adventure, combat design, and PvP is what I care about most.

Pantheon shouldn't be discounted either though. It's still progressing and honestly the world design looks the most interesting right now of the 3 games. They aren't shying away from darkness and danger lurking everywhere, and it seems to have the best sense of scaling with how big the environment seems compared to the character.

Monsters & Memories is the dollar store variant. It's likely just going to be an EQ-emu server with some more modern graphics (not necessarily an improvement) and other tweaks.

[Duik]

Ashes of Creation's long development time shouldn't be much of a concern, it's an incredibly ambitious game. Ironically the thing that's probably taking the most extra time to develop (needing to design a ton of different cities and systems for them, so that cities can constantly change via player input and warfare) is the least important feature to me. The overall world design, adventure, combat design, and PvP is what I care about most.

Pantheon shouldn't be discounted either though. It's still progressing and honestly the world design looks the most inte snipped.

Monsters & Memories is the dollar store variant. It's likely just going to be an EQ-emu server with some more modern graphics (not necessarily an improvement) and other tweaks.

At least we know the money being inputed into Monsters and Memories isnt going on hookers and blow. If brad was a dollar store dev maybe hed still be more than dead? I dunno.

[Jimjam]

Yeah, but then maybe the bar named after him in Halas wouldn’t be surrounded by muscle mummies and blsnow. It wouldn’t be the Everquest we love and know.

[Zuranthium]

Brad is irrelevant to the discussion, and his money later in life was likely going to his wife's cancer treatment.

There is no money being input into Monsters & Memories. It's being developed without pay and is going to launch with only 14 zones and 2 starting cities, which people will have to pay a subscription to play. There's no way of knowing where that money will go and to what extent they will continue to develop the game.

[Duik]

Given a choice of playing and paying for a game that is developed (to the extent it is) and allowed to test run it first
OR
drop cash on a game (no matter who was associated with it) that promises X and Y without it being finished.
I know what model I would trust more. But maybe thats just me.
You can simp for the memory of brad if you like and the promise of greatness but im afraid thats a big nope from me.

[Zuranthium]

Again, has nothing to do with Brad. He's been out of the picture for a long time. It's not about the promise of greatness either, but what has actually been shown so far. Nobody is required to put money in beforehand either. Pantheon's design just looks better.

M&M planning to launch in a very limited state isn't a great sign to me. It's unlikely to attract many players outside of the EQ-emu crowd by releasing like that and, more importantly, it just doesn't look like a very interesting game. It's copying most of EQ's mechanics instead of bringing something better, and also not doing anything special with the world design from what I've seen.

I don't see how it could hold my interest as a player. The PvE is going to be quickly "solved", and they aren't putting any real effort into designing PvP, so then what is there to do? It literally just becomes another EQ-emu server, but with far less playable areas, and alternate graphics that don't have the same magic/nostalgia. Like they basically did a copy of Freeport + surrounding areas (if the commonlands were also a desert like Ro), but with one of the dungeons existing right outside the city gate. It feels artificial, isn't drawing me in.

[Reiwa]

Brad is irrelevant to the discussion, and his money later in life was likely going to his wife's cancer treatment.

There is no money being input into Monsters & Memories. It's being developed without pay and is going to launch with only 14 zones and 2 starting cities, which people will have to pay a subscription to play. There's no way of knowing where that money will go and to what extent they will continue to develop the game.

14 zones is a dealbreaker for any amount of dollars. Get real.

[BigPlays]

I would not play on another strictly PvE server again. It would need to have some sort of PvP for end dungeons and FFA with training allowed. I do not think I could go through another round of list camps and dealing with mega guilds

[Zuranthium]

14 zones is a dealbreaker for any amount of dollars

If the zones were absolutely massive it would be understandable, but they aren't. Basically imagine Freeport, North Ro, Oasis, South Ro, East Commonlands, West Commonlands, Befallen, Dagnor's Cauldron, Unrest, Greater Faydark, Crushbone, and a few more dungeons - and launching that as your game.

Monsters & Memories is launching like that so their dev team can start making money. Problem is, it will be years before the game world feels complete (if it does keep getting content), at which point there are will tons of max level chars running around. They don't have a reincarnation system to incentivize high level chars to drop back to a low level and play through low/mid level zones, nor an anti-twink system, so that will devalue the content. I bet it will even change the direction of their design, and they will focus less on fleshing out a cohesive world, and instead cater to pushing out content for the max level players.

I would not play on another strictly PvE server again.

It really does get boring without something more to add to the gameplay. Either need more dynamic PvE, or PvP.

[sajbert]

Monsters & Memories is launching like that so their dev team can start making money. Problem is, it will be years before the game world feels complete (if it does keep getting content), at which point there are will tons of max level chars running around. They don't have a reincarnation system to incentivize high level chars to drop back to a low level and play through low/mid level zones, nor an anti-twink system, so that will devalue the content. I bet it will even change the direction of their design, and they will focus less on fleshing out a cohesive world, and instead cater to pushing out content for the max level players.

M&M either is lazy-dev'd or underbudgeted, the later is fine if a sub will eventually make it into a proper game. But lets face it, it's a pay to playtest game which honestly sucks. Technically the game isn't really more advanced than EQ and the content in EQ was even at launch vastly better than what M&M appears to.

I get that game devs back in the day had it rough but it's really disappointing how even forsaking advanced graphics and trying proven tech modern game studios can't seem to produce a finished game in time.

If M&M ignites sufficient support it may be a hit, there are good things there, but I just don't think interest will last but I hope to be wrong.