The best bard on the raid should be in the tank group

[Naethyn]

Bard produces 61 damage shield.

Bard produces 20 mana a tick.
20 mana a tick = 200 mana per minute
Complete heal = 350 mana
17.5 bard ticks = 1 Complete Heal
10 minute fight = 2000 mana
5 complete heals
7 minutes = 1,400 mana
1,400 mana / 350 = 4 CH
5 clerics * 4 CH = 20 CH per 7 minutes

*A bard singing two DS songs and CHA can cap an ogre warrior on DI.

[aussenseiter]

Is it really only 61 with two songs and brass?

[roks1]

Bard produces 61 damage shield.

Bard produces 20 mana a tick.
20 mana a tick = 200 mana per minute
Complete heal = 350 mana
17.5 bard ticks = 1 Complete Heal
10 minute fight = 2000 mana
5 complete heals
7 minutes = 1,400 mana
1,400 mana / 350 = 4 CH
5 clerics * 4 CH = 20 CH per 7 minutes

*A bard singing two DS songs and CHA can cap an ogre warrior on DI.

so long as you can spare the buff slots.

[Jimjam]

Lets also stop slowing dragons so bards can do more DS damage.

[Duik]

Bard Ben Frankiln just wanna play wiff da kiteses!

[Toxigen]

on unslowable mobs, sure


vulak? no

[Bboboo]

>using math in an auto attack mmo

[wuanahto]

is the ds damage the bards damage or the gigachadbradthad tanks damage?
just sing mana song
also math in glades/c2 for the net gains

[Naethyn]

The maximum possible DS is 127.

[enjchanter]

what qualifies you as the best bard , asking for myself

[Troxx]

what qualifies you as the best bard , asking for myself

Having the biggest *flute*

[Trexller]

what qualifies you as the best bard , asking for myself

understands that bard is a hybrid caster and plays it as such.

every other bard just stands there twisting 2 songs max, or runs tiny circles in velks

[aussenseiter]

Having the biggest *flute*

Brass+Singing

[magnetaress]

Lets also stop slowing dragons so bards can do more DS damage.

This + multiple rez sticks is #1 strat. Can kill everything in game. Even shit u shouldn't be killing.

[Naethyn]

what qualifies you as the best bard , asking for myself

The tank group always gets the "extra" bard without epic and other cool stuff. Epic improves DS damage. The mana component of manasong is not affected by epic so these top tier bards are completely wasted in the cleric group. The extra bard should go in the cleric group.

[Toxigen]

The tank group always gets the "extra" bard without epic and other cool stuff. Epic improves DS damage. The mana component of manasong is not affected by epic so these top tier bards are completely wasted in the cleric group. The extra bard should go in the cleric group.

the only mob today where this actually matters is aow

everything else is being killed with numbers far more than necessary

[Videri]

The tank group always gets the "extra" bard without epic and other cool stuff. Epic improves DS damage. The mana component of manasong is not affected by epic so these top tier bards are completely wasted in the cleric group. The extra bard should go in the cleric group.

Troxx is right.

[Naethyn]

Maybe in the current raid meta, but historically raid meta can change, and optimizations like bard in the tank group are what kills mobs.

[7thGate]

the only mob today where this actually matters is aow

everything else is being killed with numbers far more than necessary

Matters for Vindi sometimes. How many people show up for Vindi varies a lot by guild and time of day. Its possible for even Riot to fail to muster for a 3 AM Vindi, and plenty of kills go down with 20 people where a Bard DSing the Tank/Ramp Tank is relevant.

[7thGate]

Usually in the parses I've seen Bard is second highest DPS on Vindi behind whoever is charming Bvellos, unless Yetarr is involved.

[wuanahto]

Maybe in the current raid meta, but historically raid meta can change, and optimizations like bard in the tank group are what kills mobs.

so 50 rogues, couple pullers, few tanks and just enough alt account clerics?

[aaezil]

Bard produces 61 damage shield.

Bard produces 20 mana a tick.
20 mana a tick = 200 mana per minute
Complete heal = 350 mana
17.5 bard ticks = 1 Complete Heal
10 minute fight = 2000 mana
5 complete heals
7 minutes = 1,400 mana
1,400 mana / 350 = 4 CH
5 clerics * 4 CH = 20 CH per 7 minutes

*A bard singing two DS songs and CHA can cap an ogre warrior on DI.

Doesnt your guild bring like 150 people to each dragon justsaying

[Videri]

What are they supposed to do, tell some of them to go home?

[aaezil]

What are they supposed to do, tell some of them to go home?

Im just concerned why bother with min max at that point

[enjchanter]

Unironically I always thought it would actually be fun to be a dps bard on raids. Not personal dps , but like in the melee groups doing atk / ds / resist songs instead of mana bot

Sadly raiding is brain dmg tho

[Toxigen]

Matters for Vindi sometimes. How many people show up for Vindi varies a lot by guild and time of day. Its possible for even Riot to fail to muster for a 3 AM Vindi, and plenty of kills go down with 20 people where a Bard DSing the Tank/Ramp Tank is relevant.

yeah but nobody gives a shit about vindi

[7thGate]

yeah but nobody gives a shit about vindi

Eh, Vindi's average DKP spend is higher than a decent chunk of the raid targets in the game in my experience. We killed Vindi 136 times last year in Sanctum and hes still a 50-60 dkp average spend; people want this drops. In terms of DKP value paid out its like 40 Vindis to a Vulak for us. Its just spread out improving 40 people's alts/low attendance mains vs. upgrading 3 dedicated players.

I bet if "All the Vindis" was a draft option, it would go early round 2 most of the time. 21 Vindis is pretty decent value vs. a single NToV dragon, even if its not quite competitive with top tier targets.

[Naethyn]

Unironically I always thought it would actually be fun to be a dps bard on raids. Not personal dps , but like in the melee groups doing atk / ds / resist songs instead of mana bot

Sadly raiding is brain dmg tho

Determining if bards providing atk to a full group of rogues is better than mana song is next on my list to figure out.

[7thGate]

Determining if bards providing atk to a full group of rogues is better than mana song is next on my list to figure out.

Its hard to tell because the impact of +ATK is hard to parse out and it probably varies a lot by mob AC. My very rough approximation from experience is that Avatar is approximately +10% damage. Epic Bard is about half an Avatar, so guesstimating +25% of a Rogue from boosting a group, then they bring their own melee which is probably like 1/3 of a Rogue. Might be a bit better than that or a bit worse, but likely below a Rogue in total damage added.

Its obviously better to be pumping Rogue DPS vs. cleric mana on a fight like Trak or anything in VP where there's a lot of burst need and the fight is going to be done in 20 seconds. For something like AOW, if you have a 7 minute AOW, your math would indicate 20 CHs, which would be like 15-20 seconds of additional cleric mana for the raid to DPS. Raid is DPSing at 2380 for that time, so you basically do about 35-50k damage from extending the raid's DPS lifetime.

I'm almost positive you don't do 83 dps from boosting the DPS group, that's probably close to top tier rogue performance and I've never seen a non-pet break that level on Avatar (I also don't generally group with rogues running BIS though, I wouldn't be surprised if a BIS rogue could hit that sometimes).

Overall, its probably a shift where on some targets its better, some its worse and some its kind of equivalent-ish. Also really depends on how much DPS vs. cleric mana you have going on.

[aussenseiter]

Eh, Vindi's average DKP spend is higher than a decent chunk of the raid targets in the game in my experience. We killed Vindi 136 times last year in Sanctum and hes still a 50-60 dkp average spend; people want this drops. In terms of DKP value paid out its like 40 Vindis to a Vulak for us. Its just spread out improving 40 people's alts/low attendance mains vs. upgrading 3 dedicated players.

I bet if "All the Vindis" was a draft option, it would go early round 2 most of the time. 21 Vindis is pretty decent value vs. a single NToV dragon, even if its not quite competitive with top tier targets.

Any number of 8 hour respawns is never worth a weeklong respawn.

Stop the fucking.

[WarpathEQ]

In summary every group should have a bard or you're doing it wrong!

I personally prefer battle barding, in the fight, swinging hands, and driving DPS.

Also don't forget about how nice those resist songs are for AoEs when the clerics are hiding around the corner or behind the ledge.

[Nexii]

Its hard to tell because the impact of +ATK is hard to parse out and it probably varies a lot by mob AC. My very rough approximation from experience is that Avatar is approximately +10% damage. Epic Bard is about half an Avatar, so guesstimating +25% of a Rogue from boosting a group, then they bring their own melee which is probably like 1/3 of a Rogue. Might be a bit better than that or a bit worse, but likely below a Rogue in total damage added.

Its obviously better to be pumping Rogue DPS vs. cleric mana on a fight like Trak or anything in VP where there's a lot of burst need and the fight is going to be done in 20 seconds. For something like AOW, if you have a 7 minute AOW, your math would indicate 20 CHs, which would be like 15-20 seconds of additional cleric mana for the raid to DPS. Raid is DPSing at 2380 for that time, so you basically do about 35-50k damage from extending the raid's DPS lifetime.

I'm almost positive you don't do 83 dps from boosting the DPS group, that's probably close to top tier rogue performance and I've never seen a non-pet break that level on Avatar (I also don't generally group with rogues running BIS though, I wouldn't be surprised if a BIS rogue could hit that sometimes).

Overall, its probably a shift where on some targets its better, some its worse and some its kind of equivalent-ish. Also really depends on how much DPS vs. cleric mana you have going on.

Yea bards don't boost rogues enough for it to be worth it. 5% more dps isn't better than approx 25-30% more mana over the course of the fight

assuming 3600 start mana and 1400 regen from c2/potg/gob, and another 1400 from bard (20/tick*10*7mins)

If it was a little closer it'd be worth it though, because at 7 minutes usually a lot of your dps is dead anyways from tank swaps. Good bumping and getting DI procs do the most. Losing even 1 dps is a bigger impact than what group a bard goes in

[Ciderpress]

Bards shouldn't exist. They just piss everyone off. Everyone gets annoyed when you swarm kite cause it takes forever, you usually suck in groups, and I don't like dealing with your songs that are always fading and sharing icons with actual good buffs that I want to keep. I don't think a raid was ever won or lost due to the presence of a bard. Kiting mobs around on raids is basically a time saving exploit so that doesn't count either.

[Duik]

Bard bad then? All bard bad. You been grouped wiff a good one ever? Like one that augments the current group structure?
There is also a typing messaging element to the UI you know. So like msg them saying can you MR DS mana pump and haste only please. Mana and MR 1st. Others are just cream. For example.
This is from a grouping perspective. Dont raid leaders delegate shit thats needed?

[Ripqozko]

Eh, Vindi's average DKP spend is higher than a decent chunk of the raid targets in the game in my experience. We killed Vindi 136 times last year in Sanctum and hes still a 50-60 dkp average spend; people want this drops. In terms of DKP value paid out its like 40 Vindis to a Vulak for us. Its just spread out improving 40 people's alts/low attendance mains vs. upgrading 3 dedicated players.

I bet if "All the Vindis" was a draft option, it would go early round 2 most of the time. 21 Vindis is pretty decent value vs. a single NToV dragon, even if its not quite competitive with top tier targets.

in what guild? bp's go for 1 dkp in riot

[branamil]

"Best" bard

the one who can press 1, 2, 5, 6 instead of 1, 3, 4, 7. Incredible skill!!!!!1

[Toxigen]

I don't think a raid was ever won or lost due to the presence of a bard.

Gore / Fear / VP say hi

[Toxigen]

oh and PoG / AoW too

ciderpress confirmed shitter

[aussenseiter]

in what guild? bp's go for 1 dkp in riot

You agree that "draft all the Vindis" is a terrible choice, yes?

[7thGate]

in what guild? bp's go for 1 dkp in riot

Sanctum. Median vindi bp going for 125 dkp, 60 boots, 40 earring. For comparison cleric sky neck median was 25, my massive heartwood thorn was 850 and the most expensive item we've had was a 1300 dkp Ruby tear.

[Toxigen]

supply and demand

[aussenseiter]

supply and demand

Now do labor supply and demand. ;)

[Ripqozko]

You agree that "draft all the Vindis" is a terrible choice, yes?

ive said vindi should be draftable long time ago, it is a raid mob for while now

[Ripqozko]

Sanctum. Median vindi bp going for 125 dkp, 60 boots, 40 earring. For comparison cleric sky neck median was 25, my massive heartwood thorn was 850 and the most expensive item we've had was a 1300 dkp Ruby tear.

thats cause sanctum stopped pooping it for while, yall had like 40% of the competitive ones when yall sat there during the window. officers got all their bp's i guess

[7thGate]

Yeah, we did pretty good for a bit there. There's kind of a cascade success thing with that where we had a strong response for a bunch in a row, and then it became really easy to run more Vindis since we were doing it so much that you could almost always get the needed people without having to do too much other than call the window. That makes it easy on the raid leaders since we don't have to try and find people to log on and potentially move to see if we can get the roles filled.

Then since we're doing it so much people show up to get DKP or hang out or whatever since they know stuff is happening. And since we were doing it a lot people got good at the roles for the FTE and pull and we actually win a decent amount, so then it incentivizes people to come because something might actually be happening.

It also meant we could do stuff like Finalized's corpsed box of the voids for rampage tanking since there was a pretty good chance we would end up using them in a given week. Its not too bad to set up if you're actually going to use them, but its a bit too much if you're just going to have to recorpse them over and over.

Once we stopped killing him all the time, a lot of the momentum fades and its a lot of work to get it going again.

[Ciderpress]

oh and PoG / AoW too

ciderpress confirmed shitter

Yeah you can't beat any of those bosses without a bard. I mean, you can, but it's harder.

Point stands; bards are annoying douches.

[magnetaress]

Ciderpress r u brightleaf?

[Naethyn]

@franswa

[Ciderpress]

Ciderpress r u brightleaf?

I'm not sure what that means but no I'm just a member of the silent majority who think bards stink.

I mean yeah, they let you cheese the hardest fights in the game easier. Is that "skill" in everquest now?

[Ciderpress]

We never would have been able to defeat this boss if we hadn't subverted everything that's supposed to make it hard! Instead though, we prevail.

[WarpathEQ]

I'm not sure what that means but no I'm just a member of the silent majority who think bards stink.

I mean yeah, they let you cheese the hardest fights in the game easier. Is that "skill" in everquest now?

^ Clearly Never Played bard. Rolls Bard. Realizes they actually suck at EQ.

[Troxx]

Indeed. A well played bard is the unspoken hero of whatever group or raid they join. They are the WD40 of EverQuest.

Bard bards are just awful

… unless they at least remember to sing cantana with a lute.

If they can at least figure that shit out I will grudgingly tolerate them.

[Toxigen]

bard bard

[Troxx]

lol … bad bards

[Ciderpress]

^ Clearly Never Played bard. Rolls Bard. Realizes they actually suck at EQ.

I don't see how it would be fun other than running fast. I've never played a raid warrior either, but I can see how that would be fun (sheer big dick energy).

[magnetaress]

I'm not sure what that means but no I'm just a member of the silent majority who think bards stink.

I mean yeah, they let you cheese the hardest fights in the game easier. Is that "skill" in everquest now?

Silent majority u say...

[Naethyn]

When I was new to the server and a bard showed up at droga wanting to exp I invited him but after not seeing him melee at all I told him to dps and he said he didn’t have any weapons and I told him to go buy some and come back. He never came back. I’ve felt bad about this for a while but I’m still not completely sure I was unjustified.

[Trexller]

When I was new to the server and a bard showed up at droga wanting to exp I invited him but after not seeing him melee at all I told him to dps and he said he didn’t have any weapons and I told him to go buy some and come back. He never came back. I’ve felt bad about this for a while but I’m still not completely sure I was unjustified.

100% justified

any decent bards should be twisting 4 songs while swapping instruments between song casts and meleeing mobs

decent bards should have max hand to hand skill due to the melee swings while switching weapons/instruments

[WarpathEQ]

When I was new to the server and a bard showed up at droga wanting to exp I invited him but after not seeing him melee at all I told him to dps and he said he didn’t have any weapons and I told him to go buy some and come back. He never came back. I’ve felt bad about this for a while but I’m still not completely sure I was unjustified.

The first red flag was a bard was willing to group for exp at that level.

It depends on the circumstances but bards have a variety of methods for generating DPS and in some circumstances weapons might not be the best. The only weapon you'll see a bard have equipped 100% of the time in any level/scenario is the epic.

[Toxigen]

The first red flag was a bard was willing to group for exp at that level.


meh grouping is just more chill / fun

not er'body tryna DSM their way to 60