Shadow knight aggro

[Stonewallx39]

With the current state of disease cloud how are most Shadow Knights holding aggro? Do you just spam lowest level snare or does the higher level one’s generate enough aggro to justify the mana?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Clinging Darkness, Shroud of Hate, and Shadow Vortex are your three main spells. I don't think the higher level snares generate enough extra agro to justify the mana cost.

Shroud of Hate and Shadow Vortex do not break Mez. They are what you use when you want to frontload agro into a Mezed mob.

You can use all three on a mob when a group member is trying really hard to get agro. I usually have all three memed in a group.

Also use Taunt and Disarm. Those generate agro too. I have a macro that activates both at the same time.

Switching to a fast 1h weapon and shield will increase your agro generation if your group doesn't need the extra DPS from a 2h weapon.

Weapon procs help as well if you have them. But you generally don't need to go out of your way to buy and bag a high agro proc weapon. If a group member is pulling agro after using everything else mentioned above, that group member is probably doing something wrong. Or they are extremely well geared/buffed.

[Crede]

Blood ember gaunts. Try to get a frostreaver as well, eventually tuna sword.

[Stonewallx39]

Cool thanks, I have taunt at the top of my macro for clinging darkness to help with snap aggro and aggro on mez breaks.

[Snaggles]

What spell do you pull with? The first one is aggro-locked to like 10 damage (if that). Don't burn a long CD or expensive aggro spell unless it's already aggroed by someone.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What spell do you pull with? The first one is aggro-locked to like 10 damage (if that). Don't burn a long CD or expensive aggro spell unless it's already aggroed by someone.

If you are asking me, I typically use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blazing_Bracer_of_Fennin_Ro . Long range and not a bad cast time. I'll use Blood Ember Gauntlets instead if I need to split.

[Snaggles]

If you are asking me, I typically use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blazing_Bracer_of_Fennin_Ro . Long range and not a bad cast time. I'll use Blood Ember Gauntlets instead if I need to split.

Nah, the OP was asking about aggro issues.
I've always used a snare, even clinging, cheap...delays the pull slightly...sets up for an easy cast of a proper dmg spell.

Or a click I guess (or cancel magic).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah, the OP was asking about aggro issues.
I've always used a snare, even clinging, cheap...delays the pull slightly...sets up for an easy cast of a proper dmg spell.

Or a click I guess (or cancel magic).

I haven't had agro issues in camp due to the spell I've pulled with. It doesn't really matter from what I have seen. You just need to dump a bit of agro into the mob once they get into camp and it's fine.

It takes too long to snare the mob first and then pull it into camp since the mob runs slower. I'll only snare if I am splitting specifically.

[Snaggles]

I haven't had agro issues in camp due to the spell I've pulled with. It doesn't really matter from what I have seen. You just need to dump a bit of agro into the mob once they get into camp and it's fine.

It takes too long to snare the mob first and then pull it into camp since the mob runs slower. I'll only snare if I am splitting specifically.

My point is if someone is having aggro issues, pull with a non-hate spell (siphon strength for example, its fast and cheap), THEN use your aggro spell as the second one.

Or burn a cooldown and 40 mana on a spell that does 1 hate. Whatever floats your boat.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My point is if someone is having aggro issues, pull with a non-hate spell (siphon strength for example, its fast and cheap), THEN use your aggro spell as the second one.

Or burn a cooldown and 40 mana on a spell that does 1 hate. Whatever floats your boat.

Agreed. Yeah Siphon Strength is a great pulling spell if you don't have a good clickie. Super low mana cost and you can always use a bit more STR.

[greatdane]

Taunt only does anything if someone else has aggro. Don't put it in a macro, you'll waste it 97% of the time. You use taunt when you need aggro and don't already have it, not to build an aggro buffer. Bad tanks blow their taunt for no reason. Good tanks save it for when they need to take aggro from someone else. If your taunt is on cooldown when you lose aggro, you played badly.

[Guesty07]

Listen to greatdane. Taunt adds exactly 1 hate to a mob. Do not waste it. Hit it right after the shaman lands slow for extra Chad ness. Remember, it puts you at the top of the hate chart +1. And can only be used on blue or lower mobs

[Jimjam]

Taunt only does anything if someone else has aggro. Don't put it in a macro, you'll waste it 97% of the time. You use taunt when you need aggro and don't already have it, not to build an aggro buffer. Bad tanks blow their taunt for no reason. Good tanks save it for when they need to take aggro from someone else. If your taunt is on cooldown when you lose aggro, you played badly.

Sure you do put it in a macro. You put it in an attack off, taunt, bash, disarm, attack on macro so you can have a successful taunt, followed by a full round of attacks and a bit more aggro from bash/disarm. When you need to take aggro you press the button.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Taunt only does anything if someone else has aggro. Don't put it in a macro, you'll waste it 97% of the time. You use taunt when you need aggro and don't already have it, not to build an aggro buffer. Bad tanks blow their taunt for no reason. Good tanks save it for when they need to take aggro from someone else. If your taunt is on cooldown when you lose aggro, you played badly.

You are also "wasting" taunt by not using it. Taunt has a fast enough cooldown to where it can be spammed, and then used more strategically when necessary. The main benefit to spamming taunt is you can get hate back instantly if it happens to be timed right, and you don't have to think about it. This frees up your brain to focus on other things.

Remember that SK's have snap agro, which can be used outside of melee range, and it is more consistent than taunt. A good SK is going to use snap agro when they lose agro, instead of relying on taunt. You could waste precious seconds by trying to run into melee range to taunt first before starting to cast your snap agro spell.

If your group is constantly taking agro from you (and you aren't doing anything wrong), then saving taunt can be a good strategy. But honestly the bigger problem in that case is figuring out why you are always losing agro. Your ability to hit the taunt button at the proper time isn't the issue at that point.

[Guesty07]

Lol you should never ever just spam taunt. At all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol you should never ever just spam taunt. At all.

Taunt has a 6 second cooldown. Taunt will also go on cooldown if you attempt to use it on a mob that has run out of range, such as if the mob is running towards your cleric.

If the mob ran out of range, you want to use a snap agro spell since it can be cast outside of melee range. You have a better chance of success, and the 6 second cooldown on taunt will be back up by then.

If the mob is in range, such as turning to face the rogue, you still want to use snap agro to try and build a buffer. If the rogue is at the top of the hate list often, the rogue will simply return to the top of the list shortly after a successful taunt anyway. The issue at that point is either how the rogue is playing, or how you (the tank) is playing. It isn't an issue of if you are saving taunt or not.

Remember that taunt is unreliable. It isn't your primary method of agro generation.

[Snaggles]

My paladin doesn’t have disarm or taunt on the bar. The only thing I find make or break is disarming Bvellos and rogues/monks/warriors have 200 skill while we have 70.

IMHO, knowing the spells to cast, when to cast them, and using a GCD is what every knight should focus on. If you are relying on disarm and taunt you are being stingy.

[Guesty07]

Taunt is an incredible tool even for a knight

[Troxx]

You are also "wasting" taunt by not using it.

Lol.

No.

/facepalm

The only time I spam taunt or tether it to a macro is when I make a new character and want to mindlessly level it up. Tether it to kick/bash/slam and forget about it. Once you have taunt properly leveled, it should sit there unused until it NEEDS to be used.

I understand this button is a lot less crucial for knights but damn … this isn’t rocket surgery. If you’re already at the top of the aggro list, it does nothing. If you constantly spam it there’s a one in six chance you won’t have it up the instant you need it most … with a 1-5 second wait before you can use it again. If it fails the first time, you now have a 7-11 second wait for the second taunt instead of a faster 6 second 2nd attempt.

[Snaggles]

Taunt can fail.
Taunt is close range.

I tend to stay wayyyy at the top of the threat table. If someone pulls aggro IMHO it’s better to crank another quick aggro spell than chase and taunt. Any solid taunt spell will rip back a slowed mob NP.

[Guesty07]

That isn't taunts only application lol. You should never ever just spam it end of story

[Guesty07]

Taunt can give you 10x the amount of threat that any Spell can ever give you. Instantly. Do not waste it you armatures.

[Jimjam]

As this is a SK thread I think it is important to note that taunt can get you back to the top in case you had to throw out a FD.

[Snaggles]

Taunt can give you 10x the amount of threat that any Spell can ever give you. Instantly. Do not waste it you armatures.

A knight aggro spell will hold aggro over any other player with the exception of a GCD clicking bane wizard (theoretically, tho knights tanking those targets is rare). I expect, all the SK taps, flash of light, stuns, etc are close to 1k hate as is slow and other aggro spells. They also have faster cast rates and lower CD’s than most debuffs or nukes.

If a knight can’t keep aggro it’s the knights issue. I tank VSR without attacking and wizards go ham after about 10 seconds in. It never flips. If it did I guess I would put taunt back on my skill bar.

I’d agree completely though. Spamming it when you have aggro is stupid. It’s not doing any good.

[Guesty07]

Like is said, taunt can generate more agro than any other Spell or combination of spells. Not arguing your point that sk spells are good agro and if a Knight doesn't want to lose agro they won't. Still doesn't stop taunt doing what it does.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I hold agro just fine and get agro back quickly. Anybody who says saving taunt is some kind of pro strat is just being silly lol. It has a 6 second cooldown and is unreliable. Use it on codown if you want. I've done it for years without issue.

The only reason to say it would be bad is if you can prove it hurts your agro by doing it.

The benefit of using it on cooldown is you can get agro back if it happens to shift right before you use it. Less latency in getting agro back in those situations. If you are saving it you have a zero percent chance of this happening.

Taunt can fail.
Taunt is close range.

I tend to stay wayyyy at the top of the threat table. If someone pulls aggro IMHO it’s better to crank another quick aggro spell than chase and taunt. Any solid taunt spell will rip back a slowed mob NP.

Exactly. Any good SK is going to use their taunt spells immediately after you lose agro. They are ranged and are more reliable. Obviously use taunt as well, but that isn't the first tool you use when trying to get agro back most of the time. If taunt was that reliable (and thus worth saving), Warriors wouldn't have agro issues.

[Keebz]

The EV of a well timed taunt is orders of magnitude greater than spamming it for maybe 1 hate every 6 seconds. It effectively does nothing if you spam it.

[Snaggles]

Blowing it immediately off CD doesn’t provide any benefit. Burning bash/slam is not wise either (on a caster) but at least it does a modicum of damage.

I might just put taunt back on the bar. Save some mana and kick my feet up when it’s a low risk situation. Like after slow lands and it’s settled.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The EV of a well timed taunt is orders of magnitude greater than spamming it for maybe 1 hate every 6 seconds. It effectively does nothing if you spam it.

It does do something. If you are spamming it then you have a chance of automatically getting agro back when you lose it if it is timed right. You have a zero percent chance of this happening if you save it. Taunt cooldown is fast enough to where you don't have a high chance of happening to use Taunt 6 seconds before you lose agro.

Knights are going to prioritize agro spells over taunt most of the time. You could bind your agro spell and taunt to a macro if you want to do things that way, but you still have a chance of taunt being out of range if the mob runs away.

It's just a numbers game of spamming it to get a chance at it succeeding vs. saving it and chancing it failing due to range issues. Remember when casting spells you can't move.

[Keebz]

It does do something. If you are spamming it then you have a chance of automatically getting agro back when you lose it if it is timed right.

So in your mind, spamming it and hoping to get the timing right is better than deliberately timing it right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So in your mind, spamming it and hoping to get the timing right is better than deliberately timing it right?

Often times it can be, yes. It frees up your brain to focus on other things. If you need to save taunt and use it strategically every 30 seconds because the rogue is constantly taking agro, you have bigger issues lol. Saving or spamming taunt is not the problem in this group.

[Jimjam]

If you don’t mash it is easier to see who is higher on the aggro totem so you can also predict when they’ll next over aggro and preplan to stop them taking aggro.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you don’t mash it is easier to see who is higher on the aggro totem so you can also predict when they’ll next over aggro and preplan to stop them taking aggro.

If you are paying attention to which group members are doing what, you can predict hate that way. If a group member is mindlessly spamming high agro spells for no reason, the solution to this is to tell them to stop, or find another group. The solution isn't to try and figure out a more optimal taunt rotation lol.

Taunt will always be a secondary agro generation tool for Knights because it is unreliable. Snap agro is going to be more reliable. That isn't me saying you shouldn't use it. You should use taunt. But if you are at a point where you are relying on stragetic taunts to get agro off of people, your group has bigger problems. Either the tank (yourself) is bad at generating buffer hate, or your group members don't know how to manage their agro properly.

Taunt has a 6 second cooldown. You will get it back quickly regardless of how you are using it. If taunt had like a 30 second cooldown with a higher chance of success, I would 100% agree that saving it is the better strategy. But that isn't how taunt works on P99.

[Guesty07]

What an idiot. Guy really said spamming taunt is BETTER than using it appropriately ROFL

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What an idiot. Guy really said spamming taunt is BETTER than using it appropriately ROFL

Yes, a non-zero percent chance of automatically getting agro back is better than a zero percent chance. Pretty simple math. Spamming Taunt gives you this. Saving it doesn't. The chance of you taunting right before losing agro, and thus having to wait a full 6 seconds, is pretty small.

Again, if you are at the point where you need to save taunt because your group is constantly taking agro from you as a Knight, you have bigger strategic issues.

[Guesty07]

Nobody actually believes the nonsense you try to pedal. For new, aspiring players, do not waste taunt on a target you already have agro on.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nobody actually believes the nonsense you try to pedal. For new, aspiring players, do not waste taunt on a target you already have agro on.

You have no counter to my points. Please stop telling people saving taunt is some sort of pro strategy on a Knight. Basic math proves you wrong, which is why you have no counter points.

For new players, focus on snap agro. That is how you will succeed as a tank. Save or spam taunt, both strategies work fine. Freeing up your brain to focus on positioning and snap agroing is generally going to work better than caring about trying to taunt at the precise time. Taunt is unreliable, which means you can't assume it is going to work.

Taunt is just a random numbers game. Either you spam it and chance having it on cooldown at the wrong time, or you save it and chance wasting it by using it when the mob is out of range. Both strategies have their pros and cons, but neither are reliable enough to be depended on.

[Keebz]

Yes, a non-zero percent chance of automatically getting agro back is better than a zero percent chance.

There is not a zero percent chance of using taunt deliberately to effect. Mob flips, hit taunt, mob faces you again. It isn't rocket science.

Yes yes, strategically it would be better if the mob never flipped to begin with, but shit happens—people slow early, you get stunned/pushed so miss a round of attacks and spells, etc. This is the same scenario your spam approach would apply to as well.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is not a zero percent chance of using taunt deliberately to effect. Mob flips, hit taunt, mob faces you again. It isn't rocket science.

Yes yes, strategically it would be better if the mob never flipped to begin with, but shit happens—people slow early, you get stunned/pushed so miss a round of attacks and spells, etc. This is the same scenario your spam approach would apply to as well.

If you never use taunt on cooldown, you have a zero percent chance of it automatically working. That is what I am saying. I didn't say that using taunt deliberately has a zero percent chance of success. You can switch between both strategies as well, taunt only has a 6 second cooldown.

I am not saying using taunt strategically is a bad idea. I am simply refuting the strange claim that spamming taunt does nothing. Both methods give you a chance to taunt to effect.

Taunt is just a random numbers game. Either you spam taunt and have a chance for it to automatically work, or you use taunt strategically and have a chance to waste it due to the mob running out of range. There are pros and cons to both strategies. At the end of the day taunt is still unreliable, which means neither strategy should be relied upon. If you are at the point where you are trying to use taunt reliably, that means your group is doing something wrong. You are desperate.

[Ripqozko]

If you never use taunt on cooldown, you have a zero percent chance of it automatically working. That is what I am saying. I didn't say that using taunt deliberately has a zero percent chance of success. You can switch between both strategies as well, taunt only has a 6 second cooldown.

I am not saying using taunt strategically is a bad idea. I am simply refuting the strange claim that spamming taunt does nothing. Both methods give you a chance to taunt to effect.

Taunt is just a random numbers game. Either you spam taunt and have a chance for it to automatically work, or you use taunt strategically and have a chance to waste it due to the mob running out of range. There are pros and cons to both strategies. At the end of the day taunt is still unreliable, which means neither strategy should be relied upon. If you are at the point where you are trying to use taunt reliably, that means your group is doing something wrong. You are desperate.

Taunt is dumb to spam and only time a knight needs is for after another tank dies to get +1. Any other conversation is dumb too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Taunt is dumb to spam and only time a knight needs is for after another tank dies to get +1. Any other conversation is dumb too.

You have nothing to back up this claim. Just saying something is "dumb" isn't an argument.

There is no reason to rely on the unreliable. Whether you spam taunt or save it, you are just playing a random numbers game as to if it works. Taunt isn't a long cooldown, high success skill. If it was I would agree with you. Taunt is a fast cooldown low success skill.

The reason why Knights are better at generating agro is because they have a reliable way to do it. They aren't playing the random numbers game of taunt and weapon procs. Knights use taunt because they have it, so you might as well use it. They aren't relying on it.

[Ripqozko]

You have nothing to back up this claim. Just saying something is "dumb" isn't an argument.

There is no reason to rely on the unreliable. Whether you spam taunt or save it, you are just playing a random numbers game as to if it works. Taunt isn't a long cooldown, high success skill. If it was I would agree with you. Taunt is a fast cooldown low success skill.

The reason why Knights are better at generating agro is because they have a reliable way to do it. They aren't playing the random numbers game of taunt and weapon procs. Knights use taunt because they have it, so you might as well use it. They aren't relying on it.

I take it back, DSM is worse than the weapon swap PvP guy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I take it back, DSM is worse than the weapon swap PvP guy.

You are doing the same thing as the weapon swap guy. Making up claims with nothing to back it up lol. Look in the mirror first:) You have nothing to suggest that using taunt on cooldown is significantly worse.

[Snaggles]

Are you really arguing +1 hate every 6 seconds is better than waiting for the exact instant it could be noticeably helpful?

IMHO, I’d pick better hills to die on.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are you really arguing +1 hate every 6 seconds is better than waiting for the exact instant it could be noticeably helpful?

IMHO, I’d pick better hills to die on.

1. +1 hate every 6 seconds is better than +0 hate every 6 seconds. Something is better than nothing. You also have a chance of taunt working at the instant it is needed. If you never press the taunt button because you are too afraid of using it, this will never happen.

2. Taunt is unreliable. You should never assume it will work. Focus on using snap agro, which is reliable. If you can't build up an agro buffer on an SK, that is your problem. It isn't your skill at pressing taunt.

3. Taunt has a 6 second cooldown, so you can always switch your tactics as needed. Spam taunt whenever you want, and switch to using it strategically if the Rogue is taking agro all the time. If that is happening, however, you need to fix the problem of the Rogue always taking agro. The solution is not to rely on taunt to do the work.

4. I am not dying on any hills. It is simply trivial to rebut the argument that spamming taunt has no benefits. I've tanked for years on my SK, and I can't remember any scenario where I had a problem due to taunt being on cooldown when I lost agro. An experienced SK will use snap agro spells and positioning to keep agro. The issue is you are putting way too much emphasis on the idea that a well timed taunt is a reliable method of agro generation. It simply is not. That is why your argument falls apart. If taunt was reliable, we wouldn't be having endless discussions about Warrior agro issues.

[Stonewallx39]

Taunt only does anything if someone else has aggro. Don't put it in a macro, you'll waste it 97% of the time. You use taunt when you need aggro and don't already have it, not to build an aggro buffer. Bad tanks blow their taunt for no reason. Good tanks save it for when they need to take aggro from someone else. If your taunt is on cooldown when you lose aggro, you played badly.

I mained a warrior to 60 so I’m pretty familiar with how taunt works. As a knight I mostly use my spells for aggro purposes. If I’m casting my aggro spell via the macro I’m trying to get aggro back, which taunt could help with gaining immediately without having to wait for the spell to land. Then when the spell lands it should theoretically push me further up the aggro list.

Now if I already have aggro and I’m just sinking more in then yeah it doesn’t do much so usually just click my binding for the raw spell or accept that I wasted a click of taunt (which I’m not so concerned with as I’ll just cast a spell via my macro to get aggro back).

[Gloomlord]

DSM has "tanked for years", yet somehow can't figure out why spamming taunt when it's already maxed out is a bad idea?

DSM, just stop giving advice already. You're embarrassing us all, and misleading newbies who might come into the game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM has "tanked for years", yet somehow can't figure out why spamming taunt when it's already maxed out is a bad idea?

DSM, just stop giving advice already. You're embarrassing us all, and misleading newbies who might come into the game.

Insulting people isn't an argument. You already have well over 400 posts that are just trolling, insults, and nonsense. That is over 80% of you post history. Will you ever post something useful on these forums?

You haven't explained your position at all. Please enlighten us as to why spammimg a skill with a 6 second cooldown and a low success rate is a bad idea. With a cooldown of only 6 seconds you can switch your taunt strategy whenever you want if you are losing agro a lot. You gain nothing from simply ignoring your taunt button and never pressing it.

[Guesty07]

You are an armature that I won't give the time of day to. Learn to play better. Bad bad bad tank thinking taunt only has 1 use application. Gooodbye

[Crede]

Insulting people isn't an argument. You already have well over 400 posts that are just trolling, insults, and nonsense. That is over 80% of you post history. Will you ever post something useful on these forums?

You haven't explained your position at all. Please enlighten us as to why spammimg a skill with a 6 second cooldown and a low success rate is a bad idea. With a cooldown of only 6 seconds you can switch your taunt strategy whenever you want if you are losing agro a lot. You gain nothing from simply ignoring your taunt button and never pressing it.

If you’re “switching your taunt strategy”, you’ve already failed. You have no idea when you’ll need to switch, so just don’t do it. You can’t have it both ways. Spamming taunt has a much lower chance of being available when you actually need it. Getting +1 aggro every 6 seconds is effectively nothing as nobody is maintaining held aggro because of taunt spam. You should be conserving your APM to focus on things that actually matter.

I’ll add this to my list of bizarre theories this guy has put out.

[Danth]

The reason either utilization of Taunt works is because it's a minor ability for a shadowknight (or paladin) in the first place. You could take it off your ability bar entirely and you'd barely notice. It isn't fair to call taunt-spam unworkable when it's standard practice for pretty well all leveling tanks who need to spam it to level the skill. At the same time, it's ineffective for anything *but* leveling the skill since +1 aggro (when the tank already has aggro) is next-to-nothing and meaningless in practice. Pushing it when you have maxed skill amounts to, more or less, doing something because you want to feel like you're doing something. It doesn't hurt, but isn't helping either.

For my part I regard taunt as typically not worth the button press except where I'm using it to even up aggro on a mezzed mob or for peeling something someone else had a large threat lead on. Even in those types of situations I never *count* on it working--it's just a nice bonus, when it works. Same for the rare occasions an overzealous group member or partner might pull aggro--sure I'll hit taunt, but I'm also casting proper high-threat spells, and never assuming taunt will work. Nice when it does, but that is all. A knight doesn't need taunt for holding threat, and if he does, he's a poor knight.

Some tank players will macro disarm and beg together for whatever little threat it generates.

(edit) Just don't keep mashing taunt when you're not the only tank present, and not supposed to be the one mainly getting hit. Sometimes it can be an issue with freshly-leveled tanks used to mashing it. Constantly ping-ponging aggro gets annoying in a hurry. I presume everyone reading these posts already knows this.

[Penish]

oh look, another dsm is wrong thread

also lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The reason either utilization of Taunt works is because it's a minor ability for a shadowknight (or paladin) in the first place. You could take it off your ability bar entirely and you'd barely notice.
...


Exacltly. Everything you said is correct in your full post. The only disagreement I have here is spamming taunt does give you a chance to taunt at the right time without effort. So it isn't completely ineffective. But we both agree taunt isn't relaible anyway, so it's just a small bonus chance of doing something.

If you’re “switching your taunt strategy”, you’ve already failed. You have no idea when you’ll need to switch, so just don’t do it. You can’t have it both ways. Spamming taunt has a much lower chance of being available when you actually need it. Getting +1 aggro every 6 seconds is effectively nothing as nobody is maintaining held aggro because of taunt spam. You should be conserving your APM to focus on things that actually matter.

I’ll add this to my list of bizarre theories this guy has put out.

Yes, if you need to rely on taunt you have failed. That is what I have been saying the entire time.

You can put taunt, disarm, beg, and slam/bash on the same macro for regular fights when you aren't trying to interrupt spells or deal with mezed mobs. It saves you APM and gives you a chance to taunt at the right time. Just spam it and generate all the hate you can, while giving yourself a chance to taunt at the right time. Just use a different macro page if you need to separate slam/bash and make a macro for just taunt/beg/disarm if you want to frontload agro into a mezed mob. Or always keep them separate if it doesn't bother you to press 2 buttons instead of 1.

Saying that spamming taunt is somehow going to put you in a situation where not having it for 2 seconds is a going to be a major problem is really silly lol. I have never been in a situation where having taunt on cooldown was a problem. This is because taunt isn't a skill you rely on in the first place.

[Danth]

Right. I've played my own character long enough to know you're referring to second-tier content where you're not trying all that hard and where, consequently, something might flip once in awhile. Nobody plays this game for any length of time going 100% all-out all the time. If a shadowknight/paladin is serious, he ain't losing aggro--period--making the whole conversation about taunt moot. It's a perk of the class.

So, yeah, like you say, keep taunt available in the rare occasions it actually matters. Otherwise, spam it, don't spam it, in practice it doesn't matter overmuch either way and your group will get the job done regardless. If you want to push the extra button and have more fun playing that way, it harms nobody and you get the satisfaction of seeing the monster yell at you in /say once in awhile.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Right. I've played my own character long enough to know you're referring to second-tier content where you're not trying all that hard and where, consequently, something might flip once in awhile. Nobody plays this game for any length of time going 100% all-out all the time. If a shadowknight/paladin is serious, he ain't losing aggro--period--making the whole conversation about taunt moot. It's a perk of the class.

So, yeah, like you say, keep taunt available in the rare occasions it actually matters. Otherwise, spam it, don't spam it, in practice it doesn't matter overmuch either way and your group will get the job done regardless. If you want to push the extra button and have more fun playing that way, it harms nobody and you get the satisfaction of seeing the monster yell at you in /say once in awhile.

Exactly!

[Gloomlord]

Insulting people isn't an argument. You already have well over 400 posts that are just trolling, insults, and nonsense. That is over 80% of you post history. Will you ever post something useful on these forums?

Imagine if I didn't engage you on that thread before -- I wonder what stupid excuse you would have used instead? Getting pretty tiresome you bringing that up, because noone else cares about that fact but you.

Only reason you bring it up is some vain attempt at an insult whilst trying to create the illusion you have the moral high ground...in your own mind.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Imagine if I didn't engage you on that thread before -- I wonder what stupid excuse you would have used instead? Getting pretty tiresome you bringing that up, because noone else cares about that fact but you.

Only reason you bring it up is some vain attempt at an insult whilst trying to create the illusion you have the moral high ground...in your own mind.

I am just calling you out for the troll you are. If you are getting tired of people exposing your trolling, the solution is to stop trolling.

Stick to the topic at hand and explain why you think I am wrong. It's really that simple.

[Snaggles]

Exactly!

You can’t hitch your wagon to his logic. Nobody is disputing taunt is needed for knights. I’ve been tanking raid and group content at 60 without it on the bar for years. As have many here.

We are disputing your ridiculous logic that mashing it every 6 seconds is as good as waiting until it’s needed. Once again, illustrating how little about mechanics and math you know about despite beating your chest as the champion of EQ analytics.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can’t hitch your wagon to his logic. Nobody is disputing taunt is needed for knights. I’ve been tanking raid and group content at 60 without it on the bar for years. As have many here.

We are disputing your ridiculous logic that mashing it every 6 seconds is as good as waiting until it’s needed. Once again, illustrating how little about mechanics and math you know about despite beating your chest as the champion of EQ analytics.

As usual, you aren't reading anything I said. Show me where I said spamming taunt is as good as waiting to use it. I didn't say that anywhere.

I am simply refuting the ridiculous argument that spamming taunt does nothing, or it hurts your tanking.

What Danth said is what I have been saying, you just aren't reading. Please stop making strawmen because you can't be bothered to read for an extra few seconds.

[Snaggles]

As usual, you aren't reading anything I said. Show me where I said spamming taunt is as good as waiting to use it. I didn't say that anywhere.

I am simply refuting the ridiculous argument that spamming taunt does nothing, or it hurts your tanking.

What Danth said is what I have been saying, you just aren't reading. Please stop making strawmen because you can't be bothered to read for an extra few seconds.

1. +1 hate every 6 seconds is better than +0 hate every 6 seconds. Something is better than nothing. You also have a chance of taunt working at the instant it is needed. If you never press the taunt button because you are too afraid of using it, this will never happen.

3. Taunt has a 6 second cooldown, so you can always switch your tactics as needed. Spam taunt whenever you want, and switch to using it strategically if the Rogue is taking agro all the time. If that is happening, however, you need to fix the problem of the Rogue always taking agro. The solution is not to rely on taunt to do the work.



Seek help.

[Snaggles]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Seek help.

Yes, seek help at learning to read better. There is nothing in that quote that says they are equally as good. Me listing out the benefits of spamming taunt is not me saying that one strategy is superior over the other. Again, I am refuting the idea that spamming taunt has no value.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost

There is very little opportunity cost at using a low success 6 second cooldown skill. Especially since a Knight is not relying on taunt to begin with. If taunt had a 30 second cooldown with a high chance of success I would agree with you.

[PatChapp]

What kind of APM are we talking about here for knight classes.
1 spell,auto attack and watch?

[Ripqozko]

The reason either utilization of Taunt works is because it's a minor ability for a shadowknight (or paladin) in the first place. You could take it off your ability bar entirely and you'd barely notice. It isn't fair to call taunt-spam unworkable when it's standard practice for pretty well all leveling tanks who need to spam it to level the skill. At the same time, it's ineffective for anything *but* leveling the skill since +1 aggro (when the tank already has aggro) is next-to-nothing and meaningless in practice. Pushing it when you have maxed skill amounts to, more or less, doing something because you want to feel like you're doing something. It doesn't hurt, but isn't helping either.

For my part I regard taunt as typically not worth the button press except where I'm using it to even up aggro on a mezzed mob or for peeling something someone else had a large threat lead on. Even in those types of situations I never *count* on it working--it's just a nice bonus, when it works. Same for the rare occasions an overzealous group member or partner might pull aggro--sure I'll hit taunt, but I'm also casting proper high-threat spells, and never assuming taunt will work. Nice when it does, but that is all. A knight doesn't need taunt for holding threat, and if he does, he's a poor knight.

Some tank players will macro disarm and beg together for whatever little threat it generates.

(edit) Just don't keep mashing taunt when you're not the only tank present, and not supposed to be the one mainly getting hit. Sometimes it can be an issue with freshly-leveled tanks used to mashing it. Constantly ping-ponging aggro gets annoying in a hurry. I presume everyone reading these posts already knows this.

like i said way back , taunt is great for +1 when you arent the main tank and re establishing threat as you havent began to cast 30x into the mob. the +1 can help you get up before you start spamming spells. spamming taunt is dumb. its a case use thing to help establish your threat if you werent the one tanking first, otherwise knights aint losing it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

like i said way back , taunt is great for +1 when you arent the main tank and re establishing threat as you havent began to cast 30x into the mob. the +1 can help you get up before you start spamming spells. spamming taunt is dumb. its a case use thing to help establish your threat if you werent the one tanking first, otherwise knights aint losing it.

You are still unable to explain why it is dumb. Simply saying it is dumb isn't an argument unfortunately. You are acting like Z right now.

[Ripqozko]

You are still unable to explain why it is dumb. Simply saying it is dumb isn't an argument unfortunately. You are acting like Z right now.

dont project, every single one of your threads is the same. its dumb because +1 isnt helping you, its a tool used to put yourself +1 which is nice if you are picking up off a dead tank. is it hurting you to spam? no, its it helping you? no. its just dumb like your whole point of view in 99% of these threads. You spam over and over a dumb point of view and always try to be right and last. good luck to you and kittens.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

dont project, every single one of your threads is the same. its dumb because +1 isnt helping you, its a tool used to put yourself +1 which is nice if you are picking up off a dead tank. is it hurting you to spam? no, its it helping you? no. its just dumb like your whole point of view in 99% of these threads. You spam over and over a dumb point of view and always try to be right and last. good luck to you and kittens.

It does help you. You have a percent chance for taunt to work when needed if you spam it. Ignoring that fact is silly. Not pressing taunt at all is when you get nothing.

[Snaggles]

Shadow Votex does like 1000x more threat for 40 mana and the same amount of clicks.
Only one situation will taunt peel as good or better and it’s not the one you care to wait for. If you did, you might be able to save some mana since DC is currently broken.

Continue to use taunt incorrectly. It doesn’t matter. Hit begging, disarm, and fishing too while you’re at it. I prob won’t even put it on my bar but it’s funny to think you’re mashing it off CD thinking it’s helping.

Edit: I just realized randomly taunting in hopes it would work to your benefit (the fraction of a second you aren’t top threat) is the same argument you used for FSI. I take it all back and want off this ride. See you on page 30.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shadow Votex does like 1000x more threat for 40 mana and the same amount of clicks.
Only one situation will taunt peel as good or better and it’s not the one you care to wait for. If you did, you might be able to save some mana since DC is currently broken.

Continue to use taunt incorrectly. It doesn’t matter. Hit begging, disarm, and fishing too while you’re at it. I prob won’t even put it on my bar but it’s funny to think you’re mashing it off CD thinking it’s helping.

Edit: I just realized randomly taunting in hopes it would work to your benefit (the fraction of a second you aren’t too threat) is the same argument you used for FSI. I take it all back and want off this ride. See you on page 30.

Yes, snap agro is better than taunt. Nobody has said otherwise.

Spamming taunt is not incorrect usage. Please stop spreading misinformation. The only way to misuse taunt is to taunt when you shouldn't be trying to get agro.

Spamming taunt is generating more agro and giving you a chance to taunt at the right time. That is better than not using taunt and getting nothing. You can always switch to strategic taunt usage if your group needs it. Your group is not going to wipe because taunt is 2 seconds from coming off cooldown when you lose agro.

Yes, FSI is good too. Having a chance to avoid getting a slow interrupted is better than not having that chance.

Your idea that zero is better than non-zero is silly.

[Gloomlord]

I am just calling you out for the troll you are. If you are getting tired of people exposing your trolling, the solution is to stop trolling.

Stick to the topic at hand and explain why you think I am wrong. It's really that simple.

I mean, does it even need to be explained at this point? Taunt may be used less for knights, but it's still a potential instantaneous snap aggro ability. Taunt can save a charmer from a charm break, it can hitch a ride on all that threat/hate on that mob the Bard was snaring etc.

It's utterly moronic to continuously spam this ability when it only generates 1 point of hate/threat if you're at the top of the list already. Come on! As Troxx said: it's not rocket science.

Furthermore:https://media.tenor.com/mZZoOtDcouoAAAAM/stop-it-get-some-help.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean, does it even need to be explained at this point? Taunt may be used less for knights, but it's still a potential instantaneous snap aggro ability. Taunt can save a charmer from a charm break, it can hitch a ride on all that threat/hate on that mob the Bard was snaring etc.

It's utterly moronic to continuously spam this ability when it only generates 1 point of hate/threat if you're at the top of the list already. Come on! As Troxx said: it's not rocket science.



You keep forgetting to explain why spamming taunt is "moronic".

Simply repeating the strategy of using taunt at the proper time doesn't explain why spamming taunt is bad.

You seem to be forgetting multiple points, so let me remind you:

1. Taunt has a 6 second cooldown with a low success rate. Please stop treating taunt like a reliable tool, such as Defensive Disc. That is being disingenuous at best.

2. Knights never rely on taunt for agro generation. It's a bonus tool you can use to increase your chances of success, that is all.

3. If you rarely/never use taunt, you get literally nothing from it. Something is better than nothing, even if it's 1 point of hate.

I hope you can explain your position in your next post, and not simply repeat the alternate strategy.

[Gloomlord]

I literally list two examples of why it can be useful, but you ignore it to tell me that knights don't need it for aggro.

I have a 57 Paladin. I know you don't need taunt to hold aggro. However, I still use taunt in emergencies and for stealing aggro someone else has built up over a fight. I don't constantly spam taunt, because I know it still has some uses.

I've been playing this game for a fraction of the time you have, and even I know this. You're just arrogant bad player. It's obvious you just chime in threads to inflate your fragile ego.

I mean, for Christ sake, I actually mouseturn and keybind my spells and abilities. From what I've seen of your videos, you can't even do that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I literally list two examples of why it can be useful, but you ignore it to tell me that knights don't need it for aggro.

I have a 57 Paladin. I know you don't need taunt to hold aggro. However, I still use taunt in emergencies and for stealing aggro someone else has built up over a fight. I don't constantly spam taunt, because I know it still has some uses.

I've been playing this game for a fraction of the time you have, and even I know this. You're just arrogant bad player. It's obvious you just chime in threads to inflate your fragile ego.

I mean, for Christ sake, I actually mouseturn and keybind my spells and abilities. From what I've seen of your videos, you can't even do that.

Nobody is disagreeing with the point that using taunt at the proper time can be useful. Why do you keep making this point? You do realize taunt has a 6 second cooldown, correct? You can switch strategies at any time if you notice your group is constantly acquiring agro.

You still haven't said anything that shows spamming taunt is bad. Maybe you should stop assuming you know everything?

It is also pretty clear you haven't watched my videos very closely if that is your takeaway lol. I also mouseturn and keybind my spells and abilities. I keyboard turn as well, and mouse click stuff that doesn't need to be spammed, because it feels comfortable for me and works fast enough. I am not claiming I am the best player out there. You don't need to be to know how the game works.

[Gloomlord]

So why would I use this ability every 6 seconds for only 1 point of hate/threat? That's absolutely miniscule compared to using it for a potential emergency that can arise in a dungeon with a group.

Just stop posting, already. Do you honestly think anyone likes having you around at this point?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So why would I use this ability every 6 seconds for only 1 point of hate/threat? That's absolutely miniscule compared to using it for a potential emergency that can arise in a dungeon with a group.

Just stop posting, already. Do you honestly think anyone likes having you around at this point?

Why do you upgrade a piece of equipment to get +20HP? Realistically speaking that is also only increasing your survival odds by a very small percentage. But I assume you would be happy to get that kind of an upgrade.

The reason is very simple. Every little bit helps, and it could make a difference. 1% is better than 0%.

[Gloomlord]

Did you honestly just compare getting 20+ HP to using an ability to gain 1 point of hate? When it can be used to help strip aggro off in an instant?

https://media.tenor.com/blWhg3-6rsAAAAAC/star-trek-picard.gif

Yeah, nobody is taking you seriously anymore. Checkmate, narcissist.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did you honestly just compare getting 20+ HP to using an ability to gain 1 point of hate? When it can be used to help strip aggro off in an instant?


You forgot that taunt is unreliable, so you can never assume it is going to work. Please stop using this false analogy that taunt is similar to something like Defensive Disc.

Back to my point. You do understand that getting +20 HP on an item is also a very small increase in your survival, correct? It's probably less than a +1% chance you are going to survive. Why? Because at level 60 mobs are hitting for 150+. It's pure luck if you happen to live with only 20 HP remaining.

[Gloomlord]

So what if taunt is unreliable? It can work and it can help. That's better than 1 point of hate every 6 seconds. What if 2 mobs come in and start whacking the enchanter? One successful taunt, and then I can potentially focus my aggro spells on the other one.

You're impermeable to reason.

[Guesty07]

What a tool. Stop engaging with him. Everybody knows he's wrong, he's the only person who thinks he's right.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So what if taunt is unreliable? It can work and it can help. That's better than 1 point of hate every 6 seconds. What if 2 mobs come in and start whacking the enchanter? One successful taunt, and then I can potentially focus my aggro spells on the other one.

You're impermeable to reason.

If two mobs start whacking the enchanter, you cast your agro spells. Put taunt in when it's back from cooldown, it's only a 6 second timer at worst. Where is the problem here? If you were spamming taunt, it is possible the mob would never have gone to the Enchanter too. This is either from the few extra points generated, or the chance of taunt happening to be hit at the same time the Enchanter gains agro.

What a tool. Stop engaging with him. Everybody knows he's wrong, he's the only person who thinks he's right.

Incorrect. Please stop posting nonsense. If you think I am wrong, explain yourself properly.

[Gloomlord]

I refuse to engage with this lunatic further. He really needs to stop posting at this point.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I refuse to engage with this lunatic further. He really needs to stop posting at this point.

As you can see, you have nothing to refute my points. Thank you for admitting you have no ability to show that spamming taunt is "moronic". I accept your concession.

Spamming Taunt and holding Taunt for the right time are both perfectly viable strategies. Taunt has a fast enough cooldown to where you can always switch your tactics when needed. There are pros and cons to both strategies. There is no evidence to suggest one strategy is unusable, or provides no benefit/a negative effect.

[Jimjam]

If you were spamming taunt, it is possible the mob would never have gone to the Enchanter too.

There is another reason too. While a mob is rooted the tank may lose aggro without realising. Periodically taunting rooted mobs can be helpful to ensure they don’t run off after another groupmate when root fades/breaks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is another reason too. While a mob is rooted the tank may lose aggro without realising. Periodically taunting rooted mobs can be helpful to ensure they don’t run off after another groupmate when root fades/breaks.

That's a great point! I never thought about that scenario before.

[Guesty07]

You keep spamming your taunt button you bad tank �� meanwhile, I will save it to ensure it is ready to use the very second I decide I need it. Of course you never thought about that scenario before because you're bad. You gave 1 use case scenario for taunt and that's it. You've clearly never played a warrior before. Maybe try it and learn some tips on how SKs use our taunt.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You keep spamming your taunt button you bad tank �� meanwhile, I will save it to ensure it is ready to use the very second I decide I need it. Of course you never thought about that scenario before because you're bad. You gave 1 use case scenario for taunt and that's it. You've clearly never played a warrior before. Maybe try it and learn some tips on how SKs use our taunt.

You are also unable to explain why spamming taunt is bad. Thank you for conceding and admitting you are wrong via rage post.

[Gloomlord]

I think we all need to come to some unspoken agreement here to stop speaking to DSM. I'm usually against the silent treatment for people, but DSM is such an abrasive, childish person who makes the most inane arguments that noone else on the forums make (apart from maybe Zuranthium). I think it's warranted.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think we all need to come to some unspoken agreement here to speaking to DSM. I'm usually against the silent treatment for people, but DSM is such an abrasive, childish person who makes the most inane arguments that noone else on the forums make (apart from maybe Zuranthium). I think it's warranted.

Still trolling? You probably have 85% troll posts in your history now, well over 450 in total. Hopefully one day you will write a post on these forums that isn't childish. I still think you can improve yourself. Please do!

[Gloomlord]

https://i.redd.it/6cz312451v651.jpg

[Danth]

like i said way back , taunt is great for +1 when you arent the main tank and re establishing threat as you havent began to cast 30x into the mob. the +1 can help you get up before you start spamming spells. spamming taunt is dumb. its a case use thing to help establish your threat if you werent the one tanking first, otherwise knights aint losing it.

Yeah, we're very much on the same page. I prefer to call it pointless rather than dumb simply because such spam isn't hurting anything, either. +5-8 or so aggro per minute very much is pointless because in no world will it ever make a difference. It's too small a value. Neither is it hurting anyone though in a single-tank environment.

I like Jimjam's notion that it may help an inexperienced tank who can't tell if he has aggro or not against rooted targets. That didn't even occur to me. I've done this job so long I've long since developed a sense for whether or not I'm generating sufficient threat and can't "think like a newbie" anymore. That's a fair use for it, then, in that situation for less-experienced players. That's the forum at its best--seeing ideas I would not think of on my own.

Closest I get to "taunt spam" is I'll more or less spam it on mezzed creatures (NOT my primary target obviously--lot of target-switching going on) to try to keep threat on them. Years ago I used to tag mezzed creatures with 0-damage spells, but that tactic grew too mana intensive when the P99 enchanter meta changed to spamming low-rank mez that memblurs constantly, hence wiping out my efforts. Taunt doesn't work as well--but it's free, and free is important in that environment. Still isn't necessary and could be called pointless work on my part, but I like to save the enchanter as many hits as I can since rune spells cost some money and my abilities cost nothing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah, we're very much on the same page. I prefer to call it pointless rather than dumb simply because such spam isn't hurting anything, either. +5-8 or so aggro per minute very much is pointless because in no world will it ever make a difference. It's too small a value. Neither is it hurting anyone though in a single-tank environment.


I took a look at my logs, which cover a few years of me playing off and on. Most of these logs were low blues (39 to upper 40s). 9000 taunts yielded about 4500 successes. Taunt seems to have roughly a 50% success rate in that situation when the skill is over 200. You aren't just getting a +1 to hate every 6 seconds. You are also getting a passive 8.33% chance to taunt a mob automatically at the right time. The 8.33% is 50% divided by 6 seconds. That is certainly not pointless in my book. This is especially true since you can just put taunt/disarm/beg/bash/slam on the same macro in single tank situations. SK's only have 5 fast cooldown combat skills, which is the same number of lines in a macro. It takes very little effort to get that 8.33% chance.

As I said before, you can always switch between taunt spam and targeted taunting as needed due to it's 6 second cooldown. In a group where everybody is playing correctly, agro loss is fairly rare to begin with. If you are at the point where the Enchanter is grabbing agro every 30 seconds, you need to figure out why that is happening, instead of relying on taunt to fix the problem. I think that might be the disconnect here. People don't seem to realize that you shouldn't normally be in a situation where you are using taunt often in a targeted situation. That is yet another reason why taunt spam generally isn't going to have a large opportunity cost.


I like Jimjam's notion that it may help an inexperienced tank who can't tell if he has aggro or not against rooted targets. That didn't even occur to me. I've done this job so long I've long since developed a sense for whether or not I'm generating sufficient threat and can't "think like a newbie" anymore. That's a fair use for it, then, in that situation for less-experienced players. That's the forum at its best--seeing ideas I would not think of on my own.


Agreed!


Closest I get to "taunt spam" is I'll more or less spam it on mezzed creatures (NOT my primary target obviously--lot of target-switching going on) to try to keep threat on them. Years ago I used to tag mezzed creatures with 0-damage spells, but that tactic grew too mana intensive when the P99 enchanter meta changed to spamming low-rank mez that memblurs constantly, hence wiping out my efforts. Taunt doesn't work as well--but it's free, and free is important in that environment. Still isn't necessary and could be called pointless work on my part, but I like to save the enchanter as many hits as I can since rune spells cost some money and my abilities cost nothing.

Indeed. Taunting or using shroud of hate/shadow vortex on mezzed mobs is a good way to build agro before it breaks.

[Danth]

You aren't just getting a +1 to hate every 6 seconds. You are also getting a passive 8.33% chance to taunt a mob automatically at the right time. The 8.33% is 50% divided by 6 seconds. .

I call it +1 and discount the other part of that only because I effectively never lose aggro anyway except when being exceptionally care-free. A player who plays a little differently than I do and doesn't go as hard on threat as I tend to may get more mileage out of it. Probably a case where we're not wrong, just different.

But, I also agree with you in that if you like using it--effectiveness be damned--you aren't hurting anyone and if it's more fun that way, go right on ahead. I'm not going to attack someone for doing it different than I do when results demonstrate we both will get the job done. The game allows for different ways of doing things, which I regard as a strength not a weakness.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I call it +1 and discount the other part of that only because I effectively never lose aggro anyway except when being exceptionally care-free. A player who plays a little differently than I do and doesn't go as hard on threat as I tend to may get more mileage out of it. Probably a case where we're not wrong, just different.

But, I also agree with you in that if you like using it--effectiveness be damned--you aren't hurting anyone and if it's more fun that way, go right on ahead. I'm not going to attack someone for doing it different than I do when results demonstrate we both will get the job done. The game allows for different ways of doing things, which I regard as a strength not a weakness.

I agree both strategies are viable. It's always nice to have variety in gameplay.

I don't think you should discount the 8.33% passive chance, however.

Think about it this way. People spend months raiding to get +50 HP in a slot, which probably equates to less than a 1% increased chance of survival. Instead of spending months raiding, you can just macro a skill you get for free onto another skill you are pressing anyway, and get a free 8.33% passive chance to jump to the top of the hate list.

I am not saying you are doing this, but I think people don't seem to understand that they are doing a lot of things in this game that only provide small bonuses. I find it strange that they are willing to argue over small bonus A (taunt spam, for example), while unanimously agreeing over small bonus B (something like +50 HP in a slot).

[Danth]

Hah, yeah, I tend to be unenthusiastic about +1 here, +2 there. EQ tends to be a "big numbers" game where you need quite a bit of something before you notice good effect. That's why I never upgraded a couple of my Thurgadin-quality armor items to Skyshrine--for the huge cost involved, it wasn't going to let me do anything I can't already do, anyway.

My bain does not compute the ~8% chance because I see it as a zero per cent chance--because I'm not really ever losing aggro to begin with, taunt or no taunt. It's a case where I'm interpreting the setup through the lens of how I play. Once in awhile when it doesn't matter I might go lazy-mode and let something flip onto the shaman once in awhile but only when nobody involved cares. I can accept that other folks may play a bit differently, and as long as they're still getting the job done--good enough.

[bcbrown]

You are also getting a passive 8.33% chance to taunt a mob automatically at the right time. The 8.33% is 50% divided by 6 seconds. That is certainly not pointless in my book.

How would you calculate the percentage chance of flipping aggro back for the other strategy, of not spamming taunt and only using it after aggro flips off you? I'm happy to accept your value of 50% innate success rate for the skill; it makes all the math much easier.

Your strategy is: spam taunt whenever it comes off cooldown; if you ever lose aggro, cast an aggro spell, right? The other strategy is: don't spam taunt; if you ever lose aggro, taunt and then cast an aggro spell, right? Given that you're in the scenario where aggro flips, you calculate an 8.3% chance to flip it back before an aggro spell lands. With the second strategy, in that same scenario, what's the chance to flip it back before an aggro spell lands?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How would you calculate the percentage chance of flipping aggro back for the other strategy, of not spamming taunt and only using it after aggro flips off you? I'm happy to accept your value of 50% innate success rate for the skill; it makes all the math much easier.

Your strategy is: spam taunt whenever it comes off cooldown; if you ever lose aggro, cast an aggro spell, right? The other strategy is: don't spam taunt; if you ever lose aggro, taunt and then cast an aggro spell, right? Given that you're in the scenario where aggro flips, you calculate an 8.3% chance to flip it back before an aggro spell lands. With the second strategy, in that same scenario, what's the chance to flip it back before an aggro spell lands?

It depends on the player who is tanking and the group member who acquired agro. Taunt has a melee range. If you press taunt a fraction of a second too late when the mob runs away, it will fizzle and you will get the "out of range" message. This puts taunt on cooldown too. That is a zero percent chance of success. If you don't use taunt due to laziness or fear of wasting it (which can hinder your reaction times), you also have a zero percent chance of success.

Realistically speaking spamming taunt has a higher percent chance of success than 8.33% simply due to removing reaction time from the equation. Conversely, waiting to use taunt has a lower percent chance of success due to factoring in reaction time. How much closer do the two percentages move to the middle of 8.33% and 50%? It is dependent on the player who is tanking, as each person has a different internet connection, keyboard, mouse, monitor, and reaction time.

This is why agro spells are much better. They don't have an instant fail mechanic if the mob runs out of melee range, they don't heavily rely on reaction time, and they have a much higher chance of applying agro.

Taunt has a 6 second cooldown and isn't reliable, so you cannot "waste it". Spam it or save it, both methods are viable. The cooldown is also fast enough to where you can switch your tactics as needed by the group at any moment. There is no realistic scenario in which a group will wipe because an SK (who has agro spells) didn't taunt due to 2 seconds remaining on their taunt cooldown, regardless of the reason why taunt is on cooldown.

You are guaranteed to get nothing from taunt if you never use it, so you might as well use it and get something!

[bcbrown]

If you press taunt a fraction of a second too late when the mob runs away, it will be wasted and you will get the "out of range" message.
What's a reasonable estimate for this time threshold (i.e. how long it takes the mob to run away out of taunt range)? A half second? A second? Assume a caster took aggro, not a melee DPS, so it's running away. Assume (for now) it's unsnared.

Each person has a different internet connection, keyboard, mouse, monitor, and reaction time.

What's a reasonable estimate for human reaction time (time to perceive plus time to click) and electronic latency (time from click to server registering action)?

I'd guess between a quarter second and a half second for human reaction time, plus about 50-150 ms for internet latency. Does that sound reasonable?

I just took a reaction-time test, and got between 0.28 and 0.32 seconds: https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/java/redgreen.html

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What's a reasonable estimate for this time threshold (i.e. how long it takes the mob to run away out of taunt range)? A half second? A second? Assume a caster took aggro, not a melee DPS, so it's running away. Assume (for now) it's unsnared.



What's a reasonable estimate for human reaction time (time to perceive plus time to click) and electronic latency (time from click to server registering action)?

I'd guess between a quarter second and a half second for human reaction time, plus about 50-150 ms for internet latency. Does that sound reasonable?

I just took a reaction-time test, and got between 0.28 and 0.32 seconds: https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/java/redgreen.html

Assuming you know the answer, what is your point you are trying to make? Let's go with your number for now and say 0.5 seconds.

[bcbrown]

Assuming you know the answer, what is your point you are trying to make? Let's go with your number for now and say 0.5 seconds.

I don't know the answer for the first question. I'm far less experienced at EQ than you are, and I've never played a tank.

I'm not trying to make a point. I'm trying to Do Science. Part of the process is to come up with unbiased estimates/measurements about the context of the system of whatever you are modelling.

I suppose my ulterior motive is that I want you to accept that my estimates are reasonable before doing the calculations, as I hope that will make it more likely that you're willing to accept the results, whatever they may be.

So far we've agreed upon a provisional value for reflex time of 0.5 second. How about the time before a fleeing mob is out of taunt range? Is a second a reasonable value for that? A tenth of a second? I really have no idea.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't know the answer for the first question. I'm far less experienced at EQ than you are, and I've never played a tank.

I'm not trying to make a point. I'm trying to Do Science. Part of the process is to come up with unbiased estimates/measurements about the context of the system of whatever you are modelling.

I suppose my ulterior motive is that I want you to accept that my estimates are reasonable before doing the calculations, as I hope that will make it more likely that you're willing to accept the results, whatever they may be.

So far we've agreed upon a provisional value for reflex time of 0.5 second. How about the time before a fleeing mob is out of taunt range? Is a second a reasonable value for that? A tenth of a second? I really have no idea.

To answer your question about fleeing mobs, it will vary based on the velocity of the mob and the distance the player is to the mob when it starts running. If you are within max melee range of the mob when it starts to run, you have less time to react than if you are standing on top of the mob. I don't have a data set available on hand, or the melee range + average mob velocity to do an accurate guess. This data is harder to get, as it's more dependent on the specific player and the specific mob in question. Some players habitually stay at max melee range, while others habitually get closer. Things like root also play a factor, since you will be trying to stand closer to a rooted mob, but this is dependent on your group composition.

I am not really sure what you are after here. If you read my posts, I haven't been saying that spamming taunt is statistically better than saving taunt for the right moment. Everybody in this thread (including myself) agrees that timing a taunt correctly has a higher chance of success.

I have been countering the point that spamming taunt does nothing, or has a negative effect. Mathematically this is 100% incorrect. You have at least an 8.33% chance of succeeding if you spam taunt. If you don't use taunt because you are afraid of "wasting it", you have a zero percent chance of success.

Since taunt has a 6 second cooldown, your opportunity cost of switching tactics in the middle of the fight is small. This is especially true since an experienced Knight will never rely on taunt. It is a nice to have, not a vital tool.

[bcbrown]

If you read my posts, I haven't been saying that spamming taunt is statistically better than saving taunt for the right moment. Everybody in this thread (including myself) agrees that timing a taunt correctly has a higher chance of success.

Often times it can be, yes. It frees up your brain to focus on other things. If you need to save taunt and use it strategically every 30 seconds because the rogue is constantly taking agro, you have bigger issues lol. Saving or spamming taunt is not the problem in this group.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your position has consistently been that the optimal default/standard strategy should be spamming taunt.

I am not really sure what you are after here. [...] I have been countering the point that spamming taunt does nothing, or has a negative effect. Mathematically this is 100% incorrect.

It is this last sentence that I believe to be wrong. Mathematically, however, to account for the objection you've raised about "time to flee", we need a value. How can you raise the objection "have a chance to waste it due to the mob running out of range" without the numbers necessary to calculate that chance?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your position has consistently been that the optimal default/standard strategy should be spamming taunt.


No. My position has been that spamming taunt is a viable strategy. That is all. I am countering the idea that spamming taunt has no value, negative value, or has a high opportunity cost. None of these things are true. I have data and math to back up my position.

You can check this entire thread and my post history. Nowhere did I say "spamming taunt is the optimal default/standard strategy". I am really not sure where you think you read that. I have been quite clear, and have repeated my points multiple times.

[bcbrown]

Often times it can be, yes.

I'm not trying to mischaracterize your position. Help me summarize it!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Often times it can be, yes.


That specific post is referring to the choice of not using taunt vs. spamming taunt. If you are the type of player who rarely/never uses taunt, then spamming taunt will be statistically better than doing nothing.

I have repeated myself in detail multiple times. I agree that post was more terse, and could have been worded better. But even if you were to take the worst interpretation as me saying "spamming taunt can be better sometimes", that still isn't "spamming taunt is the optimal default/standard strategy". I am really confused as to where you thought you saw me say this.

[bcbrown]

Given two strategies:

1) Spam taunt whenever it comes off cooldown; whenever you lose aggro cast an aggro spell.
2) Save taunt; whenever you lose aggro first taunt and then cast an aggro spell.

Which one do you think is the better, more-optimal strategy? Is there another strategy you think is more optimal than either of those?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Given two strategies:

1) Spam taunt whenever it comes off cooldown; whenever you lose aggro cast an aggro spell.
2) Save taunt; whenever you lose aggro first taunt and then cast an aggro spell.

Which one do you think is the better, more-optimal strategy? Is there another strategy you think is more optimal than either of those?

As I have stated multiple times, you can use both strategies. Spam taunt until your group needs strategic taunting.

Taunt has a 6 second cooldown and is unreliable. The opportunity cost of missing a single strategic taunt is extremely minimal, especially on a knight who has agro spells.

What is so difficult about this concept that I must repeat it ad nauseum?

[bcbrown]

I'm just trying to understand your position. I think I get it now. You don't believe the difference in effect between optimal and non-optimal strategies for taunt utilization has any substantial impact?

Again, not trying to mischaracterize your position. The above summary is the position I hold, for what it's worth.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm just trying to understand your position. I think I get it now. You don't believe the difference in effect between optimal and non-optimal strategies for taunt utilization has any substantial impact?

Again, not trying to mischaracterize your position. The above summary is the position I hold, for what it's worth.

Honestly I think what I said is pretty clear. Can you tell me what I said that is not clear?

As I have stated multiple times, you can use both strategies. Spam taunt until your group needs strategic taunting.

Taunt has a 6 second cooldown and is unreliable. The opportunity cost of missing a single strategic taunt is extremely minimal, especially on a knight who has agro spells.

[bcbrown]

Let's go back to this:


So in your mind, spamming it and hoping to get the timing right is better than deliberately timing it right?
Often times it can be, yes. It frees up your brain to focus on other things. If you need to save taunt and use it strategically every 30 seconds because the rogue is constantly taking agro, you have bigger issues lol. Saving or spamming taunt is not the problem in this group.


That specific post is referring to the choice of not using taunt vs. spamming taunt. If you are the type of player who rarely/never uses taunt, then spamming taunt will be statistically better than doing nothing.

You said it was "referring to the choice of not using taunt vs spamming taunt", but the question you answered specifically said "So in your mind, spamming it and hoping to get the timing right is better than deliberately timing it right?"

The question clearly isn't about "the choice of not using taunt". Did you misread that question when you first answered it?

[Gloomlord]

I mean, sure, you can spam taunt if you really think that miniscule amount of hate means something, and you think emergencies are unlikely.

If, however, there is an enchanter with a charm, and it's liable to break, it is utterly invaluable for the tank to at least try to taunt it first before committing to aggro spells. That is one such example of why you should keep taunt up whenever you can.

Isn't this obvious? There are also plenty more scenarios where it would come in handy, so keeping it off cooldown, in a dungeon where you're tanking for a group, is the wiser course of action.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let's go back to this:

You said it was "referring to the choice of not using taunt vs spamming taunt", but the question you answered specifically said "So in your mind, spamming it and hoping to get the timing right is better than deliberately timing it right?"

The question clearly isn't about "the choice of not using taunt". Did you misread that question when you first answered it?

I am not sure why you are getting so hung up on that single post. What is the relevance when I have explained my position in so many different posts now? I already admitted that specific post wasn't worded well. You are basically looking at a single post and ignoring all my other posts. It's very suspicious to be honest.

What is unclear about what I said here?

As I have stated multiple times, you can use both strategies. Spam taunt until your group needs strategic taunting.

Taunt has a 6 second cooldown and is unreliable. The opportunity cost of missing a single strategic taunt is extremely minimal, especially on a knight who has agro spells.


I mean, sure, you can spam taunt if you really think that miniscule amount of hate means something, and you think emergencies are unlikely.

If, however, there is an enchanter with a charm, and it's liable to break, it is utterly invaluable for the tank to at least try to taunt it first before committing to aggro spells. That is one such example of why you should keep taunt up whenever you can.

Isn't this obvious? There are also plenty more scenarios where it would come in handy, so keeping it off cooldown, in a dungeon where you're tanking for a group, is the wiser course of action.

The issue is you are putting too much importance on taunt. Taunt isn't reliable enough for you to assume it will work in said emergency situation. A good Knight is going to be watching for charm breaks, and is ready to cast their non-dot agro spells like shroud of hate/shadow vortex. A charm break isn't a very good example anyway, because the pet is going to beeline for the Enchanter on a break. You probably aren't going to be in melee range for taunt to begin with if the Enchanter pet is positioned behind the mob, since you are tanking the mob from the front.

[bcbrown]

I am not sure why you are getting so hung up on that single post. What is the relevance when I have explained my position in so many different posts now? I already admitted that specific post wasn't worded well. You are basically looking at a single post and ignoring all my other posts. It's very suspicious to be honest.

When I brought up that answer, you responded by mis-characterizing the question in a textbook example of gaslighting. You asserted that you were anwering a question completely different than the question you were actually asked. Yeah, I'm a little hung up by someone attempting to gaslight me.

Also, you frequently mention your willingness to admit error. I believe you were in error here, in your mischaracterization of the original question. If you can admit this error we can easily move on, it doesn't have to be a big deal.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

When I brought up that answer, you responded by mis-characterizing the question in a textbook example of gaslighting. You asserted that you were anwering a question completely different than the question you were actually asked. Yeah, I'm a little hung up by someone attempting to gaslight me.

Also, you frequently mention your willingness to admit error. I believe you were in error here, in your mischaracterization of the original question. If you can admit this error we can easily move on, it doesn't have to be a big deal.

I did admit that I worded that post incorrectly. Twice. It isn't my fault you think the truth is "gaslighting" you lol. You are ignoring all of my other posts, including the posts on pages 2 and 3 which state the same points I have been making throughout this entire thread. My intent was to say that spamming taunt is better than not using it, because if you are too stingy about saving taunt, you end up not using it at all.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3661899&postcount=14 - here is an example of me saying the same things I've been saying, on page 2 before the post in question (which is on page 4). I made a mistake with the wording of the post you are referring to. It's really that simple, and the post history confirms it.

You still haven't answered my question. What was unclear here?

As I have stated multiple times, you can use both strategies. Spam taunt until your group needs strategic taunting.

Taunt has a 6 second cooldown and is unreliable. The opportunity cost of missing a single strategic taunt is extremely minimal, especially on a knight who has agro spells.

[bcbrown]

I did admit that I worded that post incorrectly.

I appreciate the acknowledgement of error, while noting that my complaint is not the wording of the post, but the wording of the response when I brought it up; the mischaracterization of the question it purported to answer.

You still haven't answered my question. What was unclear here?

You can use both strategies.
This can be read either normatively or proscriptively. In a normative interpretation, it's saying that you can use either strategy; "both are possible". In a proscriptive interpretation, it's saying that you should use both strategies, "both should be used". This is unclear.

Spam taunt until your group needs strategic taunting.

This entails multiple implications. "needs" implies that "strategic taunting" is situationally necessary; that it is sometimes the optimal strategy. "until" can be read as an imperative, a command or prescription to use "spam taunt" "until" some condition is satisfied. It can also be read tautologically: use A unless you need to use B, but the structural lack of an inverse, "use B unless you need to use A", implies an asymmetry that privileges A. In other words, if you state "use A unless you need B" but don't state "use B unless you need to use A", that entails an implicit endorsement of A. This creates a conflict between the facial interpretation and the structural interpretation, which makes it unclear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I appreciate the acknowledgement of error, while noting that my complaint is not the wording of the post, but the wording of the response when I brought it up; the mischaracterization of the question it purported to answer.


I told you the truth about the intent of the post in question. All of my other posts do not make the claim you think I was making, so that should be evidence enough to show the post was simply worded poorly, which I acknowledge. There no gaslighting going on, simply human error on my part.


You can use both strategies.
This can be read either normatively or proscriptively. In a normative interpretation, it's saying that you can use either strategy; "both are possible". In a proscriptive interpretation, it's saying that you should use both strategies, "both should be used". This is unclear.

Spam taunt until your group needs strategic taunting.

This entails multiple implications. "needs" implies that "strategic taunting" is situationally necessary; that it is sometimes the optimal strategy. "until" can be read as an imperative, a command or prescription to use "spam taunt" "until" some condition is satisfied. It can also be read tautologically: use A unless you need to use B, but the structural lack of an inverse, "use B unless you need to use A", implies an asymmetry that privileges A. In other words, if you state "use A unless you need B" but don't state "use B unless you need to use A", that entails an implicit endorsement of A. This creates a conflict between the facial interpretation and the structural interpretation, which makes it unclear.

You are overthinking this way too much.

You can spam taunt until you need to use taunt strategically. It is not more complicated than that. Taunt has a 6 second cooldown, which means the opportunity cost for switching from taunt spam to strategic taunting is 6 seconds at worst. Taunt is unreliable to begin with, which means you aren't assuming your strategic taunt will work anyway. You are already planning around a taunt failure.

[bcbrown]

You are overthinking this way too much.

I'm just goofin' around on a Monday night. Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm just goofin' around on a Monday night. Ask a silly question, get a silly answer.

It's pretty obvious you have been trolling just about the whole time. It's too bad your trolling isn't very good. It's painfully obvious to see where you are trying to steer the conversation into silly gotchas.

[Guesty07]

DMS is the biggest troll on this fourm don't let him turn it around on anybody else. He just had his ass handed to him by bcbrown. I guarantee that I can taunt mobs before they run out of agro range.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DMS is the biggest troll on this fourm don't let him turn it around on anybody else. He just had his ass handed to him by bcbrown. I guarantee that I can taunt mobs before they run out of agro range.

You are clearly a troll. You aren't hiding it at all. You haven't even tried to make an argument in this thread, you just post nonsense. Please stop trolling.

[Guesty07]

Don't like what you say so you're a troll wahhhhhhhh. Big baby. YOU are the troll, nobody else in this thread. Learn to play everquest better.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't like what you say so you're a troll wahhhhhhhh. Big baby. YOU are the troll, nobody else in this thread. Learn to play everquest better.

Thank you for continuing to prove you are just a troll via rage post. This always helps people recognize who the trolls are. I wish you would contribute instead of troll, but one day I believe you can improve yourself.

[Guesty07]

Wahhhh everybody is a troll except me wahhhhhh

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wahhhh everybody is a troll except me wahhhhhh

I hope you understand that the more posts you make like this, the easier it is for people to look at your post history and see how obvious of a troll you are. This isn't hurting me. It's hurting yourself, and the people on this forum who just want to discuss the game mechanics. Why are you bloating threads with nonsense for no reason? Trolling isn't going to convince people you are correct.

[bcbrown]

You can spam taunt until you need to use taunt strategically. It is not more complicated than that.

Why not just use taunt strategically to begin with? "Until you need" implies at least one instance happens where using taunt strategically would be superior to spamming taunt. If you start by using taunt strategically, that instance wouldn't happen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why not just use taunt strategically to begin with? "Until you need" implies at least one instance happens where using taunt strategically would be superior to spamming taunt. If you start by using taunt strategically, that instance wouldn't happen.

You've already admitted you are trolling. Please stop. I've answered this question multiple times. You can read the thread to find the answers to this question.

[Snaggles]

It's pretty obvious you have been trolling just about the whole time. It's too bad your trolling isn't very good. It's painfully obvious to see where you are trying to steer the conversation into silly gotchas.

Maybe not a good "troll" but pretty good at "strategic taunting". He kept your attention for about 6 hours and two pages of blathering insecurity..

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Maybe not a good "troll" but pretty good at "strategic taunting". He kept your attention for about 6 hours and two pages of blathering insecurity..

Rage posting is really not a good look. Why bother making a fool of yourself?

[Guesty07]

You are the troll. Nobody else. Everybody reading these fourms knows it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are the troll. Nobody else. Everybody reading these fourms knows it.

I am sorry, but repeating nonsense does not make it true. All you are doing is cluttering your post history with literal trolling. It isn't hurting me or helping you.

[Snaggles]

Rage posting is really not a good look. Why bother making a fool of yourself?

There is no rage here, lol. Just a lot of irony.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is no rage here, lol. Just a lot of irony.

Again, you aren't making me look bad, or you look good. You are bloating threads with nonsense because you couldn't provide evidence for your opinions. You could try to bring more than nonsense into the discussion if you think I am wrong.

[cotterpin]

https://media0.giphy.com/media/gl0mkIZOW6Nwc/giphy.gif

[Guesty07]

Everything you say is a projection of your own self on these fourms. You talk nonsense you troll you you clutter up your post history you make yourself look bad

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Everything you say is a projection of your own self on these fourms. You talk nonsense you troll you you clutter up your post history you make yourself look bad

Remember this?

Wahhhh everybody is a troll except me wahhhhhh

You're the one posting nonsense and trolling. You aren't foolng anybody.

[Guesty07]

Neither are you that's the whole point

[Gloomlord]

Everything you say is a projection of your own self on these fourms. You talk nonsense you troll you you clutter up your post history you make yourself look bad

Too bad he'll never recognise this. Wouldn't want him to sink deeper into self-hatred...

[Crede]

Yes, if you need to rely on taunt you have failed. That is what I have been saying the entire time.

You can put taunt, disarm, beg, and slam/bash on the same macro for regular fights when you aren't trying to interrupt spells or deal with mezed mobs. It saves you APM and gives you a chance to taunt at the right time. Just spam it and generate all the hate you can, while giving yourself a chance to taunt at the right time. Just use a different macro page if you need to separate slam/bash and make a macro for just taunt/beg/disarm if you want to frontload agro into a mezed mob. Or always keep them separate if it doesn't bother you to press 2 buttons instead of 1.

Saying that spamming taunt is somehow going to put you in a situation where not having it for 2 seconds is a going to be a major problem is really silly lol. I have never been in a situation where having taunt on cooldown was a problem. This is because taunt isn't a skill you rely on in the first place.

Classic Dsm gaslighting, trying to make me believe I said something that I didn’t. Nothing wrong with having some kind of reliance on taunt, it’s a tool in your kit so by definition you innately have a reason to use it. Pet breaks especially it does come in handy, since an enchanter does not want their pet dc’d(dc sucks anyway) or atk debuffed, leaving basically one shroud to pull aggro.

There’s no such thing as both spamming and using it as needed, just wild theorycraft. If you’re spamming, you already gave up the ability to use it as needed, because you have no idea when you’ll actually need it.

Once you realize it’s not about changing his opinion, but more about defending the truth, it becomes easier to deal with nonsense.

[Guesty07]

Classic Dsm gaslighting, trying to make me believe I said something that I didn’t. Nothing wrong with having some kind of reliance on taunt, it’s a tool in your kit so by definition you innately have a reason to use it. Pet breaks especially it does come in handy, since an enchanter does not want their pet dc’d(dc sucks anyway) or atk debuffed, leaving basically one shroud to pull aggro.

There’s no such thing as both spamming and using it as needed, just wild theorycraft. If you’re spamming, you already gave up the ability to use it as needed, because you have no idea when you’ll actually need it.

Once you realize it’s not about changing his opinion, but more about defending the truth, it becomes easier to deal with nonsense.


Well said, its really not rocket science is it lol. But he's wrong, he knows he's wrong but he can't go back now. So he keeps peddling the nonsense and giving armature tanking advice. Leave it to the pros

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Classic Dsm gaslighting, trying to make me believe I said something that I didn’t. Nothing wrong with having some kind of reliance on taunt, it’s a tool in your kit so by definition you innately have a reason to use it. Pet breaks especially it does come in handy, since an enchanter does not want their pet dc’d(dc sucks anyway) or atk debuffed, leaving basically one shroud to pull aggro.

There’s no such thing as both spamming and using it as needed, just wild theorycraft. If you’re spamming, you already gave up the ability to use it as needed, because you have no idea when you’ll actually need it.

Once you realize it’s not about changing his opinion, but more about defending the truth, it becomes easier to deal with nonsense.

Theres no gaslighting going on lol. Please stop making stuff up, it doesn't help your position. It just makes you look bad. Attacking people because you can't win with facts and logic is not a valid method of argument.

Yes, you can spam taunt and then switch to strategic usage, it has a 6 second cooldown. It will pop back up by the time you have finished your first agro spell, which you would be casting anyway. Do you not use taunt after the first one failed? Your logic that you can't do both is mind boggling unless you only use taunt the first time you lose agro, and then never touch it again even after a failure. If a strategic taunt fails the first time, you can use it again 6 seconds later. No different than if you spam and then switch to strategic usage.

DC isn't used anymore, so I am not sure why you are bringing it up. You would use shroud of hate or shadow vortex on the pet. The ATK debuff isn't detrimental enough to matter on mobs you would be charming. That's why Shamans/Enchanters aren't casting cripple on blue con mobs. You aren't relying on taunt in that situation, and since the pet should be behind the mob, you are probably out of melee range for taunt to begin with since you are in front tanking.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll put this in the simplest terms possible, as it seems like people don't seem to grasp the concept of a 6 second timer. Or they are trolling. It's hard to tell which at this point. You can test this out in game easily, it isn't difficult to do yourself. This isn't theorycrafting.

Scenario A - Spam Taunt:

1. Press Taunt
2. Taunt fails for whatever reason (bad timing, mob distance, lose the random number game)
3. Switch your style to strategic taunting
4. Wait 6 seconds
5. Press Taunt again
6. Taunt succeeds
7. Continue taunting as necessary (mob flips again, multiple mobs are in camp, etc.)

Scenario B - Strategic Taunt:

1. Press Taunt
2. Taunt fails for whatever reason (bad timing, mob distance, lose the random number game)
3. Switch your style to strategic taunting
4. Wait 6 seconds
5. Press Taunt again
6. Taunt succeeds
7. Continue taunting as necessary (mob flips again, multiple mobs are in camp, etc.)

The only difference between the two scenarios is spamming taunt has a lower chance of success on the first taunt. After that you can switch to strategic taunting for all subsequent taunts until the situation is under control. Nobody is disagreeing with the fact that spamming taunt has a lower chance of success on the first taunt, including myself. Nor have I ever argued otherwise.

The benefit of spamming taunt is it allows you to save APM and/or brain power to focus on other things, while still retaining some benefit. You get +1 hate every 6 seconds, and an 8.33% chance of taunting at the right time. There are multiple posters in this thread who have claimed that they do not use taunt at all. Spamming taunt is certainly better than never using it if you were to pick between the two. A tank who spams taunt is factually generating more agro than a tank who never uses taunt. Putting taunt on an existing macro you are already spamming (bash/slam perhaps) is effortless, and gives you extra agro for free. Due to the cooldown timer of taunt being 6 seconds, you can always switch strategies as necessary. If you as the tank are losing agro every 30 seconds, then you can stop spamming taunt and use it strategically until you can figure out why you are losing agro so often.

[Duik]

Ok. We get it. Say stuff once and leave it there. I have seen the same fucking sentences over and over. Sometimes worded slightly differently but still.
As it is, id prefer trolls than spammers. Some trolls are at the least entertaining.
But please, continue repeating ones self and calling out trolls. Repeatedly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok. We get it. Say stuff once and leave it there. I have seen the same fucking sentences over and over. Sometimes worded slightly differently but still.
As it is, id prefer trolls than spammers. Some trolls are at the least entertaining.
But please, continue repeating ones self and calling out trolls. Repeatedly.

Tell the trolls to stop repeating themselves, spamming, and trolling. The problem will be solved. You are asking the wrong person.

[Crede]

I'll put this in the simplest terms possible, as it seems like people don't seem to grasp the concept of a 6 second timer. Or they are trolling. It's hard to tell which at this point. You can test this out in game easily, it isn't difficult to do yourself. This isn't theorycrafting.

Scenario A - Spam Taunt:

1. Press Taunt
2. Taunt fails for whatever reason (bad timing, mob distance, lose the random number game)
3. Switch your style to strategic taunting
4. Wait 6 seconds
5. Press Taunt again
6. Taunt succeeds
7. Continue taunting as necessary (mob flips again, multiple mobs are in camp, etc.)

Scenario B - Strategic Taunt:

1. Press Taunt
2. Taunt fails for whatever reason (bad timing, mob distance, lose the random number game)
3. Switch your style to strategic taunting
4. Wait 6 seconds
5. Press Taunt again
6. Taunt succeeds
7. Continue taunting as necessary (mob flips again, multiple mobs are in camp, etc.)

The only difference between the two scenarios is spamming taunt has a lower chance of success on the first taunt. After that you can switch to strategic taunting for all subsequent taunts until the situation is under control. Nobody is disagreeing with the fact that spamming taunt has a lower chance of success on the first taunt, including myself. Nor have I ever argued otherwise.

The benefit of spamming taunt is it allows you to save APM and/or brain power to focus on other things, while still retaining some benefit. You get +1 hate every 6 seconds, and an 8.33% chance of taunting at the right time. There are multiple posters in this thread who have claimed that they do not use taunt at all. Spamming taunt is certainly better than never using it if you were to pick between the two. A tank who spams taunt is factually generating more agro than a tank who never uses taunt. Putting taunt on an existing macro you are already spamming (bash/slam perhaps) is effortless, and gives you extra agro for free. Due to the cooldown timer of taunt being 6 seconds, you can always switch strategies as necessary. If you as the tank are losing agro every 30 seconds, then you can stop spamming taunt and use it strategically until you can figure out why you are losing agro so often.

Spamming taunt will more than likely increase APM, it doesn't save it. Next.
+1 hate every 6 seconds is mathematically rounded down to 0 threat. Next.
The majority of knights will not have slam nor will they have an epic equipped for bash if they are using a 2h weapon(which they should for superior dps). Next.
Knights do not get kick. Next.
Using taunt only at the exact moment it is needed is all knights need to do. /thread by greatdane on page 2

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Spamming taunt will more than likely increase APM, it doesn't save it. Next.


1. Adding a new line to a macro does not increase APM.


+1 hate every 6 seconds is mathematically rounded down to 0 threat. Next.


2. It's +1 hate and an 8.33% chance to taunt at the correct time without needing to think about it. You cannot simply ignore this fact and pretend it will go away.


The majority of knights will not have slam nor will they have an epic equipped for bash if they are using a 2h weapon(which they should for superior dps). Next.
Knights do not get kick. Next.


3. If you are unable to press a single macro with Taunt/Disarm/Beg on it, you probably aren't going to be pressing taunt at all anyway.


Using taunt only at the exact moment it is needed is all knights need to do. /thread by greatdane on page 2


4. I already debunked the claim that "strategic taunting is the only viable method for using taunt" here https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140 . Taunt spamming is viable too.

You have been proven wrong. Please act like an adult and stop shying away from this fact. It's ok to admit you are wrong sometimes.

[Ripqozko]

Every DSM thread, always same, i feel bad for kittens

[Penish]

Another 20 pages of DSM being a retard, congrats

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Another 20 pages of DSM being a retard, congrats

Every DSM thread, always same, i feel bad for kittens

Continuing to raise your trolling post counts does not hurt me or help you. I hope that you will stop this nonsense one day, but at least it is quite obvious to see who the trolls are here.

[Guesty07]

Literally everything he says to other people, every other person reading it thinking that same thing but about him. Glad we're all in agreement - use taunt when you need to, not before. End thread

[Crede]

1. Adding a new line to a macro does not increase APM.



2. It's +1 hate and an 8.33% chance to taunt at the correct time without needing to think about it. You cannot simply ignore this fact and pretend it will go away.



3. If you are unable to press a single macro with Taunt/Disarm/Beg on it, you probably aren't going to be pressing taunt at all anyway.



4. I already debunked the claim that "strategic taunting is the only viable method for using taunt" in my previous post. Taunt spamming is viable too.

You have been proven wrong. Please act like an adult and stop shying away from this fact. It's ok to admit you are wrong sometimes.

You have proven nothing, we already knew the correct answer before you got involved.

Knights, do not bother clicking taunt unless you wish to raise your skill in it, or reacquire lost aggro. Ignore the myths/lies/theories.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Literally everything he says to other people, every other person reading it thinking that same thing but about him. Glad we're all in agreement - use taunt when you need to, not before. End thread

You have proven nothing, we already knew the correct answer before you got involved.

Knights, do not bother clicking taunt unless you wish to raise your skill in it, or reacquire lost aggro. Ignore the myths/lies/theories.

Trolling and simply saying "I am right" without providing any logic, evidence, or reason, is pointless. You are just hurting yourself by posting this kind of nonsense.

For people interested in the truth instead of nonsense and trolling, please see this post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140

Strategic taunting and spamming taunt are both viable strategies, and this has yet to be disproven.

[Guesty07]

Speak the truth Crede. Let bad players continue to be bad. We tried

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Speak the truth Crede. Let bad players continue to be bad. We tried

You didn't try anything other than trolling. The post history is quite clear. Same with Crede unfortunately. You aren't going to convince anybody simply because you act like a child and try to force your opinion on other people.


For people interested in the truth instead of nonsense and trolling, please see this post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140

Strategic taunting and spamming taunt are both viable strategies, and this has yet to be disproven.

[Guesty07]

Mans so immersed in this Project he's spamming taunt like he's gone back in time to 1999 and you've just made your first character, a wood Elf warrior named Drizzit, fingers itching to give orc pawns the 1 2 combo of kick + taunt. Immersion to a whole new level

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Mans so immersed in this Project he's spamming taunt like he's gone back in time to 1999 and you've just made your first character, a wood Elf warrior named Drizzit, fingers itching to give orc pawns the 1 2 combo of kick + taunt. Immersion to a whole new level

I am not sure why you are so angry at the simple fact that spamming taunt can be used as a viable strategy for Knights. Is there a problem with people having more choice in a video game?

[Guesty07]

It's OK, I used to be a bad player too, in 1999.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's OK, I used to be a bad player too, in 1999.

Me being a good or bad player is irrelevant in relation to facts about the game. Why are you so angry that spamming taunt is factually a viable strategy?

[bcbrown]

Thanks a ton for putting this into a single clear post. Please forgive me, but I've spent a fair amount of time carefully scrutinizing your definitions for Scenario A and Scenario B, and I must admit I fail to see the difference between them:
Scenario A - Spam Taunt:

1. Press Taunt
2. Taunt fails for whatever reason (bad timing, mob distance, lose the random number game)
3. Switch your style to strategic taunting
4. Wait 6 seconds
5. Press Taunt again
6. Taunt succeeds
7. Continue taunting as necessary (mob flips again, multiple mobs are in camp, etc.)

Scenario B - Strategic Taunt:

1. Press Taunt
2. Taunt fails for whatever reason (bad timing, mob distance, lose the random number game)
3. Switch your style to strategic taunting
4. Wait 6 seconds
5. Press Taunt again
6. Taunt succeeds
7. Continue taunting as necessary (mob flips again, multiple mobs are in camp, etc.)


Is there something I'm missing?

Assuming there's a simple mistake there, I think I can completely agree with the spirit of your definitions for Scenario A and Scenario B, although I'll call them spam-taunt and strategy-taunt, as that helps keep me from getting confused by which one is which.


The only difference between the two scenarios is spamming taunt has a lower chance of success on the first taunt. After that you can switch to strategic taunting for all subsequent taunts until the situation is under control. Nobody is disagreeing with the fact that spamming taunt has a lower chance of success on the first taunt, including myself. Nor have I ever argued otherwise.


Great, we're in agreement! Strategy-taunt has a higher chance of success on the first taunt.

"The benefit of spamming taunt is it allows you to save APM and/or brain power to focus on other things, while still retaining some benefit."

This is incorrect. Spam-taunt will be up to 10 APM HIGHER than strategy-taunt; after all, you might clicking taunt every six seconds will be ten clicks per minute. If you replace hitting Bash whenever it's available with hitting a macro of Bash/Taunt, then perhaps there might be zero APM difference, but the strategy-taunt approach will never have higher APM than the spam-taunt approach. Advantage on APM: (minimally) strategy-taunt

"and/or brain power"

The only component of strategy-taunt that requires brain power is when you lose aggro, at which point you need to hit taunt and cast an aggro spell, perhaps combined in a macro. In that scenario, spam-taunt has to cast an aggro spell. Same actions required, same perception required. The only difference is that aggro flips will happen some tiny percentage less often under spam-taunt, because of the extra +10 aggro/minute. Advantage on brain power: (minimally) spam-taunt, contingent on proving there's a measureable difference in frequency of aggro flips.

"There are multiple posters in this thread who have claimed that they do not use taunt at all."

The only person who has claimed they do not use taunt is Snaggles:
"My paladin doesn’t have disarm or taunt on the bar." (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3661981&postcount=17)
"It never flips. If it did I guess I would put taunt back on my skill bar." (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3662994&postcount=24)
"I might just put taunt back on the bar. Save some mana and kick my feet up when it’s a low risk situation. Like after slow lands and it’s settled." (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663031&postcount=28)

If you want to assert that multiple posters don't use taunt, you need to prove it. I can provide a quote for everyone in this thread (who has expressed an opinion on this) supporting the strategy-taunt approach except Snaggles, who also noted that if he ever did experience aggro flipping, he would start using Taunt.

So the tradeoff between the two strategies looks like this:
In favor of strategy-taunt: minimally less APM. Significantly more likely to succeed on the first taunt.
In favor of spam taunt: +10 aggro/minute will lead to some minimal reduction in frequency of aggro flips.

We can codify this in math. You're advocating for spam-taunt as being optimal (lower frequency of unsuccessful first taunts):
spam-taunt < strategic-taunt
an unsuccessful taunt is the chance of an aggro-flip times failure_rate:
spam_flip_freq * spam_failure_rate < strategic_flip_freq * strategic_failure_rate

We can now isolate the strategic_flip_freq:
spam_flip_freq * spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate < strategic_flip_freq

We know the strategic flip frequency will be higher than the spam flip frequency, because of the extra 10 hate/minute. Lets call that difference sigma:
spam_flip_freq * spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate < spam_flip_freq + sigma

And isolate sigma:
spam_flip_freq * spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate - spam_flip_freq < sigma

Simplify:

spam_flip_freq * (spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate - 1) < sigma

And since we don't know spam_flip_freq either:

spam_failure_rate / strategic_failure_rate - 1 < sigma / spam_flip_freq

We now have provisional values for the left hand side. 1-0.083 is 0.917, 1 - 0.50 is 0.50, and that ratio is 1.83. Subtract 1, and:

0.83 < sigma / spam_flip_freq

In other words, with the provisional success rates of 8.3% and 50%, respectively, for spam-taunt and strategic-taunt strategies on first taunt, the impact of the change in frequency rates has to be 83% of the innate frequency of an aggro flip ever happening.

In summary, if the frequency of at least one aggro flip in normal gameplay for a given mob while using the spam-taunt approach is X, the frequency using strategic-taunt approach would have to be 1.83X for the spam-taunt approach to be more-optimal in avoiding aggro-flips.

If you can prove that, you will convince me.

[Penish]

haha these are some legendary threads lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

... Nothing but nonsense.


You've already admitted to being a troll in this thread. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663499&postcount=116 . All you are doing is trying to waste people's time. Please stop. You are just spamming the thread.

If someone wants to actually address the points I made here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140

I will be happy to do so.

[bcbrown]

I'm trying to constructively engage with you! I'm doing the math, just like you've asked for!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm trying to constructively engage with you! I'm doing the math, just like you've asked for!

No, you are clearly not. Nor did I ask you to do the math. You are also purposely distorting my position after I have corrected you multiple times.

You keep asking which strategy is statistically more likely to taunt, which isn't my argument, and you can check the post history. I already gave you the numbers based on the data I have.

I am simply disproving the idea that spamming taunt provides no benefit, which I have clearly done here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140

Spamming taunt is indeed a viable strategy.

Please stop trolling and wasting people's time by pretending to engage with people. You haven't done or said anything to prove the baseless claim that spamming taunt provides no benefit.

[bcbrown]

Oh geez, DSM, I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings or make you think I was trolling yesterday. I got a little frustrated towards the end of the evening, and I was intemperate. I apologize.

I like you! We've played together in-game, and I sincerely admire your willingness to play in-game with people who yell at you on the forums. I've always strived to engage constructively with the argument at hand, and if sometimes I fall short of that standard, well, all I can do is humbly ask forgiveness.

Anyway, if your entire argument is disproving "spamming taunt provides no benefit," then we are in 100% agreement. It provides some benefit. Absolutely. I support your position wholly. It provides 10 hate/minute. There's no significant drawbacks. It is a viable strategy.

The rest of this post is not directed at DSM. This is to set out my position, which is on a completely separate topic. I'm not concerned so much with whether a given approach provides benefits or not, I'm concerned with what is optimal. Here, I define optimal as "the approach that results in the lowest frequency of occurrences where aggro flips and the first taunt does not succeed". I believe that on this metric, although both approaches are viable, the strategy-taunt approach is optimal.

[Crede]

Oh geez, DSM, I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings or make you think I was trolling yesterday. I got a little frustrated towards the end of the evening, and I was intemperate. I apologize.

I like you! We've played together in-game, and I sincerely admire your willingness to play in-game with people who yell at you on the forums. I've always strived to engage constructively with the argument at hand, and if sometimes I fall short of that standard, well, all I can do is humbly ask forgiveness.

Anyway, if your entire argument is disproving "spamming taunt provides no benefit," then we are in 100% agreement. It provides some benefit. Absolutely. I support your position wholly. It provides 10 hate/minute. There's no significant drawbacks. It is a viable strategy.

The rest of this post is not directed at DSM. This is to set out my position, which is on a completely separate topic. I'm not concerned so much with whether a given approach provides benefits or not, I'm concerned with what is optimal. Here, I define optimal as "the approach that results in the lowest frequency of occurrences where aggro flips and the first taunt does not succeed". I believe that on this metric, although both approaches are viable, the strategy-taunt approach is optimal.

He knows which is optimal, he just slowly shifted his goalposts to imply that the taunt spamming was a viable alternative, where initially he was more about suggesting to not even bother strategically taunting.

Nice work besting him btw, that was some legit math/logic. I knew he would just call you a troll after that response lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh geez, DSM, I'm so sorry. I really didn't mean to hurt your feelings or make you think I was trolling yesterday. I got a little frustrated towards the end of the evening, and I was intemperate. I apologize.

I like you! We've played together in-game, and I sincerely admire your willingness to play in-game with people who yell at you on the forums. I've always strived to engage constructively with the argument at hand, and if sometimes I fall short of that standard, well, all I can do is humbly ask forgiveness.

Anyway, if your entire argument is disproving "spamming taunt provides no benefit," then we are in 100% agreement. It provides some benefit. Absolutely. I support your position wholly. It provides 10 hate/minute. There's no significant drawbacks. It is a viable strategy.

The rest of this post is not directed at DSM. This is to set out my position, which is on a completely separate topic. I'm not concerned so much with whether a given approach provides benefits or not, I'm concerned with what is optimal. Here, I define optimal as "the approach that results in the lowest frequency of occurrences where aggro flips and the first taunt does not succeed". I believe that on this metric, although both approaches are viable, the strategy-taunt approach is optimal.

You didn't hurt my feelings, don't worry. As I have said before, I hold no grudges with anybody on these forums. I enjoyed playing with you too! I don't bring forum drama into the game, it is pointless.

Spamming taunt also provides the 8.33% bonus to taunt successfully, so it provides more value than just 10 hate/minute. I am not sure why people keep omitting that.

I agree with you that targeted taunting is more optimal for the first taunt specifically. After the first taunt (regardless of which method you are using) you have 6 seconds to change your taunting strategy however you need to, so the opportunity cost is minimal. You lose 1 taunt at worst, which should never be the doom of a group with a Knight who knows how to use snap agro.

He knows which is optimal, he just slowly shifted his goalposts to imply that the taunt spamming was a viable alternative, where initially he was more about suggesting to not even bother strategically taunting.


I never shifted the goalposts https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3661899&postcount=14 you can see my position on page 2. It is the same as my position now. You are just salty that you cannot counter my points here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140 I am not sure why you think you can fool people when the post history is there for everybody to see.


Nice work besting him btw, that was some legit math/logic. I knew he would just call you a troll after that response lol.


He didn't best me at all. His long post was completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. That is why it looks like a troll post. It is very nonsensical. Not trying to be mean here, but it's true.

[Duik]

Bananas are a good source of potasium and good at measuring stuff. Its just math.
Now, imma wait to press that same button until the mob flips so im not accused of spamming it. Every six seconds.

[Snaggles]

I remember when DSM’s SK wasn’t even 60. Like 6 months ago? Now he’s giving tanking TED talks about level 1 skills you literally can just read about on the Wiki.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Taunt

My favourite part is now we have two categories of taunt usage like it’s the Metric and Imperial system. Also, people can switch between them as needed (validating the stupid one invented like 15 pages ago) like an ambidextrous athlete.

I’ll still likely put taunt on my bar. To a single hotkey with a /doability # and /cast 1 entry. I’m going to call this Macro Taunt. Please enter it as the third and most superior method. It’s the Venn Diagram between lazy and effective.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I remember when DSM’s SK wasn’t even 60. Like 6 months ago? Now he’s giving tanking TED talks about level 1 skills you literally can just read about on the Wiki.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Taunt

My favourite part is now we have two categories of taunt usage like it’s the Metric and Imperial system. Also, people can switch between them as needed (validating the stupid one invented like 15 pages ago) like an ambidextrous athlete.

I’ll still likely put taunt on my bar. To a single hotkey with a /doability # and /cast 1 entry. I’m going to call this Macro Taunt. Please enter it as the third and most superior method. It’s the Venn Diagram between lazy and effective.

You don't need all of your characters to be at level 60 to know how the game plays, or how a class works. Argument from authority is a fallacy. Getting to 60 on an SK isn't game changing like getting Torpor on a Shaman. My SK doesn't play significantly different at level 60. He was my first character on this server, I've played him for years. You also get taunt very early in the game, so you don't need to be level 60 to understand how taunt works.

I agree with you that basic concepts like taunt spamming shouldn't need to be explained with this level of detail. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140 this should be extremely obvious to anybody who has used taunt in a group before. Typically you are not using taunt only once if you lose agro. You only have a 50% chance of success at best. You lose one taunt in the worst case by spamming taunt.

It is very strange that people are getting angry that you can use taunt in two ways instead of one. It's baffling to me that this is a problem for people.

Spamming taunt would be beneficial in your case, since you don't even use taunt. You are getting nothing from the skill right now.

For your idea about combining taunt and your agro spell into one macro, just remember to not use that macro if you are already out of melee range. Otherwise you will just put taunt on cooldown when you start casting your agro spell. That only works when you are in melee range already.

I also didn't invent taunt spamming. I am pretty sure every tank in this thread spammed taunt to level it up lol. So congrats on being a fellow user of taunt spamming.

[Snaggles]

This is just classic MacroTaunt hate. Have fun having less aggro for more work and spending more mana on slower peels.

Your enchanters last words will be, “Blerg…why didn’t he just MacroTaunt and save me?”

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is just classic MacroTaunt hate. Have fun having less aggro for more work and spending more mana on slower peels.

Your enchanters last words will be, “Blerg…why didn’t he just MacroTaunt and save me?”

If you are relying on taunt as a Knight, your Enchanter is already screwed. Their last words will be "Why did he run over and start taunting furiously instead of casting snap agro?". Focus on your snap agro spells. Taunt is just a bonus.

[Snaggles]

If you are relying on taunt as a Knight, your Enchanter is already screwed. Their last words will be "Why did he run over and start taunting furiously instead of casting snap agro?". Focus on your snap agro spells. Taunt is just a bonus.

I wouldnt "run over there" because my enchanter would be right next to me. You know, where even mediocre players know to stand when debuffing something.

Let me know if I can explain that one after MacroTaunt.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me know if I can explain that one after MacroTaunt.

I don't think that people need more nonsensical posting from you right now. You clearly aren't here to have a real discussion. You should learn to not be such a sore loser.

Just remember for MacroTaunt you shouldn't use it when the mob is out of melee range, or you will put taunt on cooldown and get the "out of range" message. Have fun with your new macro!

[Snaggles]

I don't think that people need more nonsensical posting from you right now. You clearly aren't here to have a real discussion. You should learn to not be such a sore loser.

Just remember for MacroTaunt you shouldn't use it when the mob is out of melee range, or you will put taunt on cooldown and get the "out of range" message. Have fun with your new macro!

Why do you think I would use it out of range? I've tanked every epic mob outside the Queen in Chardok. Also quite a bit of stuff in ToV. Ever tanked an unslowed flurry drake?

Just because I have a spell linked to a button I normally never use doesn't mean I cant cast a spell without hitting the button. I'm a high-functioning EQ player, I can choose which button to push and when to push it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why do you think I would use it out of range? I've tanked every epic mob outside the Queen in Chardok. Also quite a bit of stuff in ToV. Ever tanked an unslowed flurry drake?

Just because I have a spell linked to a button I normally never use doesn't mean I cant cast a spell without hitting the button. I'm a high-functioning EQ player, I can choose which button to push and when to push it.

Glad to hear you are good at the game! I have no reason to doubt your skills. Unlike yourself, I don't use the "you're a bad player, therefore..." argument to try and win debates.

[Gloomlord]

But you do use the "you are a troll" argument, don't you?

Bcbrown actually gave some effort, and you repeated calling him a troll.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But you do use the "you are a troll" argument, don't you?


You are factually a troll. It's not an argument. 85% of your post history is literally just insulting people. Well over 400 of your posts. You did this to yourself, and your post history is available for everyone to see. People don't have to take my word for it.

Don't blame me for your actions. You earned the title of troll. I still think you can redeem yourself, you just need to stop making posts like this.

[Guesty07]

Glad we all agree that using taunt as and when needed it thr best move.

[Gloomlord]

You are factually a troll. It's not an argument. 85% of your post history is literally just insulting people. Well over 400 of your posts. You did this to yourself, and your post history is available for everyone to see. People don't have to take my word for it.

Don't blame me for your actions. You earned the title of troll. I still think you can redeem yourself, you just need to stop making posts like this.

Case in point.

Calling me a troll, even claiming that it's "factual", in order to shut down a conversation is just a pathetic ad hominem.

You can stop making posts that are widely regarded as unintelligent and unfounded, but alas, here we are.

[Duik]

Glad we all agree that using taunt as and when needed it thr best move.

Umm sorry mate. DSM will never agree to that.
You must be new here.
We still have many pages of "no im not you are" to go. Multiple uses of the words factually and math and the terms stop trolling! I have faith in you and stop giving newbies Le bad info. You see, hes just trying to save us all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Glad we all agree that using taunt as and when needed it thr best move.

Yes, we all agree on that. Nobody in this thread ever said otherwise lol. This thread is a classic example of trolls like yourself getting worked up over strawman arguments fabricated out of thin air.

Showing the benefits of spamming taunt is not the equivalent to saying one strategy is better than the other. I simply disproved the basleless claim that spamming taunt has no value, or has a significant opportunity cost here https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140 .

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3661899&postcount=14 My position on page 2 is the same one I have been saying this entire time. Please learn read what people are saying. Also learn to stop trolling.

Spamming taunt and saving taunt are both viable strategies. With that being said, taunt shouldn't be relied upon in the first place.

[Penish]

look at this dude, just unhinged on his 18th page, lawl

[Danth]

Spamming taunt also provides the 8.33% bonus to taunt successfully, so it provides more value than just 10 hate/minute. I am not sure why people keep omitting that.


I won't speak for anyone else, but I gloss over it because as far as I can tell the quoted part only appllies to situations where the tank is being rather lazy and doesn't care much if something flips once in awhile. In more normal gameplay where you're holding aggro fulltime, the odds of the spammed taunt doing anything more than adding the +1, is essentially zero per cent. Maybe that's why I'm less hostile towards you, here, than some other posters: I'm not interpreting this type of taunt usage as something to do when you're acting as tank for content like chardok queen (which I've done, so between Snaggles and I, I guess that means we've done it all), but for when you're doing second-tier content you don't care about and putting in only cursory effort. You have to be losing aggro *a lot* for that ~8% chance to apply, which would normally be defined as poor gameplay for a knight, except where we're already aknowledging that it's more like lazymode.

For things like saving taunt for charm flips, taunt's more like a mana-saver for the knight than a life-saver for the enchanter. If your enchanter needs your taunt to work to save his bacon, he's already as good as dead, given taunt's failure rate. In practice you're using other spells too, and a taunt success means you don't need to cast as many to build a threat lead.

It all goes back to my first comment I made: In practice in a solo tank setting on a paladin/shadowknight you can get away with using taunt however you want because it's not that important a skill to begin with. Use it carefully, use it with wild abandon, use it for goofing off, take it off the bar, won't matter in the end.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

look at this dude, just unhinged on his 18th page, lawl

Another troll post for your history. You aren't hurting me or helping yourself. Hopefully you learn to stop trolling one day, but at least you are making it easy for people to see that you are a troll.

You are the unhinged player who is willing to group with people in game under false pretenses, just to try and capture footage of them making mistakes. Be wary of playing with Penish in game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not interpreting this type of taunt usage as something to do when you're acting as tank for content like chardok queen (which I've done, so between Snaggles and I, I guess that means we've done it all), but for when you're doing second-tier content you don't care about and putting in only cursory effort. You have to be losing aggro *a lot* for that ~8% chance to apply, which would normally be defined as poor gameplay for a knight, except where we're already aknowledging that it's more like lazymode.


This is correct. People seem to forget that this thread is asking about agro generation in general. OP did not ask "What is the optimal strategy for keeping agro on Chardok Queen?"

There is little opportunity cost in spamming taunt in most gameplay situations, since a properly played Knight shouldn't be losing agro often in the first place. Spamming taunt gives you a bit of free agro and a chance to taunt automatically if the mob does happen to lose agro on the rare occasion.

I am sure even the most experienced tank has accidentally blown taunt's cooldown in a critical scenario. This still isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. With taunt's 6 second cooldown and high failure rate, you would be planning on taunt's failure anyway. You wouldn't be pressing taunt on Chardok Queen and hinging your entire tanking strategy on the assumption of a success.

[Danth]

This is correct. People seem to forget that this thread is asking about agro generation in general. OP did not ask "What is the optimal strategy for keeping agro on Chardok Queen?"

Forum participants have a tendency to assume discussion is aimed at the bleeding edge. It's why so many "raid considerations" bleed over into the lower-end part of the game. It's why you get players thinking that if Knights don't tank Avatar of War then they must not be able to tank in Unrest. Look at how you have another poster casually suggesting that most or all knights will be bagging their epic for other better 2-handers that are seemingly awarded at character creation. That kind of mindset is so far removed from the normal experience of the majority of players that it may as well come from another planet.

[Toxigen]

It's why you get players thinking that if Knights don't tank Avatar of War then they must not be able to tank in Unrest.

I'll take Things That Never Happened for $500, Alex.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll take Things That Never Happened for $500, Alex.

Danth isn't literally saying that people are suggesting that Knights can tank AoW.

My understanding is that he is saying that people often use the argument from authority fallacy.

"I've tanked x content, therefore I am right."

"You haven't tanked x content, therefore you are wrong."

Or he is referring to the idea some people have that Knights don't have Warrior discs, therefore they can't tank content. Obviously there is content that needs Warrior discs, but the vast majority of content does not.

[Vexenu]

The idea that spamming taunt on cool down is advisable because you might get lucky and coincidentally hit it right when you lose agro is one of the most insane tortured rationalizations I've ever come across, even judging by DSM standards.

Let's consider a metaphor:

Imagine your doctor offered you a weekly subscription to a magic pill that would immediately cure a cold, on the condition that it be taken within a few hours of symptoms first appearing. For our purposes this pill is named Taunt. Unfortunately, Taunt has a very short shelf life, and only lasts for about a week and then must be disposed of (consider this a 7 day "cool down"). So with your subscription to Taunt you only ever have one good pill on hand at a time, and in order for it to be effective you must be prepared to take it within a few hours.

By DSM's tortured logic, he would just take the Taunt pill immediately upon receiving it every week, even if he currently has no symptoms, under the justification that he theoretically might get lucky and arrest a cold right as it begins by sheer luck. This, of course, would leave him without the pill for the remainder of the week, during which he would be entirely unprotected should his symptoms emerge during that period. Obviously, this is not an ideal approach.

Hopefully this metaphor illustrates the foolishness of DSM's reasoning and will cause him to reevaluate his thinking on this matter. Any takers on that bet?

[Toxigen]

Danth isn't literally saying that people are suggesting that Knights can tank AoW.

My understanding is that he is saying that people often use the argument from authority fallacy.

"I've tanked x content, therefore I am right."

"You haven't tanked x content, therefore you are wrong."

Or he is referring to the idea some people have that Knights don't have Warrior discs, therefore they can't tank content. Obviously there is content that needs Warrior discs, but the vast majority of content does not.

no shit.

im saying nobody thinks knights cant tank regular stuff

[Guesty07]

Yes, we all agree on that. Nobody in this thread ever said otherwise lol. This thread is a classic example of trolls like yourself getting worked up over strawman arguments fabricated out of thin air.

Showing the benefits of spamming taunt is not the equivalent to saying one strategy is better than the other. I simply disproved the basleless claim that spamming taunt has no value, or has a significant opportunity cost here https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140 .

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3661899&postcount=14 My position on page 2 is the same one I have been saying this entire time. Please learn read what people are saying. Also learn to stop trolling.

Spamming taunt and saving taunt are both viable strategies. With that being said, taunt shouldn't be relied upon in the first place.


Originally Posted by Keebz View Post
So in your mind, spamming it and hoping to get the timing right is better than deliberately timing it right?



DSM said - "Often times it can be, yes. It frees up your brain to focus on other things. If you need to save taunt and use it strategically every 30 seconds because the rogue is constantly taking agro, you have bigger issues lol. Saving or spamming taunt is not the problem in this group."

[Guesty07]

You are the only troll in this thread that lies, makes narratives up and changes the goal posts. If only your first post in his thread had said, "saving taunt for when needed is the best idea. But I like to spam it, and here is the reasons why-" people would have been like, huh, cool. And we could have saved ourselves 20 pages of nonsense. Troll.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If only your first post in his thread had said, "saving taunt for when needed is the best idea. But I like to spam it, and here is the reasons why-" people would have been like, huh, cool. And we could have saved ourselves 20 pages of nonsense.

I did say that on page 2. This was before I responded to Keebz, which I already said was poorly worded.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3661899&postcount=14

You are the only troll in this thread that lies, makes narratives up and changes the goal posts.

You are projecting your trolling and bad behavior on to me. The post history is clear. You didn't every try to have a dialogue. This was your post in response to my post I linked above:

Lol you should never ever just spam taunt. At all.

You started trolling immediately. You didn't just say "huh, cool" like you claimed you would. It is far too late for you to try and backtrack your poor behavior.

[Guesty07]

You're a troll.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're a troll.

Yet again, you have no rebuttal to my previous post. You are just digging yourself deeper, and acting like a child.

Wahhhh everybody is a troll except me wahhhhhh

Don't like what you say so you're a troll wahhhhhhhh. Big baby. YOU are the troll, nobody else in this thread. Learn to play everquest better.

You are an armature that I won't give the time of day to. Learn to play better. Bad bad bad tank thinking taunt only has 1 use application. Gooodbye

What an idiot. Guy really said spamming taunt is BETTER than using it appropriately ROFL

Very clear troll behavior. Factually you are the troll.

[Guesty07]

You are the troll. Your post history is there for all to see.

[Crede]

The idea that spamming taunt on cool down is advisable because you might get lucky and coincidentally hit it right when you lose agro is one of the most insane tortured rationalizations I've ever come across, even judging by DSM standards.

Let's consider a metaphor:

Imagine your doctor offered you a weekly subscription to a magic pill that would immediately cure a cold, on the condition that it be taken within a few hours of symptoms first appearing. For our purposes this pill is named Taunt. Unfortunately, Taunt has a very short shelf life, and only lasts for about a week and then must be disposed of (consider this a 7 day "cool down"). So with your subscription to Taunt you only ever have one good pill on hand at a time, and in order for it to be effective you must be prepared to take it within a few hours.

By DSM's tortured logic, he would just take the Taunt pill immediately upon receiving it every week, even if he currently has no symptoms, under the justification that he theoretically might get lucky and arrest a cold right as it begins by sheer luck. This, of course, would leave him without the pill for the remainder of the week, during which he would be entirely unprotected should his symptoms emerge during that period. Obviously, this is not an ideal approach.

Hopefully this metaphor illustrates the foolishness of DSM's reasoning and will cause him to reevaluate his thinking on this matter. Any takers on that bet?

He never re evaluates his thinking. If he admits to being wrong, it’s because of an actual game mechanic he either didn’t know or overlooked. When it comes to these types of topics that he thinks are debatable, he pretends he’s some eq philosopher capable of finding truth where nobody else can.

It took him 20 pages to demonstrate what a suboptimal alternative can do. Yes we know taunt spamming has a small chance at success to fire at the exact moment you need it. But the failure is choosing it over just taunting when you need to regain aggro, which is what you should be doing as a tank. The alternative is like saying a shaman should med instead of canni at 60. Just don’t do it unless you are ok with settling with inferiority.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He never re evaluates his thinking. If he admits to being wrong, it’s because of an actual game mechanic he either didn’t know or overlooked. When it comes to these types of topics that he thinks are debatable, he pretends he’s some eq philosopher capable of finding truth where nobody else can.

It took him 20 pages to demonstrate what a suboptimal alternative can do. Yes we know taunt spamming has a small chance at success to fire at the exact moment you need it. But the failure is choosing it over just taunting when you need to regain aggro, which is what you should be doing as a tank. The alternative is like saying a shaman should med instead of canni at 60. Just don’t do it unless you are ok with settling with inferiority.

Lying about other posters is not a valid method of argument. Everything you said about me is trivial to disprove. You continue to hurt yourself while not hurting me. You are simply establishing this repeatable pattern of lying whenever people disagree with you.

Your analogy comparing taunt to medding/cannibalizing is nonsensical on it's face, because both medding and cannibalizing are reliable game mechanics. Taunt is not a reliable game mechanic. It is an apples to oranges comparison. You are also drastically overestimating the opportunity cost of a single lost taunt, which is the worst case when spamming taunt and then switching to strategic use.

Come back when you can address this post, which you have yet to do. I easily rebutted your previous complaints thus far.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3663640&postcount=140

At least you agree that spamming taunt is a viable strategy, which is the baseless claim I was rebutting!

[Guesty07]

Weird that everybody agrees with Crede. Ever thought the problem is you?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Weird that everybody agrees with Crede. Ever thought the problem is you?

The number of people who agree with someone is irrelevant to the truth. That is an Argumentum Ad Populum argument. Just because 100 people claim the sky is orange, it doesn't mean that is true.

If you think I am wrong, use logic, facts, and evidence to prove your point. Not trolling, lies, and insults like you are currently doing. So far you have yet to provide anything in favor of your opinions.

[Snaggles]

I’ve never said taunt is necessary. As Danth mentioned it’s free and might save a bit of mana if you aren’t chain casting 40-60m taunt spells (since DC is borked). It also might be quicker than it takes for the spell to land once you react to the flip. Unslowed that might save someone a second combat round. If it’s a Jugg that might be 340 damage.

That’s why the Church of MacroTaunt is openly inviting new followers. Leave your false taunt gods behind you and learn of this new and better thing! Amen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ve never said taunt is necessary. As Danth mentioned it’s free and might save a bit of mana if you aren’t chain casting 40-60m taunt spells (since DC is borked). It also might be quicker than it takes for the spell to land once you react to the flip. Unslowed that might save someone a second combat round. If it’s a Jugg that might be 340 damage.

That’s why the Church of MacroTaunt is openly inviting new followers. Leave your false taunt gods behind you and learn of this new and better thing! Amen.

I agree taunt is a usable skill. I don't think anybody has stated otherwise.

People are simply vastly overestimating the opportunity cost of a single taunt being wasted. That seems to be their problem with taunt spamming.

Since taunt is unreliable to begin with, you have to assume the first taunt will fail, even when it doesn't. You can't plan around assuming it will succeed.

[Naethyn]

Warriors over there trying to figure out if they should be punching between swings while shadowknights are debating if they should press taunt.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Warriors over there trying to figure out if they should be punching between swings while shadowknights are debating if they should press taunt.

It's wild for sure. Taunt is pretty simple to understand. I am not sure why people are so unwilling to press their taunt buttons. It's ok if one gets wasted here and there.

[Infectious]

I agree taunt is a usable skill. I don't think anybody has stated otherwise.

People are simply vastly overestimating the opportunity cost of a single taunt being wasted. That seems to be their problem with taunt spamming.

Since taunt is unreliable to begin with, you have to assume the first taunt will fail, even when it doesn't. You can't plan around assuming it will succeed.

So just spam it and assume it doesn't work. Got it. Thanks for the 20+ pages. DSM wins again folks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So just spam it and assume it doesn't work. Got it. Thanks for the 20+ pages. DSM wins again folks.

Incorrect. Feel free to use taunt and don't worry about a missed taunt here and there. That's what I am saying.

Not using taunt or being afraid to use taunt because you will "waste" it is not not helping your tanking.

You simply can't rely on taunt working factually speaking. Don't build a strategy upon the assumption of success. Please stop twisting my words because you want to be silly.

[Guesty07]

Let's go back to that 8.33% chance, that stuff had me rolling

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let's go back to that 8.33% chance, that stuff had me rolling

The 8.33% chance to automatically taunt while spamming is still true based on the 50% chance of success from my dataset of 9000 taunts. You have done nothing to counter this point. This is just basic math.

[Guesty07]

You think I use taunt button to get a mob flipped to melee dps back to me? Rofl

[Guesty07]

That isn't what taunt is for on a shadow Knight bud

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You think I use taunt button to get a mob flipped to melee dps back to me? Rofl

That isn't what taunt is for on a shadow Knight bud

Two more troll posts for your history. Keep digging yourself further into that hole. Hopefully you will realize that you aren't convincing anybody with this nonsense.

[Guesty07]

Learn. How. To. Play. Your. Class

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Learn. How. To. Play. Your. Class

You should learn to stop trolling. I know how to play my class just fine. Understanding all use cases for your abilities and spells is a good thing. You clearly want to avoid learning more about the game. So much so you make a fool of yourself.

[bcbrown]

The 8.33% chance to automatically taunt while spamming is still true based on the 50% chance of success from my dataset of 9000 taunts. You have done nothing to counter this point. This is just basic math.

I think it's much closer to 4%, perhaps even 2%. Do you care to summarize your math again? Still happy to stipulate a 50% innate success rate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think it's much closer to 4%, perhaps even 2%. Do you care to summarize your math again? Still happy to stipulate a 50% innate success rate.

50% divided by 6 seconds is 8.33%. You are correct the real number is lower, but that is also true for the 50% taunt chance. There are numerous factors that reduce the chance for spammed taunt and strategic taunt to work in equal proportion. There is an X percent chance for the mob to be out of melee range, for example. If that ends up being 5%, you would reduce both 8.33 and 50 by 5%. This ends up being 7.88 and 47.5. The 5% is just a random number, not real data just to be clear.

You use the 8.33% chance and the 50% chance as base numbers to see the discrepancy between the two in the perfect scenario, while accepting you generally will not be in the perfect scenario.

[Snaggles]

The 50% success rate that is just the chance per second assuming aggro has been lost. If aggro is not lost, it’s a 0% chance of doing anything. So really it’s a game of RNG, will you lose aggro at the fraction of a second taunt remains active and your finger is pressing the button?

Hence wait and click MacroTaunt.

/doability (7-10)
/attack on (with this line it will work for mez breaks, new and improved formula)
/cast 1 (which is likely slot one Shadow Vortex

You now have 50% chance of that taunt instantly peeling aggro (since you waited to click it). For no extra clicks in 1.5 seconds you will have generated another 1k hate from the casted spell. Should the mob have run away chasing your idiot teammate who didn’t debuff or nuke in-range the taunt will miss but the spell will rip it back.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The 50% success rate that is just the chance per second assuming aggro has been lost. If aggro is not lost, it’s a 0% chance of doing anything. So really it’s a game of RNG, will you lose aggro at the fraction of a second taunt remains active and your finger is pressing the button?


When you have a 0% chance of success because you already have agro, this 0% chance applies to both strategies. If you lose agro, you have a 50% chance or an 8.33% chance of success based on the strategy you are using. It's really that simple.

The only difference between the two strategies is when you press the button. It's a single variable that is changing. All other factors apply to both strategies equally. I am not sure why this is difficult to understand.

The benefit of spamming taunt is you are spending a bit less brain power on worrying about pressing taunt, while still getting a chance of success. The benefit of using strategic taunting is you have a higher chance of success at the cost of a bit more brain power and having to click a specific button at the right time. Both strategies have tangible pros and cons. Luckily the opportunity cost of a single missed taunt due to switching between strategies is extremely small, because taunt is unreliable and it has a short cooldown. Don't be afraid to miss a taunt once in a while. If you hesitate because you are afraid of wasting a taunt, that is also hurting your success rate.

[Ripqozko]

This is the new kittens

[Snaggles]

This is the new kittens

Fear the 0%!

[Crede]

I agree taunt is a usable skill. I don't think anybody has stated otherwise.

People are simply vastly overestimating the opportunity cost of a single taunt being wasted. That seems to be their problem with taunt spamming.

Since taunt is unreliable to begin with, you have to assume the first taunt will fail, even when it doesn't. You can't plan around assuming it will succeed.

Nobody is overestimating the opportunity cost of a missed taunt. There’s simply no reason to spam it. Sks don’t need to do much, it’s not hard to taunt manually, and as you pointed out it gives you the benefit of the first taunt success rate being higher. Given you have claimed root rotting many mobs on a shaman is a viable strategy to increase dps which requires far more APM and concentration, you are clearly capable of taunting manually as well instead of lazily spamming it with a hotkey.

Therefore we can conclude you have agreed you are capable of taunting manually, and since it is superior there is no reason to spam taunt.

Thank you for admitting defeat!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nobody is overestimating the opportunity cost of a missed taunt. There’s simply no reason to spam it. Sks don’t need to do much, it’s not hard to taunt manually, and as you pointed out it gives you the benefit of the first taunt success rate being higher. Given you have claimed root rotting many mobs on a shaman is a viable strategy to increase dps which requires far more APM and concentration, you are clearly capable of taunting manually as well instead of lazily spamming it with a hotkey.

Therefore we can conclude you have agreed you are capable of taunting manually, and since it is superior there is no reason to spam taunt.

Thank you for admitting defeat!

Simply claiming victory without merit is meaningless.

There are reasons to spam taunt, you just want to ignore them for no sensible reason. I prefer to give people all relevant information and let them decide what to do. Hiding information isn't helping anybody.

Snaggles never uses taunt at all. In his case, spamming taunt will give him a higher chance of successfully taunting, while also freeing up his focus. 8.3% is better than 0%. Clearly he doesn't want to press taunt for whatever reason, so this is a good middle ground for a user like that. Adding taunt to a macro you are already spamming (if you have one) takes zero effort. For players that don't press taunt and have a spamable macro, taunt spam is a method to increase agro generation for free, without changing existing habits. Something is better than nothing, and some people may not have realized they could do this.

You could claim that any player who doesn't use taunt is playing incorrectly. But at the end of the day it's the player's choice as to what they do. Give them the information, and they'll figure out what works best for them.

I am not sure why you are so hostile towards discussions. It is very strange.

[Crede]

Simply claiming victory without merit is meaningless.

There are reasons to spam taunt, you just want to ignore them for no sensible reason. I prefer to give people all relevant information and let them decide what to do. Hiding information isn't helping anybody.

Snaggles never uses taunt at all. In his case, spamming taunt will give him a higher chance of successfully taunting, while also freeing up his focus. Clearly he doesn't want to press taunt for whatever reason, so this is a good middle ground for a user like that.

I am not sure why you are so hostile towards discussions. It is very strange.

The fact that snaggles chooses not to press taunt is irrelevant. I’m not sure why you’re using his scenario as last ditch effort for your logic. We are talking about class optimal strategy, not what one specific player chooses to do.

The simple fact remains as a tank you should be utilizing your tools to the best of your classes ability. There’s simply no reason to spam taunt. And you yourself have admitted it’s not hard to meet the concentration level needed to manual taunt.

I am sorry you are wrong and have to come at me and call me hostile and such, it’s quite childish and unfortunately only diminishes your reputation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The fact that snaggles chooses not to press taunt is irrelevant. I’m not sure why you’re using his scenario as last ditch effort for your logic. We are talking about class optimal strategy, not what one specific player chooses to do.

The simple fact remains as a tank you should be utilizing your tools to the best of your classes ability. There’s simply no reason to spam taunt. And you yourself have admitted it’s not hard to meet the concentration level needed to manual taunt.

I am sorry you are wrong and have to come at me and call me hostile and such, it’s quite childish and unfortunately only diminishes your reputation.

It's not irrelevant. Snaggles is a real user that could benefit from taunt spam. You are simply in denial. An 8% chance of taunt success is better than a 0% chance of taunt success.

This thread is not locked to the narrow discussion of "the most optimal strategy" simply because you say so. That is nonsense lol. OP did not make this specific requirement either.

I have been talking about the different taunt strategies this entire time, and you cannot force me to stop simply because you want to be correct on an elf forum. It is ok to be wrong sometimes, you don't have to act like a fool whenever somebody says something you disagree with.

[bcbrown]

Feel free to use taunt and don't worry about a missed taunt here and there. That's what I am saying.

Could that be summarized as "if you like pressing the button, don't worry about suboptimal behavior because there's a minimal impact"?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Could that be summarized as "if you like pressing the button, don't worry about suboptimal behavior because there's a minimal impact"?

That is somewhat close, but it misses some nuance that I think is important to fully understand the concept.

A summary would look more like:

"The opportunity cost of missing a single taunt is minimal due to the unreliable nature of taunt and it's 6 second cooldown. Switching between spamming taunt and using taunt strategically costs you a single taunt in the worst case. Therefore, do not be afraid to press the taunt button for fear of a missed taunt."

[bcbrown]

How about "if you like pressing the button, don't worry about suboptimal behavior because there's a minimal impact. If the content requires optimal behavior the switching cost is minimally low"?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How about "if you like pressing the button, don't worry about suboptimal behavior because there's a minimal impact. If the content requires optimal behavior the switching cost is minimally low"?

That is closer. But I still prefer mine:


"The opportunity cost of missing a single taunt is minimal due to the unreliable nature of taunt and it's 6 second cooldown. Switching between spamming taunt and using taunt strategically costs you a single taunt in the worst case. Therefore, do not be afraid to press the taunt button for fear of a missed taunt."

It is important to mention that the cost of missing a single taunt is always minimal, regardless of how you are using taunt. This is due to taunt's unreliable nature. That is the key to this concept. You are only losing a single taunt in the worst case (assuming you didn't happen to press taunt at the right time) when switching between strategies, therefore it isn't the end of the world if you choose to spam taunt.

[Duik]

Umm sorry mate. DSM will never agree to that.
You must be new here.
We still have many pages of "no im not you are" to go. Multiple uses of the words factually and math and the terms stop trolling! I have faith in you and stop giving newbies Le bad info. You see, hes just trying to save us all.

This is from page 18.

[bcbrown]

Ok, I can accept your wording, although I'll provide a final update of my wording to hopefully make it closer: ""if you like pressing the button, don't worry about suboptimal behavior because there's a minimal impact, a single unreliable taunt."

I want to go back to the post of yours that you have been using as your initial description of your position:

Taunt only does anything if someone else has aggro. Don't put it in a macro, you'll waste it 97% of the time. You use taunt when you need aggro and don't already have it, not to build an aggro buffer. Bad tanks blow their taunt for no reason. Good tanks save it for when they need to take aggro from someone else. If your taunt is on cooldown when you lose aggro, you played badly.
You are also "wasting" taunt by not using it. Taunt has a fast enough cooldown to where it can be spammed, and then used more strategically when necessary. The main benefit to spamming taunt is you can get hate back instantly if it happens to be timed right, and you don't have to think about it. This frees up your brain to focus on other things.

Someone is describing an approach that you have not contested being more-optimal than your approach, and you reply by saying "try this less-optimal approach". By using the word "wasting" you're implicitly criticizing their approach.

Usually I contest your aspects of your position through math and logic. Here I'm commenting on tone. Can you see how it's, uh, a little provocative to, in response to a description of someone using an optimal approach, say "here's a less-optimal approach"?

If that's not the message you wanted to convey, can you reflect for a moment on why the message received is not the message intended, and whether there's a way to change the conveyance of the message in a way that makes it less possible to be interpreted so provocatively?

[bcbrown]

This is from page 18.

Don Quixote had his windmills. I too enjoy tilting. Maybe this time!

[bcbrown]

Apologies for the triple-post, but I'd like propose to you some different words to engage the topic in the very first post, and I'd rather not make such a substantive edit. Look at the difference in tone between the actual post you made and this hypothetical:

"You're right that optimal play is to avoid having taunt on cooldown if/when you lose aggro, but I think you're overstating the impact. The opportunity cost of missing a single taunt is minimal due to the unreliable nature of taunt and it's 6 second cooldown. Switching between spamming taunt and using taunt strategically costs you a single taunt in the worst case. Therefore, do not be afraid to press the taunt button for fear of a missed taunt."

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If that's not the message you wanted to convey, can you reflect for a moment on why the message received is not the message intended, and whether there's a way to change the conveyance of the message in a way that makes it less possible to be interpreted so provocatively?

I think everybody can improve, including myself. I am far from the most provocative poster in this thread, however.

Lol you should never ever just spam taunt. At all.

Wahhhh everybody is a troll except me wahhhhhh

The tone in these posts are certainly worse than the tone in my posts, for example.

The question is: why do you ignore the bad behavior of every other poster? If you are concerned about tone being an issue, most of the posters in this thread need to improve themselves more than I.

[Gloomlord]

DSM, you think faux-politeness hides the tone of your posts? You are sorely mistaken...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, you think faux-politeness hides the tone of your posts? You are sorely mistaken...

You are clearly biased against me. You have hundreds of posts insulting me. Is it not possible you are simply reading all of my posts in the worst possible way? That is the most likely scenario.

The tone of your posts is quite clear. Obvious trolling. I am pretty sure you have hit over 450 posts now that are just insults and trolling. well over 80% of your post history. Will you ever post something useful on these forums?

[Gloomlord]

Case in point, again.

How many people in this thread are reading your posts the same way I am? Tally them all up, and then get back to me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Case in point, again.

How many people in this thread are reading your posts the same way I am? Tally them all up, and then get back to me.

When most of the posters in this thread are acting like this:

Wahhhh everybody is a troll except me wahhhhhh

It is pretty clear they are also reading everything I say in the worst possible way.

[Gloomlord]

That's exactly my point, isn't it? We're reading the worst possible way, because the overwhelming majority of us see you for the liar you are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We're reading the worst possible way

Exactly. If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.

[Gloomlord]

You've long since passed the line of where you should be given the benefit of the doubt, DSM.

You've dug this grave, now you can lie in it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You've long since passed the line of where you should be given the benefit of the doubt, DSM.

You've dug this grave, now you can lie in it.

You are simply projecting unfortunately. 450+ of your posts now are just insults, lies, and trolling. that is 80% of every post you have made on these forums. You are factually a troll. I am not sure why you think anybody will listen to you.

[Gloomlord]

"Damn! He's right! What should I think of?! OH, RIGHT! I should bring up the fact most of his posts are him calling me out. That's sure to convince people he's a troll, and not myself"

Give it a rest, already. The jig is up, and you should be heading out of the thread, and hopefully the forums.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"Damn! He's right! What should I think of?! OH, RIGHT! I should bring up the fact most of his posts are him calling me out. That's sure to convince people he's a troll, and not myself"


When your entire purpose on these forums is to harass other people, that isn't going to win you any friends. Even if you were correct with regards to all of the lies you spew about me, you would still factually be a troll who harasses other people. You've become the very thing you think you are fighting.

[Gloomlord]

You're the only one I'm "harassing", you manipulative sociopath.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're the only one I'm "harassing", you manipulative sociopath.

Yikes.

[Gloomlord]

Oh, that's funny. You think that "yikes" projection is going to work?

[Snaggles]

Kidding aside, taunt for a knight is almost worthless. I agree with some here, if not running potg and c2 using it with intent can probably save you a lot of mana over the course of a grind. Realistically my whimsical "new taunt" is just a mez-break button which might be handy (I guess).

The only time I would spam anything is if it A.) gave a benefit B.) was linked to something else I already was needing to spam. Otherwise the net benefit to hitting a button 10+ times a minute is just not worth it, to me. If I'm going to use a tool I'll use it efficiently or just skip over it and simplify my game.

IMHO knowing what spells to cast and when is most the battle for casual tanking. For the intense stuff, and having access to a GCD and knowing how use it in conjunction with spell slot #1 is very important. It's probably a 30% boost in threat by increasing the number of spells you can crank out in the same period of time. After that, its tank positioning and quickly/accurately calling for assists.

In the end, everyone should just play how they want to play. If they are struggling they should objectively seek out ways to improve their game (even if it means maybe giving up "their way").

[Vivitron]

I’ve never said taunt is necessary. As Danth mentioned it’s free and might save a bit of mana if you aren’t chain casting 40-60m taunt spells (since DC is borked). It also might be quicker than it takes for the spell to land once you react to the flip. Unslowed that might save someone a second combat round. If it’s a Jugg that might be 340 damage.

That’s why the Church of MacroTaunt is openly inviting new followers. Leave your false taunt gods behind you and learn of this new and better thing! Amen.

You don't like Clinging Darkness to save some mana?

[cotterpin]

https://i.imgur.com/JKYpLmo.png

[Guesty07]

Calls legit everybody else on the fourms a troll every time they SAy something he doesn't like. That in itself is a form of trolling LOL.

You've proven time and time again in this thread you don't understand when or why to use taunt. You think its to get agro back the very second a mob flips away from you.

[Guesty07]

And yes, I have mimicked you numerous times in am attempt you get you to self reflect

[Gloomlord]

https://i.imgur.com/JKYpLmo.png

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQmw5Oy_YDir8W_0uOYJMdWnBFF1dk_v jHtQxRgUDwTqfwNWg6r0lHidELtJ0lQzSh7jho&usqp=CAU

[Duik]

DSM can only wish he was Sgt Seymour Skinner.
DSM Despises Skinner Memes.