How did they get this game so right?

[Tushy_master]

It had to be luck right? Or was Brad a genius?

They were basically just ripping of DnD and MUDs. But so many other mmorpgs sucked ass.

[mycoolrausch]

Because they were trying to make a fantasy world. Every other game that came after was just trying to make a game. But they didn't fail. They were trying to get people to play, not create a good fantasy world. By those metrics they succeeded far beyond everquest.

[Lune]

I think trying to reproduce the DND/MUD experience in a multiplayer online game naturally lends itself to good online gameplay, and I believe the EQ influences are a reason why classic WoW was so highly regarded as well.

1. You've got to rely on people. You sell items personally and has my favorite economy of any game I've played. You engage with a player any time you buy or sell something. I literally had a potion guy and, at one time, a transfer guy (Hagglebaron)
2. You're trying to get fat loots (dopamine; Blizzard can't even get this one right anymore)
3. There is interplay between #1 and #2. The strong social element makes loot and other achievements more rewarding
4. It's easy to play, difficult to master. The tedium paces periods of action with periods of relative inaction. Everything descending into madness and chaos as you wipe and then end up naked at your bind, having potentially lost hours of time, makes it that much more gratifying when you can consistently avoid this.

Modern MMO's have lost their fundamentals and play more like lobby ARPG's.

[Tushy_master]

Re-examining EQ, it seems like certain things were kind of mailed in, like trade skills and lore to some degree. Other things they NAILED like starting cities, spell casting system, character art, and certain dungeons.

The innate difficulty and need to group and socialize was mostly Brad from what I can gather and it really the game.

Other than that it was pretty much a 3D MUD. They designed a bunch of dungeons using MOBs and race/classes from DnD.

They didn't antiicpateexpect "raiding" or camping to be a thing.

[wuanahto]

too much time is a thing
this game sucked up time
then warcraft happened

[Jimjam]

Its a dnd simulator. Other mmorpgs are MTG simulators.

[Toxigen]

asherons call was vastly superior hope this helps

[Evia]

asherons call was vastly superior hope this helps

shun the non-believer!

jk. idk. i never played ac1 or ac2

[Evia]

Re-examining EQ, it seems like certain things were kind of mailed in, like trade skills and lore to some degree. Other things they NAILED like starting cities, spell casting system, character art, and certain dungeons.

The innate difficulty and need to group and socialize was mostly Brad from what I can gather and it really the game.

Other than that it was pretty much a 3D MUD. They designed a bunch of dungeons using MOBs and race/classes from DnD.

They didn't antiicpateexpect "raiding" or camping to be a thing.

i kinda like the lore...but it doesnt feel finished. I agree with pretty much everything else here in this take.

EQ feels like a passion project and I think thats where the magic is. You can tell the people who made it actually cared about making a good game and not just a cash grab. Everything else these days just feels like they wanna milk you dry as much as possible until next years new version 2.0. I still havent experience everything EQ has to offer and ive been playing off and on for 20 years. The closest thing to real dnd vibes in a multiplayer setting imho.

[magnetaress]

OP let me let you in on a secret

:Brad: and Sony at the time (even lol) thought that this shit wouldn't even make any money and it was originally a pleasure project that Him (brad bless) and SMedly dumped their savings into and got lucky on getting a paycheck from Sony SPORTS entertainment at the time, this was going to be like their big shot into getting into the gaming biz butt they had

ZERO PHDs and Psychology papers on addiction and skinner boxing

They hired ppl and where ppl who wanted to created a world and bring it to life.

They cared FUCK ALL about

:progression
:raiding
:balance
:time investment
:engagmement metrics
:monthly subs
:player retention

they had no idea what the fuck would happen they just wanted to make the best elf simulation there ever was and it didn't matter if you where a level one elf talkin to npcs because level 60 did not exist in their minds until later into kunark and, then, Sony Online entertainment....

and yes I know verent and 989 but sony was their big parents. those where like shell companies once the game was succesfull enough for PoP launch it was time to cash in the IP and those companies where no longer nesccessary

G-d bless

and br-d bless!

[Deathrydar]

I think it comes down to game mechanics and the type of player the game is made for:

If you create a game where the end of the game is the destination, where every class can solo, and where the unique roles of each class blur, you will attract that type of player base.

If you create a game where the journey is the destination, where every class pretty much shines while grouping, and where every class has a particular role, you will attract that type of player base.

[BigPlays]

DnD neckbeards who spent hours around a table now can do they same thing but never leave their basement.

While I think they nailed a lot of things, for a game with quest in its name, I spent way more time camping than questing. You would think that many of the items you would get would be done by questing for it like they did with Sol Ro Armor. The game technically was an open beta for a while IMO

[Evia]

DnD neckbeards who spent hours around a table now can do they same thing but never leave their basement.

While I think they nailed a lot of things, for a game with quest in its name, I spent way more time camping than questing. You would think that many of the items you would get would be done by questing for it like they did with Sol Ro Armor. The game technically was an open beta for a while IMO

i often wonder if the game would be better or worse if it were actually quest focused in leveling progression and gearing vs what we know as camping and grinding.

camping and grinding are not really fun...but we do it anyway and for much longer than most games due to eq's longer progression to max lvl. with nothing to spice up the experience besides switching zones, i'm actually surprised most of us do it.

questing in EQ is pretty ok fun if you dont mind reading. ive had a few memorable quests in the game. the problem with them is theyre not viable for exping.

now i'd usually side with the idea that the questing would be better but i hated wows questing. so idk? either way the name is a bit deceptive for how very little questing you'll likely be doing.

[BigPlays]

i often wonder if the game would be better or worse if it were actually quest focused in leveling progression and gearing vs what we know as camping and grinding.

camping and grinding are not really fun...but we do it anyway and for much longer than most games due to eq's longer progression to max lvl. with nothing to spice up the experience besides switching zones, i'm actually surprised most of us do it.

questing in EQ is pretty ok fun if you dont mind reading. ive had a few memorable quests in the game. the problem with them is theyre not viable for exping.

now i'd usually side with the idea that the questing would be better but i hated wows questing. so idk? either way the name is a bit deceptive for how very little questing you'll likely be doing.

I think long quests should give ample exp and loot. It is like the devs were either too lazy or under tight deadlines to design questions, rewards, dialogue etc. It was easier to code in a rare spawn with a rare item and call it a day. The game really should be called Evercamp.

[magnetaress]

DnD neckbeards who spent hours around a table now can do ***a lot of the same things*** never leave their basement.

While I think they nailed a lot of things, for a game with quest in its name, I spent way more time camping than questing. You would think that many of the items you would get would be done by questing for it like they did with Sol Ro Armor. The game technically was an open beta for a while IMO

***provided thy neckbeards pay a monthly sub and engage with the metrics and grind***

[magnetaress]

^ or online pixel shop!

[magnetaress]

if i added custom content to a p99 esque clone (channeling would be ffixed) it would be a lot more low lvl quests and npc dialugue u could ask them about all kinds of things in their city and the world and every npc would have their own opinion on it -- lkike u could be like /say 'what about Antonius Bayle' and the baker may be like ...

"well he is a clown butt a gud clown" and u could be like what about Commander Kane and they'd be like "Them gnolls sure don't fuck with commander kane he sure makes sure the bread shipments get delivered on time, who cares about a few missing hoodrats'.

[magnetaress]

you could get like a 9/29 +5 agi katana at lvl 40 or one with int

or a dagger that looked like a katana with like +5 int and +5 mr that was wizard only and had a clicky 6.0 sec bonds 10 charges at lvl 50 and was rechargable somewhere easy for the wiz to port to by just handing it into an npc and they'd give u back a charged one maybe it would cost periodots or something to charge it up, so the sword + periodots == sword lookin cool dagger back for wizards

[magnetaress]

i would also nerf the shit out of epics and make everything with a click or proc effect work like the above so u would have to charge/click everything so no more infinate procs on weapons like yekesha they'd be like an insta cast stun with like 30 charges or something

[BigPlays]

I remember there was a comic book store that had DnD groups and you actually had to pay to join a DnD group

[magnetaress]

I never did. I made friends. Lol.

[Tushy_master]

They didn't antiicpateexpect "raiding" or camping to be a thing.

I meant to write they didn’t anticipate raiding (with large numbers of people) to be a thing. In an interview I watched with a game designer, he said they were blown away by everyone’s ability to organize in large groups to kill Cazic Thule when PoF was released.

It just shows how much they didn’t really know things would turn out with emergent game play, but they turned out fine.

[Tushy_master]

While I think they nailed a lot of things, for a game with quest in its name, I spent way more time camping than questing. You would think that many of the items you would get would be done by questing for it like they did with Sol Ro Armor. The game technically was an open beta for a while IMO

This is an excellent point, something I forgot to add in my OP. Questing seems like somewhat of an afterthought which is indeed kind of funny considering the title of the game. But to Evia’s point I think it kind of worked out. It naturally put a larger emphasis on grouping with others for EXP and items, which IMO is the very core of what makes this game so great.

[Tnair]

they were able to succeed because the market was so small. Blizzard and Tencent execs these days talk about how a game is dead with "only" ten thousand players online ... investors are now interested in propping up naked cash grab casino machines with a thin veneer of Fantasy, and those games eat up the available marketing and funding. the early mmo era ultimately failed as a business which is why theyre all run as nostalgia theme parks with cash shops, and why new games are just gacha slot machines that run on auto play. similar to why big budget movies suck today: the industry has developed out of the hands of weirdos making labors of love, and into the hands of tech bro make-a-quick-buck brand management people

[magnetaress]

Blizzard finely destroyed themselves forever. The only ppl they have left are the gambling addicted and the elf larpers who are only slightly less gambling addicted cuz they never grind past lfr ilvl (smart imo because M+ is a massive shit show) and raiding has been distilled into a very empty zergfest which is gated by ilvls and itemsets and programmable macros.

[magnetaress]

Blizzard finely destroyed themselves forever. The only ppl they have left are the gambling addicted and the elf larpers who are only slightly less gambling addicted cuz they never grind past lfr ilvl (smart imo because M+ is a massive shit show) and raiding has been distilled into a very empty zergfest which is gated by ilvls and itemsets and programmable macros.
All of which is precisely time gated and requires weekly participation to not fall behind and carries are kinda only for the AoTC achievement and weekly vault so u can get quickly added and kicked based on ur IO.


The life is out of the game ppl don't even talk to eachother anymore or hangout. They just look at #s and kick or silently requeue.

Free speech is so destroyed u will get an automated ban for gently trying to coach summone

[azeth]

Eq's itemization until around PoP is probably the best in gaming history. For me, that's what separates it from other MMOs - they absolutely perfected the carrot on the stick.

You can tell exactly what somebody is wearing, know where they got it, know what it took to get it, and probably even guess what guild they're in just by their appearance without inspecting them

[Gugg]

It had to be luck right? Or was Brad a genius?

They were basically just ripping of DnD and MUDs. But so many other mmorpgs sucked ass.

Let me fix that for you...

How did he get this game so right and yet at the same time so wrong?

[Gugg]

Let me fix that for you...



More importantly, why.

[Gugg]

It had to be luck right? Or was Brad a genius?

They were basically just ripping of DnD and MUDs. But so many other mmorpgs sucked ass.

Yeah that was it, EQ exists because of pure luck.

He woke up and flipped a coin...

"Heads I have the creative IQ to create EQ, tails I don't."

Obviously heads won.

He lost the coin toss on staying alive though which is bad luck.

[druidbob]

Eq's itemization until around PoP is probably the best in gaming history. For me, that's what separates it from other MMOs - they absolutely perfected the carrot on the stick.

You can tell exactly what somebody is wearing, know where they got it, know what it took to get it, and probably even guess what guild they're in just by their appearance without inspecting them

That reminds me, why did people back in live always get butthurt when you inspected them? I remember starting out and seeing a mage in a cool robe and I wanted to know what it was so I inspected, only to be told this was some huge taboo to do that without asking first. Why though?

[aussenseiter]

That reminds me, why did people back in live always get butthurt when you inspected them? I remember starting out and seeing a mage in a cool robe and I wanted to know what it was so I inspected, only to be told this was some huge taboo to do that without asking first. Why though?

If I walked up to you and started fingering your trousers, would you like that?

[unsunghero]

That reminds me, why did people back in live always get butthurt when you inspected them? I remember starting out and seeing a mage in a cool robe and I wanted to know what it was so I inspected, only to be told this was some huge taboo to do that without asking first. Why though?

What’s weird was the cultural paradigm shift in WoW (maybe this eventually happened in EQ) where part of being in the “end game” was standing near the mailbox or bank and watching people ogle your gear

Countless memes and satire vids made about it

[long.liam]

It had to be luck right? Or was Brad a genius?

They were basically just ripping of DnD and MUDs. But so many other mmorpgs sucked ass.

They got a lot wrong too. Mostly they copied a lot of previously established RPG stuff from DND and such.

[Vexenu]

There was seriously just something in the water in 1998-1999 that resulted in a plethora of the greatest and most influential games of all time being released that year. Consider just a partial list of the titles released in that time frame:

Half-Life
StarCraft
EverQuest
CounterStrike
Team Fortress Classic
Baldur's Gate
Quake 3 Arena
Starsiege: Tribes
Unreal Tournament
System Shock 2
Age of Wonders
Heroes of Might and Magic 3
Planescape: Torment
Jagged Alliance 2

Like honestly, what the fuck? You literally have a single calendar year in which over a dozen absolutely legendary PC games were released, many of which were incredibly innovative and groundbreaking in their own right (HL, EQ, SC, Tribes, AoW, BG, CS), others of which perfected the formulas of previous releases (SS2, HOMM3, JA2, Q3, TFC).

But they all absolutely nailed it. Really incredible in hindsight. It's been almost 25 years since then and we still haven't had another year of PC gaming remotely comparable to that one. And I very much doubt we ever will.

[Trexller]

investment bankers got ahold of the video game industry after the success of early titles like that

prior to wall street realizing that gaming is the future of entertainment, game developers put all their effort into making a game good and fun to play.

these days, devs put all their effort into making a game profitable, and more profitable each time. the effort put into making a game good and fun to play, only goes as far as they need to in order to get people to buy the game and then pay for extras

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

too much time is a thing
this game sucked up time
then warcraft happened

Yup. There isn't too much time anymore, near as I can tell. Not among normal folks.

NYT has an article on Texas' death row (200+ peeps) and how they are getting deep into D&D. Someone hook these poor bastards up with a new p99 server! Can't be a TLP cuz that's cruel.

Gotta work on a nursing home server too. But that is pure $$ and so DPG will put the kibosh on that. Those folks will rejoice if they delevel. Have to take that into account in game mechanics.

[zelld52]

investment bankers got ahold of the video game industry after the success of early titles like that

prior to wall street realizing that gaming is the future of entertainment, game developers put all their effort into making a game good and fun to play.

these days, devs put all their effort into making a game profitable, and more profitable each time. the effort put into making a game good and fun to play, only goes as far as they need to in order to get people to buy the game and then pay for extras

BG3 is great fun, and is being praised for doing the opposite of this. It turns out a game can be really well-crafted, hit all the marks for fans, lack any add-on content, and still sell a lot of copies.

Hopefully we see a shift in this predatory behavior from Gaming (aka Investment) companies

[Tormmac]

BG3 is great fun, and is being praised for doing the opposite of this. It turns out a game can be really well-crafted, hit all the marks for fans, lack any add-on content, and still sell a lot of copies.

Hopefully we see a shift in this predatory behavior from Gaming (aka Investment) companies

bg3 is a gay dating sim pretending to be a game for lonely people who dont go outside

[Trexller]

bg3 is a gay dating sim pretending to be a game for lonely people who dont go outside

basically yeah, not to mention exposing children to nudity and bestiality

[Topgunben]

Because they were trying to make a fantasy world. Every other game that came after was just trying to make a game. But they didn't fail. They were trying to get people to play, not create a good fantasy world. By those metrics they succeeded far beyond everquest.

it's a good point. Every other game has to in some way, some how balance everything so choices dont really matter much in the end. Even the expansions of EQ past Velious did this. For example, choosing a barbarian warrior gave you shitty vision, no regen and no FSI. Not to mention you had no ability to solo at later levels.

Some classes and some races are simply better, and sometimes we choose a race/class combo in this EQ experience not because they are the best, but because we like them the most.

[Ooloo]

I definitely prefer the experience of having bests and worsts over having no bests and no worsts.

EQ being brutally punishing is what makes achieving things in the game feel significant.

When I played EQ2 I just kinda shrugged every time I achieved anything because it felt inevitable and hollow. That model is better for business though, because it attracts more casuals.

[roks1]

I'd say the biggest reason EQ stands out is that the developers didn't just remove and nerf all the mechanics in the game when players figured out all the many many MANY tricks that devs didn't intend to happen. Split pulling with feign death when FD was just a skill meant to prevent a monk from death in a bad spot, it became much more than it's initial design. Same with kiting, fear kiting, swarm kiting, you name it, all things that players sussed out that while sometimes devs would tone something down if it was way out of hand, they rolled with the blue prints the players came up with.
Not only did they carve out more mechanics for the stuff players figured out but instead of just nerfing, removing, streamlining and turning the game into modern MMO rotation/script slop they would also use the power of itemization as a much more rewarding manner of steering the players into new roles that weren't there before. by using items and developing around players learning new exploits / tricks / weird behaviors in the game, they managed to keep players engaged trying to figure out new shit. How many raid strategies are possible for alot of the old shit? people who raided in the past wouldn't even recognize the raid scene (even before all the "enhancements") because we evolved raid strategy using unconventional strats to get to mobs of choice in premium time due to racing. How many modern mmo shitslops have raids that people can adapt to in a way that the devs didn't intend but its allowed? can't think of any.

Sandbox >>>> Instanced conveyor belt roboraids (and their uninspired itemizations)

[roks1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqW42BFqVjo&list=PL71C8CC4461168D76&index=49&t=1806s

[cd288]

Re-examining EQ, it seems like certain things were kind of mailed in, like trade skills and lore to some degree. Other things they NAILED like starting cities, spell casting system, character art, and certain dungeons.

The innate difficulty and need to group and socialize was mostly Brad from what I can gather and it really the game.

Other than that it was pretty much a 3D MUD. They designed a bunch of dungeons using MOBs and race/classes from DnD.

They didn't antiicpateexpect "raiding" or camping to be a thing.

How was the lore mailed in? EQ has really deep lore

[Eagish]

The thing that engaged me from the first was that kind of 'day frozen in time' aspect of the overall story line. What the heck was Ambassador D'Vinn plotting with Emperor Crush? The world didn't feel like a generic sandbox.

My buddy's barbarian warrior, Mybarbwar, getting lost in the tunnel into black burrow because he couldn't see in the dark, getting gang-banged by the guards and dying in the dark, then needing help recovering his gear was a classic first experience into the harshness of the game mechanics.

Me realizing I could play more than one song at a time and keeping multiple effects up at the same time felt like a revelation. And infravision not really working on those Everfrost skellies, yikes.

[IshayaBehas]

It's always fascinating to see how some games hit the mark while others fall short. Sometimes, it's a mix of luck, creativity, and a deep understanding of what players want. Brad and the team behind this game might have drawn inspiration from DnD and MUDs, but they likely added their unique twist and made it work brilliantly.
Speaking of games, have you ever read this article on how does solitaire cash work (https://joywallet.com/article/solitaire-cash-review/)? It's a classic card game that many enjoy during their leisure time. If you're curious about how it works or looking for a relaxing game to play, you can check it out.

[knottyb0y]

DnD neckbeards who spent hours around a table now can do they same thing but never leave their basement.

While I think they nailed a lot of things, for a game with quest in its name, I spent way more time camping than questing. You would think that many of the items you would get would be done by questing for it like they did with Sol Ro Armor. The game technically was an open beta for a while IMO

The REAL quests is the ones you set for yourself "I want to complete this epic, or get this level, or this item, or go to this zone and fight this creature."

If you look at it that way the quest is eternal.

[Evia]

The REAL quests is the ones you set for yourself "I want to complete this epic, or get this level, or this item, or go to this zone and fight this creature."

If you look at it that way the quest is eternal.

Congratulations you've discovered the meaning behind the name of the game.

[Naethyn]

Monsters & Memories is hitting all the right notes.

[Zendir]

I'd say the biggest reason EQ stands out is that the developers didn't just remove and nerf all the mechanics in the game when players figured out all the many many MANY tricks that devs didn't intend to happen. Split pulling with feign death when FD was just a skill meant to prevent a monk from death in a bad spot, it became much more than it's initial design. Same with kiting, fear kiting, swarm kiting, you name it, all things that players sussed out that while sometimes devs would tone something down if it was way out of hand, they rolled with the blue prints the players came up with.
Not only did they carve out more mechanics for the stuff players figured out but instead of just nerfing, removing, streamlining and turning the game into modern MMO rotation/script slop they would also use the power of itemization as a much more rewarding manner of steering the players into new roles that weren't there before. by using items and developing around players learning new exploits / tricks / weird behaviors in the game, they managed to keep players engaged trying to figure out new shit. How many raid strategies are possible for alot of the old shit? people who raided in the past wouldn't even recognize the raid scene (even before all the "enhancements") because we evolved raid strategy using unconventional strats to get to mobs of choice in premium time due to racing. How many modern mmo shitslops have raids that people can adapt to in a way that the devs didn't intend but its allowed? can't think of any.

Sandbox >>>> Instanced conveyor belt roboraids (and their uninspired itemizations)


Its the devs of the emu servers that now nerf out the tricks that classes use to be OP.

[Rygar]

Love the game for sure. Do wish more worthwhile quests were implemented. Didn't like that kunark vastly increased melee dps weapon ratios. Melee too overpowered in late game/grouping, needed balance.

Would have liked to see more curse weapons, such as great ratios but they can proc 500dd on you, dispell buffs, etc.


Never liked that all weapon types were equal. Would have been great if certain creatures were affected more by blunt weapons but had additional mitigation to slash/pierce. Would have been big opportunity to favor non lazy melee who swapped during fights.

[Jimjam]

Playing PQ the pets absolutely blow melee and wizards out the water (though I’m not sure how close to classic the pq/takp interaction of pets and NOCs actually is). I can kinda see why VI improved weapons, but I agree the jump feels too much.


I vaguely remember blunts being better against skeletons … was that an old dnd thing? Does modern dnd still have that kind of thing.

[Evia]

daoc had the system with blunt, pierce, slash all getting + or - bonuses vs certain armor types. it was one of the bright spots of the game as well as melee attack abilities! coming from eq's 'auto-attack for 60 lvls' it was refreshing. although i dont think daoc aged as well as eq did.

[aussenseiter]

On rolemaster that's called AvD and you can electrocute plate armor wearers easily.

[aussenseiter]

I vaguely remember blunts being better against skeletons … was that an old dnd thing? Does modern dnd still have that kind of thing.

To answer your question, this is from the Baldur's Gate EE manual, which I think is 3rd edition, and the retro EE sequels are 3.5 edition.

https://i.imgur.com/Z0u90fy.png

[aussenseiter]

https://i.imgur.com/8nlkRZz.png

[maxtorps]

It had to be luck right? Or was Brad a genius?

They were basically just ripping of DnD and MUDs. But so many other mmorpgs sucked ass.

They had a passion for the game that wasn't unduly affected by the efforts of marketing to wring every last drop of money from customers until later. So you had no microtransactions, no pay to win, no easy paths (so called QoL) to attract a wider, perhaps more needy audience.

Instead, you had a rich variety of landscapes, mobs and lore. An emphasis on the social aspect of the game by introducing slowdown points so that players could genuinely make friends.

[Jimjam]

There was recently some 25th anniversary stuff out about Valve / Halflife, contemporary to EverQuest. I wondered how similar the design and development process was. Another game of similar vintage was Pocket Monsters / Pokémon which seemed to have a similar development workflow to Halflife.

These games had these huge well thought out worlds in which games happened with a focus put on fun and the psychology of the game. Were they just of that era? I don’t know, but there just seemed to be so much scope and magic in the games of the late 90s.

[knottyb0y]

They had a passion for the game that wasn't unduly affected by the efforts of marketing to wring every last drop of money from customers until later. So you had no microtransactions, no pay to win, no easy paths (so called QoL) to attract a wider, perhaps more needy audience.

Instead, you had a rich variety of landscapes, mobs and lore. An emphasis on the social aspect of the game by introducing slowdown points so that players could genuinely make friends.

This!

You can tell EQ was a passion project. Still, even back then the subscription model proved to be VERY lucrative. I often miss the days of no micro transactions in games.

[magnetaress]

Modern games are gambling simulators designed like those mobile games where u gamble for credits. Designed not to simulate a world and tell a story. They are designed to put you in a skinner box and milk you for "points", points u can usually get through purchasing other points.

Sadly this is a failing of the human species and it isn't just games that do this. Until there is an evolution of our brains and a successful revolution and renaissance. Things won't change much, just be greatful one of projects and art exists every few decades.

[branamil]

It had to be luck right? Or was Brad a genius?

They were basically just ripping of DnD and MUDs. But so many other mmorpgs sucked ass.

I mean objectively they didn't get very much right as it's not very popular right now. Many other old games are way more popular. How did they get so much right for its time, until other games did it better? They were just one of the first RPG games to do a 3D world. That was really the only innovative thing they did. Everything else was a direct ripoff of pre existing fantasy lore and DnD mechanics.

[Evia]

I mean objectively they didn't get very much right as it's not very popular right now. Many other old games are way more popular. How did they get so much right for its time, until other games did it better? They were just one of the first RPG games to do a 3D world. That was really the only innovative thing they did. Everything else was a direct ripoff of pre existing fantasy lore and DnD mechanics.

I think it's kind of sad that you equate 'getting it right' with 'being popular' as those are not at all the same.

EQ1 was a stepping stone to the next step of pc online rpg games, and it was a huge step. World of Warcraft took what EQ1 did and took another giant step. So of course very few people want to go back multiple steps behind the current MMORPG landscape and play EQ1 when so many new features have been introduced in modern games.

but to just say EQ1 wasnt good just because it's not currently popular is a laughably disingenuous take.

[aussenseiter]

They're gr-r-reat! (https://wiki.project1999.com/Eenot)

https://wiki.project1999.com/images/Npc_eenot.png

[branamil]

I think it's kind of sad that you equate 'getting it right' with 'being popular' as those are not at all the same.

EQ1 was a stepping stone to the next step of pc online rpg games, and it was a huge step. World of Warcraft took what EQ1 did and took another giant step. So of course very few people want to go back multiple steps behind the current MMORPG landscape and play EQ1 when so many new features have been introduced in modern games.

but to just say EQ1 wasnt good just because it's not currently popular is a laughably disingenuous take.

There is no other measure of getting it right other than market appeal. If you use any other metric then it's just your personal opinion. You also don't know what the definition of disingenuous is.

[Evia]

There is no other measure of getting it right other than market appeal. If you use any other metric then it's just your personal opinion. You also don't know what the definition of disingenuous is.

Oh man the irony of this comment. You gotta be trolling.

[Ciderpress]

There is no other measure of getting it right other than market appeal. If you use any other metric then it's just your personal opinion. You also don't know what the definition of disingenuous is.

Lol this is like babby's first foray into the concept of subjectivity in art.

If you figure out how to min\max your exploitation of modern tech and the brain's reward system so that a bunch of whales play your crappy game, it's still a crappy game.

There's a reason p99 exists. There's a reason so many people still play diablo 2, nobody cares about diablo 3, and diablo 4 is another battlepass microtransaction hellworld that everyone will also soon forget. I have my doubts that in 2050 there's gonna be "Project 2023" where you get to relive the magic of vanilla diablo 4!

See, many people have an aversion to the modern model because it's a shit model and everyone hates it but whales, is the thing.

[Ciderpress]

I think a specific challenge that classic EQ\p99 faces when it comes to attracting new players is that it was developed during an ugly (literally) period of gaming where transitioning from sprite\rasterized art to polygonal\true arbitrary 3d was all the rage, so by today's standards it doesn't just look bad graphically, it looks *really* bad, in a way that older games don't. But when it came out, every cutting edge game was full 3d with chonky blurry polygonal characters so nobody really noticed or cared.

It says nothing about the value of it's core gameplay mechanics.

[zelld52]

Lol this is like babby's first foray into the concept of subjectivity in art.

If you figure out how to min\max your exploitation of modern tech and the brain's reward system so that a bunch of whales play your crappy game, it's still a crappy game.

There's a reason p99 exists. There's a reason so many people still play diablo 2, nobody cares about diablo 3, and diablo 4 is another battlepass microtransaction hellworld that everyone will also soon forget. I have my doubts that in 2050 there's gonna be "Project 2023" where you get to relive the magic of vanilla diablo 4!

See, many people have an aversion to the modern model because it's a shit model and everyone hates it but whales, is the thing.

Younger generations don’t know what the “old way” is like. They like what they grew up with. For us it was EQ

But to say “many people” is a vague overstatement. In the grand scheme of MMO players, p99 has a whole few thousand. With at most maybe 1500 concurrent. Across all classic MMOs? It’s the same demographic. 40 year old men and their families/children who played with them back when

[Ciderpress]

Younger generations don’t know what the “old way” is like. They like what they grew up with. For us it was EQ

But to say “many people” is a vague overstatement. In the grand scheme of MMO players, p99 has a whole few thousand. With at most maybe 1500 concurrent. Across all classic MMOs? It’s the same demographic. 40 year old men and their families/children who played with them back when

Haha well okay I guess let's just never try to compare games accross time because kids like what they like etc? Only relevant metric is market share, and it doesn't even matter cause kids?

Maybe you didn't read my point about the diablo franchise: Diablo 1 is remembered fondly but nobody plays it, diablo 2 was hugely successful and tons of people still play it to the point where there are still paid tournaments for it, nobody plays diablo 3 and I literally forgot it exists, and diablo 4 which only just launched saw it's active players plummet within a couple months. This seems to contradict the notion that everyone just likes what they grew up with.

The whole premise of this thread is "what is so inexplicably addicting about this game?" and then people kramer in with "actually nothing beep boop the market" haha.

[aussenseiter]

Haha well okay I guess let's just never try to compare games accross time because kids like what they like etc? Only relevant metric is market share, and it doesn't even matter cause kids?

Maybe you didn't read my point about the diablo franchise: Diablo 1 is remembered fondly but nobody plays it, diablo 2 was hugely successful and tons of people still play it to the point where there are still paid tournaments for it, nobody plays diablo 3 and I literally forgot it exists, and diablo 4 which only just launched saw it's active players plummet within a couple months. This seems to contradict the notion that everyone just likes what they grew up with.

The whole premise of this thread is "what is so inexplicably addicting about this game?" and then people kramer in with "actually nothing beep boop the market" haha.

The rats like electric shocks better than they like treats.

🐭

[branamil]

Lol this is like babby's first foray into the concept of subjectivity in art.

If you figure out how to min\max your exploitation of modern tech and the brain's reward system so that a bunch of whales play your crappy game, it's still a crappy game.

There's a reason p99 exists. There's a reason so many people still play diablo 2, nobody cares about diablo 3, and diablo 4 is another battlepass microtransaction hellworld that everyone will also soon forget. I have my doubts that in 2050 there's gonna be "Project 2023" where you get to relive the magic of vanilla diablo 4!

See, many people have an aversion to the modern model because it's a shit model and everyone hates it but whales, is the thing.


If you had two neurons to rub together you'd realize you're proving my point. You said the fact that p99 exists and some people remember it fondly is all the evidence you need. In reality it's played by less than a thousand fat middle aged fucks at most plus their bots. Whereas most games have millions and tens of millions of players. If p99 costed money there'd be even less and probably 0 enthusiasts.

[aussenseiter]

If you had two neurons to rub together you'd realize you're proving my point. You said the fact that p99 exists and some people remember it fondly is all the evidence you need. In reality it's played by less than a thousand fat middle aged fucks at most plus their bots. Whereas most games have millions and tens of millions of players. If p99 costed money there'd be even less and probably 0 enthusiasts.

Why are they 'fucks'? Is everyone a 'fuck'?

[aaezil]

There is no other measure of getting it right other than market appeal. If you use any other metric then it's just your personal opinion. You also don't know what the definition of disingenuous is.

Whats popular is often dogwater. See: music, film, video game, fashion, food, literally anything consumerized to hell.

[A Knight]

I'd play diablo 1, but the CD doesn't work. Even though its not scratched at all.