sk starting points

[abysalwhip2008]

Hey guys tonight I sat at the character creation screen for almost an hour trying to come up with a name for my new shadow knight well lets just say im going to try it again tomorrow after work. I am going to roll an iksar sk the question I have is where should I put my 20 starting points into. wiki says 10 str and 10 int just wanted to check here incase that info is outdated. I got a 60 monk and druid on server so I will have access to all or most of group content gear at level 1. Any input would be greatly appreciated. yes, im aware of the inate racial stat bonuses ogres and trolls have but Im a man of fun and lore and I really want to experience the green mist quest :)

[Crede]

Sta if you’re just grouping/raiding.
Int if ya wanna min max.
dex for casual greenmist procs.

Int will serve you the best overall imo.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As Crede says, INT is the best stat for SK's on character creation. STR and STA are quite common on Velious era gear, but INT is less common on tank gear.

[Lune]

Int is just max mana though, and minimally relevant for most SK content where mana regen is the limiter. I'd hesitatingly recommend it for trolls and ogres maybe.

For an iksar, str or stamina is probably going to be more efficacious in the likely massive amount of time between being a fresh, twinked level 1 and actually capping those stats without buffs. Go int though if you're able to cap or close to cap with the gear available.

[ScottBerta]

Dex is a good option too

[Sizar]

Dex is a weak ass option too

fixed

[fortior]

I would go stamina and get yourself a crown of narandi, int is just max mana and sustain is more important. Theoretically you will cap stamina but even a full time raiding main will take multiple years to do so

[ya.dingus]

Max int all the way. Not even a tough decision. Youll see more long term use out of that than the extra 150hp youll have (without buffs, with buffs youll cap anyway).

Youll never max your int with buffs and bis. The rest of your relevant stats you will.

[Troxx]

Put it all into wisdom!

[Crede]

Max int all the way. Not even a tough decision. Youll see more long term use out of that than the extra 150hp youll have (without buffs, with buffs youll cap anyway).

Youll never max your int with buffs and bis. The rest of your relevant stats you will.

This. I regretted going STA on my troll sk.

[Stroboo]

Strength

Strength directly effects your dps immediately and throughout your entire leveling experience. p99 eq is trivial, raid min/max is silly (my opinions), str helps immediately.

[Toxigen]

INT only if you're taking this char all the way, total mana pool means basically nothing unless you're doing some big solo artist stuff and need every last bit

STR gets my vote for the OP - seems like he wants to just mess around and do greenmist...you'll be benefiting from STR the entire time and if you happen to reach 60 and get raid gear your starting stats won't matter anyway

[DeathsSilkyMist]

INT only if you're taking this char all the way, total mana pool means basically nothing unless you're doing some big solo artist stuff and need every last bit

STR gets my vote for the OP - seems like he wants to just mess around and do greenmist...you'll be benefiting from STR the entire time and if you happen to reach 60 and get raid gear your starting stats won't matter anyway

Total mana pool is still useful while leveling. Feign Death costs mana. Having extra mana means you can spend more mana before you get down to your last 200 or so, which you would want to save for Feign Death attempts. Since OP is going Iksar, they are also using more mana because they won't have access to Blood Ember Clickies.

STR is really easy to get with EC gear. If this was OP's first character, or an SSF character, STR would be a good option. OP has multiple level 60 characters, so they aren't going to be hurting for cash. INT is still better for OP.

[Lune]

Total mana pool is still useful while leveling. Feign Death costs mana. Having extra mana means you can spend more mana before you get down to your last 200 or so, which you would want to save for Feign Death attempts. Since OP is going Iksar, they are also using more mana because they won't have access to Blood Ember Clickies.

STR is really easy to get with EC gear. If this was OP's first character, or an SSF character, STR would be a good option. OP has multiple level 60 characters, so they aren't going to be hurting for cash. INT is still better for OP.

If you're soloing something that takes your entire mana bar while leveling you're doing it wrong, and max mana is only going to come into play during leveling in fringe cases. Strength/STA is going to help an iksar all day every day until the very tip top raid gear that, statistically, OP will never see. I doubt he's going to be capping those stats on an iksar with droppables.

Again, INT does absolutely nothing to help with the fact that OP is going to be using more mana unless he's spiking from 100 to 0 which should be quite rare

Like, 90% chance this dude just ends up being a lvl 41 iksar SK with 142 STR, 158 STA, and all his points in INT lol. Long, long ago somebody compiled a distribution of all the classes at various levels over a long period of time. Something like 80% of all hybrids abandoned their class in the 40's/low 50's, far higher than other classes. When the reality of what the class is sets in, and the breezy leveling experience tapers off, very few stick with it. Meanwhile he's gonna be encumbered all day and killing more slowly because he went INT for the very specific situation of being 60, raid buffed, and raid geared. Cmon

Go int on ogres/trolls, not iksar unless maybe you're specifically leveling the class for high end raiding-- in which case, what are you thinking being an iksar?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you're soloing something that takes your entire mana bar while leveling you're doing it wrong, and max mana is only going to come into play during leveling in fringe cases. Strength/STA is going to help an iksar all day every day until the very tip top raid gear that, statistically, OP will never see. I doubt he's going to be capping those stats on an iksar with droppables.

Again, INT does absolutely nothing to help with the fact that OP is going to be using more mana unless he's spiking from 100 to 0 which should be quite rare

Like, 90% chance this dude just ends up being a lvl 41 iksar SK with 142 STR, 158 STA, and all his points in INT lol. Long, long ago somebody compiled a distribution of all the classes at various levels over a long period of time. Something like 80% of all hybrids abandoned their class in the 40's/low 50's, far higher than other classes. When the reality of what the class is sets in, and the breezy leveling experience tapers off, very few stick with it. Meanwhile he's gonna be encumbered all day and killing more slowly because he went INT for the very specific situation of being 60, raid buffed, and raid geared. Cmon

The problem with this kind of thinking is you don't take into account the simple fact that people can change their minds about a character after creation. Generally speaking if you care about starting stats (which should be the assumption since OP is asking about them), you should always think about the long term, not the short term.

For the long term, put your points into INT because it will help you at all levels, including level 60 with BiS gear.

STR is very easy to get with EC gear. There is no reason to assume OP cannot get more than enough STR for carrying everything and doing good DPS when they have multiple level 60 characters. Having 140+ STR as a level 41 Iksar SK is already good enough. That plus Shralok Packs will allow you to carry everything you need, while having good DPS.

I am really not sure where people got the idea that you need to have 200+ STR while leveling to thrive. This simply isn't true.

[Troxx]

If you're soloing something that takes your entire mana bar while leveling you're doing it wrong

This.

As usual, Toxigen hit the nail on the head.

[Toxigen]

This.

As usual, Toxigen hit the nail on the head.

Was going to say the same thing but for Lune's post. He's spot on.

Good to have ya back, bub! We needed another level-headed poster to shed some light on DSM's paper napkin math bullshit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This.

As usual, Toxigen hit the nail on the head.

When you are soloing, your mana bar slowly depletes per kill. Once you get low, you need to spend time meditating. Max mana helps increase the number of kills you can do between meditation breaks. It also hedges against fizzles when you are low mana and potentially needing to FD.

OP isn't going to have access to Blood Ember Clickies as an Iksar, so mana is even more important to them. Iksars have the least amount of ways to save mana.

INT is the best choice for SKs as a starting stat in Velious, where STR and STA are common on cheap gear.


Good to have ya back, bub! We needed another level-headed poster to shed some light on DSM's paper napkin math bullshit.

Troxx spent 100s of pages posting silly gifs as "evidence". "Level headed poster" is a pretty generous title for him. I'll take actual evidence via math on a game based upon math any day over silly gifs.

Your posts are also generally just trolling, so I am not sure why you think you have any upper hand here.

[Troxx]

When you are soloing, your mana bar slowly depletes per kill. Once you get low, you need to spend time meditating.

Fascinating! I had no idea this game worked like that!

How about:

When you are soloing, the higher your strength the faster you kill. The faster you kill the less mana it takes to get a kill. The less mana you use, the less time you have to sit on your ass getting mana back.

Or how about:

The more strength you have the more loot/coin you can carry before making a bank and vendor run. The less you have to make that run the more time you can spend killing and otherwise enjoying the game.

I’m a wizard, Harry.

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/WUVqyY-KBbAAAAAd/your-a-wizard-harry.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fascinating! I had no idea this game worked like that!

How about:

When you are soloing, the higher your strength the faster you kill. The faster you kill the less mana it takes to get a kill. The less mana you use, the less time you have to sit on your ass getting mana back.

Or how about:

The more strength you have the more loot/coin you can carry before making a bank and vendor run. The less you have to make that run the more time you can spend killing and otherwise enjoying the game.

I’m a wizard, Harry.

If you have played an SK at all, you would know the bottleneck for them is mana. The majority of your DPS is coming from your haste item and weapon when it comes to white damage, not 20 points into STR as your starting stats. You will need to show a significant DPS difference on an SK with 140 STR vs. 160 STR.

If you have leveled up a character, you would know that you don't need 200+ STR to carry multiple bags of FS weapons and coin. You can buy cheap WR bags such as https://wiki.project1999.com/Bag_of_Sewn_Evil-Eye , https://wiki.project1999.com/Large_Soiled_Bag , and https://wiki.project1999.com/Shralok_Pack . OP has multiple level 60 characters, this shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for posting another silly gif. It simply shows you are a troll, and shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Troxx]

If I had leveled up a character? Pretty sure I’ve leveled quite a few.

You are correct that most of your damage comes from your weapon and haste. I am glad we have found a thing to agree upon!

Are you not aware that your strength directly plays into that equation specifically regarding how much damage your hasted weapon does? It’s part of the napkin math man.

You of all should be able to appreciate napkin math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If I had leveled up a character? Pretty sure I’ve leveled quite a few.

You are correct that most of your damage comes from your weapon and haste. I am glad we have found a thing to agree upon!

Are you not aware that your strength directly plays into that equation specifically regarding how much damage your hasted weapon does? It’s part of the napkin math man.

You of all should be able to appreciate napkin math.

If you agree that most of your damage comes from your weapon and haste, then you would need to show that +20 STR is giving OP enough of a DPS boost to overcome the extra mana you are receiving from INT.

You are making the claim that +20 STR is going to do this, so you need to prove it. As per usual, you are trying to get other people to prove the claims you are making.

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/6MazTYjQuZgAAAAC/evidence-shia-labeouf.gif

[Lune]

When you are soloing, your mana bar slowly depletes per kill. Once you get low, you need to spend time meditating. Max mana helps increase the number of kills you can do between meditation breaks.

And then he'll spend longer meditating all his mana back, either AFK or present. Pointless.

STR is common on EC items but he's still not going to cap it with droppables, so I'm not really sure what your point is there. Bringing strength from 156 to 166 has the same utility as bringing strength from 86 to 96; he's going to kill faster 100% of the time, end fights more quickly, and SUSTAIN mana that way. Sustain is orders of magnitude more valuable than max.

Same goes for STA, all you say about INT applies to stamina with regard to # of mobs you can kill between breaks and utility during emergencies, with the added bonus of max hp being far more useful for an SK than max mana.

If you have played an SK at all, you would know the bottleneck for them is mana.

What lol

Maybe at 60 when soloing tough mobs, but the odds are pretty stacked against OP on that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And then he'll spend longer meditating all his mana back, either AFK or present. Pointless.

STR is common on EC items but he's still not going to cap it with droppables, so I'm not really sure what your point is there. Bringing strength from 156 to 166 has the same utility as bringing strength from 86 to 96; he's going to kill faster 100% of the time, end fights more quickly, and SUSTAIN mana that way. Sustain is orders of magnitude more valuable than max.

Same goes for STA, all you say about INT applies to stamina with regard to # of mobs you can kill between breaks and utility during emergencies, with the added bonus of max hp being far more useful for an SK than max mana.

My point is simple. You don't need to cap STR to be successful when leveling.

If you want to make the claim that +20 STR gives an SK a significant DPS boost while leveling, you need to show that.

STA and STR are factually easier to cap. This can be shown via Magelo, and looking at available buffs. Put your points into the harder stat to cap (INT), because you get more benefit from an uncapped stat over a longer period of time.

OP has multiple level 60s. Unless they decide to make a self found character, twink items will outweigh the benefits from starting stats during the leveling process.


What lol

Maybe at 60 when soloing tough mobs, but the odds are pretty stacked against OP on that.

Of course mana is the bottleneck for SK's. When you are soloing, an SK's primary tool is fear kiting. You are spending mana to not take damage. An SK is MUCH slower at killing things if they simply face tank. If you fear kite correctly, you will run out of mana long before HP. You can fear kite starting at level 15, so I am not sure why you think it is restricted to level 60s.

If you are talking about grouping, +20 STR is doing even less than when you are soloing. You get less loot since it is shared across the group, and an SK is not a DPS class in a group, they are a tank.

[Troxx]

Starting strength on an iksar sk is 80. Yikes!
Starting intelligence on an iksar sk is 85.

If this guy were rolling an ogre or troll my advice would be different.

[Ripqozko]

My point is simple. You don't need to cap STR to be successful when leveling.

If you want to make the claim that +20 STR gives an SK a significant DPS boost while leveling, you need to show that.

STA and STR are factually easier to cap. This can be shown via Magelo, and looking at available buffs. Put your points into the harder stat to cap (INT), because you get more benefit from an uncapped stat over a longer period of time.

OP has multiple level 60s. Unless they decide to make a self found character, twink items will outweigh the benefits from starting stats during the leveling process.



Of course it is. When you are soloing, an SK's primary tool is fear kiting. You are spending mana to not take damage. An SK is MUCH slower at killing things if they simply face tank. If you fear kite correctly, you will run out of mana long before HP. You can fear kite starting at level 15, so I am not sure why you think it is restricted to level 60s.

If you are talking about grouping, +20 STR is doing even less than when you are soloing. You get less loot since it is shared across the group, and an SK is not a DPS class in a group, they are a tank.

Depends on race my gear is quite good and I'm still 4 points short on stamina. Even more if I use 1h instead of tuna sword for tanking. Not everyone wants to be an ugly ogre/troll.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Starting strength on an iksar sk is 80. Yikes!
Starting intelligence on an iksar sk is 85.

If this guy were rolling an ogre or troll my advice would be different.

My Gnome Warrior has 140+ STR with EC gear, and I didn't even focus on STR when picking his gear. This is without any Warrior specific clickie buffs. Gnome Warriors start with 60 STR. The reality is tank gear in Velious simply has a lot of STR on it, and you don't need 200+ STR to level.

Depends on race my gear is quite good and I'm still 4 points short on stamina. Even more if I use 1h instead of tuna sword for tanking. Not everyone wants to be an ugly ogre/troll.

4 points on STA is 21 HP on an SK.

I'll take 100+ mana over 21 HP any day of the week on an SK.

[Ripqozko]

My Gnome Warrior has 140+ STR with EC gear, and I didn't even focus on STR when picking his gear. This is without any Warrior specific clickie buffs. Gnome Warriors start with 60 STR. The reality is tank gear in Velious simply has a lot of STR on it, and you don't need 200+ STR to level.

I mean specifically stamina. That's with me using sta on start still 4 short until bracer upgrade as a DE.

[Ripqozko]

My Gnome Warrior has 140+ STR with EC gear, and I didn't even focus on STR when picking his gear. This is without any Warrior specific clickie buffs. Gnome Warriors start with 60 STR. The reality is tank gear in Velious simply has a lot of STR on it, and you don't need 200+ STR to level.


I wouldn't, 21 hp may make you survive your mana is pointless dead.
4 points on STA is 21 HP.

I'll take 100+ mana over 21 HP any day of the week.

I wouldn't, 21 hp may save you

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I wouldn't, 21 hp may save you

So could 100 mana. Life taps recover more than 21 HP, and FD will stop you from taking damage. Remember than SK FD costs mana, unless you are using BE Greaves.

If you are talking about raiding specifically, you can cap STA with any race in raid gear + buffs, so it doesn't really matter.

[Ripqozko]

So could 100 mana. Life taps recover more than 21 HP, and FD will stop you from taking damage. Remember than SK FD costs mana, unless you are using BE Greaves.

If you are talking about raiding specifically, you can cap STA with any race in raid gear + buffs, so it doesn't really matter.

I'm not FDing while tanking trash in tov

[Troxx]

and you don't need 200+ STR to level.

Nor does a sk need 20 extra intelligence to level …

(or ever really need it at all for all for that matter)

[Ripqozko]

So could 100 mana. Life taps recover more than 21 HP, and FD will stop you from taking damage. Remember than SK FD costs mana, unless you are using BE Greaves.

If you are talking about raiding specifically, you can cap STA with any race in raid gear + buffs, so it doesn't really matter.

That's false I'm 4 sta short and almost full raid gear, missing 3 pieces

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not FDing while tanking trash in tov

If you are tanking trash in ToV, you can simply get better gear to cap STA. All SK races can cap STA with Riotous Health + Raid Gear.

[Ripqozko]

If you are tanking trash in ToV, you can simply get better gear to cap STA. All SK races can cap STA with Riotous Health + Raid Gear.

My gear is really good I don't cap with buffs


https://ibb.co/d2SmKfJ

I can magelo later If you want, there's not a ton of upgrades in there

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's false I'm 4 sta short and almost full raid gear, missing 3 pieces

My gear is really good I don't cap with buffs


https://ibb.co/d2SmKfJ

I can magelo later If you want, there's not a ton of upgrades in there

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan - This is an example I made of an Erudite with BiS raid gear. They are capping on STR and STA without buffs. But the Erudite has not capped on INT, even when they are the highest INT SK in the game.

[Crede]

Sta if you’re just grouping/raiding.
Int if ya wanna min max.
dex for casual greenmist procs.

Int will serve you the best overall imo.

INT is a lot more powerful than STR for reducing downtime for SKs. Fear kiting taking no hits is much more efficient than trying to kill something faster with a little more STR. And the extra 200 mana you get from 20 INT eventually paired with mana regen can help you go longer in full 100-0 mana sessions & solo artist stuff where you are blowing your entire mana pool. Sure you have to med longer but nobody is really advocating for lower INT to lower MED times. Just afk longer and be more productive irl.

STA is fine if you just want to group tank & raid tank stuff as I mentioned before. And dex will be fun for greenmist procs.

I've leveled 4 SKs. Eventually I will do the last 2 races.

The answer is INT.

[Ripqozko]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan - This is an example I made of an Erudite with BiS raid gear. They are capping on STA without buffs.

With BiS, you know as well as me that takes long time, sta gonna help you for long time I'm in mostly 2nd/3rd bis and some bis like tuna sword and brain.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

With BiS, you know as well as me that takes long time, sta gonna help you for long time I'm in mostly 2nd/3rd bis and some bis like tuna sword and brain.

You have great gear for sure! But you will cap STA with one upgrade. You could do this with an Arms upgrade (Vulak Arms), an Earring Upgrade (Vulak or Doze), a glove upgrade (City Leader Gloves or Vulak Gloves), etc.

I understand BiS takes a long time to get. But if you are really worried about stats, you should roll an Ogre/Troll instead. Nobody is forcing you to roll a low stat character. Clearly you did just fine as a Dark Elf with lower STA. I doubt your guild is going to kick you for -21 HP.

[Ripqozko]

You have great gear for sure! But you will cap STA with one upgrade. You could do this with an Arms upgrade (Vulak Arms), an Earring Upgrade (Vulak or Doze), a glove upgrade (City Leader Gloves or Vulak Gloves), etc.

I understand BiS takes a long time to get. But if you are really worried about stats, you should roll an Ogre/Troll instead. Nobody is forcing you to roll a low stat character. Clearly you did just fine as a Dark Elf with lower STA. I doubt your guild is going to kick you for -21 HP.

That is ltk gloves it has sta, belt is nev for haste

[Ripqozko]

You have great gear for sure! But you will cap STA with one upgrade. You could do this with an Arms upgrade (Vulak Arms), an Earring Upgrade (Vulak or Doze), a glove upgrade (City Leader Gloves or Vulak Gloves), etc.

I understand BiS takes a long time to get. But if you are really worried about stats, you should roll an Ogre/Troll instead. Nobody is forcing you to roll a low stat character. Clearly you did just fine as a Dark Elf with lower STA. I doubt your guild is going to kick you for -21 HP.

Some us do care to not look like ass

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That is ltk gloves it has sta, belt is nev for haste

Ah you are correct there, my bad. I thought https://wiki.project1999.com/Gauntlets_of_Dragon_Slaying had STA on it for some reason.

Some us do care to not look like ass

There is always Shroud of Undeath. Skeletons look cool!

[Ripqozko]

Ah you are correct there, my bad. I thought https://wiki.project1999.com/Gauntlets_of_Dragon_Slaying had STA on it for some reason.



There is always Shroud of Undeath. Skeletons look cool!

I'm just saying sta isn't as easy as you make it seem to cap , less you go ugly or get raw sta items that are worse.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm just saying sta isn't as easy as you make it seem to cap , less you go ugly or get raw sta items that are worse.

I do agree with you BiS is hard to get. But OP is going to have access to lifetap in most scenarios, and the max mana from INT is going to supply you with more HP than the extra STA would via lifetaps.

104 HP from 20 STA has a very small percentage chance to save you on raid targets, and no guild is going to prevent you from tanking because of 104 HP. Often times you are going to be swapping to a Cleric or something anyway if you are an SK main.

[Ripqozko]

I do agree with you BiS is hard to get. But OP is going to have access to lifetap in most scenarios, and the max mana from INT is going to supply you with more HP than the extra STA would via lifetaps.

104 HP from 20 STA has a very small percentage chance to save you on raid targets, and no guild is going to prevent you from tanking because of 104 HP. Often times you are going to be swapping to a Cleric or something anyway if you are an SK main.

Nah we use knights quite a bit for clears and kunark, we don't want them swapping. Mana won't help you dead.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah we use knights quite a bit for clears and kunark, we don't want them swapping. Mana won't help you dead.

275/255 STA won't help you either:) That will give you 0 HP. You can simply get better gear if you are worried about your max HP pool, or pick a better starting race.

[Ripqozko]

275/255 STA won't help you either:) That will give you 0 HP. You can simply get better gear if you are worried about your max HP pool, or pick a better starting race.

You do you I guess, you never change ya mind. Sorry kittens.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You do you I guess, you never change ya mind. Sorry kittens.

You are also not changing your mind here. We are simply at an impasse. I can also say you are unwilling to change your mind.

The difference is I can show that you can cap STA easer than INT, which means my position is stronger. It is also factually true that you can pick a higher STA race if you want better stats.

Whether or not you want to admit it, you know that 21 HP is not going to give you a significant leg up over another SK when it comes to tanking raid mobs. Anybody who has been raiding for years will understand this.

[Lune]

The difference is you simply have no idea what you are talking about and are using end-game raiding, assumption that max mana automatically translates into an extra lifetap for survivability (never mind better complete heals, and that if he doesnt need to spend that mana on a lifetap he can use it for more efficient applications), and other edge cases to make the case for allocating INT on an iksar SK that is almost certainly never going to see the utility of that decision.

Buddy you seem to get tangled in the weeds a bit too easily with the edge cases and misunderstanding of the relative utility of mana. We figured this one out years ago.

[Troxx]

My 60 alt paladin has a pathetic mana pool of 1600 and a wisdom of only 107. Other than a ToV weapon he saved from rot, he is slum geared. I can’t think of any situation I’ve ever been in where 20 more wisdom would have been a game changer. I’ve still managed to tank Kunark raid targets with him, tank ToV trash clears, and done every difficult group encounter I can think of as a tank without breaking a sweat.

If a knight is consistently in a position where they are running so out of mana that a pool 20 int/wis worth would provide a game changing benefit, they and those they are with are doing something terribly wrong.

Even then, that extra mana pool is only good until you use it.

Having a Narandi crown, shawl, and mind buffs is really the only thing that counts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The difference is you simply have no idea what you are talking about and are using end-game raiding, assumption that max mana automatically translates into an extra lifetap for survivability (never mind better complete heals, and that if he doesnt need to spend that mana on a lifetap he can use it for more efficient applications), and other edge cases to make the case for allocating INT on an iksar SK that is almost certainly never going to see the utility of that decision.

Buddy you seem to get tangled in the weeds a bit too easily with the edge cases and misunderstanding of the relative utility of mana. We figured this one out years ago.

The problem here is you simply assume that saying "you don't know what you are talking about" is a valid argument. It isn't.

I can back up my arguments with facts, while you haven't.

When comparing INT to STA, you can see how much you get from both. STA gives you 104 HP at 60, and INT gives you roughly 220 mana under 200 INT.

A level 30 SK is getting 52 HP from the STA, and roughly 110 mana from the INT. 110 mana translates to 56 HP via one Lifedraw + Life Spike, and you still have 20+ mana. Statistically the INT is helping you more while leveling.

INT is factually harder to cap once you hit 60 compared to STA and STR.

I can show you the tangible benefits at all level ranges.

[Crede]

My 60 alt paladin has a pathetic mana pool of 1600 and a wisdom of only 107. Other than a ToV weapon he saved from rot, he is slum geared. I can’t think of any situation I’ve ever been in where 20 more wisdom would have been a game changer. I’ve still managed to tank Kunark raid targets with him, tank ToV trash clears, and done every difficult group encounter I can think of as a tank without breaking a sweat.

If a knight is consistently in a position where they are running so out of mana that a pool 20 int/wis worth would provide a game changing benefit, they and those they are with are doing something terribly wrong.

Even then, that extra mana pool is only good until you use it.

Having a Narandi crown, shawl, and mind buffs is really the only thing that counts.

I used to think this was true. Mana regen or bust, ignore max mana. But I didn't find it to be true when playing my SK.

With about 2k mana my troll could usually go at around 90 minutes before needing a med break. This is because you're balancing health with mana utilizing regen, epic procs, clickies, fear kiting etc. SKs are all about the balancing act.

Having another 200 mana would have let me go another 10 minutes or so without needing a med break. I find that to be pretty significant. I went STA and it literally did nothing for me. I'd regen that in between pulls so it really didn't change my killing power. STA is all about cheal chains and having a little more aoe survivability. Which for tanking group/raid stuff is good as I mentioned. But most SKs like to solo a lot, the class is designed perfectly to do so. And I just found little use for Stamina.

[Snaggles]

Situations where you cycle aggro spells on cooldown for you don’t need much mana. Stunt kills and some raids hits with AoE’s its definitely helpful. Drain soul more or less is a wort pot and people do carry those.

I’m a firm believer starting points can’t make or break a character. You can be less optimized depending on definitions and goals but not like in the normal sense where you are better off starting over. SK’s have a massive stat and perk spread from littles to fatties and people still argue 20+ years later about what is best.

High high end as a raider I’d say a notable Hp pool, maxed Str with focus, and a ton of mana are likely preferred. This is a game of long repops so half a dozen more taps is never a bad thing. For grouping just because you don’t need to normally use all your mana, if your cleric dies and you’re left trying to survive, having more mana is always helpful.

[Ripqozko]

I used to think this was true. Mana regen or bust, ignore max mana. But I didn't find it to be true when playing my SK.

With about 2k mana my troll could usually go at around 90 minutes before needing a med break. This is because you're balancing health with mana utilizing regen, epic procs, clickies, fear kiting etc. SKs are all about the balancing act.

Having another 200 mana would have let me go another 10 minutes or so without needing a med break. I find that to be pretty significant. I went STA and it literally did nothing for me. I'd regen that in between pulls so it really didn't change my killing power. STA is all about cheal chains and having a little more aoe survivability. Which for tanking group/raid stuff is good as I mentioned. But most SKs like to solo a lot, the class is designed perfectly to do so. And I just found little use for Stamina.

you already said you dont raid, if you did youd want max stamina. if you are ogre/troll sure you dont need to use sta points, but if you choose a better looking race i would. just because you raid doesnt mean you automatically are in bis, im in mostly 2nd and i dont cap until a couple more items.

[Lune]

The problem here is you simply assume that saying "you don't know what you are talking about" is a valid argument. It isn't.

I can back up my arguments with facts, while you haven't.

When comparing INT to STA, you can see how much you get from both. STA gives you 104 HP at 60, and INT gives you roughly 220 mana under 200 INT.

A level 30 SK is getting 52 HP from the STA, and roughly 110 mana from the INT. 110 mana translates to 56 HP via one Lifedraw + Life Spike, and you still have 20+ mana. Statistically the INT is helping you more while leveling.

INT is factually harder to cap once you hit 60 compared to STA and STR.

I can show you the tangible benefits at all level ranges.

See I'm beginning to doubt you're even reading or understanding my posts because you're ignoring or failing to comprehend what I've said. I'm not making any argument about what things are like at 60 with capped stats. OP is extremely unlikely to ever reach that point.

Yes your argument is based on facts, as is mine, but that doesn't make you correct, because the conclusions you are drawing from those facts are all wrong. You're telling some dude who wants to roll an iksar SK to play around with a Greenmist to put all his points into INT because at 60, raid-buffed and raid-geared, he's going to cap his STR and STA, and in that situation INT provides a damn near negligible benefit. Greater INT when leveling only translates to HP IF YOU RUN OUT OF MANA *and* cast the spells, because it's not sustain. Greater HP is going to keep you above the "Oh shit" threshold on a larger portion of fights and potentially preclude you from ever casting inefficient lifetaps in the first place.

You're additionally ignoring the fact that STR is going to help him do more damage 100% of the time while leveling, increasing XP, ending fights more quickly, and saving spells from ever having to be cast, while greater INT has a few fringe benefits in survivability, and you have to cast spells to realize the translation from mana to HP. Furthermore, that you believe Shralok Packs are going to keep an iksar from getting encumbered when stuffed with fine steel and other heavy junk tells me you've never played a nerd race.

[Snaggles]

I’m a fan of spending knight points on str assuming you aren’t an ogre, troll, or dwarf. Wearing normal (EC and Chardok) gear you won’t get much str if stamina focused. Sk’s don’t get yaulp4 to bump str 40 points. Even then, my 90str pally casual raiding pally with y4 barely caps str with Focus. If you are filling out BiS then do whatever you want.

In the end it’s only 10-20 points but a casual player constantly running slow while trying to pack fine steel is a miserable experience.

I hope the OP has fun with the SK! Greenmist quest is super fun.

[Lune]

I’m a fan of spending knight points on str assuming you aren’t an ogre, troll, or dwarf. Wearing normal (EC and Chardok) gear you won’t get much str if stamina focused. Sk’s don’t get yaulp4 to bump str 40 points. Even then, my 90str pally casual raiding pally with y4 barely caps str with Focus. If you are filling out BiS then do whatever you want.

In the end it’s only 10-20 points but a casual player constantly running slow while trying to pack fine steel is a miserable experience.

I hope the OP has fun with the SK! Greenmist quest is super fun.

Yea I put my points into STA on my current DE SK and I'm wishing I would have done more STR less STA. Shaman buffed me and it killed me how much more dmg I was doing haha

[Troxx]

TLDR version for OP: stats don’t actually matter. Dump it all into wisdom and you’ll still be fine.

For the OP in this instance given rolling iksar for greenmist and with a race with low starting strength - I’m still going with Lune in that strength will give you a better quality of life. You will actually do more damage. Things will actually die faster. You will actually be able to carry more stuff. Those are givens.

If you were aspiring to be a BiS raid geared toon? I’d say go full intelligence. If you were going to actively raid but not ever shoot for endgame BiS, either stamina or intelligence will serve you well regardless of race.

But if you’re just rolling a low strength alt to play around with (solo, xp group, whatever) … strength works just fine.

It’s really not that complicated.

[Crede]

you already said you dont raid, if you did youd want max stamina. if you are ogre/troll sure you dont need to use sta points, but if you choose a better looking race i would. just because you raid doesnt mean you automatically are in bis, im in mostly 2nd and i dont cap until a couple more items.

Ya if you’re smart you go troll. Or ogre I guess. No more sta worries.

[Lune]

You will actually do more damage. Things will actually die faster. You will actually be able to carry more stuff. Those are givens.

If you were aspiring to be a BiS raid geared toon? I’d say go full intelligence. If you were going to actively raid but not ever shoot for endgame BiS, either stamina or intelligence will serve you well regardless of race.

But if you’re just rolling a low strength alt to play around with (solo, xp group, whatever) … strength works just fine.

It’s really not that complicated.

Yea I'd agree with all this.

I think the best thing to understand is that starting stats don't matter all that much in the grand scheme of things.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

See I'm beginning to doubt you're even reading or understanding my posts because you're ignoring or failing to comprehend what I've said. I'm not making any argument about what things are like at 60 with capped stats. OP is extremely unlikely to ever reach that point.


The only person who isn't reading is yourself.


A level 30 SK is getting 52 HP from the STA, and roughly 110 mana from the INT. 110 mana translates to 56 HP via one Lifedraw + Life Spike, and you still have 20+ mana. Statistically the INT is helping you more while leveling.


I have already shown what INT vs. STA looks like at level 30, which isn't a level 60 BiS character. INT is giving you more HP back, and some mana to boot.

I also explained what your character looks like at level 60 with BiS gear, so you can see the pros/cons across all level ranges.


Yes your argument is based on facts, as is mine, but that doesn't make you correct, because the conclusions you are drawing from those facts are all wrong. You're telling some dude who wants to roll an iksar SK to play around with a Greenmist to put all his points into INT because at 60, raid-buffed and raid-geared, he's going to cap his STR and STA, and in that situation INT provides a damn near negligible benefit. Greater INT when leveling only translates to HP IF YOU RUN OUT OF MANA *and* cast the spells, because it's not sustain. Greater HP is going to keep you above the "Oh shit" threshold on a larger portion of fights and potentially preclude you from ever casting inefficient lifetaps in the first place.


As I explained above, you are getting more value out of the INT in terms of both HP and Mana while leveling. If you are at the point where you only have 50 HP left, you screwed up. The problem wasn't your starting stats, it was your strategy.


You're additionally ignoring the fact that STR is going to help him do more damage 100% of the time while leveling, increasing XP, ending fights more quickly, and saving spells from ever having to be cast, while greater INT has a few fringe benefits in survivability, and you have to cast spells to realize the translation from mana to HP. Furthermore, that you believe Shralok Packs are going to keep an iksar from getting encumbered when stuffed with fine steel and other heavy junk tells me you've never played a nerd race.

I am not ignoring this fact. You are simply failing to provide any data to back up the claim that the extra damage from +20 STR is going to be noticeable. I have leveled up multiple melee characters, including an Iksar Monk with 140 STR and no Tink Bags. I am quite confident in my knowledge of how much STR helps your DPS, and how much STR you need to carry things like fine steel weapons. I generally level by killing guards and selling FS weapons lol. OP doesn't need 200+ STR to do well in terms of DPS and carry capacity.


TLDR version for OP: stats don’t actually matter.

This is correct. Starting stats won't have a significant impact on you one way or the other. I don't think anybody (including myself) was claiming otherwise. However, some people like to know which is the BEST choice, even if it won't have a significant impact. There is a factual answer to this, and it is INT.

[Troxx]

I am not ignoring this fact. You are simply failing to provide any data to back up the claim that the extra damage from +20 STR is going to be noticeable.


https://media.tenor.com/6MazTYjQuZgAAAAC/evidence-shia-labeouf.gif

This reminds me so much of this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

449 pages of DSM demanding “data” and “evidence” while providing nothing but napkin math in return.

Seriously, it has to be the most epic thread on these forums.

Lol at shamans out dpsing mages or parallel root rotting in fast paced dps groups as a way of contributing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://media.tenor.com/6MazTYjQuZgAAAAC/evidence-shia-labeouf.gif

This reminds me so much of this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

449 pages of DSM demanding “data” and “evidence” while providing nothing but napkin math in return.

Seriously, it has to be the most epic thread on these forums.

Lol at shamans out dpsing mages or parallel root rotting in fast paced dps groups as a way of contributing.

I proved you wrong in that thread, which you didn't read. You spent hundreds of pages claiming that solo DPS parses cannot be used to show group DPS, and I have video evidence of me in a group showing that you can match solo DPS parses. Your "evidence" that solo DPS parses cannot be used was to post silly gifs non-stop. You are a troll.

Please start providing evidence for your claims. Nobody thinks you are correct simply because you say so.

Also, please stop posting things that are off topic. Posting a thread proving you are wrong and a troll isn't a very good method to try and discredit others.

[bcbrown]

Please start providing evidence for your claims. Nobody thinks you are correct simply because you say so.

This is factually inaccurate.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is factually inaccurate.

What is inaccurate?

[bcbrown]

What is inaccurate?

I think Troxx is correct because of what he said (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633162&postcount=60). I'm satisfied with his argument and do not need further evidence.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think Troxx is correct because of what he said.

That is perfectly fine. Nobody is forcing you to agree with anybody! But he hasn't provided evidence for his claims, and I have.

I wouldn't advise believing people who refuse to provide any evidence for their claims, regardless of how confident you think they sound.

[bcbrown]

You said nobody believed him, and I do, which makes your assertion factually incorrect. That's all I'm saying.

Thank you for your advice. I will take it under advisement with as much credence as I think is due.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You said nobody believed him, and I do, which makes your assertion factually incorrect. That's all I'm saying.

Thank you for your advice. I will take it under advisement with as much credence as I think is due.

I am not sure why you think this silly attempt at a "gotcha" is helping the conversation at all. If you agree with Troxx, simply say so!

There is obviously some reason why you think Troxx is correct, other than him simply saying so. For all I know you could agree with him because he disagrees with me. That is a reason, albeit a bad one. However, I am not going to insult you by claiming you are a Troxx yes man. That would be the only way you would agree with him simply because he says so.

Remember, I didn't say "Nobody believes Troxx". I said "Nobody thinks you [Troxx] are correct simply because you say so". There is a difference there. If you agree with Troxx simply because he says so, you are a yes man. A yes man is someone who will agree with someone else just for the sake of it.

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/wqBB3t3g4WAAAAAC/lol-chicken.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://media.tenor.com/wqBB3t3g4WAAAAAC/lol-chicken.gif

Thank you for continuing to prove you are a nothing but a troll.

Please stop posting off-topic nonsense. If you think you are correct, you need to bring more than bad gifs.

[Troxx]

Oh I consistently have thoughtful input ripe with insight. My opinions, complete with supporting rationale, have been shared already. You have also shared yours. Repeating the same thing dozens of times does not add value.

I learned a long time ago that trying to argue and reason with you (specifically you) is pointless and only results in 400+ page-long threads of autistic sputtering.

GIFs are a far better approach.

Tally ho!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh I consistently have thoughtful input ripe with insight. My opinions, complete with supporting rationale, have been shared already. You have also shared yours. Repeating the same thing dozens of times does not add value.

I learned a long time ago that trying to argue and reason with you (specifically you) is pointless and only results in 400+ page-long threads of autistic sputtering.

GIFs are a far better approach.

Tally ho!

In other words: "Anybody who disagrees with me is 'autistic'. I am articulate by my own admission, and my gif posting is proof of that. When I re-post my opinion dozens of times, that is OK. Only people I dislike cannot do that".

It is sad that you are so unable to provide any evidence for your claims, you have to resort to lying about other posters to try and get people to agree with you.

Please stop posting this nonsense. It is off-topic, and simply continues to prove you are a troll.

I will be happy to discuss the topic at hand, if you ever decide to get back to it. I won't hold my breath. Gif incoming, probably.

[bcbrown]

I am not sure why you think this silly attempt at a "gotcha" is helping the conversation at all. If you agree with Troxx, simply say so!

Remember, I didn't say "Nobody believes Troxx". I said "Nobody thinks you [Troxx] are correct simply because you say so". There is a difference there. If you agree with Troxx simply because he says so, you are a yes man. A yes man is someone who will agree with someone else just for the sake of it.

It makes me a little sad that you think I'm just attempting a silly gotcha. I'm trying to make a more fundamental point about your approach to rhetoric. I'm also aware that you find it somewhat frustrating how concise most of my replies are, so here is far more verbiage than this topic deserves.

It's possible I misinterpreted what you wrote. I see two ways to interpret "Nobody thinks you are correct simply because you say so.": 1) emphasizing 'because'; this is accusing Troxx of an appeal to authority, "this is true because I say it is true". I considered and discounted this interpretation because I don't see Troxx making an appeal to authority. If this is what you meant, I'd like to see where you think he is doing that. 2) emphasizing "say"; what you say is insufficient to convince anyone. This is what I assume you meant, because the previous sentence, "Please start providing evidence for your claims.", is discussing the content of his argument. If you had preceded this sentence with something like "You're no credible authority on EQ", I would have been more inclined to the first interpretation.

But yes, I agree (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633162&postcount=60) with Troxx. Not because of who he is or any authority he has, but because the content of what he says makes sense to me. I find his argument to be reasonable and convincing. I find your argument to be unconvincing. OP mentions "I will have access to all or most of group content gear at level 1"; if you want to convince me, show an Iksar SK magelo with 180-200 strength at that level of gear. Not raid BIS, but "all or most of group content gear". (I'm also curious what the OP would find convincing)

But I think the larger, more fundamental point I'd like to make regards what I would characterize as your preoccupation with "evidence". You're constantly asking for evidence. You frequently mention that your motivation is to put information out there and let the audience make their own decisions. As someone who is far less experienced or knowledgeable than any of y'all, I believe I'm qualified to speak as a representative for the cohort of people you claim to be addressing. Your constant emphasis and demand for "evidence" makes you less credible.

Not all forms of disputes or arguments require evidence. If there is a factual dispute, then obviously evidence is pertinent. But this dispute, like most that you seem to find yourself in, is not factual. It's about which of several mutually exclusive options is better. And better is subjective. As far as I can see, there's three positions one can hold:

Intelligence is best, because the other relevant stats will be capped easier late-game, and more mana is always better.
Stamina is best, because an SK's main job is tanking, and it's important to cap stamina/HP as quickly as possible.
Strength is best, even though it might eventually be overcapped, because late game stats won't make much difference, whereas it will make a measureable difference in quality of life while leveling and uncapped.


Evidence has very little to do with the strength of the argument when everyone is in rough consensus as to the mechanics affected by each of these attributes. It's the quality of the reasoning that matters.

And so this is my unsolicited feedback for you: I find how you structure your arguments to be weak. When you say "no one will be convinced by what you say" to someone I find credible, it makes you less credible. When you demand evidence in a subjective dispute, it makes you less credible.

If I'm the sort of person you're trying to convince, I hope this feedback is helpful. If not, please feel free to disregard it. Either way, I hope you're having a great day.

[Jimjam]

See I'm beginning to doubt you're even reading or understanding my posts because you're ignoring or failing to comprehend what I've said. I'm not making any argument about what things are like at 60 with capped stats. OP is extremely unlikely to ever reach that point.

Yes your argument is based on facts, as is mine, but that doesn't make you correct, because the conclusions you are drawing from those facts are all wrong. You're telling some dude who wants to roll an iksar SK to play around with a Greenmist to put all his points into INT because at 60, raid-buffed and raid-geared, he's going to cap his STR and STA, and in that situation INT provides a damn near negligible benefit. Greater INT when leveling only translates to HP IF YOU RUN OUT OF MANA *and* cast the spells, because it's not sustain. Greater HP is going to keep you above the "Oh shit" threshold on a larger portion of fights and potentially preclude you from ever casting inefficient lifetaps in the first place.

You're additionally ignoring the fact that STR is going to help him do more damage 100% of the time while leveling, increasing XP, ending fights more quickly, and saving spells from ever having to be cast, while greater INT has a few fringe benefits in survivability, and you have to cast spells to realize the translation from mana to HP. Furthermore, that you believe Shralok Packs are going to keep an iksar from getting encumbered when stuffed with fine steel and other heavy junk tells me you've never played a nerd race.

Rip’s screen shot shows his nerd is carrying 200 weight with gear and a fair amount of pp.

Dumping str is great imo as you don’t rely on buffs and it protects against incapacitate type spells (which you’ll have spammed against you in karnors and seb, two of my favy zones, as well as a bunch more).

Getting encumbered is super annoying, which incapacitate, str taps, etc seem to provoke, so for a strict levelling toon I simp str. As i understand if you overcap str it is no problem as it provides a buffer against these spells (can anyone confirm or deny?)

[Troxx]

My scrub alt (60 paladin):

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mithromir

Not great, but when I played actively my efforts (and dkp) were squarely focused on my warrior. I do wish I had spent some of my banked dkp on a Narandi helm for him before I stepped away from active play and Azure Guard disbanded.

I can’t honestly remember what I put his starting points into. Half elf paladins have a starting strength of 80. What I do know is that, geared as he is, I can hit the strength cap with any combination of 2 of the following 3 buffs:

Maniacal strength
Focus
Big Yaulp

With any buff less than focus/maniacal, I won’t hit that cap. I can Yaulp myself up over 200 self buffed. Having max strength increases your attack as well as the other damage scaling perks of strength up to the cap.

The OP, unless they become a dedicated raider, will likely be looking at a magelo profile similar to mine (minus the weapon) as the glass ceiling. He won’t be capping stamina ever. He might get lucky to cap his strength with str/focus stack from a 60 shaman - and always be floating lower than that without. Unless he raids and raids hard, the OP has no risk of overcapping his strength buffed in groups.

Strength does provide fairly linear gains up to the cap.

Extra mana is always cool but most knights will spend 99.9% of their active playtime hovering at some percentage of mana below 100% - teetering up and down depending on innate mana regen (FT items and buffs) and however much time they can manage to pop a squat to get in a few med ticks before the next engage. Even soloing, never really meditate all the way up to 100%. Even with my pathetic mana pool it just isn’t necessary.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It makes me a little sad that you think I'm just attempting a silly gotcha. I'm trying to make a more fundamental point about your approach to rhetoric. I'm also aware that you find it somewhat frustrating how concise most of my replies are, so here is far more verbiage than this topic deserves.


It is not that I find concise replies frustrating. They are simply much easier to misinterpret, and it seems I did misinterpret it. All I can see is the text, not the intent. That is why I tend to be verbose in my posts. It reduces the odds of misinterpreting something. I apologize if I misinterpreted what you said.


It's possible I misinterpreted what you wrote. I see two ways to interpret "Nobody thinks you are correct simply because you say so.": 1) emphasizing 'because'; this is accusing Troxx of an appeal to authority, "this is true because I say it is true". I considered and discounted this interpretation because I don't see Troxx making an appeal to authority. If this is what you meant, I'd like to see where you think he is doing that. 2) emphasizing "say"; what you say is insufficient to convince anyone. This is what I assume you meant, because the previous sentence, "Please start providing evidence for your claims.", is discussing the content of his argument. If you had preceded this sentence with something like "You're no credible authority on EQ", I would have been more inclined to the first interpretation.


I am saying the content of his argument is insufficient to convince people, because he will not provide evidence for his claims. Troxx and other posters keep making the claim the +20 STR will give you a significant boost to DPS. From my years of experience this has not been the case, and I am asking him and others to provide evidence for this claim. I would love to see some data showing this, but nobody seems interested in providing it. This is a factual claim, so it is easy to prove one way or the other. I am not going to simply accept this claim because they say so.


But yes, I agree (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633162&postcount=60) with Troxx. Not because of who he is or any authority he has, but because the content of what he says makes sense to me. I find his argument to be reasonable and convincing. I find your argument to be unconvincing. OP mentions "I will have access to all or most of group content gear at level 1"; if you want to convince me, show an Iksar SK magelo with 180-200 strength at that level of gear. Not raid BIS, but "all or most of group content gear". (I'm also curious what the OP would find convincing)


I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. But I will not agree with posters like Troxx who make claims without evidence, and then proclaim that people who disagree with them are 'autistic'. Not only have they provided no evidence, they use bully tactics in an attempt to silence detractors. I would be wary of listening to people like that. Here is the requested Magelo: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK - 172 STR with EC gear on a Iksar who put points into INT instead of STR. With Siphon Strength you would be at 182 self buffed.


But I think the larger, more fundamental point I'd like to make regards what I would characterize as your preoccupation with "evidence". You're constantly asking for evidence. You frequently mention that your motivation is to put information out there and let the audience make their own decisions. As someone who is far less experienced or knowledgeable than any of y'all, I believe I'm qualified to speak as a representative for the cohort of people you claim to be addressing. Your constant emphasis and demand for "evidence" makes you less credible.

Evidence has very little to do with the strength of the argument when everyone is in rough consensus as to the mechanics affected by each of these attributes. It's the quality of the reasoning that matters.


This is incorrect. Video games are built on rules and math. Factual claims such as which starting stat is best can be proven with evidence, and there is a best and worst option statistically speaking.


Not all forms of disputes or arguments require evidence. If there is a factual dispute, then obviously evidence is pertinent. But this dispute, like most that you seem to find yourself in, is not factual. It's about which of several mutually exclusive options is better. And better is subjective. As far as I can see, there's three positions one can hold:

Intelligence is best, because the other relevant stats will be capped easier late-game, and more mana is always better.
Stamina is best, because an SK's main job is tanking, and it's important to cap stamina/HP as quickly as possible.
Strength is best, even though it might eventually be overcapped, because late game stats won't make much difference, whereas it will make a measureable difference in quality of life while leveling and uncapped.



This is a common misunderstanding. Each stat can be the "best" in a specific scenario. Dumping your points into Charisma makes you the "best" at vendor prices and lulling undead. However, I think everyone would agree that this "best" is trivial for a Shadowknight. When most players ask "what is the best starting stat", they want the objective best starting stat. That is the stat that gives most players the most value over the most amount of time.

That stat is INT, and it is easy to prove:
1. INT will help you from levels 9-60, including when you are in BiS gear.
2. STR is easy to get, and you do not need 200+ STR to level to 60. No one has provided anything to show that 20 STR is going to be a significant boon.
3. STA provides less HP than INT will when it comes to lifetaps, and mana is more flexible. You can use it to FD instead, which will save you even more than 50-100 HP. When raiding, 50-100 HP will not save you in most situations. This is easily proven, as raid targets have been taken down with characters that are no where near BiS gear. That means you are hundreds of HP down due to the lack of 100 HP items.
4. When soloing, SK's use mana for fear kiting, especially when they are an Iksar without access to Blood Ember. This is a much more efficient manner of leveling than face tanking the mob. The mana is going to help with fear kiting.
5. If you get down to 100 HP, that is not an issue with your starting stats. That is an issue with skill, strategy, or luck. You shouldn't be getting to that point if you are playing correctly.


And so this is my unsolicited feedback for you: I find how you structure your arguments to be weak. When you say "no one will be convinced by what you say" to someone I find credible, it makes you less credible. When you demand evidence in a subjective dispute, it makes you less credible.


Now I will provide some unsolicited feedback to you. I am pointing out that Troxx isn't providing evidence for his claims. You can get the data for how much DPS you get from +20 STR, that isn't subjective. He is responding to my posts with gifs and insults. You are calling me less credible than the posters who literally insult/troll people who disagree with them. That makes you sound like a troll, since you are clearly not being consistent with your opinions. I am perfectly fine with accepting criticism and trying to improve myself. But your advise sounds hollow when you give people who use insults and trolling a pass. You completely ignore them. This shows you do not have a very good method for determining credibility. You should work on that first, before advising others.

I hope you're having a great day.

You too! Have a great day.

[Troxx]

He is responding to my posts with gifs and insults.

Am not!

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CoordinatedDelightfulAfricanbushviper-size_restricted.gif

[Lune]

It makes me a little sad that you think I'm just attempting a silly gotcha. I'm trying to make a more fundamental point about your approach to rhetoric. I'm also aware that you find it somewhat frustrating how concise most of my replies are, so here is far more verbiage than this topic deserves.

It's possible I misinterpreted what you wrote. I see two ways to interpret "Nobody thinks you are correct simply because you say so.": 1) emphasizing 'because'; this is accusing Troxx of an appeal to authority, "this is true because I say it is true". I considered and discounted this interpretation because I don't see Troxx making an appeal to authority. If this is what you meant, I'd like to see where you think he is doing that. 2) emphasizing "say"; what you say is insufficient to convince anyone. This is what I assume you meant, because the previous sentence, "Please start providing evidence for your claims.", is discussing the content of his argument. If you had preceded this sentence with something like "You're no credible authority on EQ", I would have been more inclined to the first interpretation.

But yes, I agree (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633162&postcount=60) with Troxx. Not because of who he is or any authority he has, but because the content of what he says makes sense to me. I find his argument to be reasonable and convincing. I find your argument to be unconvincing. OP mentions "I will have access to all or most of group content gear at level 1"; if you want to convince me, show an Iksar SK magelo with 180-200 strength at that level of gear. Not raid BIS, but "all or most of group content gear". (I'm also curious what the OP would find convincing)

But I think the larger, more fundamental point I'd like to make regards what I would characterize as your preoccupation with "evidence". You're constantly asking for evidence. You frequently mention that your motivation is to put information out there and let the audience make their own decisions. As someone who is far less experienced or knowledgeable than any of y'all, I believe I'm qualified to speak as a representative for the cohort of people you claim to be addressing. Your constant emphasis and demand for "evidence" makes you less credible.

Not all forms of disputes or arguments require evidence. If there is a factual dispute, then obviously evidence is pertinent. But this dispute, like most that you seem to find yourself in, is not factual. It's about which of several mutually exclusive options is better. And better is subjective. As far as I can see, there's three positions one can hold:

Intelligence is best, because the other relevant stats will be capped easier late-game, and more mana is always better.
Stamina is best, because an SK's main job is tanking, and it's important to cap stamina/HP as quickly as possible.
Strength is best, even though it might eventually be overcapped, because late game stats won't make much difference, whereas it will make a measureable difference in quality of life while leveling and uncapped.


Evidence has very little to do with the strength of the argument when everyone is in rough consensus as to the mechanics affected by each of these attributes. It's the quality of the reasoning that matters.

And so this is my unsolicited feedback for you: I find how you structure your arguments to be weak. When you say "no one will be convinced by what you say" to someone I find credible, it makes you less credible. When you demand evidence in a subjective dispute, it makes you less credible.

If I'm the sort of person you're trying to convince, I hope this feedback is helpful. If not, please feel free to disregard it. Either way, I hope you're having a great day.

What a great post and I respect the kindness.

This is incorrect. Video games are built on rules and math. Factual claims such as which starting stat is best can be proven with evidence, and there is a best and worst option statistically speaking.


Dude do you not understand that you haven't provided any useful math? That is why people are accusing you of napkin math, because you are completely missing the full picture logically.

Yes, x INT will translate to x mana, which will translate to x HP with lifetaps. Now calculate the relative DPS burden of spending that time casting and not attacking, and then compare that to the amount of HP saved by the increased DPS, killing the mob more quickly and decreasing the damage it does to you by some amount. This is what I mean when I say you are drawing the wrong conclusions from your "facts". Most of us are extremely experienced with EQ and have a good deal of instinct when it comes to the game mechanics. I don't have to calculate the average weight of a fine steel weapon x the # of slots in an inventory of Shralok Packs to tell you any nerd is going to be encumbered because it has happened to me on characters.

(Although the answer is 6.55 average x 50 slots (to generously allot 16 slots for food and other items across 8, 8 slot shralok packs) = 327.5 - 25% WR = 245.6 weight, or an encumbered OGRE in raiding gear... not including worn equipment. I banged it out because I can't resist dunking on someone who doesn't reason in good faith. Even just 20 weapons in Shraloks would weigh 100, which coupled with worn gear is going to encumber most iksar. Hope there's a vendor nearby. Oh wait, you're iksar).

Just like I can tell you most knights never make it to 60, much less to full BiS gear (not just from personal experience, but from statistics someone gathered on the matter), because they are pretty weak classes for most applications at high levels and can be frustrating to play. And that's aside from the poor comparative utility of INT / max mana which I'm done repeating.

You don't have to provide actual numbers to know killing a mob faster is going to be more useful than having a slightly larger mana pool under 90% of circumstances when leveling. Want to prove that wisdom wrong? Good, provide actual math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude do you not understand that you haven't provided any useful math? That is why people are accusing you of napkin math, because you are completely missing the full picture logically.

Yes, x INT will translate to x mana, which will translate to x HP with lifetaps. Now calculate the relative burden of spending that time casting and not attacking, and then compare that to the amount of HP saved by the increased DPS, killing the mob more quickly and decreasing the damage it does to you by some amount. This is what I mean when I say you are drawing the wrong conclusions from your "facts". Most of us are extremely experienced with EQ and have a good deal of instinct when it comes to the game mechanics.


You do not seem to be very experienced in P99's game mechanics if you think there is a burden to casting a single life tap spell on a mob that is feared or running at low life. Max mana/hp is only used once, and will not be replenished until you meditate back to full hp and mana. You are only getting enough mana for 1-2 good life taps with the +20 INT, depending on your level.


I don't have to calculate the average weight of a fine steel weapon x the # of slots in an inventory of Shralok Packs to tell you any nerd is going to be encumbered because it has happened to me on characters.

(Although the answer is 6.55 average x 50 slots (to generously allot 16 slots for food and other items across 8, 8 slot shralok packs) = 327.5 - 25% WR = 245.6 weight, or an encumbered OGRE in raiding gear... not including worn equipment. I banged it out because I can't resist dunking on someone who doesn't reason in good faith).


I have also lugged around plenty of FS weapons. You are not doing the math correctly, probably because you are too eager to "dunk" on people, instead of having a civil conversation. I think you missed my post where I mentioned other cheap WR bags.

Let's use your 6.5 stone average per FS weapon:

1. Evil Eye Bag is 70% WR. 8 slots would weigh (8 x 6.5) x 0.3 = 15.6 + 3 (bag weight) = 18.6 stone
2. Light Burlap Sack is 65% WR. 8 slots would weigh (8 x 6.5) x 0.35 = 18.2 + 3 (bag weight) = 21.2 stone
3. Large Soiled Bag (for Bandages, food, etc) weighs 1 stone total for the next 10 slots.
5. Shralok Pack is 25% WR. 8 slots would weigh (8 x 6.5) x 0.75 = 39 + 0.4 (bag weight) = 39.4 stone x 5 = 197 stone.

Total = 237.8 stone. You could further reduce the weight with a few other cheap/easy to get bags like https://wiki.project1999.com/Box_of_Nil_Space and https://wiki.project1999.com/Wenglawks_Manly_Purse .

The nice thing about having high STR is you can carry a lot more weight over capacity before you slow down. The formula is based on how much weight you are over capacity compared to your STR. That is why it is easier to slow down on a character with low STR. A character with 60 STR is already 50% over their max carry capacity at 90/60 stone. To get to 50% over capacity with 180 STR, you would need to be carrying 270 stone. https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK - This magelo I made has an Iksar SK with 182 STR with Siphon Strength. They have 66 stone worth of equipment, so they would go up to 303 stone. They wouldn't be able to carry 7 bags worth of FS, but they could carry 5-6. Personally I usually have 3+ bags of gear. I never have 7 fully open bags for vendor loot. SK's need bandages, food, water, jaspers, bone chips, and keys at minimum. This isn't even including resistance gear.


Just like I can tell you most knights never make it to 60, much less to full BiS gear (not just from personal experience, but from statistics someone gathered on the matter), because they are pretty weak classes for most applications and can be frustrating to play. And that's aside from the poor comparative utility of INT / max mana which I'm done repeating.

You don't have to provide actual numbers to know killing a mob faster is going to be more useful than having a slightly larger mana pool under 90% of circumstances when leveling. Want to prove that wisdom wrong? Good, provide actual math.

You do need to provide actual numbers when making claims about numbers. If the extra STR doesn't provide enough DPS to kill mobs fast enough to matter, then your whole argument falls flat.

[Jimjam]

Dsm your iksar sk is littered with equipment it can’t use.

I swapped in a few items… i think the gearset is iksar/sk friendly now. startMageloProfile

* Name:
* Class: Shadowknight
* Race: Iksar
* Level: 30
* Guild: N/A
* Religion: Cazic-Thule
* AltOrTestChar: Yes

* BaseSTR: 80
* BaseSTA: 75
* BaseAGI: 90
* BaseDEX: 85
* BaseWIS: 80
* BaseINT: 105
* BaseCHA: 60

* Neck: Chipped_Velium_Amulet
* Head: Circlet_of_Vallon
* Ears1: Orc_Fang_Earring
* Ears2: Orc_Fang_Earring
* Face: Tribal_War_Mask
* Chest: Ceremonial_Iksar_Chestplate
* Arms: Dark_Scale_Sleeves
* Back: Cloak_of_the_Maelstrom
* Waist: Thick_Banded_Belt
* Shoulders: Barbed_Dragonscale_Pauldrons
* Wrists1: Bracer_of_Scavenging
* Wrists2: Imperial_Wardog_Collar
* Legs: Sebilite_Scale_Leggings
* Hands: Silver_Chitin_Hand_Wraps
* Fingers1: Velium_Fire_Wedding_Ring
* Fingers2: Velium_Fire_Wedding_Ring
* Feet: Crystal_Chitin_Boots

* Primary: Argent_Protector
* Secondary:
* Range: Idol_of_the_Thorned
* Ammo:

* Inv1:
* Inv2:
* Inv3:
* Inv4:
* Inv5:
* Inv6:
* Inv7:
* Inv8:

endMageloProfile

== Extra ==

You can delete this section, or add anything you'd like here (wiki syntax).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dsm your iksar sk is littered with equipment it can’t use.

Good catch. I'll adjust it. There are plenty of options.

EDIT: Fixed!

[Lune]

5. Shralok Pack is 25% WR. 8 slots would weigh (8 x 6.5) x 0.75 = 39 + 0.4 (bag weight) = 39.4 stone x 5 = 197 stone.

I did do the math correctly; I generously omitted the (.4) weight of the bag because it isn't necessary to prove the point.

Also your fucking SK is wearing all strength gear lol, way to prove my point (much of it iksar can't even wear)... that's the only way you're going to get an iksar SK to carry that much without encumbrance while leveling, especially if you allocate to INT.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I did do the math correctly; I generously omitted the (.4) weight of the bag because it isn't necessary to prove the point.

Also your fucking SK is wearing all strength gear lol, way to prove my point (much of it iksar can't even wear)... that's the only way you're going to get an iksar SK to carry that much without encumbrance while leveling, especially if you allocate to INT.

To do the math correctly, you need to include the bag weight. You also missed the cheap bags that were not Shralok Packs. You also failed to mention that you can carry more weight over your limit when your limit is higher. It is also a bit unrealistic to assume that you will only have 2 bags full of necessary items. As I said, I usually end up with 3+ bags of items, especially on an SK. You need multiple reagents, bandages, keys, food, water, resistance gear, clickies, and weapon swaps.

I would love to see you post a Magelo if you think you have a better gear setup. In the Velious era, a lot of items have STR on them. I already fixed the issues with the non-Iksar gear https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK . Thank you JimJam for pointing it out! Remember that there are only 20 starting stat points, so the difference is 20 STR at best. You could also swap out Cloak of the Malestrom for something like https://wiki.project1999.com/Hooded_Black_Cloak if you were worried about weight. That would save you 17.5 stone.

[Lune]

If the extra STR doesn't provide enough DPS to kill mobs fast enough to matter, then your whole argument falls flat.

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 250 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 150) / 100 = 3.5
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (3.5 x 10) + 5 = 40

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, more like 10%, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

To do the math correctly, you need to include the bag weight.

That is arbitrary. If I'm showing you how easy it is to get encumbered and undershoot my own number, that only adds to my point. Saying my point doesn't stand because I didn't demonstrate the heaviness of FS weapons enough is illogical. Your thinking is incredibly rigid.


I would love to see you post a Magelo if you think you have a better gear setup. In the Velious era, a lot of items have STR on them. I already fixed the issues with the non-Iksar gear https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK . Thank you JimJam for pointing it out! Remember that there are only 20 starting stat points, so the difference is 20 STR at best. You could also swap out Cloak of the Malestrom for something like https://wiki.project1999.com/Hooded_Black_Cloak if you were worried about weight. That would save you 17.5 stone.

No, you were specifically aiming for strength items to bring that strength up to prove a point. Your original magelo had hammerhead helm, hero bracers and shit. Few of those items are velious items or something you would select if you weren't going for strength. Buddy, if strength is so good you need to specifically gear for it, maybe put some points in it. Just a straight up strength gear-out, to make up for the terrible INT starting point allocation.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:



Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage.

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

There are two quick problems with all this:
1. The difference in starting stats is 20 points. I am not sure why you are using 50 points for your DPS calculations.

2. 20% max hits is probably not accurate, that sounds high. I'll double check some logs tomorrow to get a better number.


That is arbitrary. If I'm showing you how easy it is to get encumbered and undershoot my own number, that only adds to my point. Saying my point doesn't stand because I didn't demonstrate the heaviness of FS weapons enough is illogical. Your thinking is incredibly rigid.

I am not sure why you are fixating on my bag weight comment while ignoring all of the other issues. Your point doesn't stand because you are ignoring other cheap weight reduction bags, you don't mention the increase in overweight carry capacity, and you are assuming 50 bags slots for FS weapons, when an SK will probably have less than 50 available.


No, you were specifically aiming for strength items to bring that strength up to prove a point. Your original magelo had hammerhead helm, hero bracers and shit. Few of those items are velious items or something you would select if you weren't going for strength. Buddy, if strength is so good you need to specifically gear for it, maybe put some points in it. Just a straight up strength gear-out, to make up for the terrible INT starting point allocation.

You need to show what gear you think would replace the gear in my Magelo. Again, the difference in starting stats is 20 points. Thick Banded Belt is 15/20 missing STR, and belt slot isn't a high stat slot for low end gear. Good luck finding a cheap +15 STA or +15 INT item.

[Lune]

There are two quick problems with all this:
1. The difference in starting stats is 20 points. I am not sure why you are using 50 points for your DPS calculations.

2. 20% max hits is probably not accurate, that sounds high. I'll double check some logs tomorrow to get a better number.


1. Because i'm not talking starting stats, clearly; no iksar can reach 150. I'm talking geared. The per point value of strength is similar in both cases.

2. It doesn't need to be accurate to illustrate the power of strength compared to int. Run it with 10%, halving the final numbers, and it still beats INT. Hell, run it with 5% and it still beats int. The kobold dies slower but the difference is similar, and the kobold does more damage to you, meaning a greater burden for INT/lifetaps.

3. I thought you wanted to talk facts. Don't like my numbers? Provide better ones.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

1. Because i'm not talking starting stats, clearly; no iksar can reach 150. I'm talking geared.

2. It doesn't need to be accurate to illustrate the power of strength compared to int. Run it with 10%, halving the final numbers, and it still beats INT. Hell, run it with 5% and it still beats int. The kobold dies slower but the difference is similar, and the kobold does more damage to you, meaning a greater burden for INT/lifetaps.

3. I thought you wanted to talk facts. Don't like my numbers? Provide better ones.

1. This thread is about starting stats. So the question is: 20 STR, 20 STA, or 20 INT? Inflating the STR number to 50 is off topic.

2. Yes, the numbers need to be accurate. You cannot simply claim 50 STR is giving you X DPS you pulled out of thin air.

3. I do want to talk about facts. The random numbers you provided are not facts. You are making the claim. You need to provide the evidence.

[Lune]

1. This thread is about starting stats. So the question is: 20 STR, 20 STA, or 20 INT? Inflating the STR number to 50 is off topic.

2. Yes, the numbers need to be accurate. You cannot simply claim 50 STR is going you X DPS you pulled out of thin air.

3. I do want to talk about facts. The random numbers you provided are not facts. You are making the claim. You need to provide the evidence.

Honestly you call Troxx a troll but I think you might be projecting. You can't possibly be this obtuse.

I didn't "just" claim 50 STR is giving you X DPS, I provided the math behind it. Go ahead, run it with a 20 strength starting stat difference. I'm waiting. We don't know the backend proportion of max hits. They aren't random numbers, they are approximations. If the % is lower, the kobold does more damage and INT still loses. If the % is higher, STR is even better at killing the mob fast, and INT also loses. Go ahead and try it.

We are both making claims. You are claiming INT is better. I am claiming STR is better. I see my numbers. Where are yours?

I have leveled up multiple melee characters, including an Iksar Monk with 140 STR and no Tink Bags. I am quite confident in my knowledge of how much STR helps your DPS, and how much STR you need to carry things like fine steel weapons.

So why is my experience invalid but yours is? Let's see those numbers baby

Here they are again so they don't get buried by your muddying of the waters:

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 250 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 150) / 100 = 3.5
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (3.5 x 10) + 5 = 40

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, more like 10%, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

[Lune]

If you find more accurate numbers that show INT performing better I'll admit I'm wrong, because I'm capable of doing that, and we will all have learned something.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can get the average from real data to get an accurate approximation of how many hits are max hits. The problem is you simply pulled the 20% number out of thin air.

If you use 20 STR instead of 50 STR, your 344 second number goes to 374 seconds. If the max hit rate is only 2% instead of 20%, the difference is going to be small.

You are smply assuming the numbers are in your favor.

[Lune]

You can get the average from real data to get an accurate approximation of how many hits are max hits. The problem is you simply pulled the 20% number out of thin air.

If you use 20 STR instead of 50 STR, your 344 second number goes to 374 seconds. If the max hit rate is only 2% instead of 20%, the difference is going to be small.

You are smply assuming the numbers are in your favor.

For the third time, 10%, 20%, it doesn't matter because lower or higher the math works out in favor of STR. The mob is going to live even longer and do more damage you'd need to negate with lifetaps. You seem oddly reluctant to actually run the numbers yourself and demonstrate what you are saying mathematically for someone who keeps talking about "evidence".

I believe we only know the formulas for max hits. There are also non-max hits, and they have similar contribution from strength, so the max/non-max distinction is not meaningful. 2% and 20% is the same difference; 70 vs 80 as opposed to 700 vs 800. The mob just lives a lot longer. Again, if you have better numbers, provide them. Until then, I'm the only one providing evidence.

[Lune]

Out of service to the truth, let's look at the most extreme end of the numbers with a 2% max hit assumption and 80 vs 100 STR and 85 vs 105 INT (Naked characters at 40 with INT vs STR allocation, which is a ridiculous scenario)

Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 80 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 80) / 100 = 2.8
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (2.8 x 10) + 5 = 28

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 80. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 10% of all hits are max hits. Over 100 hits, you would do 280 damage with 80 strength (28 x 10). Over 100 hits, you would do 350 damage with 100 strength (35 x 10).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 80 strength, you would kill the kobold in 985 seconds (16 minutes, 25 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 788 seconds (13 minutes, 8 seconds). The 15 minute fight should tell you how unrealistic this 2% approximation is.

20 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 197 seconds (3 minutes, 17 seconds) faster, or in 80% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say 2% of its hits are max hits (a massive underestimation of mob max hits but lets roll with it). Mob delay is 30. In those 197 seconds, the kobold swings 65 more times, max hits 1.3 (65*.02) additional times, dealing 96.2 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

At level 40, below 200 INT, you get 7.53 mana/int per ((80*level) / 425)) * WIS/INT

7.53 x 85 = 640
7.53 x 105 - 790.7

Difference of 150 mana. 1 lifetap = 63 mana at 40 for 45 hp each. Two lifetaps (126/150 mana = 90 hp(INT). vs. 96.2hp(STR). Even in the most extreme conceivable case, with 2% max hit rate for both players and mobs, and completely naked characters, STR still comes out on top.

Now look at DSM's Magelo to see all the other stats you have to sacrifice to not get encumbered looting a couple fine steel longswords building like that, and nevermind the shit XP from killing that slowly.


Melee DPS on P99 is calculated as Max Damage = (Mod x Weapon Damage) + Main Hand Bonus (rounded down)

where (Mod) is (Offense Skill + STR) / 100

From the wiki:

For the critera above, a level 40 melee character using a 10 damage weapon, with 200 offense skill and 250 strength, max damage would be calculated as:

Mod = (200 + 150) / 100 = 3.5
Main Hand Bonus = (40 - 25) / 3 = 5
Max Damage = (3.5 x 10) + 5 = 40

Let's say that level 40 character has 100 strength instead of 150. Max hit would then be 35. Let's say 20% of all hits are max hits (the real figure is unknown to us, and is probably lower, more like 10%, but the contribution from strength scales regardless). Over 100 hits, you would do 800 damage with 150 strength (40 x 20). Over 100 hits, you would do 700 damage with 100 strength (35 x 20).

Your typical level 34 kobold from Sol B, a good opponent for a level 40 character, has 1379 HP. Let's say the 10 damage 1hander in the equation above has a delay of 20. Those 100 hits would take 3 minutes 20 seconds. At 150 strength, you would kill the kobold in 344 seconds (5 minutes, 44 seconds). At 100 strength, you would kill the kobold in 394 seconds (6 minutes, 34 seconds).

50 more strength will allow you to kill the kobold 50 seconds faster, or in 87% of the time. A level 34 mob hits for something like 74. Let's say, conservatively, 20% of its hits are max hits. Mob delay is 30. In those 50 seconds, the kobold swings 16 times (rounding down from 16.66, again, conservative), max hits 3 times (rounded down from 3.2), dealing 222 damage. (Again, this doesn't even include the kobold's non-max hits)

So again, how much HP is MAXIMUM MANA FROM INT mitigating at level 40? Jack shit. Mana doesn't even let you cast more lifetaps per unit time, which is the meaningful comparison to strength, just more lifetaps per mana bar. You'd have to cast five lvl 30 lifetaps (that's 315 mana) to get to 222 hp, and every figure above was conservative. The numbers above don't include player or kobold non-max hits. The numbers only get worse for INT at lower levels, with higher strength, with better/faster weapons, and with twohanders. Strength modifies multiplicatively in damage calculations, so the numbers only get worse for INT with STR values higher than 150 vs 100.

[Lune]

Holy shit while searching for the mana formula I came across this gold in reply to DSM:

You do this with incredible consistency to a fuck ton of people on these forums. I said I would respond to you if you misrepresented me. I didn't say I would try to get the last word if you did so. You don't need to make inferences or read between the lines or try and figure out what I mean from what I'm saying. I speak plainly and I'll tell you exactly what I'm saying and what I mean.

You can choose to interpret what I said as excuses if you want. The truth is that all your posts are there for anyone to see. I'm not going to waste my life going through all 4500+ of them. I did a simple spot check of your last 250 and saw exactly what I thought I would see. You are not worth wasting time on. There is nothing to be gained from doing that. I don't care if you think there's no evidence or not. It's all there plain to see if anyone chooses to go and relive all of your inane drivel.

I'm not trying to convince anyone and I'm not attempting to be clever. You use that word a lot though so I'm thinking being clever is extremely important to you, but who knows I could be wrong maybe you just like that word so you use it all the time. My only bias against you is that you're annoying and I wish you just simply didn't exist on the forums. 90% of the time you add nothing of value to the threads you post in. 5% of the time you rehash and consolidate things that people have already said in the thread, so whether that is valuable is up to the eye of the beholder.

It's very clear that I'm far from the only one that has these opinions. Most people are just so tired by your constant misrepresentation and having to get the last word and twisting the things they say that they just stop engaging with you. To be honest I have a hard time thinking I'll ever engage you in conversation in this forum after this thread.

You don't get to decide what I will or won't do. I've already stated the evidence is there and where to find it, I'm not even telling people they have to leave this specific website. I will not admit that I can't and your attempts to spin me as doing so by way of other things I've said or actions I've taken are incorrect. I've chosen the 3rd option which is you're not worth my time.

Feel free to continue to one up me and/or get the last word in. My traitorous brain has already compelled me to waste way more time on this garbage conversation than I should. I will waste no further time on you. I truly hope you find peace and happiness in this world somewhere off of these forums.

Y'all are doing God's work. It's clear that DSM feeds off of chain posting and defending bad advice and y'all are sustaining and nourishing his addiction.

5+ people all with different but good reasons why to go STR and DSM keeps yammering his idealist end-game only bullshit.

Apparently this is a thing and I've fallen victim to it. Totally different thread but asking about STR for a rogue lol

Lies and denial will inherit the Earth

[fortior]

You'd just never go INT, if you wanted to go INT you'd go Erudite for the incredible drip. Mana regen > mana pool, just get a crown of narandi with dkp on your shitter alt and be done with it

[Toxigen]

All these pages and INT still doesn't do shit except for the top 1% of SK players.

[Troxx]

Lune, while I applaud your efforts to educate the fool … you are wasting your breath. This is precisely how we got a 449 page thread where DSM tried to convince the whole damn server that shamans are excellent dps in a fast paced high dps group involving multiple charm pets relative to a mage. You can throw all the knowledge nuggets and spaghetti against the DSM wall but I promise nothing will stick.

DSM when confronted with anything but his own napkin math:

https://media.tenor.com/61_Dk_6lhAYAAAAd/bad-mood-angry.gif

And trust me, you will never (not ever) get the last word. His autism (using this in the strictly DSM-V diagnostic sense … not as an insult) mandates that he always have the final say while simultaneously proclaiming his brilliance.

We all know his modus operandi.

It’s both funny and sad at the same time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Apparently this is a thing and I've fallen victim to it. Totally different thread but asking about STR for a rogue lol

Lies and denial will inherit the Earth

It is unfortunate that you are so desperate to be correct, you would prefer to listen to lies over the truth. I'll get you the numbers so we can finish this debate. I wouldn't suggest taking the easy route like this, it does nothing but make you look silly.

[Troxx]

It is unfortunate that you are so desperate to be correct, you would prefer to listen to lies over the truth. I'll get you the numbers so we can finish this debate. I wouldn't suggest taking the easy route like this, it does nothing but make you look silly.

https://media.tenor.com/9v8LTDyxiWgAAAAC/the-office-dying-of-laughter.gif

[Toxigen]

cu fellas in 25 pages

[Toxigen]

It is unfortunate that you are so desperate to be correct, you would prefer to listen to lies over the truth. I'll get you the numbers so we can finish this debate. I wouldn't suggest taking the easy route like this, it does nothing but make you look silly.

holy fucking pot meet kettle lmao

[Crede]

Ya'll gone and done it again

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did a quick test on Corudoth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

The test is 210 STR vs. 231 STR. I am using https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient_Fire_Etched_Flamberge as my weapon. I have 34% worn haste.

Test 01 (210 STR) - 561 seconds to get him down to 80%. 37,794 Damage, subtracting ripostes. 67.3 DPS
Test 02 (231 STR) - 531 seconds to get him down to 80%. 37,303 Damage, subtracting ripostes. 70.25 DPS
DPS difference: ~3 DPS

Recorded highest hit with 210 STR: 250 Damage
Recorded highest hit with 231 STR: 258 Damage

Total number of 250+ Damage hits across the entire test: 11 hits
Total number of hits across the entire test: 496 hits
Percentage of hits that were max damage or above the 210 STR max damage: 2.2%

At level 60 with a ToV weapon and 34% haste, 21 STR appears to give about 3 DPS.

In the Magelo I provided earlier https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK - I am using Argent Protector and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps as my Weapon + Haste item. This is to show what a lower cost setup would look like for OP.

The ratio of Argent Protector with 22% Haste (SCHW) is 1.04
The ratio of Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge with 34% Haste is 1.40
The difference in ratios is ~25%, so a level 60 with Argent Protector and 22% haste would probably be doing around 50.47 DPS on test 1 and 52.65 DPS on Test 2. The DPS difference drops to ~2.2 DPS.

You would do an additional 8000 damage per hour at level 60 with 2.2 additional DPS, assuming you are auto attacking non-stop. Realistically this number is going to be lower at lower levels, due to lower skills. It is also going to be lower because you are not killing non stop. You will be taking breaks. It is also going to be lower because Corudoth is only level 5, so my DPS was higher on him. You would maybe get 2-3 more Kobolds per hour using Lune's mob. It also looks like my guess of roughly 2% hits will be max was correct.

This isn't going to be a significant boost to your leveling process. As I have stated before, min/maxing the leveling process is a waste, because the whole point of leveling is to get to 60. Once you are there, you no longer receive any benefits from min/maxing the leveling process. If a player is casual, it doesn't matter if they stop playing at level 42 or level 43. The speed isn't relevant to them. If a player wants to get to 60, they will want the best starting stat at level 60, which is INT because it is the hardest to cap.

If you are hyper concerned about getting a few extra kills per hour while leveling, you would go Troll SK. They have much higher STR, and access to Blood Ember Clickies, which will save you more time during the leveling process than Greenmist.

[Crede]

Did a quick test on Corudoth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

The test is 210 STR vs. 231 STR. I am using https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient_Fire_Etched_Flamberge as my weapon. I have 34% worn haste.

Test 01 (210 STR) - 561 seconds to get him down to 80%. 37,794 Damage, subtracting ripostes. 67.3 DPS
Test 02 (231 STR) - 531 seconds to get him down to 80%. 37,303 Damage, subtracting ripostes. 70.25 DPS
DPS difference: ~3 DPS

Recorded highest hit with 210 STR: 250 Damage
Recorded highest hit with 231 STR: 258 Damage

Total number of 250+ Damage hits across the entire test: 11 hits
Total number of hits across the entire test: 496 hits
Percentage of hits that were max damage or above the 210 STR max damage: 2.2%

At level 60 with a ToV weapon, 21 STR appears to give about 3 DPS.

The ratio of Argent Protector with 22% Haste (SCHW) is 1.04
The ratio of Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge with 34% Haste is 1.40
The difference in ratios is ~25%, so a level 60 with Argent Protector and 22% haste would probably be doing around 50.47 DPS on test 1 and 52.65 DPS on Test 2. The DPS difference drops to ~2.2 DPS.

You would do an additional 8000 damage per hour at level 60, assuming you are auto attacking non-stop. Realistically this number is going to be lower at lower levels, due to lower skills. It is also going to be lower because you are not killing non stop. You will be taking breaks. I guess you would get maybe 2-4 more Kobolds per hour using Lune's mob. It also looks like my guess of roughly 2% hits will be max was correct.

This isn't going to be a significant boost to your leveling process. As I have stated before, min/maxing the leveling process is a waste, because the whole point of leveling is to get to 60. Once you are there, you no longer receive any benefits from min/maxing the leveling process. If a player is casual, it doesn't matter if they stop playing at level 42 or level 43. The speed isn't relevant to them. If a player wants to get to 60, they will want the best starting stat at level 60, which is INT because it is the hardest to cap.

If you are hyper concerned about getting a few extra kills per hour while leveling, you would go Troll SK. They have much higher STR, and access to Blood Ember Clickies, which will save you more time during the leveling process than Greenmist.

The problem here is you are using a subjective opinion to support facts about the leveling process. Just because you think the leveling process is a waste to min/max, I don't think min/maxing the leveling process is a waste. An some people just like to get to 60, then move onto another project. And as Lune mentioned, there is data to support the majority of people end up quitting hybrids in their 40s/50s. There's nothing bad about doing this. Some would argue focusing on gearing at 60 is a waste, because we are stuck in Velious, and Velious was beaten in Kunark gear. It's not like later expansions where you truly needed a certain expansion level of gear to move onto the next expansions.

While I generally agree with INT for an SK for multiple reasons, I also went Troll so I didn't have to worry about STR. Had I went DE/Erudite, STR would have been a lot more appealing.

[Toxigen]

Also more carry items more good. Leveling. Bigly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The problem here is you are using a subjective opinion to support facts about the leveling process. Just because you think the leveling process is a waste to min/max, I don't think min/maxing the leveling process is a waste. An some people just like to get to 60, then move onto another project. And as Lune mentioned, there is data to support the majority of people end up quitting hybrids in their 40s/50s. There's nothing bad about doing this. Some would argue focusing on gearing at 60 is a waste, because we are stuck in Velious, and Velious was beaten in Kunark gear. It's not like later expansions where you truly needed a certain expansion level of gear to move onto the next expansions.

While I generally agree with INT for an SK for multiple reasons, I also went Troll so I didn't have to worry about STR. Had I went DE/Erudite, STR would have been a lot more appealing.

I gave the facts about how much faster you would be leveling via 20 STR, which is maybe 2-3 mobs per hour. That is not going to be a highly noticeable increase in the leveling process.

It is not an opinion that the leveling process is designed to get you to max level. That is the entire point of the system.

Starting stats matter the most at level 60, because stats scale based on level. If you are the type of player who only gets to level 40, it doesn't matter where you put your starting stats.

However, Everquest is a long game. People do change their minds about a character years later. It is better to air on the side of caution and assume you will get to level 60. Worst case you don't, and it didn't matter anyway.

As I have stated before, STR is a good choice for characters that start off with no gear and no money. When Green 2.0 comes out, I would generally advise people put their points into STR, since their first character is probably going to be the plat/item farmer anyway. But OP is rolling a character on a server that is at the last P99 patch, and has multiple 60s, which means they can twink this SK. There is no good reason to put your points into STR.

[Jimjam]

.

It is not an opinion that the leveling process is designed to get you to max level. That is the entire point of the system.


The most opiniony opinion that ever was opinioned.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The most opiniony opinion that ever was opinioned.

It isn't. Every system in Everquest (and any other video game) is designed with a purpose. They aren't spontaneously generated and inserted at random.

It is factually true that the leveling system is designed to get you to max level. That doesn't mean everybody will get there, but that is it's purpose.

The only opinion here is the idea that a system designed to increase your level is not designed to increase your level.

[Toxigen]

https://i.imgur.com/5m4Hg3T.gif

[Crede]

It isn't. Every system in Everquest (and any other video game) is designed with a purpose. They aren't spontaneously generated and inserted at random.

It is factually true that the leveling system is designed to get you to max level. That doesn't mean everybody will get there, but that is it's purpose.

Right, but we're on a locked server. That wasn't part of the original design. By going crazy at 60 gearing out, you're just padding your magelo. You're not trying to break into harder content. This could be considered even more dumb then min/maxing the leveling process.

You can kill anything with Kunark gear and the right composition.

[Toxigen]

Right, but we're on a locked server. That wasn't part of the original design. By going crazy at 60 gearing out, you're just padding your magelo. You're not trying to break into harder content. This could be considered even more dumb then min/maxing the leveling process.

You can kill anything with Kunark gear and the right composition.

Normally I'm with ya Crede but low man stuff is a thing. Full BiS is a world of difference from Kunark.

However, going INT on the sole premise of "its the hardest stat to cap" is only relevant for the top 5% of players that will actually take a SK to near/full BiS.

The OP clearly isn't going to do that. He's making an Iksar to do Greenmist. STR is his correct choice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Right, but we're on a locked server. That wasn't part of the original design. By going crazy at 60 gearing out, you're just padding your magelo. You're not trying to break into harder content. This could be considered even more dumb then min/maxing the leveling process.

You can kill anything with Kunark gear and the right composition.

The fact that this is a locked server is irrelevant to the system design. On P99, people still progress linearly from levels 1-60. It doesn't matter if the max level is 60 or 120, because you are still linearly progressing in levels. The core purpose of the leveling system is still intact, and unchanged.

The only way you could begin to suggest that the leveling system is not a linear progression system is to prove P99 does things like randomly set a player's level. For example, if you logged in and your level 30 character became a level 54 character. Please do not bring up someone who has de-leveled by dying while AFK. They are losing XP in a linear fashion, not immediately jumping from level 60 to level 30.

People do enjoy getting end game gear, otherwise they wouldn't do it. I am not sure why you are trying to argue that gaining better loot in a game designed around gaining better loot is pointless. If you truly believed that, you would stop playing the game.

The reality is the +20 STR is not going to help OP enough during the leveling process to justify the detriment you get at level 60. I showed the data for this here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 . The detriment of putting your points into STR comes from the simple fact that STR is very easy to cap in the higher levels, so the +20 STR will end up being wasted.

If they put their points into INT and stop at level 43, their experience will be no different than if they put their points into STR and stop at level 43. You simply aren't getting enough of a boost for it to matter on a twinked character. It's better to put your points into INT assuming you will get to 60. Then you don't have to worry about it later when you decide to start playing your level 43 SK you stopped playing a year ago.

[Lune]

Lune, while I applaud your efforts to educate the fool … you are wasting your breath. This is precisely how we got a 449 page thread where DSM tried to convince the whole damn server that shamans are excellent dps in a fast paced high dps group involving multiple charm pets relative to a mage. You can throw all the knowledge nuggets and spaghetti against the DSM wall but I promise nothing will stick.

DSM when confronted with anything but his own napkin math:

And trust me, you will never (not ever) get the last word. His autism (using this in the strictly DSM-V diagnostic sense … not as an insult) mandates that he always have the final say while simultaneously proclaiming his brilliance.

We all know his modus operandi.

It’s both funny and sad at the same time.

holy fucking pot meet kettle lmao

Ya'll gone and done it again

Yea I knew from this thread this guy didn't have the best relationship with logic and seeing the big picture, but I had no idea it was an every-thread thing.

[Troxx]

Did a quick test on Corudoth. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

The test is 210 STR vs. 231 STR. I am using https://wiki.project1999.com/Ancient_Fire_Etched_Flamberge as my weapon. I have 34% worn haste.

Test 01 (210 STR) - 561 seconds to get him down to 80%. 37,794 Damage, subtracting ripostes. 67.3 DPS
Test 02 (231 STR) - 531 seconds to get him down to 80%. 37,303 Damage, subtracting ripostes. 70.25 DPS
DPS difference: ~3 DPS


I genuinely appreciate your effort. Seriously. No sarcasm.

But it is worth pointing out that you are a level 60 sk fighting a level 5 mob. I don’t think a leveling sk will be hunting mobs 55 levels beneath them. Your attack vs it’s defense and the level difference makes the parse a lot less relevant to the discussion at hand.

You’re a SK. You can FD. Why not go find a good, solidly blue xp mob and repeat.

Clock the time it takes you to drop it to 20%. FD and let it reset and regen up to 100. Rinse and repeat a few times at each str level. The mob being closer to your level will indeed have an greater impact on relative dps (str value vs str value) than parsing a on a level 5 mob.

If you want to make it even more relevant, take off some gear and test like 140 vs 160 strength.

Again DSM - I am very appreciative of you doing some leg work. This is a vast improvement in your behavior. It is unlike what you did (or didn’t do) in the shaman vs mage in a high dps group thread … where you never actually did/tried it … or did do it but didn’t like the results and therefore never posted your results.

Kudos where kudos are due. Please carry on!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea I knew from this thread this guy didn't have the best relationship with logic and seeing the big picture, but I had no idea it was an every-thread thing.

This is a complete fabrication. Lies are irrelevant. I gave you the data you requested here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105

Remember when you said:

If you find more accurate numbers that show INT performing better I'll admit I'm wrong, because I'm capable of doing that, and we will all have learned something.

Are you going to honor this?


Again DSM - I am very appreciative of you doing some leg work. This is a vast improvement in your behavior. It is unlike what you did (or didn’t do) in the shaman vs mage in a high dps group thread … where you never actually did/tried it … or did do it but didn’t like the results and therefore never posted your results.

Kudos where kudos are due. Please carry on!

I usually do the leg work. I did the legwork in the thread you are referring to as well. You are simply too busy trolling to notice. If you improved your behavior, you may learn a thing or two:) Your troll tactic of claiming all evidence you disagree with is irrelevant is not a valid method of providing evidence of your own. We are still waiting on evidence from you.

[Troxx]

Yea I knew from this thread this guy didn't have the best relationship with logic and seeing the big picture, but I had no idea it was an every-thread thing.

Oh yeah … it’s an every time thing in every thread where someone comes to a different conclusion.

It’s nothing new.

[Lune]

Are you going to honor this?

You don't deserve any more engagement from me; you don't reason in good faith. I'm not going to point out the flaws in your "test". If you want to proclaim victory and get the last word, go for it. Anyone reading this thread with intact analytical abilities can judge for themselves.

PEACE

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't deserve any more engagement from me; you don't reason in good faith. I'm not going to point out the flaws in your "test". If you want to proclaim victory and get the last word, go for it. Anyone reading this thread with intact analytical abilities can judge for themselves.

PEACE

Thank you for conceding via a temper tantrum. Simply proclaiming there are flaws without explaining what they are is irrelevant.

[Troxx]

I'm not going to point out the flaws in your "test".


I already did. I only hope he takes my advice and repeats it on a level-relevant mob that isn’t 55 below him. My bet is the dps difference will be larger.

After we get his input then the debate can begin properly on whether that extra 20 intelligence actually makes a hill of beans difference.


(Spoiler: It won’t without some serious theory-crafting with cherry picked “what if” situations where both SKs start off at 100% mana)

[Lune]

I can only imagine what it's like to deal with this guy at work.

"Sales are down 13% this quarter"

"Actually..."

[Troxx]

I can only imagine what it's like to deal with this guy at work.


https://i.gifer.com/8Szg.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I already did. I only hope he takes my advice and repeats it on a level-relevant mob that isn’t 55 below him. My bet is the dps difference will be larger.

After we get his input then the debate can begin properly on whether that extra 20 intelligence actually makes a hill of beans difference.

(I already won’t without some serious theory-crafting with cherry picked “what if” situations where both SKs start off at 100% mana)

You didnt point out any flaws. You are missing the entire point. The test I did is the best case scenario in terms of a DPS increase.

Fighting a mob closer to my level will simply lower the DPS done, and the DPS difference. You don't understand the forumlas if you think extra mitigation will somehow increase the DPS differences in 20 STR.

If your claim is the DPS difference will be larger, you need to prove it. Like the other thread you referenced, you simply keep asking everybody else to prove your own points.

[Troxx]

Fighting a mob closer to my level will simply lower the DPS done, and the DPS difference.

It will lower your total dps yes. It will widen the dps gap when you are fighting something not trivial.

I’m 100% confident. I, unlike you, apparently understand how melee damage works in this game. It is a function of your attack, the mobs level, the mobs ac, your strength etc. the closer the mob is to your level, the more important relative attack (influenced directly by strength) is.

This is pretty basic NerdQuest knowledge man.

Go find a good dark blue mob and repeat.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It will lower your total dps yes. It will widen the dps gap when you are fighting something not trivial.

I’m 100% confident. I, unlike you, apparently understand how melee damage works in this game. It is a function of your attack, the mobs level, the mobs ac, your strength etc. the closer the mob is to your level, the more important relative attack (influenced directly by strength) is.

This is pretty basic NerdQuest knowledge man.

This is simply not true. If the DPS difference is 3, and overall DPS is reduced by 25%, the difference is also reduced by 25%. I showed that here https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105

You won't provide evidence that shows the contrary, since that is your normal behavior. Please stop lying and trolling, it just hurts other people reading this.

[Troxx]

I don’t think you’re reading. Fighting a level 5 mob you are going to get a much more favorable hit spread (base damage + 1-20DI) than fighting a level appropriate mob. Damage bonus remains identical regardless and is a function of your level and weapon delay for 2 handers.

If fighting a level appropriate mob your average DI (1-20) per hit will be higher with 20 extra strength. That 3% will be bigger when more strength skews your damage interval to higher intervals with higher relative attack vs the mobs ac.

Max hits are gonna happen all the damn time when you parse vs a level 5 mob.

It’s not just about max hit.

This is basic NerdQuest knowledge.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t think you’re reading. Fighting a level 5 mob you are going to get a much more favorable hit spread (base damage + 1-20DI) than fighting a level appropriate mob. Damage bonus remains identical regardless and is a function of your level and weapon delay for 2 handers.

If fighting a level appropriate mob your average DI (1-20) per hit will be higher with 20 extra strength. That 3% will be bigger when more strength skews your damage interval to higher intervals with higher relative attack vs the mobs ac.

Max hits are gonna happen all the damn time when you parse vs a level 5 mob.

It’s not just about max hit.

This is basic NerdQuest knowledge.

If you think you understand the formulas better, please post the formulas you are using and plug in the data so we can see what you are referring to. Or you can provide a video of your own showing a different DPS difference. Simply saying "I am right, and you are wrong" is irrelevant. I have provided actual in-game data here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105. You have provided nothing but trolling.

I don't even understand what you mean by "Max hits are gonna happen all the damn time when you parse vs a level 5 mob."

If you read my post, you would see I got 11 max hits out of 496 hits on said level 5 mob lol. That is a 2.2% chance of getting a max hit. A far cry from "gonna happen all the damn time". If you are incorrect on the assumption that max hits are going to happen more often on a low level mob, perhaps you are wrong in your other assumptions too?

[Troxx]

It will lower your total dps yes. It will widen the dps gap when you are fighting something not trivial.

I’m 100% confident. I, unlike you, apparently understand how melee damage works in this game. It is a function of your attack, the mobs level, the mobs ac, your strength etc. the closer the mob is to your level, the more important relative attack (influenced directly by strength) is.

This is pretty basic NerdQuest knowledge man.

Go find a good dark blue mob and repeat.

Fighting two different mobs with the same ac but different levels - you will land hits more reliably and for a higher DI on the lower level mob.

In two instances of fighting the same mob with the same level and the same ac - you will land higher DI spreads the more attack (influenced by strength) you have.

You have chosen an extraordinary (not typical) level 5 mob. You have such a dramatic level advantage that your parse is not fully relevant. There is still value in the parse but your data would be more meaningful vs a more realistic target.

Please repeat your methods on a mob that is not 55 levels below you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Fighting two different mobs with the same ac but different levels - you will land hits more reliably and for a higher DI on the lower level mob.

In two instances of fighting the same mob with the same level and the same ac - you will land higher DI spreads the more attack (influenced by strength) you have.

You have chosen an extraordinary (not typical) level 5 mob.

Please repeat your methods on a mob that is not 55 levels below you.

Please explain what you meant here:


"Max hits are gonna happen all the damn time when you parse vs a level 5 mob."


If you read my post https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 , you would see I got 11 max hits out of 496 hits on said level 5 mob. That is a 2.2% chance of getting a max hit. This data is directly contradicting your point.

Are you conceding that you were incorrect on this point?

I am still waiting for you to provide the formulas you are using, as well as the data you are plugging in to said formulas. This should be an easy one for you if this is "basic knowledge".

[Lune]

DSM is just clearly not intellectually qualified to be dealing with this.

What a shame because he's gonna keep flooding the forum with bad advice stated confidently.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM is just clearly not intellectually qualified to be dealing with this.

What a shame because he's gonna keep flooding the forum with bad advice stated confidently.

Continuing to double down on your tantrum simply makes you look silly, and continues to show you have conceded that you were wrong. I wouldn't advise you continue to make yourself look bad like this.

If you think I am incorrect, you need to provide more than a temper tantrum.

I have provided in-game evidence here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 . Other people can do the same if they think they can prove that my data isn't correct for whatever reason.

I really do hope someone can provide something, so we can discuss it. I won't hold my breath, however. Posters like Troxx will simply keep asking other people to provide evidence for the points they are making. That isn't how this works. If you make a claim, you need to provide the evidence.

Troxx has already been proven wrong on this claim about the damage formulas:


"Max hits are gonna happen all the damn time when you parse vs a level 5 mob."


I only got 11 max hits out of 496 hits. The data is directly contradicting his statement. He needs to explain himself, and show his work on how he is coming to these kinds of conclusions.

[Troxx]

Your abysmal rate of max hits indicates Mr Turtle has extraordinarily high ac. That, along with level, is a but one component of the equation. I get a much higher percentage of max hits hunting dark blues deep in the bowels of seb than you got on Mr Turtle. This mob is well known to be an anomaly that doesn’t follow the rules.

Mr Turtle is a great target for comparing weapon setup vs weapon setup dps for sure. He is not an ideal target for parsing the functional difference 20 str will net you. Looking at it in reverse, he also would not be a good target for parsing the benefits of higher scaling armor class values on a tank in defensive parses. Your results ain’t gonna translate to how well 100-300 ac will help you tanking high level dark blue mobs or Avatar of War. The level gap is too large.

Go find a dark blue con mob. The closer you can get to your level without making the completion of the parse/test super annoying or time consuming the better.

Whatever the results of your test, it will be a much more valid point to use as a starting point for then discussing the relative value of a little bit more total mana vs higher permanent damage output and better weight carrying capacity on a low strength race.

I applaud your effort man. I do. Re-doing your test on an appropriate target will take a fraction of the time you are spending typing replies in this thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your abysmal rate of max hits indicates Mr Turtle has extraordinarily high ac. That, along with level, is a one component of the equation.

Mr Turtle is a great target for comparing weapon setup vs weapon setup dps for sure. He is not an ideal target for parsing the functional difference 20 str will net you.

Go find a dark blue con mob. The closer you can get to your level without making the completion of the parse/test super annoying or time consuming the better.

Whatever the results of your test, it will be a much more valid point to use as a starting point for then discussing the relative value of a little bit more total mana vs higher permanent damage output and better weight carrying capacity on a low strength race.

I applaud your effort man. I do. Re-doing your test on an appropriate target will take a fraction of the time you are spending typing replies in this thread.

No. You need to provide the formulas you are using, and/or an example video. You cannot simply keep asking other people to prove your points for you, while claiming all data is invalid. This is extremely poor behavior.

The reason why you made this mistake about how max hits work is because you do not understand the damage formulas. You clearly are not confident in your theory. If you were, you would simply provide the formulas and plug in the data. As you said earlier: "This is pretty basic NerdQuest knowledge man."

Here is my data so far: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The low hit rate on turtle means it has high avoidance, not high ac.



At level 60 your attack is gonna be squelching the targets defence (unless it also has insane ac, which i suppose is likely) no matter the str. I’m actually amazed there was a discernable difference at all. I suppose that comes down to the slight improvement to max hit.

Your test basically completely eliminates the attack vs ac comparison, into which str plays a role.

Again, what you do not understand is that additional mitigation will not increase the DPS difference between 160 and 180 strength. That isn't how the formulas work.

If a mob is mitigating 20% more damage based on ac, level, etc., you will simply do 20% less damage.

[Troxx]

If a mob is mitigating 20% more damage based on ac, level, etc., you will simply do 20% less damage.

Base damage is static. If you hit you get all of it.
Damage bonus is static. If you hit, you get all of it.
Damage interval (1-20) is what is affected in the level vs level, attack vs ac

Mobs don’t just mitigate dmg a flat percent with level and ac, they accomplish this by lowering the average DI and also influencing your relative chance to hit.

We know how much per swing damage strength gives you - that’s not hard to calculate/parse and your parse does demonstrate this.

But str doesn’t just affect swing damage, it also directly influences attack.

What your parse on a level 5 anomaly doesn’t do is accurately give a picture of how the “fancy dance” between mob level/ac and your level/attack impact damage output. The level variance is simply too high. You chose a convenient but inappropriate target.

Go find a solid dark blue (preferably a few levels above the blue/green threshold) and run a few cycles. You are a sk and can FD to reset the mob, a distinct advantage for parse comparison as you are literally using the same exact mob in each round.

You, as a sk, are in the unique position to control every variable and keep everything but your strength value identical.

[Lune]

^ as you said, nevermind that it's going to take more than a few rounds to get good data, not one round for each scenario

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have data from all the rats I killed in PoM rat maze to get to 60. These are mid to high level 40s. As per usual, I am providing data, you are providing nothing but a request for me to prove your points.


Line 5300: [Sun Jul 30 15:13:15 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 6662: [Sun Jul 30 16:31:09 2023] You slash Teriling for 225 points of damage.
Line 7556: [Sun Jul 30 16:50:39 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 7582: [Sun Jul 30 16:50:54 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 7716: [Sun Jul 30 16:51:55 2023] You slash Teriling for 223 points of damage.
Line 8482: [Sun Jul 30 17:01:53 2023] You slash Teriling for 225 points of damage.
Line 8532: [Sun Jul 30 17:02:17 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 8721: [Sun Jul 30 17:03:37 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 9092: [Sun Jul 30 17:08:06 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 9127: [Sun Jul 30 17:08:33 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 9630: [Sun Jul 30 17:15:04 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 9645: [Sun Jul 30 17:15:19 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 9860: [Sun Jul 30 17:20:55 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 10430: [Sun Jul 30 17:26:50 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 11679: [Sun Jul 30 17:40:25 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 12263: [Sun Jul 30 17:51:28 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 13804: [Sun Jul 30 18:23:44 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 14697: [Sun Jul 30 18:35:09 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 15467: [Sun Jul 30 19:52:58 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 16614: [Sun Jul 30 20:06:49 2023] You slash Teriling for 223 points of damage.
Line 16672: [Sun Jul 30 20:07:26 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 16773: [Sun Jul 30 20:08:21 2023] You slash Teriling for 228 points of damage.
Line 17977: [Sun Jul 30 20:24:37 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 18328: [Sun Jul 30 20:56:43 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 18834: [Sun Jul 30 21:01:34 2023] You slash Teriling for 222 points of damage.
Line 20535: [Sun Jul 30 21:24:58 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 21158: [Sun Jul 30 21:52:20 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 25044: [Mon Jul 31 18:53:06 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 28812: [Mon Jul 31 20:41:42 2023] You slash Teriling for 225 points of damage.
Line 29514: [Mon Jul 31 20:48:36 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 29534: [Mon Jul 31 20:48:47 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 29596: [Mon Jul 31 20:49:13 2023] You slash Teriling for 223 points of damage.
Line 29676: [Mon Jul 31 20:49:58 2023] You slash Teriling for 228 points of damage.
Line 31381: [Mon Jul 31 21:12:07 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 33128: [Mon Jul 31 21:33:45 2023] You slash Teriling for 223 points of damage.
Line 34176: [Mon Jul 31 21:46:31 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 39620: [Tue Aug 01 08:09:03 2023] You slash Teriling for 228 points of damage.
Line 39956: [Tue Aug 01 08:12:40 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 40808: [Tue Aug 01 08:29:12 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 41286: [Tue Aug 01 08:35:49 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 41305: [Tue Aug 01 08:36:06 2023] You slash Teriling for 223 points of damage.
Line 44824: [Tue Aug 01 09:29:45 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 47856: [Tue Aug 01 10:09:41 2023] You slash Teriling for 222 points of damage.
Line 50298: [Tue Aug 01 15:12:34 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 50369: [Tue Aug 01 15:13:22 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 41553: [Wed Jul 12 23:17:01 2023] You slash Teriling for 222 points of damage.
Line 41580: [Wed Jul 12 23:17:19 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 43784: [Thu Jul 13 19:52:28 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 53104: [Thu Jul 13 22:10:41 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 56666: [Sat Jul 15 10:14:32 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 61915: [Sun Jul 16 14:27:59 2023] You slash Teriling for 228 points of damage.
Line 62007: [Sun Jul 16 14:29:00 2023] You slash Teriling for 222 points of damage.
Line 62048: [Sun Jul 16 14:29:12 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 62994: [Sun Jul 16 14:42:29 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 63182: [Sun Jul 16 14:44:04 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 63206: [Sun Jul 16 14:44:16 2023] You slash Teriling for 228 points of damage.
Line 63500: [Sun Jul 16 15:10:00 2023] You slash Teriling for 222 points of damage.
Line 63576: [Sun Jul 16 15:10:44 2023] You slash Teriling for 224 points of damage.
Line 63685: [Sun Jul 16 15:11:40 2023] You slash Teriling for 223 points of damage.
Line 63750: [Sun Jul 16 15:12:30 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 63928: [Sun Jul 16 15:17:26 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 64191: [Sun Jul 16 15:19:57 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 64331: [Sun Jul 16 15:21:39 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 70094: [Sun Jul 16 17:10:05 2023] You slash Teriling for 227 points of damage.
Line 71514: [Sun Jul 16 17:27:25 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 71524: [Sun Jul 16 17:27:31 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 76698: [Mon Jul 17 06:36:44 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 77857: [Mon Jul 17 07:03:18 2023] You slash Teriling for 220 points of damage.
Line 78846: [Mon Jul 17 07:19:30 2023] You slash Teriling for 222 points of damage.
Line 80685: [Wed Jul 19 09:09:38 2023] You slash Teriling for 228 points of damage.
Line 81184: [Wed Jul 19 09:20:49 2023] You slash Teriling for 223 points of damage.
Line 84670: [Tue Jul 25 19:23:29 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 84939: [Tue Jul 25 19:25:55 2023] You slash Teriling for 221 points of damage.
Line 93618: [Fri Jul 28 13:15:02 2023] You slash Teriling for 222 points of damage.
Line 93729: [Fri Jul 28 13:15:51 2023] You slash Teriling for 223 points of damage.
Line 94931: [Fri Jul 28 13:34:40 2023] You slash Teriling for 225 points of damage.
Line 98900: [Fri Jul 28 16:24:08 2023] You slash Teriling for 228 points of damage.
Line 105468: [Sat Jul 29 19:55:58 2023] You slash Teriling for 226 points of damage.
Line 50441: [Tue Aug 01 15:13:46 2023] You slash Teriling for 234 points of damage.

Line 5532: [Sun Jul 30 15:15:18 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 5995: [Sun Jul 30 15:21:44 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 7758: [Sun Jul 30 16:52:28 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 8369: [Sun Jul 30 17:00:28 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 8780: [Sun Jul 30 17:04:25 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 9189: [Sun Jul 30 17:09:15 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 9651: [Sun Jul 30 17:15:24 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 10060: [Sun Jul 30 17:22:58 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 10476: [Sun Jul 30 17:27:34 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 11739: [Sun Jul 30 17:41:14 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 12152: [Sun Jul 30 17:47:38 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 13952: [Sun Jul 30 18:25:23 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 14976: [Sun Jul 30 18:37:57 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 15691: [Sun Jul 30 19:55:19 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 16892: [Sun Jul 30 20:09:23 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 18168: [Sun Jul 30 20:26:16 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 18534: [Sun Jul 30 20:58:39 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 18966: [Sun Jul 30 21:03:02 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 19458: [Sun Jul 30 21:09:47 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 20099: [Sun Jul 30 21:18:15 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 20861: [Sun Jul 30 21:28:30 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 21286: [Sun Jul 30 21:53:43 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 25199: [Mon Jul 31 18:54:33 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 28882: [Mon Jul 31 20:42:10 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 29333: [Mon Jul 31 20:46:19 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 29677: [Mon Jul 31 20:49:58 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 31718: [Mon Jul 31 21:15:08 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 32065: [Mon Jul 31 21:21:16 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 33136: [Mon Jul 31 21:33:51 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 33876: [Mon Jul 31 21:41:56 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 34248: [Mon Jul 31 21:47:13 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 34642: [Mon Jul 31 21:55:03 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 38273: [Tue Aug 01 07:17:51 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 39643: [Tue Aug 01 08:09:18 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 40048: [Tue Aug 01 08:13:54 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 41005: [Tue Aug 01 08:31:37 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 41322: [Tue Aug 01 08:36:18 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 42009: [Tue Aug 01 08:44:40 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 44521: [Tue Aug 01 09:26:25 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 44873: [Tue Aug 01 09:30:26 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 47206: [Tue Aug 01 09:59:31 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 47970: [Tue Aug 01 10:10:43 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 50521: [Tue Aug 01 15:14:44 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 51180: [Tue Aug 01 15:21:35 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 41610: [Wed Jul 12 23:17:48 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 44028: [Thu Jul 13 19:54:31 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 45225: [Thu Jul 13 20:10:30 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 46729: [Thu Jul 13 20:34:18 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 47325: [Thu Jul 13 20:40:21 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 53684: [Thu Jul 13 22:21:30 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 57070: [Sat Jul 15 10:17:39 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 60117: [Sun Jul 16 08:47:02 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 60478: [Sun Jul 16 08:51:09 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 61861: [Sun Jul 16 14:27:02 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 62216: [Sun Jul 16 14:30:33 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 62605: [Sun Jul 16 14:34:46 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 62953: [Sun Jul 16 14:41:41 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 63268: [Sun Jul 16 14:44:56 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 63751: [Sun Jul 16 15:12:30 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 64233: [Sun Jul 16 15:20:27 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 64695: [Sun Jul 16 15:24:09 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 69410: [Sun Jul 16 16:49:36 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 70538: [Sun Jul 16 17:13:32 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 71602: [Sun Jul 16 17:28:35 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 71976: [Sun Jul 16 17:33:19 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 73141: [Sun Jul 16 17:51:32 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 76953: [Mon Jul 17 06:39:38 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 77697: [Mon Jul 17 07:01:24 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 78064: [Mon Jul 17 07:05:26 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 79321: [Mon Jul 17 07:24:42 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 80790: [Wed Jul 19 09:10:38 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 81447: [Wed Jul 19 09:23:08 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 84986: [Tue Jul 25 19:26:26 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 88486: [Fri Jul 28 10:52:01 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 91522: [Fri Jul 28 12:37:27 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 92414: [Fri Jul 28 12:56:16 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 93870: [Fri Jul 28 13:16:43 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 95271: [Fri Jul 28 13:37:28 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 95728: [Fri Jul 28 13:44:57 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 98629: [Fri Jul 28 16:20:48 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 99008: [Fri Jul 28 16:25:06 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 100807: [Fri Jul 28 16:52:36 2023] You have slain Teriling!
Line 105541: [Sat Jul 29 19:56:42 2023] You have slain Teriling!

79 high damage hits total
2385 hits on a Teriling total

Line 2991: [Sun Jul 30 14:43:07 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 11000: [Sun Jul 30 17:33:54 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 14414: [Sun Jul 30 18:30:51 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 15182: [Sun Jul 30 19:07:35 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 15272: [Sun Jul 30 19:08:33 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 17273: [Sun Jul 30 20:13:54 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 220 points of damage.
Line 17390: [Sun Jul 30 20:14:52 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 20349: [Sun Jul 30 21:22:13 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 220 points of damage.
Line 22692: [Mon Jul 31 18:21:32 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 28049: [Mon Jul 31 20:24:42 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 228 points of damage.
Line 28473: [Mon Jul 31 20:36:14 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 221 points of damage.
Line 29830: [Mon Jul 31 20:51:45 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 228 points of damage.
Line 31075: [Mon Jul 31 21:08:41 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 228 points of damage.
Line 31096: [Mon Jul 31 21:08:56 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 228 points of damage.
Line 31182: [Mon Jul 31 21:09:45 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 221 points of damage.
Line 42595: [Tue Aug 01 08:52:48 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 42778: [Tue Aug 01 08:54:16 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 224 points of damage.
Line 45372: [Tue Aug 01 09:36:21 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 220 points of damage.
Line 45462: [Tue Aug 01 09:37:14 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 45908: [Tue Aug 01 09:43:57 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 229 points of damage.
Line 45986: [Tue Aug 01 09:44:29 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 46101: [Tue Aug 01 09:45:13 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 221 points of damage.
Line 48365: [Tue Aug 01 10:20:44 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 50038: [Tue Aug 01 15:10:06 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 220 points of damage.
Line 42825: [Thu Jul 13 17:11:13 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 220 points of damage.
Line 42968: [Thu Jul 13 17:12:17 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 221 points of damage.
Line 49219: [Thu Jul 13 21:09:44 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 50390: [Thu Jul 13 21:28:48 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 222 points of damage.
Line 50410: [Thu Jul 13 21:29:06 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 50453: [Thu Jul 13 21:29:35 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 51896: [Thu Jul 13 21:47:30 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 222 points of damage.
Line 53014: [Thu Jul 13 22:08:42 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 56395: [Sat Jul 15 10:11:35 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 56458: [Sat Jul 15 10:11:58 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 60835: [Sun Jul 16 08:57:58 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 70599: [Sun Jul 16 17:16:27 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 220 points of damage.
Line 70698: [Sun Jul 16 17:17:19 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 224 points of damage.
Line 74198: [Sun Jul 16 21:39:44 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 74504: [Sun Jul 16 21:43:08 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 224 points of damage.
Line 74886: [Sun Jul 16 21:50:26 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 79436: [Wed Jul 19 08:54:04 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 224 points of damage.
Line 81537: [Wed Jul 19 09:26:28 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 224 points of damage.
Line 81546: [Wed Jul 19 09:26:37 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 81600: [Wed Jul 19 09:27:09 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 223 points of damage.
Line 81631: [Wed Jul 19 09:27:27 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 86646: [Tue Jul 25 20:55:43 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 220 points of damage.
Line 87994: [Tue Jul 25 21:11:42 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 228 points of damage.
Line 91151: [Fri Jul 28 12:31:03 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 91995: [Fri Jul 28 12:49:37 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 227 points of damage.
Line 93999: [Fri Jul 28 13:18:03 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 228 points of damage.
Line 96532: [Fri Jul 28 15:57:45 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 226 points of damage.
Line 96653: [Fri Jul 28 15:58:53 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 221 points of damage.
Line 98147: [Fri Jul 28 16:15:23 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 227 points of damage.
Line 99237: [Fri Jul 28 16:29:26 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 224 points of damage.
Line 99425: [Fri Jul 28 16:32:40 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 99919: [Fri Jul 28 16:39:49 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 99965: [Fri Jul 28 16:40:16 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 221 points of damage.
Line 102353: [Sat Jul 29 18:47:58 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 225 points of damage.
Line 191: [Sun Jul 30 13:51:20 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 230 points of damage.
Line 449: [Sun Jul 30 13:52:46 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 237 points of damage.
Line 1687: [Sun Jul 30 14:07:17 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 23 points of damage.
Line 50841: [Tue Aug 01 15:17:47 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 237 points of damage.
Line 283: [Sun Jul 30 13:51:46 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 247 points of damage.
Line 462: [Sun Jul 30 13:52:54 2023] You slash Ratman Rager for 241 points of damage.

Line 474: [Sun Jul 30 13:53:00 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 1996: [Sun Jul 30 14:09:04 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 2391: [Sun Jul 30 14:34:41 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 2638: [Sun Jul 30 14:37:48 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 3271: [Sun Jul 30 14:45:53 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 3613: [Sun Jul 30 14:49:46 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 4459: [Sun Jul 30 15:00:30 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 4833: [Sun Jul 30 15:07:50 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 8026: [Sun Jul 30 16:56:11 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 11251: [Sun Jul 30 17:36:09 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 12730: [Sun Jul 30 17:56:59 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 13535: [Sun Jul 30 18:20:20 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 14520: [Sun Jul 30 18:31:53 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 15357: [Sun Jul 30 19:09:41 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 16212: [Sun Jul 30 20:01:32 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 17449: [Sun Jul 30 20:15:33 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 20449: [Sun Jul 30 21:23:15 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 21674: [Mon Jul 31 18:09:41 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 22077: [Mon Jul 31 18:15:02 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 22810: [Mon Jul 31 18:22:21 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 26195: [Mon Jul 31 19:06:04 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 27152: [Mon Jul 31 20:16:07 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 28158: [Mon Jul 31 20:25:38 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 28498: [Mon Jul 31 20:36:36 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 29933: [Mon Jul 31 20:53:03 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 31264: [Mon Jul 31 21:10:38 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 35007: [Mon Jul 31 21:58:55 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 38616: [Tue Aug 01 07:56:56 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 39310: [Tue Aug 01 08:06:18 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 40317: [Tue Aug 01 08:17:32 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 40673: [Tue Aug 01 08:27:30 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 42791: [Tue Aug 01 08:54:28 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 45469: [Tue Aug 01 09:37:20 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 46175: [Tue Aug 01 09:45:49 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 48260: [Tue Aug 01 10:16:50 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 48603: [Tue Aug 01 10:22:19 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 49286: [Tue Aug 01 10:27:03 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 50149: [Tue Aug 01 15:11:04 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 50872: [Tue Aug 01 15:18:13 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 43132: [Thu Jul 13 17:13:40 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 45864: [Thu Jul 13 20:24:26 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 49174: [Thu Jul 13 21:07:45 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 49466: [Thu Jul 13 21:11:44 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 50636: [Thu Jul 13 21:30:48 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 51331: [Thu Jul 13 21:39:46 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 51930: [Thu Jul 13 21:47:45 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 54557: [Fri Jul 14 08:14:50 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 56621: [Sat Jul 15 10:13:05 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 58552: [Sat Jul 15 10:41:21 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 60785: [Sun Jul 16 08:57:15 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 61128: [Sun Jul 16 09:00:49 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 70918: [Sun Jul 16 17:19:07 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 71201: [Sun Jul 16 17:23:40 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 72816: [Sun Jul 16 17:44:56 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 74121: [Sun Jul 16 21:37:09 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 74432: [Sun Jul 16 21:42:01 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 75119: [Sun Jul 16 21:52:41 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 76374: [Mon Jul 17 06:32:00 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 79726: [Wed Jul 19 08:56:42 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 81731: [Wed Jul 19 09:28:35 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 82462: [Wed Jul 19 09:39:28 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 83698: [Fri Jul 21 08:30:50 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 86083: [Tue Jul 25 19:39:46 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 86429: [Tue Jul 25 19:44:37 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 86749: [Tue Jul 25 20:57:00 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 87039: [Tue Jul 25 21:00:14 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 87401: [Tue Jul 25 21:04:54 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 88042: [Tue Jul 25 21:12:21 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 91217: [Fri Jul 28 12:31:58 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 92144: [Fri Jul 28 12:51:20 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 94149: [Fri Jul 28 13:19:26 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 96803: [Fri Jul 28 16:00:50 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 98182: [Fri Jul 28 16:15:49 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 99316: [Fri Jul 28 16:30:16 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 99846: [Fri Jul 28 16:39:14 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 100100: [Fri Jul 28 16:41:25 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 101484: [Fri Jul 28 17:05:54 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 101797: [Fri Jul 28 17:09:27 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 102411: [Sat Jul 29 18:48:40 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!
Line 103225: [Sat Jul 29 18:57:52 2023] You have slain Ratman Rager!

61 high damage hits total
1802 hits on Ratman Rager total

Line 766: [Sun Jul 30 13:56:24 2023] You slash a Ratling for 220 points of damage.
Line 836: [Sun Jul 30 13:56:44 2023] You slash a Ratling for 225 points of damage.
Line 2825: [Sun Jul 30 14:41:10 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 12984: [Sun Jul 30 18:13:13 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 13076: [Sun Jul 30 18:14:06 2023] You slash a Ratling for 220 points of damage.
Line 17101: [Sun Jul 30 20:11:48 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 17154: [Sun Jul 30 20:12:26 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 23090: [Mon Jul 31 18:25:42 2023] You slash a Ratling for 226 points of damage.
Line 25840: [Mon Jul 31 19:02:30 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 30852: [Mon Jul 31 21:06:27 2023] You slash a Ratling for 225 points of damage.
Line 33312: [Mon Jul 31 21:36:07 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 36572: [Tue Aug 01 06:35:34 2023] You slash a Ratling for 226 points of damage.
Line 37274: [Tue Aug 01 06:46:38 2023] You slash a Ratling for 223 points of damage.
Line 37399: [Tue Aug 01 07:01:41 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 38862: [Tue Aug 01 08:00:56 2023] You slash a Ratling for 225 points of damage.
Line 41582: [Tue Aug 01 08:39:11 2023] You slash a Ratling for 223 points of damage.
Line 43239: [Tue Aug 01 09:13:07 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 44184: [Tue Aug 01 09:22:51 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 47430: [Tue Aug 01 10:05:24 2023] You slash a Ratling for 229 points of damage.
Line 48738: [Tue Aug 01 10:23:40 2023] You slash a Ratling for 220 points of damage.
Line 42539: [Thu Jul 13 17:07:31 2023] You slash a Ratling for 222 points of damage.
Line 42677: [Thu Jul 13 17:08:57 2023] You slash a Ratling for 220 points of damage.
Line 43381: [Thu Jul 13 17:17:28 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 44651: [Thu Jul 13 20:03:20 2023] You slash a Ratling for 226 points of damage.
Line 47445: [Thu Jul 13 20:45:55 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 47509: [Thu Jul 13 20:46:24 2023] You slash a Ratling for 220 points of damage.
Line 47944: [Thu Jul 13 20:53:14 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 48714: [Thu Jul 13 21:02:52 2023] You slash a Ratling for 222 points of damage.
Line 50703: [Thu Jul 13 21:33:29 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 50705: [Thu Jul 13 21:33:32 2023] You slash a Ratling for 225 points of damage.
Line 52213: [Thu Jul 13 21:51:12 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 52863: [Thu Jul 13 22:02:56 2023] You slash a Ratling for 220 points of damage.
Line 52921: [Thu Jul 13 22:03:29 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 54021: [Thu Jul 13 22:29:07 2023] You slash a Ratling for 222 points of damage.
Line 54740: [Fri Jul 14 08:16:23 2023] You slash a Ratling for 220 points of damage.
Line 55187: [Sat Jul 15 07:54:41 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 55191: [Sat Jul 15 07:54:44 2023] You slash a Ratling for 228 points of damage.
Line 55257: [Sat Jul 15 07:55:05 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 55856: [Sat Jul 15 08:21:26 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 55997: [Sat Jul 15 08:22:38 2023] You slash a Ratling for 220 points of damage.
Line 57154: [Sat Jul 15 10:20:56 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 59590: [Sun Jul 16 08:40:46 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 59754: [Sun Jul 16 08:42:23 2023] You slash a Ratling for 226 points of damage.
Line 74749: [Sun Jul 16 21:48:44 2023] You slash a Ratling for 227 points of damage.
Line 75467: [Sun Jul 16 21:59:54 2023] You slash a Ratling for 223 points of damage.
Line 75596: [Sun Jul 16 22:01:03 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 75952: [Sun Jul 16 22:05:40 2023] You slash a Ratling for 228 points of damage.
Line 76000: [Sun Jul 16 22:06:07 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 80884: [Wed Jul 19 09:15:47 2023] You slash a Ratling for 223 points of damage.
Line 80932: [Wed Jul 19 09:16:21 2023] You slash a Ratling for 225 points of damage.
Line 82900: [Fri Jul 21 08:20:05 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 83106: [Fri Jul 21 08:22:01 2023] You slash a Ratling for 222 points of damage.
Line 83371: [Fri Jul 21 08:26:06 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 83785: [Fri Jul 21 08:32:04 2023] You slash a Ratling for 228 points of damage.
Line 83926: [Fri Jul 21 08:33:10 2023] You slash a Ratling for 226 points of damage.
Line 84156: [Fri Jul 21 08:35:54 2023] You slash a Ratling for 223 points of damage.
Line 85114: [Tue Jul 25 19:28:00 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 85725: [Tue Jul 25 19:35:36 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 85754: [Tue Jul 25 19:36:02 2023] You slash a Ratling for 222 points of damage.
Line 89995: [Fri Jul 28 12:19:17 2023] You slash a Ratling for 226 points of damage.
Line 90363: [Fri Jul 28 12:22:49 2023] You slash a Ratling for 221 points of damage.
Line 97631: [Fri Jul 28 16:10:34 2023] You slash a Ratling for 226 points of damage.
Line 101885: [Sat Jul 29 18:43:28 2023] You slash a Ratling for 224 points of damage.
Line 102781: [Sat Jul 29 18:52:49 2023] You slash a Ratling for 223 points of damage.
Line 103514: [Sat Jul 29 19:21:22 2023] You slash a Ratling for 222 points of damage.
Line 773: [Sun Jul 30 13:56:27 2023] You slash a Ratling for 232 points of damage.
Line 81003: [Wed Jul 19 09:16:59 2023] You slash a Ratling for 241 points of damage.
Line 1042: [Sun Jul 30 13:57:38 2023] You slash a Ratling for 241 points of damage.

Line 1051: [Sun Jul 30 13:57:41 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 2921: [Sun Jul 30 14:42:14 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 6304: [Sun Jul 30 15:25:05 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 13204: [Sun Jul 30 18:15:36 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 14252: [Sun Jul 30 18:28:56 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 15945: [Sun Jul 30 19:57:52 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 17162: [Sun Jul 30 20:12:35 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 23091: [Mon Jul 31 18:25:42 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 23647: [Mon Jul 31 18:32:25 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 25886: [Mon Jul 31 19:02:47 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 30947: [Mon Jul 31 21:07:26 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 33484: [Mon Jul 31 21:37:31 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 35668: [Mon Jul 31 22:06:27 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 35939: [Mon Jul 31 22:09:23 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 36573: [Tue Aug 01 06:35:34 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 37301: [Tue Aug 01 06:46:53 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 37577: [Tue Aug 01 07:03:25 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 38925: [Tue Aug 01 08:01:33 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 41603: [Tue Aug 01 08:39:26 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 43046: [Tue Aug 01 08:57:13 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 43357: [Tue Aug 01 09:14:14 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 43656: [Tue Aug 01 09:17:33 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 44191: [Tue Aug 01 09:22:59 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 45177: [Tue Aug 01 09:33:58 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 45778: [Tue Aug 01 09:41:11 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 47555: [Tue Aug 01 10:06:24 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 48915: [Tue Aug 01 10:24:42 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 41136: [Wed Jul 12 23:12:12 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 41945: [Thu Jul 13 16:59:28 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 42703: [Thu Jul 13 17:09:11 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 43579: [Thu Jul 13 17:19:05 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 44420: [Thu Jul 13 20:00:17 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 44710: [Thu Jul 13 20:03:42 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 47640: [Thu Jul 13 20:47:40 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 48103: [Thu Jul 13 20:54:37 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 48789: [Thu Jul 13 21:03:38 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 50931: [Thu Jul 13 21:35:50 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 51602: [Thu Jul 13 21:42:51 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 52214: [Thu Jul 13 21:51:12 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 52591: [Thu Jul 13 21:56:30 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 52922: [Thu Jul 13 22:03:29 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 54080: [Thu Jul 13 22:29:29 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 54803: [Fri Jul 14 08:16:52 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 55351: [Sat Jul 15 07:55:32 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 56031: [Sat Jul 15 08:23:11 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 56265: [Sat Jul 15 08:25:53 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 57485: [Sat Jul 15 10:24:24 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 59444: [Sun Jul 16 08:38:12 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 59755: [Sun Jul 16 08:42:23 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 61391: [Sun Jul 16 09:05:00 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 69036: [Sun Jul 16 16:45:30 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 69657: [Sun Jul 16 16:52:02 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 72181: [Sun Jul 16 17:36:52 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 74794: [Sun Jul 16 21:49:14 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 75721: [Sun Jul 16 22:02:24 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 76024: [Sun Jul 16 22:06:25 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 76599: [Mon Jul 17 06:35:19 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 77340: [Mon Jul 17 06:57:36 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 79986: [Wed Jul 19 09:00:23 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 81049: [Wed Jul 19 09:17:36 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 82835: [Fri Jul 21 08:19:07 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 83107: [Fri Jul 21 08:22:01 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 83397: [Fri Jul 21 08:26:33 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 84058: [Fri Jul 21 08:34:11 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 84317: [Fri Jul 21 08:37:11 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 84625: [Tue Jul 25 19:22:44 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 85268: [Tue Jul 25 19:29:20 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 85755: [Tue Jul 25 19:36:02 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 87736: [Tue Jul 25 21:08:47 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 90235: [Fri Jul 28 12:21:26 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 90586: [Fri Jul 28 12:24:41 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 92690: [Fri Jul 28 12:59:15 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 94858: [Fri Jul 28 13:33:47 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 97723: [Fri Jul 28 16:11:22 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 100418: [Fri Jul 28 16:49:04 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 102135: [Sat Jul 29 18:45:49 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 102668: [Sat Jul 29 18:51:28 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 102919: [Sat Jul 29 18:54:15 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 103575: [Sat Jul 29 19:22:03 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 104717: [Sat Jul 29 19:41:04 2023] You have slain a Ratling!
Line 105155: [Sat Jul 29 19:43:53 2023] You have slain a Ratling!

67 high damage hits total
1149 hits on Ratling total

Line 6587: [Sun Jul 30 15:27:37 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 221 points of damage.
Line 19622: [Sun Jul 30 21:11:26 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 223 points of damage.
Line 19730: [Sun Jul 30 21:12:40 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 223 points of damage.
Line 22451: [Mon Jul 31 18:19:06 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 226 points of damage.
Line 23227: [Mon Jul 31 18:28:25 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 221 points of damage.
Line 26430: [Mon Jul 31 19:13:36 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 228 points of damage.
Line 26794: [Mon Jul 31 19:15:56 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 226 points of damage.
Line 27637: [Mon Jul 31 20:20:57 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 30083: [Mon Jul 31 20:55:37 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 222 points of damage.
Line 32275: [Mon Jul 31 21:23:25 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 32630: [Mon Jul 31 21:27:58 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 36189: [Mon Jul 31 22:11:53 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 223 points of damage.
Line 36897: [Tue Aug 01 06:38:29 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 37753: [Tue Aug 01 07:11:32 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 226 points of damage.
Line 42208: [Tue Aug 01 08:48:33 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 43829: [Tue Aug 01 09:19:13 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 220 points of damage.
Line 43895: [Tue Aug 01 09:19:59 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 49804: [Tue Aug 01 15:07:44 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 226 points of damage.
Line 49837: [Tue Aug 01 15:08:13 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 225 points of damage.
Line 41986: [Thu Jul 13 17:00:30 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 226 points of damage.
Line 42107: [Thu Jul 13 17:01:30 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 222 points of damage.
Line 45513: [Thu Jul 13 20:13:00 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 46897: [Thu Jul 13 20:35:56 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 221 points of damage.
Line 49616: [Thu Jul 13 21:15:15 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 226 points of damage.
Line 49767: [Thu Jul 13 21:17:12 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 222 points of damage.
Line 49995: [Thu Jul 13 21:22:39 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 50064: [Thu Jul 13 21:23:26 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 221 points of damage.
Line 57669: [Sat Jul 15 10:26:54 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 69888: [Sun Jul 16 16:57:31 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 226 points of damage.
Line 72298: [Sun Jul 16 17:38:06 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 223 points of damage.
Line 73525: [Sun Jul 16 21:29:05 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 73739: [Sun Jul 16 21:31:01 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 225 points of damage.
Line 73777: [Sun Jul 16 21:31:24 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 75195: [Sun Jul 16 21:54:05 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 225 points of damage.
Line 75414: [Sun Jul 16 21:56:09 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 225 points of damage.
Line 75427: [Sun Jul 16 21:56:15 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 228 points of damage.
Line 78071: [Mon Jul 17 07:05:54 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 221 points of damage.
Line 78362: [Mon Jul 17 07:08:22 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 220 points of damage.
Line 78581: [Mon Jul 17 07:14:33 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 226 points of damage.
Line 78759: [Mon Jul 17 07:16:30 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 228 points of damage.
Line 88669: [Fri Jul 28 10:54:41 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 223 points of damage.
Line 88790: [Fri Jul 28 10:55:54 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 225 points of damage.
Line 89094: [Fri Jul 28 10:59:32 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 225 points of damage.
Line 89541: [Fri Jul 28 11:57:27 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 89567: [Fri Jul 28 11:57:36 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 223 points of damage.
Line 90716: [Fri Jul 28 12:26:25 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 90790: [Fri Jul 28 12:27:17 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 228 points of damage.
Line 90868: [Fri Jul 28 12:27:58 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 93173: [Fri Jul 28 13:09:12 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 220 points of damage.
Line 95805: [Fri Jul 28 13:48:55 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 228 points of damage.
Line 95898: [Fri Jul 28 13:49:46 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 95910: [Fri Jul 28 13:49:58 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 221 points of damage.
Line 96417: [Fri Jul 28 13:55:56 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 96917: [Fri Jul 28 16:02:30 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 96988: [Fri Jul 28 16:03:05 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 97037: [Fri Jul 28 16:03:23 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 225 points of damage.
Line 97154: [Fri Jul 28 16:04:04 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 97315: [Fri Jul 28 16:07:06 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 220 points of damage.
Line 100879: [Fri Jul 28 16:57:46 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 224 points of damage.
Line 100899: [Fri Jul 28 16:57:51 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 228 points of damage.
Line 103959: [Sat Jul 29 19:27:59 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 223 points of damage.
Line 104499: [Sat Jul 29 19:38:08 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 227 points of damage.
Line 49799: [Tue Aug 01 15:07:42 2023] You slash a Ratfink for 234 points of damage.

Line 1545: [Sun Jul 30 14:03:59 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 4117: [Sun Jul 30 14:57:03 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 5162: [Sun Jul 30 15:11:28 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 6606: [Sun Jul 30 15:27:52 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 7479: [Sun Jul 30 16:49:14 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 10888: [Sun Jul 30 17:32:12 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 16560: [Sun Jul 30 20:05:46 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 17820: [Sun Jul 30 20:21:45 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 19741: [Sun Jul 30 21:12:46 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 22484: [Mon Jul 31 18:19:24 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
Line 23412: [Mon Jul 31 18:29:54 2023] You have slain a Ratfink!
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62 high damage hits total
1287 hits on Ratling total


269 high damage hits total
6623 total hits

Percent chance to get a high damage hit: 4%. This is using Innoruuk's Curse and 54% haste.

As you can see, this isn't a large difference between the small sample size I provided with Corudoth, and the large sample size I provided just now.

Max hit is not significantly impacted by whichever nonsensical formula you are using.

You need to show us the formulas you are using, so we can see where you are going wrong, and we can fix your understanding.

You still haven't shown why the DPS differences will be different.

You haven't even shown how much different they will be. If the difference is a mere 5% of 3 DPS, it isn't going to net you more kills per hour.

[Troxx]

11/469 = 2.217%
269/6623 = 4.061% (not 1% - you’re off by a factor of 4x here)

How can you fail at the most basic part of the math. Divide 269 by 6623 in your calculator. The answer is not 0.01 (1%). It is 0.04061603502….

?????

Even then the difference between your Mr Turtle max hits and the amalgamation of all dem fights max hits - there’s an 83.1% difference man. One set of parses are nearly double the max hit rate compared to the other.

Diving deeper:

Did you isolate slashes or are your spams/bashes included?
Were you the same level in all of these fights or are these fights from multiple levels while you pushed to 60?
Were you always, 100% buffed exactly the same with no variance whatsoever?
Were you actually using the same exact weapon 100% of the time? Or were you swapping in epic for proc or sometimes going sword and board?

As this data was gathered from a protracted xp grind, I imagine quite a lot of variables fluctuated at times.

If anything, you’re showing less consistency than you were before.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

11/469 = 2.217%
269/6623 = 4.061% (not 1% - you’re off by a factor of 4x here)

Difference between your Mr Turtle max hits and the amalgamation of all dem fights max hits - there’s an 83.1% difference man.

Did you isolate slashes or are your spams/bashes included? Were you the same level in all of these fights or are these fights from multiple levels while you pushed to 60? Were you always, 100% buffed exactly the same with no variance whatsoever?

If anything, you’re showing less consistency than you were before.

You are correct I did type in the calculation wrong for 269/6623 into my calculator. That was my fault. Unlike yourself, I am able to admit mistakes, and provide proof for my claims.

A difference between 2% max hits and 4% max hits is still not a large leap, same with the difference between 1% and 2%. Because my sample size is smaller on the turtle, it is difficult to say whether or not this discrepancy is simply due to averages. I have 200 kills represented in that data. That means the larger data sample is much closer to a true average.

You still refuse to explain how a difference in 2% max hits and 4% max hits would increase the DPS difference between 160 STR and 180 STR by a significant amount, which is the key point here.

Please post your formulas. We should be able to see it if you plug in whatever numbers you are using.

[Troxx]

A difference between 2% max hits and 4% max hits is still not a large.

Umm the difference between 2.217 and 4.062 is off by a factor of exactly 83.175%

That’s a large difference and that only captures DI 20. There are 19 other DIs that will be similarly skewed. That’s not a small difference. It furthermore proves the point that Mr Turtle is an anomaly and not at all reflective of performance vs level appropriate “normal” mobs … much less normal mobs closer to your level.

Go repeat your Mr Turtle experiment on the same exact solid blue con xp mob with and without 20 extra strength.

We can begin a meaningful discussion of the findings as it relates to having a little bit higher total mana pool vs the damage differences and the ability to carry more weight on a low str race that is hated by vendors and bankers throughout Norrath.

Bonus points if you drop some gear and test 140 vs 160 or 150 vs 170 or 160 vs 180 str values.

[Troxx]

Please post your formulas. We should be able to see it if you plug in whatever numbers you are using.

The exact formulas for p99 are known only to the creators of p99. They were reverse engineered and estimated because the exact formulas used in EQ live were known only to the creators of Original EverQuest.

What we do know is there is a dynamic relationship between your attack/level and the mobs ac/level in determining the relative chance of a DI 1-20 hit that is furthermore fuddled by the RNG. The RNG fuddling is why large parses are required for quality data interpretation.

When I was running defensive parses on Live back in the day I typically looked for sample sizes of 5000-10000 hits with all other variables strictly controlled to find the most precise data. I’ve been doing these parses for a long time man.

Such large parses are not reasonable. I’d be happy with 1 mob and 10 runs down to 20% health (5 of each str level).

That would at least give us a fuzzy, if not 100% accurate, representation. The more hits the better. I would recommend not clicking slam at all so you can isolate only hits from mainhand weapon.

If you want a partner in crime to help heal you, I can bring my 60 necro to HoT you to avoid any unnecessary down time. It’s a healing class that can likewise FD to allow the mob to reset and regen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Umm the difference between 2.217 and 4.062 is off by a favor of exactly 83.175%

That’s a large difference and that only captures DI 20. There are 19 other DIs that will be similarly skewed. That’s not a small difference. It furthermore proves the point that Mr Turtle is an anomaly and not at all reflective of performance vs level appropriate “normal” mobs … much less normal mobs closer to your level.

Go repeat your Mr Turtle experiment on the same exact solid blue con xp mob with and without 20 extra strength.

We can begin a meaningful discussion of the findings as it relates to having a little bit higher total mana pool vs the damage differences and the ability to carry more weight on a low str race that is hated by vendors and bankers throughout Norrath.

Bonus points if you drop some gear and test 140 vs 160 or 150 vs 170 or 160 vs 180 str values.

Here's the thing. I provided plenty of evidence for you to work with. I gave you turtle data with logs and video evidence, and I gave you 200 kills worth of log data for dark blues.

You haven't explained AT ALL how the DPS difference between 210 STR and 231 STR will increase instead of decrease when taking into account different mitigation values. You haven't even shown how much that difference is. If it's a difference of 0.1 DPS, you aren't getting more kills per hour while leveling.

I am not going to keep responding to you when you fail to do anything but constantly repeat "provide data for my claims".

For those interested, my data is here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 and https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633523&postcount=138 .

Please come back when you can provide anything approaching a salient point, or data for your claims, or the formulas you are using. You just keep posting the same nonsense over and over, and it is getting tiring.

[Troxx]

Ps: you can also get a lot more data out of each run down to 20% by equipping a crappy (I mean newbie level) 1hander and your shield.

The only thing that matters is comparative dps. With a crappy weapon you can beat on the same mob 10x longer or more before you drop it to 20%.

[Troxx]

Please come back when you can provide anything.

I’m actually offering to help.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m actually offering to help.

Then please, provide a video with logs showing evidence for your claims, and the formulas you are using, so we can take a look at it. It is not helping to keep asking me to give you more data and videos. You are simply saying "nothing is good enough".

For those interested, my data is here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 and https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633523&postcount=138 .

[Troxx]

I’m offering to log in and sit there with you healing you while we collect the data. I do not have a sk or a tank that can FD to reset the exact same mob to control all variables.

What I can do is heal you and likewise FD to reset the mob.

Geared though you may be, your down time would be significant otherwise if you are testing vs an actually appropriate dark blue con mob. Remember, we’d be trying to isolate your melee dps and casting lifetaps or otherwise doing any damage other than auto attack would provide unwelcome variance.

If you’re interested I can try to help out.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m offering to log in and sit there with you healing it while we collect the data. I do not have a sk or a tank that can FD to reset the exact same mob to control all variables.

What I can do is heal you and likewise FD to reset the mob.

Geared though you may be, your down time would be significant otherwise if you are testing vs an actually appropriate dark blue con mob.

If you’re interested I try to help out.

You have a level 60 Paladin, according to your signature.

You also agree that Paladins and SK's have the same damage table when you are simply auto attacking. So there won't be any difference in the white damage calculations.

You can make a video with your Paladin, I am sure you can use lull to control the mobs just fine.

That would actually help. I will be happy to admit I am wrong if you can provide hard evidence.

[Troxx]

You have a level 60 Paladin, according to your signature.

You also agree that Paladins and SK's have the same damage table when you are simply auto attacking. So there won't be any difference in the white damage calculations.

You can make a video with your Paladin, I am sure you can use lull to control the mobs just fine.

Paladins cannot FD to reset the mob to ensure the same exact mob. Mob after mob.

But whatever - I’ll try to think of a static dark blue mob in an out of the way place where nobody is likely to interfere if you’re not willing. I can always root it and camp I suppose.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Paladins cannot FD to reset the mob to ensure the same exact mob. Mob after mob.

But whatever - I’ll try to think of a static dark blue mob in an out of the way place where nobody is likely to interfere if you’re not willing. I can always root it and camp I suppose.

I appreciate it. Thank you!

[Troxx]

You don't need to do that. A mob difference of 1-2 levels isn't going to significantly skew your data.

You can also attack the turtle in whichever way you think is better than the way I did it, or camp a mob that is a static spawn and static level.

A) A mob difference of 1-2 levels will skew things significantly enough to make the subtle differences we are trying to most objectively and accurately show less than fully reliable for a legitimate discussion. Variables will be kept identical.

B). No. We have already established that the turtle is a stupid target to run these tests on.

C). I’m not video recording it. I don’t have the software, don’t want to download and install anything new, and don’t have a YouTube channel to upload it to regardless. Data will be provided nevertheless.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A) A mob difference of 1-2 levels will skew things significantly enough to make the subtle differences we are trying to most objective and accurately show irrelevant for a legitimate discussion.

B). No. We have already established that the turtle is a stupid target to run these tests on.

You can test however you think is best, and come back with video + log evidence.

Once you have established a test that you feel is correct, I can do the same test on my SK later if need be.

I appreciate you taking the time to do so!

[Troxx]

/facepalm

[DeathsSilkyMist]

C). I’m not video recording it. I don’t have the software, don’t want to download and install anything new, and don’t have a YouTube channel to upload it to regardless. Data will be provided nevertheless.

That's fine. Please provide the full log file without edits so we can take a look. Obviously include anything else you think is relevant. Please do not simply screenshot an excel file, log file, etc.

You can mark your tests by typing in chat, something like: "160 STR test start", "160 STR test end", etc. That way it will appear in the log file, so we understand what is going on.

Thank you!

[bcbrown]

I am saying the content of his argument is insufficient to convince people, because he will not provide evidence for his claims. [...] This is a factual claim, so it is easy to prove one way or the other. I am not going to simply accept this claim because they say so.

The first sentence in this quote (in the stronger form you used earlier of "nobody is convinced") is what is factually incorrect, as I find it convincing. I don't expect you to accept it, but I do.


Here is the requested Magelo: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK - 172 STR with EC gear on a Iksar who put points into INT instead of STR. With Siphon Strength you would be at 182 self buffed.

Thank you, this is convincing. I'd love to see someone else who favors putting points into strength to come up with a Magelo with similar gear levels.


This is incorrect. Video games are built on rules and math. Factual claims such as which starting stat is best can be proven with evidence, and there is a best and worst option statistically speaking. [...] When most players ask "what is the best starting stat", they want the objective best starting stat. That is the stat that gives most players the most value over the most amount of time.

This is something on which I don't think we will ever see eye to eye. Of course, the mechanics affected by the different attributes are deterministic, implemented through mathematical formulae. But value is subjective. Doesn't your shaman race guide essentially say "Iksar is best for raiding, Troll is best for leveling, Ogre is best if you primarily care about post-Torpor gameplay"?

That stat is INT, and it is easy to prove:
1. INT will help you from levels 9-60, including when you are in BiS gear.
2. STR is easy to get, and you do not need 200+ STR to level to 60. No one has provided anything to show that 20 STR is going to be a significant boon.

You're setting different bars for strength and int here. You say int "will help", but that 200+ str is "not neccesary", and 20 str is "not significant". 20 str will help. You haven't shown that 20int is "a significant boon".

You are calling me less credible than the posters who literally insult/troll people who disagree with them. That makes you sound like a troll, since you are clearly not being consistent with your opinions. I am perfectly fine with accepting criticism and trying to improve myself. But your advise sounds hollow when you give people who use insults and trolling a pass. You completely ignore them. This shows you do not have a very good method for determining credibility. You should work on that first, before advising others.

I am entirely uninterested in engaging with insults and trolling. Notice that you're the only person I've engaged with in this thread. Yes, I may ignore trolls and insults, but it's not because I'm giving them a pass; it's because I don't think I'll get any sort of a constructive outcome from engaging with that sort of behavior. Maybe you think I'm picking on you, but I'd prefer you take it as a compliment that I think you're worth the effort of talking to you.

[PatChapp]

A mage was testing pets vs the shady swashbuckler. Seems like a good option, always lvl 45 and short respawn timer. No adds zl right there.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you, this is convincing. I'd love to see someone else who favors putting points into strength to come up with a Magelo with similar gear levels.


You're welcome! I would like to see that too.



This is something on which I don't think we will ever see eye to eye. Of course, the mechanics affected by the different attributes are deterministic, implemented through mathematical formulae. But value is subjective. Doesn't your shaman race guide essentially say "Iksar is best for raiding, Troll is best for leveling, Ogre is best if you primarily care about post-Torpor gameplay"?

You're setting different bars for strength and int here. You say int "will help", but that 200+ str is "not neccesary", and 20 str is "not significant". 20 str will help. You haven't shown that 20int is "a significant boon".


I do indeed provide the best situation for each race. There are players who are looking to do something very specific, and they should know if a racial choice will help them out more in that scenario.

I still clearly state that Ogre is the best overall choice for the vast majority of Shamans. Torpor is the best feature of a Shaman, and the goal all Shaman players should be aiming for. FSI works best with Torpor, which means Ogre is overall the best choice. As I state in my guide, if you are 100% convinced you will never reach level 60, Troll is the better racial choice.

However, there are a lot of level 60 Shamans online when you /w all 60 Shaman. If you have been on the server for a number of years, you would notice how popular max level Shamans are. I don't think it is a wise idea to assume you will never hit 60 (and thus use that assumption to dictate your starting race/stats). There are plenty of stories of people who pick up characters they put down at level 40, and bring them up the rest of the way to 60.

The same logic applies to dumping points into STR as your starting stats. I am not saying STR will do nothing. I also mention that STR is a good choice on a self found character, or if it is your first character on a new server. This tends to be the less common scenario, however, due to both servers being at the end of Velious. As far as I know, OP is willing to twink his character, which is the common choice.

For a twinked character, STR is simply not going to be very noticeable, contrary to what everybody has been saying. I have provided evidence for this here https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 and https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633523&postcount=138 here. STA and INT will not be very noticeable either, but you will get benefits from them longer than STR, because STR is simply way easier to cap with gear and buffs. With Focus of Spirit and Maniacal Strength you only need 120ish total STR to cap out at 255. With only Maniacal Strength (if you are grouping with a sub 60 Shaman), you only need 187 total STR. As you can see, the Magelo I provided https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK is already quite close to that number. I've done a lot of soloing over the years, and I can say that a bit of extra STR has not provided me with a significant increase in my kills per hour.

There needs to be a commonly accepted definition for what the "best" is when dealing with these kinds of questions. Otherwise there can never be consensus on any topic, because you can always find a situation in which something is the "best". Putting all your starting stats into AGI will make you the best "avoidance tank", but unfortunately the benefit from that is so small, that nobody would try and argue that it is the overall "best" choice.

The commonly accepted definition for what the "best" is should be the choice that benefits the most players, regardless of their intentions when playing the game. This advise will serve the most people. If someone is an advanced player, and looking for something more specific, a more technical discussion can be had. If someone wants to make a Magelo Shaman, who's primary purpose is to be a DKP dump for their thousands of unspent DKP, Iksar is the best choice for that. Most players don't have the luxury of having too much DKP to spend, however, so I wouldn't give this advise normally.


I am entirely uninterested in engaging with insults and trolling. Notice that you're the only person I've engaged with in this thread. Yes, I may ignore trolls and insults, but it's not because I'm giving them a pass; it's because I don't think I'll get any sort of a constructive outcome from engaging with that sort of behavior. Maybe you think I'm picking on you, but I'd prefer you take it as a compliment that I think you're worth the effort of talking to you.

I appreciate you have made your intentions clear, and have denounced the trolls. Thank you for that, and I apologize if I insulted you.

[Troxx]

Testing in progress now - 6 fights down with high str - will update later when done


edit: eyeballing it data so far is not good news for DSM, just wrapped up the 2nd low str fight

Using gamparse

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Testing in progress now - 6 fights down with high str - will update later when done

Excellent! Thanks for the update.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Testing in progress now - 6 fights down with high str - will update later when done


edit: eyeballing it data so far is not good news for DSM, just wrapped up the 2nd low str fight

Using gamparse

Can you please provide the raw logs, and not the gameparse. You have admitted multiple times in the other thread you think gameparse is incorrect.

I have no way to verify gamparse works either. That is why I provide video + log evidence. There is no third party program that may be skewing the data.

[Troxx]

Gamparse is 100% accurate in reporting dps under these circumstances as well as max hit, min hit, and average hit.

Gamparse is only buggy when you have a group going on when engage/starts for relative players may be different (ie the monk or rogue doesn't start attacking until 5-20 seconds into the fight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Gamparse is 100% accurate in reporting dps under these circumstances as well as max hit, min hit, and average hit.

Gamparse is only buggy when you have a group going on when engage/starts for relative players may be different (ie the monk or rogue doesn't start attacking until 5-20 seconds into the fight.

I do not trust gameparse. I have never used it, and don't know how it parses the data. You are admitting it is buggy, which means I cannot know if your parse is also bugged.

I let you provide non-video evidence because you do not have a Youtube account.

Please humor me and do not use game parse. I want the raw logs, not a screenshot of an excel file.

[Lune]

He isn't admitting it is buggy, he is acknowledging that in one specific circumstance, comparing the DPS between individuals who started fights at different times, you aren't getting a like terms picture. It is even accurate in this situation, it's the interpretation of that specific situation that you have to be careful with.

For all other applications, it is just aggregating log data and is 100% accurate.

It's your data that's going to be shit because it's subject to human error.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He isn't admitting it is buggy, he is acknowledging that in one specific circumstance, comparing the DPS between individuals who started fights at different times, you aren't getting a like terms picture. It is even accurate in this situation, it's the interpretation that you have to be careful with.

For all other applications, it is just aggregating log data and is 100% accurate.

It's your data that's going to be shit because it's subject to human error.

He is admitting it is buggy lol. If it can break in a certain situation, I am not sure why you are confident that it cannot break on others. Are you a developer for gameparse?

With the raw logs, other people can check them to see if human error occurred. Nobody can check if an error occurred in gameparse.

[Lune]

He is admitting it is buggy lol. If it can break on a certain type of parse, I am not sure why you are confident that it cannot break on others. Are you a developer for gameparse?

You have no grasp of math or language, you lose hold of meaning so easily.

He used the word buggy, but trust me when I say, having used Gamparse, what he means is that the DPS readout for different players isn't accurately portrayed because it's based on different start times for a fight.

That has no bearing on what he's currently doing.

How do I know vBulletin isn't taking your words and changing them to promote your argument. Are you a developer for vBulletin? That's you right now. It's a fucking log compiler.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have no grasp of math or language, you lose hold of meaning so easily.


This is nonsense. You are making the claim gameparse cannot be buggy. You have no evidence for this, and Troxx has openly admitted gameparse has issues in certain scenarios. I am not sure why you are defending this when you have no ability to back up your statement.

There is no reason why Troxx cannot provide the raw logs.

[Lune]

This is nonsense. You are making the claim gameparse cannot be buggy. You have no evidence for this, and Troxx has openly admitted gameparse has issues in certain scenarios. I am not sure why you are defending this when you have no ability to back up your statement.

There is no reason why Troxx cannot provide the raw logs.

I am not, I'm explaining to you what Troxx is saying. He is saying one specific feature has limited utility. That feature isn't even bugged, it just doesn't account for different times players start fights. It's completely independent of a single player parsing combat with mobs.

If someone is in combat for 6 seconds and they get a string of hits, it will show much higher DPS than a player who has been in combat for 2 minutes with normal distribution of hits. That's it. Unique to the DPS feature between players.

[Troxx]

Ok there were so many issues with trial 1 I'm going to put it in the scrap bin and we will try again. The results were significant but there were issues. Even though the parses support my hypothesis and understanding of this game, I cannot rightfully stand on them confidently and proclaim it is accurate. Regardless, I will post findings.

I had to move along because other players needed the camp more rightfully for quest related reasons.

Methods: Single pull static spawn undead. Lull neighbor. Pull. Fight down to 20% or just below. Root. Camp. Log back in. Heal, rinse repeat.

# of fights 7 with each setup
Str variables: 140 vs 160

Limitations of fights:
-High green xp mob, not blue (this is a problem)
-Due to the above, fights were not as long as they should have been
-High variability from fight to fight. Ironically my highest dps was at 140 str but the averages still are relevant
-Very limited hits logged due to aforementioned low level of mobs and not enough time in camp to get a more appropriate # of hits

Strengths of this test/parse:
-Same mob 100% of the time
-Within xp range (albeit barely)

160 strength:
Av DPS: 29
Av Hit: 62
Max hit: 120

140 strength:
Av dps: 25
Av Hit: 58
Max hit: 116

Difference in DPS: 16%
Difference in av Hit: 6.8% (not consistent with findings in av dps - that's RNG luck one way or another)
Difference in max hit: 3.5%

Weapon used:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Darkmetal_Falchion

Goal was to prolong the fights as long as possible.

Buffs: Self only
-Strength difference accomplished by removing gear, none of which had + attack effects
-Yaulp was never used

*bonus fries: there was a significant parse-able difference in damage taken in removing pieces of gear


TLDR:

Parse, though it showed what i wanted it to show ... it has fatal flaws. I will try again and will brainstorm mobs that are dark blue exclusively moving forward.

TALLY HO!

What could make this easier?
-finding a a much higher level mob
-having a dedicated healer so individual fights could be longer
-having a corner to back into so repositioning is a non issue

[Troxx]

Can you please provide the raw logs, and not the gameparse. You have admitted multiple times in the other thread you think gameparse is incorrect.

I am happy to once I have a sample that is worthy of scrutinizing.

First set supports all the things I want it to. I am mature enough, however, to acknowledge the many flaws and wait for a more reliable pool of data before proceeding.

I hope you can appreciate that.

First round of data is garbage despite the fact it showed what I wanted it to show.

I'm a physician. Was a biologist before. I place a lot of value on qualitative data rather than any random BS that supports my preferred outcome. I am basically allergic to confirmation bias ... to my very core.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok there were so many issues with trial 1 I'm going to put it in the scrap bin and we will try again. The results were significant but there were issues. Even though the parses support my hypothesis and understanding of this game, I cannot rightfully stand on them confidently and proclaim it is accurate. Regardless, I will post findings.

I had to move along because other players needed the camp more rightfully for quest related reasons.

Methods: Single pull static spawn undead. Lull neighbor. Pull. Fight down to 20% or just below. Root. Camp. Log back in. Heal, rinse repeat.

# of fights 7 with each setup
Str variables: 140 vs 160

Limitations of fights:
-High green xp mob, not blue (this is a problem)
-Due to the above, fights were not as long as they should have been
-High variability from fight to fight. Ironically my highest dps was at 140 str but the averages still are relevant
-Very limited hits logged due to aforementioned low level of mobs and not enough time in camp to get a more appropriate # of hits

Strengths of this test/parse:
-Same mob 100% of the time
-Within xp range (albeit barely)

160 strength:
Av DPS: 29
Av Hit: 62
Max hit: 120

140 strength:
Av dps: 25
Av Hit: 58
Max hit: 116

Difference in DPS: 16%
Difference in av Hit: 6.8% (not consistent with findings in av dps - that's RNG luck one way or another)
Difference in max hit: 3.5%

Weapon used:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Darkmetal_Falchion

Goal was to prolong the fights as long as possible.

Buffs: Self only
-Strength difference accomplished by removing gear, none of which had + attack effects
-Yaulp was never used

*bonus fries: there was a significant parse-able difference in damage taken in removing pieces of gear


TLDR:

Parse, though it showed what i wanted it to show ... it has fatal flaws. I will try again and will brainstorm mobs that are dark blue exclusively moving forward.

TALLY HO!

What could make this easier?
-finding a a much higher level mob
-having a dedicated healer so individual fights could be longer
-having a corner to back into so repositioning is a non issue

Multiple issues here:

1. I do not know when gameparse decides a fight has started. This can skew the average DPS if there is dead time between autoattack on and autoattack off.
2. You need to exclude ripostes. For example, I got 4 ripostes on the first turtle test, and 9 on the second turtle test. That is hundreds of damage that is random, and can skew either data set.
3. You used a 1h weapon, and I used a 2h weapon. There are differences in how those formulas work.
4. You need to tell us what mob you were fighting.
5. Your difference in DPS was 4, and mine was 3. The only reason why your percentage is higher is because your numbers are lower (because you used a 1H sword). I am not sure why you are celebrating when the numbers are similar, and they may be a bit inflated.

[Lune]

Dude's got a doctor and guy with a clinical doctorate running numbers for his autistic ass while he sits there and misunderstands everything, single most effective troll in this forum's history lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude's got a doctor and guy with a clinical doctorate running numbers for his autistic ass while he sits there and misunderstands everything, single most effective troll in this forum's history lol

It's quite clear for everybody to see you are simply a yes man at this point.

Here is my data again: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105

The difference in DPS between my two TURTLE fights was 3 DPS, excluding Ripostes.

Troxx's data shows a difference of 4 DPS, including Ripostes.

This mean's Troxx's hypothesis about the turtle is likely incorrect. We should be seeing a much larger difference if the turtle has some special properties that skew the data.

The DPS difference is not very big, and possibly inflated due to Ripostes and gameparse.

I am not sure where the "gotcha" is here lol. He is just showing his data is similar to mine, albeit gathered in a worse way, and using 1H instead of 2H.

The logic of reducing the DPS difference due to being lower level with a worse weapon and worse haste item still applies. OP isn't going to be getting the full 3 or 4 DPS while leveling.

Troxx hasn't done anything yet to show the DPS difference of 3 or 4 will get larger at lower levels.

[Troxx]

Multiple issues here:

1. I do not know when gameparse decides a fight has started. This can skew the average DPS if there is dead time between autoattack on and autoattack off.
2. You need to exclude ripostes. For example, I got 4 ripostes on the first turtle test, and 9 on the second turtle test. That is hundreds of damage that is random, and can skew either data set.
3. You used a 1h weapon, and I used a 2h weapon. There are differences in how those formulas work.
4. You need to tell us what mob you were fighting.
5. Your difference in DPS was 4, and mine was 3. The only reason why your percentage is higher is because your numbers are lower (because you used a 1H sword). I am not sure why you are celebrating when the numbers are similar, and they may be a bit inflated.

Derp.

1. I have deemed the whole parse insufficient
2. Ripostes are a static thing that happen at mathematically predictable frequencies - they don't matter that much. Beyond that, this was with a much lower damage 1hs compared to my 2handers (one of which is a NTOV raid BIS type item)
3. There are no differences in 1h vs 2h when it comes to average dps. As long as the weapon is consistent it doesn't matter if it's a fine steel sword vs a Palladius Axe of Slaughter for comparison sake ... Dude i expected (or wanted to) more of you.
4. The parse itself sucks, i am not submitting it for final review. The mob is therefore irrelevant.
5. My difference in DPS was 4. Yours was 3. I was using a Hate 1hs. You were using a ToV 2hander. The point was I used the same exact mob over and over again with the same exact everything minus exactly 20 str. What weapon you use - rusty dagger vs ToV 2hander ... it doesn't matter. % difference is % difference

This is not rocket surgery.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Derp.

1. I have deemed the whole parse insufficient
2. Ripostes are a static thing that happen at mathematically predictable frequencies - they don't matter that much. Beyond that, this was with a much lower damage 1hs compared to my 2handers (one of which is a NTOV raid BIS type item)
3. There are no differences in 1h vs 2h when it comes to average dps. As long as the weapon is consistent it doesn't matter if it's a fine steel sword vs a Palladius Axe of Slaughter for comparison sake ... Dude i expedted more of you.
4. The parse itself sucks, i am not submitting it for final review. The mob is therefore irrelevant.
5. My difference in DPS was 4. Yours was 3. I was using a Hate 1hs. You were using a ToV 2hander. The point was I used the same exact mob over and over again with the same exact everything minus exactly 20 str. What weapon you use - rusty dagger vs ToV 2hander ... it doesn't matter. % difference is % difference

This is not rocket surgery.

I agree, it isn't rocket surgery.

The difference in raw DPS was 1. Your number was probably inflated due to ripostes unless you somehow got the exact same amount with and without the 20 STR. In the turtle fights I removed ripostes because I got 4 ripostes on the first test, and 9 ripostes on the second test. This can add up to thousands of extra damage, especially when using a good weapon.

I also do not know when gameparse considers a fight to be started or finished, so it is tough to say how it calculates average DPS. Your numbers may be inflated a bit from that too.

So far you haven't shown anything other than both of our parses were similar, which means your idea that the turtle is an invalid DPS test target is currently up for debate.

I pointed out 1H vs 2H because you have been really specific about the test having as little variability as possible. You don't even want mob level to be different. You should be using a 2H weapon as well, to keep consistent with this paradigm.

I appreciate you are willing to admit your data was flawed though!

[Lune]

Derp.

1. I have deemed the whole parse insufficient
2. Ripostes are a static thing that happen at mathematically predictable frequencies - they don't matter that much. Beyond that, this was with a much lower damage 1hs compared to my 2handers (one of which is a NTOV raid BIS type item)
3. There are no differences in 1h vs 2h when it comes to average dps. As long as the weapon is consistent it doesn't matter if it's a fine steel sword vs a Palladius Axe of Slaughter for comparison sake ... Dude i expected (or wanted to) more of you.
4. The parse itself sucks, i am not submitting it for final review. The mob is therefore irrelevant.
5. My difference in DPS was 4. Yours was 3. I was using a Hate 1hs. You were using a ToV 2hander. The point was I used the same exact mob over and over again with the same exact everything minus exactly 20 str. What weapon you use - rusty dagger vs ToV 2hander ... it doesn't matter. % difference is % difference

This is not rocket surgery.

Problem is he has no ability to understand all this. Mathematically predictable frequencies, or really any mathematical understanding, has no meaning for him. As expected you just get another brick-wall post with no insight whatsoever

[Troxx]

20 str should never ... EVER ... result in a 16% difference in dps. My parse was flawed despite it showing what I wanted it to.

Biggest problems:
-Not the level range i shooted for. It was high green, not solid blue
-Fights were short requiring compiling lots of smaller/shorter fights
-Insufficient total hits logged - the RNG is a big deal in these cases
-Insufficient time in camp - someone else came in with a legitimate need cutting session short.

The parses showed precisely what I wanted it to, but to a far greater degree than should be mathematically expected. It is therefore a "not good" parse to use as proof of anything. I will repeat it at some point.

I consider that session to be somewhere between "marginally useful" and "completely borked due to limitations aforementioned".

Unlike you, I don't stand on my own relative "Mr Turtle" and proclaim victory. I acknowledge my findings, despite being what i wanted them to show ... were anecdotal at best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The parses showed precisely what I wanted it to, but to a far greater degree than should be mathematically expected. It is therefore a "not good" parse to use as proof of anything. I will repeat it at some point.

I consider that session to be somewhere between "marginally useful" and "completely borked due to limitations aforementioned".

Unlike you, I don't stand on my own relative "Mr Turtle" and proclaim victory. I acknowledge my findings, despite being what i wanted them to show ... were anecdotal at best.

I am not standing on anything. I am simply pointing out that your data https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633598&postcount=168 happened to fit nicely with my data https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 . I got a difference of 3 DPS, and you got a difference of 4 DPS. Since you didn't exclude ripostes, I imagine your number is a bit inflated. This means I am currently winning the debate. You have also shown that you may be incorrect about the turtle with regards to it's validity as a DPS testing mob.

If you think your data is insufficient, I will be happy to review the new data when you try again.

20 str should never ... EVER ... result in a 16% difference in dps. My parse was flawed despite it showing what I wanted it to.


You are simply putting too much emphasis on percentages as evidence. My DPS numbers were 67 vs. 70. The percentage difference there is ~5%, even though the raw number is close to yours. Percentages get bigger when both numbers are smaller. The important part is the raw DPS number. 3-4 DPS via 20 STR isn't a large performance increase at level 60. This number will go down further when you take into account lower player level, lower player skills, a lower ratio weapon, a lower percentage haste item, etc. This is because we are talking about a player who is leveling in EC gear, not a player already at level 60.

[Troxx]

I got a difference of 3 DPS, and you got a difference of 4 DPS.

Your comparative skills are lacking. You got a 3dps difference and I did have 4 but ….

Flawed though my testing was ….

-I got a difference of 4 dps using a plane of hate 1hs where the max dps was 29 va 25 with my weak ass half elf str. That is a 16% difference.
-You had a 3 dps difference using a ToV 2 hander. Dps of 70.25 vs 67.3 dps on a level 5 mob. That’s a 4.38% difference.

That’s a whole world of nowhere close. It’s not a 3 dps vs 4dps difference. It’s 4.38% dps more vs 16% more.

If I had been putting out 67.3dps with my ToV weapon … my flawed study would have proportionally been putting out 78.06 dps (that’s 16% more than 67.3). So not a 3 dps increase … closer to 11dps.

Again, I don’t trust my tests. I need to dedicate more time and do them properly. It can’t possibly be as high as a 16% difference.

Even if your parses were 100% accurate, 4.3% is nothing to sneeze at. This is a game of inches and most players would give a leg for being 4.3% better at whatever. It certainly makes a strong enough case for killing faster and not needing 20 more intelligence on a low str iksar sk.

[Ripqozko]

Your comparative skills are lacking. You got a 3dps difference and I did have 4 but ….

Flawed though my testing was ….

-I got a difference of 4 dps using a plane of hate 1hs where the max dps was 29 va 25 with my weak ass half elf str. That is a 16% difference.
-You had a 3 dps difference using a ToV 2 hander. Dps of 70.25 vs 67.3 dps on a level 5 mob. That’s a 4.38% difference.

That’s a whole world of nowhere close. It’s not a 3 dps vs 4dps difference. It’s 4.38% dps more vs 16% more.

If I had been putting out 67.3dps with my ToV weapon … my flawed study would have proportionally been putting out 78.06 dps (that’s 16% more than 67.3)

Again, I don’t trust my tests. I need to dedicate more time and do them properly. It can’t possibly be as high as a 16% difference.

Even if your parses were 100% accurate, 4.3% is nothing to sneeze at. It certainly makes a strong enough case for killing faster and not needing 20 more intelligence on a low str iksar sk.

Why can’t ya do 78?

/GU Lord Doljonijiarnimorinar in 177s, 92687 @523 | Riphealer 13741@(80 in 170s) | Molf 13498@(80 in 168s) | Gatruk 13442@(78 in 171s) | Kittla 11514@(68 in 169s) | Enviee 8790@(54 in 162s) {X}

I did 80 here with shovel on my pally

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your comparative skills are lacking. You got a 3dps difference and I did have 4 but ….

Flawed though my testing was ….

-I got a difference of 4 dps using a plane of hate 1hs where the max dps was 29 va 25 with my weak ass half elf str. That is a 16% difference.
-You had a 3 dps difference using a ToV 2 hander. Dps of 70.25 vs 67.3 dps on a level 5 mob. That’s a 4.38% difference.

That’s a whole world of nowhere close. It’s not a 3 dps vs 4dps difference. It’s 4.38% dps more vs 16% more.

If I had been putting out 67.3dps with my ToV weapon … my flawed study would have proportionally been putting out 78.06 dps (that’s 16% more than 67.3). So not a 3 dps increase … closer to 11dps.

Again, I don’t trust my tests. I need to dedicate more time and do them properly. It can’t possibly be as high as a 16% difference.

Even if your parses were 100% accurate, 4.3% is nothing to sneeze at. This is a game of inches and most players would give a leg for being 4.3% better at whatever. It certainly makes a strong enough case for killing faster and not needing 20 more intelligence on a low str iksar sk.

Your ideas about percentages are just wrong. The percentage difference in DPS on 1H weapons is bigger simply because the DPS numbers are lower. You don't need to read further into it than that. You have no evidence to suggest you will also get a 16% increase with a 2H weapon.

So far your data supports mine. If your data is flawed, bring more and we can discuss it.

I am not sure why you keep needing to make these strange explanations when your own data speaks for itself.

You also keep forgetting that a lower level player will be getting less than 3-4 DPS from 20 STR. I am not sure why you think this number will remain the same, or get higher, when the player is lower level, has less skills, has a worse weapon/haste item, etc.

[Troxx]

Why can’t ya do 78?

/GU Lord Doljonijiarnimorinar in 177s, 92687 @523 | Riphealer 13741@(80 in 170s) | Molf 13498@(80 in 168s) | Gatruk 13442@(78 in 171s) | Kittla 11514@(68 in 169s) | Enviee 8790@(54 in 162s) {X}

I did 80 here with shovel on my pally

My pally was unbuffed other than self buffs. I’ve put out similar numbers fully buffed 256 str, + attack and fully hasted in raids brother.

[Troxx]

Your ideas about percentages are just wrong. The percentage difference in DPS on 1H weapons is bigger simply because the DPS numbers are lower.

It doesn’t work like that.

Sorry.

Hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It doesn’t work like that.

Sorry.

Hope that helps.

It does work like that. You can check it on your calculator.

It is funny you are trying to write off the simple fact that both of us got a similar raw DPS number for the difference as coincidence.

You don't need to try and save face. Just provide more evidence if you think you are correct.

So far you are supporting my position with your own data.

Here is my data: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 and here is yours https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633598&postcount=168 .

People can look at it themselves.

[Troxx]

So far you are supporting my position with your own data.

Oh good lord. So even my broken worth nothing data set (WAY to strong and in my favor to even be considered valid) supports your position?

Just to be clear …
-my flawed data showed 20 str from 140 to 160 showed a 4dps increase with a PoH 1hs … a 16% dps increase vs a high green that gives xp
-your raid troll str with NToV weapon showing a 3dps increase (little over 4% dmg bump) vs a level 5 turtle

And you consider my broke ass data supporting your position?

Are we in the same galaxy?

https://media.tenor.com/tvFWFDXRrmMAAAAd/blow-mind-mind-blown.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just to be clear …
-my flawed data showed 20 str from 140 to 160 showed a 4dps increase


And my data showed a 3 DPS increase, which is similar.

Maybe this is a coincidence, and maybe it isn't.

What happens if your data keeps showing this?

I am not sure why you are so angry at the possibility of proving me correct.

[Troxx]

At least everyone here can see how this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

Got to 449 pages despite nobody agreeing with you. I bet if I had the stamina to keep this back and forth going we could make this thread 500 pages as well.

Autism and retarded (excuse me … intellectually disabled) are not a good combination.

Back to gifs I suppose. It killed the last thread once up a yesteryear. Maybe it will work here too.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

At least everyone here can see how this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

Got to 449 pages despite nobody agreeing with you. I bet if I had the stamina to keep this back and forth going we could make this thread 500 pages as well.

Autism and retarded (excuse me … intellectually disabled) are not a good combination.

Back to gifs I suppose. It killed the last thread once up a yesteryear. Maybe it will work here too.

Nice meltdown. I might be right, so now you have to resort to posting an off-topic thread where you were also proven wrong. And you are also going to start posting gifs again, just like the hundreds of gifs you posted in that thread.

Thank you for conceding! Thank you for proving you are just a troll.

Here is my data: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633423&postcount=105 and here is yours https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633598&postcount=168 .

People can take a look and come to their own conclusions. I would be happy to take a look at future data if you think you have something better.

[Ripqozko]

Nice meltdown. I might be right, so now you have to resort to posting an off-topic thread where you were also proven wrong. And you are also going to start posting gifs again.

Thank you for conceding!

This is the new face of kittens

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/gbcyIHQUsLcAAAAC/tropic-thunder-robert-downey-jr.gif

[Troxx]

I apologize for trying guys. I was planning on repeating my tests more reliably and for a much longer parsed time but even my broken ass data set showing 20 str resulting in 16% more dps (lol no way it’s actually anywhere close to that) somehow still supports DSMs point in his mind.

Sometimes you can’t fix broken.

[Ripqozko]

I apologize for trying guys. I was planning on repeating my tests more reliably and for a much longer parsed time but even my broken ass data set showing 20 str resulting in 16% more dps (lol no way it’s actually anywhere close to that) somehow still supports DSMs point in his mind.

Sometimes you can’t fix broken.

its pointless to start with, thank you tho. he will always go full DSM and never change.

any topic doesnt matter. he knows the truth and everyone else is wrong.

[Lune]

At least everyone here can see how this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

Got to 449 pages despite nobody agreeing with you. I bet if I had the stamina to keep this back and forth going we could make this thread 500 pages as well.

Autism and retarded (excuse me … intellectually disabled) are not a good combination.

Back to gifs I suppose. It killed the last thread once up a yesteryear. Maybe it will work here too.

For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "nonsense" are you using?



For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "insult" and "meme" are you using?



I am not sure why your post would seem to indicate/reveal/betray that you (seemingly) believe that you are aware of what others think, or why your post would seem to imply that there is any merit or relevance whether a particular poster is "any better than" another particular poster (or what that even means, as you have provided no definition[s]).

For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "better" are you using?



You have provided zero evidence to support your apparent claim that "refusal to believe basic math and data does not mean the posts are the same" (whatever that is supposed to mean).



For the sake of civil discussion, what definition of "trolls" are you using?

Hehe. :)

epic. Cyxthryth had the right approach

[Troxx]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AnnualOblongFlyinglemur-max-1mb.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I apologize for trying guys. I was planning on repeating my tests more reliably and for a much longer parsed time but even my broken ass data set showing 20 str resulting in 16% more dps (lol no way it’s actually anywhere close to that) somehow still supports DSMs point in his mind.

Sometimes you can’t fix broken.

I am not sure why you are apologizing for providing data. Where it leads shouldn't be an issue for you, whether it proves you right or wrong.

As I said in the other thread, if you think your evidence is bad, provide better evidence instead of posting gifs.

This seems to be a common theme of yours. Evidence you provide that doesn't back you up is always bad for some strange reason.

If you think your DPS difference should be lower, that helps my position further, so I am not sure why you think that would prove you correct.

[Troxx]

For strictly theoretical purposes let’s assume that …

-DSM’s level 5 turtle parses are universally true.
-20 str results in 4.3% more dps
-4.3% dps means mobs die when soloing 4.3% faster

Would you, as a:
-new sk with EC gear
-playing a race with very low starting strength
-playing a race universally hated across Norrath
-resulting in rarely having a friendly vendor or banker around you

Would you rather have 4.3% more dps and 20 pounds worth of loot/coin hauling capacity or 20 more intelligence which results in pitifully nothing more mana at 9 scaling up eventually to 200 more mana at 60?

Knowing that:
-without raid gear you might be lucky to have 140- 160 unbuffed str at 60
-stamina will remain low-ish
-as such as a sk you won’t ever cap str without maniacal str (must be cast first) and focus (must be cast second) stack
-and that 200 more maximum mana pool means little to nothing while your ability recover mana (med, clarity, FT, PoTg) will have a huge impact on how many mana-actions you can take over time.

Discuss.

[Troxx]

This seems to be a common theme of yours. Evidence you provide that doesn't back you up is always bad for some strange reason.

Yeah no, the evidence I provided here “backed me up” to such an unrealistic degree that I am disinclined to believe it.

Because I’m an honest an objective fella’

/facepalm

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah no, the evidence I provided here “backed me up” to such an unrealistic degree that I am disinclined to believe it.

Because I’m an honest an objective fella’

/facepalm

I am not sure how that helps you. If you believe the DPS difference should be smaller (let's say 2 DPS instead of 4 DPS), that simply strengthens my argument, because the smaller the DPS bonus, the less useful STR is. This means STR isn't going to be very noticeable for OP.

I am not sure why you are disagreeing with me if you believe your DPS difference should be lower.

[Lune]

I am not sure why you are disagreeing with me if you believe your DPS difference should be lower.

Because he's a young doctor, which means he is trained in assessing data, and believes in intellectual honesty. Like he said.

He didn't believe in the integrity of the data, regardless of the conclusion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Because he's a physician, which means he is trained in assessing data, and believes in intellectual honesty. Like he said.

He didn't believe in the integrity of the data, regardless of the conclusion.

I believe in integrity of the data too, and I can also assess data just fine. I also believe in intellectual honesty. Unfortunately he is simply dismissing his data without actually giving a good reason why.

He is leaving details fuzzy, such as what monster he was attacking. He also continues to refuse to provide logs for whatever reason. If he believed in the integrity of the data, he would provide the logs to prove his data is accurate.

But this is besides the point. If he believes the data was too good to be true (4 additional DPS is too much), then he must believe the DPS number should be lower. That is basic logic.

If he believes that, then he is supporting my position. He is saying the DPS data is too high, therefore future DPS data must be lower. Lower DPS data is good for my position.

[Troxx]

Not 4 dps (mine) vs 3dps (yours) difference.

It’s 16% (my findings) vs 4.3% (your findings) difference.

If you haste a 100dps pet by 16% you now have a 116 dps pet.
If you haste a 100dps pet by 4.3% you now have a 104.3% dps pet.

I used a crappy hate 1hs. It was boosted by 16% with 20str
You used a NToV 2hs. It was boosted by 4.3% with 20str

In no conceivable way were my results favorable to you. If accurate, it would be the final nail in your arguments coffin.

Thankfully I’m an honest enough guy to truthfully (and up front) point all the problems with the data set I gathered.

[Troxx]

Because he's a young doctor.

I just turned 40. Not sure if that qualifies me for a “young doctor” title lol

(Yes I get the p99 historical reference. That thread was funny as hell)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not 4 dps (mine) vs 3dps (yours) difference.

It’s 16% (my findings) vs 4.3% (your findings) difference.

If you haste a 100dps pet by 16% you now have a 116 dps pet.
If you haste a 100dps pet by 4.3% you now have a 104.3% dps pet.

I used a crappy hate 1hs. It was boosted by 16% with 20str
You used a NToV 2hs. It was boosted by 4.3% with 20str

In no conceivable way were my results favorable to you. If accurate, it would be the final nail in your coffins argument.

Thankfully I’m an honest enough guy to truthfully (and up front) point all the problems with the data set I gathered.

How do you explain that the raw difference in DPS was similar (3 vs. 4). Are you claiming this is coincidence? You haven't explained why you are assuming the percentage difference is the correct number, and not the raw number.

If more data was provided, and we saw a consistent 3-4 raw DPS difference, what would you say then?

[Troxx]

If I use a weapon that does 25 dps unbuffed and 20 str gives me 16% more damage - now I’m doing 29dps (a 4 dps difference).

If I am using my Greatspear of Dawn which gives me 65dps white damage unbuffed and 20 more strength gives me 16% more damage - that would give me 75.4 dps (a 10.4 dps difference)

The weapon you are using affects baseline dps ….

[Troxx]

Sorry guys I don’t have a certification in educating special needs kids.

Am I making sense here to literally anyone other than DSM?

Or am I smoking crack?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If I use a weapon that does 25 dps unbuffed and 20 str gives me 16% more damage - now I’m doing 29dps (a 4 dps difference).

If I am using my Greatspear of Dawn which gives me 65dps white damage unbuffed and 20 more strength gives me 16% more damage - that would give me 75.4 dps (a 10.4 dps difference)

The weapon you are using affects baseline dps ….

You do understand that you havent actually shown a 16% DPS difference with great spear of dawn when removing 20STR, right?

You are literally pulling this out of thin air. You haven't provided a parse.

[Lune]

Sorry guys I don’t have a certification in educating special needs kids.

Am I making sense here to literally anyone other than DSM?

Or am I smoking crack?

Yes I was explaining the same concept to him with my theorycrafting

[Troxx]

You do understand that you havent actually shown a 16% DPS difference with great spear of dawn when removing 20STR, right?

You are literally pulling this out of thin air. You haven't provided a parse.

https://media.tenor.com/EGRnJ-5Mza8AAAAd/dr-phil-what.gif

[Troxx]

For strictly theoretical purposes let’s assume that …

-DSM’s level 5 turtle parses are universally true.
-20 str results in 4.3% more dps
-4.3% dps means mobs die when soloing 4.3% faster

Would you, as a:
-new sk with EC gear
-playing a race with very low starting strength
-playing a race universally hated across Norrath
-resulting in rarely having a friendly vendor or banker around you

Would you rather have 4.3% more dps and 20 pounds worth of loot/coin hauling capacity or 20 more intelligence which results in pitifully nothing more mana at 9 scaling up eventually to 200 more mana at 60?

Knowing that:
-without raid gear you might be lucky to have 140- 160 unbuffed str at 60
-stamina will remain low-ish
-as such as a sk you won’t ever cap str without maniacal str (must be cast first) and focus (must be cast second) stack
-and that 200 more maximum mana pool means little to nothing while your ability recover mana (med, clarity, FT, PoTg) will have a huge impact on how many mana-actions you can take over time.

Discuss.

Back to the topic at hand.

Thoughts?

[Lune]

Yea this got brought up on like page 3 and beyond. Don't you know you might be able to cast another lifetap or two at 60?

Kinda regretting putting as much stam as I did into my current dark elf lol

[Ripqozko]

Yea this got brought up on like page 3 and beyond. Don't you know you might be able to cast another lifetap or two at 60?

Kinda regretting putting as much stam as I did into my current dark elf lol

i still dont cap on my dark elf :( in a piece or 2 i will but still took while. let me magelo

edit: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mintmochi_new

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I made a 1 handed video with the turtle:

This is using Frostwrath at 34% worn haste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ouLQOBAoE

Test 01 - At 231 STR, I did 39167 damage over 603 seconds = 64.9 DPS (no ripostes)
Test 02 - At 210 STR, I did 38969 damage over 595 seconds = 65.4 DPS (no ripostes)
DPS difference = -0.5 DPS

Funnily enough, I gained 0.5 DPS after removing 20 STR lol. It just goes to show that RNG can be fickle sometimes.

With my 2 handed video:

This is using Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge with 34% worn haste.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

Test 01 - At 210 STR, I did 37,794 damage over 561 seconds = 67.3 DPS (no ripostes)
Test 02 - At 231 STR, I did 37,303 damage over 531 seconds = 70.25 DPS (no ripostes)
DPS difference = 2.95 DPS

I have a total of ~40 minutes of hitting the turtle, and so far my average DPS with +20 STR is basically 1.5 DPS due to my 1H test providing a 0 DPS difference.

I am still not impressed with the +20 STR for your starting stats.

i still dont cap on my dark elf :( in a piece or 2 i will but still took while. let me magelo

edit: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Mintmochi_new

Nice Magelo! That is a very well geared SK. I always laugh at Hobarts, because one time Aftermath got 3 Hobarts from a single Vulak.

[Ripqozko]

I made a 1 handed video with the turtle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ouLQOBAoE

At 231 STR, I did 39167 damage over 603 seconds = 64.9 DPS (no ripostes)
At 210 STR, I did 38969 damage over 595 seconds = 65.4 DPS (no ripostes)
DPS difference = -0.5 DPS

Funnily enough, I gained 0.5 DPS after removing 20 STR lol. It just goes to show that RNG can be fickle sometimes.

With my 2 handed video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

At 231 STR, I did 37,794 damage over 561 seconds = 67.3 DPS (no ripostes)
At 210 STR, I did 37,303 damage over 531 seconds = 70.25 DPS (no ripostes)
DPS difference = 2.95 DPS

I have a total of roughly 40 minutes of hitting the turtle, and so far my average DPS with +20 STR is basically 1.5 DPS, considering my 1H test provided a 0 DPS difference.

I am still not impressed with the +20 STR for your starting stats.



Nice Magelo! That is a very well geared SK. I always laugh at Hobarts, because one time Aftermath got 3 Hobarts from a single Vulak.

Yea I was there, I was in AM for years

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea I was there, I was in AM for years

I was there too. That was a fun time, back before rooted dragons.

[Jimjam]

Dsm i think your turtle logs may be showing that your attack is completely squelching turtle’s defence (always rolling high - thereby removing the DI variable we are trying to measure).

It’s too laboratory mob. You need to be using something that is applicable to levelling.Troxx does a bit better on this (assuming his top secret skeleton is a fair representation kf an xp mob) but really we need to level a knight to like 30 but not train double attack or riposte so we can eliminate some variables and look at how the average hit improves rather than dps.

If I use a weapon that does 25 dps unbuffed and 20 str gives me 16% more damage - now I’m doing 29dps (a 4 dps difference).

If I am using my Greatspear of Dawn which gives me 65dps white damage unbuffed and 20 more strength gives me 16% more damage - that would give me 75.4 dps (a 10.4 dps difference)

The weapon you are using affects baseline dps ….
Are you certain it would be a similar proportional difference? Obviously str influences the size of the Di component and weights the d20 in favour of rolling higher, but it doesn’t improve damage bonus. Proportionally how much of dps is db for something like a greatspear (excellent) compared to a hate 1hander (good)?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are you certain it would be a similar proportional difference? Obviously str influences the size of the Di component and weights the d20 in favour of rolling higher, but it doesn’t improve damage bonus. Proportionally how much of dps is db for something like a greatspear (excellent) compared to a hate 1hander (good)?

Troxx is talking nonsense. He has no evidence to support his claims.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 This post has 1 handed and 2 handed weapon examples with video and log evidence. Both weapons have very similar ratios. I am getting nowhere near a 16% increase in DPS with either weapon via +20 STR.

After 40 minutes of hitting a turtle, I got an average of 1.5 extra DPS with +20 STR. I don't think this shows a very strong argument for putting your starting points into STR.

Dsm i think your turtle logs may be showing that your attack is completely squelching turtle’s defence (always rolling high - thereby removing the DI variable we are trying to measure).

It’s too laboratory mob. You need to be using something that is applicable to levelling.Troxx does a bit better on this (assuming his top secret skeleton is a fair representation kf an xp mob) but really we need to level a knight to like 30 but not train double attack or riposte so we can eliminate some variables and look at how the average hit improves rather than dps.


People keep making this claim, but have yet to provide any evidence as to why the turtle is a bad mob to test on. I rolled 11 max hits out of 496 hits on my 2 handed video. I am not sure why that is considered to be "always rolling high".

[Jimjam]

Fair point. How many min hits? Did the pattern looked like a skewed normal distribution? If so how did it skew?

[Snaggles]

I spent about an hour and a half attacking Bloodmaw and got very little useful information from it. Average hits are just far too high so attack does very little nor does damage bonus. Really though I expect you wont see much of a difference even if you spent 2 hours parsing on vindi...but this is a game of percentage improvement. Aura of Battle is very expensive for what you get.

For a level 60 knight, 20 strength at 60 is 18 attack (228 down to 208). For a level 53 going from 134 str to 124 str is 17 attack. Grim Aura at that level is 13 attack. If you are trying to do damage (anytime you arent tanking) it's important to be effective at it.

It's more important to have fun. The more you have fun the more likely you will see 60 which is where most classes peak. Getting lost in napkin math wont even make you a much better player, tangible skill goes a long way in this game.

[Lune]

Both weapons have very similar ratios. I am getting nowhere near a 16% increase in DPS with either weapon via +20 STR.

DSM slowly realizes what Troxx has been trying to tell him for four pages

[Lune]

20 str should never ... EVER ... result in a 16% difference in dps. My parse was flawed despite it showing what I wanted it to.

[Lune]

Oh shit, DSM as in DSM-V, I just got it lol

Please tell me it's an elaborate troll

[Troxx]

Are you certain it would be a similar proportional difference? Obviously str influences the size of the Di component and weights the d20 in favour of rolling higher, but it doesn’t improve damage bonus. Proportionally how much of dps is db for something like a greatspear (excellent) compared to a hate 1hander (good)?

I’m not certain at all. I have suspected you are correct due to the DB being static and favoring 2handers. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible. DSM has a deficiency in basic abstract thought and reasoning. You can’t simply say that two parses “showed almost the same results” when the high DPS weapon from NTOV went up by 3 total dps (up 4%) and the crappy 1 hand dps from hate (which does closer to 2/5 the baseline damage … possibly less) had a 4 raw dps improvement (up 16%).

Those findings were nowhere near the same thing - but DSM looks at 3 and 4 and says “oh gosh-jee golly 3 and 4 are both numbers, small numbers and are numbers next to each other!! Huzzah your parse says the same thing as mine!!’

I would prefer to parse with my 2 hander but fights would have been over 2-3x as fast unless I picked a mob with much higher hp. Additionally it has that nasty 725 dmg dot over 6 ticks - my skeleton (top sekrit area where you hunt VP key piece) would have died. I tried to do the dark blue giants in FM at the bottom of the fort but it was camped by 2 59s.

I honestly think Kael arena mobs might be perfect for this with a shaman/knight duo. If the knight is not hasted there is a good chance the regen on the mob keeps pace with a solo knight whacking away.

Regardless, as previously posted I’m disinclined to believe that any further tests would be productive. DSM so wildly ran in the wrong direction with my very bad data … what’s the point?

… unless the point is that we want another 475 pages lol

[Troxx]

Oh shit, DSM as in DSM-V, I just got it lol

Please tell me it's an elaborate troll

It was a tongue in cheek doctorly jab. I’m glad someone picked up on it lol.

https://www.psychiatry.org/getmedia/25e23297-981d-40d7-9409-030e9fb2ab20/hero-DSM-5-TR.png?width=1266&height=720&ext=.png

By the by, I have 2 level 1 female alts named Thelarche and Menarche.

[Troxx]

I spent about an hour and a half attacking Bloodmaw and got very little useful information from it.

I have found bloodmaw and Mr turtle exceptionally good for comparing one weapon setup vs another setup - but that’s about it. Even then because of their low level it still doesn’t give you a perfect reflection of what you would expect on high end raid targets with high ac. In those fights damage bonus becomes a lot more important.

For example prior to the 2hand DB update TStaff and dual wield were very similar on bloodmaw but epic fist + a good offhand won on high ac raid targets due to lightening application of that static DB. After the 2h DB patch, TStaff wins all the time as dmg bonus on 30 delay 2hander is superior to DB on even super fast epic fists.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The meltdown from Troxx has been spectacular, and a little sad. So many paragraphs spouting literal nonsense, instead of simply admitting he was wrong.

He is so afraid to be wrong he cannot even say what mob he was parsing.

For people interested in the topic at hand https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 here is real data. Thus far +20STR has provided me with 1.5 DPS over 40 minutes of autoattacks.

[Crede]

The meltdown from Troxx has been spectacular, and a little sad. So many paragraphs spouting literal nonsense, instead of simply admitting he was wrong.

He is so afraid to be wrong he cannot even say what mob he was parsing.

For people interested in the topic at hand https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 here is real data. Thus far +20STR has provided me with 1.5 DPS over 40 minutes of autoattacks.

Your constant editing is getting super annoying tbh. I actually saw that edit where you further changed it to bash Troxx even more. It's a bit borderline obsessive, you should really work on articulating your thoughts in full before posting.

Regardless, the fact that you showed 20 STR with a 2h increased your dps by nearly 3 pretty much proves that STR is the best leveling stat for a melee. This is something all should be aware of, and can decide what is best for their situation and how they plan to play their char. Even if you cap STR eventually, it's not really a big deal, because the trade off was you got to enjoy that extra DPS for a significant amount of time vs getting some extra mana at 60 once you cap STR that is unlikely to have any actual impact on anything you do besides the comfy feeling of knowing you optimized end game stats, which again depends on the player and how they want to react to it.

[Troxx]

Do you not find it odd that on Mr Turtle your 24/22 1.09 ratio 1hander was only 3.6% less damage than your 46/44 1.04 damage 2 hander with its massive damage bonus advantage?

Keep in mind that you get a damage bonus of 11 with every 1h hit. At 44 delay you get a DB of 37 with every hit. To break that down further at 34% haste assuming you couldn’t double attack per swing:

1h swing every 1.64 seconds for 11 dmg is 6.7 DB dmg per second potential
2h swing per 3.28 seconds for 37 dmg is 11.2 DB dmg per second potential

With double attack the potential difference is 13.4 and 22.4 respectively.

Your ToV 2hander should be putting out a ton more damage than the 1hander.

My parses used a 27/29 (0.93) and at 34% haste I was clocking well under half the damage output you did. The ratio and dmg bonus difference aren’t off by a factor of being 2.17x less damage man

TLDR version: Mr Turtle is a bad parse target.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your constant editing is getting super annoying tbh. I actually saw that edit where you further changed it to bash Troxx even more. It's a bit borderline obsessive, you should really work on articulating your thoughts in full before posting.

Your desire to attack/troll people instead of having civil conversation is a much bigger problem. I am simply defending myself, Troxx started the attacks.


Regardless, the fact that you showed 20 STR with a 2h increased your dps by nearly 3 pretty much proves that STR is the best leveling stat for a melee. This is something all should be aware of, and can decide what is best for their situation and how they plan to play their char. Even if you cap STR eventually, it's not really a big deal, because the trade off was you got to enjoy that extra DPS for a significant amount of time vs getting some extra mana at 60 once you cap STR that is unlikely to have any actual impact on anything you do besides the comfy feeling of knowing you optimized end game stats, which again depends on the player and how they want to react to it.

Thus far my average DPS is 1.5, not 3. This number will probably go down on a lower level character, unless someone can provide evidence to the contrary.

The boost you are getting from STR is small, just like the boost from STA or INT. INT simply gives you it's benefits longer, due to STR being easy to cap.


My fight was against a trivial but nevertheless within xp giving range mob.

TLDR version: Mr Turtle is a bad parse target.

You haven't provided any evidence to suggest the turtle is skewing the data in a way that would matter for this discussion. You can't even tell us what mob you are parsing on lol.


My parses used a 27/29 (0.93) and at 34% haste I was clocking well under half the damage output you did. The ratio and dmg bonus difference aren’t off by a factor of being 2.17x less damage man.

I keep telling you, your parser is probably wrong, and bad. You could give us the logs so we can parse it ourselves.

[Troxx]

You can't even tell us what mob you are parsing on lol.

If you bothered to read, I told you what mob a few posts back.

Do you even read posts fully before commenting?

Edit for Hint: read post 221

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you bothered to read, I told you what mob a few posts back.

Do you even read posts fully before commenting?

You gave a vague description. Mob name and precise location, please. I know what post you are referring to, but I am not sure why you cannot just say the name.

You should have told us in the same post as your parse lol.

[Troxx]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Greater_Plaguebone

I told you why I never mentioned the name. It was not to be secretive… it was because on analyzing the data it became apparent that the whole parse was insufficient to draw any conclusions. In that same post I stated as much. The test showed results so wildly in my favor with a 16% difference in damage between 140 and 160 strength that I knew the data was worthless. Nevertheless I posted my findings complete with an honest breakdown of the flaws and the need to scrap and find a more suitable target. Preferably higher level and where I could grind out a session of at least 2 hours. I was there for a total of a dozen or so short runs - not nearly enough data.

Someone came in and needed the camp for VP key. I chose that particular of the 3 skeletons because it was the highest level of them with the biggest max hit.

I would have needed to gather at least 3-5x more total data to help even out the RNG.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you. Next time please just post the mob, and the logs. There is no reason to hide it.

Due to how low your DPS parse was for the 1H weapon you were using, I am pretty sure your parser is bad at this point.

Frostwrath does output good DPS, nowhere near 29 DPS, even on blue mobs.

[Toxigen]

For strictly theoretical purposes let’s assume that …

-DSM’s level 5 turtle parses are universally true.
-20 str results in 4.3% more dps
-4.3% dps means mobs die when soloing 4.3% faster

Would you, as a:
-new sk with EC gear
-playing a race with very low starting strength
-playing a race universally hated across Norrath
-resulting in rarely having a friendly vendor or banker around you

Would you rather have 4.3% more dps and 20 pounds worth of loot/coin hauling capacity or 20 more intelligence which results in pitifully nothing more mana at 9 scaling up eventually to 200 more mana at 60?

Knowing that:
-without raid gear you might be lucky to have 140- 160 unbuffed str at 60
-stamina will remain low-ish
-as such as a sk you won’t ever cap str without maniacal str (must be cast first) and focus (must be cast second) stack
-and that 200 more maximum mana pool means little to nothing while your ability recover mana (med, clarity, FT, PoTg) will have a huge impact on how many mana-actions you can take over time.

Discuss.

bingo bongo /thread

i cant believe you beautiful autists argued this all afternoon / evening / night

[DeathsSilkyMist]

bingo bongo /thread

1-2 more DPS isn't going to significantly improve your leveling process. Not /thread at all.

[Snaggles]

I have found bloodmaw and Mr turtle exceptionally good for comparing one weapon setup vs another setup - but that’s about it. Even then because of their low level it still doesn’t give you a perfect reflection of what you would expect on high end raid targets with high ac. In those fights damage bonus becomes a lot more important.

For example prior to the 2hand DB update TStaff and dual wield were very similar on bloodmaw but epic fist + a good offhand won on high ac raid targets due to lightening application of that static DB. After the 2h DB patch, TStaff wins all the time as dmg bonus on 30 delay 2hander is superior to DB on even super fast epic fists.

Again in my experience I didn’t learn much. I isolated variables, snared Bloodmaw near velks and combined 30 mins worth of parses for each weapon set. With my ranger two epics were within about 15% of the Meljeldin. The data was so garage I didn’t feel worthwhile to post and draw comparisons here.

In the end I feel the best way to see this stuff in action is to compare your sets (and peers) against non-trivial targets. Weapons like the Frostwrath on greens and blues lead people to believe they rival 2h. They simply do not.

As for how this impacts the sk starting point discussion, no clue lol. We are a bit past that though. Pushing new players to pump intel though usually isn’t the best path. It’s not as stupid as charisma for a paladin but the original devs saw a SK as 80/20 warrior to necro. Combat stats should be the priority.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In the end I feel the best way to see this stuff in action is to compare your sets (and peers) against non-trivial targets. Weapons like the Frostwrath on greens and blues lead people to believe they rival 2h. They simply do not.


Even against blues Frostwrath does pretty similar DPS to my 2h sword. Their ratios are almost identical, with Frostwrath being a little worse. 1h weapons are not as bad as people think. Last time I parsed some HS mobs with Frostwrath vs. my 2h weapon the DPS numbers were also only a few points off.

We are not discussing raid DPS in this thread.

[Troxx]

Due to how low your DPS parse was for the 1H weapon you were using, I am pretty sure your parser is bad at this point.

Frostwrath does output good DPS, nowhere near 29 DPS, even on blue mobs.

I’m inclined to believe it’s pretty accurate. Fully buffed and hasted with 255 strength the Darkmetal Falchion was never an impressive weapon. It fluctuates under FULL buff conditions between 50-60dps with some random fights potentially lower and other really lucky fights maybe closer to 70. So 29dps with 95 strength under the cap, only worn haste at 34% and not using Yaulp - I believe the range of DPS Gamparse was clocking was very accurate.

My NTOV spear is closer to double. It’s nice putting out 80-85 dps on the low end and 115-120 dps on the lucky upper end in groups.

I didn’t have nearly enough fights/data - that was the biggest problem.

If parsed on Mr Turtle and I expect to have much higher numbers.

Because he’s level 5 - not level 43.

Frostwrath is a fine weapon. It shouldn’t be giving you numbers so close to your ToV 2 hander. I suspect it is doing so because … your target was level 5.

Edit: frostwrath will do a lot better than 27/29. Baseline ratio is 15% better and DB contributions with lower delay has a 30% advantage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m inclined to believe it’s pretty accurate. Fully buffed and hasted with 255 strength it was never an impressive weapon. It fluctuates under FULL buff conditions between 50-60dps. So 29dps with 95 strength under the cap, only worn haste at 34% and not using Yaulp - I believe the range of DPS Gamparse was clocking was very accurate.

I didn’t have nearly enough fights/data - that was the biggest problem.

If parsed on Mr Turtle and I expect to have much higher numbers.

Because he’s level 5 - not level 43.

Frostwrath is a fine weapon. It shouldn’t be giving you numbers so close to your ToV 2 hander. I suspect it is doing so because … your target was level 5.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Darkmetal_Falchion has a ratio of 1.25 with 34% haste.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostwrath has a ratio of 1.46 with 34% haste.

You are not going to be getting less than half my DPS when the ratios are only 15% different. You should be getting at least 40 DPS on average, probably more like 50.

Your parser is bad.

[Snaggles]

For reference, the “info”. I figure rather than just being dismissive of the concept it’s best to show. The setup was rather perfect in terms of isolating variables. I can’t imagine parsing longer to get more consistent results. I’ll just compare myself to other guildies on raid targets over time and draw empirical conclusions.

Earthcaller/Swiftwind = 74,012 over 688 seconds = 107dps average
Vyemm whip/swiftwind = 71,059 over 597 seconds = 119 dps
Vyemm whip/claw of Lightning = 71,542 over 576 seconds = 124 dps
Meljeldin = 74,358 over 605 seconds = 122 dps

As you can see the 2hs is not shining as it should. The dmg bonus/delay is higher than 1h so in harder to damage targets that advantage should be evidently clear. It’s part of the reason mage pets parse along with 1h knights on Vindi where 2h knights are much higher on the chart. Compared on lower level stuff where the the water pet can smoke casual monks.

[Troxx]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Darkmetal_Falchion has a ratio of 1.25 with 34% haste.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostwrath has a ratio of 1.46 with 34% haste.

You are not going to be getting less than half my DPS when the ratios are only 15% different. You should be getting at least 40 DPS on average, probably more like 50.

Your parser is bad.

Baseline ratio is 15% better and DB contributions with lower delay has a 30% advantage.

Those weapons are not in the same ballpark.

Gamparse is fine.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Baseline ratio is 15% better and DB contributions with lower delay has a 30% advantage.

Those weapons are not in the same ballpark.

Gamparse is fine.

You could share the logs so we can confirm it. I am not sure what the big deal is if Gamparse isn't working correctly. That should be a good thing, because you can get better parses using a different program, or manually doing it.

Based on your DPS values, it seems like something fishy is going on with Gamparse. I am guessing it is adding a bunch of extra time to the fight, which will lower the average DPS. It doesn't have a good handle on when the fights start and end.

[Snaggles]

We are not discussing raid DPS in this thread.

I saw the discussion of how strength affects a parse on a level 4 turtle. My point is it doesn’t. Drawing conclusions on the benefit of attack power when almost every hit is near maximum is a silly test. It’s like discussing the benefits of having a 4K mana SK if you never get past 75% mana while playing.

Yea it’s something to consider. But at least compare a situation that matters. My parse may not be enough to convince anyone here. It’s enough to convince me I won’t continue to spend hours for data that isn’t helping guide decisions. Whether in gear or how to select starting points.

I’m definitely backing out of this one. Page 9 to page 22 in one day? Wow.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I saw the discussion of how strength affects a parse on a level 4 turtle. My point is it doesn’t. Drawing conclusions on the benefit of attack power when almost every hit is near maximum is a silly test. It’s like discussing the benefits of having a 4K mana SK if you never get past 75% mana while playing.

Yea it’s something to consider. But at least compare a situation that matters. My parse may not be enough to convince anyone here. It’s enough to convince me I won’t continue to spend hours for data that isn’t helping guide decisions. Whether in gear or how to select starting points.

I’m definitely backing out of this one. Page 9 to page 22 in one day? Wow.

I am not sure why people keep saying "every hit is a near maximum on the turtle". I got 11 max hits out of 496 on the turtle. Why do people keep saying the same nonsense?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211

I posted this in the video description for the 2h test:

Recorded highest hit with 210 STR: 250 Damage
Recorded highest hit with 231 STR: 258 Damage

Total number of 250+ Damage hits across the entire test: 11 hits
Total number of hits across the entire test: 496 hits
Percentage of hits that were max damage or above the 210 STR max damage: 2.2%

[Troxx]

No it even reports real time dps in a heads up display that projects over p99. It both gives you a continuous readout and compiles the results by fight within the program.

From the second I take my first swing the log starts and you even watch it continuously report where you’re at as each swing/miss occurs.

I strongly encourage you to play with. It is excellent. The only area where you have to be careful is when multiple people are engaging at very different times. It will frequently spit out their dps as a function of total fight time. For example if a monk is doing 100dps but only engages for the second half of the fight - it will report they were doing 50dps. The program does have a function to look at “adjusted”
Dps and will then give you the number for just the time they were engaged.

It’s a stellar program, you just have to understand it’s one quirk in this regard.

Give it a try. It’s amazingly user friendly and it does give you that heads up display.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No it even reports real time dps in a heads up display that projects over p99. It both gives you a continuous readout and compiles the results by fight within the program.

From the second I take my first swing the log starts and you even watch it continuously report where you’re at as each swing/miss occurs.

I strongly encourage you to play with. It is excellent. The only area where you have to be careful is when multiple people are engaging at very different times. It will frequently spit out their dps as a function of total fight time. For example if a monk is doing 100dps but only engages for the second half of the fight - it will report they were doing 50dps. The program does have a function to look at “adjusted”
Dps and will then give you the number for just the time they were engaged.

It’s a stellar program, you just have to understand it’s one quirk in this regard.

Give it a try. It’s amazingly user friendly and it does give you that heads up display.

Please post the logs so we can confirm it is working. I am not sure why that is a problem.

[Troxx]

For one, I am on my iPhone at work ….

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For one, I am on my iPhone at work ….

That is fine, you can post them when you get home. I am not in a rush. I just want to see if there is an issue with Gameparse.

[Troxx]

I suggest you just download it and give it a whirl. My bet is you’ll end up getting hooked. I load up gameparse and get it settled before I even finish logging in.

/log on

Filter out others misses
Filter in your misses
Filter in everyone’s hits

It gives you real time data on you, your pet, and everyone else and their pets melee. It also gives you a breakdown of defensive information and mob damage output.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I suggest you just download it and give it a whirl. My bet is you’ll end up getting hooked. I load up gameparse and get it settled before I even finish logging in.

/log on

Filter out others misses
Filter in your misses
Filter in everyone’s hits

It gives you real time data on you, your pet, and everyone else and their pets melee. It also gives you a breakdown of defensive information and mob damage output.

The problem is I cannot see how you set up Gameparse. It could be that the program is fine, but there are issues with your settings. Or you are using a buggy version. There is no way for me to know.

I could also mess up my Gameparse somehow.

If you post the logs, we don't need to worry about that. It is the easiest solution here.

[Troxx]

I’ll post you a log when I get home lol. Your mistrust of the program is comical. These are not complicated programs.

In the meantime - how about you put in some actual leg work and parse vs something that isn’t level 5.

[Jimjam]

Oh grats 60 btw dsm!