sk starting points [Archive] - Page 2

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DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 11:32 AM

I’ll post you a log when I get home lol.

Thank you!

Oh grats 60 btw dsm!

Thanks! Finally got my SK to 60. Feels good:D

Snaggles

08-10-2023, 12:14 PM

I am not sure why people keep saying "every hit is a near maximum on the turtle". I got 11 max hits out of 496 on the turtle. Why do people keep saying the same nonsense?

It’s context. I have thousands of melee parses on raid trash and bosses. The average hit on Bloodmaw or that stupid turtle is higher than Dain. IE: damage bonus is doing less of the heavy lifting. Avatar and other attack buffs are shifting the curve up less. Most Dain dps are doing 45-65dps. That stupid bear I was doing over 120 self hasted.

Gameparse shows my average hit to Bloodmaw with a Meljeldin is 144, max is 275. On Vindi in one parse it’s 118 with a max of 275. On Dain it’s a bit hard to find a good example since I’m often using the BFG for part of the fight but one example of 2h-only is average hit 76 and max hit of 216. That’s half the average hit of Bloodmaw hence the damage bonus and attack bonuses aren’t doing as much as on tougher raid targets. Mine were isolated anyways with capped Str and self buffs with self haste (91%) for every fight.

It’s not like the target is sitting but it’s not putting up much of a fight on something twice or more it’s level.

Please let me know if I can clarify. Not trying to be dismissive here. I just personally don’t have the time to parse on BM or Squirtle for a whole day to try and smooth out the curve. Even then, it’s not giving dmg bonus or attack power its rightful place. I bet a mage pet would parse high too…but that doesn’t matter when something is a super red con (or even a blue)

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 12:19 PM

It’s context. I have thousands of melee parses on raid trash and bosses. The average hit on Bloodmaw or that stupid turtle is higher than Dain. IE: damage bonus is doing less of the heavy lifting. Avatar and other attack buffs are shifting the curve up less. Most Dain dps are doing 45-65dps. That stupid bear I was doing over 120 self hasted.

Gameparse shows my average hit to Bloodmaw with a Meljeldin is 144, max is 275. On Vindi in one parse it’s 118 with a max of 275. On Dain it’s a bit hard to find a good example since I’m often using the BFG for part of the fight but one example of 2h-only is average hit 76 and max hit of 216. That’s half the average hit of Bloodmaw hence the damage bonus and attack bonuses aren’t doing much. Mine were isolated anyways with capped Str and self buffs with self haste (91%) for every fight.

It’s not like the target is sitting but it’s not putting up much of a fight on something twice or more it’s level.

I completely agree with you that raid parses are different from non-raid parses. Nor have I ever said otherwise. I just don't think this is relevant.

If my DPS is 20% higher on the turtle, for example, the average DPS difference between 20 STR on a harder mob will simply be lower. This is because the DPS numbers of both parses (with and without 20 STR) will be lower. A lower average DPS number supports my position.

You would need to show that the DPS difference of 20 STR is actually going to get bigger on a harder mob. So far, nobody has actually shown this.

My turtle example is basically showing the best case scenario: the biggest DPS difference you are going to see.

Snaggles

08-10-2023, 12:24 PM

I thought you were trying to objectively understand if attack power (ie strength) was worthwhile. Not explain how steamrolling green cons isn’t significantly faster with 20 more strength.

I’m not a brilliant mind at this stuff but have Gameparse and a 10 key. I can draw conclusions. Troxx was correct, most small SK’s will be undercapped unless you stack Maniacal Strength before Focus. Likely if geared properly for tanking but without BiS gear 30-40 points. That’s basically CoTP…

I cap with only Focus and Yaulp4 when I take off the Chokidai pauldrons That’s 40 str over the attached.
I wouldn’t say my gear is good but it’s attainable for a casual raider. I also stupidly put 20 str in at starting (90 unbuffed). It’s probably relative to the OP’s question.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Vojun

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 12:31 PM

I thought you were trying to objectively understand if attack power (ie strength) was worthwhile. Not explain how steamrolling green cons isn’t significantly faster with 20 more strength.

We are trying to determine if 20 STR is giving you a worthwhile DPS increase.

The issue is you are making the assumption that the data from the turtle cannot be used, while providing no evidence to support this claim.

You would need to show that the DPS difference between having 20 STR and not having 20 STR will result in a LARGER DPS difference on tougher mobs. Otherwise, having lower DPS simply means the DPS difference will also shrink, which supports my position.

I’m not a brilliant mind at this stuff but have Gameparse and a 10 key. I can draw conclusions. Troxx was correct, most small SK’s will be undercapped unless you stack Maniacal Strength before Focus. Likely if geared properly for tanking but without BiS gear 30-40 points. That’s basically CoTP…

You don't need 200+ STR while leveling to be successful. With EC gear you can get 170+ STR https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK pretty easily on an Iksar, and I leveled my SK with that much STR for a long time.

Telling people who are twinking their characters that 20 STR will significantly help them is simply not true, and I have evidence to back it up so far https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 . STR is generally the worst primary stat to dump your points into on a melee, due to how easy it is to cap it in various situations, long before full BiS gear.

Snaggles

08-10-2023, 12:45 PM

Attack is the only stat that gives you an advantage every time you swing a weapon.
Stamina is max hps
Intel is max mana.

If stamina reduced the rate you lost hps or intel increased your mana regen this would be different. I’m not saying it’s a zero sum game, unless your gear is extremely good most players will benefit from the more common stat picks. There is a case to make for a dex rogue (pre-avatar), charisma warrior, intel sk, charisma or wisdom paladin. These are just more extreme edge case examples. Every melee I’ve ever soloed to 60 (or even past mid 50’s was on a single npc so it’s not a mana limited/throttled situation like quadding.

So when a new player doesn’t define what their end goal is and asks for stat advice I tend to go with the info that favors 90%+ of the players. Unlike a bad WoW build you can’t really “break” a class here. You can’t respec but it’s just not like clinically bad trait picks.

Crede

08-10-2023, 12:47 PM

We are trying to determine if 20 STR is giving you a worthwhile DPS increase.

The issue is you are making the assumption that the data from the turtle cannot be used, while providing no evidence to support this claim.

You would need to show that the DPS difference between having 20 STR and not having 20 STR will result in a LARGER DPS difference on tougher mobs. Otherwise, having lower DPS simply means the DPS difference will also shrink, which supports my position.

You don't need 200+ STR while leveling to be successful. With EC gear you can get 170+ STR https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK pretty easily on an Iksar, and I leveled my SK with that much STR for a long time.

Telling people who are twinking their characters that 20 STR will significantly help them is simply not true, and I have evidence to back it up so far https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 . STR is generally the worst primary stat to dump your points into on a melee, due to how easy it is to cap it in various situations, long before full BiS gear.

There is no way to measure a "Worthwhile DPS increase". To some that could be 2 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 20 dps, etc. Where do you draw the boundary? It all depends on the user. The best you can do is present information and let people decide what they want to do.

This thread has shown what we have already known about STR for years. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The advantages of each starting stat are clear and obvious to all. STR is great if you never plan to cap it. If you do end up capping it, that's ok too, your char won't be ruined, you might have just missed out on some extra mana in the end. But if you are trying to make the best magelo possible, then yea, go INT. It does offer some leveling benefits as well, which is why I recommended INT to check most of the boxes, but if you are trying to maximize the leveling process then STR is probably your best move.

Put this to rest already.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 12:53 PM

There is no way to measure a "Worthwhile DPS increase". To some that could be 2 dps, 5 dps, 10 dps, 20 dps, etc. Where do you draw the boundary? It all depends on the user. The best you can do is present information and let people decide what they want to do.

This thread has shown what we have already known about STR for years. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. The advantages of each starting stat are clear and obvious to all. STR is great if you never plan to cap it. If you do end up capping it, that's ok too, your char won't be ruined, you might have just missed out on some extra mana in the end. But if you are trying to make the best magelo possible, then yea, go INT. It does offer some leveling benefits as well, which is why I recommended INT to check most of the boxes, but if you are trying to maximize the leveling process then STR is probably your best move.

Put this to rest already.

Of course everything depends on the user. I am not forcing anybody to do anything. Nor am I saying anybody's character has been ruined.

I am giving people the facts, so they can use them how they wish. So far https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 , I have seen a 1.5 DPS increase from 20 STR, which is giving you maybe 2 more kills per hour at lower levels. It's not going to be noticeable for most people.

Nobody is saying STR is a bad stat. I am not either. People seem to be in denial at how easy the stat is to cap. Once a stat is capped from gear, buffs, etc., you get zero benefit from it.

I have soloed for years without max STR. You will do fine without an extra 20 STR. I have been STR capped in groups for years as well with buffs.

INT will basically never be capped on an SK, so putting your points there will give you some benefit for your entire characters life cycle. That makes it the objectively best stat to dump your points into in most scenarios. The exception is a SSF character or your first character on a server. Typically an SSF character is going to be much more difficult to play, and the first character you create on a server is often times your money maker, not a character you plan on min/maxing.

Crede

08-10-2023, 01:00 PM

Of course everything depends on the user. I am not forcing anybody to do anything.

I am giving people the facts, so they can use them how they wish. So far https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 , I have seen a 1.5 DPS increase from 20 STR, which is giving you maybe 2 more kills per hour at lower levels. It's not going to be noticeable for most people.

Nobody is saying STR is a bad stat. I am not either. People seem to be in denial at how easy the stat is to cap. Once a stat is capped from gear, buffs, etc., you get zero benefit from it.

I have soloed for years without max STR. You will do fine without it. I have been STR capped in groups for years as well with buffs.

INT will basically never be capped on an SK, so putting your points there will give you some benefit for your entire characters life cycle. That makes it the objectively best stat to dump your points into in most scenarios. The exception is a SSF character or your first character on a server. Typically an SSF character is going to be much more difficult to play, and the first character you create on a server is often times your money maker, not a character you plan on min/maxing.

There is no need to consistently say "You'll do fine without STR". We are debating starting stats which are largely irrelevant anyway. You'll do fine without 20 extra INT too. You'll do fine if you cap STR sooner too. Just means you got to enjoy more STR longer than the person who didn't start with STR.

STR is also not super easy to cap without shaman buffs. A lot of people don't want to have a handicap on their strength where they consistently have to rely on buffs to hit max str. Even your decently geared troll SK is not str capped self buffed. This number would be much lower for a DE/erudite.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 01:04 PM

There is no need to consistently say "You'll do fine without STR". We are debating starting stats which are largely irrelevant anyway. You'll do fine without 20 extra INT too. You'll do fine if you cap STR sooner too.

Exactly. This has been my point. You will do fine regardless of where you put your starting stats. Therefore, put them into the stat that is the hardest to cap.

We are debating starting stats which are largely irrelevant anyway.
...
A lot of people don't want to have a handicap on their strength

You cannot simultaneously say "players will have a handicap on their strength", while also saying "starting stats are largely irrelevant". You need to pick one.

I am not sure where the disagreement is here if you agree that "starting stats are largely irrelevant".

Snaggles

08-10-2023, 01:14 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 01:18 PM

Stats matter = they can be measured and do make a literal difference (to a point)
Largely irrelevant = it won’t allow you to do or not do anything.

If a handicap is defined as a statistical disadvantage (or even a carry weight to encumbrance), Crede is correct. If he means the inability to perform a task at all he’s more likely wrong. I 100% understood at the first because he seems to approach this game logically.

If having 80 STR vs. 100 STR is a significant handicap, then starting stats are NOT irrelevant.

You can't have it both ways. I am all for nuance in argument, but this is simply a logical inconsistency.

A nuanced argument would look like this:

"Starting stats are irrelevant for a number of class/race combinations. For example, Troll Shadowknights already have enough STR/STA to be successful, even without starting stats. Therefore, starting stats are irrelevant for Troll Shadowknights.

However, a Gnome Warrior starts with 60 STR. This is a significant handicap, and therefore starting stats are NOT irrelevant for them. You need to put X points into STR as a Gnome Warrior, otherwise you will run in to non-trivial issues".

Factually speaking, even a Gnome Warrior can achieve 150+ Strength with cheap EC gear. This means the nuanced argument example I gave above is not actually true for any player who can twink their Gnome Warrior.

Snaggles

08-10-2023, 01:22 PM

Who added the word “significant”? The OP asked about starting stats on an Iksar. I’m pretty sure we all agreed on page 1 it didn’t really matter.

I’m out. You win.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 01:25 PM

Who added the word “significant”? The OP asked about starting stats on an Iksar. I’m pretty sure we all agreed on page 1 it didn’t really matter.

I’m out. You win.

I agree, OP will not run into any significant issues due to starting stat allocation. This is especially true as a twinked character.

INT is the hardest stat to cap on a Shadowknight, and therefore the best choice for your starting stats. This is because you will receive the benefit from this choice for the entire lifespan of your character. You will never run into the situation where the stat has become capped.

If you put 20 points into STR, and your STR is sometimes at 290/255, this means your starting stat allocation has become useless for certain periods of your character's lifespan. For STR specifically, it is extremely easy to cap well before you have full BiS gear. Avatar + Focus of Spirit + Maniacal Strength is giving you +235 STR. This means you can cap STR on a naked Gnome Warrior simply with buffs.

Ripqozko

08-10-2023, 01:48 PM

I agree, OP will not run into any significant issues due to starting stat allocation. This is especially true as a twinked character.

INT is the hardest stat to cap on a Shadowknight, and therefore the best choice for your starting stats. This is because you will receive the benefit from this choice for the entire lifespan of your character. You will never run into the situation where the stat has become capped.

If you put 20 points into STR, and your STR is sometimes at 290/255, this means your starting stat allocation has become useless for certain periods of your character's lifespan. For STR specifically, it is extremely easy to cap well before you have full BiS gear. Avatar + Focus of Spirit + Maniacal Strength is giving you +235 STR. This means you can cap STR on a naked Gnome Warrior simply with buffs.

I disagree, with my Magelo posted I can’t max sta, I can int with bard and e tho .

Edit: it would be even worse without starting points in sta.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 01:55 PM

I disagree, with my Magelo posted I can’t max sta, I can int with bard and e tho .

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan

You can cap both STR and STA on a BiS Erudite SK without buffs. Starting stats were 15 points into INT, and 5 points into AGI to get the 75 AGI minimum. This Magelo also has enough DEX to cap with Avatar.

If you can STR and STA cap an Erudite without buffs, you can do the same with a Dark Elf.

INT is still not capped, which means you are still benefiting from the starting stats. It is true you can get an INT buff, but you will be at a higher INT than other SK's if you choose to decline an INT buff for whatever reason.

Ripqozko

08-10-2023, 01:59 PM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan

You can cap both STR and STA on a BiS Erudite SK without buffs. Starting stats were put into INT, and 5 points were put into AGI to get them to the 75 AGI minimum. This means you can do the same on a Dark Elf. This Magelo also has enough DEX to cap with Avatar.

As you can see, INT is still not capped. This means you can make use of an INT buff. You don't need STR or STA buffs at all on this Erudite SK.

I'm saying right now with more gear than most get I can't cap sta but I can int wirh e and a bard

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 02:03 PM

I'm saying right now with more gear than most get I can't cap sta but I can int wirh e and a bard

That is not relevant to be honest. I can show that you can cap STR and STA, which means putting your starting stats into INT is going to give you a benefit for a longer period of your character's life cycle. I cannot control how you choose to gear your character, or which race you choose.

If you agree that starting stats are irrelevant, you are also admitting an extra 104 HP is not going to be significant. In your case, it is only 21 HP since you are 4 STA short.

Ripqozko

08-10-2023, 02:05 PM

That is not relevant to be honest. I can show that you can cap STR and STA, which means putting your starting stats into INT is going to give you a benefit for a longer period of your character's life cycle. I cannot control how you choose to gear your character, or which race you choose.

If you agree that starting stats are irrelevant, you are also admitting an extra 104 HP is not going to be significant. In your case, it is only 21 HP since you are 4 STA short.

No I’m saying sta is harder than int to cap as someone with a significantly more gear than most get as a DE. Not everyone wants to be ugly. It’s not even debatable I posted my stats and gear. I’m telling you straight up. Maybe different for other races but for DE.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 02:07 PM

No I’m saying sta is harder than int to cap as someone with a significantly more gear than most get as a DE.

This is factually not true: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan

You can cap STR and STA on an Erudite/Dark Elf SK with just BiS gear, and no buffs. I have the proof.

You simply need another BiS item to cap your STA, and there are multiple options for you. Vulak arms are a great example.

If you want something easier to obtain, https://wiki.project1999.com/Onyx_Chain_Sleeves will work for you too.

Ripqozko

08-10-2023, 02:10 PM

This is factually not true: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan

You can cap STR and STA on an Erudite/Dark Elf SK with just BiS gear, and no buffs. I have the proof.

You simply need another BiS item to cap your STA, and there are multiple options for you. Vulak arms are a great example.

If you want something easier to obtain, https://wiki.project1999.com/Onyx_Chain_Sleeves will work for you too.

Ok man even when I present ya with stuff ya say well ya just need one more bis , when most can’t even achieve what I have. I already cap int and ya not acknowledging it.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 02:14 PM

Ok man even when I present ya with stuff ya say well ya just need one more bis , when most can’t even achieve what I have. I already cap int and ya not acknowledging it.

You can cap INT before STA with non BiS gear too. That doesn't mean the gear choices that lead you to this scenario are ideal.

It is factually true that Velious raid gear for tanks has more STR and STA than INT in most cases. You can simply look at the wiki pages for SK gear if you do not believe me.

This means it is easier to obtain enough gear to cap STA and STR instead of INT. This is a fact, which can be proven by looking at the items available in the game.

Ripqozko

08-10-2023, 02:15 PM

You can cap INT before STA with non BiS gear too. That doesn't mean the gear choices that lead you to this scenario are ideal.

It is factually true that Velious raid gear for tanks has more STR and STA than INT in most cases. You can simply look at the wiki pages for SK gear if you do not believe me.

This means it is easier to obtain enough gear to cap STA and STR instead of INT factually speaking.

You said int is harder than sta to cap, I’m presenting factual info and you just shit on it.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 02:18 PM

You said int is harder than sta to cap, I’m presenting factual info and you just shit on it.

If I provided you a Magelo that has nothing but INT items on an SK, would you say that is a good setup, just because it proves the point that INT can be capped before STR and STA? No, you would say the setup is bad, because I am putting a bunch of gear on my tank that doesn't have AC, Resists, HP, etc.

The reality is there are only a few items in the game for each slot that are considered BiS. Statistically speaking, Velious raid gear that fits the BiS profile will have STR and STA, not INT. This means you have a higher probability of capping those stats first.

Because there are so many gear combinations, you can only go off of the probabilities. Of course you can end up with a slightly different setup, but unless you planned out exactly which gear you were going to get, you don't actually know what setup you will end up with when you start your character.

Ripqozko

08-10-2023, 02:20 PM

If I provided you a Magelo that has nothing but INT items on an SK, would you say that is a good setup, just because it proves the point that INT can be capped before STR and STA? No, you would say the setup is bad, because I am putting a bunch of gear on my tank that doesn't have AC, Resists, HP, etc.

The reality is there are only a few items in the game for each slot that are considered BiS. Statistically speaking, Velious raid gear that fits the BiS profile will have STR and STA, not INT. This means you have a higher probability of capping those stats first.

Because there are so many gear combinations, you can only go off of the probabilities. Of course you can end up with a slightly different setup, but unless you planned out exactly which gear you were going to get, you don't actually know what setup you will end up with when you start your character.

Ok I give up, you win whatever you said is right and I’m wrong. Take care I’m done.

Lune

08-10-2023, 02:38 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 02:41 PM

The leveling benefits of INT are extremely minor

The benefits of STR are also extremely minor, if you agree starting stats are not relevant. This isn't a point in your favor.

OP can get all the STR they need from EC gear.

Troxx

08-10-2023, 03:13 PM

Everything important that needed to be said was said by page 3-4. The last 20-25 pages has mostly just been DSM trying to tell everyone else that they are all wrong and he is right.

It has been established that:

-Str will result in more DPS.
-Str will result in shorter fights.
-Str will improve carrying capacity.
-most knight alts won’t statistically make it to 60
-Very few players will ever be seeing BiS gear unless they are already one of those extreme raiders working on their next twink toy alt
-Iksars SKs have terrible starting str for a melee
-Iksars won’t ever cap their str without buffs unless in BiS gear
-Iksars SKs at 60 with reasonable gear for level 60 (best EC, group gear, velious quest armor, and a few raid pieces) will likely still not hit str cap without some fairly massive shaman buffs
-All melees will always want more strength all the time right up to that 255 cap

These are all known variables.

What is also known:

-mana recovery (med, buffs, FT) for ROUTINE situations is the ONLY important factor in mana actions per minute.
-emergency mana recovery (twitch, mod rods) for extraordinary situations is the next in the conga line
-a bigger mana pool DOES NOT give you more mana actions per time, it just allows you to get an extra spell off in extraordinary circumstances where you otherwise would have run out. It may also let you go just a tad longer between med breaks, but your med breaks will be longer.

Seriously, anyone who has played a knight knows that you’ll spend 99.9% of your active play/fighting time somewhere between 10-95% mana and 85% of that time between maybe 25-85 mana. Mana pool becomes more import for clerics in a cheal chain, spot healers starting from full on raids, wizards expecting to start the raid burn at 100m and maybe enchanters doing some baller hard content solo.

For knights (especially shadow knights) you have to do some SERIOUS theorycrafting with worst case scenarios or hat trick solo artist crap with already stellar gear before you can come up with a scenario where the shadow knight having 200 more mana was literally the reason for success where failure was otherwise gonna happen. 200 mana at 60 is basically maybe 1 extra Drain Soul for a 338 heal.

For those “never gonna actually happen” scenarios - simply having a 10 dose wort pot available provides a much more significant safety net. If you needed that extra 200 mana to land a FD - serious errors in judgement and poor play are the culprit, not a lack of a slightly larger mana pool.

If we knew that this person was taking his iksar sk to level 60 with BiS gear and they only cared about final endgame stats, yes intelligence is the answer. If a troll or ogre, 100% intelligence all the way.

As much as I would love to see some parses from DSM on something other than a level 5 turtle (cough cough) - even his lil Mr Turtle parses showed a 4.3% increase in dps with a 20 strength difference. Confident though I am a bigger difference would be against a level-appropriate target, 4.3% is actually significant enough to settle the issue.

If you as a tank thing you could do to make you take 4.3% less damage … oh lord we as tanks would be all over it.

The primary jobs of any tank (in order)
1) hold aggro (easy for knights)
2) not die and don’t take too much damage (easy with level/content-appropriate gear)
3) help it die faster. Faster kills is more xp. Faster kills is shorter fights and less damage taken
3*) if you’re a knight - the smattering of other cool things your spells let you do. Situationally this may take precedence over 3 - even mid-fight.

At least for paladins an extra 200 mana might allow you to toss a HoT on self/other for an emergency 700-825 heal. Even then, as a paladin haven’t had a single case where a 200 deeper max mana pool would have made the difference.

Everything important has already been said. Knowing how these threads predictably play out when DSM is on a roll trying to napkin math why he is right and everyone else is wrong …. we’re headed for another 50-page’r.

Tally ho!

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 03:43 PM

...
Everything important has already been said. Knowing how these threads predictably play out when DSM is on a roll trying to napkin math why he is right and everyone else is wrong …. we’re headed for another 50-page’r.

Your contribution to this thread so far has been a parse that you claim is invalid, and silly gifs. Do you think people will believe you if you just keep posting nonsense? The only laughable napkin math in this thread was here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633675&postcount=203 . There is no reason for you to believe that you will get a 16% damage boost on another weapon with +20 STR simply due to a single parse showing a 4 DPS difference.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 - This post that I wrote has two videos with log evidence for the DPS differences between having 20 STR and not having 20 STR. This is not napkin math by any stretch of the imagination, and is more evidence than everybody who has posted in this thread combined.

My data currently shows an average of 1.5 DPS gained with +20 STR. This will probably be lower on lower level characters with worse gear, unless someone can provide evidence otherwise.

Simply saying STR gives you more DPS and shortens the fight is misleading, because it is currently shown that these DPS gains aren't large enough to affect a casual player in a meaningful way, especially a twinked one.

The facts still stand:

1. INT is the hardest stat to cap on an SK, as shown here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan
2. STR is the easiest stat to cap in the game, as you can get +235 STR from Avatar + Focus of Spirit + Maniacal Strength.
3. Everybody in this thread agrees starting stats are largely irrelevant, including Troxx.
4. If starting stats are largely irrelevant, you are also admitting the 1.5 DPS or less gained from +20 STR is also largely irrelevant.

The interesting thing is nobody disagrees with the facts above if you look at their posts. It should be trivial to conclude that INT is the right choice, simply due to it providing a benefit for the longest period of time.

Troxx

08-10-2023, 04:05 PM

Knowing how these threads predictably play out when DSM is on a roll trying to napkin math why he is right and everyone else is wrong ….

And, as anticipated, DSM replies in his most predictable manner.

https://media.tenor.com/5iXomuvuRQ4AAAAC/drop-the-mic-obama-mic-drop.gif

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 04:07 PM

And, as anticipated, DSM replies in his most predictable manner.

As per usual, when you are proven wrong, you result to trolling. Thank you for continuing to show your true colors.

Hopefully you will provide your logs when you get home.

Troxx

08-10-2023, 04:15 PM

Show of hands guys … who here other than DSM thinks I’ve been “proven wrong”.

I’ve taken a pretty holistic approach here I’d think.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 04:19 PM

Show of hands guys … who here other than DSM thinks I’ve been “proven wrong”.

I’ve taken a pretty holistic approach here I’d think.

You haven't taken a holistic approach. As per usual, you want people who already agree with you to agree with you via a vote. Somehow you think this is proof lol. You do love your argumentum ad populum fallacy.

I have provided real evidence https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 . You have provided evidence you claim is invalid, and silly gifs.

It is ok to admit you are wrong, or come back with better evidence. You don't have to try and save face with silly gifs and endless nonsense posting.

Snaggles

08-10-2023, 04:25 PM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Statistics#Intelligence_.28INT.29

The last 20 points in your example are subject to the soft cap. Grats on like 80 mana.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 04:26 PM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Statistics#Intelligence_.28INT.29

The last 20 points in your example are subject to the soft cap. Grats on like 80 mana.

Gaining roughly 110 mana is better than having 300/255 STR, which is +0 DPS. You get somewhere between 11-12 mana per INT/WIS under 200 at level 60, and half of that over 200. I say "somewhere between" because the decimal value actually changes based on how much INT/WIS you have gained. It is an interesting phenomenon, which I assume is due to rounding.

Having 110ish more mana means you have 1-2 extra FDs, which can save your life. An Iksar will not have access to Blood Ember Clickies, so they are going to be using more mana. They also do not have the option of manaless FD via Blood Ember Greaves.

Troxx

08-10-2023, 05:51 PM

Purpose of this post is to provide raw logs DSM requested so that he can use his special brand of Sherlock Holmes analytical prowess and/or parsing tool of this log. GamParse is not a legitimate tool because DSM doesn't think GamParse is any good - he doesn't trust it. He felt that a 160str Paladin with Darkmetal Falchion with 34% worn haste should be doing more than 29dps. I submit a fight for his review so that he can get over his skepticism with regards to this (most excellent) parsing tool.

I make good on what I agree to make good on.

Highest hit from skeleton to me over the course of all 14 fights was 112 so max hit for this mob implying it was max level at 43. The same exact mob was used for every fight.

Greater plaguebone on 8/9/2023 in 114sec

Mithromir
--- DMG: 3165 @ 28 sdps (28 dps in 114s) [100%]
------ Total: 3165 -- Slash: 3165
------ Normal rate: 100% (100% of DMG)
------ Attempts: 88 -- Hits: 48 -- Misses: 32 -- Defended: 8 -- Accuracy: 60%
--- DMG to PC: 1574 @14dps

Special: 2: Infusion 6: Staunch 7: Intensity 9: Armor B: MB | LB | HT G: Glyph K: Kiss M: Secrets X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.6.1.7

There are 3 recorded ripostes in this fight.
Average hit was 65

Pertinent time Stamps on log file:

15:04:29 - mob pull
15:04:35 - engage
15:06:26 - mob rooted
15:06:28/29 - final it hits me I hit it

ACTUAL TIME ON FIGHT BY LOG TIME STAMPS: 114 seconds
Gamparse calculates the fight as lasting ... 114 seconds

Raw log File:

[Wed Aug 09 15:04:29 2023] You begin casting Cancel Magic.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:32 2023] Greater plaguebone feels a bit dispelled.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:35 2023] Auto attack on.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:35 2023] Your target is too far away, get closer!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:35 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:35 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 94 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:35 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:35 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 61 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:35 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:35 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but greater plaguebone ripostes!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:37 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 65 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:37 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 81 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:37 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but greater plaguebone ripostes!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:38 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:39 2023] Dunkheals tells you, 'all yours'
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:40 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:40 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 95 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:40 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:40 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:42 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 100 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:42 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 77 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:42 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:42 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 81 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:43 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to kick YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:44 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 62 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:45 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:46 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:47 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:48 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 53 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:48 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:49 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:50 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 89 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:51 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to kick YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:52 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:52 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:53 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:53 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but greater plaguebone dodges!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:54 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:55 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:57 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 63 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:57 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:57 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:59 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to bash YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:59 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:04:59 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:01 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:01 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but greater plaguebone parries!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:01 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 90 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:02 2023] You are no longer encumbered.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:03 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 80 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:04 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 72 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:04 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:06 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 98 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:06 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:06 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:06 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to kick YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:08 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 65 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:08 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:08 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:10 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 55 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:10 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:11 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:12 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 65 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:12 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:13 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:13 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:13 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 27 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:14 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to kick YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:14 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:14 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:16 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:16 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 66 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:16 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 30 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:18 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:19 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:19 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:20 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:21 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:21 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:22 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to bash YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:23 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:23 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 90 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:23 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 61 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:23 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but greater plaguebone dodges!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:25 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:25 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 76 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:27 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 68 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:27 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 16 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:27 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:27 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:29 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:30 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:30 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 99 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:30 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:32 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 75 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:32 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 27 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:32 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:34 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:34 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 72 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:35 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:35 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:36 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 38 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:36 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 35 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:37 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:37 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:38 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but greater plaguebone dodges!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:38 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to kick YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:38 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:39 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:40 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 104 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:40 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:42 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:42 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 67 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:42 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:44 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 54 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:44 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 45 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:45 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 69 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:45 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 58 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:45 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:46 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:47 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:47 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:49 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 36 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:49 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:49 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 89 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:51 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 54 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:51 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 65 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:51 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 89 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:53 2023] Greater plaguebone kicks YOU for 26 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:53 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:54 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 81 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:56 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:56 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:56 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:58 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:58 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 40 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:58 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:05:58 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:00 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:00 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 113 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:01 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:01 2023] Greater plaguebone bashes YOU for 25 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:02 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 38 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:02 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but greater plaguebone parries!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:03 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 58 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:03 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:04 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 118 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:05 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:06 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:06 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 66 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:08 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:08 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:09 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:09 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but greater plaguebone ripostes!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:09 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:09 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:10 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 81 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:10 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but YOU dodge!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:11 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 106 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:13 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 22 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:13 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 73 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:13 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:15 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:15 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:15 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:17 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to kick YOU, but YOU parry!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:17 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 68 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:17 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:17 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 85 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:17 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:19 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 36 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:20 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:20 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:22 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 65 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:22 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 67 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:22 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:24 2023] You try to slash greater plaguebone, but miss!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:24 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 80 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:24 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but YOU riposte!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:25 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to bash YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:26 2023] You begin casting Enstill.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:27 2023] Greater plaguebone tries to hit YOU, but misses!
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:28 2023] Greater plaguebone's feet adhere to the ground.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:28 2023] You slash greater plaguebone for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:29 2023] Auto attack off.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:29 2023] Greater plaguebone hits YOU for 81 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:33 2023] It will take you about 30 seconds to prepare your camp.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:37 2023] It will take about 25 more seconds to prepare your camp.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:42 2023] It will take about 20 more seconds to prepare your camp.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:47 2023] It will take about 15 more seconds to prepare your camp.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:52 2023] It will take about 10 more seconds to prepare your camp.
[Wed Aug 09 15:06:57 2023] It will take about 5 more seconds to prepare your camp.
[Wed Aug 09 15:07:21 2023] Welcome to EverQuest!
[Wed Aug 09 15:07:21 2023] You have entered Dreadlands.
[Wed Aug 09 15:07:21 2023] MESSAGE OF THE DAY: Welcome to Project 1999: Blue! Please take the time to visit our forums and review the Play-Nice-Policy. Friendly reminder that Real Money Trading (RMT) including account, platinum or item buying/selling will result in a permanent ban. Dual boxing multiple characters at one time will also result in a ban.
[Wed Aug 09 15:07:21 2023] GUILD MOTD: Sociopath - Ask Acidwiz and or Valick about joining Gravity!!! The non-Vanquish new guild with mostly old AG members

The 7 fights (not enough) done at this str level had the following DPS per fight

34-28-(the posted log)-28-27-26-28-32

Anyways yes the darkmetal falchion:
-on a 160str half elf paladin averaged a whopping 29dps
-on a 140str half elf paladin averaged a whopping 25dps

The takeaway from this is simply that GamParse is A-OK for use.

This entire series of fights is insufficient for the reasons discussed specifically here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633598&postcount=168

The biggest issue is the small sample size. There were only ~360 hits at 160 str and ~410 hits at 140 str

Troxx

08-10-2023, 05:53 PM

Having 110ish more mana means you have 1-2 extra FDs, which can save your life.

If there's a high likelihood you could die - why on earth would you let your mana get that low without first casting FD? A SK who needs a total mana pool 110 larger in order to save your their life with FD is playing very unintelligently.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 06:05 PM

Thank you for posting some logs for once! You are slowly improving your ability to provide real data that is verifiable. All of your silly nonsense about what you believe my opinions to be on Gameparse are irrelevant. I simply prefer to get the real data so there is no possibility of error from a program I cannot verify to be bug free. I believe in the integrity of the data.

Armed with this improvement, you should do some parses that you consider to be valid and post the logs. If you want to post the Gameparse as well, that is fine, but the logs are more important. Post the logs if you have to pick one. Then we can discuss the data.

My only complaint is you posted one parse. Please post them all next time.

So far https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211 my testing shows +20 STR provides a 1.5 DPS improvement over 40 minutes of continuous autoattacking, using both a 1h weapon and a 2h weapon with similar ratios.

If there's a high likelihood you could die - why on earth would you let your mana get that low without first casting FD? A SK who needs a total mana pool 110 larger in order to save your their life with FD is playing very unintelligently.

The same argument can be applied to the other starting stats.

1. Why would you let your HP get to 100 or less? (STA)
2. Why do you think 1 DPS is going to significantly increase your kills per hour (STR)?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633162&postcount=60
TLDR version for OP: stats don’t actually matter. Dump it all into wisdom and you’ll still be fine.

You already agree that starting stats don't really matter. You understand starting stats are small bonuses. I am not sure why you think the "why do you need 100 mana/hp?" question is helping your argument.

If starting stats don't really matter, then the only logical choice is to put your points into the stat that is the hardest to cap (INT). This is because the small bonus you get from said starting stats will apply to your character for the longest period of time across your character's career.

Troxx

08-10-2023, 07:47 PM

Thank you for posting some logs for once!

Negative.

I have always posted parses. You have simply never trusted them because the raw logs and "video evidence" you demand wasn't provided. I don't video any shit for myself or anyone and I won't start because one obtuse internet persona demands it. You haven't trusted a parse program that is trustworthy ... because accepting raw data compiled by a mathematically correct program is somehow inferior to the interpretations of an imperfect human. None of us are perfect.

Why would I lie lol? To win an argument with an autistic fuckwit on an intrawebz forum?

Give me a break...

Troxx

08-10-2023, 07:52 PM

You already agree that starting stats don't really matter. You understand starting stats are small bonuses. I am not sure why you think the "why do you need 100 mana/hp?" question is helping your argument.

The point is you need neither. The OP was asking what to do. He's a low str Iksar SK. He will get more mileage out of 20 str than 20int.

Your fatally flawed parses showed a whopping (ie its not anywhere close to insignificant) 4.3% dmg improvement with 20 str on a level 5 turtle when you are level 60. 4.3% more full time, static, always there dps is way beyond what any theorycrafted and cherry picked random "what if" scenario implying 20 more intelligence is better could ever hope or dream to accomplish.

Sorry you suck at abstract thought, math, basic reasoning and ... well ... most shit.

Hope that helps.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-10-2023, 07:56 PM

Negative.

I have always posted parses. You have simply never trusted them because the raw logs and "video evidence" you demand wasn't provided. I don't video any shit for myself or anyone and I won't start because one obtuse internet persona demands it.

Why would I lie lol?

Very rarely do you post any evidence. The majority of your last few hundred posts have been silly gifs and nonsense.

I hope you continue posting evidence. You are making progress by posting that log!

I am not calling you a liar. I simply understand that computer programs can have bugs in them, and human error can occur when using said computer programs.

When you post the logs, you give everybody the same data set. They can use whichever parser they want, and we can check to see if someone did the parse wrong. Making a mistake on the parse does not mean someone did it intentionally. But if the data is wrong, we need to know.

You should know how this works as a doctor. My video evidence is much more concrete than you simply posting summary text. My videos show you exactly what I am doing, and how I am doing it. It also allows you to cross reference the logs I provide, to make sure they have not been tampered with. You can use the logs I provide to do you own parsing, in case you think I got something incorrect.

Everybody wins when you post the logs. It's even better when you post videos, because we will have a better understanding of how the logs were generated.

Your fatally flawed parses showed a whopping (ie its not anywhere close to insignificant) 4.3% dmg improvement with 20 str on a level 5 turtle when you are level 60. 4.3% more full time, static, always there dps is way beyond what any theorycrafted and cherry picked random "what if" scenario implying 20 more intelligence is better could ever hope or dream to accomplish.
.

As usual, you simply claim all evidence is invalid, because it doesn't support your opinion lol. This is just sad. Please get better at admitting you are wrong, or provide evidence that shows why you think my evidence is invalid.

You still haven't show why you think the DPS increase is a percentage instead of a raw number, and you still haven't actually shown how many additional kills per hour this small DPS bonus would net you. I'll help you out. If the DPS improvement is 1, then you will get 3600 damage per hour, assuming you autoattack non-stop. Realistically you are going to be getting much less than that, because you are going to be taking breaks, pulling, etc. You are probably getting 1-2 additional kills per hour, maybe. This is not going to improve your leveling process enough to sacrifice your starting stats in the long term. INT is the better choice.

Troxx

08-10-2023, 07:56 PM

Jimjam

08-10-2023, 10:20 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 10:22 AM

Rip thanks for posting your Magelo, thats a well geared toon with a nice balance of stats rather than one which just spams one particular philosophy. It’s really interesting to see how everything is just scraping cap with buffs.

I think it does indicate the caution of following minmax advice when not using the supposed min max race option (dump int as str/sta cap easily).

I think most would agree that when doing self found or very lightly twinked (ie just a weapon and haste) characters for the sake of levelling up another alt rather than having a 60 toon to play str is by far the best option. However you’ve managed to demonstrate that for twink or bis putting points into melee stats when not playing a giant race isn’t necessarily going to be quite so wasteful as the community previously believed.

Statistically speaking STR and STA are easier to cap with BiS gear in Velious. If you don't believe me, you can simply look at https://wiki.project1999.com/Category:Shadow_Knight_Equipment and check the stat distributions across the items. You can see my example Magelo here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan . STR is also easy to cap with buffs, long before full BiS gear, as you can get +235 STR from Avatar + Focus of Spirit + Maniacal Strength.

Ripqozko's Magelo (which is awesome btw) simply shows what I assume everybody already knows:

There are thousands of possible equipment combinations for each class.

You can find builds that cap any stat long before full BiS gear. That doesn't prove anything, especially since many of those builds would be considered to be objectively bad for the class using them. It doesn't change the statistical distribution of stats on gear. P99 is a locked server, so we are not going to get new items that can change the statistical distributions.

As far as I am aware, most players do not pre-plan out which BiS (or near BiS) gear they are going to get. This happens organically. That means when creating a new character, you want to put your points into the statistically hardest stat to cap for a Shadowknight, which is INT. This gives you the highest chance of maximizing your starting stats.

If you DO pre-plan the gear for your character, then put your starting stats into whichever stats will achieve your goals with the pre-planned gear. I don't believe OP is going to be doing this, so it doesn't apply in this case.

Ripqozko

08-11-2023, 11:14 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 11:22 AM

Hey thanks for taking the time to look and yes that was my point. If I had gone int I’d be even more sta starved. Will I get it eventually? Sure but my choice for sta on a DE isn’t a waste. I appreciate you noticing.

I don't think anybody is saying it's a waste. Perhaps this is why people are getting defensive? They think people are attacking their starting stat choices?

Unless you dump your points into WIS, you will get some benefit from STR, STA, DEX, AGI, CHA, or INT. It won't be a waste.

OP should know statistically which starting stat is best, and that is INT based on all the available data thus far. The exception to this is an SSF character, or your first character on a fresh server. STR is going to be better in those cases. OP seems willing to twink their character, so this doesn't apply.

Nobody is forcing OP to pick INT, nor would I call their decision a waste if they went with STR.

Crede

08-11-2023, 11:25 AM

Statistically speaking STR and STA are easier to cap with BiS gear in Velious. If you don't believe me, you can simply look at https://wiki.project1999.com/Category:Shadow_Knight_Equipment and check the stat distributions across the items. You can see my example Magelo here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan . STR is also easy to cap with buffs, long before full BiS gear, as you can get +235 STR from Avatar + Focus of Spirit + Maniacal Strength.

Ripqozko's Magelo (which is awesome btw) simply shows what I assume everybody already knows:

There are thousands of possible equipment combinations for each class.

You can find builds that cap any stat long before full BiS gear. That doesn't prove anything, especially since many of those builds would be considered to be objectively bad for the class using them. It doesn't change the statistical distribution of stats on gear. P99 is a locked server, so we are not going to get new items that can change the statistical distributions.

As far as I am aware, most players do not pre-plan out which BiS (or near BiS) gear they are going to get. This happens organically. That means when creating a new character, you want to put your points into the statistically hardest stat to cap for a Shadowknight, which is INT. This gives you the highest chance of maximizing your starting stats.

If you DO pre-plan the gear for your character, then put your starting stats into whichever stats will achieve your goals with the pre-planned gear. I don't believe OP is going to be doing this, so it doesn't apply in this case.

You can't simultaneously claim that players do not plan out their character while at the same time suggesting that they pick a stat that lends itself to the greatest benefit in the absolute end game planning(INT) which likely over 99% of SKs will never get to due to the sheer amount of time/dedication/difficulty involved.

Ripq's SK is geared better than probably 90% of sks, and he still can't even cap STA.

This isn't a tell me the min/max stat thread for sks. This is an iksar sk just starting out curious about their different options. You are factually foregoing other various benefits by focusing on INT until the absolute end of the game which odds are you will never hit anyway.

I think INT is a clear choice for ogres/trolls. For the rest of the SK races, I think STR or STA are valid cases. There's really no wrong answer here, since we do not know ultimately what OPs final goals are, we can only offer our advice and let them choose what is best for their particular situation. It's not helpful to anyone, including OP, by consistently trying to force your INT preference on this thread.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 11:31 AM

You can't simultaneously claim that players do not plan out their character while at the same time suggesting that they pick a stat that lends itself to the greatest benefit in the absolute end game planning(INT) which likely over 99% of SKs will never get to due to the sheer amount of time/dedication/difficulty involved.

Ripq's SK is geared better than probably 90% of sks, and he still can't even cap STA.

I can say both. I am willing to bet most people do not build a Magelo first and set up their stats based on the results of the Magelo. They acquire gear organically, which may or may not cap a certain stat. Statistically speaking INT is the hardest stat to cap for an SK, so you have the lowest probability of capping that stat with class relevant gear. It really isn't more difficult than that.

This isn't a tell me the min/max stat thread for sks. This is an iksar sk just starting out curious about their different options. You are factually foregoing other various benefits by focusing on INT until the absolute end of the game which odds are you will never hit anyway.

Where did OP say he didn't want the min/max option? You do not get to put words in OP's mouth to try and win the debate, or stifle other posters.

I think INT is a clear choice for ogres/trolls. For the rest of the SK races, I think STR or STA are valid cases. There's really no wrong answer here, since we do not know ultimate what OPs final goals are, we can only offer our advice and let them choose what is best for their particular situation. It's not helpful to anyone, including OP, by consistently trying to force your INT preference on this thread.

Not everything is an opinion or preference. I am not saying INT is the best stat due to preference. There is an objectively best and worst stat based on the facts and statistics. INT is the best starting stat in most cases. That doesn't mean OP will be wrong if he chooses to not pick INT. We all agree starting stats are not going to significantly affect OP's experience.

I am not sure why people get so offended at the facts of the game. It is a very strange occurrence on these forums.

Toxigen

08-11-2023, 12:48 PM

Troxx is correct here. Let it die, DSM.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 12:54 PM

Troxx is correct here. Let it die, DSM.

I am sorry, but denying facts is not the correct approach here. You simply muddy the waters, and make it impossible for people to find the correct answers.

INT is the best starting stat for an SK unless you are making a self found character, or it is your first character on a server.

To counter the idea that STR is the best starting stat, I have provided multiple pieces of evidence:

I have provided evidence showing the statistical probabilities of stats on gear for SK's, an example of this can be found here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:EruditeSKMan. This shows that STR and STA are more common on Velious BiS gear. You will cap STR and STA, while not capping INT. This is on an Erudite, who has the highest INT in the game for SK's.

I have shown an Iksar SK can get a large amount of STR in easily acquired gear, this can be found here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK. This shows that you can get enough STR to deal good damage and carry around lots of loot without having to raid.

I have provided in-game evidence showing an example of how much DPS +20 STR will give you, that can be found here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633715&postcount=211. This shows a small DPS increase from +20 STR, which means you probably aren't going to be getting a significant boost to kills per hour while leveling.

I have shown that you can get +235 STR with https://wiki.project1999.com/Avatar + https://wiki.project1999.com/Focus_of_Spirit + https://wiki.project1999.com/Maniacal_Strength. This means you can cap STR long before full BiS gear in a number of buff combinations.

I am 100% open to admitting I am wrong if people can provide evidence that rebuts mine.

However, you do not simply get to say "I am right, you are wrong, and I need no evidence". That isn't helpful, and it confuses people.

Games are built on rules and math. There are objective answers to questions like this. So far, the evidence points to INT being the best starting stat. This has more credibility than a mere preference or opinion, as it is backed up by evidence.

Jimjam

08-11-2023, 01:07 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 01:18 PM

I’m gonna take the real world evidence of a very well geared 60 non-giant sk that actually exists and gets played over untested hypothetical builds. Sorry.

Dsm, I also note your sk requires PE to cap sta?

You seem to have selected unbuffed str over int, as it is far over what is needed to cap with buffs. This demonstrates acknowledgement of the value of unbuffed str and that even you don’t take for granted ms/fos. Especially as sk can cast major shielding instead to pump ac/mr.

The issue with your logic here is you are completely missing how statistics work.

Nobody in this thread has denied that you can cap one stat over another with certain combinations of gear. I do not deny it either.

The only thing that matters is the statistical probability of capping a stat. This is because most players acquire gear organically. You don't know what gear you are going to end up with when you first start your character. Just because a probability is low, it doesn't mean you can't have it occur. INT is the hardest stat to cap statistically speaking using relevant SK gear, and all the data is available on the wiki to show this is the case.

Saying "it can happen" is like telling someone they will win the lottery. It is possible, but statistically unlikely. This is why you do not advise someone to spend there whole life savings on lottery tickets.

As for buffs, you can easily show that you cannot get +235 INT, which means it is also harder to cap in that scenario.

You are incorrect about your assessment of my SK's stats. My SK has a lot more STR because tank gear tends to have STR on it. Trolls also have higher starting STR. My Magelo supports my position that relevant SK gear is more likely to have STR on it, instead of INT. I also put my starting stats into INT.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 01:35 PM

My prediction is that DSM will now revert to his well known habits of quoting himself and his previous posts and napkin math to somehow "prove" that he is right without directly addressing any discussion. It is his modus operandi when backed into a corner.

Wait for it ...

He WILL do it ...

*cough*

I summed up my thoughts here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633980&postcount=278

I don’t think I need to type it again.

We are basically at an impasse. The only active participant in this thread who agrees with DSM is DSM.

It’s time to let it die.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 01:38 PM

*cough*

I summed up my thoughts here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633980&postcount=278

I don’t think I need to type it again.

We are basically at an impasse. The only active participant in this thread who agrees with DSM is DSM.

It’s time to let it die.

We are not at an impasse.

I have provided a lot more data than you have to back up my position: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

Please stop acting like a child and proclaiming victory for no valid reason.

I will be happy to admit I am wrong if you can provide something other than silly gifs. The data you have provided thus far is invalid by your own admission.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 01:54 PM

We are not at an impasse.

im·passe
/ˈimˌpas,imˈpas/
noun
a situation in which no progress is possible, especially because of disagreement; a deadlock.

You disagree with everyone else and aren’t going to change your mind. Everyone else disagrees with you. In 31 pages you have convinced precisely zero people. I don’t think that’s gonna change.

So yea, we are at the literal definition of an impasse.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PotableLeafyAfricanpiedkingfisher-size_restricted.gif

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 02:00 PM

im·passe
/ˈimˌpas,imˈpas/
noun
a situation in which no progress is possible, especially because of disagreement; a deadlock.

You disagree with everyone else and aren’t going to change your mind. Everyone else disagrees with you. In 31 pages you have convinced precisely zero people. I don’t think that’s gonna change.

So yea, we are at the literal definition of an impasse.

Proclaiming something as an impasse does not mean it is an impasse. Your assumptions are meaningless.

Using an argumentum ad populum fallacy is not a valid method of debate.

Making false claims about who agrees with who is irrelevant.

Posting gifs is not evidence that supports your position.

You are losing this debate, we are not at an impasse. You will continue to lose until you can actually respond to the evidence I have provided here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

bcbrown

08-11-2023, 02:05 PM

Proclaiming something as an impasse does not mean it is an impasse.

Perhaps we're at an impasse over whether or not it's an impasse.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 02:08 PM

Perhaps we're at an impasse over whether or not it's an impasse.

https://i.gifer.com/3Hxf.gif

Ripqozko

08-11-2023, 02:12 PM

Impassception

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 02:16 PM

Perhaps we're at an impasse over whether or not it's an impasse.

Lol perhaps.

Troxx is using the word "impasse" to imply we are tied, or he is winning. He really doesn't like to admit he may be wrong, especially in a debate with me.

If he wants to declare that he will never agree with me, we can stop replying to each other. We will be at an impasse in that regard.

This doesn't mean he is correct, or everybody disagrees with me. Thus far, my position https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300 is much stronger. That doesn't mean I cannot be proven wrong. I sincerely hope someone actually brings some good evidence to back up their positions!

Troxx

08-11-2023, 02:24 PM

Troxx is using the word "impasse" to imply we are tied, or he is winning. He really doesn't like to admit he may be wrong, especially in a debate with

Read the definition again ….

im·passe
/ˈimˌpas,imˈpas/
noun
a situation in which no progress is possible, especially because of disagreement; a deadlock

https://media.tenor.com/qB9CpHrTlfMAAAAC/house-md-dr-house.gif

rjw513

08-11-2023, 02:27 PM

Why does it have to be a winning / losing scenario? Aren’t you claiming to just want to help OP make a judgment?? I think you got a problem bud

Troxx

08-11-2023, 02:29 PM

Why does it have to be a winning / losing scenario? Aren’t you claiming to just want to help OP make a judgment?? I think you got a problem bud

https://media.tenor.com/1RSFmdpkjiYAAAAC/this.gif

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 02:30 PM

Read the definition again ….

im·passe
/ˈimˌpas,imˈpas/
noun
a situation in which no progress is possible, especially because of disagreement; a deadlock

I understand the definition just fine. If you had simply said "I will never agree with you, therefore we are at an impasse", I wouldn't have an issue with that.

However, it is clear you are attempting to include all of the posters and readers of this thread into the same impasse, without actually getting their input. It is a clever slight of hand to make your argumentum ad populum seem more credible.

If this was not your intent, please clarify your post and tell me that you are personally at an impasse with me, and this impasse does not include anyone else. I will be happy to admit I was wrong about your post if that was the case.

This means that you simply agree to disagree, not that you have proven your case beyond doubt.

Why does it have to be a winning / losing scenario? Aren’t you claiming to just want to help OP make a judgment?? I think you got a problem bud

OP can only make the correct judgement if they have the correct facts. When all the facts are available, OP can feel comfortable picking whichever stat they want. They will know exactly what they are gaining, and what they are losing.

There is a disagreement on the facts, which means evidence must be provided to show why the facts are correct or incorrect. Thus far, posters opposed to my position have provided very little to back up their positions.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 02:40 PM

However, it is clear you are attempting to include all of the posters and readers of this thread into the same impasse, without actually getting their input.

Dear DSM,

Everyone in this thread has been giving you continuous feedback. It would be awesome if it were possible to filter OUT a poster when reading a thread. Not with the intent to silence anyone, but so that you could filter yourself out temporarily and just read all the posts in between. You have been arguing with *literally* everyone.

We have been giving you continuous feedback all along.

Hope that helps.

Love,

Troxx

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 02:44 PM

Dear DSM,

Everyone in this thread has been giving you continuous feedback. It would be awesome if it were possible to filter OUT a poster when reading a thread. Not with the intent to silence anyone, but so that you could filter yourself out temporarily and just read all the posts in between. You have been arguing with *literally* everyone.

We have been giving you continuous feedback all along.

Hope that helps.

Love,

Troxx

You do not speak for every poster in this thread. Nor do you speak for every reader of this thread who has not posted.

Your attempts at an argumentum ad populum are not helping your position. Multiple people disagreeing with someone is not evidence that they are incorrect.

Counter my evidence https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300 or simply agree to disagree on a personal level.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 02:57 PM

You do not speak for every poster in this thread.

They spoke for themselves. Go back to page one and casually read everyone else’s posts (skip mine and yours).

A pattern quickly emerges.

Toxigen

08-11-2023, 02:57 PM

In about an hour I'm gonna be kickin back with a casamigos margarita.

Wanna know what I won't be doing? Looking at this thread.

Sperg on, boys.

bcbrown

08-11-2023, 02:58 PM

However, it is clear you are attempting to include all of the posters and readers of this thread into the same impasse, without actually getting their input. It is a clever slight of hand to make your argumentum ad populum seem more credible.

Personally, I think what he said was reasonable and accurate. He's right in that no one in this thread has voiced support for your position, as far as I can tell, and that furthermore no one has been convinced to change their position by the strength of your arguments. I'm probably the person how has been most swayed by your arguments, as your Magelo changed my mind from "lol obviously strength" to "strength unless: you have access to really good gear to start with, plus you're more concerned with raiding than messing about while leveling and doing Greenmist quest, plus once you do get BiS gear, you have the personality type to feel enough regret over initial point allocation that it hampers your enjoyment of playing the character."

It's also obvious to me that no one in this thread will sway you from your position, and that you have laid out your argument in sufficient detail that anyone who could be persuaded, will have already been persuaded, such that additional back-and-forth is likely to be irrelevant. To me, that sounds like an impasse.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 03:02 PM

They spoke for themselves. Go back to page one and casually read everyone else’s posts (skip mine and yours).

A pattern quickly emerges.

Did you ask all of the people who have been reading, and not posting? I think not.

There is a clear pattern, I agree. You have hundreds of posts in your history of silly gifs and other troll behaviors. I am not sure why you think your disagreement looks credible. The same goes for other posters like Toxigen, Crede, and Ripqozko.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to stop these behaviors. You are in the worst of both worlds right now. You aren't funny enough to be an entertaining troll, like Chortles, and you troll too often to be taken seriously. People simply don't know when you want to troll, and when you want to be serious.

Toxigen

08-11-2023, 03:12 PM

idk man i laughed a bit

troxx is good elf peepul

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 03:14 PM

idk man i laughed a bit

troxx is good elf peepul

I am sure Troxx is good people. I honestly never see forum toxicity translate to in-game toxicity. I'll gladly play P99 with him any time. I'll gladly play P99 with you any time Toxigen.

I have no problem with entertainment, but please leave that in RnF. This is a forum that is discussing the mechanics of the game. Trolling here is simply confusing readers who don't know the forum drama very well.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 03:23 PM

In about an hour I'm gonna be kickin back with a casamigos margarita.

Wanna know what I won't be doing? Looking at this thread.

Sperg on, boys.

I’m jealous. It’s a slow day a work and this is the only entertainment I have.

I’m reading back through the thread out of boredom. This post from page 8 really stands out.

But yes, I agree (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633162&postcount=60) with Troxx. Not because of who he is or any authority he has, but because the content of what he says makes sense to me. I find his argument to be reasonable and convincing. I find your argument to be unconvincing. OP mentions "I will have access to all or most of group content gear at level 1"; if you want to convince me, show an Iksar SK magelo with 180-200 strength at that level of gear. Not raid BIS, but "all or most of group content gear". (I'm also curious what the OP would find convincing)

But I think the larger, more fundamental point I'd like to make regards what I would characterize as your preoccupation with "evidence". You're constantly asking for evidence. You frequently mention that your motivation is to put information out there and let the audience make their own decisions. As someone who is far less experienced or knowledgeable than any of y'all, I believe I'm qualified to speak as a representative for the cohort of people you claim to be addressing. Your constant emphasis and demand for "evidence" makes you less credible.

Not all forms of disputes or arguments require evidence. If there is a factual dispute, then obviously evidence is pertinent. But this dispute, like most that you seem to find yourself in, is not factual. It's about which of several mutually exclusive options is better. And better is subjective. As far as I can see, there's three positions one can hold:

Intelligence is best, because the other relevant stats will be capped easier late-game, and more mana is always better.
Stamina is best, because an SK's main job is tanking, and it's important to cap stamina/HP as quickly as possible.
Strength is best, even though it might eventually be overcapped, because late game stats won't make much difference, whereas it will make a measureable difference in quality of life while leveling and uncapped.

Evidence has very little to do with the strength of the argument when everyone is in rough consensus as to the mechanics affected by each of these attributes. It's the quality of the reasoning that matters.

And so this is my unsolicited feedback for you: I find how you structure your arguments to be weak. When you say "no one will be convinced by what you say" to someone I find credible, it makes you less credible. When you demand evidence in a subjective dispute, it makes you less credible.

If I'm the sort of person you're trying to convince, I hope this feedback is helpful. If not, please feel free to disregard it. Either way, I hope you're having a great day.

Emphasis on him pointing out that “better is subjective” in the context of this thread. Unlike other situations where we wasted hundreds of pages with you trying to convince us shamans can dps as well as a mage in a fast paced high dps group with 2x charm pets (they can’t even come close), there is no factual *right* answer here. The game is easy regardless of where you put starting stats.

I would never put 20 int starting stats on an iksar sk
You would put those 20 points into intelligence

And that is ok.

Whether a 4.3% increase (again, using your numbers) and more carrying capacity is significant enough to offset the loss of a little mana?

That is also subjective.

You feel it isn’t.
I feel it is.

That’s Ok.

There is no winning or losing.
Opinions were shared.
Some people’s opinions might have changed, others not.
We established that yes GamPase is accurate

Nothing new is being said at this point. This spirited thread exists for anyone who cares to read it. The opinion of whoever has the last or most recent post doesn’t get bonus points in the eyes of the readers. If anything most may make it 10 pages in before getting bored and moving on or simply making up their mind and moving on.

Time to put Old Yeller out to pasture and let this thread die.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 03:30 PM

That is also subjective.

This is where we disagree. Video games are built on rules and math. There are objective truths in systems built on rules and math.

I do not think it is productive to simply claim everything is subjective. People use this as a tactic to dismiss factual evidence. That is what it feels like you are doing on a regular basis. This is especially true when you have a habit of dismissing evidence out of hand. I am not trying to be mean, I am simply pointing out this behavior.

I will be happy to admit I am wrong if you can show evidence that counters what I have provided here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

We all agree that starting stats will not significantly impact OP, regardless of what they choose. I simply want to ensure OP has the best information possible, so they can confidently make the choice that feels right for them.

Crede

08-11-2023, 04:31 PM

This is where we disagree. Video games are built on rules and math. There are objective truths in systems built on rules and math.

I do not think it is productive to simply claim everything is subjective. People use this as a tactic to dismiss factual evidence. That is what it feels like you are doing on a regular basis. This is especially true when you have a habit of dismissing evidence out of hand. I am not trying to be mean, I am simply pointing out this behavior.

I will be happy to admit I am wrong if you can show evidence that counters what I have provided here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

We all agree that starting stats will not significantly impact OP, regardless of what they choose. I simply want to ensure OP has the best information possible, so they can confidently make the choice that feels right for them.

This is precisely why nobody really takes you seriously. Just because this game is built on rules and logic doesn’t mean every application of the game has an objective truth.

Your argument about INT is min/max in nature. The vast majority of players never get to end game stats. So you’re effectively giving advice that will apply to almost nobody. Each stat has its own application. There is no correct answer, unless this is a min/max thread, then yes the answer is INT. OP hasn’t asked for a min/max debate, you’ve just turned it into one.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 04:52 PM

This is precisely why nobody really takes you seriously. Just because this game is built on rules and logic doesn’t mean every application of the game has an objective truth.

You are incorrect here. The rules and math of the game allow you to statistically determine things like best stats.

It is easy to prove this. Just take a look at video game metas. In a game like League of Legends, there are objectively better or worse champions. This is because people can run the numbers and determine which champions have a statistical advantage, after accounting for player skill, latency, etc. Does this mean a lower tier champion cannot compete? No, but you will be at a disadvantage.

The reality is yourself and other posters simply do not understand this concept well enough. This is why you simply keep insisting it is subjective.

Sizar

08-11-2023, 05:02 PM

OP can only make the correct judgement if they have the correct facts.

After recently going 1-60 on a SK, I feel like the facts are this.....while having 20 more INT would be good I guess, and I may get more mileage out of it now that I am mediocre geared and raiding, from level 1-60 , 20 more INT would have meant NOTHING to me. The strength let me do more dps, which meant less downtime. I solo'd about 98% from 1-60.

OP just go with Str and be done with it. I have followed Troxx's posts for a while now when looking for info on monk DPS and whatnot and his numbers are solid. DSM seems like the dude who always needs to get in the last word, even if he is basically wrong, but not completely wrong.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 05:19 PM

After recently going 1-60 on a SK, I feel like the facts are this.....while having 20 more INT would be good I guess, and I may get more mileage out of it now that I am mediocre geared and raiding, from level 1-60 , 20 more INT would have meant NOTHING to me. The strength let me do more dps, which meant less downtime. I solo'd about 98% from 1-60.

I have leveled an Iksar Monk recently from levels 1-52, and I can tell you that I never needed the +20 STR. He had 140STR or less for the entire leveling process. I looted everything, leveled quickly, and didn't have Tink Bags. I also soloed the majority of the time. I can counter your anecdotal story with my own. The difference is I actually have evidence to back up my position with regards to this thread, while you do not. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300. Thus far, I have shown that +20 STR is giving you about 1.5 extra DPS. You have no grounds to claim that the STR gave you enough DPS to reduce your downtime in any meaningful way.

OP just go with Str and be done with it. I have followed Troxx's posts for a while now when looking for info on monk DPS and whatnot and his numbers are solid. DSM seems like the dude who always needs to get in the last word, even if he is basically wrong, but not completely wrong.

Troxx hasn't provided any numbers in this thread, so I am not sure why you think that anecdote is relevant. He has deemed his own parses to be invalid. You haven't done anything to discount my numbers either.

Your opinions on me are irrelevant and incorrect. It is quite telling when you have to resort to insults. You have nothing to support your position, and you are hoping that discrediting others will lift yourself up.

bcbrown

08-11-2023, 05:44 PM

It is easy to prove this. Just take a look at video game metas. In a game like League of Legends, there are objectively better or worse champions. This is because people can run the numbers and determine which champions have a statistical advantage, after accounting for player skill, latency, etc. Does this mean a lower tier champion cannot compete? No, but you will be at a disadvantage.

The reality is yourself and other posters simply do not understand this concept well enough. This is why you simply keep insisting it is subjective.

I'm aware you have some sort of professional experience in the games industry, and I'm sure you have far more experience than I do with things like adjusting game mechanics to guide the meta towards whatever you're attempting to accomplish.

But this concept you're talking about is well within my bailiwick. I've built epsilon-greedy multi-armed bandits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit) for online commerce. I've worked on systems that attempt to correct for the "banana problem (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Integrating-Knowledge-based-and-Recommender-Systems-Burke/e3eaa4f029d6280d90bc4fb5ac6f282bf8d38899?p2df)" in collaborative recommendation systems. I've worked through the mathematics of recursive descent, and understand mechanics of and motivation for using something like simulated annealing to avoid local optima. So yes, I'm explicitly arguing from authority here.

The difference between what you're talking about with LoL and what we're talking about with EQ SK attribute starting points is that the cost function is well defined in your LoL example, but there is no well defined cost function here, which is exactly what I mean when I say "best is subjective".

Min-maxing or formal optimization is about using a cost function across some domain of parameters, where you try to choose parameters that minimize the cost function. With LoL, that cost function would be loss percentage, modified by something like an Elo rating system to account for opponent player strength. The parameters would be something like team champion choices, opponent champion choices, map; not really sure because I've never played LoL.

What's the cost function in EQ? I genuinely can't think of any formal cost functions that could apply. The game content is too easy; that's why we all agree that starting point allocations have minimal impact. There's things like solo artist challenges or low-man raids, but that's only relevant within those subsets of the larger game content.

So when I say that the best is subjective, what I mean is that there's no universally applicable cost function. I mostly enjoy leveling minimally-twinked characters through pickup groups, so my cost function is going to overweight attributes like undergeared DPS, carrying capacity, and so on. You seem to mostly enjoy end-game soloing and maybe raiding, so you're going to underweight those attributes.

If we don't share a cost function, we won't agree on "best".

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 05:55 PM

The game content is too easy; that's why we all agree that starting point allocations have minimal impact. There's things like solo artist challenges or low-man raids, but that's only relevant within those subsets of the larger game content.

This is correct. That is why it is best to put your starting stats into the statistically best option, because it isn't going to matter much anyway. If you agree that we can statistically discover which champions are better or worse in LoL, you will agree the same can be done in EQ. There is nothing special about EQ's code and equations that make it impossible to apply statistics to things like starting stats.

I think the problem is people have an inflated concept of what "best" means. I think they assume it means "so much better you will regret everything else". I am not saying that. INT is simply the best choice in a set of options that are ultimately not going to impact your character in a significant way. This is backed up by statistical evidence.

There is nothing wrong with saying:

1. INT is the best choice statistically.
2. You can pick any other stat, and you will not have noticeable issues with your character.
3. Other stats have benefits, which are as follows...

The best solution is to give people the facts, and trust them to make the right decisions. I see no benefit in basically saying "everything is subjective, therefore it doesn't matter". Not only is this a false statement, but it hurts the players who enjoy min/maxing. Players who do not enjoy min/maxing will not be hurt by the facts. It is a win/win to supply the best information possible.

bcbrown

08-11-2023, 06:01 PM

There is nothing special about EQ's code and equations that make it impossible to apply statistics to things like starting stats.

What's your cost function?

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 06:08 PM

What's your cost function?

I have mentioned it many times.

If we agree that starting stats will not affect your character in a meaningful way, then the benefits of each individual stat are deemed to be outside the scope of our consideration for this conversation. It doesn't really matter if you get +1 DPS, +100 HP, or +200 MP.

Therefore, the only real consideration left is the statistical probability that you will cap the stat. This is because a capped stat provides zero value.

If you take a look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK equipment, you will see STA and STR appear with higher frequency. INT appears less often. In addition to this, the amount of STR that can be applied to a character via buffs is also much greater than INT.

Therefore, INT is the statistically best choice.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 06:10 PM

I'm aware you have some sort of professional experience in the games industry, and I'm sure you have far more experience than I do with things like adjusting game mechanics to guide the meta towards whatever you're attempting to accomplish.

But this concept you're talking about is well within my bailiwick. I've built epsilon-greedy multi-armed bandits (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-armed_bandit) for online commerce. I've worked on systems that attempt to correct for the "banana problem (https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Integrating-Knowledge-based-and-Recommender-Systems-Burke/e3eaa4f029d6280d90bc4fb5ac6f282bf8d38899?p2df)" in collaborative recommendation systems. I've worked through the mathematics of recursive descent, and understand mechanics of and motivation for using something like simulated annealing to avoid local optima. So yes, I'm explicitly arguing from authority here.

The difference between what you're talking about with LoL and what we're talking about with EQ SK attribute starting points is that the cost function is well defined in your LoL example, but there is no well defined cost function here, which is exactly what I mean when I say "best is subjective".

Min-maxing or formal optimization is about using a cost function across some domain of parameters, where you try to choose parameters that minimize the cost function. With LoL, that cost function would be loss percentage, modified by something like an Elo rating system to account for opponent player strength. The parameters would be something like team champion choices, opponent champion choices, map; not really sure because I've never played LoL.

What's the cost function in EQ? I genuinely can't think of any formal cost functions that could apply. The game content is too easy; that's why we all agree that starting point allocations have minimal impact. There's things like solo artist challenges or low-man raids, but that's only relevant within those subsets of the larger game content.

So when I say that the best is subjective, what I mean is that there's no universally applicable cost function. I mostly enjoy leveling minimally-twinked characters through pickup groups, so my cost function is going to overweight attributes like undergeared DPS, carrying capacity, and so on. You seem to mostly enjoy end-game soloing and maybe raiding, so you're going to underweight those attributes.:p

If we don't share a cost function, we won't agree on "best".

https://media.tenor.com/x8JgbgUGgegAAAAM/math-zach-galifianakis.gif

I’m glad you said all that. I’m just sad I had such a hard time understanding it. Lots of big words and unfamiliar terminology I had to google.

#headache

:p

Troxx

08-11-2023, 06:15 PM

If you take a look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK equipment, you will see STA and STR appear with higher frequency. INT appears less often. In addition to this, the amount of STR that can be applied to a character via buffs is also much greater than INT.

Therefore, INT is the statistically best choice.

Following that logic, if you look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK you will see that wisdom appears even less often than intelligence.

Therefore, WIS is the statistically best choice.

Translation:

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExc2Zoa3I0bXRtdXhweWxkdWJiaDE4OG1 rNjhkczFvN210aTRoN2dpdCZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/AKaEfzaLlr0yI/giphy-downsized-large.gif

(I fully expect my sarcasm and straw-man to be lost on him - no I was not being serious)

Ripqozko

08-11-2023, 06:16 PM

I have mentioned it many times.

If we agree that starting stats will not affect your character in a meaningful way, then the benefits of each individual stat are deemed to be outside the scope of our consideration for this conversation. It doesn't really matter if you get +1 DPS, +100 HP, or +200 MP.

Therefore, the only real consideration left is the statistical probability that you will cap the stat. This is because a capped stat provides zero value.

If you take a look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK equipment, you will see STA and STR appear with higher frequency. INT appears less often. In addition to this, the amount of STR that can be applied to a character via buffs is also much greater than INT.

Therefore, INT is the statistically best choice.

I know statistically speaking your int sk will always be worse than mine. Hope that helps.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 06:18 PM

Following that logic, if you look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK you will see that wisdom appears even less often than intelligence.

Therefore, WIS is the statistically best choice.

This simply shows your lack of understanding of the game mechanics. WIS provides no value to an SK to begin with. You get zero value with 80 WIS, and zero value with 100 WIS. This is not true of INT, STA, or STR on an SK.

You really need to try harder with your trolling attempts. This is why I call you an unfunny troll. There is no link between INT and WIS on an SK. You cannot even troll correctly.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 06:21 PM

This simply shows your lack of understanding of the game mechanics. WIS provides no value to an SK to begin with. You get zero value with 80 WIS, and zero value with 100 WIS. This is not true of INT, STA, or STR on an SK.

No shit Sherlock.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 06:22 PM

No shit Sherlock.

Following that logic, if you look at the distribution of which stats appear on useful SK you will see that wisdom appears even less often than intelligence.

Therefore, WIS is the statistically best choice.

Can you explain why you thought this troll would be funny, or make sense? It just makes you look bad. I understand that wasn't your intent, but this happens often with your trolling attempts.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 06:52 PM

Yeah no, you are not the subject matter expert as what constitutes looking bad. If you need me to explain … it was a jab at the line of reasoning that simply because a stat is less prevalent on gear it means it is the most right choice. It’s not about which stat is the hardest to cap; it’s about which stat is going to actually do for you over the course of your character’s life. That’s the part of this (the discussion part) that you never got around to having. You’re stuck in your head very narrowly focusing on BiS arguments.

Ok so are we allowed to let this thread die now? You think I’m wrong. Everyone else thinks you are wrong. You think you’re somehow winning. Everyone else thinks your captaining the fail boat.

We are at an impasse.

Time to move along

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 07:06 PM

Yeah no, you are not the subject matter expert as what constitutes looking bad.

Ok so are we allowed to let this thread die now? You think I’m wrong. Everyone else thinks you are wrong. You think you’re somehow winning. Everyone else thinks your captaining the fail boat.

We are at an impasse.

Time to move along

We can let it die.

You simply need to stop proclaiming you are victorious due to an argumentum ad populum fallacy. Nothing you said in this post correct, other than you have a strong desire to reach an individual impasse with me. You are not speaking for anybody else in this thread.

I am currently winning the debate, as I have evidence to back up my claims, evidence you have yet to rebut.

Here is my evidence: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

There is nothing wrong with admitting defeat, coming back with better evidence later, or letting the thread die with the possibility of people thinking you may have been wrong.

Troxx

08-11-2023, 07:15 PM

I am currently winning the debate

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExOGhneGdocnV2Y3FwdG5jeWtsdjJhMXp iZGI3c3Exb3ZoZm9oMXNsYSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/mbZj5W3NHOCoGsHo65/giphy.gif

If that will help you sleep better tonight, you go along thinking that sugar-bear.

bcbrown

08-11-2023, 07:16 PM

I’m glad you said all that. I’m just sad I had such a hard time understanding it. Lots of big words and unfamiliar terminology I had to google.

Optimization needs:

Some outcome you want to minimize (or maximize), and a way to measure it
A set of parameters to fiddle with

Multi-armed bandits: Imagine you're at a casino with a row of slot machines, which are sometimes called "one-armed bandits". Each slot machine has a different unknown payout rate. How should you choose which machine to play (exploit), and when should you choose to stick with the current machine versus move to another machine (explore)? Epsilon-greedy is one strategy for how to choose when to explore and when to exploit.

Recursive gradient descent: Imagine the space of possible outcomes is a valley, and you're somewhere on the side of that valley. Play an iterated game: from where you are currently, figure out which direction is "most downhill"; take a step in that direction, then repeat.

Simulated annealing: imagine there's a small pond or low spot or "false valley" on the hillside of the valley. To avoid getting stuck there and never finding the actual valley, change the size of your step, and each time add a small random jump. That way, you have a chance of getting out of the false valley and eventually finding the real valley. The metaphor is with metallurgy, where the final crystal structure is a function of the rate of cooling of the hot metal; you add a "temperature" parameter that automatically lowers over the course of the iterations, so that you take smaller and smaller steps with less random jumps. Instead of metallurgy you can also think about tempering chocolate when cooking.

Banana problem: Say you want to recommend some food item to a shopper on your grocery site. You might start by saying, based on the current item the shopper is looking at, what is the item that has been historically bought most often by people who bought that item? This is the "people who bought this also bought that" set of recommendations on Amazon. The problem is, bananas are so popular that no matter what item you're looking at, it's likely that the item most commonly paired with that item is bananas. So you need to adjust the ranking to account for the overall popularity of each item. So the new question is: given this item, what items are bought along with it at a rate above the base rate.

Collaborative recommendation systems: We will recommend something for you based on the past behavior of other shoppers.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 07:20 PM

If that will help you sleep better tonight, you go along thinking that sugar-bear.

I am not sure why you think you have provided anything of substance in this thread. So far you have given us a lot of gifs, bad troll attempts, and a parse that you deemed to be invalid. You have contributed nothing, but expect victory to be handed to you because other people agree with you. If you want to let the thread die, just let it die. But you haven't done anything here to support your position.

Optimization needs:

Some outcome you want to minimize (or maximize), and a way to measure it
A set of parameters to fiddle with

Multi-armed bandits: Imagine you're at a casino with a row of slot machines, which are sometimes called "one-armed bandits". Each slot machine has a different unknown payout rate. How should you choose which machine to play (exploit), and when should you choose to stick with the current machine versus move to another machine (explore)? Epsilon-greedy is one strategy for how to choose when to explore and when to exploit.

Recursive gradient descent: Imagine the space of possible outcomes is a valley, and you're somewhere on the side of that valley. Play an iterated game: from where you are currently, figure out which direction is "most downhill"; take a step in that direction, then repeat.

Simulated annealing: imagine there's a small pond or low spot or "false valley" on the hillside of the valley. To avoid getting stuck there and never finding the actual valley, change the size of your step, and each time add a small random jump. That way, you have a chance of getting out of the false valley and eventually finding the real valley. The metaphor is with metallurgy, where the final crystal structure is a function of the rate of cooling of the hot metal; you add a "temperature" parameter that automatically lowers over the course of the iterations, so that you take smaller and smaller steps with less random jumps. Instead of metallurgy you can also think about tempering chocolate when cooking.

Banana problem: Say you want to recommend some food item to a shopper on your grocery site. You might start by saying, based on the current item the shopper is looking at, what is the item that has been historically bought most often by people who bought that item? This is the "people who bought this also bought that" set of recommendations on Amazon. The problem is, bananas are so popular that no matter what item you're looking at, it's likely that the item most commonly paired with that item is bananas. So you need to adjust the ranking to account for the overall popularity of each item. So the new question is: given this item, what items are bought along with it at a rate above the base rate.

Collaborative recommendation systems: We will recommend something for you based on the past behavior of other shoppers.

Thanks for taking the time to post this!

bcbrown

08-11-2023, 07:27 PM

Therefore, the only real consideration left is the statistical probability that you will cap the stat. This is because a capped stat provides zero value.

So your cost function is "minimize overcapping of relevant attributes". That's not my cost function: I will never cap any stat on any character I play, and even if I did, I will have no regret to minimize.

What I care about is what will maximize my quality of life while leveling from, say, 20 to 40? And although we all agree that the impact of starting stats is minimal, minimal is not zero.

So my cost function applies zero weight to overcapping any stat, and instead emphasizes kill-speed while leveling and loot carrying capacity.

bcbrown

08-11-2023, 07:31 PM

Thanks for taking the time to post this!

You're welcome! And now, if you'll excuse me, there's some grass in my backyard that I need to go touch.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 07:37 PM

So your cost function is "minimize overcapping of relevant attributes". That's not my cost function: I will never cap any stat on any character I play, and even if I did, I will have no regret to minimize.

What I care about is what will maximize my quality of life while leveling from, say, 20 to 40? And although we all agree that the impact of starting stats is minimal, minimal is not zero.

So my cost function applies zero weight to overcapping any stat, and instead emphasizes kill-speed while leveling and loot carrying capacity.

If you want to argue the merits of individual stats, you are going against your claim that starting stats are irrelevant.

There is nothing wrong with changing your position on whether or not starting stats are irrelevant. However, you now need to provide tangible evidence to support your position. It is misleading to tell people they are getting tangible improvements to kill speed, when you haven't actually done anything to prove this. You are guessing.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300 - So far I have shown a 1.5 average DPS increase with +20 STR on a level 60 character. This number is probably going to be lower on a lower level character with worse gear, unless someone can show evidence otherwise. I am not saying this evidence is fool proof. I am happy to be proven wrong if someone can bring something better.

I have stated before that there is nothing wrong with picking STR if you want short term gains. Your first character on a server or a self found character are characters that may want short term gains. That doesn't make STR the objectively best stat to pick, it simply makes STR the best stat for your specific scenario. There is nothing wrong with this.

If you know that the STR is a short term gain, and will not be as useful later on, you won't have any regrets. People feel regret when they realize they made a mistake. You won't make a mistake if you know what you are doing and why. That is why we need to have the objective facts.

Snaggles

08-11-2023, 08:24 PM

People feel regret when they realize they made a mistake.

If this is the thing keeping you awake at night either you are a simpleton who faces no real-life difficulties OR are a saint and you have nothing else in life to regret than EQ starting point mistakes. Since saints don't play EQ...well...

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 08:33 PM

If this is the thing keeping you awake at night either you are a simpleton who faces no real-life difficulties OR are a saint and you have nothing else in life to regret than EQ starting point mistakes. Since saints don't play EQ...well...

The simpleton is the person who posts insults when they are unable to articulate their points with logic and evidence.

Snaggles

08-11-2023, 08:41 PM

The simpleton is the person who posts insults when they are unable to articulate their points with logic and evidence.

Usually, logic and evidence doesn't take 35 pages to come to a result with.

The fact that you took that as a personal insult rather than a silly joke about random people fixating on silly things is odd.

Edit: You understand the difference between the literal "you" and the less literal/colloquial version ie "a person", right? Again...not an insult. A query.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-11-2023, 08:59 PM

Usually, logic and evidence doesn't take 35 pages to come to a result with.

The fact that you took that as a personal insult rather than a silly joke about random people fixating on silly things is odd.

Edit: You understand the difference between the literal "you" and the less literal/colloquial version ie "a person", right? Again...not an insult. A query.

You are correct, it shouldn't take 35 pages. Blame the trolls like Troxx for that. He could simply admit he is wrong or doesn't have enough evidence to prove his points.

When you post silly comments without context, you may get into trouble. I would advise simply not posting silly comments like that in the first place.

rjw513

08-11-2023, 10:38 PM

OK so int is the min max answer, great…but the right answer to op’s inquiry is str so he shouldn’t admit he’s wrong…no one is “wrong” or “right” and again not sure why you see it as someone has to “win” the debate lol

Everyone except you agrees so maybe you don’t need math or whatever other stats you say are relevant to realize you are closer to “wrong” than anyone else here

You of all people should realize why someone would not want to “admit” being wrong

Vexenu

08-11-2023, 10:53 PM

If we agree that starting stats will not affect your character in a meaningful way

DSM, this is your problem. We don't agree on this, because it's very obviously untrue in the case of STR. This is because STR is literally the only stat in the game that is useful 100% of the time when uncapped, if only for increasing your ability to carry extra gold/plat. You may say that this is useless or at best an edge case, but this is indisputably a benefit that STR provides. Further, STR provides an indisputable benefit on each and every melee attack your character makes, from level 1-60. Literally every single attack is enhanced by extra STR. At the very bare minimum, not having to delete a stack of 1200 gold or being able to carry a few extra FS weapons to vendor is meaningful, because that generates additional plat for the character.

Conversely, the INT stat is only useful to expand the maximum pool of mana available. I agree that this is indisputably a benefit to the character, with the caveat that this benefit will NOT be felt AT ALL for 99.99% of the character's playtime, and will be felt even less the more experienced the player is with the game (since they will know how to avoid situations where having a tiny bit of extra mana made the difference between life and death to begin with). You may claim that having a larger mana pool is more convenient for fear kiting/soloing, but this is simply a matter of opinion, as I can counter-claim (reasonably) that having higher STR for carrying more plat is more convenient. Further, I think that my claim has more merit, since being able to carry more gold/plat provides a tangible benefit over time, while taking a break to AFK med after 28 minutes of kiting vs. 30 minutes is essentially a distinction without a difference.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that INT is worth pumping simply because it is harder to cap, but by this logic you might as well pump CHA instead. It doesn't matter that INT is harder to cap, it matters if INT is useful enough to warrant pumping instead of STR. And in the case of a moderately twinked Iksar SK alt who will likely never level past the mid 50s, much less approach BiS gear, it simply isn't.

rjw513

08-11-2023, 11:01 PM

FAX

Lune

08-11-2023, 11:26 PM

DSM, this is your problem. We don't agree on this, because it's very obviously untrue in the case of STR. This is because STR is literally the only stat in the game that is useful 100% of the time when uncapped, if only for increasing your ability to carry extra gold/plat. You may say that this is useless or at best an edge case, but this is indisputably a benefit that STR provides. Further, STR provides an indisputable benefit on each and every melee attack your character makes, from level 1-60. Literally every single attack is enhanced by extra STR. At the very bare minimum, not having to delete a stack of 1200 gold or being able to carry a few extra FS weapons to vendor is meaningful, because that generates additional plat for the character.

Conversely, the INT stat is only useful to expand the maximum pool of mana available. I agree that this is indisputably a benefit to the character, with the caveat that this benefit will NOT be felt AT ALL for 99.99% of the character's playtime, and will be felt even less the more experienced the player is with the game (since they will know how to avoid situations where having a tiny bit of extra mana made the difference between life and death to begin with). You may claim that having a larger mana pool is more convenient for fear kiting/soloing, but this is simply a matter of opinion, as I can counter-claim (reasonably) that having higher STR for carrying more plat is more convenient. Further, I think that my claim has more merit, since being able to carry more gold/plat provides a tangible benefit over time, while taking a break to AFK med after 28 minutes of kiting vs. 30 minutes is essentially a distinction without a difference.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that INT is worth pumping simply because it is harder to cap, but by this logic you might as well pump CHA instead. It doesn't matter that INT is harder to cap, it matters if INT is useful enough to warrant pumping instead of STR. And in the case of a moderately twinked Iksar SK alt who will likely never level past the mid 50s, much less approach BiS gear, it simply isn't.

All pretty logically sound points made on like page 2 that just bounced off DSM's thick skull

DeathsSilkyMist

08-12-2023, 12:25 AM

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 12:38 AM

The issue with your logic here is you are completely missing how statistics work. statistics can prove anything - I think you are so focused on statistics you are overlooking practical reality.

Nobody in this thread has denied that you can cap one stat over another with certain combinations of gear. I do not deny it either.

The only thing that matters is the statistical probability of capping a stat. This is because most players acquire gear organically. You don't know what gear you are going to end up with when you first start your character. Just because a probability is low, it doesn't mean you can't have it occur. INT is the hardest stat to cap statistically speaking using relevant SK gear, and all the data is available on the wiki to show this is the case.
Again, disagreed. What matters is how characters end up geared, not statistics. Statistics may guide creation and gearing decisions but if those decisions don’t meet their objectives then the statistics must have overlooked some assumptions.

Saying "it can happen" is like telling someone they will win the lottery. It is possible, but statistically unlikely. This is why you do not advise someone to spend there whole life savings on lottery tickets.

Rip’s Magelo is very top end. Yours is decent. Yet both have issues capping core tank stats with/without buffs.

As for buffs, you can easily show that you cannot get +235 INT, which means it is also harder to cap in that scenario.

You are incorrect about your assessment of my SK's stats. My SK has a lot more STR because tank gear tends to have STR on it. Trolls also have higher starting STR. My Magelo supports my position that relevant SK gear is more likely to have STR on it, instead of INT. I also put my starting stats into INT.

I thought you said having high str gave the ability to focus on +int gear though? Maybe you need to follow your own advice more aggressively if you really value int over str/sta?

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 02:18 AM

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 02:24 AM

A whole lot of random opinions and insults. Nobody has shown that the STR is giving enough DPS to matter. Therefore it remains unfounded opinions.

That is your guys problem. Lots of assumtions and insults lol.

Str not just improves DPS, but unlocks harder content faster (more xp, ergo better loot mobs) and improves plat/hour (more kills), but by reducing frequency of vendor runs AND increasing value of vendor runs (carry capacity).

The extra income of STR allows for better upgrades, making the character gear up faster.

Str is a compounding effect!

Statistically +Str is essentially improved mana regen, as +str will let you afford your first mana regen item sooner, getting the benefit of it for longer and meaning the +mana regen is lifetime higher for a +str char than a +int.

:)

Confirmed mad treble post!

DeathsSilkyMist

08-12-2023, 02:31 AM

statistics can prove anything - I think you are so focused on statistics you are overlooking practical reality.

Again, disagreed. What matters is how characters end up geared, not statistics. Statistics may guide creation and gearing decisions but if those decisions don’t meet their objectives then the statistics must have overlooked some assumptions.

Rip’s Magelo is very top end. Yours is decent. Yet both have issues capping core tank stats with/without buffs.

I thought you said having high str gave the ability to focus on +int gear though? Maybe you need to follow your own advice more aggressively if you really value int over str/sta?

You completely misread my post in it's entirety. You need to reread it, as you missed every single point. I would just be retyping the same thing.

DSM values levelling as an ordeal to go through that unlocks end game. Others view the end game just being a postgame/'winners room' for people that exhausted/completed the real game content (levelling up).

IMO this is why he values levelling stats much lower than endgame bis stats.

I am simply looking at the data: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300 .

I have leveled a Monk from 10-52 recently with 140 or less STR for the entire leveling process. I can tell you that having 140 STR was not a problem. 160 STR wouldn't have helped me.

Anybody claiming STR will give a significant boost to DPS is literally pulling this opinion out of thin air, and should not be listened to until they can provide evidence.

Confirmed mad treble post!

I am not mad at all. I am simply pointing out that people continue to post insults and baseless opinions. It is honestly sad that people care so much about trying to be right, that they are willing to mislead new players.

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 02:34 AM

I was the one who made the treble post, hence am the mad one, DSM. Please reread my post as you have not understood. :)

DeathsSilkyMist

08-12-2023, 02:37 AM

I was the one who made the treble post, hence am the mad one, DSM. Please reread my post as you have not understood. :)

Please stop trolling threads that are designed to help new players. Why do you need to be so destructive and unhelpful?

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 03:18 AM

New players that haven't got PP to get a twink set including an Iksar Regen BP don't need advice telling them to cripple their first 40 levels to make their character infinitesimally better after they complete 10 years of gearing.

Your advice is shown to hardly apply to pretty hard core players like yourself and Rip, let alone players that may only get a few dozen levels on their first toon.

Wow. I've not insulted you once, yet you accuse me of trolling, being destructive and unhelpful?

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 03:23 AM

Also, if you're gonna throw around phrases telling people they don't understand and to reread your post, don't be a cunt and throw a hissy fit when they reflect it back at you.

Just trying to speak your language, but if you don't like it done to you, don't do it to others.

Also you need to discriminate humour and trolling. A lot of posters are responding to you with what appears to me to be good humour, and you read their tone completely differently and either accuse them of being mad or trolling. Thats an accusation of aggression, and tbh encourages and escalates aggression, as you can see from the start of my post.

But yea, I don't want you to feel bullied or I'm trolling newbs, sorry I came across that way to you.

rjw513

08-12-2023, 07:38 AM

“It is honestly sad that people care so much about trying to be right, that they are willing to mislead new players.“

….wait what?!?! lol

Snaggles

08-12-2023, 08:46 AM

A whole lot of random opinions and insults. Nobody has shown that the STR is giving enough DPS to matter. Therefore it remains unfounded opinions.

That is your guys problem. Lots of assumtions and insults lol.

Your problem is the shifting goalposts. Switching between the BiS cap-quest argument which 99.999% of players will never experience to them throwing words like “enough” in there as qualifyers. How do you measure the net benefit of “enough” dps or the net benefit of half of a life tap that never gets cast and thus never saves your life? It’s FSI-quest all over again. Not being able to prove something will ever do anything but believing it has to such a degree it’s priceless to not have it. Meanwhile strength is a measurable metric. You run slow if overweight, you aren’t as high on a parse if undercapped attack, your average hit literally increases.

Almost every SK could swap out HP gear at any point for intel gear. Often they don’t. Meanwhile a Belt of The Great Turtle is 70k and it provides the same benefit for most players most of the time of being 20 str shy. Especially a small sk who is casually geared.

IF people ever cared to ask the OP qualifying questions (and they responded) to help THEM specifically they could actually prove other people wrong. Frankly you wouldn’t have to because the lion share discussing per clear definitions wouldn’t be arguing in the first place. Instead, this is a general philosophy discussion. I don’t know much about philosophy but the greats rarely sat down in their robes shutting people down that their perspectives were invalid because of a specific edge case.

In the end nobody talking on page 35+ needs any of the “advice”. If we are doing it “wrong” we are still doing fine as is. Soloing to 60, raiding at a high level, or just having fun while not dying. We are pretty locked in our ways at this point and any self-realization is going to be esoterically specific, not some generic realization that attack or mana is helpful.

PS Anyone who’s in the universe of having any of the gear your fake Magelo listed, let alone ALL of it, isn’t going to post a thread asking if strength is worth putting starting points in. They aren’t naive and certainly don’t care about our input anyways when they could be socking rando task-rabbit dkp for their 10th BiS slot…

Troxx

08-12-2023, 09:40 AM

Wow. I've not insulted you once, yet you accuse me of trolling, being destructive and unhelpful?

https://media2.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExbW1wYWVhc2VzaThieXNjeDN4aTRuM2l tbW1hMXBpbDhwa2NwNmdzbiZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/l4JyOCNEfXvVYEqB2/giphy.gif

Ripqozko

08-12-2023, 09:55 AM

Snaggles

08-12-2023, 10:07 AM

I troll lot but even I tried having a normal conversation with some good info based on my experience with gear. Sta is not as easy to max on a DE. If I went int I’d be in a super hole. Even atm I need like vulak bracer to cap with 1h.

Edit: all he did was shit on it even tho I showed what I have

Stamina is not easy to cap for a little race that raids. Unless you have extremely good gear or are picking like less optimal pieces (low ac or hp but have excessive stamina).

Not to say the 1% or even 5% can’t do it. It’s just good to keep in mind some people are here for the nostalgia, or to group with their buddies. They may never raid or even hit 60. Strength isn’t an ideal place to put points for a raider. Stamina isn’t bad though. Like you said previously having a spare buff slot is really nice as is running around with more hps all the time.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-12-2023, 10:34 AM

The only goalpost moving is from other posters.

First you say starting stats do not matter. This means the starting stat bonuses aren't a factor.

Then you argue that starting stat bonuses do matter.

When I mention the fact that you have no evidence to back up your claim about 20 STR giving a significant boost to DPS, you go back to claiming starting stats are irrelevant lol.

Just saying "you are getting a DPS boost" can be misleading if the boost is so small that you aren't getting more kills per hour. It is unnoticeable at that point.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300 I am the only one to back up my claims with evidence. I have argued the same thing the entire thread, so this idea I am moving goalposts is just silly.

There is nothing wrong with admitting you are wrong, or that you cannot prove your point. Please stop posting nonsense that confuses other players.

But yea, I don't want you to feel bullied or I'm trolling newbs, sorry I came across that way to you.

Thank you for the apology. I apologize that I misread your post. Remember that I can only see your text, not your intent. That is why we need to be careful with what we post. This includes myself.

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 11:03 AM

No one is going to be confused by this discussion, DSM. I feel you're just trying to tell people (politely) to shut up because they have a different perspective (which is bound to happen - we all play our own styles).

What evidence do we need that increased strength reduces encumbrance, or that being able to carry more will help the character to earn loot and gear up?

What evidence do we need, besides multiple 60 magelos, that show even after years of gearing Sta is difficult to cap (needing PE, or even upgrades to what is already top tier gear)?

What evidence do we need to demonstrate that that in our value judgement a 4% DPS boost is worth while for 60 levels?

You're asking for evidence for things that are basic facts of the game, have already been demonstrated, or are situational / value judgements.

I like looking at Magelos, because they are real world examples of character sheets. We can theory quest the best builds, but it is more realistic to look at set ups people actually use.

I looked at my own 52 SK, Nareik (blue). On Magelo his gear weighs in at 90 (admittedly the clicky stuff would usually be kept in WR bags, which mag doesn't account for, but that is (tens) of thousands of pp investment essentially just to increase my carry strength by a couple of dozen). Thats one squished iksar from the get-go (okay, they'd be unlikely to have inventoried BE stuff and could avoid the cheap but heavy items).

For newbie characters (I'm talking up to a few 100pp budget) a set of banded and a weapon weights about 60. Adding in a few backpacks, medicine bags, tool kits, whatever, 8 stacks of bandages, food, drink, (potions if you burn cash like me) a tank is going to be encumbered practically the start of every adventure.

If you want to argue to protect the newbies, this is the kind of set up you want to consider. 20str is going to help them all the way up to 60, and even after hitting 60 it is going to help them when focus/me/avatar get dispelled or debuffs lands. All +int will do is give them the smarts to have the epiphany that their bonus starting stats didn't do much help for 59 levels!

Honestly, my favourite part of STR is just the carry 24/7 capacity and improved resilience to cripple/incapacitate spells (they really fuck you up, especially if your tank gets encumbered / agi reduced to below 75).

DeathsSilkyMist

08-12-2023, 11:05 AM

Maybe that is the disconnect. I am not telling people to shut up at all.

I am saying that you cannot make factual claims like "you will get enough DPS from 20 STR to level faster", when you have no evidence. I have actually provided evidence to the contrary https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300. There is a point at which DPS isn't helpful if the number is too small.

If you want to say you prefer STR, there is nothing wrong with that. Please post it! Just do not make a factual claim without evidence and try to pass it off as fact.

This will confuse players who don't understand the game as well.

As far as I can tell, OP is twinking their character. They will have plenty of STR and weight reduction. I have already said many times that STR is good on your first character on a server, or a self found character. It isn't the objectively best choice, but it is a good choice for that specific scenario.

Troxx

08-12-2023, 11:25 AM

https://media.tenor.com/1Nhd0H7cAacAAAAC/yoda-makes-sence.gif

Infectious

08-12-2023, 01:09 PM

Another thread of DSM having to get the last word in that he is correct and everybody else is wrong? LOL who would've thought?

Snaggles

08-12-2023, 01:21 PM

“ I have shown an Iksar SK can get a large amount of STR in easily acquired gear, this can be found here: https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK. This shows that you can get enough STR to deal good damage and carry around lots of loot without having to raid.”

The logical choice to upgrade to a Reaver from that horrible Argent Protector (or even to use some nice 1h/shield combos like the Ebon and Ashenbone Shield) will lose you 10 strength. Now down to 162. Leveling up with a shaman you will usually have 60’ish extra strength so 222 out of 255. 10 more with the strength tap that lasts like 5 minutes.

Fast-forward to 60 you will only cap with Maniacal Strength and Focus. As you know shamans have a lot to do on a raid rather than throwing in one more buff. A rational player will just suck it up and deal with Focus. Again, undercapped. 230 buffed strength or 240 if you can land Siphon Strength or I guess carry around a Dark Reaver to stack that too.

If the SK put points into stamina instead of strength at least they wouldn’t be stuck with that 106 shown on the Magelo. They would still be like 74 points from the goal.

Really the link to shared illustrates how marginal little race melee stats are out of the box even if you optimize strength making poor tank armor picks (it looks more ranger than Knight oriented). When you’re still about 20 strength from target and 99 stamina I’d recommend not putting points into intelligence.

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 01:27 PM

Maybe that is the disconnect. I am not telling people to shut up at all.

Good to hear, just letting you know that when you disagree with an opinion, write it off as nonsense and ask people to stop posting then it can come across that way.

Ripqozko

08-12-2023, 02:34 PM

busted

08-12-2023, 03:26 PM

After reading all 38 pages of this thread, I can conclude that +20 AGI as starting stats is the way to go.

Thank you for the insight all!

Jimjam

08-12-2023, 03:32 PM

After reading all 38 pages of this thread, I can conclude that +20 AGI as starting stats is the way to go.

Thank you for the insight all!

10/10

bcbrown

08-12-2023, 03:43 PM

If you want to argue the merits of individual stats, you are going against your claim that starting stats are irrelevant.

I don't believe I have ever said that starting stats are irrelevant. If you're going to claim that I said that, you need to provide evidence. I believe I have been consistent in saying that starting stats "have minimal impact", and minimal is not zero. A little bit extra DPS on every swing and a little bit more carrying capacity is a nice QoL improvement.

I honestly never see forum toxicity translate to in-game toxicity. I'll gladly play P99 with him any time.

Cheers mate! I had a blast with you on Thursday. I got to check something off my list of EQ experiences (crawling Lower Guk), and we both leveled. I'm very appreciative that you were up for duoing even though most of my posts on here are disagreeing with you. And those Adamantite Epaulets are a great upgrade for me.

It does make me chuckle that when we ended the evening I was ~50 stone overweight, although a lot of that was because you graciously let me do all the looting and because I forgot to vendor/bank before meeting up.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-12-2023, 03:43 PM

Good to hear, just letting you know that when you disagree with an opinion, write it off as nonsense and ask people to stop posting then it can come across that way.

If you make a factual claim without evidence, it is nonsense. Telling people +20 STR is giving you a significant DPS boost is like saying 20 STA gives you 500 HP (this isn't true). I ask that people stop posting factual inaccuracies, because it causes confusion. That is all I am asking

If you are confident about the DPS boost, you need to show your work. I will be happy to admit I am wrong if you can show the DPS numbers.

Cheers mate! I had a blast with you on Thursday. I got to check something off my list of EQ experiences (crawling Lower Guk), and we both leveled. I'm very appreciative that you were up for duoing even though most of my posts on here are disagreeing with you. And those Adamantite Epaulets are a great upgrade for me.

It does make me chuckle that when we ended the evening I was ~50 stone overweight, although a lot of that was because you graciously let me do all the looting and because I forgot to vendor/bank before meeting up.

Yeah I had a blast, thanks for grouping with me!

Jimjam

08-13-2023, 12:59 AM

I’m a but confused, cos you keep saying we have to show 20 str significantly affects dps. It is shown it improves max hit and di multiplier, and been shown to be ~5% improvement (in a situation which is admittedly unlikely to be generalisable).

Are you saying you want the improvement to be shown to be statistically significant, as in p<0.005? Imo this is unnecessary as we know the formula for two ways even just 20 str improves dps (as above) it is simply a case of having sufficient sample size to make the effect measurable.

If you’re asking to show that 5% improvement is meaningful … well I’d use a 38 delay weapon over a 40 delay +20 int weapon while levelling given the choice.

Anyway, for me the 20 str is more about the carry capacity and how I feel it reduces frequency/improves productivity of vendoring and allows you to carry more gear.

I think those are both play-style factors which are a matter of personal preference or value judgement derived enjoyment rather than mathable concepts.

Troxx

08-13-2023, 01:14 AM

If you are confident about the DPS boost, you need to show your work. I will be happy to admit I am wrong if you can show the DPS numbers.

My numbers (the ones I acknowledged were insufficient in that I didn’t occupy the camp long enough to log enough hits) showed a 16% difference. I was more than happy to exclude my parses from the discussion. My findings were TOO GOOD to be real. They supported my hypothesis to an unbelievable level. The fights were too short and Lady Luck obviously skewed the data. I needed a sample size at least 5-10x larger to be even remotely confident of anything.

I was planning on repeating my testing on a mob that wasn’t a level 5 green, but you somehow took my findings (flawed though they were) and managed to twist it in your mind as somehow being consistent with your findings and supporting your argument when they did the exact opposite.

????

It was at that moment I remembered how it doesn’t actually matter whether opposing evidence is given to you. You always either shift a goalpost or wildly misinterpret what is given to you.

So yeah I gave up on wasting 4-8 hours of my life when the data you provided from Mr Turtle was perfectly sufficient (flawed though it is) to drive the point home.

YOUR numbers showed the 4.3% DPS boost from 20 under cap strength difference. For the purposes of discussion and to give you the benefit of the doubt, WE have been referencing YOUR numbers for several pages now.

Using YOUR evidence that YOU provided …

It’s a choice between:

A) At least 4.3% more damage and 20lb more hauling capacity 100% of the time you’re not overcapped str

B) A mana pool larger in size to whatever degree 20 intelligence will help you at whatever level you are and your intelligence relative to the pre/post 200 intelligence returns. At 60 this could be as high as 200 more mana or as low as 80 more mana. The returns on mana are exponentially lower the lower your level - the amount of mana per int (or wis for priests and their hybrids) scales with level.

A represents an always there benefit - whether you’re in combat or hauling weight.

B represents the possibility of a benefit at some point between level 1-60 where an extra 20-25 mana (low levels) to scaled up 80-200 extra mana (level 60) where that extra mana might have let you accomplish something you otherwise might not have been able to that would have made a meaningful difference. It requires the SK find themselves in not only an extraordinary situation … but also find themselves otherwise out of mana at the point in time that 20-25 (lowest levels) scaling up with levels to 80-200 extra mana (level 60). It doesn’t let you cast more spells over time. It just makes your maximum reserve a wee bit bigger.

—————————————
———————————

You got so caught up in the weeds of having “evidence” and “data” to “prove a point” that you missed out on the most important part of it all: the practical discussion.

Unfortunately I think when you see posts like this (ones with lots of paragraphs and complete sentences) you tend to focus on individual trees you find objectionable and miss the whole god damn forest around you.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 10:27 AM

You got so caught up in the weeds of having “evidence” and “data” to “prove a point” that you missed out on the most important part of it all: the practical discussion.

Unfortunately I think when you see posts like this (ones with lots of paragraphs and complete sentences) you tend to focus on individual trees you find objectionable and miss the whole god damn forest around you.

I haven't missed the practical discussion.

If you read my posts, you will see I have leveled an Iksar Monk from 10-52 recently with 140 STR or less, and without Tink Bags. I was getting 1 level an hour, and was able to loot/sell everything. I know from practial experience 160 STR wouldn't have improved my leveling experience compared to 140 STR.

I read everything you post. You are simply too busy trolling and saying nonsense like "you are moving goalposts", when I have been 100% consistent. The only goalpost moving has been other posters switching between "starting stats do not matter" and "STR is giving you a significant DPS boost". This is why most of what you type isn't worth replying to. Typing a lot of paragraphs doesn't mean you are actually saying anything worthwhile.

My current data https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300 shows the DPS difference is 1.5 or so with +20 STR, and this difference is probably going to be lower at lower levels. This isn't going to be noticeable to a player casually leveling.

If you want to bring some valid data, I would be happy to take a look, and admit I am wrong if you show the DPS difference is large enough to matter.

The data currently shows INT as the best starting stat, and most people agree that starting stats don't really matter.

Jimjam

08-13-2023, 10:37 AM

I wouldn’t recommend putting int on a monk tbh.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 10:54 AM

I wouldn’t recommend putting int on a monk tbh.

Lol agreed. Put your starting stats into STA instead of STR for a Monk.

Jimjam

08-13-2023, 11:01 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 11:20 AM

A monk does have much less worry for carry capacity though - doesn't have to worry about carrying around 50+ weight just in armour. I note your monk is using fast primary, which means a higher portion of dps comes from static damage bonus (making str less relevant) furthermore monks have amazing attack levels to punch through mob AC.

My monk wore like cloth tier armour, schw and a wu’s staff til like 40 with no probs. Monks are just op and designed to need minimal gear (in vanilla .. they kinda retained that aspect and then got amazing gear thrown on top anyway in velious and especially kunark)

Did you trial +20 str at any point and switch it out for something else?

While Monk armor is lighter, Tank gear tends to have more STR on it, which offsets the higher weight. Monks also have less gear to choose from.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:TestIksarSK - If you look at the gear here, you will see that the pieces with +STR on them all have a much higher STR value than weight value. The only exception to this is https://wiki.project1999.com/Cloak_of_the_Maelstrom . The test Magelo has 60 stone of gear on, but 20 stone of that is the cloak lol. You can swap that cloak for a number of other ones if you are worried about the weight.

I was using my two handed Imbued Fighters Staff until 50, I didn't get Baton/Addy club until 51, and I couldn't use Epic until 46. Over the leveling process I was improving/changing my gear, so my STR did fluctuate to be lower sometimes, but I was never over 140ish. I never noticed a difference when my STR was lower.

I also didn't bother with keeping my weight under the monk weight limits. I just picked up everything and was often at 50+ stone. I had the usual WR bags: EE Bag, Large Burlap Sack, and Shralok Packs. I bought a single Tink Bag when I was in my 40s just so I could test the mitigation differences between being under the monk weight limit vs. not being under the monk weight limit. It wasn't because I was running into issues where I was unable to sell all my loot.

Troxx

08-13-2023, 11:50 AM

You are simply too busy trolling and saying nonsense like "you are moving goalposts"

Pretty sure that's the first time i've said that in this thread.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 11:58 AM

Pretty sure that's the first time i've said that in this thread.

I apologize if this is your first time saying it here. You have said it to me in other threads when it also was untrue, so I may have been thinking of that.

If you want to claim I am shifting goalposts, you need to show why. I am confident you won't find anything, as I have been consistent throughout this entire thread.

The only goalpost shifting has been to say "starting stats do not matter", and then switching to "starting stats do matter".

I do not mind if people change their position on whether starting stats matter or not. However, people are changing their position to avoid providing evidence for the "starting stats matter" position. This is actual goal post shifting.

Troxx

08-13-2023, 12:09 PM

I apologize if this is your first time saying it here. You have said it to me in other threads when it also was untrue, so I may have been thinking of that.

even if you read the 449 page thread ... you'll see that most people who mention moving goalposts ain't me.

Not that i disagree with the sentiment, mind you. It is a common tactic of yours.

Point is using your 2h on Mr Turtle you proved a 4.3% dps difference on a 200ac level 5 mob. The dps variance is likely higher on a level appropriate mob. We are using YOUR numbers at this point.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 12:13 PM

The only common tactic is you lying about me moving goalposts:) Please provide where I did it.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 01:58 PM

Point is using your 2h on Mr Turtle you proved a 4.3% dps difference on a 200ac level 5 mob. The dps variance is likely higher on a level appropriate mob. We are using YOUR numbers at this point.

You have yet to prove the DPS difference will be higher, so please stop assuming it will be. A lower level player's DPS will be lower, which means the DPS difference will also be lower. 4% of 30 DPS is 1.2 DPS, not the 3 DPS difference between 67 and 70.

You can provide evidence, or at least the forumulas you are using. Then we can see if your assumptions have any merit.

Troxx

08-13-2023, 03:14 PM

You have yet to prove the DPS difference will be higher, so please stop assuming it will be.

Point it it doesn't matter if i'm right or not (I'm right but that's not relevant). If we just assume your numbers are universally right... that's 4.3%.

!?

?!

???

Vexenu

08-13-2023, 03:41 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 04:07 PM

Everyone: STR on an Iksar SK who is not likely to get endgame gear is more useful than INT

DSM: My massively twinked Monk wearing near-BiS droppable gear gets one level per hour, therefore STR is irrelevant

lol wut

The goalposts are traveling into other dimensions at this point.

Please show me where OP said twinking wasn't an option. You are making up goalposts and then assuming I am moving them lol. That isn't how this works. You are trying so hard to discredit people, because you can't do anything else.

Point it it doesn't matter if i'm right or not (I'm right but that's not relevant). If we just assume your numbers are universally right... that's 4.3%.

Your arrogance is showing lol. You shouldn't just assume you are right for no reason.

Vexenu

08-13-2023, 04:50 PM

Please show me where OP said twinking wasn't an option. You are making up goalposts and then assuming I am moving them lol. That isn't how this works. You are trying so hard to discredit people, because you can't do anything else.

You're literally talking about AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CLASS at this point. That's how hard you're shifting the goalposts. And not just any class, the ONLY class in the game who gets little/no benefit from STR for loot purposes due to the weight limit.

We aren't talking about your twink Monk. We're talking specifically about an Iksar SK who will almost certainly never achieve endgame gear. Stay on topic. The fact is, even twinked, the Iksar SK benefits more from STR than INT. This is simply because STR is ALWAYS active and useful, both in and out of combat, while added INT is useful only in extremely rare edge case scenarios, where a tiny bit of extra mana makes the difference between life and death. This almost never happens, especially for experienced players who know how to avoid these type of situations.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 05:46 PM

You're literally talking about AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT CLASS at this point. That's how hard you're shifting the goalposts. And not just any class, the ONLY class in the game who gets little/no benefit from STR for loot purposes due to the weight limit.

We aren't talking about your twink Monk. We're talking specifically about an Iksar SK who will almost certainly never achieve endgame gear. Stay on topic. The fact is, even twinked, the Iksar SK benefits more from STR than INT. This is simply because STR is ALWAYS active and useful, both in and out of combat, while added INT is useful only in extremely rare edge case scenarios, where a tiny bit of extra mana makes the difference between life and death. This almost never happens, especially for experienced players who know how to avoid these type of situations.

Monks can carry weight over the Monk weight limit lol. I was at 100+ stone from coin and loot often on my monk. It is silly to try and argue players can't do this. I didn't have issues with being over the limit.

I have both practical experience and hard evidence to back up my claims, which are within the bounds of OP's question.

Please stop making up goal posts and then telling people they are moving them. It is sad.

Vexenu

08-13-2023, 06:08 PM

"I didn't have issues leveling my overweight Monk twinked with Fungi, IFS, 34% haste and other near-BiS droppables, therefore pump INT at creation on your Iksar SK." - DSM

Duik

08-13-2023, 06:26 PM

Can't ...... Be....... Wrong.
Unpossible.
INT.....
Edge Case Use.
Monk.... Overwieght..... IFS: Fungi: Haysssste: INT B4 STR on ALL CHARS.
New Meta.
Can't not be unwrong.
Goalposts. |-| Gooooooooaaaaaaaaalllllll!

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 06:30 PM

"I didn't have issues leveling my overweight Monk twinked with Fungi, IFS, 34% haste and other near-BiS droppables, therefore pump INT at creation on your Iksar SK." - DSM

I've leveled both a Monk and an SK. We are talking about how STR affects DPS, and both classes use STR in the same formula. You are delusional if you think there is no overlap.

I have provided evidence and practial experience. You have provided imaginary goal posts out out of pure desparation. Please quit while you are behind.

Toxigen

08-13-2023, 07:58 PM

lmao you guys are still going

Ripqozko

08-13-2023, 08:18 PM

lmao you guys are still going

you know how dsm is, everyone is wrong, his way is the only way.
cant even have like a half normal conversation with him, i feel bad for him tbh.

Troxx

08-13-2023, 08:29 PM

Everyone: STR on an Iksar SK who is not likely to get endgame gear is more useful than INT

DSM: My massively twinked Monk wearing near-BiS droppable gear gets one level per hour, therefore STR is irrelevant. Had cobalt bp/legs, a Narandi lance and a WESS and FB … so not a low plat alt.

lol wut

The goalposts are traveling into other dimensions at this point.

I had a level 55 ogre warrior in a group today ask for str because he was overweight with coin.

Just sayin’

Troxx

08-13-2023, 08:31 PM

lmao you guys are still going

This thread may or may not have Sildenafil.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 09:28 PM

you know how dsm is, everyone is wrong, his way is the only way.
cant even have like a half normal conversation with him, i feel bad for him tbh.

This is simply not true, and a twisted vision of reality. You make things up about other people to troll/discredit them. Unfortunately you are so bad at doing this, nobody believes you. Most of the time people just ignore you lol. I always believe people can get better, so I am still holding out hope that you will stop acting like this one day.

In a factual conversation such as this one, there is an objective answer. Whoever posts the objective answer will be correct. I have no desire to be right, and everybody else to be wrong. I simply want to give people the objective answer, and counter bad information that causes confusion. If you can show that my information is bad, I will happily admit I am wrong. I have done so on plenty of occasions on these forums.

I had a level 55 ogre warrior in a group today ask for str because he was overweight with coin.

Just sayin’

Being overweight happens, and STR buffs are great for that!

yes, im aware of the inate racial stat bonuses ogres and trolls have but Im a man of fun and lore and I really want to experience the green mist quest :)

OP is clearly not worried about the +60 STR difference between Ogres and Iksars. Otherwise they would pick Ogre. OP will not miss the +20 STR worth of starting stats that they put into INT, as they are already missing +60 STR.

Ripqozko

08-13-2023, 09:50 PM

This is simply not true, and a twisted vision of reality. You make things up about other people to troll/discredit them. Unfortunately you are so bad at doing this, nobody believes you. Most of the time people just ignore you lol. I always believe people can get better, so I am still holding out hope that you will stop acting like this one day.

In a factual conversation such as this one, there is an objective answer. Whoever posts the objective answer will be correct. I have no desire to be right, and everybody else to be wrong. I simply want to give people the objective answer, and counter bad information that causes confusion. If you can show that my information is bad, I will happily admit I am wrong. I have done so on plenty of occasions on these forums.

Being overweight happens, and STR buffs are great for that!

OP is clearly not worried about the +60 STR difference between Ogres and Iksars. Otherwise they would pick Ogre. OP will not miss the +20 STR worth of starting stats that they put into INT, as they are already missing +60 STR.

Nope it's true, no matter what anyone says they are wrong and you are right. It's sad really

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 09:55 PM

Nope it's true, no matter what anyone says they are wrong and you are right. It's sad really

You can find examples of me admitting I am wrong. That includes this thread, where I admitted you were right!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633115&postcount=44

This is why you are bad at trolling. You make things up that are easy to disprove.

Ripqozko

08-13-2023, 09:56 PM

You can find examples of me admitting I am wrong. That includes this thread, where I admitted you were right!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3633115&postcount=44

This is why you are bad at trolling. You make things up that are easy to disprove.

It's not trolling, every thread you are in is insufferable . You don't even notice , good luck

DeathsSilkyMist

08-13-2023, 10:02 PM

It's not trolling, every thread you are in is insufferable . You don't even notice , good luck

Glad to see you gave up your lies when they were shown to be false. Progress!

You may want to look in the mirror before judging others. You troll people often by your own admission.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634510&postcount=367

I troll lot...

The problem with trolling often is you ruin all credibility you have, and there is no reason for anybody to believe you. You did this to yourself, and now you are reaping the rewards.

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 05:31 AM

lmao you guys are still going

I really enjoy discussing eq :D

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 05:39 AM

OP is clearly not worried about the +60 STR difference between Ogres and Iksars. Otherwise they would pick Ogre. OP will not miss the +20 STR worth of starting stats that they put into INT, as they are already missing +60 STR. The benefit of ogre over iksar is irrelevant as the OP expressed their focus on the Greenmist. Are you seriously suggesting the ogre should faction iksar and do the quest just to bank it?!

I had a level 55 ogre warrior in a group today ask for str because he was overweight with coin. arguably the +20 starting strength wasn't important because your buffs could fix it... BUT not every situation is going to have a strength buffer. Also, how was the ogre geared? perhaps he DID be crazy enough to put starting strenght?!
Also, the need for buffs you describe highlights a big disadvantage of using buffs to offset lack of spending points on starting strength. Those points can't be dispelled or overridden by debuffs.

Monks can carry weight over the Monk weight limit lol. I was at 100+ stone from coin and loot often on my monk. It is silly to try and argue players can't do this. I didn't have issues with being over the limit.

I have both practical experience and hard evidence to back up my claims, which are within the bounds of OP's question.

Please stop making up goal posts and then telling people they are moving them. It is sad.

Regarding encumbrance, if you were at 100+ on your monk, you would have been over 150+ on an equivalent SK, potentially pushing it in to encumbrance.

You haven't posted any evidence to back up your claim that you wouldn't have done better with 160 str than 140.

Furthermore, your unsupported argument that '140 str squelches any AC xp mobs have, so adding strength wouldn't accomplish anything' actually undermines your demonstration of mr turtle's strength derived dps increase. This happens through two ways - 1) you admit it is possible to cap out the attack/mitigation roll and in these situations any change in dps would be marginal (basically improvements to the max hit / di multiplier). 2) therefore there are situations where attack isn't swamping mitigation and str derived attack improvements will provide more dps. I'll try get back to you in a month or so. If you could be so kind, do remind me.

OP if you are still reading, what other gear are you aiming for? Are you thinking the iksar only Greenmist armour from fear, as this seems to be a themed character, or is the weapon the only part you are interested in?

Troxx

08-14-2023, 09:32 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 09:42 AM

The benefit of ogre over iksar is irrelevant as the OP expressed their focus on the Greenmist. Are you seriously suggesting the ogre should faction iksar and do the quest just to bank it?!

I said OP understands that he is losing 60 STR by picking Iksar over Ogre. You do not need to read farther into it. I am not sure where you are getting this idea of doing Greenmist and banking it. Nobody suggested that.

arguably the +20 starting strength wasn't important because your buffs could fix it... BUT not every situation is going to have a strength buffer. Also, how was the ogre geared? perhaps he DID be crazy enough to put starting strenght?!
Also, the need for buffs you describe highlights a big disadvantage of using buffs to offset lack of spending points on starting strength. Those points can't be dispelled or overridden by debuffs.

Debuffs are much more dangerous for your other buffs, not STR buffs. Losing haste is a much bigger deal for your DPS. If someone needs a STR buff to run back to a vendor, it is unlikely they are getting dispelled.

Regarding encumbrance, if you were at 100+ on your monk, you would have been over 150+ on an equivalent SK, potentially pushing it in to encumbrance.

You can be over encumbrance and not lose your run speed, so that isn't an issue either. Being 20 stone over with 140ish STR is not a big deal.

You haven't posted any evidence to back up your claim that you wouldn't have done better with 160 str than 140.

I posted my leveling speeds, which was 1 level an hour. A small DPS increase wouldn't have significantly reduced this number. Is it hard data? No, but people are keen on bringing in their personal experiences. There is no reason why I cannot do the same. I would be happy to be proven wrong if someone can bring more concrete data than personal experience.

The posters who are claiming that +20 STR will give a significant boost to DPS need to provide evidence for their claim. Thus far they have not. I am the only person providing counter evidence against that claim, as well as evidence supporting my claim.

Furthermore, your unsupported argument that '140 str squelches any AC xp mobs have, so adding strength wouldn't accomplish anything' actually undermines your demonstration of mr turtle's strength derived dps increase. This happens through two ways - 1) you admit it is possible to cap out the attack/mitigation roll and in these situations any change in dps would be marginal (basically improvements to the max hit / di multiplier). 2) therefore there are situations where attack isn't swamping mitigation and str derived attack improvements will provide more dps. I'll try get back to you in a month or so. If you could be so kind, do remind me.

I didn't say anything about 140 STR squelching AC lol. I said that the DPS increase from +20 STR based on the data thus far is not significant enough for players to notice. Please read more carefully and stop making these wild claims about what other people say. It just causes more confusion.

Troxx

08-14-2023, 09:46 AM

I am not sure where you are getting this idea of doing Greenmist and banking it. Nobody suggested that.

Can Autistic People Understand Sarcasm?

People with autism usually have a hard time understanding sarcasm and may take sarcastic speech literally.

This makes it challenging for them to understand when people are joking and teasing.

https://www.crossrivertherapy.com/autism/do-autistic-people-understand-sarcasm

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 09:49 AM

Can Autistic People Understand Sarcasm?

People with autism usually have a hard time understanding sarcasm and may take sarcastic speech literally.

This makes it challenging for them to understand when people are joking and teasing.

In a study with a group of 19 children on the autism spectrum, the children with autism were just as able to detect sarcasm as the children without these disorders.

The autistic children made their choices more quickly, and took on average 3.56 seconds o put the shark in the answer box, compared with 4.34 seconds for the non-autistic individuals.

This study shows that children with autism can sometimes understand sarcastic speech, possibly because the examples of sarcasm that were used in the experiment were simple, and the children didn't ned to explain themselves in words to show their understanding.

You have an unhealthy obsession with autism. Even if I was autistic, it is a bad look for YOU. A 40 year old doctor desperately trying to dunk on autistic people (and still failing) lol. Yikes.

In all of your ramblings, you forgot the core issue: emotions and context are lost in text messages.

I am not a mind reader, and cannot tell if he is being serious or sarcastic via text alone. I cannot see his face, tone of voice, etc. You generally need to make it clear that was your intent, that is why /sarcasm exists, for example.

Troxx

08-14-2023, 09:52 AM

I am not a mind reader, and cannot tell if he is being serious or sarcastic via text alone. I cannot see his face, tone of voice, etc. You generally need to make it clear that was your intent, that is why /sarcasm exists, for example.

The sarcasm in his post was so obvious it was practically glowing.

I’m sorry it went over your head but …

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NippyNegativeFieldspaniel-size_restricted.gif

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 09:54 AM

The sarcasm in his post was so obvious it was practically glowing.

I’m sorry it went over your head but …

Or you misread it, and he wasn't being sarcastic. Both are valid possibilities. Your assumption is irrelevant until Jimjam tells us which one it is. If he was being sarcastic, he did a bad job at showing it via text message.

Troxx

08-14-2023, 09:55 AM

Or you misread it, and he wasn't being sarcastic. Both are valid possibilities. Your assumption is irrelevant until Jimjam tells us which one it is. If he was being sarcastic, he did a bad job at showing it via text message.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/W5kzCtxr5PqgcAWyny/200w.gif?cid=82a1493b5bxxixyle5vd64g9iuzdgisk7ajta q9j3rjkhmm3&ep=v1_gifs_related&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 10:08 AM

You can tell Troxx has utterly lost the debate when he reverts to posting gifs and trying to find autistic people to dunk on. It is really sad.

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 10:25 AM

Troxx

08-14-2023, 10:28 AM

Jimjam, the joke went completely over his head. Individuals with autism tend to take things quite literally.

(I appreciated the joke fwiw)

Gloomlord

08-14-2023, 10:39 AM

Jimjam, the joke went completely over his head. Individuals with autism tend to take things quite literally.

(I appreciated the joke fwiw)

Maybe it's not that he's autistic, but rather just an attention seeking manchild who wants to be the cleverest and coolest person in the room?

He basically exposes himself when he says ridiculous things like "I do not ignore people because they can redeem themselves". That's not autism -- that's just arrogant and pathetic.

But you're right to mock him, though. He needs a serious wakeup call.

Toxigen

08-14-2023, 10:39 AM

https://i.imgur.com/BshOG8z.jpg

Crede

08-14-2023, 10:45 AM

I actually did an ogre sk twink build once and put points into str. It was a glorious feeling capping strength naturally. I wasn’t just oozing with strength either I barely hit the cap but gave me the flexibility to prioritize other stats at that point.

People really need to know capping str without buffs is no cakewalk until you really start getting seriously geared. My troll has some casual raid gear and still only about 220 strength unbuffed.

It really is the greatest starting stat.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 10:49 AM

Now i’m confused. Were you not being sarcastic or facetious when you brought up +60 strength ogres as a choice in a greenmist thread? Throwing away 60 str in an ambition to have a green mist isn’t the same as swapping 20 str for int/sta. we seem to agree the ogre’s 60 str isn’t an option so not a consideration for green mist. 20 int/str/sta is an option and is literally the crux of the thread.

You may as well have pointed out that yes, sk can greenmist, but op would have torpor with shaman. It is so off topic it comes across as a joke (which I was trying to lean in to, sorry if you weren’t joking about weighting up ogre in the greenmist thread).

Why would you assume sarcasm in text without cause? I was not being sarcastic, nor was there anything to indicate that I was. If I was being sarcastic, I would say /sarcasm, to make it clear. Please assume I am not being sarcastic normally.

yes, im aware of the inate racial stat bonuses ogres and trolls have but Im a man of fun and lore and I really want to experience the green mist quest :)

OP brought up Ogres and Trolls, so it is not off topic at all. He said he was fine with losing the innate racial stat bonuses. I simply pointed that out.

You are trying too hard to read things that aren't there, and I encourage you to take a step back and stop doing that. It just confuses other posters.

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 10:51 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 11:00 AM

People really need to know capping str without buffs is no cakewalk until you really start getting seriously geared. My troll has some casual raid gear and still only about 220 strength unbuffed.

It really is the greatest starting stat.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

Please stop trying to tell people STR is hard to cap. It doesn't help other people. You can get +235 STR with buffs. 100+ STR with multiple combinations of buffs. It is also easy to get a lot of STR with EC gear. Having 160 STR vs. 180 STR while leveling is really not a big deal. If it was, everybody would suggest picking only high STR races for melee classes.

Sta if you’re just grouping/raiding.
Int if ya wanna min max.
dex for casual greenmist procs.

Int will serve you the best overall imo.

You are simply going along with the trolls. You have done this in the past. I notice you didn't mention STR at all in your first post.

Troxx

08-14-2023, 11:10 AM

Maybe it's not that he's autistic, but rather just an attention seeking manchild who wants to be the cleverest and coolest person in the room?

He basically exposes himself when he says ridiculous things like "I do not ignore people because they can redeem themselves". That's not autism -- that's just arrogant and pathetic.

But you're right to mock him, though. He needs a serious wakeup call.

Having autism and being an asshole are not mutually exclusive.

He is clearly intelligent but his apparent inability to think abstractly gets in the way of meaningful discourse. Toss in a pinch of narcissism and it’s a pretty ugly combination. Pretty sure if he sat himself down in front of a neuropsychologist he would walk away with a diagnosis of level 1 (high functioning) autism with mildly above average intelligence and impairments in social functioning skills and abstract reasoning.

Crede

08-14-2023, 11:16 AM

You’ll be sorry once a 60 shaman starts following you around spamming ME/Focus.

These days i dump str on almost all my toons. Even int casters. Gotta carry max cracked staffs!

Oh, I quit that SK in the 30s. It's a fun class to try diff builds with, because they are so bad in the raid scene I don't feel bad abandoning them early on.

I like the STR idea though on casters too, my mage is constantly encumbered, I wish I did 25 str/5 int instead of the alternative.

Gloomlord

08-14-2023, 11:19 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 11:21 AM

Having autism and being an asshole are not mutually exclusive.

He is clearly intelligent but his apparent inability to think abstractly gets in the way of meaningful discourse. Toss in a pinch of narcissism and it’s a pretty ugly combination. Pretty sure if he sat himself down in front of a neuropsychologist he would walk away with a diagnosis of level 1 (high functioning) autism with mildly above average intelligence and impairments in social functioning skills and abstract reasoning.

You have an unhealthy obsession with tryng to find autistic people so you can make fun of them. It is a really bad look. Why do you think this makes you look good, or proves you are correct? It does neither.

Gloomlord

08-14-2023, 11:23 AM

Having autism and being an asshole are not mutually exclusive.

I mean that's true. I just think it's irrelevant if he does have it, because clearly that isn't the psychological flaw we should be mocking and condemning him for.

Troxx

08-14-2023, 11:27 AM

Why do you think this makes you look good, or proves you are correct? It does neither.

Sugar-bear, it just helps us understand you better.

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 11:33 AM

My personal opinion here is that I would put it into STA, unless you're going Dark Elf and Iksar perhaps.

Putting it into INT is a waste, though. An SK, through the overwhelming majority of its playtime, does not live or die because they didn't strive to max out INT and mana. Makes a bit more sense for a Paladin to put points into WIS by comparison, since they make more extensive use of their mana by healing.

I'd honestly think putting the points into DEX would be less of a waste.

You can raise dex by over 370 with buffs so this is a waste. :o

After some consideration I have decided the best stat is int so you can shame shamans for not having their PE hammer when you try to grasp those last few points of sta you are missing while raid buffed.

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 11:45 AM

.Debuffs are much more dangerous for your other buffs, not STR buffs. Losing haste is a much bigger deal for your DPS. If someone needs a STR buff to run back to a vendor, it is unlikely they are getting dispelled.

You can’t put starting stats into haste. Kinda irrelevant to the discussion.

Losing str to debuff is also about tanking.

Incapacitate removes maybe 50 str from removing a buff, removes 50 for the debuff, lowers agi by 50 too.

If you are overweight by 20 before this spell lands you’ll be fucked and your avoidance is wrecked (not the end of the world if a mage cast DS on you!). Likely barely move too (even worse if a shaman helpfully(!) tosses a torpor).

By stating and gearing strength you aren’t relying on that 50 buff str so incapacitate doesn’t hit anywhere near as bad.

Spending too long in solb/kc/seb is a big part of why i like str. I’ve grown to hate the incapacitate/cripple line on toons relying on str buffs.

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 11:47 AM

I didn't say anything about 140 STR squelching AC lol. I said that the DPS increase from +20 STR based on the data thus far is not significant enough for players to notice. Please read more carefully and stop making these wild claims about what other people say. It just causes more confusion.

If str isn’t adding determinable improvements then surely that means you’ve soft capped it for that mob’s mitigation? It is the same thing.

Edit: also i bet int wouldn’t have a determinable differnce (you know, if your iksar was a greenmist sk).

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 11:48 AM

If str isn’t adding determinable improvements then surely that means you’ve soft capped it for that mob’s mitigation? It is the same thing.

Can you show the formula you are using to make this assumption? If not, you are just guessing at the mechanics.

If you know the mechanics so well, it should be trival to provide the formulas and plug in the data from the logs + videos I provided here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 11:52 AM

Install gamparse and look at hit distribution patterns. Look up old steel warrior threads (if they still exist) by yoda iirc.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 11:53 AM

Install gamparse and look at hit distribution patterns. Look up old steel warrior threads (if they still exist) by yoda iirc.

No. You need to show us why you keep insisting you are right, when you have no evidence to back it up. You cannot ask other people to provide evidence for your own claims.

If you think you know the formulas so well, please provide them and plug in the data from my previous post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

Troxx

08-14-2023, 12:10 PM

Install gamparse and look at hit distribution patterns. Look up old steel warrior threads (if they still exist) by yoda iirc.

If and when you find those old thesteelwarrior threads - I’m Bedavir. Yoda and I did some pretty epic investigations into hp vs ac. I was fairly active on the SK forums alongside Brael as well.

To my knowledge, TSW website no longer exists. RIP

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 12:16 PM

Can you show the formula you are using to make this assumption? If not, you are just guessing at the mechanics.

If you know the mechanics so well, it should be trival to provide the formulas and plug in the data from the logs + videos I provided here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

Yes, I am guessing at mechanics.

Neither recognising a bell shape on a graph nor understanding that ac / attack weight the damage roll should mean it should be trivial to provide formulas. That seems outlandish. It may be trivial for you, but not me.

I’m a bit confused what you are asking tbh. On one hand you are saying adding str would do nothing determinable on the other hand you’re disagreeing you’ve hit a soft cap for that mob. How are the two different? Also, bringing back to the conversation would the equivalent int made a more apparent difference? Lets not forget monks have many influences on their dps which make it far better than Sks, so using monks to demonstrate how little value starting str has over int is already a but of a stretch imo.

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 12:17 PM

If and when you find those old thesteelwarrior threads - I’m Bedavir. Yoda and I did some pretty epic investigations into hp vs ac. I was fairly active on the SK forums alongside Brael as well.

To my knowledge, TSW website no longer exists. RIP

A saint posts amongst us.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 12:22 PM

Yes, I am guessing at mechanics.

Neither recognising a bell shape on a graph nor understanding that ac / attack weight the damage roll should mean it should be trivial to provide formulas. That seems outlandish. It may be trivial for you, but not me.

I’m a bit confused what you are asking tbh. On one hand you are saying adding str would do nothing determinable on the other hand you’re disagreeing you’ve hit a soft cap for that mob. How are the two different? Also, bringing back to the conversation would the equivalent int made a more apparent difference? Lets not forget monks have many influences on their dps which make it far better than Sks, so using monks to demonstrate how little value starting str has over int is already a but of a stretch imo.

Thank you for admitting you are guessing. Please stop telling people STR will give a significant DPS boost during the leveling process. You have admitted that you do not know this.

I am willing to review any evidence you are willing to provide, if you choose to do so. If it shows I am wrong, I will be happy to admit I am wrong.

Troxx

08-14-2023, 12:31 PM

https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/durr.gif

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 01:24 PM

Thank you for admitting you are guessing. Please stop telling people STR will give a significant DPS boost during the leveling process. You have admitted that you do not know this.

I am willing to review any evidence you are willing to provide, if you choose to do so. If it shows I am wrong, I will be happy to admit I am wrong.

My guess is based on extensive reading, past parsing, first hand experience and the evidence presented in this thread. Particularly mr turtle.

You’re throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Earlier you demanded i provided full code, arguing it would be trivial. Telling me (again) to shut up cos I didn’t (and won’t) is a bit extreme. I don’t have p99’s server side stuff and a big part of these discussions is to look at the limited evidence and work together to draw conclusions.

JSYK, when people say stats don’t matter they are being hyperbolic. Basically making your point that a dps increase from str will be small (just like the benefit of 20 int imo).

That said, plenty of evidence has been given for the benefit:

1) improvement to max hit formula
2) improvement to di multiplier formula
3) (flawed) parses showing 4.3% increase (I’m looking forward to doing my own investigations).

We’ve discussed the widely held belief that str impacts attack and in turn how likely the damage roll will do well (something you seem to refute?)

We’ve discussed how damage is normally distributed and the curve can be skewed left or right (take a look at your turtle logs)

1-2 alone mean the improvement is statistically significant. If you are using a different definition of significant please define it, and argue against that for how much more significant help 20 int would be.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 01:32 PM

My guess is based on extensive reading, past parsing, first hand experience and the evidence presented in this thread. Particularly mr turtle.

I also have extensive first hand experience, past parsing, and evidence. I am not sure why you can just assume it is greater than my own. You haven't provided any evidence, and are at a disadvantage.

Earlier you demanded i provided full code, arguing it would be trivial. Telling me (again) to shut up cos I didn’t (and won’t) is a bit extreme. I don’t have p99’s server side stuff and a big part of these discussions is to look at the limited evidence and work together to draw conclusions.

Please stop assuming I am telling you to shut up. I didn't say that. I am asking you to stop posting things that you do not know, while trying to pass it off as if it as factual. You do not know that 20 STR will provide enough of a DPS boost to be meaningful to OP.

https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/5ee285613398fb9fcc157520fcc26cfaecf1acae/zone/attack.cpp

The EQEMU source code is available. P99 is based off of this code. I can show you the P99 max damage formula is unchanged when compared to the EQEMU code:

Damage Table for a level 60: { 285 Max Extra, 23 Chance, 65 Minusfactor }

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * 231 Strength - 150) / 3) + 21 ATK (1x AoB item + Firefist) = 350.
2a. 350 - 65 (Minusfactor from damage table) = 285
2b. (285 / 2) + 100 = 242.5
2c. ((46 Weapon Damage * 2) * 242.5) / 100 = 223.1
2d. Add 2h damage table bonus. Total is 37 according to https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1 (this includes the formula 3 + ((60 level - 28) / 3) + ((44 delay - 40) / 3)). 37 + 223.1 = 260.1

My highest damage hit on the turtle parses was 258, so this lines up so far when 260 max damage is what the formula came up with.

You can look through the code and show us where your assumptions are coming from.

JSYK, when people say stats don’t matter they are being hyperbolic. Basically making your point that a dps increase from str will be small (just like the benefit of 20 int imo).

If you are being hyperbolic, new players may not KNOW you are being hyperbolic. Please stop saying "starting stats do not matter", and then proceed to show why STR is going to matter. Either it does, or it doesn't. Pick a side and bring evidence.

3) (flawed) parses showing 4.3% increase (I’m looking forward to doing my own investigations).

You keep denouncing my parses, but refuse to give any of your own. I never said my parses were perfect, but right now they are much better than your admitted guessing. I would love to see your data when it comes out!

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 01:45 PM

bcbrown

08-14-2023, 01:48 PM

DSM can you post your turtle logs? I'd like to do some parsing.

Also, open invitation: if anyone wants to do some strength testing I'm happy to provide a healer.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 01:50 PM

I'm not saying your experience is worse than mine, merely ours are different. We clearly play and gear differently, which produces different results.

By combining our experiences we have a bigger dataset. I in no way meant to demean your experiences, particularly because I've been actually looking at your experiences you've reported and seeing how they match or mismatch my own knowledge and experience.

I never said starting stats don't matter. I was explaining the context of something which you keep getting hung up on, and tbh you seem to be saying it about dumping str.

You keep telling me to stop participating in the discussion, which is the forum equivalent of telling someone to shut up.

Imo the entire point of discussion is to explore and argue ideas, it would not be ideal for people lacking knowledge to take part. In fact, such participance is a great way to have a fresh set of eyes, ask questions and improve knowledge. I mean you don't know the full code of the game, yet keep posting. Should you relent posting just because you don't know the full details of how str impacts the game? I suggest not. You clearly have a lot of knowledge to share and it would be a shame if you weren't to ever post again!

Perhaps I made a mistake to have mirrored your language in the use of the word 'guessing'. I didn't mean guess as 'completely fabricated from nothing'. TBH I feel a little bit like you may have set a trap there by using the word then latching on to it so hard after I repeated it.

For clarity, I meant guess as 'make an inference based on the limited information we all have'.

Edit: i don't mean to denounce your parses - I'm not saying they are worthless, merely acknowledging the limitations. That is normal to do when discussing a dataset. Don't take it as an insult as your parse is very good.

I apologize if I sound mean. That isn't my intent, I simply have to defend myself from trolls. There are multiple people trolling and attacking this thread, so it can sometimes be difficult to determine if you are being sincere or not. Posters like Troxx are certainly not being sincere.

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not telling you to stop participating.

I have not set any traps for anybody. You have simply admitted that you do not have a factual basis upon which to base your current claims. I appreciate that you are willing to admit that. You are doing what most people in this thread cannot, which is awesome!

If you want to bring meaningful discussion to a factual conversation, you need to provide evidence. That is all I am asking. You are confusing people by trying to say "20 STR is going to give you a noticeable boost to DPS". You do not know this by your own admission, and therefore you should not say it in a manner that sounds like it is a fact.

You can say it is your guess and opinion that the DPS boost from 20 STR would be significant. That way people know you are not making a statement of fact. There is nothing wrong with that. Then people can look at the evidence I have provided, and the opinions you have provided, and make a decision. Or even better, you provide evidence proving your claim, so we can all benefit from the knowledge. You need to understand that I would love to be proven wrong. If we can get concrete evidence one way or the other, it will help everybody.

DSM can you post your turtle logs? I'd like to do some parsing.

Also, open invitation: if anyone wants to do some strength testing I'm happy to provide a healer.

They are already posted!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

Links to the logs are in the descriptions of the youtube videos I have provided. The post above links to another earlier post I made which explained the DPS videos. That is where the video are linked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ouLQOBAoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

Here are the video links directly.

bcbrown

08-14-2023, 02:26 PM

Lune

08-14-2023, 02:44 PM

I apologize if I sound mean. That isn't my intent, I simply have to defend myself from trolls. There are multiple people trolling and attacking this thread, so it can sometimes be difficult to determine if you are being sincere or not. Posters like Troxx are certainly not being sincere.

You are putting words in my mouth. I am not telling you to stop participating.

I have not set any traps for anybody. You have simply admitted that you do not have a factual basis upon which to base your current claims. I appreciate that you are willing to admit that. You are doing what most people in this thread cannot, which is awesome!

If you want to bring meaningful discussion to a factual conversation, you need to provide evidence. That is all I am asking. You are confusing people by trying to say "20 STR is going to give you a noticeable boost to DPS". You do not know this by your own admission, and therefore you should not say it in a manner that sounds like it is a fact.

You can say it is your guess and opinion that the DPS boost from 20 STR would be significant. That way people know you are not making a statement of fact. There is nothing wrong with that. Then people can look at the evidence I have provided, and the opinions you have provided, and make a decision. Or even better, you provide evidence proving your claim, so we can all benefit from the knowledge. You need to understand that I would love to be proven wrong. If we can get concrete evidence one way or the other, it will help everybody.

They are already posted!

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300

Links to the logs are in the descriptions of the youtube videos I have provided. The post above links to another earlier post I made which explained the DPS videos. That is where the video are linked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ouLQOBAoE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Py96jk2NflU

Here are the video links directly.

Nobody is trolling, it's more exasperation; having a discussion with you is completely pointless because you do not listen to reason, even in response to several very knowledgeable and articulate people spelling it out for you. That's not to say just because more people believe something it's right, but in this case there are factual logical answers that have been presented that you simply refuse or are incapable of engaging with. You've done for this thread what petroleum companies have done for the consensus on climate change-- distorted the signal to noise ratio in favor of far more poorly supported and discredited hypotheses.

You demand evidence, then reject it for asinine reasons; you present "math" or "facts" and then use them for deeply flawed conclusions, and when those flaws are pointed out to you, you don't engage with the logic, you simply ask for "evidence". It's entirely circular. On a very fundamental level, you clearly have a pathological relationship with systemic thinking. Your inability to actually absorb anything anyone is telling you and argue soundly from premises to conclusions should preclude you from giving people advice. Luckily, by now you have no credibility among anyone here. Unfortunately, any newcomer who finds this thread may perceive the illusion of a lack of consensus with regard to starting stats because of 45 pages of truly braindead attempts at reasoning on behalf of INT.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 02:48 PM

Ah, I didn't know the actual logs were linked from the videos, thanks.

Before I start analysis, I'd like to know what you expect I'll find.

The 20 damage interval thing implies there should be 20 different unique hit values in each log, right? Do you expect a uniform distribution (each roughly equally frequent), a normal distribution (bell curve), or a beta distribution (in this case, a bell curve that's been skewed either higher or lower than usual)? Do you expect the same sort of distribution in both logs?

Do you expect there to be a difference across all 20 unique hit values? If so, do you expect it to be uniform (i.e. max_hit_more_strength - max_hit_less_strength == min_hit_more_strength - min_hit_less strength), or more of an impact at the top or bottom end?

I'll give my own answers before I start parsing.

If you look at https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/5ee285613398fb9fcc157520fcc26cfaecf1acae/zone/attack.cpp , you will see that GetSTR() is only called once in the file, at line 970. That function is describing the formula I posted previously:

1. 225 Offense Skill + ((2 * 231 Strength - 150) / 3) + 21 ATK (1x AoB item + Firefist) = 350.

The final number of 350 is used to determine your max damage roll (before damage cap), and it is used in the mitigation function to determine if your damage should be reduced. Take a look at the Mob::RollD20(int offense, int mitigation) function.

The Offense Skill of my 24 Warrior is 125 at the moment. It might be slightly different on SK's, but not enough to be heavily significant. If my SK was put back at level 24, the formula would look like this:

125 Offense Skill + ((2 * 231 Strength - 150) / 3) + 21 ATK (1x AoB item + Firefist) = 250.

You would need to show that the mitigation formula is going to produce vastly difference results using the 350 and 343.3 (using 211 STR) numbers vs. the 250 and 243.3 (using 211 STR) numbers when fighting a mob of roughly equal level to prove Troxx's theory that the DPS difference would actually increase on a more difficult mob.

Otherwise, you can simply assume that if you do something like 50% less DPS at level 24 compared to level 60, the DPS difference will also simply decrease. The difference between 67 and 70 is 3 DPS, and the difference between 33.5 and 35 DPS is 1.5 DPS. My current data when looking at both the 1H test and the 2H test shows an average difference of 1.5 DPS, so it would actually be more like a 0.75 DPS difference at level 24.

You can math out how much damage that is per hour, assuming you are fighting non-stop. 3600 seconds x 0.75 = 2700 damage. Realistically you are doing much less damage than that because you are not fighting non-stop for an hour straight. Mobs around level 24 have about 800 HP I believe, so its 3 kills per hour at best. It is more likely to be something like 1 extra kill per hour, due to the fact that you will be taking breaks, travelling between mobs, etc.

You demand evidence, then reject it for asinine reasons;

This sums you up perfectly. I have provided evidence. You have not. You reject my evidence for asinine reasons, and then start trolling to try and discredit me and the evidence.

If this was such an easy thing for you to prove, you would have done it long ago, instead of posting things like:

DSM is just clearly not intellectually qualified to be dealing with this.

This is trolling behavior, and you are not helping your side by doing it. Insults provide zero value to the conversation, and do not prove anything.

Lune

08-14-2023, 03:02 PM

^ Not to mention he's already admitted he doesn't care about any DPS increase from +20 STR because STR gear is so easy to get and that provides "enough" DPS. Have fun with that one.

bcbrown

08-14-2023, 03:07 PM

It is more likely to be something like 1 extra kill per hour, due to the fact that you will be taking breaks, travelling between mobs, etc.

Three things:

Thank you for the link to the code, that will be helpful
You didn't answer any of my questions
If my starting stat allocations results in one extra kill per hour, I'd be overjoyed. How many extra kills per hour will 20 int provide?

My own answers:
I'm expecting a uniform distribution of 20 unique hit values on an even-con mob. On a significantly lower-leveled mob, I'd expect the distribution to skew higher. I expect a similar increase across the entire distribution with added strength, and I also expect the distribution to skew very slightly higher, probably well within the realm of statistical noise for a sample of this size.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 03:11 PM

Three things:

Thank you for the link to the code, that will be helpful
You didn't answer any of my questions
If my starting stat allocations results in one extra kill per hour, I'd be overjoyed. How many extra kills per hour will 20 int provide?

My own answers:
I'm expecting a uniform distribution of 20 unique hit values on an even-con mob. On a significantly lower-leveled mob, I'd expect the distribution to skew higher. I expect a similar increase across the entire distribution with added strength, and I also expect the distribution to skew very slightly higher, probably well within the realm of statistical noise for a sample of this size.

1. You are welcome.
2. I provided the formulas so you can plug in the numbers. You can then come back with your findings. That will provide the answers to your questions.
3. You are overvaluing 1 extra kill per hour. On an Iksar without Blood Ember Clickies, a bit of extra mana could save your life if you are trying to maximize kills per hour while minimizing meditation times. You will be getting closer to emptying your mana pool in that case. You can also run into scenarios where you fail FD multiple times, and need to life tap to stay alive while waiting for FD to cooldown. This will drain your mana pool. Not dying from a situation like that can also save you time and give you more kills per hour. You cannot simply assume you are gaining no benefit from INT. Both STR and INT are providing small bonuses that may or may not help, and will not be noticeable most of the time.

Lune

08-14-2023, 03:15 PM

3. You are overestimating 1 extra kill per hour.

lol that was your estimate

Mobs around level 24 have about 800 HP I believe, so its 3 kills per hour at best. It is more likely to be something like 1 extra kill per hour, due to the fact that you will be taking breaks, travelling between mobs, etc.

You can also run into scenarios where you fail FD multiple times, and need to life tap to stay alive while waiting for FD to cooldown. This will drain your mana pool. Not dying from a situation like that can also save you time and give you more kills per hour.

This is such a hilariously bad take. What are the chances you spike your mana from 100 to 0 lifetapping to save your life during FD fails? If sitting there channeling lifetaps from 100 mana to 0 saves your life during chain FD fails 1. you're not even splitting something worth splitting, or 2. You're so bad at FDing through spells you shouldn't be trying to split anyway, just fucking kill it lol. And he weighs this one in a million, totally absurd situation more highly than the 1 kill per hour that he himself estimated.

Seriously, imagine a situation where you burn 100% of your mana on lifetaps while chain FD failing trying to split a room, think about the absurdity and rarity of that.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 03:15 PM

lol that was your estimate

I meant to say he is overvaluing it. I agree my wording was a bit confusing there, thank you for asking me to clarify.

I have edited the post to remove further confusion.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 03:24 PM

This is such a hilariously bad take. What are the chances you spike your mana from 100 to 0 lifetapping to save your life during FD fails? If sitting there channeling lifetaps from 100 mana to 0 saves your life during chain FD fails 1. you're not even splitting something worth splitting, or 2. You're so bad at FDing through spells you shouldn't be trying to split anyway, just fucking kill it lol. And he weighs this one in a million, totally absurd situation more highly than the 1 kill per hour that he himself estimated.

Seriously, imagine a situation where you burn 100% of your mana on lifetaps while chain FD failing trying to split a room, think about the absurdity of that.

When you are soloing, you are not always killing a single mob, meditating back to full, and then killing another mob. You can also kill multiple mobs before you meditate. This means you are not going to be a 100% mana all the time.

I have had FD fail multiple times due to bad RNG on quite a few occasions. FD has a random chance to fail, it is not guaranteed to succeed. You cannot control that via player skill. You are simply making silly assumptions because you want to be right. Remember that I have actually leveled an SK to 60.

Mana is more important to Iksars, because they are the only race that cannot use Blood Ember Clickies. They have less ways to save mana, and thus are more likely to have mana issues.

Lune

08-14-2023, 03:27 PM

When you are soloing, you are not always killing a single mob, meditating back to full, and then killing another mob. You can also kill multiple mobs before you meditate. This means you are not going to be a 100% mana all the time

In which case INT is completely irrelevant.

Mana is more important to Iksars, because they are the only race that cannot use Blood Ember Clickies. They have less ways to save mana, and thus are more likely to have mana issues.

This has little to nothing to do with INT, as iksars have a problem with mana USE; max mana does nothing for that, except for those extremely rare 100-0 situations that everyone tries their best to avoid.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 03:28 PM

In which case INT is completely irrelevant.

You do realize that you can start at 100% mana before you kill multiple mobs, right? You will use that extra mana during the period between killing mobs and meditating.

Lune

08-14-2023, 03:34 PM

You do realize that you can start at 100% mana before you kill multiple mobs, right? You will use that extra mana during the period between killing mobs and meditating.

If you aren't starting a fight with max mana, any additional mana from INT is irrelevant. So that extra mana from INT is doing nothing to help you survive FD fails or any other situation if you aren't 100% mana. You're getting lost again. You can get through more kills before reaching a certain threshold of mana, but by not meditating to full before something difficult, you're squandering the supposed benefits of INT.

When you are soloing, you are not always killing a single mob, meditating back to full, and then killing another mob. You can also kill multiple mobs before you meditate. This means you are not going to be a 100% mana all the time.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 03:43 PM

If you aren't starting a fight with max mana, any additional mana from INT is irrelevant. So that extra mana from INT is doing nothing to help you survive FD fails or any other situation if you aren't 100% mana. You're getting lost again.

Let me put this another way. You seem very fond of trying to find specific scenarios in which you can prove INT does nothing.

I can also provide specific scenarios in which a bit of extra DPS provides nothing. People enjoy the semi-AFK killing of single static respawn mobs.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Travis_Two_Tone according to the wiki he has 875 HP, and respawns every 6 minutes, 40 seconds.

If you are doing 30 DP, you will kill him in 29.1 seconds. This means it takes 429.1 seconds per respawn and kill. 3600 / 429.1 = ~8.4 kills per hour.

If you are doing 31 DP, you will kill him in 28.2 seconds. This means it takes 428.2 seconds per respawn and kill. 3600 / 428.2 = ~8.4 kills per hour.

You would need to kill him for 53 hours straight to get an extra kill lol. This means no breaks in between. You lose your progress if you stop. Extra DPS is not always increasing kills per hour. The 1 kill per hour estimate I gave is assuming you are going balls to the wall in terms of your killing process.

Jimjam

08-14-2023, 03:47 PM

Lune

08-14-2023, 03:48 PM

Let me put this another way. You seem very fond of trying to find specific scenarios in which you can prove INT does nothing.

I can also provide specific scenarios in which a bit of extra DPS provides nothing. People enjoy the semi-AFK killing of single static respawn mobs.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Travis_Two_Tone according to the wiki he has 875 HP, and respawns every 6 minutes, 40 seconds.

If you are doing 30 DP, you will kill him in 29.1 seconds. This means it takes 429.1 seconds per respawn and kill. 3600 / 429.1 = ~8.4 kills per hour.

If you are doing 31 DP, you will kill him in 28.2 seconds. This means it takes 428.2 seconds per respawn and kill. 3600 / 428.2 = ~8.4 kills per hour.

You would need to kill him for 53 hours straight to get an extra kill lol. Extra DPS is not always increasing kills per hour. The 1 kill per hour estimate I gave is assuming you are going balls to the wall in terms of your killing process.

Change the subject all you want, I have no interest in pursuing these flights of "reasoning" with you, I'm just pointing out flagrant contradictions and botched logic in your own successive posts. Note you did nothing to address what I just said, except handwaving it away with accusations... rather than engaging with the logic.

You seem very fond of trying to find specific scenarios in which you can prove INT does nothing.

That was your response to my post and my logic/knowledge, followed by you engaging in exactly what you falsely accuse me of. Note, what I pointed out is not a "specific scenario", it's a fundamental quality of the game.

Troxx

08-14-2023, 03:51 PM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-18-2014/A8bevo.gif

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 03:51 PM

Change the subject all you want, I have no interest in pursuing these flights of "reasoning" with you, I'm just pointing out flagrant contradictions and botched logic in your own successive posts. Note you did nothing to address what I just said, except handwaving it away with accusations... rather than engaging with the logic.

I am not changing the subject. I am providing an example of extra DPS from 20 STR doing nothing. You were providing examples of where INT was doing nothing, so I am not sure why you think you are the only one able to do it lol. DPS has diminishing returns in many different scenarios, it is also a fundamental quality of the game.

Your logic is flawed, because you are using specific examples of where INT may not do anything to proclaim that INT will always do nothing. My DPS example disproves your flawed logic easily, and stays on topic.

I am using math and logic to support my position, as well as personal experience from actually leveling an SK on P99 from 1-60.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-18-2014/A8bevo.gif

Glad to see someone remembers Rejected! Great short film.

bcbrown

08-14-2023, 04:11 PM

I provided the formulas so you can plug in the numbers. You can then come back with your findings. That will provide the answers to your questions.

Jeez dude, your attitude here is incredibly unhelpful. Proper data analysis requires starting with a hypothesis before running any calculations. And, like, I get it, you're being attacked and ganged up on, and it's human to feel defensive about that. But I had hoped I had demonstrated enough good faith that you would be willing to enage with me.

When I started preliminary analysis, I was expecting results consistent with the "damage interval" concept, which would involve 20 unique damage values, where the distribution across those values is a function of the relative attack and defense values. Out of ~240 hits, I found ~110 unique values, so my mental model is incorrect. I could type up a lot more about why it's important to do preliminary hypothesis checking like this, but I know you'd just disregard it.

Sorry bud, but I'm done with you.

The 20 di thing looks to get a bit more complicated as you get higher level / higher str.

I'd really appreciate it if you (or anyone else) can explain the 20 di thing. The EQEmu code (https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/master/zone/attack.cpp#L1040-L1043) seems to use it:
auto roll = RollD20(hit.offense, mitigation);
hit.damage_done = max(roll * hit.base_damage + 0.5), 1);

I looked around and didn't see anything else in the codebase that would account for what I found in the log I examined. Would you expect exactly 20 unique hit values?

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 04:20 PM

Jeez dude, your attitude here is incredibly unhelpful. Proper data analysis requires starting with a hypothesis before running any calculations. And, like, I get it, you're being attacked and ganged up on, and it's human to feel defensive about that. But I had hoped I had demonstrated enough good faith that you would be willing to enage with me.

When I started preliminary analysis, I was expecting results consistent with the "damage interval" concept, which would involve 20 unique damage values, where the distribution across those values is a function of the relative attack and defense values. Out of ~240 hits, I found ~110 unique values, so my mental model is incorrect. I could type up a lot more about why it's important to do preliminary hypothesis checking like this, but I know you'd just disregard it.

Sorry bud, but I'm done with you.

You are taking this wildly out of context. I am simply saying you can use the formulas and data to see what is going on. There is no need to add extra complexity and confusion at this point by answering your questions.

If you are doing this in good faith, you would not assume I am being mean to you in some manner. I honestly am not.

Sizar

08-14-2023, 04:21 PM

A whole lot of random opinions and insults. Nobody has shown that the STR is giving enough DPS to matter. Therefore it remains unfounded opinions.

That is your guys problem. Lots of assumtions and insults lol.

He keeps saying people have insulted him, including me. All I said was he seems like the type of guy who needs to get the last word in even when he is wrong...that is an insult? Or stating an opinion, that is most likely correct

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 04:26 PM

He keeps saying people have insulted him, including me. All I said was he seems like the type of guy who needs to get the last word in even when he is wrong...that is an insult? Or stating an opinion, that is most likely correct

Why do you feel the need to state a completely unfounded opinion like this at all in a thead about game mechanics? It does nothing to help the conversation, and it implies I am wrong with no evidence to support that claim.

Prove I am wrong if you think I am. At worst this looks like an insult, at best you are posting off topic nonsense.

Sizar

08-14-2023, 04:32 PM

Have you let the thread die yet?

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 04:37 PM

Have you let the thread die yet?

You do understand that other people are posting things too, right? You yourself just kept the thread alive a little longer lol.

If you were being consistent with your views, you would post the same "opinion" about those posters as well. Troxx loves to post silly gifs after everybody else.

It is curious that you never mention anyone else. Why is that?

Sounds like "rules for thee but not for me".

Sizar

08-14-2023, 04:42 PM

Is that your last word or is there another one coming?

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 04:44 PM

Is that your last word or is there another one coming?

Thanks for proving my point. You wouldn't be trolling like this if you were being honest and consistent. You are trying to get the last word here.

You would be calling out other posters too.

Attempting to discredit someone when you cannot prove them wrong is not a valid form of debate.

Sizar

08-14-2023, 04:48 PM

My 1-60 leveling process and now raiding has proven you wrong enough for me. 20 INT is cool and fine but not the best use. You refuse to believe this when many others are disagreeing with you and that is fine.

Proving you wrong in these forums would require a lot of effort on my part and I am a naturally lazy person. The funniest thing is how you continue to post over and over, saying the same thing. You have to realize that people probably don't care enough to take the effort to prove you wrong mathematically. You aren't worth it my friend

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 04:54 PM

My 1-60 leveling process and now raiding has proven you wrong enough for me. 20 INT is cool and fine but not the best use. You refuse to believe this when many others are disagreeing with you and that is fine.

There is nothing wrong with enjoying your +20 STR. I am glad to hear you are happy with your choice. That doesn't mean it is the objectively correct choice for the most people. Nor does it mean I am trying to say you are wrong for putting 20 points into STR. It is always great to see people enjoying the game. Starting stats will not impact most people in a significant way. That is one nice thing about this game. That doesn't mean some people aren't interested in knowing the objective truth based on the math and rules. Let them get the correct answer so they can enjoy the game too.

Proving you wrong in these forums would require a lot of effort on my part and I am a naturally lazy person. The funniest thing is how you continue to post over and over, saying the same thing. You have to realize that people probably don't care enough to take the effort to prove you wrong mathematically. You aren't worth it my friend

I do understand people are often times too lazy to provide evidence. That doesn't make them correct, and it doesn't make it right for them to keep posting opinions and trying to pass them off as fact. That is simply causing confusion for people seeking answers.

If I am not worth it, you can stop trying to get the last word at any time:)

Sizar

08-14-2023, 05:01 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 05:10 PM

Last word here again...

Let's say that that 20str increases dps by 4%, I think someone posted something to the fact much earlier. Let us then say that the 20int increases your total mana pool...at 59 or 60, but like 10%. I think my mana pool is somewhere in the 1900-2100 range depending on gear I currently have equipped.

Hypothetical...you are starting a solo xp grind session for 1 hour. So with that +20st for 1 hour you are 4% more effective. Killing mobs that much faster while taking that much less damage cause things die fast. OR with your + like 200 mana or whatever , for only that 1st mob, maybe into the 2nd mob, you cast an extra spell. 1 time brother. We all know you do not med up to 100% health and mana inbetween engagements. Again someone posted earlier that it is more likely that you have between 20-90% mana at all times. You are never at 100% mana. Meaning that 20int let you cast 1 extra lifetap for 1 HOUR over just being blanket 4% better at your job

Seems simple to me

DPS does have diminishing returns in a lot of scenarios. Let me give you an example I posted earlier:

People enjoy the semi-AFK killing of single static respawn mobs.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Travis_Two_Tone according to the wiki he has 875 HP, and respawns every 6 minutes, 40 seconds.

If you are doing 30 DP, you will kill him in 29.1 seconds. This means it takes 429.1 seconds per respawn and kill. 3600 / 429.1 = ~8.4 kills per hour.

If you are doing 31 DP, you will kill him in 28.2 seconds. This means it takes 428.2 seconds per respawn and kill. 3600 / 428.2 = ~8.4 kills per hour.

You would need to kill him for 53 hours straight to get an extra kill lol. This means no breaks in between. You lose your progress if you stop. Extra DPS is not always increasing kills per hour. The 1 kill per hour estimate I gave earlier is assuming you are going balls to the wall in terms of your killing process.

You are assuming every player is going to be XPing in the most efficient way possible, and thus maximizing their DPS at all times. It is a bit silly to make the claim that this DPS difference is going to be noticeable for most players, who are probably not XPing at maximum efficiency all the time.

Max mana can save your life. I have had situations where I ran out of mana, and needed to use my Blood Ember Greaves as manaless FD. Since Iksars cannot do that, they will find extra mana useful.

Sizar

08-14-2023, 05:20 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 05:24 PM

You are curving the original question into something totally different though. I think for your example of running out of mana having more mana etc, before that even creeps up you should be a decent enough player to realize when you are in over your head before it gets to a point that you have no mana or low hp and run away or fd earlier. Sure these situations can happen organically (like getting an add when you are half way thru killing the 1st, and you have to decide to either bail or fd, or stick it out in a tough fight)

I think having the option of more mana for a 1 of fight with say a named mob with fat loot, or an oh shit situation like I mentioned here is far less appealing than just flat out being better 99% of the time.

I am not "curving the original question".

We are discussing SK starting stats. That is the title of the thread. This means we are comparing the merit of putting your points into each stat.

You can give examples where INT is not helping you, and I can give examples where STR (and extra DPS) is not helping you.

This is very straightforward. I have provided examples where INT will help you, and I have actually experienced them.

You need to provide more than "INT will not always help you" as your justification for picking STR. I can also say "STR will not always help you", and be factually correct.

Sizar

08-14-2023, 05:49 PM

My bad, I thought we were discussing mating rituals of the earthbound human. Thank you for reminding me what the true point of the discussion is about.

Point is, your situations of having more INT and it being useful / saving your life will creep up FAR, and i meant like 100-1 less often than just being a 4% better killer. If it comes up much more often than that than it means you need to adjust your leveling strategy or you are just a plain bad player.

***DSM replies with "I am insulting him calling him a bad player"***

Maybe at this point, that is what is factually correct in this thread all along.

End thread for me, will continue to read your "get the last word in" replies to others though

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 05:57 PM

Troxx

08-14-2023, 06:08 PM

Is this the newest epic DSM meltdown thread or is there a newer one? Anyone know? It's hard to keep track.

I think this is his only current tantrum.

They happen pretty often though across lots of different sub forums.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 06:10 PM

I think this is his only current tantrum.

They happen pretty often though across lots of different sub forums.

The issue is posters like yourself. You are throwing the tantrum and trolling. You are so afraid of possibly being wrong that you think it is a good idea to make fun of people you think are autistic. Truly reprehensible behavior.

Troxx

08-14-2023, 07:12 PM

Only 400 more pages to go fellas!

Duik

08-14-2023, 07:34 PM

Im in.
Lets fuck every

"Hey guys, I'm a newb p99er what's the best combo of stats/equipè/technique for a [insert class/race] plz thnx just general info not gonna raid or twink?"

Im thinkin 700 pages of mostly off topic rambling about what a torpor sham can solo with fungi/manastone.
How a monk can be overweight and function and lastly, tell everyone to stop trolling and only post factual facts with fact based facts to backup those factual facts.
It's just math guys.

Keebz

08-14-2023, 09:24 PM

I don't have any hard proof, but I have a growing suspicion DSM is Gregg Turkington workshopping a new character.

Nycon43

08-14-2023, 10:09 PM

I'm pretty sure this is all an elaborate troll job by DSM. Take the stance of the know-it-all forum warrior and just argue people to death for some lulz.

Ripqozko

08-14-2023, 10:16 PM

I'm pretty sure this is all an elaborate troll job by DSM. Take the stance of the know-it-all forum warrior and just argue people to death for some lulz.

its got to be, several folks have tried to have a conversation and it just wont exist with him. this could be a great resource instead of spamming show me the facts over and over again while telling everyone they are wrong.

Vexenu

08-14-2023, 10:47 PM

Notice how DSM keeps shifting the goal posts. He says that STR is useless because the extra DPS is useless, then if you point out that STR also brings irrefutable out of combat benefits via increased loot/coin carrying capacity, he says that's irrelevant because his massively twinked Monk gained one level per hour (try to follow that logic in a thread about SKs).

There is nothing approaching a rational, honest argument from him. He just endlessly shifts the goalposts and prattles on about how his points are backed by evidence, but has yet to present a shred of evidence that INT actually provides tangible benefits in-game. All experienced players understand that max mana pool (especially on a hybrid) is relatively unimportant, because your mana will constantly be hovering around the middle of the bar anyway. The benefits of STR, however marginal they be, thus necessarily outweigh INT, given that while STR's minor benefits are self-evident and irrefutable, INT's benefits cannot even be properly measured or accounted for.

DSM, please provide actual evidence that extra INT returns REAL VALUE to the player in-game. You have done nothing but make baseless claims about how being able to cast an extra FD might save your life. But this is entirely theoretical. I can just as easily say that extra STR will theoretically save your life if you were in a close fight and already OOM and managed to kill the mob you were fighting with 10 hp left, because your damage was just a little higher thanks to added STR. But both of these scenarios are EXTREME edge cases that almost never happen to good players, which means that the minor but clear and irrefutable benefits of STR necessarily eclipse the entirely theoretical benefits of INT.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 10:58 PM

Notice how DSM keeps shifting the goal posts.

You have yet to show one goalpost moved. I have been consistent. You don't understand what this means.

He says that STR is useless because the extra DPS is useless, then if you point out that STR also brings irrefutable out of combat benefits via increased loot/coin carrying capacity, he says that's irrelevant because his massively twinked Monk gained one level per hour (try to follow that logic in a thread about SKs).

I've leveled two melee characters, one recently. I didn't need 200+ STR to carry loot and coin. I picked up everything on my Monk too. I am not sure why this is so difficult to believe or understand.

There is nothing approaching a rational, honest argument from him. He just endlessly shifts the goalposts and prattles on about how his points are backed by evidence, but has yet to present a shred of evidence that INT actually provides tangible benefits in-game. All experienced players understand that max mana pool (especially on a hybrid) is relatively unimportant, because your mana will constantly be hovering around the middle of the bar anyway. The benefits of STR, however marginal they be, thus necessarily outweigh INT, given that while STR's minor benefits are self-evident and irrefutable, INT's benefits cannot even be properly measured or accounted for.

I am using evidence and in game formulas, the definition of rational and honest. The only dishonestly here is your attempt to discredit me by claiming I moved goalposts that you made up.

DSM, please provide actual evidence that extra INT returns REAL VALUE to the player in-game. You have done nothing but make baseless claims about how being able to cast an extra FD might save your life. But this is entirely theoretical. I can just as easily say that extra STR will theoretically save your life if you were in a close fight and already OOM and managed to kill the mob you were fighting with 10 hp left, because your damage was just a little higher thanks to added STR. But both of these scenarios are EXTREME edge cases that almost never happen to good players, which means that the minor but clear and irrefutable benefits of STR necessarily eclipse the entirely theoretical benefits of INT.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300 I've already provided plenty of evidence to show why INT is the best choice, and why STR isn't as good as you are claiming.

It is your turn to provide evidence. You cannot even show which goalposts have been moved, so I am not holding my breath.

Vexenu

08-14-2023, 11:06 PM

Goalpost 1 moved: Shifting between talking about how STR contribution to DPS is negligible and unneeded while ignoring irrefutable STR benefits to loot/coin carrying capacity.

Goalpost 2 moved: Repeatedly bringing up your twink Monk in a discussion about an Iksar SK.

Goalpost 3 moved: Repeatedly claiming that you have evidence that INT provides benefits while providing nothing of the sort but theoretical claims about getting off an extra FD. The post you linked contains zero evidence that INT provides value, it's just an argument that STR is easy to cap.

You are a pathologically dishonest individual.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 11:17 PM

Goalpost 1 moved: Shifting between talking about how STR contribution to DPS is negligible and unneeded while ignoring irrefutable STR benefits to loot/coin carrying capacity.

I mentioned carry capacity and DPS plenty of times. You can just look back through the thread. I am not required to mention carry capacity every time someone talks about DPS only. I have said multiple times you do not need 200+ STR to carry stuff, and I myself have leveled 2 melee characters under 200 STR the vast majority of their life cycle. I know this from practical experience. I killed guards with FS weapons a lot as well, so it isn't like I am carrying light stuff.

Goalpost 2 moved: Repeatedly bringing up your twink Monk in a discussion about an Iksar SK.

There is no goalpost here. I am providing a practical example that I have leveled a melee character with 140 STR recently, and the lower STR did not affect my leveling/selling. One level an hour is already very fast. OP didn't specify you cannot use analogies. OP did not say he would not twink his character, either.

If you understand the formula, you would know that there is no difference in how the STR is used in the formula for both SK's and Monks. Remember we are talking about how STR affects DPS. There may be a slight difference in Offense Skill, but that is not going to skew the data in a serious manner as far as I can tell, unless you can show otherwise.

Goalpost 3 moved: Repeatedly claiming that you have evidence that INT provides benefits while providing nothing of the sort but theoretical claims about getting off an extra FD. The post you linked contains zero evidence that INT provides value, it's just an argument that STR is easy to cap.

You are a pathologically dishonest individual.

What are you talking about? How is providing evidence that INT provides value a goalpost? This is just pure nonsense. It is also a fact that more max mana means you can cast more spells. This is simple math.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634277&postcount=300 - This has way more factual evidence than everything you have said in this entire thread. Statistical realities of stat distribution is real evidence of INT being better than STR for starting stats, regardless of whether you believe it or not. STR is much easier to cap, and thus it will benefit you for less time.

Please learn what "moving the goalposts" means, so you can apply it properly next time.

I am using real data, statistics, and game formulas to make my point. The only dishonestly here is you thinking evidence, statistics, and game formulas are dishonest lol.

Ripqozko

08-14-2023, 11:27 PM

DSM is the ben shapiro of p99, yikes

Snaggles

08-14-2023, 11:35 PM

The problem with trolling often is you ruin all credibility you have, and there is no reason for anybody to believe you. You did this to yourself, and now you are reaping the rewards.

This isnt true. Just because someone is sarcastic on the boards doesnt mean they dont have a wealth of knowledge and operate at a very high level in the game. Also, just because they are picking on someone one moment doesnt mean they aren't speaking truth the other.

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy. You discredit the person over the logic to defeat it (or drown it with noise). If you are intellectually honest and the biggest troll posts something actually inciteful the best thing you can do is stop, think, and pay credit where credit is due. That's how you can actually earn respect from others during the moment.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-14-2023, 11:43 PM

This isnt true. Just because someone is sarcastic on the boards doesnt mean they dont have a wealth of knowledge and operate at a very high level in the game. Also, just because they are picking on someone one moment doesnt mean they aren't speaking truth the other.

Ad hominem is a logical fallacy. You discredit the person over the logic to defeat it (or drown it with noise). If you are intellectually honest and the biggest troll posts something actually inciteful the best thing you can do is stop, think, and pay credit where credit is due. That's how you can actually earn respect from others during the moment.

It is true. Constantly lying about other posters as a trolling tactic ruins your credibility. Posters like Troxx, Toxigen, and Ripqozko have lied about myself and other posters on many occasions.

Why should anybody believe a liar?

You are basically giving trolls the benefit of the doubt when they are posting silly gifs and easy to disprove lies.

It is pretty obvious you have a double standard, where you are willing to believe known liars for unknown reasons.

You should be more skeptical of them, and less skeptical of posters who provide actual evidence to back up their claims.

Regardless of how "high level" you think they are, that does not mean they are correct just because they say so.

Snaggles

08-15-2023, 12:21 AM

It is true. Constantly lying about other posters as a trolling tactic ruins your credibility. Posters like Troxx, Toxigen, and Ripqozko have lied about myself and other posters on many occasions.

Why should anybody believe a liar?

Facts are objective. You of all people should know this, if you are what you say you are.

I can sniff out BS from facts. I've been around a bit.

DeathsSilkyMist

08-15-2023, 12:31 AM

Facts are objective. You of all people should know this, if you are what you say you are.

I can sniff out BS from facts. I've been around a bit.

Indeed. Facts are objective. Claiming "+20 STR via starting stats provides significant DPS during the leveling process" without evidence is an opinion, not a fact. It is like telling people +20 STA will give you 500 HP (this is not true). You can quantify the DPS value, as it is based on known mathematical formulas.

If the DPS boost from 20 STR is such a well known fact, it should be easy to prove. Thus far, the majority of posts in this thread are troll posts. This alone should set off your BS meter. They will do anything to avoid providing evidence for their claims. To me, this simply shows they know they may be wrong, and are unwilling to admit it.

I will be more than happy to admit I am wrong if someone can provide evidence.

Snaggles

08-15-2023, 12:39 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

08-15-2023, 12:48 AM

Nobody said "significant" nor did anyone say "500 hps".
Ad hominem to straw man. Whatever it takes to win, I guess.

I will say your Magelo is about 500hps down but mainly due to bad decision making. Not 20 stats at the character create screen.

The 500 HP comment is an example, I didn't claim anybody said it. The DPS formula is a math formula, just like the STA formula. That is my point. There is an objective answer in both formulas, and providing the wrong answer is a problem in both cases. You shouldn't let people say 20 STA gives you 500 HP, nor should you let people inflate the DPS number for STR.

Plenty of people have claimed the DPS will be noticeable. They claimed you will level faster. If you are saying the DPS will not be noticeable and help you level faster, why bring it up as a factor when considering STR?