Want to Start a Rogue and Just want to Make Sure I Understand a Couple Things

[AEH84]

Like the title says, I’ve never played a rogue before and have been doing some research. Can you folks confirm a couple things for me?

1) If im understanding the way haste works, worn haste doesn’t stack. That being the case, there’s no real point in spending a fortune on CoF, Seahorse Belt, etc right? Since Ragebringer would eventually overrule all those anyway? Am I better off with a modest haste item to hold me over like SCHW or FBSS?

2) Regarding weapons, it sounds like high damage in main hand and best ratio in offhand? So something like a Lath in main and a frostbringer or venomous axe in off? What about something like croaking dirk?

3) Lastly, I want to be a gnome. It may not be min max or even good, but I want to be a gnome. That being said, all points into STR or STA? Or split?

Thanks

[Croco]

1) There is still a point to getting as good of a haste item as you can get until you get your epic. From 1-30 you're capped at 50% haste, 31-50 is a 74% cap. So it depends on if you're getting haste buffs cast on you regularly or if you have an Eyepatch of Plunder. Imo a CoF is worth it until you get Ragebringer then just sell it afterwards.

2) A Frozen Shard or Rabid Chokidai Fang in the mainhand is probably your best bet until Ragebringer. Scimitar of the Emerald Dawn is the offhand you want.

3) All points into Stam. You can max Str very easily with cheap rogue gear and buffs.

[Trelaboon]

3) All points into Stam. You can max Str very easily with cheap rogue gear and buffs.

I think this depends on gear. Ultimately, if you’re raid geared, it will be super easy to max, and this would make the most sense. But I’m a Gnome Rogue in very modest gear and having 85 naked strength over 60 naked strength is preferable to me over the 100hp you’d have swapping it for stamina. I think that’s especially true if this is your first character and you won’t be super twinked. Stamina is definitely the better end-game choice, but for filthy casuals like myself, I enjoy having that bit of extra strength so I can swap to resist gear and still keep strength high enough to max with Focus.

[Toxigen]

3) Lastly, I want to be a gnome. It may not be min max or even good, but I want to be a gnome. That being said, all points into STR or STA? Or split?

Thanks

gnome rogue is BiS

[Pint]

Excellent race choice but go str if you're not going all the way

[sajbert]

With primal you will cap str regardless snd probably cap or come close to it with bis-raid gear which almost no one gets. With buffs you should also cap with good but not BIS-gear.

Stamina is thus afaik the way to go even for gnome but it makes no difference really.

Also, gnome is BIS race for anyone who doesn’t have gnome mask.

[Snaggles]

Most casual rogues should go STR. 100hps or maxing Str (attack) without needing focus?

Also OP asks about the class saying never played one and the response is “with Primal”? Lol

1. Go with cheap haste if you plan to group. It won’t matter
2. A seb dirk will be a great offhand forever. At like 1.6k on blue it’s tough to beat
3. Personal choice and fashion > stats. Especially for a rogue. You will likely run Str gear for the most part anyways and should get close to capping with focus even with bad gear. If you have capped Str without focus even better.

[Solist]

Join a raid guild.

Start rogue with a ring10, primal, sell some shit and grab a fungi, yeli neck, horn of hsagra, and go have fun. Primal how super nice too and cheap. Borrow a Salindrite if you have the right friends.

Was fun.

[Toxigen]

Join a raid guild.

Start rogue with a ring10, primal, sell some shit and grab a fungi, yeli neck, horn of hsagra, and go have fun. Primal how super nice too and cheap. Borrow a Salindrite if you have the right friends.

Was fun.

Yeah. I think anyone asking these questions aint gonna be doin that.

Gnome, max STR, cheap haste item, save everything for epic MQ/LR, go join groups and have fun, pretend to be a doctor with a $1500 coffee maker.

[Tnair]

Like the title says, I’ve never played a rogue before and have been doing some research. Can you folks confirm a couple things for me?

1) If im understanding the way haste works, worn haste doesn’t stack. That being the case, there’s no real point in spending a fortune on CoF, Seahorse Belt, etc right? Since Ragebringer would eventually overrule all those anyway? Am I better off with a modest haste item to hold me over like SCHW or FBSS?

2) Regarding weapons, it sounds like high damage in main hand and best ratio in offhand? So something like a Lath in main and a frostbringer or venomous axe in off? What about something like croaking dirk?

3) Lastly, I want to be a gnome. It may not be min max or even good, but I want to be a gnome. That being said, all points into STR or STA? Or split?

Thanks

1) it'll be a minute til you get epic so a cheap haste item is helpful
2) yes. or stat stick offhand (Winters Fury is a popular choice)
3) its not even 100hp, at 56 my rogue gets 3.2hp per stamina. you'd get more utility out of str and then once you are endgame raiding often just swap some str items out for hp/resists ... sta is kinda worthless for rogue. plus 60 str is AWFUL for any amount of time.

[AEH84]

Thanks all, these answers were very helpful.

The one thing I’ll mention regarding the weapons, and I’m not sure most longtime players realize, is apart from budget, availability of a lot of these items is also a pretty limiting factor. For example, the only item mentioned in this thread that I’ve seen for sale in the tunnel, on the general discord, the guild discords, and the sub forum here in the last week is the croaking dirk. I’d snap buy a chokidai fang, frozen shard, or small dragonbone shard. I have about 20k to spend and the best I see available is a croaking dirk and crystalline short sword.

[Snaggles]

Considering rogues with 13/30’s in classic were basically gods a croaking dirk + anything is great. Get a Chokidai fang as well if you do a lot of grouping. Save for the epic because at 46 “game changer” is an understatement.

[Baldwooky]

If I'm not mistaken, starting stamina scales higher than equipment added stamina.
So the gains from stamina at the start are seen more than other stats from equipment might add.

100hp is kinda alot in the end. STR is pretty easily maxxed, even on a gnome.

[Snaggles]

It is and it isn’t. It’s half a wort pot click. I’d take it over agility or dex but seldom does the game come down to that last 100hps unless you’re in a CH chain. If I ever had unmaxed str (outside self buffs) with a melee dps I’d feel gross. There are situations you might have resist gear on that doesn’t have str. So end gear, it doesn’t matter, but for many people it does.

[Croco]

It is and it isn’t. It’s half a wort pot click. I’d take it over agility or dex but seldom does the game come down to that last 100hps unless you’re in a CH chain. If I ever had unmaxed str (outside self buffs) with a melee dps I’d feel gross. There are situations you might have resist gear on that doesn’t have str. So end gear, it doesn’t matter, but for many people it does.

Gearing to max str at the cost of sta in a world where when it really matters you'll have focus anyways is dumb. Dead melee do zero dps. Dump all those points into stam and don't ever look back.

[Snaggles]

Gearing to max str at the cost of sta in a world where when it really matters you'll have focus anyways is dumb. Dead melee do zero dps. Dump all those points into stam and don't ever look back.

Yea but this isn’t an end gear thread. It’s about someone who has some twink money and hasn’t played the class. Much of this game isn’t tracking down that 3rd BiS slow. It’s duos/trios and leveling up while carrying fine steel to vendor. That’s like saying having tash sticks is stupid because you always have an enchanter. Slow proc weapons too.

Besides suspending blood aggro 100hps it doesn’t really matter. If you don’t care at all it will have an effect when you’re 800hp down over another player. That said, my ranger seldom ever dies unless bumping. I’m quick on worts, mystic cloak clicks, and ducking for heals though. On a casual raid level if you are wearing jewelry and not str capped on a rogue it’s worse than lacking 100hps.

[Croco]

Yea but this isn’t an end gear thread. It’s about someone who has some twink money and hasn’t played the class. Much of this game isn’t tracking down that 3rd BiS slow. It’s duos/trios and leveling up while carrying fine steel to vendor. That’s like saying having tash sticks is stupid because you always have an enchanter. Slow proc weapons too.

Besides suspending blood aggro 100hps it doesn’t really matter. If you don’t care at all it will have an effect when you’re 800hp down over another player. That said, my ranger seldom ever dies unless bumping. I’m quick on worts, mystic cloak clicks, and ducking for heals though. On a casual raid level if you are wearing jewelry and not str capped on a rogue it’s worse than lacking 100hps.

I get what you're saying but I don't follow your logic. If being casual means that 100hps doesn't really matter than neither does being str capped. At the very least putting all those points into stamina gives you some leeway to gear more towards str. Starting points are free, most gear that has stamina on it costs a lot more than gear without it. Case in point Crystal Chitin Gauntlets vs Gauntlets of Fiery Might.

So from an endgame and economical standpoint I'd rather put all starting points into stam to make gearing cheaper and more flexible while retaining those hps if I do decide to take the jump into raiding.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I agree that they should put their points into STA. STR is easy to cap in Velious even without BiS gear or a Primal.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Spider_Fur_Collar +07 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haze_Panther_Skullcap +10 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Dark_Scale_Sleeves +10 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Gauntlets_of_Potence +15 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Thick_Banded_Belt +15 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Tribal_War_Mask +07 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Mithril_Greaves +07 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haze_Panther_Boots +08 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haze_Panther_Shoulderpads +07 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Silver_Chitin_Wristband +14 STR for 2x

With these items, which are all purchasable in EC, you can get +100 STR on your gnome. You still have room for CoF and Fungi. With 160 STR you will be capped at 255 with Maniacal Strength + FoS. You get a total of 135 STR from those two buffs, so you will be 40 STR over what these items give you, which means you still have flexibility on gear I showed above, and I didn't even provide an item for all slots.

[Crede]

You'll never notice sta. Unless you are one of those people who says "I can't stand staring at 2.9k hp, I need 3k hp!"

Just go str, you can feel it all the way up, and not having to rely on buffs sitting at max str is a great feeling, which will also allow you to swap in other resist gear to more easily keep max str.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You'll never notice sta. Unless you are one of those people who says "I can't stand staring at 2.9k hp, I need 3k hp!"

Just go str, you can feel it all the way up, and not having to rely on buffs sitting at max str is a great feeling, which will also allow you to swap in other resist gear to more easily keep max str.

You won't really notice the STR either, unless you are starting off with no twink funds. OP has 20k, so they have plenty of money to get enough STR to carry everything. I have a decently twinked Gnome Warrior, total item value in the 20k range, and I have like 140 STR without really trying. Starting stats were put into STA.

If we were talking about a Rogue who is 100% self found with no starting money/items, then you would have a STRONGER argument hehe. Having 60 strength and no gear can be rough in the lower levels.

Min/Max requires you to quantify what your character looks like at level 60, because stats don't give you much in the lower levels. If OP plays his Rogue up to level 30 and gets bored, starting stats wouldn't have mattered anyway. Not saying OP is overly concerned with Min/Max by the sound of it, but if you are worried about stats, you are thinking about the long game.

[Crede]

You won't really notice the STR either, unless you are starting off with no twink funds. OP has 20k, so they have plenty of money to get enough STR to carry everything. I have a decently twinked Gnome Warrior, total item value in the 20k range, and I have like 140 STR without really trying.

If we were talking about a Rogue who is 100% self found with no starting money/items, then you would have a STRONGER argument hehe.

Min/Max is about looking at your character at level 60, because stats don't give you much in the lower levels. If OP plays his Rogue up to level 30 and gets bored, starting stats wouldn't have mattered anyway. Not saying OP is overly concerned with Min/Max by the sound of it, but if you are worried about stats, you are thinking about the long game.

You will notice str more than sta. You will get more max hits, and you will be able to carry more. Str is probably the most noticeable of starting stats. Gnome war can acquire str easier, with dwarven cultural. They also get the tinkering str buff of 30. Not a fair comparison, imo.

OP doesn't seem like he'll ever min max, so str makes more sense. You get the early benefit, and if you do decide to min/max, sta can be capped too, so it's really not a big deal.

I've twinked many chars, done many builds. Hitting max str is not easy without buffs.

[Toxigen]

well guys see you in 100 pages

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You will notice str more than sta. You will get more max hits, and you will be able to carry more. Str is probably the most noticeable of starting stats. Gnome war can acquire str easier, with dwarven cultural. They also get the tinkering str buff of 30. Not a fair comparison, imo.

OP doesn't seem like he'll ever min max, so str makes more sense. You get the early benefit, and if you do decide to min/max, sta can be capped too, so it's really not a big deal.

I've twinked many chars, done many builds. Hitting max str is not easy without buffs.

My Monk at 51 with Epic and good EC gear has 140 Strength. His DPS is fine. You don't need capped STR in the earlier levels to do respectable DPS, especially with the weapon ratios in Velious. The point is simply that STA is harder to cap via equipment and buffs, while STR is easy to cap in EC gear with buffs. My Gnome Warrior wasn't using any of the spell buffs to hit 140 STR. As I showed in this post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3625136&postcount=18 , it's not difficult to find STR pieces that are reasonably priced in EC.

I do agree with you that STR is more important if OP was planning on doing a no twink playthrough. Then I would probably say STR is the better starting stat to put points into.

I've leveled quite a few characters myself, and the reality is mobs level 1-39 are just vastly easier than mobs 40+, especially with twink weapons. By the time you really start needing that STR, you will be high enough level to either get bored and stop playing, or have the cash to make up for any lack of STR you have.

Rogue is group dependent character, so your chances of getting buffed is also higher.

[Baldwooky]

Honestly, if part of your arguement is for STR is based on carrying FS weapons to sell, then you shouldn't be part of this conversation. If your actually even looting FS to sell in the first place then you don't understand effeciency in this game what so ever.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Honestly, if part of your arguement is for STR is based on carrying FS weapons to sell, then you shouldn't be part of this conversation. If your actually even looting FS to sell in the first place then you don't understand effeciency in this game what so ever.

You should loot FS weapons to sell. Not sure what you are talking about here. Making 200pp+ per hour while your XPing and not specifically farming will add up over time. If you spend 100 hours leveling and selling FS weapons, you will have 20K in the bank. That's a good chunk of cash, even for a well-off player.

There are camps where selling FS weapons is fast and easy, such as East Freeport Guards and Kelethin Guards. If you are evil, you can sell in the underground area in East Freeport, which only takes a few minutes and you don't even need to zone. If you are killing Kelethin Guards as a Monk, you can simply sell every time you go back up the elevator, as there are merchants right next to it. You just need to sneak.

Not everybody is power leveling to 60 as fast as possible, if that is what you are referring to. You are correct that getting to 60 faster means you can farm better items that sell for good money sooner, but that doesn't mean everybody is going to follow that specific strategy. From my experience most players do not play in this manner.

[Snaggles]

With Focus…
This is 9 str from capping. You could swap out Coldain’s for Crystal Chitin Gaunts.
With a fungi instead it’s 29 from capping
Without the str of the elements it’s 44
Using BD bracers during HoT raids and such you need 58 to cap

I’d rather cap than ask for Maniacal Strength. Nobody asks a rogues about their hps, everyone wonders wtf is wrong when they look at the parse.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:GnomeRogueTest

[DeathsSilkyMist]

With Focus…
This is 9 str from capping. You could swap out Coldain’s for Crystal Chitin Gaunts.
With a fungi instead it’s 29 from capping
Without the str of the elements it’s 44
Using BD bracers during HoT raids and such you need 58 to cap

I’d rather cap than ask for Maniacal Strength. Nobody asks a rogues about their hps, everyone wonders wtf is wrong when they look at the parse.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:GnomeRogueTest

The Magelo you provided would cap at 255 (259 total) with Focus. Your Rogue is at 192 STR and Focus gives +67. As you say, you can just swap your gloves out for STR gloves if you are wearing a Fungi.

If you need a bit of extra strength due to not having Strength of the Elements, you can simply swap one of your rings for https://wiki.project1999.com/Gem_Encrusted_Ring . Rogues get an extra 100 HP from the 25 points into STA, so you can take off one ring and still have more HP than someone who dumped their starting stats into STR with 2x HP rings. Or get https://wiki.project1999.com/Coldain_Hero%27s_Insignia_Ring and have your cake and eat it too.

I don't see a problem with asking for Maniacal Strength if you need it. I've had plenty of people ask for it.

Your parse will also be bad if you die.

[Snaggles]

I always think of math on riotous health. Good call on Focus.

I don’t see coming to an agreement (that’s fine). I’m always a fan of assuming players will be more casual. BD bracers instead of Beno’s. My main is hundreds of hps down and I seldom die or have a reason to stack hps so generally stack STR and MR. If I didn’t raid I would care even less.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I always think of math on riotous health. Good call on Focus.

I don’t see coming to an agreement (that’s fine). I’m always a fan of assuming players will be more casual. BD bracers instead of Beno’s. My main is hundreds of hps down and I seldom die or have a reason to stack hps so generally stack STR and MR. If I didn’t raid I would care even less.

Yeah as a casual player starting stats aren't going to matter too much either way. As long as OP gets some good weapons and a haste item, a bit of HP or STR isn't going to be noticeable most of the time.

[enjchanter]

I would recommend not making a rogue because it's a useless class that isn't useful at 60

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would recommend not making a rogue because it's a useless class that isn't useful at 60

They are a great raiding class, and a great group class. They have high consistent DPS without worrying about resists or pet mechanics.

But they are quite specialized, which means they are not for everybody.

[enjchanter]

They can't solo and they can't farm plat outside of selling raid droppables

[Baldwooky]

Selling FS while your leveling if its convenient sure.. but leaving an area aka any dungeons or groups to sell just impedes your progress. Which if you're in an area that can easily sell to merchants, you don't need that extra str to sell a whopping 2 FS weapons for 11pp more every trip. Its entirely inconsequential.

East freeport or Kelethin Guard camps?
How many rogues you see over there soloing or in groups?

I've played this game since the day it was released in live, wanna know the number of rogues I've seen doing those camps? The number is less than 1.

Dead men do no damage is what it comes down to.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Selling FS while your leveling if its convenient sure.. but leaving an area aka any dungeons or groups to sell just impedes your progress. Which if you're in an area that can easily sell to merchants, you don't need that extra str to sell a whopping 2 FS weapons for 11pp more every trip. Its entirely inconsequential.

East freeport or Kelethin Guard camps?
How many rogues you see over there soloing or in groups?

I've played this game since the day it was released in live, wanna know the number of rogues I've seen doing those camps? The number is less than 1.

Dead men do no damage is what it comes down to.

I wasn't specifically saying Rogues do those camps. You said it was never a good idea to sell FS weapons. Obviously you agree there are situations where that isn't the case, which was my point. OP has 20k, so with some weight reduction bags and STR items he will be able to hold quite a few FS weapons if they were in a camp that dropped them. Just hold on to them and sell after the session is done.

[Baldwooky]

Difference a few bags of FS makes is arguable, but it comes down to a very small amount of difference Str makes for selling things as even a criteria to care, thus proving more that Stam is the way to go for probably 75% of all characters.

Even a Str based dps class still finds more value in going Stam at the start if you have the intention of making the "best" toon. Str is super easy and cheap to cap as you pointed out.

[Snaggles]

Selling FS while your leveling if its convenient sure.. but leaving an area aka any dungeons or groups to sell just impedes your progress. Which if you're in an area that can easily sell to merchants, you don't need that extra str to sell a whopping 2 FS weapons for 11pp more every trip. Its entirely inconsequential.

East freeport or Kelethin Guard camps?
How many rogues you see over there soloing or in groups?

I've played this game since the day it was released in live, wanna know the number of rogues I've seen doing those camps? The number is less than 1.

Dead men do no damage is what it comes down to.

Ever been to HK? Rogues solo there…and vendor there…and bank there.

[7thGate]

Str will be by far the most noticeable during the leveling process. You generally won't be tanking or tanking AOEs while leveling unless you're very twinked and soloing. Str does something for you by increasing damage output and carrying capacity. Charisma does a little bit by increasing sell price but is way lower impact, wis or int would marginally improve trade skills other than smithing, dex will improve poison making and fletching skillups, AGI has a tiny AC boost which again, you don't generally use much since you probably don't tank. These are all really low impact by comparison to STR.

Sta will be the best for most characters at 60 who intend to raid at all. You need very strong gear to cap sta without tradeoffs at 60, but everyone who has access to a 60 shaman for buffs will cap STR easily. The extra HP helps with fights with high damage AOEs.

I would go Cha and carry emeralds for Divine Intervention if you're looking at top end BIS stuff, as you cap all physical stats and a 7% increased chance of extending your HP pool by 5k does something where more stats you're already capped on doesn't. This is definitely not the typical opinion, though.

I did a semi-RP split on Jayya with Str/Sta/Cha and don't regret it; I always felt like Rogues should be charismatic with the whole charming rogue archetype. The Str is wasted now, but the Cha and Sta are still doing things. Jayya's heading towards having the gear quality so that only the Cha does stuff, but isn't there yet and probably won't be for a while.

[Toxigen]

3) Lastly, I want to be a gnome. It may not be min max or even good, but I want to be a gnome. That being said, all points into STR or STA? Or split?



No shame in splitting, especially if you're unsure how far you're going to take this char.

If you know 100% you're never going to raid and probably won't dump tons of platinum into gear, just go STR. You'll never notice the lack of STA. You will, however, notice the STR as you level. Bigly.

Even if you go STR and wind up taking the char to the very end game, having less STA is never actually going to make a difference in your guild / group killing a target. Ever. These spergs just jerk themselves off to min/max fantasies but in reality velious was beat in kunark gear. It doesn't matter at all.

[Pint]

Didn't read all this but str is the best leveling stat for melee and the primary stat for rogues other then maybe magic resist. Don't get suckered by a bunch of try hards trying to min/max with plans that'll take you longer to attain then getting 60 will.

[Baldwooky]

No shame in splitting, especially if you're unsure how far you're going to take this char.

If you know 100% you're never going to raid and probably won't dump tons of platinum into gear, just go STR. You'll never notice the lack of STA. You will, however, notice the STR as you level. Bigly.

Even if you go STR and wind up taking the char to the very end game, having less STA is never actually going to make a difference in your guild / group killing a target. Ever. These spergs just jerk themselves off to min/max fantasies but in reality velious was beat in kunark gear. It doesn't matter at all.

In all fairness there was way more people and way more clerics than are in raids now.
I wouldn't say never. If you have to disengage due to an AoE 30 seconds earlier, thats alot of lost dps, a rogue not doing dps is more worthless than an SK. Its not always about dieing, because chances are youre dead after you nimble most likely anyways.

If you aren't looking to be the best or raid extensively, then it doesn't matter, but stam is by far the hardest and most expensive to max.

[AEH84]

I did not anticipate this level of debate when i made the thread lol

[Toxigen]

I did not anticipate this level of debate when i made the thread lol

Welcome to berg99

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I did not anticipate this level of debate when i made the thread lol

Usually these starting stat threads will end up with a debate. If you care about stats, go STA, since caring about stats is thinking about the long game (getting to 60).

If you don't care about stats, it doesn't really matter what you put your points into, especially if you don't make it to 60.

100 HP or 30 STR is not going to be noticeable on a 20K twinked character in Velious. My Monk with 140 STR DPSes just fine, and you can get to 140 STR easily, even with a Gnome. There are a lot of cheap STR items out there by the time we get to Velious.

Welcome to berg99

Toxigen doesn't like discussions to be had on a forum.

[Crede]

I did not anticipate this level of debate when i made the thread lol

Oh this is nothing. Read this for a fact vs myth debate:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

[Pint]

I did not anticipate this level of debate when i made the thread lol

You took a wrong turn at server selection then haha

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh this is nothing. Read this for a fact vs myth debate:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

It is a good read if you want to see a thread where people were trolling with gifs for 100s of pages because they didn't understand the basic concept of how DPS parsing worked. They thought you couldn't mimic group DPS with a solo DPS parse, but that was proven wrong. I am glad people learned something, and some of the trolls in that thread learned that trolling isn't a very good method for trying to prove something.

This is off-topic though, please stop posting that thread in other threads, especially since it makes you look bad. I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish lol.

[Crede]

Usually these starting stat threads will end up with a debate. If you care about stats, go STA, since caring about stats is thinking about the long game (getting to 60).

If you don't care about stats, it doesn't really matter what you put your points into, especially if you don't make it to 60.

100 HP or 30 STR is not going to be noticeable on a 20K twinked character in Velious. My Monk with 140 STR DPSes just fine, and you can get to 140 STR easily, even with a Gnome. There are a lot of cheap STR items out there by the time we get to Velious. Also there aren’t just groups of shamans on every raid either. It’s likely they will be buffing others and you’re on a waiting list. Why depend on that? Engages happen fast. You won’t always have time to get buffs. Better to take care of yourself first.



Toxigen doesn't like discussions to be had on a forum.

Don’t listen to any of this, OP.

If you actually care about stats and the difference they make then go STR. STA is literally a Magelo stat for rogues. If you’re gonna die, 20 extra sta isn’t going to save you 999999/1000000 times.

More str is a measurable benefit. More atk = more dps. It’s gonna take a long time to cap it without having to beg shamans 24/7 or staying capped with resist gear on a gnome especially who struggle with strength.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don’t listen to any of this, OP.

If you actually care about stats and the difference they make then go STR. STA is literally a Magelo stat for rogues. If you’re gonna die, 20 extra sta isn’t going to save you 999999/1000000 times.

More str is a measurable benefit. More atk = more dps. It’s gonna take a long time to cap it without having to beg shamans 24/7 or staying capped with resist gear on a gnome especially who struggle with strength.

The extra 30 STR isn't going to do much for you either 999999/1000000 times. We are not talking about a run with an untwinked Rogue. I agree with you STR is the better choice if you want to do a run with no starting gear/plat.

Otherwise, with twink gear you are going to DPS just fine with Velious weapons and a haste item. Put your points into STA so you are more effective at high levels, where those starting stats will matter.

[Toxigen]

Oh this is nothing. Read this for a fact vs myth debate:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

lmao 10/10

Crede, I think you've become my favorite poster.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lmao 10/10

Crede, I think you've become my favorite poster.

I am really not sure why you think posting that thread makes you or Crede look good lol. But please stop posting off-topic stuff. It just makes you look even sillier.

[Toxigen]

Put your points into STA so you are more effective at high levels, where those starting stats will matter.

This is complete horseshit. STA realistically still does nothing. Like Crede said, its a Magelo / dick-stroking stat.

If you're a min/max raider you're gonna rock wort pots anyway. They don't scale with HP. Who the fuck cares if you're STA capped? Resist gear and wort pots is all you "need."

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is complete horseshit. STA realistically still does nothing. Like Crede said, its a Magelo / dick-stroking stat.

If you're a min/max raider you're gonna rock wort pots anyway. They don't scale with HP. Who the fuck cares if you're STA capped? Resist gear and wort pots is all you "need."

It's really simple. Your STR will be capped well before endgame with EC gear and buffs on a class that is group dependent (meaning you will probably be buffed).

Why do you want 350 STR when it caps at 255? Put your points into the stat that is harder to cap, which is STA.

Velious era weapons and cheap haste items place your DPS well above what mobs were balanced for levels 1-50 or so anyway. You don't need 255 STR at level 30 lol. If OP makes it to 50+, they will have the ability to buy whatever gear they need.

[Crede]

The extra 30 STR isn't going to do much for you either 999999/1000000 times. We are not talking about a run with an untwinked Rogue. I agree with you STR is the better choice if you want to do a run with no starting gear/plat.

Otherwise, with twink gear you are going to DPS just fine with Velious weapons and a haste item. Put your points into STA so you are more effective at high levels, where those starting stats will matter.

You’re telling rogues to ignore more dps because dps is fine.

So by this mentality let’s just skip that Vulak weapon upgrade too since “dps is just fine”.

You need to go study diminishing returns. All upgrades technically get worse over time from a returns perspective. Better is still better.

[Crede]

It's really simple. Your STR will be capped well before endgame with EC gear and buffs on a class that is group dependent (meaning you will probably be buffed).

Why do you want 350 STR when it caps at 255? Put your points into the stat that is harder to cap, which is STA.

Velious era weapons and cheap haste items place your DPS well above what mobs were balanced for levels 1-50 or so anyway. You don't need 255 STR at level 30 lol. If OP makes it to 50+, they will have the ability to buy whatever gear they need.

Raids happen fast. There aren’t a million shamans just waiting to buff you. It’s dumb. The more self reliant you become, the better everyone gets over time. Vanq learned this the hard way.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You’re telling rogues to ignore more dps because dps is fine.

So by this mentality let’s just skip that Vulak weapon upgrade too since “dps is just fine”.

You need to go study diminishing returns. All upgrades technically get worse over time from a returns perspective. Better is still better.

The problem is you think a small DPS boost from 30 STR is going to be significant during the leveling process on a character with 20k worth of twink items. It really isn't, and you would know that if you have leveled a melee character from 1-50 recently. I leveled my monk a few months ago, and he was getting 1 level an hour with 140 STR. That is already great DPS and leveling speed. Even a gnome can easily hit 140+ STR with EC gear, no buffs.

The reality is the mobs you are killing from levels 1-50 or so are not balanced around the idea of every player having 0.5+ ratio weapons and 21%+ worn haste. Spending your points to get a small boost to DPS during the leveling process is a bad tactic if you are already twinked. The 30 STR gets worse every time you level, because you are more likely to max your STR as you gain more levels. You get more money/items, and buff classes get better buffs. STA on the other hand gets better every time you level.

Raids happen fast. There aren’t a million shamans just waiting to buff you. It’s dumb. The more self reliant you become, the better everyone gets over time. Vanq learned this the hard way.

I've buffed in raids for years. It wasn't a problem lol. People got the buffs they needed, and we bagged a lot of targets every week. It's really not hard to add one extra buff to a person.

[Crede]

lmao 10/10

Crede, I think you've become my favorite poster.

Thanks! I think you made DSM a little jealous, lol.

[7thGate]

This is complete horseshit. STA realistically still does nothing. Like Crede said, its a Magelo / dick-stroking stat.

If you're a min/max raider you're gonna rock wort pots anyway. They don't scale with HP. Who the fuck cares if you're STA capped? Resist gear and wort pots is all you "need."

Str makes a huge amount of sense as a leveling stat. I think you definitely get the most benefit from that.

I have almost never had uncapped str in any kind of group or raid setting since hitting 60, however. The cases where there's no shaman to buff you just doesn't really happen, and once your gear is decent a druid can buff you to cap. I guess maybe after getting a combat rez it makes some difference?

I would say the main benefit to a larger HP pool on a rogue is that you are more likely to survive long enough to realize you have aggro against a hard mob when the tank dies to allow you to hit nimble. Hitting nimble gives the raid 12 seconds to figure out who to roll chain on and how to recover, which can actually matter a lot, but you have to be able to survive the burst damage from getting meleed long enough to realize that you're the one being attacked.

Wort pots don't help with this. Wort pots do make the difference on getting AoEd down though, so its true stamina isn't really that important there other than maybe helping you stay out of low life aggro when fear locked by Sontalak and unable to click or something.

Overall though, the difference is not really that significant one way or another.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Overall though, the difference is not really that significant one way or another.

Agreed.

I always find it amusing that people are happy to tell OP to pick whatever race they want for fashion purposes. Then they turn around and say if you don't put points into starting stat X, you are going to be at a disadvantage while leveling.

If 25-30 STR was going to make a sizeable difference in leveling speed, you would think people would be telling OP to pick Barbarian. You're getting +43 Strength over Gnome before you place your starting stats, and Rogues can change their appearance/size quite easily. With Halfling Mask in the game you can get down to a small size without Shrink Pots or Warder Loot. Plus you get Slam, which can help while soloing.

In reality the STR or STA is not going to make a sizeable difference on a twinked character while leveling. On top of that, trying to min/max the leveling process just for the sake of it doesn't really make sense. If you want to level to 60 quickly, you should care more about how your character will function at 60. The purpose of leveling in that scenario is to get to level 60. If you plan on never reaching level 60, then starting stats aren't going to matter much anyway.

[Crede]

The problem is you think a small DPS boost from 30 STR is going to be significant during the leveling process on a character with 20k worth of twink items. It really isn't, and you would know that if you have leveled a melee character from 1-50 recently. I leveled my monk a few months ago, and he was getting 1 level an hour with 140 STR. That is already great DPS and leveling speed. Even a gnome can easily hit 140+ STR with EC gear, no buffs.

The reality is the mobs you are killing from levels 1-50 or so are not balanced around the idea of every player having 0.5+ ratio weapons and 21%+ worn haste. Spending your points to get a small boost to DPS during the leveling process is a bad tactic if you are already twinked. The 30 STR gets worse every time you level, because you are more likely to max your STR as you gain more levels. You get more money/items, and buff classes get better buffs. STA on the other hand gets better every time you level.

The fact that you think your monks dps is fine with 140 STR honestly means nothing. You're leaving DPS on the table by not having more strength, it's really that simple.

STA may be harder to cap then STR, but that doesn't make it the best min/max stat. If you really want to min/max, then go all into CHA, since eventually STA can be capped as well.

The most noticeable starting stat will be STR. This will lead to more dps, more capacity to carry things, and more ability to swap gear out to stay at max strength. We can measure all of this as well, no matter how big or little the benefit. Putting into STA is essentially hoping you get the rare chance to see the use of it in action, but odds are you are dead before that extra STA mattered anyway.

[Jimjam]

All str to carry more loots until you can permacap it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The fact that you think your monks dps is fine with 140 STR honestly means nothing. You're leaving DPS on the table by not having more strength, it's really that simple.

STA may be harder to cap then STR, but that doesn't make it the best min/max stat. If you really want to min/max, then go all into CHA, since eventually STA can be capped as well.

The most noticeable starting stat will be STR. This will lead to more dps, more capacity to carry things, and more ability to swap gear out to stay at max strength. We can measure all of this as well, no matter how big or little the benefit. Putting into STA is essentially hoping you get the rare chance to see the use of it in action, but odds are you are dead before that extra STA mattered anyway.

I leveled a melee character recently, so the data is still fresh in my mind, and I have logs. I am not sure why you think the leveling speed of one level an hour equates to bad DPS. You also have no counter data which shows how much 30 STR is actually improving your DPS and leveling speeds in the lower levels. Again, min/maxing the leveling process simply for the sake of it is silly. If you want to level fast, you are probably planning on getting to level 60, so you need to think about what is better at 60.

STA being the harder stat to cap while also being a useful stat does make it the best min/max stat, because stat caps exist. Having 350 STR is the same thing as having 255 STR. Having 240 STA instead of 210 STA is giving you an actual return on your investment. Remember that you can only really get +50 STA from buffs via Riotous Health. You are going to pick Avatar over Primal Essence on a Rogue every time. This means you need more +STA pieces to cap STA.

I am not sure how often Rogues are actually Divine Interventioned, but you could argue for CHA if that has become a common tactic. Rogues are generally going to become raid characters, similar to Warriors.

With 20k worth of twink items you will have enough STR to carry items and you will DPS just fine while leveling.

[Crede]

I leveled a melee character recently, so the data is still fresh in my mind, and I have logs. I am not sure why you think the leveling speed of one level an hour equates to bad DPS. You also have no counter data which shows how much 30 STR is actually improving your DPS and leveling speeds in the lower levels.

STA being the harder stat to cap while also being a useful stat does make it the best min/max stat, because stat caps exist. Having 350 STR is the same thing as having 255 STR. Having 240 STA instead of 210 STA is giving you an actual return on your investment. Remember that you can only really get +50 STA from buffs via Riotous Health. You are going to pick Avatar over Primal Essence on a Rogue every time. This means you need more +STA pieces to cap STA.

I am not sure how often Rogues are actually Divine Interventioned, but you could argue for CHA if that has become a common tactic. Rogues are generally going to become raid characters, similar to Warriors.

With 20k worth of twink items you will have enough STR to carry items and you will DPS just fine while leveling.

Where did I say your monks DPS was bad? Still putting words in peoples hands, I see. I could easily prove that 30 STR increases DPS. This is an objective fact, more attack will lead to more max hits, lol. I'm not sure why you're even questioning this. You will kill mobs faster, thus leading to more mobs killed per play session, thus leading to more xp. This really isn't debatable, nor does it have to be proven. It's already been proven. And leveling speed is only a small part of the equation. Making sure you are str capped will ensure the raid is capitalizing on dps, which is critical.

STA being the harder stat to cap while also being a useful stat does not make it the best min/max stat. Min/max would put you in velious gear, capping Stamina. The correct answer here is CHA, and there are uses for it. Occasional DI, vendor prices, etc. You can't actually prove there's any use to capping STA. It's a hypothetical chance that it will save your life with more hp, it would be impossible to quantify the benefit as there are too many variants, so you're left with just magelo flexing, which CHA would be better for. In fact we could actually measure the CHA benefit more effectively too. It will lead to more pp over time selling to vendors.

Unless you can actually prove that more STA has saved X amount of lives resulting in Y extra dps, it's simply a dick measuring magelo stat, as I said many pages ago.

I'm not continuing this debate with you, as you will constantly make things up with napkin math saying ludicrous things like STR doesn't do anything after 140 because my EC geared monk already does fine dps, lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Where did I say your monks DPS was bad? Still putting words in peoples hands, I see.


Here:


The fact that you think your monks dps is fine with 140 STR honestly means nothing.


You seem to be suggesting that the DPS isn't very good, I simply have the opinion it's good. You can clarify what you meant if I am misunderstanding.


I could easily prove that 30 STR increases DPS. This is an objective fact, more attack will lead to more max hits, lol. I'm not sure why you're even questioning this. You will kill mobs faster, thus leading to more mobs killed per play session, thus leading to more xp. This really isn't debatable, nor does it have to be proven. It's already been proven. And leveling speed is only a small part of the equation. Making sure you are str capped will ensure the raid is capitalizing on dps, which is critical.


Nobody said that STR doesn't increase DPS. Nor did anybody say you need to prove that part with data. You are the one suggesting it will be noticeable enough to significantly improve your XP per hour. It is up to you to prove how much of an improvement 30 STR is to your DPS during the leveling process. Min/maxing the leveling process isn't ideal anyway, so I don't know why you care that much about it. If you want to level quickly, you should worry about what your stats mean at level 60. At level 60 you will easily be STR capped with Buffs on a group dependent class (which means you will probably be buffed).


STA being the harder stat to cap while also being a useful stat does not make it the best min/max stat. Min/max would put you in velious gear, capping Stamina. The correct answer here is CHA, and there are uses for it. Occasional DI, vendor prices, etc. You can't actually prove there's any use to capping STA. It's a hypothetical chance that it will save your life with more hp, it would be impossible to quantify the benefit as there are too many variants, so you're left with just magelo flexing, which CHA would be better for. In fact we could actually measure the CHA benefit more effectively too. It will lead to more pp over time selling to vendors.


I said CHA is a viable candidate if Rogues actually get DIed. I simply don't know how often that actually happens. At least you agree STR is no longer the best option here.


Unless you can actually prove that more STA has saved X amount of lives resulting in Y extra dps, it's simply a dick measuring magelo stat, as I said many pages ago.

I'm not continuing this debate with you, as you will constantly make things up with napkin math saying ludicrous things like STR doesn't do anything after 140 because my EC geared monk already does fine dps, lol.

You are putting words in my mouth by claiming I said 140 STR is some sort of cap. Why do you say nonsense like this? I simply said my Monk is doing good DPS at 140 Strength, and leveling quickly. Max HP can save your life, this is a fact. I didn't say it was a high percentage chance.

[Baldwooky]

I agree Str will lead to more dps, but maxing stam isn't easy even with full velious raid gear and 95 base stam I still am 30~ points shy. I opt to cap at 205 which buffs give me 255.

Maxxing HP and resists is how you can stay engaged into any AoE raid fight. If you think not being able to stay in a fight and actually do damage isn't something you should consider, then thats up to you, enjoy your 4-5% more dps until you max Str, which is unrefutably cheaper (and realistic) to do.

A 0 dps rogue adds nothing.

Vendor prices.. give me a break if that's in any way meaningful.
max Charisma for vendor pricing can bought for like 100pp worth of jewlery.

It all depends what you want.

[7thGate]

I said CHA is a viable candidate if Rogues actually get DIed. I simply don't know how often that actually happens. At least you agree STR is no longer the best option here.


It has been my personal experience that, like most buffs, you have to ask for it. However, clerics generally do not carry emeralds, so if you want it, you will need to carry them.

I found this is similar to Avatar, actually, though some shamans will carry their own emerald supply, if you want it consistently you need to carry. I've got them on me for that, so can request DI when appropriate.

[Seducio]

Random piece of advice:

Around level 50 or 51, make sure your lockpicking skill is at least at 201 for Sebilis locked doors. Easy skills ups can be had in Befallen.

If it's below 201, consider mechanized lockpicks for the +2% bonus which may get you over 200.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It has been my personal experience that, like most buffs, you have to ask for it. However, clerics generally do not carry emeralds, so if you want it, you will need to carry them.

I found this is similar to Avatar, actually, though some shamans will carry their own emerald supply, if you want it consistently you need to carry. I've got them on me for that, so can request DI when appropriate.

Thank you for the information about how you deal with Divine Intervention. I don't have too much information on how often this spell actually gets used outside of raid tanks on the harder raid content.

The nice thing about Shamans is they can get Primal Avatar, which means they don't need to carry Emeralds. But not all Shamans have Primal Avatar, so it is good that you carry the components around just in case. Smart idea!

[Ripqozko]

another DSM thread, joy

[Seducio]

If DSM was a mob in game he'd have crazy high regen

[7thGate]

Thank you for the information about how you deal with Divine Intervention. I don't have too much information on how often this spell actually gets used outside of raid tanks on the harder raid content.

The nice thing about Shamans is they can get Primal Avatar, which means they don't need to carry Emeralds. But not all Shamans have Primal Avatar, so it is good that you carry the components around just in case. Smart idea!

My guess is that it doesn't get a ton of use. I do ask for it, but only on fights where I think there's an actual chance I will die to AoE. If I'm doing a 47 man Telk or something I'm not going to bother. I've had a few clerics say no one has ever asked for the spell, so I'm guessing it probably isn't being requested a ton. It might be meta or guild dependent though.

Regardless, it's got a 10 minute duration, I don't think it's usually very disruptive to get, so if you want it I think you can probably usually have it.

[Vexenu]

STR is the gift that keeps on giving. Extra unbuffed DPS 1-60 (and you will be unbuffed/partially buffed way more often than not while leveling), and increased carrying capacity is a huge quality of life buff.

STA is the theoretical min/max choice. The extra +100 HP at 60 might realistically save your life once over hundreds of hours of play, but resist gear and wort pots are what will really impact survival on raids. I would not pump STA unless I was megatwinked and leveling the character exclusively to raid with.

CHA is a meme reply. You don't need cheaper vendor prices, since as a Rogue you prefer to steal, anyway. And no one is realistically bothering to cast DI on Rogues.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

STR is easily capped with EC gear and buffs. There's no need to waste your points on it for any melee class with 20k worth of twink gear. Having 300+ STR is not helpful.

If losing STR was a big deal, people would be telling OP to go Barbarian or Dwarf. It's apparently fine to lose 40-70 STR by picking Gnome, but it's not fine to lose 30 STR by putting points into STA.

[fortior]

Found the new DSM thread

[sajbert]

Found the new DSM thread

He’s right though.

With 20k gear you’ll have good enough DPS for it never to matter in groups, and that’s all you will be doing. You’ll also have enough str to cap with buffs and enough to be able to carry a fair amount of finesteel weapons and coin.

Anyone who tells me they’d notice +25str when grouping with kunark/velious gear is delusional.

Sure, stamina won’t matter either but in the end it’ll provide some use instead of none. People crying about pointless minmaxing are literally minmaxing themselves, just a different segment of the game.

I haven’t checked magelo with a BIS-profile, possibly going max dex is better to proc avatar faster in case you don’t end up capping dex. I doubt it though.

[fortior]

not having capped str on a rogue is garbage, sorry, and you can play a grouping rogue with 1 max hp

[Trelaboon]

I agree that they should put their points into STA. STR is easy to cap in Velious even without BiS gear or a Primal.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Spider_Fur_Collar +07 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haze_Panther_Skullcap +10 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Dark_Scale_Sleeves +10 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Gauntlets_of_Potence +15 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Thick_Banded_Belt +15 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Tribal_War_Mask +07 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Mithril_Greaves +07 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haze_Panther_Boots +08 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Haze_Panther_Shoulderpads +07 STR
https://wiki.project1999.com/Silver_Chitin_Wristband +14 STR for 2x

With these items, which are all purchasable in EC, you can get +100 STR on your gnome. You still have room for CoF and Fungi. With 160 STR you will be capped at 255 with Maniacal Strength + FoS. You get a total of 135 STR from those two buffs, so you will be 40 STR over what these items give you, which means you still have flexibility on gear I showed above, and I didn't even provide an item for all slots.

Nothing worse and more shameful than having to ask for strength buff before focus as a rogue lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm still waiting on people to start telling OP to pick Barbarian instead of Gnome. He is losing 43 STR by picking Gnome. It is amazing how people forget this, while complaining about losing 30 STR. Apparently losing 43 STR on your starting stats isn't a big deal:)

[Ripqozko]

I'm still waiting on people to start telling OP to pick Barbarian instead of Gnome. He is losing 43 STR by picking Gnome. It is amazing how people forget this, while complaining about losing 30 STR. Apparently losing 43 STR on your starting stats isn't a big deal:)

He will never see a gnome mask, he can get a barb mask

[Evia]

Thanks all, these answers were very helpful.

The one thing I’ll mention regarding the weapons, and I’m not sure most longtime players realize, is apart from budget, availability of a lot of these items is also a pretty limiting factor. For example, the only item mentioned in this thread that I’ve seen for sale in the tunnel, on the general discord, the guild discords, and the sub forum here in the last week is the croaking dirk. I’d snap buy a chokidai fang, frozen shard, or small dragonbone shard. I have about 20k to spend and the best I see available is a croaking dirk and crystalline short sword.

Seb dirk is underrated. I used that bad boy in offhand from my mid 20s until mid 50s when I finally grabbed a EOTNW. It’s an excellent weapon and I can’t recommend it enough, especially for the cheap price.

[Evia]

I'm still waiting on people to start telling OP to pick Barbarian instead of Gnome. He is losing 43 STR by picking Gnome. It is amazing how people forget this, while complaining about losing 30 STR. Apparently losing 43 STR on your starting stats isn't a big deal:)

Yeah but you’re leaving out the part that he’d have to forgo the incredibly awesome gnome and become an ugly barbarian to gain that 43 str…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah but you’re leaving out the part that he’d have to forgo the incredibly awesome gnome and become an ugly barbarian to gain that 43 str…

He will never see a gnome mask, he can get a barb mask

What you are saying is losing 43 STR isn't a big deal, which means choosing fashion over stats isn't going to significantly impact OP's ability to DPS.

Thank you for agreeing with me!

Put your points into STA, because the STR isn't going to significantly impact OP's ability to DPS, and STR is much easier to cap with EC gear and buffs.

[Ripqozko]

What you are saying is losing 43 STR isn't a big deal, which means choosing fashion over stats isn't going to significantly impact OP's ability to DPS.

Thank you for agreeing with me!

Put your points into STA, because the STR isn't going to significantly impact OP's ability to DPS, and STR is much easier to cap with EC gear and buffs.

C u in 100 more posts, DSM never stops

[fortior]

It's incredible how much a warmbody shaman is convinced people would wither and die without his sage advice

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's incredible how much a warmbody shaman is convinced people would wither and die without his sage advice

It's incredible you think acting like an asshole on a forum makes you sound smart:)

We aren't in grade school anymore. This kind of tactic doesn't make you look confident, or intelligent.

[Vexenu]

Remember, friends, if you're making a Rogue, this is the only advice you need:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51qninUnshL.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Watch and learn:

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/08/69/43/086943c847aa7d4514e41cd095c281a7.jpg

[Evia]

It’s neither str or sta, my friends

It is the fashion of the quest

[Cecily]

+5 str +25 sta gnome, human, or dark elf.


Dark elf is best because ultravision and pretty all the time.

[Duane]

https://youtu.be/xFXUYl2ljqI

[Duik]

STR is easily capped with EC gear and buffs. There's no need to waste your points on it for any melee class with 20k worth of twink gear. Having 300+ STR is not helpful.

If losing STR was a big deal, people would be telling OP to go Barbarian or Dwarf. It's apparently fine to lose 40-70 STR by picking Gnome, but it's not fine to lose 30 STR by putting points into STA.

HE.
WANTS.
TO.
SPECIFICALLY.
BE.
A.
GNOME.

Please read op BEFORE applying DSM logic to arguements.
P.S The correct answer is ALWAYS Wizard.

[Duik]

https://youtu.be/xFXUYl2ljqI

Lolocaust. Dwarf it is then.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

HE.
WANTS.
TO.
SPECIFICALLY.
BE.
A.
GNOME.

Please read op BEFORE applying DSM logic to arguements.
P.S The correct answer is ALWAYS Wizard.

I know he wants to be a gnome. Putting periods in your sentences and turning on caps lock doesn't make you look smart.

My point is if the loss in starting STR was such a huge problem, people would be advising against picking gnome. Just because OP wants to be a gnome, it doesn't mean people cannot try to dissuade OP from being a gnome. Rogues have illusion masks as well, so race matters less in terms of fashion.

You cannot simultaneously say fashion > stats while also saying if he doesn't put 25 points into STR, he's going to have major problems playing his class. He is already losing 43+ STR for his fashion choice.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3625136&postcount=18

The gear list I provided in the link above would put you at 160 strength as a gnome, with no buffs or points put into STR. With Maniacal Strength + FoS you will be at 295 Strength. It is trivial to cap STR in Velious era with EC gear and buffs. Even as a gnome, STA is the better starting stat choice.

[Crede]

You cannot simultaneously say fashion > stats while also saying if he doesn't put 25 points into STR, he's going to have major problems playing his class. He is already losing 43+ STR for his fashion choice

I don’t think anybody has suggested you’re going to have major problems playing their class if you don’t go str. That’s the most ludicrous concept and if anyone agrees with that then they’re just trolling.

But there’s nothing wrong with getting the best returns from starting stats while still picking your favorite race, which is the most important.

Str just provides more short term benefit than sta for rogues. Sta provides almost no short term benefit, and not much long term benefit either as rogues don’t need to prioritize hp like warriors and sta gets capped eventually anyway.

Edit: It takes a long time to cap str without constantly relying on shaman buffs especially as a gnome even with a good twink budget while also focusing on resist gear. And buffs can get dispelled.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t think anybody has suggested you’re going to have major problems playing their class if you don’t go str. That’s the most ludicrous concept and if anyone agrees with that then they’re just trolling.

But there’s nothing wrong with getting the best returns from starting stats while still picking your favorite race, which is the most important.

Str just provides more short term benefit than sta for rogues. Sta provides almost no short term benefit, and not much long term benefit either as rogues don’t need to prioritize hp like warriors and sta gets capped eventually anyway.

As I said before, if this was OP's first character on a server, STR would have a stronger case for a lot of classes, since it helps you carry around stuff to sell, which translates into plat you can use to get gear.

OP has 20k worth of twink gear. There is no reason to pick STR for short term gains when you can already get a bunch of STR from EC gear, and you have Velious era weapons + a haste item.

STR is the easiest stat to cap, so it's not a big deal if you don't put your points into STR. STA is the better long term choice, and OP doesn't need the short term gains from STR.

And buffs can get dispelled.

Your dispel point doesn't really matter, because spell haste is going to provide much more DPS than STR buffs. The problem with getting dispelled is losing your spell haste, not your STR buffs.


Edit: It takes a long time to cap str without constantly relying on shaman buffs especially as a gnome even with a good twink budget while also focusing on resist gear.

It really isn't difficult to cap STR, and Rogues generally group anyway. I am not sure why you think most Rogues are going to have trouble getting STR buffs. Unless you have 100k+ worth of gear, Rogue soloing is generally very rough, which is why Rogues prefer to group while leveling.

[fortior]

I don’t think anybody has suggested you’re going to have major problems playing their class if you don’t go str. That’s the most ludicrous concept and if anyone agrees with that then they’re just trolling.

But there’s nothing wrong with getting the best returns from starting stats while still picking your favorite race, which is the most important.

Str just provides more short term benefit than sta for rogues. Sta provides almost no short term benefit, and not much long term benefit either as rogues don’t need to prioritize hp like warriors and sta gets capped eventually anyway.

Edit: It takes a long time to cap str without constantly relying on shaman buffs especially as a gnome even with a good twink budget while also focusing on resist gear. And buffs can get dispelled.

You're talking to a dude who plays a buff bot on raids for a bottom tier guild

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're talking to a dude who plays a buff bot on raids for a bottom tier guild

I am not sure why you think this strategy works, or even helps your argument. You just look like an asshole, and you still aren't correct on any of your points:)

When did looking like an incorrect asshole help someone's argument?

[Toxigen]

I don’t think anybody has suggested you’re going to have major problems playing their class if you don’t go str. That’s the most ludicrous concept and if anyone agrees with that then they’re just trolling.

But there’s nothing wrong with getting the best returns from starting stats while still picking your favorite race, which is the most important.

Str just provides more short term benefit than sta for rogues. Sta provides almost no short term benefit, and not much long term benefit either as rogues don’t need to prioritize hp like warriors and sta gets capped eventually anyway.

Edit: It takes a long time to cap str without constantly relying on shaman buffs especially as a gnome even with a good twink budget while also focusing on resist gear. And buffs can get dispelled.

also resists > HP anyway for the overwhelming majority of raids where a rogue will take dmg

and that resist gear may be taking away from STR - esp if you're just getting started and dont have those big juicy BiS pieces

[DeathsSilkyMist]

also resists > HP anyway for the overwhelming majority of raids where a rogue will take dmg

and that resist gear may be taking away from STR - esp if you're just getting started and dont have those big juicy BiS pieces

Agreed that Resists are generally better. You are still going to easily cap STR in a raid. With Maniacal Strength + FoS you only need 120 STR total without buffs. With Rogue Epic and Thick Banded Belt or Gauntlets of Potence, you are already at 35/60 STR needed to hit 120 STR on a gnome Rogue.

If you want to bring dispelling mobs into the conversation, those hurt your resists and haste % too. It's a flimsy argument to say +25 STR is going to significantly increase your raid DPS in the specific scenario of all your buffs going away.

[Crede]

As I said before, if this was OP's first character on a server, STR would have a stronger case for a lot of classes, since it helps you carry around stuff to sell, which translates into plat you can use to get gear.

OP has 20k worth of twink gear. There is no reason to pick STR for short term gains when you can already get a bunch of STR from EC gear, and you have Velious era weapons + a haste item.

STR is the easiest stat to cap, so it's not a big deal if you don't put your points into STR. STA is the better long term choice, and OP doesn't need the short term gains from STR.



Your dispel point doesn't really matter, because spell haste is going to provide much more DPS than STR buffs. The problem with getting dispelled is losing your spell haste, not your STR buffs.



It really isn't difficult to cap STR, and Rogues generally group anyway. I am not sure why you think most Rogues are going to have trouble getting STR buffs. Unless you have 100k+ worth of gear, Rogue soloing is generally very rough, which is why Rogues prefer to group while leveling.

You’re trying so hard to defend your STA argument when the rogue arguments for going STA are essentially “cuz sta is harder to cap” and “dead rogues don’t do dps”.

Both dumb arguments IMO, sta is not a rogue stat that matters, there’s no data to suggest capping sta sooner “saves lives”. Like I said, it’s a Magelo dick stroking stat for rogues. These are all insignificant imo, whereas you can prove you do more dps with morestrength, and you will not instantly cap str at startup. It will also let you carry more items and pp without being encumbered. These are real measurable gains.

It’s really that simple, OP knows the arguments, it’s up to them to decide what to do with them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You’re trying so hard to defend your STA argument when the rogue arguments for going STA are essentially “cuz sta is harder to cap” and “dead rogues don’t do dps”.

Both dumb arguments IMO, sta is not a rogue stat that matters, there’s no data to suggest capping sta sooner “saves lives”. Like I said, it’s a Magelo dick stroking stat for rogues. These are all insignificant imo, whereas you can prove you do more dps with morestrength, and you will not instantly cap str at startup. It will also let you carry more items and pp without being encumbered. These are real measurable gains.

It’s really that simple, OP knows the arguments, it’s up to them to decide what to do with them.

I am not sure why this is a difficult concept. You put your starting stats into the stat that is harder to cap. You get zero returns from a capped stat.

STR is easy to cap in Velious era. You are generally just throwing your points away by putting your starting stats there. The exception to this is if you are making your first character on a server. In that specific scenario, STR can be a good choice. OP has 20k worth of twink gear, so this clearly isn't the case.

If you really thought STR was such a big deal, you would be telling OP to play Barbarian instead. Rogues have a lot of fashion options with illusion masks already.

If you want to claim fashion > stats, then you are saying losing 43 STR isn't a big deal. I am saying losing 25 STR isn't a big deal. We are saying the same thing, since 43 STR is a bigger loss than 25 STR.

[Crede]

If you really thought STR was such a big deal, you would be telling OP to play Barbarian instead. Rogues have a lot of fashion options with illusion masks already.

Nah, bad advice. You can illusion barb, can’t illusion gnome anymore. Gnome great choice while also benefiting from starting str. Best of both worlds, not sure why you keep thinking recommending strength = going barb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah, bad advice. You can illusion barb, can’t illusion gnome anymore. Gnome great choice while also benefiting from starting str. Best of both worlds, not sure why you keep thinking recommending strength = going barb.

If you want to claim fashion > stats, then you are saying losing 43 STR isn't a big deal by picking Gnome over Barbarian. I am saying losing 25 STR isn't a big deal when you put your points into STA. We are saying the same thing, since losing 43 STR is a bigger loss than 25 STR. This is pretty basic logic, and you agree with me. You cannot simultaneously say 25 STR is a big deal, while saying 43 STR is not a big deal.

[Crede]

If you want to claim fashion > stats, then you are saying losing 43 STR isn't a big deal by picking Gnome over Barbarian. I am saying losing 25 STR isn't a big deal. We are saying the same thing, since losing 43 STR is a bigger loss than 25 STR. This is pretty basic logic, and you agree with me.

Fashion is greater than stats. You can still capitalize on starting stats with your favorite race.

Never said 43 str was a huge deal. It’s just better than sta.

You’re not cunning even though you’re trying to be, lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Never said 43 str was a huge deal.

We are in agreement then. As you say, 43 STR isn't a huge deal. 25 STR is a smaller number, so the same logic applies.

Because of this, STA is the better starting stat. 43 STR isn't a huge deal, and STR is easy to cap in Velious. You only need 120 STR to cap STR with Maniacal Strength + Focus of Spirit. With Rogue Epic and Thick Banded Belt or Gauntlets of Potence, you are already at 35/60 STR needed to hit 120 STR on a gnome Rogue. It is easy to find a few other pieces to get the remaining 25 STR.

[Toxigen]

I am not sure why this is a difficult concept. You put your starting stats into the stat that is harder to cap. You get zero returns from a capped stat.

STR is easy to cap in Velious era. You are generally just throwing your points away by putting your starting stats there. The exception to this is if you are making your first character on a server. In that specific scenario, STR can be a good choice. OP has 20k worth of twink gear, so this clearly isn't the case.

If you really thought STR was such a big deal, you would be telling OP to play Barbarian instead. Rogues have a lot of fashion options with illusion masks already.

If you want to claim fashion > stats, then you are saying losing 43 STR isn't a big deal. I am saying losing 25 STR isn't a big deal. We are saying the same thing, since 43 STR is a bigger loss than 25 STR.

20k aint shit he should save it all for epic mq outside some basic weapons and a hold-over haste item

and the str will be felt allllll the way to 60 / good gear - how many fuckin hours is this guy gonna play until he has shaman STR + FoS all the time? will he ever have level 60 shaman buffs?

yes, we all know STA is the idealist best choice...but in the real world and for this OP, its STR

now go home - you're drunk on paper napkin

[DeathsSilkyMist]

yes, we all know STA is the idealist best choice

Agreed!

20k aint shit he should save it all for epic mq outside some basic weapons and a hold-over haste item

and the str will be felt allllll the way to 60 / good gear - how many fuckin hours is this guy gonna play until he has shaman STR + FoS all the time?


With 20K OP can easily get enough STR to carry everything they need, and can buy cheap WR bags. OP needs to get to 46 first before worrying about an Epic MQ. He will need to play his character quite a bit to get to 46, so I am not sure why you think the play time argument holds water. Either he will get bored before 46, or love the class and farm more money for whatever he needs. With 20k worth of twink money, OP clearly has the ability to farm more. People with little money typically don't just drop 20k on an alt.

[fortior]

It doesn't matter whether a rogue has 1500 or 2000 hp, all that matters is resists because you're only worrying about aoe damage at that point. Having max or near max str unbuffed means 1 fewer rogue to buff, which is a big deal in a competitive raid environment. Having max or near max str unbuffed also means not requiring str buffs in a group setting, which is nice because only 1 class has substantial str buffage, and rogue duos well with classes that don't such as necro. Meanwhile a rogue will never tank in a group and a rogue will never tank in a raid aside from bumping with nimble. Obviously the shaman player can't imagine a situation without lv60 shaman buffs though.

[Toxigen]

It doesn't matter whether a rogue has 1500 or 2000 hp, all that matters is resists because you're only worrying about aoe damage at that point. Having max or near max str unbuffed means 1 fewer rogue to buff, which is a big deal in a competitive raid environment. Having max or near max str unbuffed also means not requiring str buffs in a group setting, which is nice because only 1 class has substantial str buffage, and rogue duos well with classes that don't such as necro. Meanwhile a rogue will never tank in a group and a rogue will never tank in a raid aside from bumping with nimble. Obviously the shaman player can't imagine a situation without lv60 shaman buffs though.

exactly this

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It doesn't matter whether a rogue has 1500 or 2000 hp, all that matters is resists because you're only worrying about aoe damage at that point. Having max or near max str unbuffed means 1 fewer rogue to buff, which is a big deal in a competitive raid environment. Having max or near max str unbuffed also means not requiring str buffs in a group setting, which is nice because only 1 class has substantial str buffage, and rogue duos well with classes that don't such as necro. Meanwhile a rogue will never tank in a group and a rogue will never tank in a raid aside from bumping with nimble. Obviously the shaman player can't imagine a situation without lv60 shaman buffs though.

It also doesn't matter if a Rogue has 300 STR or 355 STR:) Rogues can fit Maniacal Strength into a competitive raid situation just fine. I have buffed Maniacal Strength plenty of times on top competitive targets. I am not sure what raid scenario you are talking about that doesn't have a Shaman buffing. I am not sure what solo/group scenario you are talking about that needs 255 STR for a Rogue to do good DPS.

[Toxigen]

like talkin to a wall

[DeathsSilkyMist]

like talkin to a wall

Indeed! You know STR is easy to cap, and you still want to argue STR for no apparent reason.

[Crede]

We are in agreement then. As you say, 43 STR isn't a huge deal. 25 STR is a smaller number, so the same logic applies.

Because of this, STA is the better starting stat. 43 STR isn't a huge deal, and STR is easy to cap in Velious. You only need 120 STR to cap STR with Maniacal Strength + Focus of Spirit. With Rogue Epic and Thick Banded Belt or Gauntlets of Potence, you are already at 35/60 STR needed to hit 120 STR on a gnome Rogue. It is easy to find a few other pieces to get the remaining 25 STR.

We haven’t agreed on anything. Str is better, regardless of which caps first. Has better short term benefits. Sta is a magelo benefit for rogues.

Again, you’re not cunning with your logic. Stop trying to be.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We haven’t agreed on anything. Str is better, regardless of which caps first. Has better short term benefits.

Again, you’re not cunning with your logic. Stop trying to be.

It's not being cunning, it is basic math. You agree 43 STR isn't a big deal, which means you agree 25 STR isn't a big deal. There's no cunning needed here. You agree that 43 > 25, and both numbers aren't a big deal.

[Crede]

It's not being cunning, it is basic math. You agree 43 STR isn't a big deal, which means you agree 25 STR isn't a big deal. There's no cunning needed here. You agree that 43 > 25, and both numbers aren't a big deal.

We don’t agree that str is less beneficial than sta, even if sta caps sooner. So whatever you else think we agree or don’t agree on is irrelevant.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We don’t agree that str is less beneficial than sta, even if sta caps sooner. So whatever you else think we agree or don’t agree on is irrelevant.

Then you would try to persuade OP that Barbarian is the better choice over Gnome, because you are saying 43 STR is a big deal. You can't have it both ways.

If you say fashion > stats, you are agreeing that having lower stats is not going to be a problem for OP.

[Crede]

Then you would try to persuade OP that Barbarian is the better choice over Gnome, because you are saying 43 STR is a big deal. You can't have it both ways.

If you say fashion > stats, you are agreeing that having lower stats are not going to be a problem for OP.

Never said 43 str was a big deal. Nor did I recommend barbarian.

I’m sorry, you have no logic.

[Toxigen]

Just being able to carry more weight alone makes STR the better choice for the leveling path...nevermind 99% of the time this char will be logged in without DSM's "muh pocket 60 shaman STR buffs"

such a stupid fucking argument - anyone needing to ask the question here is obviously in the general play capacity (not hardcore raider) where STR is the only choice

but go ahead on for another 50 pages why a piddly amount more HP for this leveling rogue is better

[fortior]

It also doesn't matter if a Rogue has 300 STR or 355 STR:) Rogues can fit Maniacal Strength into a competitive raid situation just fine. I have buffed Maniacal Strength plenty of times on top competitive targets. I am not sure what raid scenario you are talking about that doesn't have a Shaman buffing. I am not sure what solo/group scenario you are talking about that needs 255 STR for a Rogue to do good DPS.

Any time-sensitive encounter like mobs that are instantly FTE'd on spawn, or encounters where the available shamans have better things to do than buffing. An example would be ST golems. I note that you didn't comment on the grouping aspect so I'm assuming you just conceded it. Anyway, since you are a shaman player, it's to be expected that you aren't aware that there can be situations in which you don't have shaman buffs as a rogue.

As a rogue, your job is dealing damage while not getting low hp aggro. In order to do this, you need a little bit of hp, lots of resists, and depending on the encounter (some VP dragons), a little to lots of healing/cures/runes/worts. Being reliant on stat buffs to deal damage is introducing a point of failure into your primary job. It's alright for guild bots, but if you're a serious rogue you have 255 str unbuffed, or you have a primal. No exceptions.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just being able to carry more weight alone makes STR the better choice for the leveling path...nevermind 99% of the time this char will be logged in without DSM's "muh pocket 60 shaman STR buffs"

It's easy to get enough STR to carry everything you need with 20k, plus you can buy cheap WR bags.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3625136&postcount=18

Gnome Rogues can easily hit 160+ STR without buffs in EC gear, which is a lot of carrying capacity already, especially with WR bags.

Rogues typically group while leveling, so getting STR buffs, ports to a merchant, etc. are not going to be difficult for a grouping Rogue.

Any time-sensitive encounter like mobs that are instantly FTE'd on spawn, or encounters where the available shamans have better things to do than buffing. An example would be ST golems. I note that you didn't comment on the grouping aspect so I'm assuming you just conceded it. Anyway, since you are a shaman player, it's to be expected that you aren't aware that there can be situations in which you don't have shaman buffs as a rogue.

As a rogue, your job is dealing damage while not getting low hp aggro. In order to do this, you need a little bit of hp, lots of resists, and depending on the encounter (some VP dragons), a little to lots of healing/cures/runes/worts. Being reliant on stat buffs to deal damage is introducing a point of failure into your primary job. It's alright for guild bots, but if you're a serious rogue you have 255 str unbuffed, or you have a primal. No exceptions.

I am not sure why you think buffing is hard in raids. I have contested ST golems plenty of times, and had time to buff people. We also got the kill. Pretending that raid buffing is difficult is not a good argument.

What concession about grouping are you talking about? I already said you don't need 255 STR in a group or solo to DPS well. I am not sure where you got the idea I conceded, or that 255 STR is going to massively benefit your group/solo experience.

Never said 43 str was a big deal.


Then you agree with me lol. You agree 25 STR isn't a big deal.

[fortior]

Shamans aren't very good grouping partners while leveling, and they only get focus of spirit at 60. At 39, when shamans become a little less awful to group with due to the introduction of Venom of the Snake and Canni 2, they can buff strength by a whopping 34. Not relying on buffs to deal max damage (which, again, is your job) means one less point of failure.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Shamans aren't very good grouping partners while leveling, and they only get focus of spirit at 60. At 39, when shamans become a little less awful to group with due to the introduction of Venom of the Snake and Canni 2, they can buff strength by a whopping 34. Not relying on buffs to deal max damage (which, again, is your job) means one less point of failure.

Shamans are great grouping partners while leveling.

They get haste, buffs, slow, and can keep up with Cleric healing into the 50s.

You should know this if you want to keep claiming your knowledge is vastly superior.

This is also off topic:)

[Toxigen]

this is getting stupid

for this OP, the answer is STR

[DeathsSilkyMist]

this is getting stupid

for this OP, the answer is STR

The answer is STA for OP, he has 20k worth of twink gear. If you want to claim a bit of starting STR is going to be a big deal, suggest that OP rolls Barbarian instead. Rogues have illusion masks for fashion.

[fortior]

On a rogue, my ideal duo partner would be a necro. If I'm rolling a gnome, chances are I'll be running into a lot more of those than shamans from the get-go as well. Anyway, OP, the best advice has already been offered. Given that you want to start a gnome rogue, your best starting stat is maxing strength. The people who say you should max stamina are like the people who say to max starting charisma on warriors, don't worry about them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't worry about people who have to resort to insults and "ignore everybody else" statements when they cannot back up their opinions, like fortior.

STR is easily capped in Velious, and it is easy to get good DPS with Velious weapons and cheap worn haste. Groups do not kick Rogues because they have 150 STR instead of 175 STR.

STA will give you returns, while capped STR will not.

[Ripqozko]

Another DSM thread, yikes.

[Crede]

Don't worry about people who have to resort to insults and "ignore everybody else" statements when they cannot back up their opinions, like fortior.

STR is easily capped in Velious, and it is easy to get good DPS with Velious weapons and cheap worn haste. Groups do not kick Rogues because they have 150 STR instead of 175 STR.

STA will give you returns, while capped STR will not.

Your only argument for STA is that it’s harder to cap than STR. By this logic, you might as well just go CHA then, because it’s harder to cap CHA than STA. You haven’t actually provided evidence that capping STA quicker benefits the rogue. And we could actually measure more CHA leading to more pp gains.

Recommending STA on a rogue is about as crazy as recommending it on a Wiz.

[Jimjam]

Idk … a decent list of gear (i appreciate it doesn’t fill all slots) only hitting 160 str imo is an argument for dumping str more. Most toons aren’t gonna be followed around by a 60 shaman the majority of the time, much less one wanting to double buff. Most levels you can’t even get that buff combo. Most of a toons work is 1-60. 60 content is mostly an afterthought where as a single dps you are a small cog in the machine.

Dumping str and maybe 1 more mediocre str item is basically taking the rogue to cap with just FoS which is a lot more convenient. Imo its best to get within 40 of cap so you can get maxed by a druid girdling your karanas.

Furthermore high str is a great mitigation against cripple spells. If you are relying on buffs then cripple becomes doubly effective.

40-60 you will fight a lot of cripply casters.

More loot, less buff grovelling, better cripple resilience. Choose str.

Or charisma for roleplay factor of convincing guards you’re innocent, spy techniques to extract info, finding and extorting fences, etc.

[Pint]

OP states he's never played a rogue and asks whether he should opt for schw vs fbss. Obv he's got his pocket shaman secured and already has his path to 60 and raid loot progression spreadsheet finalized.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your only argument for STA is that it’s harder to cap than STR. By this logic, you might as well just go CHA then, because it’s harder to cap CHA than STA. You haven’t actually provided evidence that capping STA quicker benefits the rogue. And we could actually measure more CHA leading to more pp gains.

Recommending STA on a rogue is about as crazy as recommending it on a Wiz.

Your argument is 43 STR is not needed, but 25 STR is needed. It's nonsense. If you thought OP needs strength, you wouldn't advise they roll gnome. You would tell them to roll barbarian.

When you argue that fashion > stats, you are admitting starting stats aren't a big deal. OP could do just fine by dumping their starting stats into WIS.

You might as well put your points into the harder to cap stat, STA, since it doesn't matter too much anyway. You get a bonus throughout your toons life, including endgame, by putting your points into STA.

STR is easy to cap, it is the easiest stat to cap in the game. With 20k you can get enough STR and WR bags. Nobody is going to kick you from a group/raid because you have 150 STR instead of 175 STR. If that did occur, you would be telling people to roll barbarian.

[Duik]

YES!
I'VE.
BEEN.
ROASTED.
BY.
DSM.
LIFE.
GOAL.
ACHIEVED.

[bcbrown]

Your argument is 43 STR is not needed, but 25 STR is needed. It's nonsense. If you thought OP needs strength, you wouldn't advise they roll gnome. You would tell them to roll barbarian.

I don't see anyone saying 25 STR is needed. I see people saying that any stat allocation will make little difference, that strength has an observably helpful impact while leveling, and that when rolling a rogue for the first time it's a perfectly fine choice.

[Crede]

I don't see anyone saying 25 STR is needed. I see people saying that any stat allocation will make little difference, that strength has an observably helpful impact while leveling, and that when rolling a rogue for the first time it's a perfectly fine choice.

No one did. It’s just DSMs pitiful attempt to “win”. Lol.

[CptnCanuck]

@OP, Gnome is a great choice for a Rogue. They get to wall hack and when fighting Giants you get to take out their achilles heel :) If I was to make a rogue down the road it would be between a Gnome and Halfling strictly for RP purposes.

As for starting stats, this can cause quite the debate as we can see. There is a lot of great information in the forums but at times I have found that it doesn't always pertain to my situation as I am not raider and have access to BiS gear and the best buffs all of the time.

My question to you would be are you going to be racing to 60 and raiding all the time or is it going to be a slow process to reach 60 and your goal is just to group and do dungeons? I can't comment on the first one as I don't really raid but If it is the later I would recommend putting your starting points in Str. That is where I think you would see the best gains for that style of play as it could take you a very long time before you are concerned about maxxing out str and focusing on other stats.

Currently I have been playing in a static 6 man group (War, Clr, Shm(me), Mag, Rog, Enc) ranging form lvl52 to 57 twice a week doing dungeons. Been having a blast but will still be a bit of time before we are all lvl60. Our Rogue in the group is a Gnome and is always looking for Str buffs, not really concerned about HP. In terms of playing not once has the Rogue's health ever come into play in terms of us wishing he had an extra 50-100 hp of health. Really the only time for us when we needed to focus some healing on the Rogue has been when a mob rampages but between myself and the cleric it is fine. The times when the rogue has died, an extra 100+ hp wouldn't have mattered as it was either a really bad pull, got trained or some crazy pathing issue and usually it is a wipe for the rogue and warrior and we are trying to gate out as many as we can so we can get a quicker reset.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No one did. It’s just DSMs pitiful attempt to “win”. Lol.

The strange thing is you keep thinking I am trying to "win". That's not my intention at all, that is simply what's in your mind.

I am pointing out the logical inconsistency with your idea that fashion is greater than stats, while you are also trying to claim STR is going to meaningfully impact OP's leveling experience.

You have yet to show how you think 25 STR will meaningfully impact OP's leveling experience, when you have admitted 43 STR will not meaningfully impact OP's leveling experience. This is why you say it is fine to pick Gnome over Barbarian.

I would love to see some data on how much DPS you think that 25 STR will give you, or data showing how having 150 STR instead of 175 STR is going to significantly increase OP's number of trips back to a merchant, or that the lack of 25 STR will cause issues with grouping.

[Crede]

Your argument is 43 STR is not needed, but 25 STR is needed. It's nonsense. If you thought OP needs strength, you wouldn't advise they roll gnome. You would tell them to roll barbarian.

When you argue that fashion > stats, you are admitting starting stats aren't a big deal. OP could do just fine by dumping their starting stats into WIS.

You might as well put your points into the harder to cap stat, STA, since it doesn't matter too much anyway. You get a bonus throughout your toons life, including endgame, by putting your points into STA.

STR is easy to cap, it is the easiest stat to cap in the game. With 20k you can get enough STR and WR bags. Nobody is going to kick you from a group/raid because you have 150 STR instead of 175 STR. If that did occur, you would be telling people to roll barbarian.

Since your argument is essentially “cap sta quicker” then you would also tell them to roll barbarian. That’s not a factor, OP specified gnome. Stop bringing barbs into the equation in a failed attempt to be cunning and try to distort the logic.

How easy/hard a starting stat is to cap has nothing to do with the impact it actually has on a character throughout their lifetime. If you truly want to forego greater starting stat benefits on a GNOME(not barbarian) vs end game magelo stat maxing, then you should go CHA because it is harder to cap than STA in velious.

And I noticed you ignored my mention of CHA, so I will take it that you agree, CHA is harder to cap than STA, so just go with that if you really are into capping stats. It still provides a benefit to rogues from both a role play and loot/pickpocketing vendor pp potential.

[Duik]

The strange thing is you keep thinking I am trying to "win". That's not my intention at all, that is simply what's in your mind.

I am pointing out the logical inconsistency with your idea that fashion is greater than stats, while you are also trying to claim STR is going to meaningfully impact OP's leveling experience.



How's this for logic.
Fashion in this instance WILL gain more dps cuz OP clearly favours gnome, if convinced to roll barb for the str, will likely enjoy it less and subsequently play less therefore doing less dps.
Close the thread ffs.

[Crede]

The strange thing is you keep thinking I am trying to "win". That's not my intention at all, that is simply what's in your mind.

I am pointing out the logical inconsistency with your idea that fashion is greater than stats, while you are also trying to claim STR is going to meaningfully impact OP's leveling experience.

You have yet to show how you think 25 STR will meaningfully impact OP's leveling experience, when you have admitted 43 STR will not meaningfully impact OP's leveling experience. This is why you say it is fine to pick Gnome over Barbarian.

I would love to see some data on how much DPS you think that 25 STR will give you, or data showing how having 150 STR instead of 175 STR is going to significantly increase OP's number of trips back to a merchant, or that the lack of 25 STR will cause issues with grouping.

The fact of what having more DPS brings is way beyond the scope of this discussion and too complex to measure accurately. Different people will do different things with more DPS, it’s simply about increasing that in which the class was designed to do, which is DPS.

You’re arguing for STA solely because it’s a harder stat to cap. With that logic, one would go CHA. So thank you for agreeing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Since your argument is essentially “cap sta quicker” then you would also tell them to roll barbarian. That’s not a factor, OP specified gnome. Stop bringing barbs into the equation in a failed attempt to be cunning and try to distort the logic.

How easy/hard a starting stat is to cap has nothing to do with the impact it actually has on a character throughout their lifetime. If you truly want to forego greater starting stat benefits on a GNOME(not barbarian) vs end game magelo stat maxing, then you should go CHA because it is harder to cap than STA in velious.

And I noticed you ignored my mention of CHA, so I will take it that you agree, CHA is harder to cap than STA, so just go with that if you really are into capping stats. It still provides a benefit to rogues from both a role play and loot/pickpocketing vendor pp potential.

I didn't ignore your CHA comment at all. I talked about CHA earlier in the thread. I didn't think it needed to be brought up again. CHA is indeed a contender for best starting stat if you are playing in a group or guild that DI's the Rogues often. I personally haven't seen that strategy being employed, which is why I typically don't suggest CHA. But if metas have changed, and Rogues get DI'ed, then go CHA!

I am not suggesting that OP pick Barbarian, because I understand it is easy to cap STR on any race, and STA can be capped eventually with BiS gear. However, STA is much harder to cap, even with BiS gear, so you will benefit from that choice for more play hours. The only person who is suggesting STR is a significant factor is yourself, which is why your logic doesn't make sense. By your logic OP should roll Barbarian, because you are claiming 25 STR is going to significantly impact OP's leveling process. By extension, 43 STR is going to be an even more significant impact. I disagree with this, which is why I am not arguing it. OP will level just fine without the 43 STR or the 25 STR.

During the leveling process you aren't going to notice 150 STR vs. 175 STR, and no group will kick you out because of it. When you are raiding, you are going to have 135-235 STR in buffs with Maniacal Strength + Focus of Spirit + Avatar. With just Focus of Spirit + Avatar, you are at 167 Strength from buffs. That means you only need 0-28 worth of worn STR on a Gnome to cap STR. It's really not difficult to do the math. With Epic you have 20/28 of that Strength already.

[Infectious]

I am not sure why you think this strategy works, or even helps your argument. You just look like an asshole, and you still aren't correct on any of your points:)

When did looking like an incorrect asshole help someone's argument?

You spam every thread arguing with people and turning the threads into 20+ pages. It's safe to say, everybody knows your an asshole.

[Crede]

I didn't ignore your CHA comment at all. I talked about CHA earlier in the thread. I didn't think it needed to be brought up again. CHA is indeed a contender for best starting stat if you are playing in a group or guild that DI's the Rogues often. I personally haven't seen that strategy being employed, which is why I typically don't suggest CHA. But if metas have changed, and Rogues get DI'ed, then go CHA!

I am not suggesting that OP pick Barbarian, because I understand it is easy to cap STR on any race, and STA can be capped eventually with BiS gear. However, STA is much harder to cap, even with BiS gear, so you will benefit from that choice for more play hours. The only person who is suggesting STR is a significant factor is yourself, which is why your logic doesn't make sense. By your logic OP should roll Barbarian, because you are claiming 25 STR is going to significantly impact OP's leveling process. By extension, 43 STR is going to be an even more significant impact. I disagree with this, which is why I am not arguing it. OP will level just fine without the 43 STR or the 25 STR.

During the leveling process you aren't going to notice 150 STR vs. 175 STR, and no group will kick you out because of it. When you are raiding, you are going to have 135-235 STR in buffs with Maniacal Strength + Focus of Spirit + Avatar. With just Focus of Spirit + Avatar, you are at 167 Strength from buffs. That means you only need 0-28 worth of worn STR on a Gnome to cap STR. It's really not difficult to do the math. With Epic you have 20/28 of that Strength already.

No where did I claim 25 str is going to significantly impact the leveling process. We are debating amongst the best of minor benefits. Str is the best for rogue. Sta is for magelo. Might as well go CHA if you want a cool balanced magelo. You’ve already agreed with this, since your only argument for STA is harder to cap. You haven’t actually provided evidence that it does anything else but that. So just go CHA if you’re a stat capper.

There’s no further discussion needed here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No where did I claim 25 str is going to significantly impact the leveling process. We are debating amongst the best of minor benefits. Str is the best for rogue. Sta is for magelo. Might as well go CHA if you want a cool balanced magelo. You’ve already agreed with this, since your only argument for STA is harder to cap. You haven’t actually provided evidence that it does anything else but that. So just go CHA if you’re a stat capper.

There’s no further discussion needed here.

This is the problem. You simply say "STR is better", without actually showing why. If you admit the 25 STR doesn't have a significant impact, then it's always going to be better to put points into the starting stat that is harder to cap. You get more benefit for more play hours by doing this. You can't have it both ways and say that STR somehow helps, but it doesn't help, but you need to put your points into it hehe. Again, in the STA vs. CHA debate it comes down to how often Rogues are DI'ed, and I don't think anybody has data for this. I haven't seen it personally.

You spam every thread arguing with people and turning the threads into 20+ pages. It's safe to say, everybody knows your an asshole.

I am not spamming threads, and I am not forcing you to reply with useless posts like this. It is silly to say "people who disagree with me or post more often than I like are assholes". This is nonsense, and lazy. Apparently you think discussions are "spam". I guess you don't understand how forums work.

[Crede]

This is the problem. You simply say "STR is better", without actually showing why. If you admit the 25 STR doesn't have a significant impact, then it's always going to be better to put points into the starting stat that is harder to cap. You get more benefit for more play hours by doing this. You can't have it both ways and say that STR somehow helps, but it doesn't help, but you need to put your points into it hehe.

We have a wiki that explains how STR works, I would advise you to consult that since you don’t seem to understand that :D

And if you are concerned about finding harder stats to cap, then just go CHA! Your logic supports this completely.

There’s nothing wrong with being a magelo hunter if that’s your thing. But that doesn’t make it the most impactful stat simply because it’s the hardest to cap.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We have a wiki that explains how STR works, I would advise you to consult that since you don’t seem to understand that :D

And if you are concerned about finding harder stats to cap, then just go CHA! Your logic supports this completely.

You should probably check the wiki first, since you cannot decide if STR is going to help or not. I understand the stat just fine, and I can show the math of how much STR you can get from items/buffs quite easily. That is why putting points into STR is not a good idea. You can get 235 STR from buffs alone in a raid situation, and 235 + 60 is 295, which is 40 STR over the cap.

You have already admitted that the 25 STR will not be significant during the leveling process, so it doesn't really matter if you have 150 STR or 175 STR during that period.

It doesn't sound like you have anything else to go on here.

[enjchanter]

Imagine meleeing a blue con mob for 39 dmg

[Duik]

OP is prolly lvl 60 by now. Has moved on to next character and will not ask for any advice ever again.
Sorting through this shit to gleen an insight would be a fucking nightmare.

Here's an idea.
Say your piece, just the once. Maybe, just cuz no one is perfect an adendum. Then just stop.
Just for a newbies sanity if nothing else.
Repeating, adnauseum the same fucking advice, then arguing with all and sundry just mudies the water.

In before,
"Im just offering a full answer and this is a discussion forum, afraid of discussion are you" comment from someone.
Setting page count records in every thread is not a worthy goal.

Pick wisdom, level with competent friendly and roleplay groupies and id fucking bet youd be happy as a troll shaman is its own putresence, canibalizing it's own foot for mana.

[Infectious]

This is the problem. You simply say "STR is better", without actually showing why. If you admit the 25 STR doesn't have a significant impact, then it's always going to be better to put points into the starting stat that is harder to cap. You get more benefit for more play hours by doing this. You can't have it both ways and say that STR somehow helps, but it doesn't help, but you need to put your points into it hehe. Again, in the STA vs. CHA debate it comes down to how often Rogues are DI'ed, and I don't think anybody has data for this. I haven't seen it personally.



I am not spamming threads, and I am not forcing you to reply with useless posts like this. It is silly to say "people who disagree with me or post more often than I like are assholes". This is nonsense, and lazy. Apparently you think discussions are "spam". I guess you don't understand how forums work.

You seem to argue with everyone, instead of making your point and moving on. We're you raised by a single mother? Most males that don't have a father role model will grow up acting like their mothers and have to always get the last word in. Ohh and they're always right. Sound like mom?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP is prolly lvl 60 by now. Has moved on to next character and will not ask for any advice ever again.
Sorting through this shit to gleen an insight would be a fucking nightmare.

Here's an idea.
Say your piece, just the once. Maybe, just cuz no one is perfect an adendum. Then just stop.
Just for a newbies sanity if nothing else.
Repeating, adnauseum the same fucking advice, then arguing with all and sundry just mudies the water.

In before,
"Im just offering a full answer and this is a discussion forum, afraid of discussion are you" comment from someone.
Setting page count records in every thread is not a worthy goal.

Pick wisdom, level with competent friendly and roleplay groupies and id fucking bet youd be happy as a troll shaman is its own putresence, canibalizing it's own foot for mana.

It's interesting that nobody else needs to follow the "say your piece once" rule. You have the "rules for thee but not for me" mentality. Why aren't you saying this to everybody else who has been rehashing their argument? Clearly you must notice the multiple posts from Crede, Foritor, etc. who are also doing this.

Singling me out shows that you don't actually care about the "say your piece once" rule, you just want to try and gain the upper hand in a non-standard way, because you cannot back up your point properly.

We are having a discussion, and I am sorry this offends you. It is not my problem that you do not understand the purpose of a forum.

You seem to argue with everyone, instead of making your point and moving on. We're you raised by a single mother? Most males that don't have a father role model will grow up acting like their mothers and have to always get the last word in. Ohh and they're always right. Sound like mom?

Same thing I said to Duik. If you actually cared about the "make your point and move on" idea, you wouldn't be singling me out. Trying to say I am forcing people to respond to me with their same point over and over again is silly. You want me specifically to post once and move on, but you are perfectly fine with other people doing the same thing you are accusing me of.

[bcbrown]

It's interesting that nobody else needs to follow the "say your piece once" rule. You have the "rules for thee but not for me" mentality. Why aren't you saying this to everybody else who has been rehashing their argument? Clearly you must notice the multiple posts from Crede, Foritor, etc. who are also doing this.

You have more posts in this thread than the next three combined:
DeathsSilkyMist 45
Crede 22
Toxigen 13
fortior 8

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You have more posts in this thread than the next three combined:
DeathsSilkyMist 45
Crede 22
Toxigen 13
fortior 8

I am not sure what your point is. I am having discussions with multiple people at the same time. The other posters are mostly responding to me and not other people. So of course they have less posts individually. You should aggregate the data of all the posters responding to me, and you will see it evens out. If three people reply to me 15 times, I would have 45 posts if I responded to each of those replies. The post count would look like: DSM - 45, Poster A - 15, Poster B - 15, Poster C - 15.

Again, this is a forum, and on a forum people have discussions. I did not force multiple people to have a conversation with me. I do not mind having a discussion with multiple people at the same time, but it is a poor attempt at a gotcha to try and use post count in this kind of scenario.

[Duik]

Never mentioned anyone in particular knobend. DSM
That was just generic advice, if we actually wanna help someone, we wouldnt permanently piss in the font of knowledge with repeated similar and defensive comments. Sure, defend your point, that is what we do. But dont confuse defending your point with Needing To Win.

Str, sta at creation, is not really as important as this convoluted shitstorm makes it out to be.
The wisest necro prolly had fun. Maybe not smashing fastest to 60 record. But fucking hilarious.

Tell OP sta is, in YOUR opinion the best option, based on A+B+C. Adendum the shit outa it if you forgot an important point.
But lets not repeatedly shit in our advice pool. This goes for us all. I just now repeated myself about this. See, it does not help!
Im off to melt my own face for mana.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Never mentioned anyone in particular knobend. DSM
That was just generic advice, if we actually wanna help someone, we wouldnt permanently piss in the font of knowledge with repeated similar and defensive comments. Sure, defend your point, that is what we do. But dont confuse defending your point with Needing To Win.

Str, sta at creation, is not really as important as this convoluted shitstorm makes it out to be.
The wisest necro prolly had fun. Maybe not smashing fastest to 60 record. But fucking hilarious.

Tell OP sta is, in YOUR opinion the best option, based on A+B+C. Adendum the shit outa it if you forgot an important point.
But lets not repeatedly shit in our advice pool. This goes for us all. I just now repeated myself about this. See, it does not help!
Im off to melt my own face for mana.

I am not confusing defending my point with needing to win. It is your opinion I am trying to win, but you don't have any evidence to back that up. You could say the same thing about Crede, and it would have equal merit. You are singling me out specifically, and it is silly to claim otherwise. The post history is clear.

The reason why this debate is still going is because the people who are claiming STR is the better starting stat are being logically inconsistent with their claims.

1. The first claim is STR is going to give some tangible benefit to OP if they select it over STA.
2. The second claim is fashion is superior to stats. This implies the STR is not going to give a tangible benefit to OP. That is why you can pick whichever race you want, regardless of their starting stats.

These two claims are at odds, and nobody can explain how they can both be true. If posters think STR will tangibly help, they would suggest that OP picks Barbarian. There is no rule on this forum that stipulates that you cannot suggest a different race than what OP is thinking about, even if you don't expect OP to agree with you. If you were logically consistent with your opinion about STR, you wouldn't have a problem with discussing the merits of Barbarian over Gnome.

My claims have no inconsistencies.

1. STR is easier to cap with gear and buffs than STA.
2. Rogues are group dependent, so you have a higher probability of gaining buffs.
3. STA is harder to cap. Putting your starting stats there is giving you the benefit for more play hours.
4. Capped stats give you no bonus.

I am not sure why an inconsistent set of claims should take priority over a consistent set of claims. If people can properly explain why their claims are not inconsistent, that would be great!

[Ripqozko]

DSM threads are all teh same, bloated nonsense where he repeats a point until he feels like he won. Kittens really went downhill inviting him.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM threads are all teh same, bloated nonsense where he repeats a point until he feels like he won. Kittens really went downhill inviting him.

Ripqozko posts are all the same. You post a few random words that form a "sentence", and everybody proceeds to ignore your posts. Unfortunately you aren't as witty or interesting as you think you are. I hope you change your posting strategy at some point to something more useful. Your current methods are getting stale.

[Ripqozko]

Ripqozko posts are all the same. You post a few random words that form a "sentence", and everybody proceeds to ignore your posts. Unfortunately you aren't as witty or interesting as you think you are. I hope you change your posting strategy at some point to something more useful. Your current methods are getting stale.

see you on page 100

[Croco]

There is no debate that DSM has ever lost. There is no thread where he has not gotten the last word. He has more time than all of us. He checks the forums more than all of us. There is no point trying to debate him. Even if you legitimately think he's wrong about something. It doesn't matter, he will out last you. Everyone would have a better forum experience by just blocking him and calling it good.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is no debate that DSM has ever lost. There is no thread where he has not gotten the last word. He has more time than all of us. He checks the forums more than all of us. There is no point trying to debate him. Even if you legitimately think he's wrong about something. It doesn't matter, he will out last you. Everyone would have a better forum experience by just blocking him and calling it good.

I am not sure why you think posting fan fiction about me is relevant to the discussion. As usual, this is a lame attempt to discredit me when you can't back up your opinion.

If you block someone because they disagree with you, your ideas are probably flimsy to begin with. You require an echo chamber to make yourself feel good, regardless of the truth. I haven't blocked a single user, because I am not afraid of being proven wrong. Your inability to prove your point is not evidence that I cannot be wrong.

[Gloomlord]

I'd feel sorry for DSM...

If we take away the fact he's an arrogant prat who feels he has to always win an argument, even over the most innocuous things.

You weren't right about Shamans being better in a 4 man caster group over Mage, and you're not right about stamina having that big of an impact with a Rogue -- a class that is not meant to tank and doesn't scale that much with stamina compared to the knights and Warrior.

Just grow up for once in your life, child.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'd feel sorry for DSM...

If we take away the fact he's an arrogant prat who feels he has to always win an argument, even over the most innocuous things.

You weren't right about Shamans being better in a 4 man caster group over Mage, and you're not right about stamina having that big of an impact with a Rogue -- a class that is not meant to tank and doesn't scale that much with stamina compared to the knights and Warrior.

Just grow up for once in your life, child.

Spouting nonsense and insults is still irrelevant. This hasn't changed. Do you have anything sensible to contribute to the topic at hand?

You have 400+ posts and the vast majority of them are you trolling and contributing nothing to the conversation. I think you should take your own advise and grow up:) You are the one making yourself look bad, no one else is forcing you to make posts like this.

[Croco]

You seem to argue with everyone, instead of making your point and moving on. We're you raised by a single mother? Most males that don't have a father role model will grow up acting like their mothers and have to always get the last word in. Ohh and they're always right. Sound like mom?

I think you might be spot on with this. The only people I've ever known that absolutely had to have the last word about everything and would refuse to admit being wrong, even when they were wrong, are women.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think you might be spot on with this. The only people I've ever known that absolutely had to have the last word about everything and would refuse to admit being wrong, even when they were wrong, are women.

I am not sure why you think I must admit I am wrong when you haven't proven I am wrong. I have been wrong on this forum before, and admitted as much. This is simply nonsense people use when they can't be bothered to discuss the topic at hand like an adult. It is easy to feel like you have won when you create strawmen.

Other posters in the thread have agreed with my position, so I am not sure why you think this is so cut and dry.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3625122&postcount=15

Gearing to max str at the cost of sta in a world where when it really matters you'll have focus anyways is dumb. Dead melee do zero dps. Dump all those points into stam and don't ever look back.

It seems you are included in the group of people who agree with me lol. Why do I need to admit I am wrong when you agree with me?

[Croco]

On this point yes I agree. You're still insufferable and every thread you decide to post in is worse for it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On this point yes I agree. You're still insufferable and every thread you decide to post in is worse for it.

There is another possibility you don't seem to consider. The people who make the threads insufferable are the people who enjoy posting fan fiction, insults, and trolling.

There would be no need to have threads with hundreds of pages if people could act like adults and admit they are wrong, or provide something more concrete to back up their positions. A lot of this fan fiction about me is simply projection.

You yourself got caught up in some nonsensical attempt to "prove me wrong", when you actually agree with me. Why did you do this?

[Croco]

Nope. It's you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nope. It's you.

"Nope. It's you."

I can do the same thing, and we are at an impasse.

I see you chose to ignore answering my question. Why do you agree with me, but simultaneously think I must admit to being wrong about a point you agree with?

[Croco]

In this thread I don't think you need to admit to being wrong about anything. I agree with your stance of sta being the clear choice. However you are still absolutely awful to interact with, try to have a conversation with, debate, you name it.

I have seen many threads over the years where you were varying degrees of wrong and staunchly refused to even consider the possibility. Have I read every single thread you've posted in? Definitely not. I'd probably be locked in an insane asylum if I even attempted that feat.

That combined with the fact that you categorically refuse to let anyone have the last word on you makes you utterly abominable to deal with for any length of time. You are the antagonist of virtually everyone on this forum. If I actually cared and hated myself slightly more I would go back through your post history to see how many threads you interacted with that ended with you having the last post and then eventually everyone else decides they don't want to continue the conversation and the thread dies. I bet it's a LOT.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In this thread I don't think you need to admit to being wrong about anything. I agree with your stance of sta being the clear choice. However you are still absolutely awful to interact with, try to have a conversation with, debate, you name it.


Thank you for agreeing with me. Your opinion about me is honestly irrelevant to the topic at hand, nor does it help OP. There is no requirement on this forum to be liked by Croco.


I have seen many threads over the years where you were varying degrees of wrong and staunchly refused to even consider the possibility. Have I read every single thread you've posted in? Definitely not. I'd probably be locked in an insane asylum if I even attempted that feat.


Can you show an example of a thread where I was wrong and refused to admit it? Or are you just making up more fan fiction? Remember, simply disagreeing with me while refusing to provide evidence for your position is not an example of me being wrong, or me refusing to admit I am wrong.


That combined with the fact that you categorically refuse to let anyone have the last word on you makes you utterly abominable to deal with for any length of time. You are the antagonist of virtually everyone on this forum. If I actually cared and hated myself slightly more I would go back through your post history to see how many threads you interacted with that ended with you having the last post and then eventually everyone else decides they don't want to continue the conversation and the thread dies. I bet it's a LOT.

This is a popular fan fiction people circulate. As per usual, you are "too lazy" to actually find evidence for these claims. It is easier to repeat this fan fiction until you believe it. You refuse to believe there are other possibilities, such as people who are trolling simply get bored of said trolling. That doesn't mean I need to get the last word in. It shows that people realize they aren't going to win by simply repeating insults over and over. It isn't like people provide evidence and stop posting, while I continue to rant. People devolve into insulting me over and over again, and then get bored.

If you think repeated insults are the proper way to end a discussion, you are simply incorrect.

[Ripqozko]

easy 100 pages from DSM just replying

[Duik]

Popular fan fiction you say?
It is apparent, at even a cursory glace of the posts by others you are in fact disliked at best, reviled by many. So this fan fiction of yours is the only fiction we have.
Croco even agrees with you and STILL you do not relent.

So kudos! You were correct. And still, the sole reason for this post was some simple advice on sta or str at creation, with a few simple caveats, but still the thread gets muddied to the point that it is no use to anyone.
Even if sta was the best choice, i doubt anyone cares.
There, im last poster.

[fortior]

Lol this thread is still going and he even brought up casting divine intervention on a rogue. There is no way this dude actually plays p99, he just forum quests all day.

[Crede]

You should probably check the wiki first, since you cannot decide if STR is going to help or not. I understand the stat just fine, and I can show the math of how much STR you can get from items/buffs quite easily. That is why putting points into STR is not a good idea. You can get 235 STR from buffs alone in a raid situation, and 235 + 60 is 295, which is 40 STR over the cap.

You have already admitted that the 25 STR will not be significant during the leveling process, so it doesn't really matter if you have 150 STR or 175 STR during that period.

It doesn't sound like you have anything else to go on here.

Your logic supports going CHA. You have yet to provide a real, valid argument that STA offers any benefit to a rogue over strength. The fact that sta is harder to cap than str means absolutely nothing because you could then just focus on CHA. To prove the value of STA you’d have to show that that extra hp somehow mattered to rogue survivability. Otherwise it’s just a waste, and you’d be better off capping CHA if you’re chasing hard to cap stats.

The fact of the matter remains that strength will provide a better short term benefit than sta will. If you want to cap as much as possible, then go cha over sta. Choosing STA is like this weird middle tier where you’ve raided enough to cap str easily but you haven’t capped sta yet. It doesn’t really fit into any category. It’s like “min max lite”.

OP probably went strength on their gnome, and would have been smart to do so. If they went sta, it’s not the end of the world, but I can guarantee you will feel the benefits of starting str more than starting sta. Starting sta is a magelo stat when you want to feel warm and cozy about staring at your max hp pool. You actually will have no idea if it provided a benefit to you. My Sk went stamina. I honestly didn’t come across a single situation where I was glad I went stamina, and that’s a tank class, not a dps class.

[fortior]

Melee classes and hybrids are a bit weird. A lot of your dps is mana-free, so you ideally want to be pulling/DPSing with as high an uptime as possible. The reason warriors want as much HP as possible is because of CH and because the toughest mobs in the game (the only mobs requiring a warrior tank basically) deal absurd amounts of damage per round.

There are some tough encounters where you'd want lots of health on a tank too, like if you're breaking into planes or doing nasty pulls with a bunch of caster mobs. However it's much less of a requirement than for someone tanking AoW or tunare for example.

For everything else in the game, aka constant pulls of blue mobs, stats which provide a continuous benefit are going to be more useful than a stat which doesn't really do anything as long as you stay alive. For knights, who don't tank the hardest mobs anyway, you could definitely make an argument for something other than stamina. On high sta race warriors, I'm a fan of dexterity

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Popular fan fiction you say?
It is apparent, at even a cursory glace of the posts by others you are in fact disliked at best, reviled by many. So this fan fiction of yours is the only fiction we have.
Croco even agrees with you and STILL you do not relent.

So kudos! You were correct. And still, the sole reason for this post was some simple advice on sta or str at creation, with a few simple caveats, but still the thread gets muddied to the point that it is no use to anyone.
Even if sta was the best choice, i doubt anyone cares.
There, im last poster.

Thank you for proving my point. You post insults and nonsense and feel hurt if you are not the last poster. Lol what a strange viewpoint.

Lol this thread is still going and he even brought up casting divine intervention on a rogue. There is no way this dude actually plays p99, he just forum quests all day.

As per usual, you didn't read what I said. I said that CHA could be useful if DI'ing Rogues became the meta. I didn't say it was the meta, and I haven't seen it done. You are very good at making yourself look foolish, and it would only take you 30 extra seconds of reading to spare you this trouble.

Your logic supports going CHA. You have yet to provide a real, valid argument that STA offers any benefit to a rogue over strength. The fact that sta is harder to cap than str means absolutely nothing because you could then just focus on CHA. To prove the value of STA you’d have to show that that extra hp somehow mattered to rogue survivability. Otherwise it’s just a waste, and you’d be better off capping CHA if you’re chasing hard to cap stats.

The fact of the matter remains that strength will provide a better short term benefit than sta will. If you want to cap as much as possible, then go cha over sta. Choosing STA is like this weird middle tier where you’ve raided enough to cap str easily but you haven’t capped sta yet. It doesn’t really fit into any category. It’s like “min max lite”.

OP probably went strength on their gnome, and would have been smart to do so. If they went sta, it’s not the end of the world, but I can guarantee you will feel the benefits of starting str more than starting sta. Starting sta is a magelo stat when you want to feel warm and cozy about staring at your max hp pool. You actually will have no idea if it provided a benefit to you.

STA does offer an actual benefit. You get more HP and it is a stat that is harder to cap. I am not sure why you keep having to make stuff up in order to try and win. Max HP is useful on all classes. I am not saying it is the end-all-be-all, but trying to claim it is no value is silly. As I said above, CHA would only make sense if Rogues were DI'ed frequently. Otherwise STA is better.

No where did I claim 25 str is going to significantly impact the leveling process. We are debating amongst the best of minor benefits.

You have already admitted STR does not provide a significant impact to OP's leveling process. I am not sure what you are arguing when you agree with me. If it does not have a significant impact, why would OP notice it? He has 20k worth of gear to get him to a reasonable amount of carry capacity.

You put points into STA because you get more benefit from it over a longer period of play time. You have more hours of play where your STA is not capped. Getting STR capped is much easier, and will occur more often. It is trivial to cap STR in a raid. You will have a Shaman present for FoS + Maniacal Strength. If you don't like having both of those buffs, your preference is irrelevant. In a group you don't need 255 STR to put out good DPS.


My Sk went stamina. I honestly didn’t come across a single situation where I was glad I went stamina, and that’s a tank class, not a dps class


As for your SK, you probably should have gone INT. That stat is harder to cap than STA with Velious gear. Since Rogues don't have a mana pool, they have less stats to choose from, that is why STA becomes the next best stat, as it is harder to cap.

[Gloomlord]

Melee classes and hybrids are a bit weird. A lot of your dps is mana-free, so you ideally want to be pulling/DPSing with as high an uptime as possible. The reason warriors want as much HP as possible is because of CH and because the toughest mobs in the game (the only mobs requiring a warrior tank basically) deal absurd amounts of damage per round.

There are some tough encounters where you'd want lots of health on a tank too, like if you're breaking into planes or doing nasty pulls with a bunch of caster mobs. However it's much less of a requirement than for someone tanking AoW or tunare for example.

For everything else in the game, aka constant pulls of blue mobs, stats which provide a continuous benefit are going to be more useful than a stat which doesn't really do anything as long as you stay alive. For knights, who don't tank the hardest mobs anyway, you could definitely make an argument for something other than stamina. On high sta race warriors, I'm a fan of dexterity

In my opinion, as a Paladin player, the longer it takes before CH is in efficient range the better. So, I think stamina is the best choice unless you've started on a completely new server, then it's strength. In a developed server, you'll easily gain access the weight reduction bags and plentiful strength.

If you're playing the class like you're supposed to, which is being an excellent group tank, then charisma and wisdom won't be needed much.

All the melee classes get a mediocre scaling with stamina, and you want to maximise and ease your way to 255 strength as soon as you can as Rogue, so why does it matter if you go stamina? Unless you're in the top end guilds that can easily acquire the best gear in the game in short order, extra stamina is pointless on a Rogue.

[fortior]

By the way if you want to see the effect of whatever stat on dps, you can use https://jklein.me/eqcalc/ or one of the ready-made spreadsheets. Going from 230->255 str is about 4 dps, which is just as much as going from 15->16 damage on your main hand (just non-backstab damage, obviously 16 main hand damage on a rogue would be bonkers).

The effect at lower levels is more pronounced--that is to say, I believe 25 str will net you about 2-4 dps using most calculators at any point, but that value obviously matters more when you're doing 20 dps versus when you're pulling 80. Note that str also increases your chance to hit as well as your max backstab damage, which these calculators can't really effectively estimate since a lot of to-hit chance depends on the type of mob you're hitting. It's a pretty stable, continuous benefit throughout your dpsing life. Best to get it out of the way asap when playing dps, though on a leveling monk I could see not maxing it instantly with minor twinking gear since you want to stay under the weight limit, which is quite restrictive at lower levels. On a rogue you should be at 255 str at all times though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All the melee classes get a mediocre scaling with stamina, and you want to maximise and ease your way to 255 strength as soon as you can as Rogue, so why does it matter if you go stamina? Unless you're in the top end guilds that can easily acquire the best gear in the game in short order, extra stamina is pointless on a Rogue.

Why does it matter if you go STR when you are capped on STR? I have posted multiple times how easy it is to cap your STR with EC gear and buffs. The logic is simple: Having +100 HP is better than having 300 STR instead of 275 STR. You get zero benefit from both of those STR numbers.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3625136&postcount=18

Here is a simple list to get you +100 STR without filling all your slots. Your Gnome Rogue will have 160 STR without buffs. They will be capped with buffs. If you are simply in a group, you don't need 255 STR to output good DPS. I have never seen a group kick a Rogue because they had 160 STR instead of 185 STR.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:GnomeRogueTest - Here is a Magelo someone else made showing how Gnome Rogues with 60 STR will cap on their STR with only FoS. The only difficult piece to get on that Magelo is Strength of the Elements, and you can make up the strength by simply swapping the Coldain Gloves for Gauntlets of Potence.

Note that str also increases your chance to hit

This is incorrect. STR simply increases the maximum damage you can roll. There is no worn stat that can increase your chance to hit.

[Croco]

This is a popular fan fiction people circulate. As per usual, you are "too lazy" to actually find evidence for these claims. It is easier to repeat this fan fiction until you believe it. You refuse to believe there are other possibilities, such as people who are trolling simply get bored of said trolling. That doesn't mean I need to get the last word in. It shows that people realize they aren't going to win by simply repeating insults over and over. It isn't like people provide evidence and stop posting, while I continue to rant. People devolve into insulting me over and over again, and then get bored.

If you think repeated insults are the proper way to end a discussion, you are simply incorrect.

I went through your last 250 posts. Roughly 20 threads. I left out posts in the EC forum. Of those 20 threads 9 of them are either you getting the last post or the next to last post where the person who posts after you is responding or saying something completely off topic to what you said so as to make it unnecessary for you to reply to them. Similarly a few of them have a post by you then 3-4 posts from other people again usually either agreeing with you or completely off topic to what you were arguing about. Negating the need for you to respond back.

9 out of 20 threads. You have approaching 5k posts but you tend to post A LOT in the threads you do post in. I could continue to search the entirety of your post history to get a pin point accurate number of threads that you had to have the last word in (or there abouts taking into account the caveats I listed above) but (a) I don't care enough to thoroughly prove this point, (b) I have better things to do with my life, and (c) you would just disagree with the data and the conclusions I drew.

I'm also not going to post links to any of these threads that I found because I have no interest in getting into a tit for tat pissing match with you about whether you agree with my findings or not. For all intents and purposes the threads I saw combined with the experiences of a lot of people on these forums speak for themselves.

[fortior]

This is incorrect. STR simply increases the maximum damage you can roll. There is no worn stat that can increase your chance to hit.

Yeah, my mistake. It's just skill which impacts the initial roll to miss/hit. STR increases ATK to the cap of 255 str which impacts the chance to max hit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I went through your last 250 posts. Roughly 20 threads. I left out posts in the EC forum. Of those 20 threads 9 of them are either you getting the last post or the next to last post where the person who posts after you is responding or saying something completely off topic to what you said so as to make it unnecessary for you to reply to them. Similarly a few of them have a post by you then 3-4 posts from other people again usually either agreeing with you or completely off topic to what you were arguing about. Negating the need for you to respond back.

9 out of 20 threads. You have approaching 5k posts but you tend to post A LOT in the threads you do post in. I could continue to search the entirety of your post history to get a pin point accurate number of threads that you had to have the last word in (or there abouts taking into account the caveats I listed above) but (a) I don't care enough to thoroughly prove this point, (b) I have better things to do with my life, and (c) you would just disagree with the data and the conclusions I drew.

I'm also not going to post links to any of these threads that I found because I have no interest in getting into a tit for tat pissing match with you about whether you agree with my findings or not. For all intents and purposes the threads I saw combined with the experiences of a lot of people on these forums speak for themselves.

Please post the threads you are referring to. Did you leave out the people who were simply insulting others and posting nonsense? I am not sure why you think people getting bored of trolling equates to me getting the last word. I am sorry, but saying "I have the evidence, I just don't want to show it", is a silly excuse lol.

[Croco]

Please post the threads you are referring to. Did you leave out the people who were simply insulting others and posting nonsense? I am not sure why you think people getting bored of trolling equates to me getting the last word. I am sorry, but saying "I have the evidence, I just don't want to show it", is a silly excuse lol.

You are free to search through your own post history to see all the threads I saw. There are lots. I'm not going to debate you. I have more interesting things to do with my life. I already regret the 20 or so minutes I spent looking through 10 pages of your most recent posts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are free to search through your own post history to see all the threads I saw. There are lots. I'm not going to debate you. I have more interesting things to do with my life. I already regret the 20 or so minutes I spent looking through 10 pages of your most recent posts.

Thank you for admitting that you have no ability to prove your claims. I am sorry, but simply claiming something and saying "the proof is out there, I don't need to provide it", is nonsense.

You seem all too eager to respond to me when you keep saying you have more interesting things to do. Is that you "trying to get the last word" too? Unlike yourself, I won't make that kind of silly claim for no reason.

If you stop responding to me, and this is the last post, it isn't because I "wanted to get the last word". It is because I am challenging you to provide evidence for your claims. It sounds like you refuse to provide said evidence, so this challenge will go unfulfilled.

[Croco]

Oh I have no doubt you don't do things for no reason. The reasons you post are very clear for anyone to see. I admitted no such thing but you absolutely love jumping to conclusions and putting words in peoples mouths that they never said. You do it constantly.

I will not step up and fulfill your challenge. On this you can stand tall and be proud that I'm not willing to waste that kind of time on you. I'm perfectly able to prove my claims. The evidence is there. I've explained to you where I looked and what my methods are. I'm not willing to catch the fish and present them to you. If you would like to fish you are welcome to do so.

Unlike you I do not care about getting the last word but I will respond when you willfully misrepresent something I said and twist it into something else. Another thing you do constantly.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh I have no doubt you don't do things for no reason. The reasons you post are very clear for anyone to see. I admitted no such thing but you absolutely love jumping to conclusions and putting words in peoples mouths that they never said. You do it constantly.

I will not step up and fulfill your challenge. On this you can stand tall and be proud that I'm not willing to waste that kind of time on you. I'm perfectly able to prove my claims. The evidence is there. I've explained to you where I looked and what my methods are. I'm not willing to catch the fish and present them to you. If you would like to fish you are welcome to do so.

Unlike you I do not care about getting the last word but I will respond when you willfully misrepresent something I said and twist it into something else. Another thing you do constantly.

Ah, so it isn't "getting the last word" if you try to correct a misrepresentation. Can that apply to my posts as well? Or do you have another double standard ready at hand? It's amazing that when I get the last word, it's a problem. When you get the last word, it is correcting a misrepresentation.

I am not putting words in your mouth or misrepresenting you. You admitted you can't prove it with your excuses. Saying "I can prove it but I don't want to" is admitting you can't prove it. If you could prove it, you would prove it.

What is happening is you have a bias against me. You are looking for things that you want to fit your narrative, rather than things that actually fit your narrarive. You understand that this will be revealed if you post your "proof", which is why you don't post it.

The best you can hope for is people will simply believe you. This isn't a clever strategy. You do not get to act as judge, jury, and executioner.

Post your proof, or admit you can't.

[Croco]

I am not putting words in your mouth or misrepresenting you.

You do this with incredible consistency to a fuck ton of people on these forums. I said I would respond to you if you misrepresented me. I didn't say I would try to get the last word if you did so. You don't need to make inferences or read between the lines or try and figure out what I mean from what I'm saying. I speak plainly and I'll tell you exactly what I'm saying and what I mean.

You can choose to interpret what I said as excuses if you want. The truth is that all your posts are there for anyone to see. I'm not going to waste my life going through all 4500+ of them. I did a simple spot check of your last 250 and saw exactly what I thought I would see. You are not worth wasting time on. There is nothing to be gained from doing that. I don't care if you think there's no evidence or not. It's all there plain to see if anyone chooses to go and relive all of your inane drivel.

I'm not trying to convince anyone and I'm not attempting to be clever. You use that word a lot though so I'm thinking being clever is extremely important to you, but who knows I could be wrong maybe you just like that word so you use it all the time. My only bias against you is that you're annoying and I wish you just simply didn't exist on the forums. 90% of the time you add nothing of value to the threads you post in. 5% of the time you rehash and consolidate things that people have already said in the thread, so whether that is valuable is up to the eye of the beholder.

It's very clear that I'm far from the only one that has these opinions. Most people are just so tired by your constant misrepresentation and having to get the last word and twisting the things they say that they just stop engaging with you. To be honest I have a hard time thinking I'll ever engage you in conversation in this forum after this thread.

You don't get to decide what I will or won't do. I've already stated the evidence is there and where to find it, I'm not even telling people they have to leave this specific website. I will not admit that I can't and your attempts to spin me as doing so by way of other things I've said or actions I've taken are incorrect. I've chosen the 3rd option which is you're not worth my time.

Feel free to continue to one up me and/or get the last word in. My traitorous brain has already compelled me to waste way more time on this garbage conversation than I should. I will waste no further time on you. I truly hope you find peace and happiness in this world somewhere off of these forums.

[Pint]

Y'all are doing God's work. It's clear that DSM feeds off of chain posting and defending bad advice and y'all are sustaining and nourishing his addiction.

[Toxigen]

5+ people all with different but good reasons why to go STR and DSM keeps yammering his idealist end-game only bullshit.

[Baldwooky]

Other people believe stamina is better, however the caveats are:
#1 You plan on top end raiding
#2 we still pay attention to this thread which is just DSM hijacked, and not worth replying.

Easy to cap Str, not easy to cap Stam. Its an easy choice for me as a melee main.
Stam lets you stay engaged in AoE fights longer, thats more DPS. Ripping agro off the tank due to poor play and having 100hp won't help. Regular group content, you probably won't even notice. 25 str is 3.7% more damage.

Str isn't worth the points, cause you can max it super cheap or easy. You can never max HP, a rogue would have a very hard time capping stam in full velious raid gear unbuffed. A twink rogue could realistically and viably max str with droppable gear for relatively cheap.

Overall effect on your character if you don't plan on being a raider or have access to the best equipment is minimal.

If you do have access, going STR will harm you in end in that you already have it maxed, any gains won't be seen. But the amount is so low, that player skill and ping delay can make up for it and youll likely see more gains from str during the leveling and grouping time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Croco, you spent a bunch of time writing paragraphs that say the same thing. You admit you can't provide proof for your claims about me. While you keep saying you don't care about the last word, and you have better things to do, you keep posting. Please stop projecting your own issues on to me. Nobody cares about your silly opinions about me, so please stop wasting peoples time. You are hijacking the thread.

I am not sure how I hijack threads. I never start this or bring up other threads. People attack me for no reason, and I defend myself. The simple solution is to grow up and stop attacking people. I am not sure why you think attacking other posters is proof your opinion is correct.

The truth is still that STA is the better stat for your starting stats, as it is harder to cap. STR is easy to cap in both raid and group play. Rogues do not need 255 STR in groups, and groups will not kick you for having 150 STR instead of 175 STR.

OP has 20k worth of twink gear. We are not discussing a character who has no money and items. In that specific case of having no money or gear, you could argue for STR.

[Toxigen]

Its my STR, and I want it now!

[Duik]

Its so cute DSM thinks I wanna actually be last poster. Lolocaust.
It was pure bait, to bring out a last poster and it works. Its an imperative. Compulsive.
But alas, others also just need to post ANYTHING and DSM must, absolutely must post again.
My work here is done cuz anyone else here can elicit a response from Don'tSpamMe.

So, good luck with everything.
The answer is clearly Dex or Agi, but only if ya wanna min/MAX correctly. All else is just fluff.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Its so cute DSM thinks I wanna actually be last poster. Lolocaust.
It was pure bait, to bring out a last poster and it works. Its an imperative. Compulsive.
But alas, others also just need to post ANYTHING and DSM must, absolutely must post again.
My work here is done cuz anyone else here can elicit a response from Don'tSpamMe.

So, good luck with everything.
The answer is clearly Dex or Agi, but only if ya wanna min/MAX correctly. All else is just fluff.

You keep posting nonsense, so I am not sure why you think this is proof of anything other than you are a troll.

DEX is also easily cappable, as FoS gives DEX too. As does Avatar. AGI does next to nothing above 75, so that is bad advise. You don't see anybody telling people to dump everything into AGI on any class. You put points into AGI if your race is under 75 AGI, until you hit 75 AGI. Thats the only scenario where you put anything in to AGI.

The answer is still STA for your starting stats as a Rogue for OP. If you have zero items and plat, STR can be a good choice to help build up your wealth a bit faster.

[Duik]

Bingo!

[Crede]

You keep posting nonsense, so I am not sure why you think this is proof of anything other than you are a troll.

DEX is also easily cappable, as FoS gives DEX too. As does Avatar. AGI does next to nothing above 75, so that is bad advise. You don't see anybody telling people to dump everything into AGI on any class. You put points into AGI if your race is under 75 AGI, until you hit 75 AGI. Thats the only scenario where you put anything in to AGI.

The answer is still STA for your starting stats as a Rogue for OP. If you have zero items and plat, STR can be a good choice to help build up your wealth a bit faster.

Stamina can be capped in velious gear with and without buffs

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BiS_Rogue_Elf

Saying it’s hard to cap is not necessarily a reason to pick it.

Charisma is the hardest stat to cap. It is the min max stat, there’s no debate about this. The choice of what op should do falls into 3 categories.

STR - casual player/raider - most noticeable throughout leveling/grouping/not having to rely on buffs to cap str
STA - semi casual/frequent raider - nice bonus when you easily Cap strength after raiding for awhile
CHA - hardcore raider who can easily cap sta with buffs and eventually unbuffed and still wants more stat gains

Go ahead and try to tell me STA is more useful than CHA. Doesn’t matter. This is all objectively true if all you care about is end game stats. The majority of people will never even reach the second tier. Which is why most of us have recommended STR.

[Toxigen]

wort pots > STA

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Stamina can be capped in velious gear with and without buffs

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BiS_Rogue_Elf

Saying it’s hard to cap is not necessarily a reason to pick it.

Charisma is the hardest stat to cap. It is the min max stat, there’s no debate about this. The choice of what op should do falls into 3 categories.

STR - casual player/raider - most noticeable throughout leveling/grouping/not having to rely on buffs to cap str
STA - semi casual/frequent raider - nice bonus when you easily Cap strength after raiding for awhile
CHA - hardcore raider who can easily cap sta with buffs and eventually unbuffed and still wants more stat gains

Go ahead and try to tell me STA is more useful than CHA. Doesn’t matter. This is all objectively true if all you care about is end game stats.

I didn't say STA couldn't be capped. I said it is harder to cap, and that is true. You can only buff STA by +50 via Riotous Health. You can buff STR by +235 and DEX by +220 via FoS + Avatar + Maniacal Strength + Mortal Deftness. You are going to cap STR in EC gear, long before you get raid gear. It's really not difficult to show item lists that prove this, https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3625136&postcount=18 and https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:GnomeRogueTest have been posted repeatedly.

The reason why I am not suggesting CHA is because that hinges on the assumption that Rogues get Divine Intervention cast on them. I haven't seen this in the past raid metas, and I don't see the spell cast in XP groups. If you want to provide proof that Rogues are being Divine Interventioned often, I would be happy to agree with you.

Until you provide evidence for that, however, STA is the better choice. If Divine Intervention is not being cast on you, CHA is not helping you in any way other than slightly better vendor prices.

As I said before, STR can be a good choice for just about any class if you plan on playing a character that starts off fresh, no plat or items. You will probably be leveling and acquiring wealth slower in this scenario, so having more carry capacity while you have no items is not a bad idea.

OP has 20k to spend, so they do not fall into the category of starting with no items and money. OP can get all the STR and WR bags they need to level to 60 just fine. STA is the correct choice for OP.

The majority of people will never even reach the second tier. Which is why most of us have recommended STR.

If you are the type of player that gets to level 30 and stops, don't worry about starting stats. It isn't going to matter. You can dump your points into WIS if you want. The game is designed to make mobs levels 1-39 much easier than mobs 40+, so you don't need to min/max the level range that you are XPing off of those mobs.

[Crede]

I didn't say STA couldn't be capped. I said it is harder to cap, and that is true. You can only buff STA by +50 via Riotous Health. You can buff STR by +235 and DEX by +220 via FoS + Avatar + Maniacal Strength + Mortal Deftness. You are going to cap STR in EC gear, long before you get raid gear. It's really not difficult to show item lists that prove this, https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3625136&postcount=18 and https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:GnomeRogueTest have been posted repeatedly.

The reason why I am not suggesting CHA is because that hinges on the assumption that Rogues get Divine Intervention cast on them. I haven't seen this in the past raid metas, and I don't see the spell cast in XP groups. If you want to provide proof that Rogues are being Divine Interventioned often, I would be happy to agree with you.

Until you provide evidence for that, however, STA is the better choice. If Divine Intervention is not being cast on you, CHA is not helping you in any way other than slightly better vendor prices.

As I said before, STR can be a good choice for just about any class if you plan on playing a character that starts off fresh, no plat or items. You will probably be leveling and acquiring wealth slower in this scenario, so having more carry capacity while you have no items is not a bad idea.

OP has 20k to spend, so they do not fall into the category of starting with no items and money. OP can get all the STR and WR bags they need to level to 60 just fine. STA is the correct choice for OP.

The DI Meta doesn’t mean shit. Cha is harder to cap than Sta, PERIOD.

You keep dragging these threads on because you think there’s a right answer. There isn’t. It’s entirely up to the OP how they play the game which one will “matter” even though none of them really do.

I’ve wasted enough time, OP probably stopped reading pages ago and chose STR.

This will be my last reply, enjoy wasting more time here!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The DI Meta doesn’t mean shit. Cha is harder to cap than Sta, PERIOD.

You keep dragging these threads on because you think there’s a right answer. There isn’t. It’s entirely up to the OP how they play the game which one will “matter” even though none of them really do.

I’ve wasted enough time, OP probably stopped reading pages ago and chose STR.

This will be my last reply, enjoy wasting more time here!

INT is also harder to cap with Rogue gear, but I don't see you suggesting it. The only reason CHA could be a viable option is due to Divine Intervention. I haven't seen evidence to suggest Rogues are Divine Interventioned with any frequency, so I do not suggest dumping into CHA.

The game is based on rules and math. There is a statistically superior answer objectively speaking. Saying there isn't is simply not true.

It is generally bad practice to put your points in to a starting stat simply for temporary gains while leveling. You end up wasting the points in the long run, and that is objectively true. This is a long game, and people change their minds. Even if you don't plan on reaching level 60, that doesn't mean you won't level your character to 60 eventually. It's better to plan for the endgame, even if you don't reach it.

STA is going to be the better choice for Rogues most of the time objectively speaking based on the stat distribution of items and buffs in the game. If this character is specifically starting off with no items or money, that is the situation where the STR can be a good choice if you want to save time early on. OP does not fall into this category, so STA is the answer for them. They can certainly choose to do something else, but that isn't relevant to the discussion. There is no requirement for OP to listen to anybody.

[Jimjam]

wort pots > STA

25 str is carry capacity for 1kpp, 250pp worth of combine weapons or 25pp of fine steel.

Imo str lets you earn a lot more between vendoring/vendor banking/proper banking.

Whats the cost on a wort charge again?

Maybe it is worth considering extra worts earned vs potential sta hp lost.

[fortior]

People attack me for no reason

lmao

[Toxigen]

25 str is carry capacity for 1kpp, 250pp worth of combine weapons or 25pp of fine steel.

Imo str lets you earn a lot more between vendoring/vendor banking/proper banking.

Whats the cost on a wort charge again?

Maybe it is worth considering extra worts earned vs potential sta hp lost.

i like where your heads at jimbo

[Ripqozko]

Easiest 100 page thread

[Vexenu]

DSM, you are correct to say that STA is harder to cap. You are also correct to say that +25 STR provides relatively limited "lifetime character value" (Let's call this LCV and define it as the sum value added by the stat over the entire /played lifetime of the character). But your error is in the failure to recognize that +25 STA provides an even lower LCV than does +25 STR.

This can be proven with simple logic. The primary and almost singular purpose of the Rogue class is to do melee DPS. The vast, vast majority of a Rogue's productive playtime will be spent attacking mobs. Because of this, even a trivial amount of extra STR will provide a noticeable LCV gain over the long term. Further, added STR will provide the non-combat benefit of higher carrying capacity.

In contrast, the benefit of additional HP provided by +25 STA is only felt when the Rogue is taking damage so significant that he is on the very edge of death. Most deaths in EQ, especially among experienced players, are of the sort where a small amount of extra HP would not have helped to prevent a death. This is even more true for Rogues, who are not a tank class and who rely primarily on resist gear on raids to stay alive.

In summary, while it is true that +25 STR provides minor and unnecessary benefits, those benefits are still greater than those provided by +25 STA, making STR the clear choice.

[Snaggles]

Technically 80 hps gives a bigger fuel tank when raiding before you get to blood aggro but we are splitting hairs with a straight razor.

Since this thread is officially nuked, new angle:
OP, you really want to make a ranger. Fun and underrated class!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, you are correct to say that STA is harder to cap. You are also correct to say that +25 STR provides relatively limited "lifetime character value" (Let's call this LCV and define it as the sum value added by the stat over the entire /played lifetime of the character). But your error is in the failure to recognize that +25 STA provides an even lower LCV than does +25 STR.

This can be proven with simple logic. The primary and almost singular purpose of the Rogue class is to do melee DPS. The vast, vast majority of a Rogue's productive playtime will be spent attacking mobs. Because of this, even a trivial amount of extra STR will provide a noticeable LCV gain over the long term. Further, added STR will provide the non-combat benefit of higher carrying capacity.

In contrast, the benefit of additional HP provided by +25 STA is only felt when the Rogue is taking damage so significant that he is on the very edge of death. Most deaths in EQ, especially among experienced players, are of the sort where a small amount of extra HP would not have helped to prevent a death. This is even more true for Rogues, who are not a tank class and who rely primarily on resist gear on raids to stay alive.

In summary, while it is true that +25 STR provides minor and unnecessary benefits, those benefits are still greater than those provided by +25 STA, making STR the clear choice.

I disagree that the STR will provide any noticeable benefit to OP, who has 20k worth of gear. There are a few simple reasons for this:

1. With 20k you can get enough STR and Weight Reduction bags to carry whatever you need. I leveled a Monk from 1-51 with 140 STR and no Tink Bags. I was able to pick up everything and sell it just fine. Remember that Monks and Rogues have sneak, so they have more options in general when it comes to finding merchants. Rogues are a group class too, so unless the group is giving all the loot to the Rogue, you are also acquiring loot at a slower rate. This further reduces the need for high strength and weight reduction. In a group you also have a higher chance of pairing with a class that has a STR buff, SoW, Ports, etc. This means it isn't as difficult to go to and from merchants.

2. The DPS gain from 25 STR when you are not capped is unnoticeable in group content. The biggest boost you are getting in terms of DPS is a good ratio weapon and a haste item. I have never seen a player booted from a group because they did not match some arbitrary DPS check. You and your group are not going to notice 25 less STR when looking at DPS.

3. STR is very easy to cap when you start to raid. Maniacal Strength + Focus of Spirit gives you 135 STR. You don't need a Primal weapon, you only need +60 Strength from gear on a Gnome Rogue to cap STR in a raid. This is easy to achieve with EC gear. Dispelling mobs hurt your DPS mostly by dispelling Haste, not Strength Buffs, so that is a moot point. Personal preference on not wanting to take Maniacal Strength is also irrelevant. Shamans can handle buffing you with Maniacal Strength. If you choose to lower your DPS due to preference, that is your fault.

4. Uncapped STA will provide an HP bonus for more hours of play. Dying = 0 DPS. It is important to not die in raids. In groups the extra HP isn't going to matter much, I agree. But as I said in number 2, neither is the STR.

You want to put your points into the harder to cap stat, as getting some benefit for more hours of play is greater than zero benefit due to stat caps. As I have stated before, STR can be a good idea for characters that have no starting money or items.

[Toxigen]

jesus fuckin christ

[Cecily]

Lot of bad advice. +5 STR +25 STA is the better long term build. You need 187 STR to cap with Manical. You need 188 STR to cap with Focus. Those are your targets. They are pretty easy to hit with the right (+STA) build. Going +25 STR handicaps you lv 45+ when those buffs are available. +STR was fine in Kunark. It's the wrong choice in Velious.


jesus fuckin christ
You're either trolling DSM or bleeding heart over think of the poor new player which is wrong because that char has no room to develop after STR cap. Getting new STR stuff is fun. Being overcapped on STR is not fun.

Cecily on Blue was a +25 str Wood Elf and that was a good choice because Kunark lasted forever and I got a lot of use out it for resist swaps. I mained a +5 STR Dark Elf on Green and have had zero issues. We're playing in an expansion where you can get +17 STR between your gloves and boots for 1k.

[Cecily]

This is a low investment dark elf rogue template (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Green:Twink) using a +5 STR + 25 STA build.


Buffed STR overcap point = lv 46 (epic) = 197 STR with Ragebringer.
And there's plenty of room for improvement.

[Vexenu]

Overcapping STR is entirely a choice until late Velious. +25 STR allows you greater flexibility with gearing for resists. If you think that starting with lower STR makes it more fun to raid and acquire new STR gear, that's more your personal preference/motivation than anything else. There's also the fundamental reality that the extra HP from the added STA will be functionally useless for 99.999% of your playtime, while STR is always paying dividends, even if it just means not having to delete your gold to avoid encumbrance. That, along with higher base melee damage unbuffed, is a real, value-added benefit across then board, whereas extra HP is useful only in extremely marginal and rare cases.

[Cecily]

That's a great point, in Kunark. STA is the right choice for a character you're taking to 60. In the dirt gear I linked above, the character will overcap STR with a shaman in about a month of casual play.

[Toxigen]

That's a great point, in Kunark. STA is the right choice for a character you're taking to 60. In the dirt gear I linked above, the character will overcap STR with a shaman in about a month of casual play.

lol 1 month of casual play

hahahahahahahaa

no

[Cecily]

lol 1 month of casual play

hahahahahahahaa

no
2? 3? People play this game for years. You should advise people on things that will benefit them long term.

[AEH84]

This is great. Over 200 posts and I still can't get passed the character creation screen lol

[Cecily]

Any race. +5 str +25 sta. Human / Dark Elf / Gnome have a relatively hard to get robe option (https://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky) other races don't have access to if you join a raid guild.
I don't think masks should factor into your decision. Pick something you like the look of. Hope this helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Any race. +5 str +25 sta. Human / Dark Elf / Gnome have a relatively hard to get robe option (https://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky) other races don't have access to if you join a raid guild.
I don't think masks should factor into your decision. Pick something you like the look of. Hope this helps.

Agreed.

This is great. Over 200 posts and I still can't get passed the character creation screen lol

I am sorry your thread got trolled by the usual suspects. Hopefully they will learn one day that simply posting insults over and over is not a method of discussion.

+5 STR and +25 STA is the way to go.

[Cecily]

To answer your other questions..

Yes, get an inexpensive haste item. It won't be super long before you have your epic. Seb dirk is my favorite leveling dagger. They're cheap and high damage. Good offhand after epic as well.

[Vexenu]

That's a great point, in Kunark. STA is the right choice for a character you're taking to 60. In the dirt gear I linked above, the character will overcap STR with a shaman in about a month of casual play.

POISON 72
MAGIC 49
DISEASE 18
FIRE 34
COLD 54

NGMI with these resists.

STA is literally only useful to a Rogue in the few edge cases where you survive a fight with <100 HP, and such encounters are vanishingly few in number. For the vast, overwhelming majority of your playtime on a Rogue, you have no need of those extra hit points. In contrast, you are benefiting from STR literally every time you play the character, from 1-60 and beyond. This is most evident pre-Velious, but even if you cap STR unbuffed in Velious with high end raid gear... who cares? That just means you can prioritize more HP and resist pieces of gear. The extra 100 HP from STA is still basically never going to make a difference. It's just Magelo e-peen points, as was said.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The extra 100 HP from STA is still basically never going to make a difference. It's just Magelo e-peen points, as was said.

Please provide evidence other than simply saying this is true.

Unlike yourself, Cecily and myself can provide the numbers for how easy it is to cap STR.

You need to show the data you are referring to that shows 100 HP is a smaller impact than 25 STR. I can prove that the 25 STR won't give you any benefit when you are capped on STR.

[Cecily]

HP is one of the few things you can improve on in the end game. 25 STA is 100 hp. It helps.

[Cecily]

POISON 72
MAGIC 49
DISEASE 18
FIRE 34
COLD 54

NGMI with these resists.

STA is literally only useful to a Rogue in the few edge cases where you survive a fight with <100 HP, and such encounters are vanishingly few in number. For the vast, overwhelming majority of your playtime on a Rogue, you have no need of those extra hit points. In contrast, you are benefiting from STR literally every time you play the character, from 1-60 and beyond. This is most evident pre-Velious, but even if you cap STR unbuffed in Velious with high end raid gear... who cares? That just means you can prioritize more HP and resist pieces of gear. The extra 100 HP from STA is still basically never going to make a difference. It's just Magelo e-peen points, as was said.
Your character will be at STR cap for the majority of the time you level 45 - 60. Your character will be at STR cap 100% of the time you raid. Regardless of allocating STR at creation or not. You're advising someone to do something that will help them 1 - 45. That's stupid. Please stop posting rogue advice until you have some.

[Vexenu]

I can prove that the 25 STR won't give you any benefit when you are capped on STR.

No shit. The point is:

1) You won't be STR capped unbuffed until late Velious.

2) Even if you can reach the STR cap (buffed or unbuffed), this simply allows you the freedom to gear more for resists or direct +HP instead.

3) Rogues do not get CHed, do not tank, and rely primarily on wort pots and resist gear to stay alive on raids. 100 additional HP is almost entirely useless.


HP is one of the few things you can improve on in the end game. 25 STA is 100 hp. It helps.
Let's be honest, though. If you're at the point you are raiding exclusively to improve your Rogue's HP with high end Velious pieces, you should probably be gearing another character.

[7thGate]

My personal experience on some of these points at a 60 raiding rogue:

--You will be at the strength cap the vast, vast majority of the time on any raids. Not having str buffs basically never happens.

--If you play long enough, you will eventually have some encounters where you needed that extra HP. I've caught mobs with Nimble at 1% life before, though only a few times.

--Carrying capacity does matter, I'm at 239 str unbuffed and if I'm soloing Ice Giants or Droga crawling I will go overweight before I run out of bag space with 2 100% WR bags/1 70% WR bag and the rest 10 slot no WR. Its not a big deal but it also does something, 160 strength isn't going to be enough to just do whatever without dealing with going over or having to spend time/possibly lose your camp to sell.

--How often people DI rogues doesn't matter, its whether you intend to get DIs or not. Most people do not, but you can almost certainly have them if you pay for them, so the right question isn't really whether other people are doing it its whether you're going to and whether its worth it in any real situation. I do get it for certain fights, personally, but only ones with actively dangerous AOEs.

[Cecily]

So the thing about HP is you can keep stacking it with HP from other sources. Then it becomes kind of a lot of HP and you can tank and get CHed, especially in conjunction with high resists and AC.

The problem with high STR is you can't keep stacking it. There's a pretty easily achievable cap, which is obviously 255, at which point the focus changes to stacking +ATK from Aura of Battle gear.

You can't easily cap STA on a rogue. You can easily cap STR on a rogue. Both are important. Which stat should I put more points into? Hmm.

[Duik]

Confirmed.
Cecily is DSM alt.

[Cecily]

I can't tell if you guys are just trolling him or actually think +25 STR is a good idea in Velious, which it's not. Stop it. Please. Don't screw people's characters up.

[7thGate]

Oh right, there is a niche use I had forgotten about for +Str, since it hasn't really applied to me in most circumstances. If you're Str capped without shaman buffs, you can ask for Talisman in place of Focus and get Bedlam for max starting HP before hitting an AOE fight. That only works if you're either Str capped without Focus or have Avatar though, since it will block.

...I should remember to start asking for that buff stack on stuff where I request Avatar, actually...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I can't tell if you guys are just trolling him or actually think +25 STR is a good idea in Velious, which it's not. Stop it. Please. Don't screw people's characters up.

Many of them are trolling. They hop from thread to thread trying to troll at every opportunity they get. Why? I am not sure. It doesn't help. I do hope they stop, as it just muddies the water. It's hard to give people correct information because of this kind of behavior.

[Duik]

Bingo.

[Cecily]

Many of them are trolling. They hop from thread to thread trying to troll at every opportunity they get. Why? I am not sure. It doesn't help. I do hope they stop, as it just muddies the water. It's hard to give people correct information because of this kind of behavior.
You need to work on your CHA.


Bingo.
You leave that boy alone.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You need to work on your CHA.

The trolls should stop trolling first:)

[Ripqozko]

Easy 100 he will never stop

[Duik]

Keep on Trollin' baby, I know I will.

[Snaggles]

I can't tell if you guys are just trolling him or actually think +25 STR is a good idea in Velious, which it's not. Stop it. Please. Don't screw people's characters up.

Lol. If 25 "wasted" stats screw up your character once solidly geared, maybe you're really bad at playing EQ?

OP, just make the rogue and ignore this thread.

[fortior]

25 cha

[fortior]

This is great. Over 200 posts and I still can't get passed the character creation screen lol

You got your answer though.

If you know for sure you'll reach 60, raid, and plan to keep building the character with the best items in the game, 25 sta

If you are a minmaxer and you can't stand the idea of having suboptimal starting stats even if for day to day performance it won't matter, 25 sta

If you aren't sure whether you'll reach 60 or raid, or if you aren't sure whether you want to main your rogue, just take the 25 str

Personally I would just 25 str it but I wouldn't main a rogue, I'd consider him an alt, so that's why. I'd also make him a gnome though. Gnomes are cool.

Everyone just wants you to have fun, but this is the p99 forums, wars about starting stats are classic

[Jimjam]

Lol. If 25 "wasted" stats screw up your character once solidly geared, maybe you're really bad at playing EQ?

OP, just make the rogue and ignore this thread.

Honestly I thought everyone on this thread just enjoys bickering over minutiae.

[Snaggles]

Honestly I thought everyone on this thread just enjoys bickering over minutiae.

I’ve had many sleepless nights thinking about EQ. Never about my starting points. They matter just like the racial perks but won’t limit anyone doing anything outside maybe a weird piece of equipment or a solo BoTB pvp competition.

IMHO if someone wants to start a min-max thread to debate these things I’m all for that. Seldom do we ask the OP more questions about definitions and goals to try and give relevant advice.

I can give a number of scenarios where a gnome rogue wouldn’t be strength capped. I can argue for hps if a serious raider. I can argue for more dex for quicker avatar procs. That’s fun and relevant for ME but kind of selfish if someone is asking a genuine question for them…

[Cecily]

Lol. If 25 "wasted" stats screw up your character once solidly geared, maybe you're really bad at playing EQ?

OP, just make the rogue and ignore this thread.
It's a waste.

[Snaggles]

It's a waste.

It’s a rogue. The warmbody dps of EQ.

Any time you are not str capped at 60, for any reason (even outside raids), it’s 23 attack. That’s two Aura of Battles or almost a SoN.

[Cecily]

If you don't have buffs at 60 it's not that important.


It’s a rogue. The warmbody dps of EQ.


And tanks and pullers and bumpers. If your conception of a rogue is limited to half afk DPS, that might be more a reflection of your own ability at this game.

[Toxigen]

It’s a rogue. The warmbody dps of EQ.



nah mayne rogues are amazingly good in VP

[7thGate]

And tanks and pullers and bumpers. If your conception of a rogue is limited to half afk DPS, that might be more a reflection of your own ability at this game.

I am continuously amazed at how little people expect from Rogues in general. People expect DPS and corpse drags, but basically nothing else. There's a bunch of pulls that Rogues are really good at, we have the fastest recharging and second longest lasting bump disc, we have snap aggro on engage using poison. Furor's the only person I've raided with back during an old...Freedom? teamup with Aegis that has ever asked for an opening bump with snap aggro to allow a warrior to totem aggro, and he wasn't even asking for Rogues. I volunteered because I knew I could fill that job and we didn't have a ranger, and we were getting crickets from anyone else who could possibly do it.

I think part of the reason is that Rogues can do their main job as a semi-afk warmbody, so people who do not want to be part of the pull/engage team are more likely to gravitate towards the class since you can get away with a pretty simple role if you want. People get mad at monks who just DPS and refuse to pull, but people don't do the same to Rogues.

There's nothing really wrong with that, sometimes you aren't in a position where you can step up to do anything complicated and it can be nice to just have a job where you stand there and press two buttons every 5 seconds. But its also nice to be able to try to use some of the other things the class can do and stretch a little sometimes.

[Toxigen]

I am continuously amazed at how little people expect from Rogues in general. People expect DPS and corpse drags, but basically nothing else. There's a bunch of pulls that Rogues are really good at, we have the fastest recharging and second longest lasting bump disc, we have snap aggro on engage using poison. Furor's the only person I've raided with back during an old...Freedom? teamup with Aegis that has ever asked for an opening bump with snap aggro to allow a warrior to totem aggro, and he wasn't even asking for Rogues. I volunteered because I knew I could fill that job and we didn't have a ranger, and we were getting crickets from anyone else who could possibly do it.

I think part of the reason is that Rogues can do their main job as a semi-afk warmbody, so people who do not want to be part of the pull/engage team are more likely to gravitate towards the class since you can get away with a pretty simple role if you want. People get mad at monks who just DPS and refuse to pull, but people don't do the same to Rogues.

There's nothing really wrong with that, sometimes you aren't in a position where you can step up to do anything complicated and it can be nice to just have a job where you stand there and press two buttons every 5 seconds. But its also nice to be able to try to use some of the other things the class can do and stretch a little sometimes.

Therein lies the issue with bloated big guilds.

Shitters being lazy / unwilling to step up while getting the same DKP as the playmakers.

[Croco]

Therein lies the issue with bloated big guilds.

Shitters being lazy / unwilling to step up while getting the same DKP as the playmakers.

It's a symbiotic relationship. Without warm bodies to kill the mobs the pullers and playmakers can't do shit. They get the mob into camp then die. Should you just warm body all the time? Probably not.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's a symbiotic relationship. Without warm bodies to kill the mobs the pullers and playmakers can't do shit. They get the mob into camp then die. Should you just warm body all the time? Probably not.

Exactly. You need both to get the kill. Ideally people swap between warm body and playmaker. This circulates knowledge better, and helps to prevent burnout.

The way it typically works out is you have too much time and become a permanent playmaker. Or you have too little time, and you become a permanent warm body.

It is a rare breed that can be a part time playmaker. The best you can hope for is warm bodies who are willing to step up and get on guild bots.

It's a skill to be a good puller, for example, and you are going to lose to the permanent playmakers if you only practice a little bit. I think that is why it is tougher to be successful as a guild with part time playmakers filling those kinds of critical roles.

[Cecily]

Playmaker vs warmbody rhetoric is stupid af too. I'm not getting into that. I'm speaking more to the limited idea of what rogues can do perpetually spouted by you people. If you're a "half-afk warmbody" you're not a good player and you're not doing your job regardless of your class. Rogue is a very active class and it takes focus to play it well. And if you're geared right (Hint: AC/HP), and have the mechanic knowledge.. rogues are tanks and pullers as well.

[fortior]

nah mayne rogues are amazingly good in VP

VP loot should be better for how fun and involved the zone is

[Cecily]

It's a fun experience regardless. I have everything I want there and it's still my favorite raid zone. Like the loot that's good there is *really really* good.

[fortior]

I go there to do the nexona pull, after lots of practice I still flub it at times, but it's a great zone. It's like a hurdle race/sprint instead of the marathon that is ntov

[Ripqozko]

I go there to do the nexona pull, after lots of practice I still flub it at times, but it's a great zone. It's like a hurdle race/sprint instead of the marathon that is ntov

The drop down hosh and run back up for nexona pull is :chefs kiss:

[Vexenu]

And if you're geared right (Hint: AC/HP), and have the mechanic knowledge.. rogues are tanks and pullers as well.
Things warm body Rogues tell themselves as the Chad main tanks and Monk pull team walk by with big swinging dicks.

Rogue: H-h-hey Chad Warrior, guess what? I pumped STA at creation
Chad Warrior: That's great kid *flicks toothpick at Rogue* Try not to catch aggro today, right?
Rogue: Sure, right!
Chad Monk: Hey Rogue, I heard you wanted to pull.
Rogue: Y-y-yeah Chad Monk, that's my dream.
Chad Monk: All right, I got something you can pull.
Rogue: Really? What is it?
Chad Monk: Your fucking shine box out of the closet!
Rogue: :(