monk ratios, primary and offhand choices

[deadeyedick]

I am currently a level 16 human monk I have researched a bit about these questions and having trouble finding answers to these questions there seems to be some debate.

what is the math to understand a weapons delay to damage ratio?

what type of weapon is best in the main hand ?

1. a higher delay higher damage?
2. lower delay lower damage?

what type of weapon is best in the off hand ?

1. a higher delay higher damage?
2. lower delay lower damage?

when does this change to 2hb and then back to 1hb?

thanks

[Jimjam]

Melee & Tank Weapon Damage Cap
Level Range Weapon DMG Cap
1-9 10
10-19 14
20-29 30
30-39 60
40+ 100


At your level its simply a case of comparing your weapon’s dmg to the max dmg by level and switching the dmg to the lower value if thr cap is exceeded and then dividing dmg by delay.

For the very lowest end play there are other considerations such as rounding and from 27 there starts damage bonus but dmg/delay is a decent approximation outside those cases.

[Toxigen]

Just get and use a good ratio 2 hander.

You take a lot less damage.

[Snaggles]

In the low levels it’s a bit more confusing. Damage caps favor fast weapons to like lvl 30. Then its ratio to around 50. Then it’s a combination of ratio and damage bonus.

That said, past like level 30 it’s tough to beat a Peacebringer for 800p on blue or an IFS for around 3500. Really tough. Tstaff holds up solidly to 60.

[Bardp1999]

There is no need for charts and analysis and other bull shit. Peacebringer til Epic, then Epic + SoS(offhand) until raid gear. You're welcome.

[Crede]

There is no need for charts and analysis and other bull shit. Peacebringer til Epic, then Epic + SoS(offhand) until raid gear. You're welcome.

Epic/sos was good like 8 years ago. The answer is always tstaff until Bo staff or better raid weps.

[Snaggles]

Fist/SoS these days is really bad. Most well geared rangers out parse them. There are DW combos that out perform droppable Kunark 2h’s but you won’t find them outside raids. The triple attack and then scaling damage bonus patch did crazy things.

[wagorf]

if you aren't gonna raid, then 2h all the way - forget about dual wield

[Andyman1022]

Fist/SoS these days is really bad. Most well geared rangers out parse them. There are DW combos that out perform droppable Kunark 2h’s but you won’t find them outside raids. The triple attack and then scaling damage bonus patch did crazy things.

This is true on low ac/group targets. I feel that epic fist / sos would outperform a lot of 2handers on big AC raid bosses. The other night i was plinking Vyemm for like 40 dmg per hit with my priceless 2hander and decided to try out Mainhand epic fist with priceless in offhand. Didn't parse it ofc but would like to eventually.

[Snaggles]

This is true on low ac/group targets. I feel that epic fist / sos would outperform a lot of 2handers on big AC raid bosses. The other night i was plinking Vyemm for like 40 dmg per hit with my priceless 2hander and decided to try out Mainhand epic fist with priceless in offhand. Didn't parse it ofc but would like to eventually.

Yea I’m a walking hypocrisy. I still think most two-handers shine these days but if people are actively parsing and trying to push the envelope so be it. My annoyance is people just going with dogma over a span of a few years of patches or using an excel spreadsheet to determine what’s best.

Get your good buffs. Parse. Compare fights. Evolve.

I’ve seen people top parses with an IFS and the “punch trick” and suck with the best gear. Just get in there and get it done :)

[Ripqozko]

Yea I’m a walking hypocrisy. I still think most two-handers shine these days but if people are actively parsing and trying to push the envelope so be it. My annoyance is people just going with dogma over a span of a few years of patches or using an excel spreadsheet to determine what’s best.

Get your good buffs. Parse. Compare fights. Evolve.

I’ve seen people top parses with an IFS and the “punch trick” and suck with the best gear. Just get in there and get it done :)

Theres few mobs with enough ac to justify 1h, but 2h wins on most mobs. like aary for instance 2h will parse higher, KT itll parse lower. Pretty known for most what has ac at this point.

[Solist]

Epic/sos was good like 8 years ago. The answer is always tstaff until Bo staff or better raid weps.

This sadly is true.
Peacebringer if no Tstaff.
Tstaff till Strongman. Facesmasher more or less interchangable with bo staff.
Strongman until tunare fist+priceless or better.

Abashi more dps than bo staff but less than tunare fist+15/20 or better.
Weird combos like wurmscale and essence and shit are generally all around the same or less than bo staff on 90% of mobs.

Cycling out any of the 2h's for offhand 9dmg hits is worth about 3-5dps. Hardly worth not being alt tabbed watching youtube for. You can afk for 2.5mins of most fights and collect dkp for watching squirrels figure mazes out. Or be ultra dpsmonk flykicking for a further 5.5 top 7.8dps depending on the mob., and not watch squirrels.

TLDR buy a 3k plat peacebringer until you join vanq or riot, sow people outside ToV on a level 40 druid and pick the highest dkp/hr race to mostly AFK like dain/sev/KT until you have DKP to buy a tunare fist and gharns+primal+abashi.

[Toxigen]

TLDR buy a 3k plat peacebringer until you join vanq or riot, sow people outside ToV on a level 40 druid and pick the highest dkp/hr race to mostly AFK like dain/sev/KT until you have DKP to buy a tunare fist and gharns+primal+abashi.

Or get Primal + Sap Encrusted Branch + Wurmscale Fistwraps and move on to your next character.

[Keebz]

Or get Primal + Sap Encrusted Branch + Wurmscale Fistwraps and move on to your next character.

Or just 2 primal fist wraps. 15 dmg is the cutoff for a higher min hit. This and the stats offset the ratio more or less.

[Ripqozko]

Or just 2 primal fist wraps. 15 dmg is the cutoff for a higher min hit. This and the stats offset the ratio more or less.

Or just get a bo staff and pretend 1h doesn’t exist

[Sizar]

1-29 = Wu's Quivering Staff
30+ = Imbued Fighter's Staff (Until you can afford Tstaff)

Level up your hand to hand and 1hb whenever you can, buy something cheap like a Jade mace.

Use Tstaff till you raid and get an upgrade. Also it is nice to have a SoS on hand for that buff when soloing. Don't bother spending time getting a Blam stick, shit's terrible

[Pint]

What's a strongman

[Spaerhawk]

Don't bother spending time getting a Blam stick, shit's terrible

But it's so fun!

[Crede]

Blam stick is hard/annoying to get. And the chest is pretty much permacamped so you rarely will find the halflings up more than 5 minutes at a time. Definitely go with the IFS > TStaff route instead.

[Snaggles]

The blam was better before the triple attack for monks and scaling 2h damage bonus. These days the annoying reality is a Peacebringer or IFS is tough to beat for the effort.

[fortior]

Or just get a bo staff and pretend 1h doesn’t exist

can I just use facesmasher or is the 0.06 ratio a big deal

[Toxigen]

can I just use facesmasher or is the 0.06 ratio a big deal

you can just use facesmasher

i just hate it b/c it looks like OT hammer - varying levels of intoxication could have you hammering out accidentally

[sajbert]

you can just use facesmasher

i just hate it b/c it looks like OT hammer - varying levels of intoxication could have you hammering out accidentally

Hah, I’d totally so this, intoxicated or not!

On another note, when would an equivalent 2H win out over 1h blunt like Gharns?

[Snaggles]

It depends on the specific parse. I’ve seen shovel monks beat out Gharns ones though. Some good triple attack rng and you’re off to the races.

IMHO for raiders unless you are laser focused on something make a list of what you would take and what you wouldn’t. Then just see what drops and if you can snag it.

[Toxigen]

Hah, I’d totally so this, intoxicated or not!

On another note, when would an equivalent 2H win out over 1h blunt like Gharns?

Anything that isn't a raid mob.

[Snaggles]

Anything that isn't a raid mob.

And a lot of raid mobs.

[Ripqozko]

Anything that isn't a raid mob.

some raid mobs have lower ac like aary, my 2h parses higher on it.

[Degalian]

I am currently a level 16 human monk I have researched a bit about these questions and having trouble finding answers to these questions there seems to be some debate.

what is the math to understand a weapons delay to damage ratio?

what type of weapon is best in the main hand ?

1. a higher delay higher damage?
2. lower delay lower damage?

what type of weapon is best in the off hand ?

1. a higher delay higher damage?
2. lower delay lower damage?

when does this change to 2hb and then back to 1hb?

thanks

as stated before:

Melee & Tank Weapon Damage Cap
Level Range Weapon DMG Cap
1-9 10
10-19 14
20-29 30
30-39 60
40+ 100

Unless your Offense Skill plus Strength > 200 you will always get Base Damage x 2 with the number in above table being the cap.

The DPS you do is 2 x Damage/Delay

So let's compare Master Wu's Trance Stick (7/18) and Knuckle Duster (14/28)

From Level 1-9 you get 2x7/18 for Wu = 0.777777
From Lavel 1-9 you get 2x10/28 for KD = 0.714
so Wu in Main Hand

From Level 10-19 you get 2x7/18 for Wu = 0.7777
From Lavel 10-19 you get 2x14/28 for KD = 1
so KD in Main Hand

You start getting a Damage Bonus for every 3 Levels after 25 ((Lvl - 25)/3) rounded down for 1h Weapons.

At level 28 you therefore get (2x7+1)/18 for Wu = 0.833
and (2x14+1)/28 for KD = 1.0357

So KD will still be better.

That should be good enough of a calculation to get you through your first 40 levels.
The problem with 2h Weapons is that the Damage Bonus is not known exactly, so calculating it is hard. You would have to look into your chance to double Attack vs. Dualwield+ Double Attack where the Off-Hand has no Damage Bonus. So it's probably a little math deep dive or you just listen to the advice already given here from people who parsed this stuff.

For dual wield the advice is generally lower delay tends to be main hand, because Dmg Bonus get's applied to every swing. So Best Ratio including Damage Bonus. Off Hand you just wan't the best ratio you can get and Delay is irrelevant.

But not always the faster Wepaon in main hand, compare Wu vs KD again at Level 60
(7x2+8)/18 = 1.222 on Wu's
vs (14x2+8)/28 = 1.285 on KD
So KD in Main Hand is still better. Tho people won't be using the trance stick anymore there I guess ;-).

This holds true for as long as Offence + Strength < 200, otherwhise you multiply by (Offence + Strength)/100 instead of x2

[Toxigen]

All OP needs to know is just use a 2 hander. Even if the damage done is remotely similar, the damage you'll take is a lot less due to fewer mob ripostes.

Try to save up for an IFS and use a Wu's or Staff of Battle til then.

[long.liam]

All OP needs to know is just use a 2 hander. Even if the damage done is remotely similar, the damage you'll take is a lot less due to fewer mob ripostes.

Try to save up for an IFS and use a Wu's or Staff of Battle til then.

I 2nd this. Also, less weight, takes up less bag space than 1 handers, pushes raid targets less, which can push the raid target outside of your/other players attack range, and less likely to die when/if you accidentally eat enrage.

[Tnair]

Love all the advice that boils down to "don't experiment, don't explore, don't have fun, here is the formula to make you the same as every other monk. You're welcome." Non-sarcastic question, DOES anyone actually enjoy "gearing by numbers" here? Like just making an checklist of drops from wiki and then afk raiding until you get them? Because of the goal is to rush to endgame BiS... the immediate step after that is stop playing the character, so why not just skip straight to that step and uninstall the game??

[Croco]

Love all the advice that boils down to "don't experiment, don't explore, don't have fun, here is the formula to make you the same as every other monk. You're welcome." Non-sarcastic question, DOES anyone actually enjoy "gearing by numbers" here? Like just making an checklist of drops from wiki and then afk raiding until you get them? Because of the goal is to rush to endgame BiS... the immediate step after that is stop playing the character, so why not just skip straight to that step and uninstall the game??

Sorry friend. All the experimentation and exploration and fun theorycrafting when no one knew anything about the game was done literal decades ago. So you can choose to do what's best or you can just choose to not care and go your own way, but don't be surprised when people bust out 20+ years worth of very specialized knowledge about a game that most of us are extremely addicted to.

[Snaggles]

The issue with the monk at least these days with the 2h patches is the illusion of freedom. You CAN use other combos but unless they come off off the toughest npcs in the game there are only a few paths that generate good numbers. If you are soloing that means you either struggle more or less. If on a raid it means you are higher or lower on the parse.

Sorry the Tstaff, IFS, and PB are just too good. Last HoT I attended my ranger with a Meljeldin was swapping dps positions with a Peacebringer 60 monk most the night. Guess which one it's more sad for :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Love all the advice that boils down to "don't experiment, don't explore, don't have fun, here is the formula to make you the same as every other monk. You're welcome." Non-sarcastic question, DOES anyone actually enjoy "gearing by numbers" here? Like just making an checklist of drops from wiki and then afk raiding until you get them? Because of the goal is to rush to endgame BiS... the immediate step after that is stop playing the character, so why not just skip straight to that step and uninstall the game??

People are just trying to tell the truth. Parsing is something a lot of people do, so we can see the trends in the average damages on different popular weapons.

That being said, you don't have to play in the most efficient way. The goal of the game is to have fun. I still dual wield on my Monk sometimes, because I like the feel of dual wield, and stun procs on Addy Club are cool. Is it more efficient than my IFS? No, but I can still kill the mob I want quickly enough.

But if you know what weapons are best, you can use them in a scenario where people are expecting you to play at your best, like raiding. You can also use them when you need to play at your best, like soloing tough mobs.

[fortior]

I've got a primal on my monk, but it's the 1h (fist). This is great, except I never bothered with DW and only have a raid tier 2h weapon. I don't want to weapon swap when just grinding mobs or doing chill duoing, what are some solid easy options to get while I save up dkp for a real weapon?

[Pint]

I've got a primal on my monk, but it's the 1h (fist). This is great, except I never bothered with DW and only have a raid tier 2h weapon. I don't want to weapon swap when just grinding mobs or doing chill duoing, what are some solid easy options to get while I save up dkp for a real weapon?

Not easy but the best option would be a priceless fist

[Ennewi]

Love all the advice that boils down to "don't experiment, don't explore, don't have fun, here is the formula to make you the same as every other monk. You're welcome." Non-sarcastic question, DOES anyone actually enjoy "gearing by numbers" here? Like just making an checklist of drops from wiki and then afk raiding until you get them? Because of the goal is to rush to endgame BiS... the immediate step after that is stop playing the character, so why not just skip straight to that step and uninstall the game??

Patches tend to throw a wrench into the gears, whether on purpose or by accident. As others have pointed out, what was true several years ago isn't true anymore which won't remain true in the years ahead.

People like to say that this game has been solved, discovered, etc. because it's mostly accurate but they aren't accounting for the mundane details that can and do make a world of difference. Over time new ways of doing things become the standard until newer ways are found or restrictions put in place as a result. It's a game of cat and mouse, developer and player.

[Toxigen]

The answer is still IFS for any young monk out there looking to save for a weapon for the long haul.

[fortior]

Not easy but the best option would be a priceless fist

this would actually be the easiest option since it drops off of ST trash

[7thGate]

Patches tend to throw a wrench into the gears, whether on purpose or by accident. As others have pointed out, what was true several years ago isn't true anymore which won't remain true in the years ahead.

People like to say that this game has been solved, discovered, etc. because it's mostly accurate but they aren't accounting for the mundane details that can and do make a world of difference. Over time new ways of doing things become the standard until newer ways are found or restrictions put in place as a result. It's a game of cat and mouse, developer and player.

I feel like there's a lot of people that say this game is solved but there's a lot of innovative stuff or mechanics that are not well known at all. This is especially true if you're going off publically available sources intead of whatever private notes are in place.

I still don't know if Statue and Avatar of War are belly casters; its not listed on their wiki page, but when I sent people to try and kite Statue for preslow on the no rules quake it failed miserably. Were we just unlucky and/or had problems with range, or was that doomed from the start?

The only raid mob I know you can land poison spells on is Dain Frostreaver IV, but I have no idea how many others are vulnerable except not Sontalak or Cazic Thule.

I don't know if any raid mobs aren't immune to run speed changes.

I didn't know Statue doesn't social with Guardians of Zek faction until I started pulling him. Turns out he doesn't see hide either, despite the wiki page saying he does.

I can go pull Armors of Zek to zoneline whenever now that I worked out the interaction with the 1 way wall, but there's not a lot of hints on good ways to pull them without clearing anything. Never seen other rogues suggest doing it.

It was not at all obvious Yetarr does enough damage that its worth dedicating 3 free enchanters to maintaining a dictate loop+charm handoff until he was actually pulled out and tested in a Dictate loop.

Didn't know Neb would fight Zlandicar or not, but it turns out he does. Zlandi bugs out completely when he kills him though, so too bad about that or it could be used to try for an ultra low man.

Mages can ramp tank anything unsupported for 200 plat/minute using corpsed box of the voids. Picked up several vindis that way where we didn't have a ramp tank or ramp healer, don't think I've seen anyone else do that or mention it.

Project Lightning's low man Vindi using no players in Ramp range to control wizard deaths for respawning with mana is clever and I haven't see it before.

There's still a source of damage that can hit any number of targets in the game simultaneously, but whether anyone will ever be able to do anything interesting with it is currently up in the air.

I wonder how many people know about the 2 minute respawn camp for 20% chance at 500 instaclick healing/rune potions, because its on the wiki now but I've seen it come as a surprise to a bunch of people.

I've had a fellow theorycrafter show me an item that he figured out how to farm that is flagged as a GM event item on the wiki.

There was no indicator I could find that the Shardwing Courier quest turnin was worth a huge amount of experience before I tested it.

Stunned, mezzed and DA players automatically drop to the bottom of the aggro list, so can you spinstun yourself with a orb of confusion to drop aggro if you're DPS? I don't know, I don't have one and haven't gotten around to asking someone to test it.

I think it might be possible to solo farm Eyepatch of Shadows. Maybe if I ever get a 60 enchanter I'll try and see if I can pull it off. I probably should try and get an enchanter to 60, there's too many cool mechanics that need them to explore.

Its very unclear how the aggro mechanics from healing pets work based on anything I've been able to figure out.

There's just a lot of really interesting things to try and explore in this game. Even the knowledge that does technically exist is way more siloed than you would expect.

[fortior]

I got a priceless fist now and it rules

[Vivitron]

Stunned, mezzed and DA players automatically drop to the bottom of the aggro list, so can you spinstun yourself with a orb of confusion to drop aggro if you're DPS? I don't know, I don't have one and haven't gotten around to asking someone to test it.

On p99, the da aggro drop is only while the da is active, after it wears off you get the aggro back.

According to TAKP research, when you da the aggro is supposed to drop permanently. So you should be able to use a bard in a wizard group or da ears to go wild with dragonbanes on vyemm, for example. TAKP made a game balance or classic experience decision to use unclassic da aggro mechanics like on p99, where da only drops the aggro while da is active and gives you all the aggro back once it drops.

It is probably a bigger balance issue over there in PoP where wizards are dps beasts. It read to me like velious era is supposed to have the da drop aggro permanently, too. I'm not sure if anyone has tried to get p99 to implement that.

[sammoHung]

Runed Fighter Staff is the best droppable weapon 1-50.

T Staff is best droppable weapon 50-60.

Herbalist Spade > IFS simply for the root proc. Paralyzing Earth has saved my ass loads of times. Easy to solo a melee mob if you can root it, back up and bandage, then get back to killing it.

Gozzrem's Shovel is amazing. I was doing close to top DPS with Focus, VoG and Shovel. Hitting for 250s, 300s + occasional triple attack. Bumped up to 500+ with innerflame.

Outside of Gharn's Rock or Tunare fist, 2hb is always better. The procs on the Gharn rock and Tunare fist add alot of DPS, but their melee damage isnt as good. It's all about the damage bonus (https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1).

When you have 100% haste, the slower, harder hitting weapons pay dividends.

For instance: with VoG + Worn haste.

T Staff is 29 damage, 15 delay At level 60 it's +28 damage bonus every 1.5 seconds. (Plus h2h in between swings.)

Adam Club mainhand, 15 damage, 13 delay. 10 damage bonus.
SoS offhand 17 damage, 14 delay. no damage bonus.

Replace with IFS/Herb Spade or PB and get similar numbers.

[Cecily]

RFS sounded like so much fun to level with that I tried to buy one and made a new monk before I decided against spending 100k on a temporary weapon for a ridiculously easy to level class.
CoF/Fungi/T-staff isn't optimal, but I used that from level 1 and burned through the levels np.

[sammoHung]

RFS sounded like so much fun to level with that I tried to buy one and made a new monk before I decided against spending 100k on a temporary weapon for a ridiculously easy to level class.
CoF/Fungi/T-staff isn't optimal, but I used that from level 1 and burned through the levels np.

It's really good at 50+ too, but the T Staff is much better 50+...

But that RFS 1-50 is a buzzsaw. No single mob blue con or under ever gave me any trouble 1-50 with that thing.

[Lune]

RFS sounded like so much fun to level with that I tried to buy one and made a new monk before I decided against spending 100k on a temporary weapon for a ridiculously easy to level class.

Yea but god damn it was fun

Plus it's an item that keeps value well, wish I still had it

[Raralith]

Great info on the thread especially about low vs. high AC raid targets. I'm reviewing the monk weapon DPS spreadsheet, and I'm trying to figure out what my next weapons goals are for raiding so I wanted to get some thoughts from the knowledgeable people here.

I'm currently using T-staff for 2HB OR epic fist + Scepter of Mastery depending on target. I've got very sparse access to ToV monk weapons (no VP) so it's hard for me to get Facesmasher, Shovel of the Harvest, Fist of Lightning, Baton of Flame, or Wurmscale Fistwraps but if one becomes available I'll be more then happy to spend DKP on it. What I do have right now though is plat so I'm considering buying a ST key and loot rights for Priceless Velium Fistwraps and an Essence Mace. From a min/max perspective and judging from this thread, I'm hesitant to buy these because 1) I'll more then likely be using a 2HB for most raid targets, and 2) the DPS increase comparing these two relative to epic fists on the primarily are 13% and 17% more, respectively, for the cost of ~450k plat. Wurmscale Fistwraps give a 20% DPS increase, and Baton of Flame 24% excluding proc. So, my question is, just continue using the epic fists + SoM when not using 2HB and just wait patiently for better NTOV 1HB/fists OR spend the 450k for ST gear is worth it (assuming I dont have unlimited plat and that's everything I have)?

[WarpathEQ]

$450k is probably an understatement, atleast on green to get all of that. Seems like the Key/prismatic scale is $500k alone, haven't seen a price on the priceless velium.

I personally would just be patient and wait for an NToV drop, even if you don't have many opportunities if that's your sole focus pretty high chance you get it when it drops.

If you don't have beads yet then 100% save your cash, beads are way more useful than any weapon upgrades.

[Goregasmic]

What's the reason behind 2hb sucking on high AC targets? You often get low damage hits so the extra delay is a waste? Outside of high end raiding are those targets common?

Also someone mentionned little is known about the 2h bonus formulas. How accurate are the damage calculators like this one (https://jklein.me/eqcalc/) out there? I understand nothing beats a parse but one can only parse if they already own the coveted weapon.

As for OP, if it wasnt clear enough, 2HB win over 1HB until you're in your high 40s because the damage bonus only starts kicking in significantly at that point. Even then dual wield means your offhand will still miss a fair bit so a very good 2hb can still win especially if you consider ripostes/damage shields/hate generated.

Offhand has no damage bonus so ratio always wins. As for main hand, speed often rules as faster hitting weapons mean taking advantage of the damage bonus on each hit more often, meaning faster weapon can often outdamage slower weapons with a better ratio to a certain point.

[Keebz]

I've got very sparse access to ToV monk weapons (no VP) so it's hard for me to get Facesmasher, Shovel of the Harvest, Fist of Lightning, Baton of Flame, or Wurmscale Fistwraps but if one becomes available I'll be more then happy to spend DKP on it. What I do have right now though is plat...

If you want raid gear, I suggest joining a raid guild.

[Vivitron]

What's the reason behind 2hb sucking on high AC targets?

That's a good question; I thought people were suggesting low hits would mean a larger portion of the damage comes from the damage bonus. But it seems 2 handers give better damage bonus dps?

According to the lucy chart linked above you're looking at +11 for a prime hand one hander and +29 for a 30 delay two hander (e.g. abashi or tstaff), so is the "damage-bonus-only-ratio" 11/18 for a FoN and 29/30 for an abashi, favoring the 2 hander by a convincing 58%? (I'm not sure that the lucy chart is accurate. I'm also not sure that a two hander swings the same number of swings per round as the primary hand when dual weilding.)

It seems to me that two handers should do better relative to one handers on high ac mobs than on low ac mobs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's a good question; I thought people were suggesting low hits would mean a larger portion of the damage comes from the damage bonus. But it seems 2 handers give better damage bonus dps?

According to the lucy chart linked above you're looking at +11 for a prime hand one hander and +29 for a 30 delay two hander (e.g. abashi or tstaff), so is the "damage-bonus-only-ratio" 11/18 for a FoN and 29/30 for an abashi, favoring the 2 hander by a convincing 58%? (I'm not sure that the lucy chart is accurate. I'm also not sure that a two hander swings the same number of swings per round as the primary hand when dual weilding.)

It seems to me that two handers should do better relative to one handers on high ac mobs than on low ac mobs.

When looking at the normal distribution (assuming a pure 50% hit rate on average), you would be correct that some 2h weapons could outperform 1h weapons on high AC targets. At 100% haste the 11/18 would have 9 delay, and the 29/30 would have 15 delay. 9 divided by 15 is 0.6. For every 100 swings of the 9 delay 1h weapon, you'd get 60 swings out of the 2h weapon. When factoring in a 50% chance to dual wield, that would be 150 1h swings for every 60 2h swings.

(150 1h swings × 0.5 hit rate) x 11 damage bonus = 825 damage

(60 2h swings x 0.5 hit rate) x 29 damage bonus = 870 damage

The catch is fights with high AC targets are usually raid mobs you fight once in a while (that you don't want to lose), instead of XP mobs you are constantly killing. This means you want to look at how an individual fight could play out, rather than a large number of fights (the normal distribution).

1h weapons give you a lot more individual chances to hit in a single fight.

If you hit 40% of the time on the first 60 swings:

(60 1h swings x 0.4 hit rate) × 11 damage bonus = 264 damage

(60 2h swings x 0.4 hit rate) x 29 damage bonus = 696 damage.

If you hit 60% of the time on the next 60 swings:

(60 1h swings x 0.6 hit rate) × 11 damage bonus = 396 damage

0 2h swings = 0 damage

If you hit 50% of the time on the next 30 swings:

(30 1h swings x 0.5 hit rate) x 11 damage bonus = 165 damage

0 2h swings = 0 damage

1h damage total over 150 swings: 825 damage

2h damage total over 60 swings: 696 damage

After you've fought thousands of a specific raid target, you may see that the data shows some 2h weapons would deal higher damage on average. But the goal of each individual raid target fight is to kill it asap. So you are banking on the idea that you will outperform the 2h weapon in that individual fight.

The same concept applies to how much damage each individual hit does. The 1h weapon has more opportunities to randomly roll higher damage-wise. An unlucky streak of low damage 2h rolls will lower your damage in an individual fight.

[Goregasmic]

Thanks, makes sense I guess.

I also noticed that even if on average it doesn't matter, people HATE missing with a slow 2hander.

Is it also taken into account that for a single encounter lasting only a few minutes, a potential miss streak on a slow 2 hander could hurt more than 1handers that would average better over a shorter period? If you're lucky the 2hander could also pay off but if people are going to be risk averse to that point on those raid mobs then they might want to not risk it with a swingy 2hander.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is it also taken into account that for a single encounter lasting only a few minutes, a potential miss streak on a slow 2 hander could hurt more than 1handers that would average better over a shorter period? If you're lucky the 2hander could also pay off but if people are going to be risk averse to that point on those raid mobs then they might want to not risk it with a swingy 2hander.

Correct. 2h weapons are more swingy, where some fights are going to be well below average, and some fights are going to be well above average. After killing a few hundred XP mobs, the 2h weapon averages back out to the midpoint. This means when killing hundreds of XP mobs, you just want to pick whichever weapons give you the best average.

On high AC targets a good set of 1h weapons are going to be more consistent, and thus closer to the midpoint during any individual fight. In a scenario where losing the fight means you lose the kill to another guild, consistency is what you want.

High AC targets make the swingy nature of 2h weapons worse as well. This is because you are less likely to get a max hit, which would normally smooth out a previous miss or low damage hit.

[Vivitron]

When looking at the normal distribution (assuming a pure 50% hit rate on average), you would be correct that some 2h weapons could outperform 1h weapons on high AC targets. At 100% haste the 11/18 would have 9 delay, and the 29/30 would have 15 delay. 9 divided by 15 is 0.6. For every 100 swings of the 9 delay 1h weapon, you'd get 60 swings out of the 2h weapon. When factoring in a 50% chance to dual wield, that would be 150 1h swings for every 60 2h swings.

(150 1h swings × 0.5 hit rate) x 11 damage bonus = 825 damage

(60 2h swings x 0.5 hit rate) x 29 damage bonus = 870 damage

But offhand doesn't get the damage bonus, so call it 870 damage vs 550.

The catch is fights with high AC targets are usually raid mobs you fight once in a while (that you don't want to lose), instead of XP mobs you are constantly killing. This means you want to look at how an individual fight could play out, rather than a large number of fights (the normal distribution).

For a raid on a high AC fight: 5 monks on a six minute fight might be roughly representative; call it 30 monk-minutes of dps (maybe about 1,500-3,000 2h swings): I think this should be more than enough swings to wash out any risk of high variance, and whichever weapon provides the highest average dps should be used (my argument does not address what that weapon is; it only argues that on high ac mobs two handers should compare better to one handers than they do on low ac mobs; the top one handers could still always win afaik).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But offhand doesn't get the damage bonus, so call it 870 damage vs 550.


Fair point! I forgot to remove the damage bonus on offhand. So you'd be looking at 550 damage 1h vs 696 2h damage in my example where the 2h weapon hit under the average.

We would probably need some parses to see how bad the lower damage rolls are on the 2h weapon due to the high AC.

[Vivitron]

Fair point! I forgot to remove the damage bonus on offhand. So you'd be looking at 550 damage 1h vs 696 2h damage in my example where the 2h weapon hit under the average.

We would probably need some parses to see how bad the lower damage rolls are on the 2h weapon due to the high AC.

It's 550 vs 870 given equal hit rate. 0 vs 870 on my example where the one hander hit under the average.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's 550 vs 870 given equal hit rate. 0 vs 870 on my example where the one hander hit under the average.

The point is on an individual fight, 2h weapons have a higher chance to hit under the 50% hit rate due to having less dice rolls to work with. 1h weapons are more likely to get the 50% hit rate on an individual fight. Things like dodge/riposte/parry also play a factor. Any time one of your 2h max hits gets dodged/parried/riposted, you are set back more than a 1h weapon, regardless of what it rolled.

[Vivitron]

The point is on an individual fight, 2h weapons have a higher chance to hit under the average, due to having less dice rolls to work with. 1h weapons are more likely to get the 50% hit rate on an individual fight. Things like dodge/riposte/parry also play a factor. Any time one of your 2h max hits gets dodged/parried/riposted, you are set back more than a 1h weapon, regardless of what it rolled.

Interesting when soloing and maybe for gaters, but I don't see how it applies to high ac raid targets. For example take AoW -- looking at parses it seems it typically takes our raid force about 20,000 hits to kill him. Sure an individual chunk of 2hb (or backstab) is higher variance than an equivalent time of 1h swings, but suppose swapping 6 monks to two handers reduces it from 21,000 hits to 19,000 hits, would that be a noticable increase in variance? I don't see it. With that many samples I don't think you stray far from the average.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Interesting when soloing and maybe for gaters, but I don't see how it applies to high ac raid targets. For example take AoW -- looking at parses it seems it typically takes our raid force about 20,000 hits to kill him. Sure an individual chunk of 2hb (or backstab) is higher variance than an equivalent time of 1h swings, but suppose swapping 6 monks to two handers reduces it from 21,000 hits to 19,000 hits, would that be a noticable increase in variance? I don't see it. With that many samples I don't think you stray far from the average.

Apologies. I didn't provide a clear example due to accidentally leaving in the damage bonus for the offhand in the previous example. I will do the full math to hopefully give you a better idea.

I'll use the damage range from my SK as a quick example. His 46/44 ratio weapon does 46-258 damage self buffed, with the 37 damage bonus. This means the damage roll range is 9-221 (the part affected by AC). We will still use two 11/18 weapons for dual wielding in the example.

For argument's sake, we will say AoW reduces your damage rolls by half on average.

This means my average damage per hit on the 2h weapon is (9 + 221) / 2 = 115 × 0.5 = 57.5 + 37 = 94.5 damage.

At 100% haste you have 22 delay on a 46/44 weapon. You have 9 delay on an 11/18 weapon. 9 delay divided by 22 is 0.41. So you'd get 41 swings per 150 swings of the 11/18 weapons when including dual wield.

94.5 damage x 20.5 hits = 1937.25 total damage.

I don't have the max hit for the 11/18 weapon, but we can take a rough guess. 46 divided by 11 is 4.18. 221/ 4.18 = 52.9. So the damage range is 9-52.9 (the part not affected by AC).

(9 + 52.9) / 2 = 30.95 x 0.5 = 15.475 damage without the damage bonus.

15.475 damage x 75 hits = 1160.625 damage + (11 bonus damage × 50 hits) = 1710.625 total damage.

So the 1h weapons would do roughly 225 less damage per damage set of 150 1h swings and 41 2h swings. 225 damage is basically 1-2 hits from this 2h weapon.

This means the 2h weapon will underperform the 1h weapons basically anytime you miss more often than the pure average, which is more likely with a 2h weapon in an individual fight. The 1h weapons also have a higher chance to roll above average damage in an individual fight, due to having more damage rolls. Parry/dodge/riposte also affect 2h weapons more when they nullify a high damage hit.

I agree that the 2h weapon should outperform the 1h weapons on a normal distribution. But in individual fights 2h weapons are more swingy.

[Keebz]

Monks have more than a 50% chance to dual wield, but please don't redo your 'math', thanks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Monks have more than a 50% chance to dual wield, but please don't redo your 'math', thanks.

More than 50% dual wield would further close the gap between 1h and 2h, so that supports my position.

[bcbrown]

So the 1h weapons would do roughly 225 less damage per damage set of 150 1h swings and 41 2h swings. 225 damage is basically 1-2 hits from this 2h weapon.


Agreed with this conclusion from your (valid) assumptions.


This means the 2h weapon will underperform the 1h weapons basically anytime you miss more often than the pure average, which is more likely with a 2h weapon in an individual fight. The 1h weapons also have a higher chance to roll above average damage in an individual fight, due to having more damage rolls. Parry/dodge/riposte also affect 2h weapons more when they nullify a high damage hit.

I agree that the 2h weapon should outperform the 1h weapons on a normal distribution. But in individual fights 2h weapons are more swingy.

I do not agree with this part. Yes, 2h weapons are more "swingy" - fewer samples means higher variance. But this part is not true: "The 1h weapons also have a higher chance to roll above average damage in an individual fight, due to having more damage rolls."

Having more damage rolls means that the outcome will more often be close to the expected average outcome - 1937 damage for 2h and 1710 for 1h. Having fewer damage rolls means that there is more variance in outcomes - relatively speaking compared to 1h, the 2h fights will both have more far-above-average and far-below-average outcomes.

In fact, having the more damage rolls there are, the more likely the result will be the same as the expected average outcome.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I do not agree with this part. Yes, 2h weapons are more "swingy" - fewer samples means higher variance. But this part is not true: "The 1h weapons also have a higher chance to roll above average damage in an individual fight, due to having more damage rolls."

Having more damage rolls means that the outcome will more often be close to the expected average outcome - 1937 damage for 2h and 1710 for 1h. Having fewer damage rolls means that there is more variance in outcomes - relatively speaking compared to 1h, the 2h fights will both have more far-above-average and far-below-average outcomes.

In fact, having the more damage rolls there are, the more likely the result will be the same as the expected average outcome.

Indeed, more damage rolls means 1h is closer to the expected average. I said that already. Thats why 1h is more consistent on an individual fight against high AC targets. 2h has a higher risk of being below average in a single fight. People want to avoid that risk by going 1h for something like AoW where you don't get a second chance at the fight. This assumes you have a good enough set of 1h weapons of course.

If you roll 30 dice, you'll probably see more 6s than if you rolled 5 dice. That was my point. Will there be 1s to cancel out the 6s? Sure. But I'd take more rolls over less rolls, as you get a smoother result on average, with perhaps an extra 6 or two you didn't expect in an individual fight. It will all smooth out on a normal distribution, but people want to be as consistent as possible on a critical fight.

DSM not understanding anything, poorly explaining things incorrectly.

Don't change p99 forums. Dont change.

Making things up I see. Please change for the better so you can properly contribute.

[Troxx]

It is reassuring that some things in life never change.

Truly cringeworthy!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is reassuring that some things in life never change.

Truly cringeworthy!

Troxx comes back to bloat the forums with nonsense. Sadly he doesn't know how the game works, and cannot contribute anything else to the topic.

[bcbrown]

2h has a higher risk of being below average in a single fight.

This is not true!

[Troxx]

This is not true!

Lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is not true!

It is true. If you fight 2 mobs, you'll probably get 1 below average fight, and 1 above average fight with 2h. This averages out to the middle. This is why you always pick whichever weapons have the better average when killing a lot of mobs.

When you are fighting 1 mob that spawns every 7 days, you don't want to get the below average fight. Unless your guild wipes and is able to try again, you won't get a second fight to average it out.

[bcbrown]

It is true. If you fight 2 mobs, you'll probably get 1 below average fight, and 1 above average fight with 2h.

If you fight 2 mobs with 1h weapons, you'll probably get 1 below average fight and 1 above average fight. Both weapon sets will have the same probability of below-average or above-average damage: 50%.

But I think I understand the point you're trying to get at, however imperfectly your argument is articulated. I think you're trying to say that a string of bad luck can result in a time-to-kill that is longer than the CH chain can sustain the raid will wipe, and that kind of "string of bad luck" is more likely with a higher-variance weapon. Is that right?

[Troxx]

When you are fighting 1 mob that spawns every 7 days, you don't want to get the below average fight. Unless your guild wipes and is able to try again, you won't get a second fight to average it out.

Or join a more skilled guild that won’t wipe because one monk chose to use a 2 hander and got “unlucky”. Does this happen to kittens much? Or are you just blowing smoke out your ass like usual?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you fight 2 mobs with 1h weapons, you'll probably get 1 below average fight and 1 above average fight. Both weapon sets will have the same probability of below-average or above-average damage: 50%.

But I think I understand the point you're trying to get at, however imperfectly your argument is articulated. I think you're trying to say that a string of bad luck can result in a time-to-kill that is longer than the CH chain can sustain the raid will wipe, and that kind of "string of bad luck" is more likely with a higher-variance weapon. Is that right?

Think of a set of weapon swings as a coin toss. I'll go back to the original example. For every 150 swings the 1h 11/18 weapons dish out (this includes dual wield), you'll get 60 swings from a 29/30 weapon in the same time interval. This means every 60 swings is 1 coin toss. Heads is above average, tails is below average.

If you only toss the coin once, you have a 50% chance that you'll get below average. However, you only have a 25% chance to roll two tails in a row. So 1h is more likely to give you a head + tails, resulting in getting the average.

I'll gladly take a 75% chance of getting the average over a 50% chance of getting below average when looking at a single fight that cannot be retried for 7 days. On a normal distribution this will even out eventually, but most people don't fight that many AoWs per year, unless you are extremely active.

[bcbrown]

Think of a set of weapon swings as a coin toss. I'll go back to the original example. For every 150 swings the 1h 11/18 weapons dish out (this includes dual wield), you'll get 60 swings from a 29/30 weapon in the same time interval. This means every 60 swings is 1 coin toss. Heads is above average, tails is below average.

If you only toss the coin once, you have a 50% chance that you'll get below average. However, you only have a 25% chance to roll two tails in a row. So 1h is more likely to give you a head + tails, resulting in getting the average.

I'll gladly take a 75% chance of getting the average over a 50% chance of getting below average when looking at a single fight that cannot be retried for 7 days. On a normal distribution this will even out eventually, but most people don't fight that many AoWs per year, unless you are extremely active.

A couple of notes:

If you flip a single coin, you can never get the average/expected value
If you flip two coins the probability of getting the expected outcome is 50%, not 75%
If you're reducing 60 swings, each with 21 possible outcomes, to a single coin flip you're already misusing statistics and probability and any further analysis will be tainted.


I'd really like to hear Ripqozko, 7thGate, Snaggles, or Solist give their reasons why they think (if they do) that 1h is better than 2h on high-ac raid targets. I understand why using low-delay 1h weapons is better than high-delay 1h weapons (damage bonus is the same in both cases and is applied after AC is taken into account), but since 2h damage bonus scales with delay I share Vivitron's conclusion/confusion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A couple of notes:

If you flip a single coin, you can never get the average/expected value
If you flip two coins the probability of getting the expected outcome is 50%, not 75%
If you're reducing 60 swings, each with 21 possible outcomes, to a single coin flip you're already misusing statistics and probability and any further analysis will be tainted.


I'd really like to hear Ripqozko, 7thGate, Snaggles, or Solist give their reasons why they think (if they do) that 1h is better than 2h on high-ac raid targets. I understand why using low-delay 1h weapons is better than high-delay 1h weapons (damage bonus is the same in both cases and is applied after AC is taken into account), but since 2h damage bonus scales with delay I share Vivitron's conclusion/confusion.

I see you misunderstood basic statistics again. You've had this issue before in previous threads.

It is highly improbable to get the exact average in any small data set. It will be at least slighty over or slightly under most of the time. Using a coin flip as an analogy is perfectly valid in this scenario. Remember a coin can land on it's edge, but people generally just don't take that into consideration for these kinds of thought experiments.

An easier way to think about it (since coins confuse you) is to simply look at how many swings you'll get per fight. The 11/18 weapons are hitting more than twice as much as the 2h 29/30 weapon. You get two datasets worth of hit data during one fight with the 1h weapon when compared to the 2h weapon. One dataset will probably be over the average, and one will probably be under the average. The 2h weapon will only get one of those.

And yes, the chance of getting two heads or two tails in a row is 25%. Just google it. The idea is you don't want two tails. It's better to get any other combination. So if you have 3/4 combinations you desire, what percentage is that?

[bcbrown]

I'll gladly take a 75% chance of getting the average

And yes, the chance of getting two heads or two tails in a row is 25%. Just google it. The idea is you don't want two tails. It's better to get any other combination. So if you have 3/4 combinations you desire, what percentage is that?

If you get two heads, you did not get the average.


It is highly improbable to get the exact average in any small data set.


It is in fact more likely to get the exact average in a small data set than a large data set. If you flip two coins there is a 50% chance of the exact average. If you flip four coins there is a 25% chance of the exact average. If you flip 10 coins there is a 0.9% chance of the exact average.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you get two heads, you did not get the average.


Yeah you still don't get it. I am not sure how much simpler I can make it. You need to listen please. I can only hope you are just messing with me like you have done in the past when you can't admit you are wrong.

Average Dataset = 1 full set of weapon swings in a single fight.

Dual wielding 1h 11/18 weapons gives you twice as much weapon swing data in one fight compared to a 29/30 2h weapon. That is the equivalent of two fights worth of 29/30 2h swing data.

Tails = under average dataset
Heads = over average dataset

Tails + Tails = under average dataset
Tail + heads = average dataset
Heads + Tails = average dataset
Heads + Heads = above average dataset

You have a 75% chance to get average or above average damage when you have 2 average datasets. Dual wielding 11/18 weapons gives you the equivalent of two 29/30 2h average datasets in a single fight.


It is in fact more likely to get the exact average in a small data set than a large data set. If you flip two coins there is a 50% chance of the exact average. If you flip four coins there is a 25% chance of the exact average. If you flip 10 coins there is a 0.9% chance of the exact average.

When I said small dataset I didn't mean 2 coin flips. I was talking about 1 full fight worth of swings, which can be hundreds of swings. Tens of thousands of swings is going to be closer to the average than 100 swings. This is really simple stuff.

[Duik]

OMFG coins? You are an insufferable twat that will just never. Ever, ever give up even when the war is won or lost.

Just play ffs and enjoy the game. If you can afford a great 2HB AND 2 great 1HB weapons. JUST BUY BOTH AND FIGHT SHIT WITH THEM.

If it truely is "simple stuff" you should have no trouble explaining it. Simply.


Jesus Fucking Christ.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OMFG coins? You are an insufferable twat that will just never. Ever, ever give up even when the war is won or lost.

Just play ffs and enjoy the game. If you can afford a great 2HB AND 2 great 1HB weapons. JUST BUY BOTH AND FIGHT SHIT WITH THEM.

If it truely is "simple stuff" you should have no trouble explaining it. Simply.


Jesus Fucking Christ.

If you insist on trolling and spamming threads, at least try to get better at it. You've been doing this for years, and people still don't care about your nonsense.

[Ripqozko]

A couple of notes:

If you flip a single coin, you can never get the average/expected value
If you flip two coins the probability of getting the expected outcome is 50%, not 75%
If you're reducing 60 swings, each with 21 possible outcomes, to a single coin flip you're already misusing statistics and probability and any further analysis will be tainted.


I'd really like to hear Ripqozko, 7thGate, Snaggles, or Solist give their reasons why they think (if they do) that 1h is better than 2h on high-ac raid targets. I understand why using low-delay 1h weapons is better than high-delay 1h weapons (damage bonus is the same in both cases and is applied after AC is taken into account), but since 2h damage bonus scales with delay I share Vivitron's conclusion/confusion.

theres a few exceptions , abashi just wins no matter what even on high ac, for ranger ive just parsed over the years better with 1h on like 3 targets, otherwise cek sword destroys 1h badly.

[bcbrown]

theres a few exceptions , abashi just wins no matter what even on high ac, for ranger ive just parsed over the years better with 1h on like 3 targets, otherwise cek sword destroys 1h badly.

Yeah figured it was just experience and parsing that lets you know when 1h beats 2h.

[Duik]

If you insist on trolling and spamming threads, at least try to get better at it. You've been doing this for years, and people still don't care about your nonsense.

Dont respond then shit for brains.

[Duik]

Would constantly swapping 1hb to 2hb mitigate the highs/lows that are inherant in any randomized data set?

I think everyone is just over thinking it. If the difference between living/dying on a blue and winning/losing raids comes down to deciding between 2 sets of great weapons then we have already lost.

Again DSM. If it is simple stuff it should be simple for you to simply explain what you mean. Even to us simple folk. As I am sure you think of most of us. Below you. Stupid. Simple.

Go!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dont respond then shit for brains.

Ah yes, the classic "Another poster made me troll!" argument. Please take some responsibility for your own actions. I didn't force you to post nonsense. You made yourself look foolish willingly, as you have done for years.


Again DSM. If it is simple stuff it should be simple for you to simply explain what you mean. Even to us simple folk. As I am sure you think of most of us. Below you. Stupid. Simple.


I don't look down on anybody. If you treat me with respect, I respond in kind. If you attack me, I defend myself. If your feelings get hurt when I defend myself from your nonsense, then stop attacking me. It's fully within your control.

I never claimed to be perfect. I am just explaining the game with data and math. If I get something wrong, I correct it and move on. Having a dialogue is how people work out ideas and come to the correct conclusion, regardless of who is right.

If you stopped trying to shut down conversations via trolling, we'd get more answers finished on these forums.

Yeah figured it was just experience and parsing that lets you know when 1h beats 2h.

As I've been saying for years, and repeated in this thread, bring evidence to back up your position. I am glad you agree with me!

[bcbrown]

Would constantly swapping 1hb to 2hb mitigate the highs/lows that are inherant in any randomized data set? !

Since you're one of my favorite posters on this site, I spent some time to explore this question. Short answer is no. All that matters in terms of highs/lows away from the expected DPS is the total number of swings. The more times you swing, the more likely that the actual DPS is "close" to the expected/average DPS.

All that swapping between 1h and 2h does is give you a result somewhere between the result with only-1h and only-2h.

Let's say you have a 1H weapon set and a 2H weapon that both have the same expected DPS. Let's say the delays are such that you'd have half as many swings with 2h as 1H per minute. Let's say you're soloing an evenly matched mob such that all 20 values of the damage interval are equally likely. Let's say that you're confident you'll win the fight as long as you do at least half the expected DPS. Let's say the fight lasts long enough that there's an 99.94% chance of doing between half and twice the expected DPS with the 1handers. In that scenario, the 2-hander will have a 68% chance of doing between half and twice the expected DPS. Of the remaining 32%, 16% of the time you'll do less than half the expected DPS, and 16% of the time you'll do more than twice the expected DPS.

So with the 1-handers there's a 99.97% chance you'll survive the fight and an 84% chance with the 2-hander. Not taking into account any variance in the mob's damage, of course.

Numbers are taken from standard deviations of a bell curve. I'm assuming 1 standard deviation with the 1-handers and 2 standard deviations with the 2-hander, which is supported by the law of large numbers and the central limit theorem. The central limit theorem says that the variance of n samples from a distribution with variance V is V/n: double the samples, halve the variance. Variance is the square of the standard deviation, so I'm comparing 4 standard deviations for 1-handers to 1 standard deviation for 2-handers.

I'd love to get 7thGate's thoughts on this, as I'm not super confident in how I'm using standard deviations here. I've never thought about how different variances between 1- and 2-handers would affect survivability in a solo fight. And thanks to DSM for raising such an interesting topic, even if it has next to no impact on a raid encounter that requires 10-20,000 hits to kill.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's a good question; I thought people were suggesting low hits would mean a larger portion of the damage comes from the damage bonus. But it seems 2 handers give better damage bonus dps?

According to the lucy chart linked above you're looking at +11 for a prime hand one hander and +29 for a 30 delay two hander (e.g. abashi or tstaff), so is the "damage-bonus-only-ratio" 11/18 for a FoN and 29/30 for an abashi, favoring the 2 hander by a convincing 58%? (I'm not sure that the lucy chart is accurate. I'm also not sure that a two hander swings the same number of swings per round as the primary hand when dual weilding.)

It seems to me that two handers should do better relative to one handers on high ac mobs than on low ac mobs.

Going back to this original example, I realized that the 11/18 number got stuck in my head for Fist of Nature. I see that Vivitron was just using the damage bonus, but it threw me off. It's a 15/18 weapon. I'll go back to my previous example:


I'll use the damage range from my SK as a quick example. His 46/44 ratio weapon does 46-258 damage self buffed, with the 37 damage bonus. This means the damage roll range is 9-221 (the part affected by AC).

For argument's sake, we will say AoW reduces your damage rolls by half on average.

This means my average damage per hit on the 2h weapon is (9 + 221) / 2 = 115 × 0.5 = 57.5 + 37 = 94.5 damage.

At 100% haste you have 22 delay on a 46/44 weapon. You have 9 delay on an 15/18 weapon. 9 delay divided by 22 is 0.41. So you'd get 41 swings per 150 swings of the 15/18 weapons when including dual wield.

94.5 damage x 20.5 hits = 1937.25 total damage.


Using a Fist of Nature + Gharns would look more like this:

46 weapon damage from the 2h divided by 15 weapon damage from FoN is 3.06. The 221 max damage from the above weapon example divided by 3.06 is an estimated 72.2 as the max damage.

(9 + 72.2) / 2 = 40.61 x 0.5 = 20.3 damage without the damage bonus.

20.3 damage x 75 hits = 1522.5 damage + (11 bonus damage × 50 hits) = 2072.5 total damage.

This means a FoN + Gharns should out DPS a primal 2hb and a 29/30 TStaff. The 1h weapons will be more consistent to boot due to having more than double the swings. If Monks get 75% dual wields instead of 50%, the damage value increases further. Gharns has a slightly better ratio than FoN as well.

[Troxx]

It is reassuring that some things in life never change.

Truly cringeworthy!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx comes back to bloat the forums with nonsense. Sadly he doesn't know how the game works, and cannot contribute anything else to the topic.

[PatChapp]

Need to ad the fist weave swing to 2h dmg calcs
Fist weaving is easy and any even half well played 2h monk will be doing it.

[Snaggles]

theres a few exceptions , abashi just wins no matter what even on high ac, for ranger ive just parsed over the years better with 1h on like 3 targets, otherwise cek sword destroys 1h badly.

Same here with a ranger.

I can’t add the math that BC and some others are capable of. I know the dual wield page of the wiki with the offhand swing chart for rangers (75%) is dead accurate. I parsed once for 20 minutes on Bloodmaw with a 14/24 1hs and 9/24 1hb. By that logic outside triple attack for monks MH it seems accurate at 78%, but that would further favor 2hb anyways since it’s more likely to sneak a 3rd big hit in, with a better damage bonus.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Skill_Dual_Wield

Vindi isn’t a great target for a high-AC test but he is frequently killed. My best 99% haste all buffs but avatar and bard songs for a 13/19 and 14/18 is 66dps. My best for the 45/38 2hs is 74.

The 2h is technically only about a 3% better weighed ratio if you discount the DW setup by 25% in the offhand. Still the 2h is 11% better dps in the “best vs best” parse.

I too have gotten lucky with 1h. I carry them and sometimes play around for the procs, stats, or just out of boredom. 2h though, apples to apples, seems much better on average. Not dying to riposte or damage shields is a nice perk too.

I’ll probably try to get a Baton of Flame someday just for testing. I just don’t think it’s going to be consistently better than the 2h. Many rangers have bagged it for a Meljeldin for the same reason.

As for why monks do what they do? No damn clue. I know good raid DW combos still do amazing numbers. I also know most people who play Monks like melee spam. I also know the weighed DW ratios for more attainable stuff like the FoN and a cek fist/Fist of Lightning/etc is at least as good as a shovel, probably better. The jump from a normal 2h to an Abashi is a crazy jump.

The Peacebringer and IFS straight rip even at 60 but lesser monks will do anything to justify swinging an adamantite club and SoS. It’s kind of sad…

[Snaggles]

Btw, only like 1% of that was directed to Rip but my math agrees with his.

The rest was added because I blab a lot and am too lazy to multi-quote. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The Peacebringer and IFS straight rip even at 60 but lesser monks will do anything to justify swinging an adamantite club and SoS. It’s kind of sad…

I love using my addy club + baton of royal stature. Feels good, even though IFS is better. The stun procs are fun too. I already have my SK for big 2h damage.

[Crede]

way too much discussion here. epic/sos & tstaff is fine until bo staff or better. it's comical how good tstaff is for a kc wep

[Snaggles]

way too much discussion here. epic/sos & tstaff is fine until bo staff or better. it's comical how good tstaff is for a kc wep

The issue is that the tstaff with the 2h changes while once was better than epic/SoS is now in a different solar system. If people have raid DW monk weapons that’s one thing but even a generic Peacebringer smashes all other DW EC combos by a mile.

The monk discussions are always amusing. There are a few weapons which clearly are the best but people try to “do their own build”. If you don’t have spells and have to rely on a superior combat table, and ignore stuff like ratios and math, you are going to do horrible dps. And if you are a low dps monk with some kind of angle on the game, God help you and anyone stuck in that awkward elevator ride who has to hear about it.

Or whatever, just do your own thing and get outparsed by rangers and knights. That won’t sting at all.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The issue is that the tstaff with the 2h changes while once was better than epic/SoS is now in a different solar system. If people have raid DW monk weapons that’s one thing but even a generic Peacebringer smashes all other DW EC combos by a mile.

The monk discussions are always amusing. There are a few weapons which clearly are the best but people try to “do their own build”. If you don’t have spells and have to rely on a superior combat table, and ignore stuff like ratios and math, you are going to do horrible dps. And if you are a low dps monk with some kind of angle on the game, God help you and anyone stuck in that awkward elevator ride who has to hear about it.

Or whatever, just do your own thing and get outparsed by rangers and knights. That won’t sting at all.

I do agree that many DW combos will get outclassed by 2h weapons post damage table change. Most 1h weapons aren't amazing, and monks specifically get some cheap, high ratio 2handers as well. The last round of discussions was talking about Fist of Nature specifically, which I think is the second best 1h ratio weapon in the game behind gharns (not including Knight 1h weapons of course).

Fist of Nature + Gharns can outperform a primal 2hb on paper at least, so there are indeed some DW combos that will outclass most 2h weapons. Obviously Abashi should still win out, as it is the highest ratio weapon in the game as far as I am aware.

As far as I know no ones really arguing using SoS + Epic Fist or Addy Club in most fights if you have a better option, as the ratios on those 1h weapons aren't in the same ballpark as Fist of Natue.

The consistency of DW 1h weapons do give you better odds of hitting their average damage compared to a 2h weapon in a single fight. You want to parse and/or math out the weapons you are comparing. If the DW 1h weapons average damage is close to the 2h weapon average damage, the DW 1h weapons will probably be the better choice for a single target high AC fight. Getting below average damage output for your 2h weapon on an important raid target isn't fun.

[Snaggles]

I don’t think Crede was advocating for that combo as equivalent to a Tstaff. Just a jumping off point really.

This is a game of incremental gains. You use whatever is best. It’s just that for most players at this point in the timeline will get better results from a 2h. Gozzrem drops an all/all 50/43 2hb. Facesmasher and Melheldin too. That’s a helluva bar to get past for a normal player.

[Troxx]

Important raid targets are rarely brief enough fights that wild variance will exist.

An 18 man Trak burn that’s takes 10 seconds? Sure a bad run luck might be present … but the fight was over so quick it didn’t matter.

Citing AoW as an example is silly though. Even with multiple charm pets and 80-100+ players … that fight is going to be long enough that the risk of nothing but bad luck is statistically really, really (REALLY) improbable.

Point is simply that no matter how you slice it, the mantra of fast weapons for the damage bonus was turned on its head. 2handers now deal more damage bonus per unit time than fast weapons.

At 60 a 2handed weapon with a delay of 30 (tstaff) for example will have a chance to apply 29 damage bonus per hit at an interval of 3 seconds (1.5 seconds at max haste).

You would need a 1hander with a starting delay of 11 (before haste) to have greater dmg bonus potential. A delay of 12 isn’t fast enough.

No such weapon exists.

Admittedly the delay of 30 is quite literally THE sweet spot. Let’s use another example.

For a 2handed weapon with a delay of 40 (IFS) … it’s 34 dmg per 4 seconds.

You would need a 1 hander (main hand) with a delay of 13 to have mathematical parity with the dmg bonus potential of the IFS and a delay of 12 to beat it.

No such weapons exist.

This is why dual wielding for monks is so generally lame at this point. There has to be a massive (BiS endgame dual wield setups) ratio advantage to compete (beat) with 38/40 or 29/30 EC monk 2hander. At that point they only win via massive ratio superiority. If you have access to those weapons, you also have access to ToV or VP 2handers (and probably many for cheaper dkp) with ratios that far outclass the EC gear.

The higher the ac, the more relative importance the portion of your damage from damage bonus.

Math is math. It really isn’t complicated.

[Troxx]

Double post sorry

[bcbrown]

You would need a 1hander with a starting delay of 11 (before haste) to have greater dmg bonus potential. A delay of 12 isn’t fast enough.

No such weapon exists.

My friend, have you considered red (https://wiki.project1999.com/Barbed_Scale_Whip)?

[Troxx]

Touche

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You would need a 1 hander (main hand) with a delay of 13 to have mathematical parity with the dmg bonus potential of the IFS and a delay of 12 to beat it.

No such weapons exist.

You don't need mathematical parity on damage bonus, you just need to math out which set of weapons does more damage.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707134&postcount=86

People can read this post to see that a FoN + Gharns should out DPS a Primal 2hb.

As I said before, just math out both weapons and/or parse them. If they are close, the dual wield combo is going to be more consistent.


Math is math. It really isn’t complicated.

Indeed. You should actually use math sometimes to support your positions. As you say, it isn't complicated.

We can use the linked post above to check TStaff's potential damage output:

46 weapon damage from the 2h in the linked post above divided by 29 weapon damage from TStaff is 1.58. The 221 max damage from the weapon example in the linked post above divided by 1.58 is 139.87.

(9 + 139.87) / 2 = 74.4 x 0.5 = 37.2 + 29 damage bonus = 66.2 damage

66.2 damage x 30 hits = 1986 damage compared to 2072 damage at least from FoN + Gharns. That damage value is a bit lower due to gharns having a slightly better ratio. I am also assuming a 50% dual wield chance, for the 2072 number, but it sounds like Monks have a higher dual wield chance than 50%. That would further increase the 2072 damage if true.

As you can see, you don't need a 1h weapon with a delay of 12 to out DPS a TStaff.

[Raralith]

We can use the linked post above to check TStaff's potential damage output:

46 weapon damage from the 2h in the linked post above divided by 29 weapon damage from TStaff is 1.58. The 221 max damage from the weapon example in the linked post above divided by 1.58 is 139.87.

(9 + 139.87) / 2 = 74.4 x 0.5 = 37.2 + 29 damage bonus = 66.2 damage

66.2 damage x 30 hits = 1986 damage compared to 2072 damage at least from FoN + Gharns. That damage value is a bit lower due to gharns having a slightly better ratio. I am also assuming a 50% dual wield chance, for the 2072 number, but it sounds like Monks have a higher dual wield chance than 50%. That would further increase the 2072 damage if true.

As you can see, you don't need a 1h weapon with a delay of 12 to out DPS a TStaff.

Assuming the numbers check out, a 2hb tstaff is 1,986 damage vs. Tunare + Vulak weapons are 2,072 damage ignoring procs on both ends and stats you gain. A 50k 2hb from KC vs two incredibly hard to obtain BIS does 4.3% more damage? I'm assuming that doesn't even factor in 2HB weaving? As a new monk player, unless I'm the 1%, I'm basically keeping my 2HB for the vast majority of fights because it'll be more DPS? That just sounds incredibly odd.

[PatChapp]

Assuming the numbers check out, a 2hb tstaff is 1,986 damage vs. Tunare + Vulak weapons are 2,072 damage ignoring procs on both ends and stats you gain. A 50k 2hb from KC vs two incredibly hard to obtain BIS does 4.3% more damage? I'm assuming that doesn't even factor in 2HB weaving? As a new monk player, unless I'm the 1%, I'm basically keeping my 2HB for the vast majority of fights because it'll be more DPS? That just sounds incredibly odd.
2hb is better dps, if your comparing 1%er stuff abashi is going to outdps fon+gains.
If your comparing regular folk weapons,1h do not compare to a fist weaved ifs or even a peacebringer

[Jimjam]

2hb is better dps, if your comparing 1%er stuff abashi is going to outdps fon+gains.
If your comparing regular folk weapons,1h do not compare to a fist weaved ifs or even a peacebringer

Thats not to say dw doesn’t work. It does and it works well. It is just 2h works far better. Such is the blessed nature of the monk.

[Goregasmic]

This thread turned into what all threads on here look like. "I'm level 16 what should I do?" "Get gharn's and COL and call it a day".

So if I'm not mistaken, using attainable weapons for most people:

Epic fist = (9x2+11)/16 = 1.8125
SoS = (17x2)/28 = 1.2143 × 0.70 (30%* DW miss rate) = 0.85
1.8125 + 0.85 = 2.6625

IFS = (38x2+34**)/40 = 2.75

*couldn't find a confirmed number
**using IFS dmg bonus someone previously mentionned

2HB still wins over epic which the latter is definitely much harder to get than an IFS. 2handers also have a couple of advantages over 1handers anyway, especially for monks, so it isn't a win by a landslide but it is still a clear winner all factors considered. If you like 1H better it isn' like you're at a terrible disadvantage either in most situations but your mainhand pick matters a lot.

Now you could argue that some very high end 1h tilt the scale on a handful of mobs but I've been playing in end game non raid zones and I've seen a lot more monks using epic+SOS or AC+SOS than anything else. I understand there might be a sample bias there but for these guys and particularly OP that's basically all you'd need to know until access to raid weapons especially considering 1h offhands don't fire double attack until DW>150 IIRC so until then 2HB wins even more.

[Troxx]

As you can see, you don't need a 1h weapon with a delay of 12 to out DPS a TStaff.

Are you stupid or just careless in your reading comprehension? I’m hoping you’re just so excited to get to your rebuttal that your glaze over posts as you read them.

Either that or you are, sincerely, unintelligent.

What I actually said was that you need a mainhand DELAY of 11 on a level 60 to beat the DAMAGE BONUS potential of a mainhand DELAY of 30 for a 2 handed weapon.

Jesus Christ in a top hat …

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are you stupid or just careless in your reading comprehension? I’m hoping you’re just so excited to get to your rebuttal that your glaze over posts as you read them.

Either that or you are, sincerely, unintelligent.

What I actually said was that you need a mainhand DELAY of 11 on a level 60 to beat the DAMAGE BONUS potential of a mainhand DELAY of 30 for a 2 handed weapon.

Jesus Christ in a top hat …

I read it fine. Your point about 11 delay weapons is irrelevant, and I showed why. You simply need to math out the DPS difference between weapons if you want the correct answer. It isn't more complex than that. As you say, the math isn't complicated.

You are just making yourself look foolish, like you always do. Hopefully one day you will realize trolling and insulting others simply hurts your credibity. It doesn't affect me at all.

[Troxx]

You either didn’t read it or you didn’t understand it.

Damage bonus favors 2handers. When choosing what weapon to use it used to be that for high ac raid targets you wanted fast weapons for damage bonus application. It USED to be that lower ratio fast 1 handers could beat out superior ratio 2 handers.

Now it is the opposite. Damage bonus numbers ALWAYS favor 2handed now.

So .. now you need massive ratio advantages to make the DW setup (ie BiS gharns and FoN) preferable to a tradable weapon that drops in KC. Hell … you more or less did the math to prove what I said was right.

/golfclap

You didn’t actually read (or understand) what I literally wrote:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707544&postcount=97

Try reading it again halfwit.

Now run your math for the raid 2hb equivalent. Quit using primal as the alternative- nobody uses that shit after it procs:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Abashi%60s_Rod_of_Disempowerment
https://wiki.project1999.com/Bo_Staff_of_Trorsmang
https://wiki.project1999.com/Shovel_of_the_Harvest
https://wiki.project1999.com/Facesmasher

There are several to choose from. If you have BiS dual wield available to you … you can get these instead or as well.

Quit comparing gharn/FoN to commonlands tunnel garbage

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx still doesn't understand the best way to figure out which weapons deal more damage is to math it out and/or parse it. He prefers generalizations which don't always apply. If he read my previous posts, he would know that none of his assumptions about what he thinks I said or read are true.

Troxx has reading comprehension issues, and projects them on to other people. Or it's just part of his trolling routine. He could simply agree that parsing and math is more accurate than generalizations, but he just always wants to be correct. It's sad.

[PatChapp]

Your calculations aren't very accurate either, as you didn't add fist weaving into the 2hb calcs
Any monk trying to maximize 2hb dmg will be fist weaving.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your calculations aren't very accurate either, as you didn't add fist weaving into the 2hb calcs
Any monk trying to maximize 2hb dmg will be fist weaving.

I was also assuming a 50% dual wield chance, but I believe Monks have a higher dual wield chance than that. Will test it later. A 75% dual wield chance would offset fistweaving in my previous examples. Fist weaving would give you 15 hits with a 9 damage weapon when using TStaff and epic, vs. 12 hits from a 16 damage gharns when looking at a 75% dual wield chance.

[Jimjam]

Whats the double attack chance on the offhand? I know it is zero for a long time. Does it just jump up to full (ie same as primary?) after 150 skill or does it creep up?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did a quick test with my Monk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVkVNorTzIQ . He is only 52, so damage bonuses will be different between level 52 and level 60. Damage bonuses can be found here: https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

I only used my 34% worn haste. I didn't click my Epic to ensure I didn't have a point in the fight where the spell haste wore off, which could offset the DPS. I did 3 fights for each test. I also didn't use any combat abilities like Flying Kick.

I picked the two Giants under the FM Fort because they are level 50, and my Monk is level 52. This should be a better representation of a higher than average AC fight, compared to my Monk fighting a mob who's level is in the mid 40s. From my experience I believe these Giants have a bit higher AC than normal too, but could be wrong. My Dual Wield Skill Level is 252.

First test is Epic Fist Main Hand + Stave of Shielding Offhand:


"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:16 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:17 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 24",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:18 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 25",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:20 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:20 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:22 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:23 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:24 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:24 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 32",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:26 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 31",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:29 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 19",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:30 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:33 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 28",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:33 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:34 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 21",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:35 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:37 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:37 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 25",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:38 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 36",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:40 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 23",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:41 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 29",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:42 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 20",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:42 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:43 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 13",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:46 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 35",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:48 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:48 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:49 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 19",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:50 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:52 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 25",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:56 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:58 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 29",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:59 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:00 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:01 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 35",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:04 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 38",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:05 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:07 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 20",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:10 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 42",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:11 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 20",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:11 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:12 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:24 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 41",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:30 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:30 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:30 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 20",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:30 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:31 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 25",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:33 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 25",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:33 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:35 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:36 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:36 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:37 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:37 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:38 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:38 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:39 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 11",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:41 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 23",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:41 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 20",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:42 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:43 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:44 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:44 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:45 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 20",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:47 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:47 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 44",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:48 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:48 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:49 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 29",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:50 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 36",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:53 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:55 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 19",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:56 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 35",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:56 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 25",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:59 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:59 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:02 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:04 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 21",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:04 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 23",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:07 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:07 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:10 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:11 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 35",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:13 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 31",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:00 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:03 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:04 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:05 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:06 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:07 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:09 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:11 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:11 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 30",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:12 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:13 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:14 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:16 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:19 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 28",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:20 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 31",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:22 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:23 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:23 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 31",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:24 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 43",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:26 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 37",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:28 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:28 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 24",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:29 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:30 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 25",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:31 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 12",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:31 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 23",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:32 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 31",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:34 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:35 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:36 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 40",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:37 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 13",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:38 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 31",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:40 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:41 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:42 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 41",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:43 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:43 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:44 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 24",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:46 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:46 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:47 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 12",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:47 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 27",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:48 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 23",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:50 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:50 2024] You punch Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:15 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 66",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:15 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:17 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:17 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:19 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 20",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:23 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:25 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:29 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:33 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 30",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:37 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:45 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 4",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:47 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:49 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:49 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 46",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:53 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:55 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 13",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:02:55 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 32",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:02 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 9",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:04 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:06 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 13",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:10 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:12 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 37",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:03:14 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 47",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:20 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:22 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 57",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:30 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 49",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:30 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:32 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 55",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:37 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 53",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:37 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 24",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:39 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 2",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:41 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 36",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:41 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 41",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:43 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 37",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:45 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 23",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:47 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:49 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:49 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 29",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:55 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 19",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:55 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:06:58 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 23",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:02 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 39",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:02 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:04 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 5",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:06 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 29",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:06 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 37",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:10 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 57",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:12 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 48",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:07:14 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 5",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:00 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:02 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 2",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:04 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:06 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:08 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 28",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:10 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 57",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:10 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:12 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:12 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 28",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:15 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 29",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:15 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 2",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:17 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 59",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:21 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 24",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:23 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 2",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:25 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:25 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 42",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:27 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 5",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:31 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:31 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:35 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 31",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:35 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 34",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:42 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 2",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:44 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 49",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:44 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 59",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:48 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 9",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:48 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 19",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:10:50 2024] You crush Eldak Howlingbear for 9",


59 seconds + 54 seconds + 50 seconds

4999 damage 163 seconds = 30.67 DPS

Second test is Imbued Fighters Staff. I was unequipping it to get Epic Fist Dual Wield hits in-between swings:


"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:25 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:25 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:28 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:28 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 19",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:31 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:31 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:34 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 21",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:34 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 12",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:43 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 24",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:47 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 21",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:53 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:53 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 15",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:58 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:15:01 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 1",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:51 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 16",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:51 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 1",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:57 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 5",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:02 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:05 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:08 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 7",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:12 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 5",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:14 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 14",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:33 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 30",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:15 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 17",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:15 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 20",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:18 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 12",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:27 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 1",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:27 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 1",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:30 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:33 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 3",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:36 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:42 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 31",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:42 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 11",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:48 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 26",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:51 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 7",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:51 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:53 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 18",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:57 2024] You punch Mentrax Mountainbone for 10",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:15 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 54",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:15 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 119",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:18 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 67",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:18 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:21 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 94",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:24 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 83",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:24 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 75",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:27 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 133",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:36 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 56",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:39 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 79",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:42 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:42 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 64",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:48 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 79",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:51 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:54 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 97",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:57 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 71",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:14:57 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 97",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:35 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 69",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:35 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 67",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:38 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 100",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:47 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 169",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:47 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 53",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:50 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 62",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:56 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 114",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:16:59 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 86",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:02 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 134",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:05 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 52",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:05 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 94",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:11 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 132",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:17 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 102",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:26 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 140",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:17:29 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 52",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:08 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 151",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:11 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 162",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:14 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 45",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:17 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 154",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:20 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 123",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:23 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 94",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:23 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 48",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:26 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 71",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:26 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 33",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:29 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 77",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:29 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 99",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:35 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 29",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:44 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:44 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 60",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:47 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 129",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:48 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 101",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:50 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 67",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:56 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:56 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 85",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:59 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 22",
"[Sun Nov 17 12:21:59 2024] You crush Mentrax Mountainbone for 65",


46 seconds + 58 seconds + 51 seconds = 155 seconds

4883 damage over 155 seconds = 31.5 DPS

The DPS is basically identical between Epic Fist + SoS and Imbued Fighters Staff + Punches. 30.66 DPS vs 31.5 DPS at level 52. The total damage from the 1h weapons was a bit higher too. Obviously this is because the damage bonus on 2h weapons at level 52 is lower than level 60, but remember that OP is currently level 16.

This is why I keep saying people need to math things out and/or do parsing. Sometimes people over generalize. Obviously 2h weapons got a big boost, but that doesn't mean that they are always better at all times, or always leagues ahead of their 1 handed Dual Wield counterparts.

When looking at Dual Wield chance, I had 209 punches vs 101 crushes in the 1h test, so that is a 48% chance to dual wield. For the 2h weapon I had 63 punches vs 92 crushes, which is a 68% chance to Dual Wield. This assumes I never made any errors when unequipping the 2h weapon. Given the average between 48 and 68 is 58, and double attack is included in these numbers, Dual Wield Chance seems to still be closer to 50%. Perhaps the higher delay on the Stave of Shielding was blocking some extra Dual Wield swings, especially since I wasn't using Epic haste.

Just to defend "napkin" math, we can do the math as well with the given data:

Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 10
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 44
Epic Fist Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (10 + 44) / 2 = 27

209 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 104 hits

(27 * 104) = 2808 Damage

Stave of Shielding Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 2
Stave of Shielding Maximum Damage (Off Hand) = 66
Stave of Shielding Average Damage (Off Hand) = (66 + 2) / 2 = 34

101 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 50 hits

34 * 50 = 1700 Damage

2808 + 1700 = 4508 Average Damage compared to 4999 Actual Damage.

============

Imbued Fighters Staff Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 22
Imbued Fighters Staff Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 169
Imbued Fighters Staff Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (169 + 22) / 2 = 95.5

92 Swings * 0.5 hit rate = 46 hits

95.5 * 46 = 4393 Damage

Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 1
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Off Hand) = 31
Epic Fist Average Damage (Off Hand) = (1 + 31) / 2 = 16

63 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 31 hits

16 * 31 = 496 Damage

4393 + 496 = 4889 Damage compared to 4883 Actual Damage.

In this scenario I did above average damage with the 1h Dual Wield weapons. This is more likely to occur in a short period, due to the larger number of swings Dual Wield gets. The 2h weapon performed at basically the average. This is due to what I mentioned in an earlier post. The Dual Wield weapons are getting 2x the swings of the 2h Weapon + Punches. If every 150 swings is one coin toss (Tails = Below Average, Heads = Above Average), you'll get the following possibilities:

1h Dual Wield Weapons:

Tails + Tails = Below Average DPS
Tails + Heads = Average DPS
Heads + Tails = Average DPS
Heads + Heads = Above Average DPS

2h Weapons:

Tails = Below Average DPS
Heads = Above Average DPS

I got Heads + Heads on the 1h Dual Wield Weapons, and Tails on the 2h Weapon, as I was just below Average. In this specific scenario, Below Average was very close to the average, but it could have been worse. This is something to consider when determining which weapon set you want to use when fighting a single target raid mob. Over hundreds of fights the average will even out of course, but you'll only be fighting 1 AoW every 7 days, assuming you raid every week.

=================

Let's project these weapons to level 60 using the level 60 damage bonuses:

Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 12
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 46
Epic Fist Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (10 + 44) / 2 = 29

209 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 104 hits

(29 * 104) = 3016 Damage

Stave of Shielding Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 2
Stave of Shielding Maximum Damage (Off Hand) = 66
Stave of Shielding Average Damage (Off Hand) = (66 + 2) / 2 = 34

101 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 50 hits

34 * 50 = 1700 Damage

3016 + 1700 = 4716 Average Damage

=========

Imbued Fighters Staff Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 38
Imbued Fighters Staff Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 185
Imbued Fighters Staff Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (185 + 38) / 2 = 111.5

92 Swings * 0.5 hit rate = 46 hits

111.5 * 46 = 5,129 Damage

Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 1
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Off Hand) = 31
Epic Fist Average Damage (Off Hand) = (1 + 31) / 2 = 16

63 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 31 hits

16 * 31 = 496 Damage

5,129 + 496 = 5625 Average Damage

At level 60 the gap between Imbued Fighters Staff and Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding obviously increases due to the increase in the damage bonus. If you are not switching out Imbued Fighters Staff every swing due to laziness (many people do not switch out their 2h weapon every swing), the Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding would still do basically equal damage to Imbued Fighters staff in the same video example with a level 60 Monk.

[Goregasmic]

I was also assuming a 50% dual wield chance, but I believe Monks have a higher dual wield chance than that.

Formula is (char level + dw skill)/base

No one knows the real base number and if they're the same for everybody apparently, according to the DW wiki page.

Base 400 means 22% miss chance but base 600 is 52%.

[Troxx]

If you are not switching out Imbued Fighters Staff every swing due to laziness .... the Epic Fist + Stave of Shielding would still do basically equal damage to Imbued Fighters staff.

Lol, no. Lazy ass autoattacking without going for the offhand punch both IFS and Tstaff will leave epic + X in the dust at 60. Does your napkin math include the fact that monks at level 60 will triple attack with their primary hand?

Maybe finish leveling your monk to 60 and give it a whirl. Actually parse it maybe?

The second the 2h dmg bonus change went live I dumped my epic fist within the first few hours of parsing. Prior to the patch they were very similar dps. After the patch it was night/day different.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol, no. Lazy ass autoattacking without going for the offhand punch both IFS and Tstaff will leave epic + X in the dust at 60. Does your napkin math include the fact that monks at level 60 will triple attack with their primary hand?

Maybe finish leveling your monk to 60 and give it a whirl. Actually parse it maybe?

The second the 2h dmg bonus change went live I dumped my epic fist within the first few hours of parsing. Prior to the patch they were very similar dps. After the patch it was night/day different.

My previous post was a parse + math, and the data shows I am correct. Clearly you didn't read it, as usual.

You have nothing to show right now, so your opinion is baseless. Why don't you provide those parses since you did them already?

[Jimjam]

According to Torven’s research (https://www.eqemulator.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40543) on mob avoidance and mitigation, common NPCs cap out at about 200 mitigation from level 50, whereas the harder velious boss mobs have significant ac (we’re talking AoW 900, Vulak 1000). I make the assumption p99 echos these findings, if not matches them perfectly.

While your parse against the giants is very useful to do a comparison for weapons against xp mobs (and according to Torven should be applicable for xp mobs all the way to 60 thanks to that mitigation cap of 200), I don’t believe it has much generalisability for the harder bosses, which seems to be a focus of the current tangent of discussion.

[Jimjam]

Just as a follow up to my previous post, I do want to point out I'm making a hell of an assumption that the p99 mitigation values on mobs are close to classic / Torven's derived values. I admit when theoryquesting, I tend to come from a position of 'how p99 should be' not 'how p99 actually plays out' - there is often a big discrepency between these positions.

[Duik]

^ What he/she/they said.

No disrespect. At all.

If I could use my actual face as an avatar without you all vomiting. I would.

DSM knoes All. KNOWONE Else Does.

[zelld52]

2hb out damages 1h even on high ax raid mobs. People wear the tuna fist / gharn rock to tank and for the stats, but for dPS there’s 4 better weps listed above.

[Duik]

Oh noes. zelld52 noes nuffin.
I Gnoh Gnuffin.
C wat I did there?

Caviat. In This Timeline.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Whenever parses and math are produced, you get posters like Duik, Troxx, and Croco spamming threads with trolling and nonsense.

If they think I am wrong, they could provide math and parses of their own. Sadly they don't do this. I have admitted to being wrong on these forums plenty of times, everybody can search the forum and see it. You can't say the same for posters like Troxx. I will happily do so again if better evidence than mine is provided.

The simple truth remains that 1h weapons are not always as bad as people try to claim. I did a quick video + parse which shows exactly that:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707853&postcount=113

I showed that Epic Fist + SoS will out-DPS Imbued Fighters Staff at level 52 if you don't unequip Imbued Fighter Staff every swing. Even when unequipping IFS every swing, the DPS was matched in the video. This is why generalizations are not always great. In the low 50s the 2h damage bonus is much lower, so they aren't as good. If you just believed the generalization about 2h being better, you wouldn't know this. Remember OP is level 16.

I am not sure why people are angry about this. I think it's a good thing that players have more weapon choices.

People wear the tuna fist / gharn rock to tank and for the stats, but for dPS there’s 4 better weps listed above.

Fist of Nature and Gharns out DPSes most 2h weapons. I don't think anybody has said they will out DPS an Abashi's. It's fine to use Fist of Nature + Gharns for DPS.

[bcbrown]

Did a quick test with my Monk

Thanks for running a test! I don't think 2-3 minutes per side is really enough to draw any solid conclusions, but at least it's a start. One question I had is what are your hand-to-hand, 1hb, and 2hb skill levels?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for running a test! I don't think 2-3 minutes per side is really enough to draw any solid conclusions, but at least it's a start. One question I had is what are your hand-to-hand, 1hb, and 2hb skill levels?

If people want to parse more, that would be great! Sadly people are not posting data to suppprt their claims.

Three minutes is enough to see if there is a vast difference between the two weapon setups. A rusty dagger that lucked out and got a 100% hit rate with all max damage rolls would still be well below the DPS of a significantly superior weapon that parsed normally in a 3 minute parse.

2hb and 1hb are 244. Hand to Hand was 230 and went to 231 in the video. So you could say the Epic Fist + SoS setup was at a bit of a disadvantage.

[Troxx]

1) 2hander dmg bonus scales up with level. The higher level you are the more advantageous the 2h dmg bonus to 1 handed.

2) Monks triple attack mainhand at 60. I trust that most posters here are smart enough to see how this tips the scales massively in favor of 2hand weapons.

3) Thanks for a 2-3 minute parse on a level 52 monk? You successfully provided parses of woefully insufficient length on a low level scrub and want to extrapolate that to the performance of level 60 monks?

Lol

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

Monk primary dmg bonus at level 52 for 1handers: 9
Monk primary damage bonus at level 60 for 1handers: 11
IFS (40 delay) dmg bonus at level 52: 18
IFS (40 delay) dmg bonus at level 60: 34

So for the 1hander you had a 22% bump in dmg bonus 52 vs 60
For IFS there is an 89% bump in dmg bonus 52 vs 60

Lol

Level up to 60 and try again?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

1) 2hander dmg bonus scales up with level. The higher level you are the more advantageous the 2h dmg bonus to 1 handed.

2) Monks triple attack mainhand at 60. I trust that most posters here are smart enough to see how this tips the scales massively in favor of 2hand weapons.

3) Thanks for a 2-3 minute parse on a level 52 monk? You successfully provided parses of woefully insufficient length on a low level scrub and want to extrapolate that to the performance of level 60 monks?

Lol

Troxx still has provided no data for any of his claims. Luckily people generally ignore him at this point. One day he may recover his reputation, but right now it's in the trash.

He still hasn't read my previous post, https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707853&postcount=113 which went over the damage bonus increase with level.

[bcbrown]

Three minutes is enough to see if there is a vast difference between the two weapon setups. A rusty dagger that lucked out and got a 100% hit rate with all max damage rolls would still be well below the DPS of a significantly superior weapon that parsed normally in a 3 minute parse.

2hb and 1hb are 244. Hand to Hand was 230 and went to 231 in the video. So you could say the Epic Fist + SoS setup was at a bit of a disadvantage.

Three minutes is enough to tell between a rusty weapon and a BiS weapon, yeah. It's not enough to tell between two weapon-sets that are within 10% of each other. For example, if you want a 95% probability that the number of heads on a fair coin is between 40% and 60%, you need to flip the coin 500 times.

I asked in part because I noticed the skill-up for h2h in the log. But the other reason I asked is because you have a 75% hit rate for the 1hb but just a 57% hit rate for 2hb. 62% hitrate for main-hand h2h, 60% for offhand h2h, so I wondered if there might be a skill disparity between 1hb and 2hb.

I'd expect at the same skill level for 1h and 2h to have similar hit rates, wouldn't you? I think it must be an artifact of the small sample size.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Three minutes is enough to tell between a rusty weapon and a BiS weapon, yeah. It's not enough to tell between two weapon-sets that are within 10% of each other. For example, if you want a 95% probability that the number of heads on a fair coin is between 40% and 60%, you need to flip the coin 500 times.

I asked in part because I noticed the skill-up for h2h in the log. But the other reason I asked is because you have a 75% hit rate for the 1hb but just a 57% hit rate for 2hb. 62% hitrate for main-hand h2h, 60% for offhand h2h, so I wondered if there might be a skill disparity between 1hb and 2hb.

I'd expect at the same skill level for 1h and 2h to have similar hit rates, wouldn't you? I think it must be an artifact of the small sample size.

If you want to parse longer and provide video evidence, please do! Sadly you have no data either, so you have nothing to balance against my data. You aren't helping the conversation.

[bcbrown]

I'd be happy to heal your monk on my cleric or druid for a longer parse.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'd be happy to heal your monk on my cleric or druid for a longer parse.

Please do some parsing yourself, so it isn't only me ever providing data in these conversations. It's quite one sided how little data is provided by other posters. I've provided a lot of data over the years.

[Troxx]

Bcbrown offered to help you get longer parses. Why did respond so rudely to that?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bcbrown offered to help you get longer parses. Why did respond so rudely to that?

You have been rude the entire conversation. You have also provided no data. Fix yourself first please. Where are those parses you did after the 2h change occured? You could post those!

[bcbrown]

Going back to your data. You showed 4999 damage / 30.67 DPS with the 1h setup, and 4883 damage / 31.5 DPS with the 2h setup and fist weaving.

The hand-to-hand damage across the two datasets is pretty consistent after accounting for the main-hand damage bonus. Average hit of 22.8 in main-hand and 14.8 in off-hand weaving. 1hb has 76 hits and 25 misses for a 75% hit rate, total damage of 2035, and a 26.8 average hit. 2hb has 53 hits and 40 misses for a 57% hit rate, total damage of 4319, and 81.5 average hit.

If the 2hb had the same average hit but a 75% hit rate to match the 1hb data, it would have 70 hits with a total damage of 5705. Leaving the h2h data along this would result in the 2h setup doing a total of 6269 or 40.4 DPS vs the observed 30.67 DPS of the 1h setup.


If the 1hb had the same average hit but a 57% hit rate to match the 2hb data, it would have 58 hits for 1554 damage. Leaving the h2h data along this would result in the 1h setup doing a total of 4518 damage or 27.7 DPS vs the observed 31.5 DPS of the 2h setup.

[Troxx]

If the 2hb had the same average hit but a 75% hit rate to match the 1hb data, it would have 70 hits with a total damage of 5705. Leaving the h2h data along this would result in the 2h setup doing a total of 6269 or 40.4 DPS vs the observed 30.67 DPS of the 1h setup.

Careful explaining too much or he might start to understand why short parses are so prone to error.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Going back to your data. You showed 4999 damage / 30.67 DPS with the 1h setup, and 4883 damage / 31.5 DPS with the 2h setup and fist weaving.

The hand-to-hand damage across the two datasets is pretty consistent after accounting for the main-hand damage bonus. Average hit of 22.8 in main-hand and 14.8 in off-hand weaving. 1hb has 76 hits and 25 misses for a 75% hit rate, total damage of 2035, and a 26.8 average hit. 2hb has 53 hits and 40 misses for a 57% hit rate, total damage of 4319, and 81.5 average hit.

If the 2hb had the same average hit but a 75% hit rate to match the 1hb data, it would have 70 hits with a total damage of 5705. Leaving the h2h data along this would result in the 2h setup doing a total of 6269 or 40.4 DPS vs the observed 30.67 DPS of the 1h setup.


If the 1hb had the same average hit but a 57% hit rate to match the 2hb data, it would have 58 hits for 1554 damage. Leaving the h2h data along this would result in the 1h setup doing a total of 4518 damage or 27.7 DPS vs the observed 31.5 DPS of the 2h setup.

Yeah you need to read my post more carefully: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707853&postcount=113 I showed the expected average assuming the same hit rate for both weapon sets. 1h still wins vs 2h without fist weaving (many people don't fist weave). Also in a single fight 1h has a better chance to be average or above average, as seen in the video, and I explained this in the linked post and previous posts.

You really need to start posting some data of your own if you want to prove me wrong.

[bcbrown]

Careful explaining too much or he might start to understand why short parses are so prone to error.

The part I find amusing is that it's the same thing as his original point about variance in small samples!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The part I find amusing is that it's the same thing as his original point about variance in small samples!

Incorrect. The game you are playing is simply you will never agree that a parse is the "correct" length. When I've done longer parses in the past this nonsense was the same.

You should do some parsing yourself and show us how it's done!

[Troxx]

The part I find amusing is that it's the same thing as his original point about variance in small samples!

DSM has never been consistent. His whims flap aimlessly in accordance with whatever crackpot point he is trying to make. He’s also happy to cherry-pick whatever most conveniently supports … whatever crackpot point he is trying to make.

He flip flops a lot.

Some things never change.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM has never been consistent. His whims flap aimlessly in accordance with whatever crackpot point he is trying to make. He’s also happy to cherry-pick whatever most conveniently supports … whatever crackpot point he is trying to make.

He flip flops a lot.

Some things never change.

The only consistency is your trolling and lack of data. You have only posted two parses that I know of on these forums. The Mage DPS excel spreadsheet screenshot, which you admitted was incorrect due to Gamparse not working well in groups, and a bad parse from your Paladin that you retracted.

I can only conclude you have no idea how to correctly parse data and provide it. This is why you don't do it, it would be too embarassing. Spamming threads until people give up is your only strategy.

[bcbrown]

Yeah you need to read my post more carefully: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707853&postcount=113 I showed the expected average assuming the same hit rate for both weapon sets. 1h still wins vs 2h without fist weaving (many people don't fist weave). Also in a single fight 1h has a better chance to be average or above average, as seen in the video, and I explained this in the linked post and previous posts.

You really need to start posting some data of your own if you want to prove me wrong.

Looks like your conclusion is that in your parse the 1h setup performed above expected, the 2h setup performed about as expected, the 2hb setup beat the 1hb setup by about 2.6% of DPS, and you think this supports the position that 1h is better than 2h?

If your position is that sometimes, when you're lucky with 1h and unlucky with 2h, 1h is almost as good as 2h, then I have no disagreement with you.

[Snaggles]

When I have time to play I want to parse with a 60 monk using like velium 2hbs on Bloodmaw. Not for dps, but to verify with the same haste how many hit attempts are made more than my ranger who clearly doesn’t have triple attack.

Triple-attack isn’t guaranteed but it’s a factor to consider. Triple attack on a 2h is three substantial applications of a large damage bonus. It is effectively haste on the main hand.

Right now whatever napkin math model you use (mine is MH damage x 2 + Damage Bonus/delay) doesn’t take into account an extra swing. Especially when it’s 200+ instead of 50+. Even without fist-clicking, or whatever you want to call it, that’s a factor I don’t think we are tracking.

[Troxx]

https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

Monk primary dmg bonus at level 52 for 1handers: 9
Monk primary damage bonus at level 60 for 1handers: 11
IFS (40 delay) dmg bonus at level 52: 18
IFS (40 delay) dmg bonus at level 60: 34

So for the 1hander you had a 22% bump in dmg bonus 52 vs 60
For IFS there is an 89% bump in dmg bonus 52 vs 60


Bcbrown, I’m not exactly curious why he failed to even respond to this or acknowledge that monks triple attack at level 60 with mainhand.

He ignores anything they doesn’t jive with his preconceived notions.

Remember when he very assertively told a young monk there was no fail message for FD? Or that ANYONE on ANY CLASS could survive AoW if only there were an infinite number of clerics?

Dude isn’t exactly a fount of knowledge.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Looks like your conclusion is that in your parse the 1h setup performed above expected, the 2h setup performed about as expected, the 2hb setup beat the 1hb setup by about 2.6% of DPS, and you think this supports the position that 1h is better than 2h?

If your position is that sometimes, when you're lucky with 1h and unlucky with 2h, 1h is almost as good as 2h, then I have no disagreement with you.

Last time I checked 4508 damage (assuming 50% hit rate) from the 1h combo beats 4393 damage from the 2h weapon (assuming 50% hit rate) without fist weaving. Quite a few people, including Toxigen, are too lazy t:cool:o fist weave.

Last time I checked, a 75% chance to get average or above average DPS in a fight is better than a 50% chance to get below average DPS in a single fight.

You really need to read other peoples posts if you are going to reply to them.

Bcbrown, I’m not exactly curious why he failed to even respond to this or acknowledge that monks triple attack at level 60 with mainhand.

He ignores anything they doesn’t jive with his preconceived notions.

Remember when he very assertively told a young monk there was no fail message for FD? Or that ANYONE on ANY CLASS could survive AoW if only there were an infinite number of clerics?

Dude isn’t exactly a fount of knowledge.

Troxx doesn't understand triple attack is at 60, and my monk is at 52. He can simply agree that 1h can be better at lower levels due to the damage bonus on 2h being lower. But his trolling routine doesnt allow him to admit he was wrong in any scenario.

He still hasn't posted any data by the way. He just talks nonsense and spams.

[Troxx]

The part I find amusing is that it's the same thing as his original point about variance in small samples!

[bcbrown]

Troxx doesn't understand triple attack is at 60, and my monk is at 52. He can simply agree that 1h can be better at lower levels due to the damage bonus on 2h being lower.

Wait, this conversation started with high-ac raid targets. Are you fighting AoW at level 52? Could you clarify your position? If it's that sometimes while leveling 1hb is almost as good as 2hb, then I have no disagreement.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx and Bcbrown have a sample size of 0. They won't remedy this issue.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wait, this conversation started with high-ac raid targets. Are you fighting AoW at level 52? Could you clarify your position? If it's that sometimes while leveling 1hb is almost as good as 2hb, then I have no disagreement.

You can reread what I've said. You clearly need to, as you think 4508 damage is worse than 4393. I am not sure we can continue the conversation while you think that.

I am just glad to show people that generalizations about 2h weapons are not always true, and you should parse the weapons in question. Clearly 2h does not always beat 1h.

[bcbrown]

The only parse in this thread showed 2h beating 1h.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only parse in this thread showed 2h beating 1h.

4999 1h is greater than 4883 2h, and 4508 1h is greater than 4393 2h. We can't have a conversation while you don't understand this.

[bcbrown]

4999 damage over 163 seconds = 30.67
4883 damage over 155 seconds = 31.5 DPS

Which is better?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Which is better?

4999 damage, the mob is closer to being dead. Ill take the extra damage over the slight DPS variance.

[Troxx]

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I always find it amazing that posters like Bcbrown and Troxx can never concede any ground, even when the evidence is factually not in their favor. They just have to keep spamming and dodging because being wrong is unthinkable.

It shouldn't be hard for Bcbrown and Troxx to say "Epic Fist + SoS is factually better than IFS when you don't fist weave on a 50% hit chance average for both weapons at level 52. We should let other players know about this kind of nuance so they can play better".

[Troxx]

*factually

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNHFodW5sOWJmbGJrdnVzcno2ejlwb2h 5eWFnYWd2YXJ2NXNtMWFiZCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/Usceef0UgzK3C/giphy.webp

[DeathsSilkyMist]

*factually

Thank you for admitting defeat. Troxx and Bcbrown can look at this snippet from my previous post and show us where IFS without fist weaving outdamages Epic Fist + SoS on a 50% hit average. This is using real P99 data from a level 52 Monk.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707853&postcount=113


Epic Fist Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 10
Epic Fist Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 44
Epic Fist Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (10 + 44) / 2 = 27

209 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 104 hits

(27 * 104) = 2808 Damage

Stave of Shielding Minimum Damage (Off Hand) = 2
Stave of Shielding Maximum Damage (Off Hand) = 66
Stave of Shielding Average Damage (Off Hand) = (66 + 2) / 2 = 34

101 swings * 0.5 hit rate = 50 hits

34 * 50 = 1700 Damage

2808 + 1700 = 4508 Average Damage

============

Imbued Fighters Staff Minimum Damage (Primary Hand) = 22
Imbued Fighters Staff Maximum Damge (Primary Hand) = 169
Imbued Fighters Staff Average Damage (Primary Hand) = (169 + 22) / 2 = 95.5

92 Swings * 0.5 hit rate = 46 hits

95.5 * 46 = 4393 Average Damage

[Snaggles]

I’m going to put on a limb here and say…nobody cares about a level 52 monk.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m going to put on a limb here and say…nobody cares about a level 52 monk.

OP is level 16, and was asking for advise about weapons. I'd say OP cares about their weapon options while leveling. Using a generalization where you assume OP is 60 and fist weaving without actually specifying those factors is not a great idea for new players or players unfamiliar with melee characters.

[bcbrown]

Thank you for admitting defeat. Troxx and Bcbrown can look at this snippet from my previous post and show us where IFS without fist weaving outdamages Epic Fist + SoS on a 50% hit average. This is using real P99 data from a level 52 Monk.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707853&postcount=113

You're comparing 4508 napkin-math damage for the 1h setup to 4393 napkin-math damage for the 2h setup without fist weaving. The number of hits for the 1h napkin-math comes from a 163 second parse, giving 27.6 DPS. The number of hits for the 2h napkin-math comes from a 155 second parse, giving 28.3 DPS.

Your numbers show the 2h setup without fist weaving doing higher DPS than the 1h setup.

[Troxx]

Your numbers show the 2h setup without fist weaving doing higher DPS than the 1h setup.

This is too funny

[Snaggles]

OP is level 16, and was asking for advise about weapons. I'd say OP cares about their weapon options while leveling. Using a generalization where you assume OP is 60 and fist weaving without actually specifying those factors is not a great idea for new players or players unfamiliar with melee characters.

I’ve lost track due to this dumpster fire.

Pretty easy then, aside from the answers I expect on page 1-2:
Get a Jade mace or something
Get a Peacebringer or IFS for 30-60

Feel free to use a Fist and SoS if you want to get smashed by rangers and knights.

[Troxx]

I’ve lost track due to this dumpster fire.

Pretty easy then, aside from the answers I expect on page 1-2:
Get a Jade mace or something
Get a Peacebringer or IFS for 30-60

Feel free to use a Fist and SoS if you want to get smashed by rangers and knights.

/thread

This is the correct answer. OP needs to ignore literally everything else.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're comparing 4508 napkin-math damage for the 1h setup to 4393 napkin-math damage for the 2h setup without fist weaving. The number of hits for the 1h napkin-math comes from a 163 second parse, giving 27.6 DPS. The number of hits for the 2h napkin-math comes from a 155 second parse, giving 28.3 DPS.

Your numbers show the 2h setup without fist weaving doing higher DPS than the 1h setup.

I literally said in that post "without fistweaving". Please read for once. Many players don't fist weave, including Toxigen. Quite a few players don't even know you can do it.

Again, this is why generalizations aren't great. People may not assume "with fistweaving" when you use the generalization "2h is better than 1h".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ve lost track due to this dumpster fire.

Pretty easy then, aside from the answers I expect on page 1-2:
Get a Jade mace or something
Get a Peacebringer or IFS for 30-60

Feel free to use a Fist and SoS if you want to get smashed by rangers and knights.

In the low 50s Epic + SoS is outdamaging IFS factually without fistweaving. I just showed it: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707853&postcount=113 . Please stop posting inaccurate information. You aren't helping OP. 2h damage bonus is lower at lower levels.

[bcbrown]

I literally said in that post "without fistweaving". Please read for once. Many players don't fist weave, including Toxigen. Quite a few players don't even know you can do it.

Again, this is why generalizations aren't great. People may not assume "with fistweaving" when you use the generalization "2h is better than 1h".

You may want to re-read what you're quoting. I'm pointing out that even without fistweaving, your math has 2h doing higher DPS than 1h: 28.3 2h vs 27.6 1h.

[Troxx]

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You may want to re-read what you're quoting. I'm pointing out that even without fistweaving, your math has 2h doing higher DPS than 1h: 28.3 2h vs 27.6 1h.

1h napkin-math comes from a 163 second parse... The number of hits for the 2h napkin-math comes from a 155 second parse...


Nice try! That was a good line of attack on my reasoning. But you forgot to take into account double attack. It's possible the 2h weapon got more than average double attacks in my video. You need to look at the pure swing average if you want to remove the variance from the two tests.

Epic Fist is a 9/16 weapon, and IFS is a 38/40 weapon. 16 divided by 40 is 0.4. This means you get 40 swings of IFS for every 100 swings of Epic Fist.

Looking at a level 52 Monk using the data from this post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3707853&postcount=113

40 * 95.5 = 3820 damage from IFS.

27 * 100 = 2700 damage from Epic Fist.

Using the 48% dual wield rate from the video would be 48 swings from SoS.

34 * 48 = 1632 damage from SoS.

You are looking at 3820 damage from IFS vs 4332 damage from Epic + SoS at 100% hit rate. Most likely the dual wield chance is 50%, but 48% is better for steel-manning the argument.

Let's include double attack. Wiki says at 200 skill 50% of swings should trigger a double attack.

60 * 95.5 = 5730 damage from IFS

27 * 150 = 4050 damage from Epic Fist

34 * 72 = 2448 damage from SoS

So you end up with 5730 damage from IFS vs. 6498 damage from Epic + SoS at 100% hit rate.

lol

The damage for Epic + SoS ended up exceeding the damage for IFS more than my original post for a level 52 monk without fistweaving. You laughed a bit too early.

[Snaggles]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3585710&postcount=4

DSM made me feel bad. Luckily this poster gets it!

[bcbrown]

Nice try! That was a good line of attack on my reasoning. But you forgot to take into account double attack. It's possible the 2h weapon got more than average double attacks in my video. You need to look at the pure swing average if you want to remove the variance from the two tests.

If you're now arguing that none of the data in your log is usable because of the potential for variance in a too-small sample size of swings, I 100% agree with you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you're now arguing that none of the data in your log is usable because of the potential for variance in a too-small sample size of swings, I 100% agree with you.

As usual, you didn't read my post and are instead deflecting. You do this when you've lost. Please address my previous post if you think I am wrong, or admit defeat please.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3708095&postcount=167

Unfortunately you are like Troxx in this respect. You just can't admit when you are wrong.

[bcbrown]

You're not treating the 1h DW calculations correctly. You're assuming 100 potential swings per 100 main-hand swings, but Stave of Shielding has 28 delay. 100 swings of epic fist at 16 delay is 160 seconds. 57 swings of SoS takes 159.6 seconds, so you'll have 57 DW chances and 28.5 successes. At 34 average damage that's 969 damage.
2700 + 969 is 3669, vs 3820 for IFS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're not treating the 1h DW calculations correctly. You're assuming 100 potential swings per 100 main-hand swings, but Stave of Shielding has 28 delay. 100 swings of epic fist at 16 delay is 160 seconds. 57 swings of SoS takes 159.6 seconds, so you'll have 57 DW chances and 28.5 successes. At 34 average damage that's 969 damage.
2700 + 969 is 3669, vs 3820 for IFS.

You forgot that the 2700 damage and the 3820 damage is at a 100% hit chance in my previous post. Please read my posts for once.

(2700 * 0.5) + 969 = 2319 damage for Epic Fist + SoS at 50% hit chance vs (3820 * 0.5) = 1910 damage from IFS at 50% hit chance.

[bcbrown]

I'm assuming 100% hit chance for off-hand after a 50% chance to successfully dual wield.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm assuming 100% hit chance for off-hand after a 50% chance to successfully dual wield.

Just reread yourself:


57 swings of SoS takes 159.6 seconds, so you'll have 57 DW chances and 28.5 successes. At 34 average damage that's 969 damage.


You said 57 chances and 28.5 successes. You are indeed assuming a 50% hit rate, which is fine.

In my previous post, I said you get 100 Epic Fist Swings per 40 IFS swings. The average damage of Epic Fist is 27.

27 * 100 = 2700, which is a 100% hit chance when looking at 100 swings. You need to divide 2700 by 2 and 3820 by 2 if you want to use the 969 number, which is the offhand swings at a 50% hit rate.

If you want to use 2700 and 3820, multiply 969 by 2.

You misread my post, plain and simple.

[bcbrown]

57 dual wield chances and 28.5 successes - i.e. actual swings that could hit or miss.

You'll have 57 skill checks against dual wield - once every 2.8 seconds unhasted. 28.5 times dual wield will succeed and you'll actually swing the offhand. At 100% hit rate on swings that's 969 damage.

[Vivitron]

Just reread yourself:



You said 57 chances and 28.5 successes. You are indeed assuming a 50% hit rate, which is fine.

In my previous post, I said you get 100 Epic Fist Swings per 40 IFS swings. The average damage of Epic Fist is 27.

27 * 100 = 2700, which is a 100% hit chance when looking at 100 swings. You need to divide 2700 by 2 and 3820 by 2 if you want to use the 969 number, which is the offhand swings at a 50% hit rate.

If you want to use 2700 and 3820, multiply 969 by 2.

You misread my post, plain and simple.

By successes he wasn't adjusting for hit rate, he was adjusting for offhand swing chance.

I'll put it another way:

40 * 95.5 = 3820 damage from IFS.

27 * 100 = 2700 damage from Epic Fist.

Using the 48% dual wield rate from the video would be 48 swings from SoS.

34 * 48 = 1632 damage from SoS.

You are looking at 3820 damage from IFS vs 4332 damage from Epic + SoS at 100% hit rate. Most likely the dual wield chance is 50%, but 48% is better for steel-manning the argument.

You forgot that the SoS is slower; 28 delay vs 16 for epic fists. So you need to multiply the 1632 * 16/28 = 933; we are looking at 3820 IFS vs 3633 Epic + SoS.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

By successes he wasn't adjusting for hit rate, he was adjusting for offhand swing chance.

I'll put it another way:


You forgot that the SoS is slower; 28 delay vs 16 for epic fists. So you need to multiply the 1632 * 16/28 = 933; we are looking at 3820 IFS vs 3633 Epic + SoS.

57 dual wield chances and 28.5 successes - i.e. actual swings that could hit or miss.

You'll have 57 skill checks against dual wield - once every 2.8 seconds unhasted. 28.5 times dual wield will succeed and you'll actually swing the offhand. At 100% hit rate on swings that's 969 damage.

I think I see the confusion. Monks get a 75% chance to dual wield in terms of skill checks at level 50 if you want to fully break it down like that.

So you have 57 chances and 42 successes with SoS on a Monk. 2700 + 1428 = 4128 at 100% hit rate for Epic Fist + SoS vs 3820 damage from IFS at 100% hit rate.

[bcbrown]

Lmao you finally got the right result from your napkin math! Given your assumptions I agree with your conclusions. Good job! I'm proud of you!

I'm also glad you came around on the idea that a 2-3 minute parse is insufficiently long to draw any conclusions from.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lmao you finally got the right result from your napkin math! Given your assumptions I agree with your conclusions. Good job! I'm proud of you!

I'm also glad you came around on the idea that a 2-3 minute parse is insufficiently long to draw any conclusions from.

The parse was fine.

At the end of the day the IFS damage alone in the parse was 4883 - 564 punch damage = 4319 2h damage.

If you want to equalize the time, 4999 - 30.67 DPS * 8 seconds = 4754 1h damage.

The parse also shows the Epic Fist + SoS out-performing the IFS without fistweaving.

I would love to see you do a longer parse if you think you'll get a different result. You still have yet to provide any data in this thread.

[Vivitron]

I think I see the confusion. Monks get a 75% chance to dual wield in terms of skill checks at level 50 if you want to fully break it down like that.

So you have 57 chances and 42 successes with SoS on a Monk. 2700 + 1428 = 4128 at 100% hit rate for Epic Fist + SoS vs 3820 damage from IFS at 100% hit rate.

I see. I interpreted you're comment about dual wield rate to be breaking it down like that rather than going off total parsed crushes/punches, although you indeed specified the latter the original parse post.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I see. I interpreted you're comment about dual wield rate to be breaking it down like that rather than going off total parsed crushes/punches, although you indeed specified the latter the original parse post.

Yeah it was my bad for not being clear. I was going off of my parse for the 50% dual wield number. I had 209 main hand swings and 101 offhand swings in the parse, which is basically 50%.

When I saw Bcbrown divide 57 by 2 my brain was still thinking about that. You guys were talking about the actual skill check chance for dual wield, which is 75% for Monks at 50.

[Snaggles]

Hey another question, when soloing as a 52 monk (because we have to care about this) would you rather riposte for 25 damage or 250 damage?

Would you rather hit a necromancer npc for 3x the damage from Banshee Aura or just 1/3rd of the damage?

Better get another napkin to spin imaginary scenarios with!

[Snaggles]

Kidding aside, blam sticks and DW for normal players was viable prior to the last 2h patch.
These days for most people without god and dragon loot it’s just an exciting way to do less dps and die to enrage.

Sometimes I break out the rev whip on the ranger to feel alive. I get it. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hey another question, when soloing as a 52 monk (because we have to care about this) would you rather riposte for 25 damage or 250 damage?

Would you rather hit a necromancer npc for 3x the damage from Banshee Aura or just 1/3rd of the damage?

Better get another napkin to spin imaginary scenarios with!

OP will care about their DPS at level 52, as they are only level 16 right now. I am not sure why you keep forgetting.

Ideally you don't fight mobs with DS while soloing anyway. When leveling from 1-52 I never fought any mobs with DS.

People used 1h often before the 2h change, and they were fine with the extra ripostes.

Kidding aside, blam sticks and DW for normal players was viable prior to the last 2h patch.
These days for most people without god and dragon loot it’s just an exciting way to do less dps and die to enrage.

Sometimes I break out the rev whip on the ranger to feel alive. I get it. :)

Epic and SoS is still quite viable while leveling, as I just showed. It out DPSes IFS if you aren't fisweaving at level 52.

I don't know why people keep trying to deny this. It should be a good thing 1h isn't always as bad as people have been assuming.

[Troxx]

Better get another napkin to spin imaginary scenarios with!

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lol

Thanks for admitting defeat. You have no data or counter for your position. Glad to see you learned something new!

[Snaggles]

OP will care about their DPS at level 52, as they are only level 16 right now. I am not sure why you keep forgetting.


Well that was 16 pages ago before we fell down this stupid rabbit hole. Might be like 30 now and wondering what to do.

Epic Fist and SoS is garbage in 2024. Let alone for a level 16 for obvious reasons.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Epic Fist and SoS is garbage in 2024.

Incorrect while leveling. I am not sure why you don't like learning new things, and wish to spread misinformation knowing you are incorrect. Lying to people about the game doesn't help. OP is level 16, and wants to know weapon options while leveling. Stop being a jerk.

[Jimjam]

Ideally you don't fight mobs with DS while soloing anyway. When leveling from 1-52 I never fought any mobs with DS.



Makes the game much smaller though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Makes the game much smaller though.

Agreed, but many people take the fast XP route, which is always a narrow path.

[Jimjam]

Agreed, but many people take the fast XP route, which is always a narrow path.

Big mistake, imo, game ends at 60. Visit the Winners Room for a fee pieces of gear maybe and most importantly reroll :D

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Big mistake, imo, game ends at 60. Visit the Winners Room for a fee pieces of gear maybe and most importantly reroll :D

Honestly I can't think of a lot of areas that are off the beaten path where a Monk could solo and the mobs have DS anyway.

ToFS floor four is one such area, but it was quite annoying overall on my Monk. Mobs have DS cast on them from the shadowmen, and you get diseased by the mummies. It's also harder to get the key from that floor.

Something like Dalnir is full of casters, which makes it more difficult for soloing, especially if you aren't heavily twinked.

Any areas you can think of where you'd want your solo monk to fight DSed mobs? Perhaps if you are twinked with enough resist gear some caster areas are more accessible.

[Eisai]

(off-topic)
Pumice > DS. For water and false wall pulls too.

Does 1h vs 2h have different push/interupt?
Does it alter throwing like it does archery?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

(off-topic)
Pumice > DS. For water and false wall pulls too.

Does 1h vs 2h have different push/interupt?
Does it alter throwing like it does archery?

Pummice does indeed work, but it can be a bit annoying to keep a lot of them in inventory when you are just XPing.

Push to interrupt is no longer a thing. 1h used to be great for pushing mobs to interrupt their spellcasting.

[Troxx]

Thread started in early 2023.
Thread necro bumped.
DSM enters thread. Now thread that was 5 pages long explodes into 20 pages in less than a month.

Why must you always ruin everything?

lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thread started in early 2023.
Thread necro bumped.
DSM enters thread. Now thread that was 5 pages long explodes into 20 pages in less than a month.

Why must you always ruin everything?

lol

Troxx's idea of ruining something is when posters provide real data and teach people things about the game they didn't know.

This is a problem for Troxx, because it hurts his ability to pretend that he knows everything. He can't give his generic answers that make him look smart anymore.

Sadly Troxx is just trashing his reputation further by spamming threads with nonsense. If he wants to look smart, he could provide data to support his claims at any time. I hope he does!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are the worst kind of person. You think you are right 100% of the time. You are never willing to admit you're wrong. You deflect constantly, and you ruin everything you touch. These forums would be roughly 5000% more usable if you didn't exist on them.

People can search the forums and find places where I admitted to being wrong. Such an obvious lie just makes you look delusional and silly.

You could provide data to prove me wrong, but you won't.

Posters like yourself are the problem. You think you are always correct, and you never need to prove it. We simply must take your word that you are telling the truth. You are simply too lazy to actually back up your position with evidence.

As usual, you project your flaws on to other people to avoid improving yourself.

[PatChapp]

Sol a is amazing for monk solo and lots of stuff has a dmg shield,especially if you get into the gnomes

[Snaggles]

Incorrect while leveling. I am not sure why you don't like learning new things, and wish to spread misinformation knowing you are incorrect. Lying to people about the game doesn't help. OP is level 16, and wants to know weapon options while leveling. Stop being a jerk.

1.You can’t get an epic at 16, so no epic fist
2. Speed and cap wise a Jade Mace is justified to 30. Maybe even a trance stick.
3. At 30 anyone who doesnt favor ratio > all is wrong (ie: Most should use a 2h)
4. At 60 at full damage cap, an epic fist is worse than an 11/18 (and even worse 1-59)
5. No, you are a jerk

[DeathsSilkyMist]

1.You can’t get an epic at 16, so no epic fist
2. Speed and cap wise a Jade Mace is justified to 30. Maybe even a trance stick.
3. At 30 anyone who doesnt favor ratio > all is wrong (ie: Most should use a 2h)
4. At 60 at full damage cap, an epic fist is worse than an 11/18 (and even worse 1-59)
5. No, you are a jerk

1. I didn't say use Epic Fist at 16.

2. Yes, Jade Mace is good.

3. Yes, ratio is good.

4. Yes, nobody is saying 9/16 is a better ratio than 11/18. At level 52 Epic Fist + SoS out DPSes IFS without fistweaving, as I showed. Your generalizations are not helping.

5.


Get your good buffs. Parse. Compare fights. Evolve.


You said this on page one. I parsed. You ignore it and continue to give advise that contradicts the results. You don't provide your own data. This is why I called you a jerk. You are just being stubborn, and not taking your own advise. Please do not simply keep repeating something that is shown to be not true, or prove me wrong so we can give the correct advise.

[Snaggles]

Where is your 31dps parse? This is 20 pages now or I’d just flip back a couple pages…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Where is your 31dps parse? This is 20 pages now or I’d just flip back a couple pages…

Yes, the two parses were very close with fist weaving. Epic + SoS clearly won over IFS without fist weaving by 500 damage. The best you can say is they are close with fist weaving at 52. Claiming Epic + SoS is trash when it beats or matches IFS depending on fist weaving is just silly.

Not everybody fist weaves, or do so all the time.

[Snaggles]

Nevermind. I don’t care.

Levels 1-59 are about getting exp. Not dying and being able to kill more stuff per minute is your own reward.

Level 60 is about raid parsing and tweaking gear, where you land on the meter.

You are probably still salty because I said that Adamantite Club and Baton of Royal Stature is a bad combo. It’s true.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nevermind. I don’t care.

Levels 1-59 are about getting exp. Not dying and being able to kill more stuff per minute is your own reward.

Level 60 is about raid parsing and tweaking gear, where you land on the meter.

You are probably still salty because I said that Adamantite Club and Baton of Royal Stature is a bad combo. It’s true.

Take your own advise and parse. Admit when you are wrong if the parse contradicts your previous knowledge.

I am not sure why you think I am salty. At 52 Addy Club + Baton do good DPS, and they are fun to use with the stun procs. Clearly you have no understanding of how they parse at 52 since you were wrong about Epic Fist + SoS. I have IFS too.

[Troxx]

Where is your 31dps parse?…

2-3 minute parse …

#BiglyReliable

[DeathsSilkyMist]

2-3 minute parse …

#BiglyReliable

Where is your "better" parse? You could provide one at any time! Sadly you won't, so your opinion is baseless.

I still don't understand why there is so much resistance. Do people have some secret agenda to prevent people from knowing about 1h weapons? Knowing how weapons parse shouldn't be this controversial lol. If the parse shows a weapon set is better, great!

[Snaggles]

2-3 minute parse …

#BiglyReliable

That’s a back tattoo to start a conversion anywhere there is a pool.

I’ll try to upload some Dain parses. They are long fights with high ac.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That’s a back tattoo to start a conversion anywhere there is a pool.

I’ll try to upload some Dain parses. They are long fights with high ac.

You could provide a parse at anytime! I look forward to it.

[Ripqozko]

You could provide a parse at anytime! I look forward to it.

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 127s, 184k @1449 | Korakaz 14544@(128 in 113s) | Prutter 12134@(97 in 125s) | Cidr 10851@(89 in 121s) | Sheko 10504@(86 in 122s) | Ripqozko 10407@(82 in 126s) | Camoan 10116@(81 in 124s) | Dirtyroger 9989@(79 in 125s) | Jesterka 9091@(80 in 113s) | Sogun 8938@(73 in 122s) | Prekk 8879@(82 in 108s) | Imrahir 7849@(63 in 123s) | Worrio 7820@(62 in 125s) | Sephyr 7415@(69 in 107s) | Zhishen 7404@(60 in 122s) | Hereto 6763@(63 in 107s)

Sogun=typical 1h ranger
Ripqozko= Cek sword 2h


edit: that was this morning.

edit: 2 this was day before

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 146s, 185k @1270 | Korakaz 16729@(117 in 142s) | Deadpull 16168@(115 in 140s) | Amenok 14114@(100 in 141s) | Prekk 12871@(91 in 141s) | Sokay 12736@(90 in 141s) | Larsiny 12685@(90 in 140s) | Ripqozko 11605@(84 in 137s) | Jesterka 11321@(83 in 136s) | Gorgatron 10809@(77 in 140s) | Sogun 8857@(66 in 134s) | Kayak 7811@(57 in 137s) | Divinestrength 7310@(51 in 143s) | Zieros 7206@(55 in 129s) | Blackduck 7132@(50 in 140s) | Francess 7128@(49 in 144s)

Camoan=1h monk and I outdps as a ranger, they get triple attack and I don't. 2h is superior even if you won't ever agree.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 127s, 184k @1449 | Korakaz 14544@(128 in 113s) | Prutter 12134@(97 in 125s) | Cidr 10851@(89 in 121s) | Sheko 10504@(86 in 122s) | Ripqozko 10407@(82 in 126s) | Camoan 10116@(81 in 124s) | Dirtyroger 9989@(79 in 125s) | Jesterka 9091@(80 in 113s) | Sogun 8938@(73 in 122s) | Prekk 8879@(82 in 108s) | Imrahir 7849@(63 in 123s) | Worrio 7820@(62 in 125s) | Sephyr 7415@(69 in 107s) | Zhishen 7404@(60 in 122s) | Hereto 6763@(63 in 107s)

Sogun=typical 1h ranger
Ripqozko= Cek sword 2h


edit: that was this morning.

edit: 2 this was day before

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 146s, 185k @1270 | Korakaz 16729@(117 in 142s) | Deadpull 16168@(115 in 140s) | Amenok 14114@(100 in 141s) | Prekk 12871@(91 in 141s) | Sokay 12736@(90 in 141s) | Larsiny 12685@(90 in 140s) | Ripqozko 11605@(84 in 137s) | Jesterka 11321@(83 in 136s) | Gorgatron 10809@(77 in 140s) | Sogun 8857@(66 in 134s) | Kayak 7811@(57 in 137s) | Divinestrength 7310@(51 in 143s) | Zieros 7206@(55 in 129s) | Blackduck 7132@(50 in 140s) | Francess 7128@(49 in 144s)

Camoan=1h monk and I outdps as a ranger, they get triple attack and I don't. 2h is superior even if you won't ever agree.

Thanks for the parses! Data is always great.

What weapons did Camoan have?

Camoan was 300 damage behind you, and 2 seconds less. The parses are basically equal. The parser just rounded up from 81 to 82 since it is an integer. Claiming you out DPSed them is a bit of a stretch if the implication was anything more than a very small DPS advantage in this parse.

If the goal was to prove 2h is massively better at 60 compared to 1h, this parse doesn't show it.

I am not sure why you think I believe 2h can't be better than 1h. I already said Abashis would out DPS FoN + Gharns previously in this thread. Where do people get these delusional ideas from? I can only assume bias colors how people read what I say.

I am saying 1h is not always worse than 2h. People are exaggurating the differences between 1h and 2h. This is a problem because it is clearly warping people's understanding of different weapon combos, especially while leveling.

[Ripqozko]

Thanks for the parses! Data is always great.

What weapons did Camoan have?

Camoan was 300 damage behind you, and 2 seconds less. The parses are basically equal. The parser just rounded up from 81 to 82 since it is an integer. Claiming you out DPSed them is a bit of a stretch if the implication was anything more than a very small DPS advantage in this parse.

If the goal was to prove 2h is massively better at 60 compared to 1h, this parse doesn't show it.

I am not sure why you think I believe 2h can't be better than 1h. I already said Abashis would out DPS FoN + Gharns previously in this thread. Where do people get these delusional ideas from? I can only assume bias colors how people read what I say.

I am saying 1h is not always worse than 2h. People are exaggurating the differences between 1h and 2h. This is a problem because it is clearly warping people's understanding of different weapon combos, especially while leveling.

he was flavor, sogun was the other ranger in 1h. monks get triple attack rangers dont and i still keep up. i know you never change opinions so take care.

[Troxx]

2h is superior even if you won't ever agree.

His napkin math and short parses on low ac xp mobs on a 52 monk do not agree with you or anyone else know knows the truth to be otherwise.

But going back 10+ pages let us repeat this:

Point is simply that no matter how you slice it, the mantra of fast weapons for the damage bonus was turned on its head. 2handers now deal more damage bonus per unit time than fast weapons.

At 60 a 2handed weapon with a delay of 30 (tstaff) for example will have a chance to apply 29 damage bonus per hit at an interval of 3 seconds (1.5 seconds at max haste).

You would need a 1hander with a starting delay of 11 (before haste) to have greater dmg bonus potential. A delay of 12 isn’t fast enough.

No such weapon exists.

Admittedly the delay of 30 is quite literally THE sweet spot. Let’s use another example.

For a 2handed weapon with a delay of 40 (IFS) … it’s 34 dmg per 4 seconds.

You would need a 1 hander (main hand) with a delay of 13 to have mathematical parity with the dmg bonus potential of the IFS and a delay of 12 to beat it.

No such weapons exist.

This is why dual wielding for monks is so generally lame at this point. There has to be a massive (BiS endgame dual wield setups) ratio advantage to compete (beat) with 38/40 or 29/30 EC monk 2hander. At that point they only win via massive ratio superiority. If you have access to those weapons, you also have access to ToV or VP 2handers (and probably many for cheaper dkp) with ratios that far outclass the EC gear.

The higher the ac, the more relative importance the portion of your damage from damage bonus.

Math is math. It really isn’t complicated.


It used to be that ratio was king (still true) but fast one handers carried the relative advantage of being preferred on high ac mobs where damage bonus (static) favored fast 1handers. A superior 2hand ratio could lose out to an inferior DW setup when more of your hits were going to be on the lower end of the spectrum of possibility.

Now it is literally the opposite. Ratio remains king but dmg bonus favors the 2hander. Which setup has more dmg bonus potential is not up for debate. It is a known fact now. An inferior ratio 2hander can outperform a superior DW setup - it depends on how far apart the ratio gap is. Tier for tier and content for content … 2handers will more or less always win. Endgame 2handers outperform endgame dual wield. Groupable or low raid 2handers outperform comparable tier dual wields. Very high end groupable 2handers for monks (specifically TStaff) are shockingly competitive to raid level dual wield setups.

It really is not rocket surgery.

Math is math

(except for DSM’s napkin math)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

His napkin math and short parses on low ac xp mobs on a 52 monk do not agree with you or anyone else know knows the truth to be otherwise.


Troxx claims 2-3 minutes is too short of a parse for my data. But he will accept Ripqozko's 2-3 minute parse.

This is why nobody takes Troxx seriously. He still hasn't provided any data either.

Everybody knows 2h got a boost with the damage bonus, nor is that being debated.

The exagguration for how much better 2h is in most scenarios is the issue. As a simple example, I showed Epic Fist + SoS beat IFS at level 52 without fistweaving. Troxx has yet to acknowlege this, even though the data is clear. It shouldn't be this controversial to agree with data.

[Ripqozko]

Troxx claims 2-3 minutes is too short of a parse for my data. But he will accept Ripqozko's 2-3 minute parse.

This is why nobody takes Troxx seriously. He still hasn't provided any data either.

Everybody knows 2h got a boost with the damage bonus, nor is that being debated.

The exagguration for how much better 2h is in most scenarios is the issue. As a simple example, I showed Epic Fist + SoS beat IFS at level 52 without fistweaving. Troxx has yet to acknowlege this, even though the data is clear. It shouldn't be this controversial to agree with data.

But it does with sogun vs ripqozko

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But it does with sogun vs ripqozko

That was a 127 second parse though. Are you going to disagree with Troxx a 2-3 mimute parse is too short? We also don't know what weapons Sogun was using.

[Ripqozko]

That was a 127 second parse though. Are you now going back on your claim a 2-3 mimute parse is too short? We also don't know what weapons Sogun was using.

where did i claim it was too short, link me that

[DeathsSilkyMist]

where did i claim it was too short, link me that

Sorry, that was Troxx. Do you disagree with Troxx when he says a 2-3 minute parse is too short? Also, what weapons was Sogun using?

[Ripqozko]

Sorry, that was Troxx. Do you disagree with Troxx when he says a 2-3 minute parse is too short? Also, what weapons was Sogun using?

i think you should hit 60 and parse on different raid targets. like most have and youll notice 2h of equivalent parse better. i have parses of my vindis even beating some monks with a ranger that has no access to triple attack. are you just gonna ignore it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i think you should hit 60 and parse on different raid targets. like most have and youll notice 2h of equivalent parse better. i have parses of my vindis even beating some monks with a ranger that has no access to triple attack. are you just gonna ignore it?

Can you answer my question? Do you think Troxx's claim that 2-3 minute parses are too short is wrong?

Please let us know Sogun's weapon's too. Cek Sword is the best weapon a Ranger can get, so we need to know if you are comparing that against the best 1h weapons a Ranger can get. Everybody knows Abashi's will beat FoN + Gharns. That isn't what is being debated.

[Ripqozko]

Can you answer my question? Do you think Troxx's claim that 2-3 minute parses are too short is wrong?

Please let us know Sogun's weapon's too. Cek Sword is the best weapon a Ranger can get, so we need to know if you are comparing that against the best 1h weapons a Ranger can get. Everybody knows Abashi's will beat FoN + Gharns. That isn't what is being debated.

kflame and baton are best 1h which i have and parses less. i have all of them, like i said you can believe what ya want my parses on actual content show 2h is better. except on like 3 super high ac mobs. for abashi they even win on those.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

kflame and baton are best 1h which i have and parses less. i have all of them, like i said you can believe what ya want my parses on actual content show 2h is better. except on like 3 super high ac mobs. for abashi they even win on those.

Was Sogun using Kflame and Baton? Or was he using a worse weapon setup?

Do you disagree with Troxx's 2-3 minute parse assessment?

Can you show these parses?

[Ripqozko]

Was Sogun using Kflame and Baton? Or was he using a worse weapon setup?

Do you disagree with Troxx's 2-3 minute parse assessment?

Can you show these parses?

im at work, at this point you can believe what ya want, if ya love 1h who am i to stop you.

[Troxx]

Parse set A: very short. Level 52. Xp group content. Provided by an individual who has a long track record of saying very stupid things and taking very non-sensical positions on a wide range of topics. Poster does have an agenda.

Parse set B: also short but 2 parse sets provided showing super similar results. Level 60. Raid gear. Raid target. Ranger 2handed (dmg tables and skill cap disadvantages) without mainhand triple attack beats out raid dual wield monks. Had the monk used a comparable raid 2-hander, would perform better than the Ranger did. Also - from a source that isn’t controversial and fairly bullshit free. No real agenda, just the facts.

Gee. I wonder which carries more weight.

We can all see what happened around page 5/6. Thread became yet another DSM thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

im at work, at this point you can believe what ya want, if ya love 1h who am i to stop you.

Please provide the information when you get home. I see you keep dodging the question about Troxx's assessment about 2-3 minute parses being insufficient, which can be done at work. How strange.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Parse set A: very short. Level 52. Xp group content. Provided by an individual who has a long track record of saying very stupid things and taking very non-sensical positions on a wide range of topics. Poster does have an agenda.

Parse set B: also short but 2 parse sets provided showing super similar results. Level 60. Raid gear. Raid target. Ranger 2handed (dmg tables and skill cap disadvantages) without mainhand triple attack beats out raid dual wield monks. Had the monk used a comparable raid 2-hander, would perform better than the Ranger did. Also - from a source that is t controversial and fairly bullshit free. No real agenda, just the facts.

Gee. I wonder which carries more weight.

I always love seeing how Troxx tries to avoid admitting being wrong. Both of my parses were longer, but mine are "very short". As you can see, Troxx will accept any 2-3 minute parse that agrees with him, and discard any 2-3 minute parse that goes against his position.

Yes we all know you are biased against me. We can look at your signature. A known troll such as yourself has little in the way of credibility.

[Troxx]

For the record, DSM and I do not disagree on everything. Take a look at the paladin shield question in the tank sub-forum. Some things are a matter of opinion. Of those things i actually agree with him more often than not. Other things are more fact based and objective. Many of those things we agree on but some of those things his understanding of basic game mechanics are divorced from reality.

Confront DSMs perception of reality and the thread will explode quickly into a literal storm of shit.

I have a 60 monk with epic and 13/21 SoM. It used to be as good at dps as Tstaff (Tstaff still better for general purpose use. After the 2h patch Tstaff took off like a rocket and I stopped punching things. I later sold Tstaff for 38/40 IFS (funds needed elsewhere) and IFS still wins. IFS performs shockingly well even on raid targets.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For the record, DSM and I do not disagree on everything. Take a look at the paladin shield question in the tank sub-forum. Some things are a matter of opinion. Of those things i actually agree with him more often than not. Other things are more fact based and objective. Many of those things we agree on but some of those things his understanding of basic game mechanics are divorced from reality.

Confront DSMs perception of reality and the thread will explode quickly into a literal storm of shit.

I have a 60 monk with epic and 13/21 SoM. It used to be as good at dps as Tstaff (Tstaff still better for general purpose use. After the 2h patch Tstaff took off like a rocket and I stopped punching things. I later sold Tstaff for 38/40 IFS (funds needed elsewhere) and IFS still wins. IFS performs shockingly well even on raid targets.

I am not sure what perception you think you are confronting. I've said in this thread repeatedly that 2h weapons can out damage 1h weapons.

The only person who goes crazy is yourself when your perceptions are challenged. I showed Epic + SoS beat IFS without fistweaving at 52, and you are simply in denial about it. The storm of shit was from yourseld trying to constantly deny my data for no rational reason.

I am simply disproving the over-generalization about 2h weapons vs 1h weapons. OP is level 16, and does care about how weapons work at lower levels.

[Troxx]

Dude when these things come up and a DSM thread starts it isn’t you vs me.

It is always you vs EVERYONE.

You’re just to proud/stubborn/autistic to see it. In a you vs EVERYONE standpoint … none of here are noobs. Most have been playing this game for (or nearly) a quarter of a century.

Why you always gotta be so weird? It’s exhausting … but also amusing.

[Troxx]

OP is level 16, and does care about how weapons work at lower levels.

OP was level 16 … 20 months ago. He’s either level 60 already or quit playing. I promise you he is not sitting at level 16 reading this thread and attentively taking notes on how best to hit level 17.

Right now the only thing you are doing is arguing with a bunch of EverQuest and forum veterans who know you’re wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

OP was level 16 … 20 months ago. He’s either level 60 already or quit playing. I promise you he is not sitting at level 16 reading this thread and attentively taking notes on how best to hit level 17.

Right now the only thing you are doing is arguing with a bunch of EverQuest and forum veterans who know you’re wrong.

See? More shitstorm when his perception is confronted.

His main argument against my parses was they were too short. But then he accepts a shorter set of parses that agrees with him without question.

Will you agree with me Epic + SoS outdamages IFS without fistweaving at level 52 based on the data?

[Troxx]

The data is insufficient to draw a conclusion. Go get yourself more of it. I will agree that at level 52 the damage will be a lot more similar than at 60 because of:



https://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1

Monk primary dmg bonus at level 52 for 1handers: 9
Monk primary damage bonus at level 60 for 1handers: 11
IFS (40 delay) dmg bonus at level 52: 18
IFS (40 delay) dmg bonus at level 60: 34

Also mainhand triple attack at 60 skews thing further in favor of 2hand. But for 52? The numbers will indeed look more similar compared to 60. As to which absolutely averages more dmg over time? That’s gonna require a whole heck of a lot more parse time … and parse time under identical situations to even out the randomness that is baked into this game.

-same exact buffs
-same exact haste
-same exact mob (not just mob type, but also mob level which is challenging on xp group mobs.

You provided data. The data was not of low quality, there just isn’t enough of it.

Beyond which does the max average dps, the correct and “best” choice will also depend on other factors. Are you solo or tanking or just melee dpsing from behind? Does the mob have a dmg shield?

Ripostes delivered with a 38/40 > ripostes 9/16
Ripostes received with 38/40 <<<< 9/16 plus anything offhand
Dmg shield eaten with 38/40 <<<<<<<<<<< 9/16 plus anything offhand

So yeah, after 30 a monk actually is better off using a 2hander most if not all of the time.

/eyeroll

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The data is insufficient to draw a conclusion.

Ripqozko's parses were shorter than mine. So you admit to being incorrect for using his parses to support your position. Please admit this officially.

You have a 60 monk. Please provide what you consider to be "sufficient", and I will match it!


So yeah, after 30 a monk actually is better off using a 2hander most if not all of the time.


You have zero data to support this position. By your own standard, this is insufficient. This is simply a baseless opinion.

[Troxx]

Ripqozko's parses were shorter than mine.

Rips parses have been given dozens of times over many different fights across many targets over the years. As a Ranger with a Cek sword he is very proud of what he can do with it. He provided 2 here. He has provided many from other targets over the years (have you forgotten?) and the point is always the same. As a Ranger with inferior dmg tables and no mainhand triple attack he consistently outperforms other “better dps” classes using dual wield. He is proud of what he can do with a Ranger with Cek 2hs. All rangers who care about dmg output should prioritize this weapon.

His parses are consistent with my experiences playing my 60 Ranger, 60 Warrior and 60 monk. It’s also consistent with my experiences with a 60 pal before and after the patch.

His parses are consistent with reality. They are full fight parses. You can’t exactly run a longer Vindi parse. It dies when it dies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Rips parses have been given dozens of times over many different fights across many targets over the years. As a Ranger with a Cek sword he is very proud of what he can do with it. He provided 2 here. He has provided many from other targets over the years (have you forgotten?) and the point is always the same. As a Ranger with inferior dmg tables and no mainhand triple attack he consistently outperforms other “better dps” classes using dual wield. He is proud of what he can do with a Ranger with Cek 2hs. All rangers who care about dmg output should prioritize this weapon.

His parses are consistent with my experiences playing my 60 Ranger, 60 Warrior and 60 monk. It’s also consistent with my experiences with a 60 pal before and after the patch.

His parses are consistent with reality. They are full fight parses. You can’t exactly run a longer Vindi parse. It dies when it dies.

Lol you still can't admit you are wrong on such a simple point. If 3 minutes is too short to get an accurrate parse, that is true regardless of the mob.

My parses at 3 minutes were also consistent with reality. I have a video and logs to back it up too.

[Troxx]

For the record my monk hasn’t used epic since shortly after (within a day or 2) of the 2h dmg bonus patch. Only used epic fists after that to push interrupt complete heal mobs (when that was still a thing).

That was years ago and no I’m not going to sift back through years worth of logs to find those old fights. I know what the truth is and I have played that game with you enough times to know that it won’t matter. Your mind is closed and incapable of change once you hunker down. We have threads hundreds of pages and thousands of posts long demonstrating that.

You do you. If you want to believe wrong things, more power to you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For the record my monk hasn’t used epic since shortly after (within a day or 2) of the 2h dmg bonus patch. Only used epic fists after that to push interrupt complete heal mobs (when that was still a thing).

That was years ago and no I’m not going to sift back through years worth of logs to find those old fights. I know what the truth is and I have played that game with you enough times to know that it won’t matter. Your mind is closed and incapable of change once you hunker down. We have threads hundreds of pages and thousands of posts long demonstrating that.

You do you. If you want to believe wrong things, more power to you.

See? When Troxx is asked for data, he just can't be bothered, and doesn't need to provide it. When other people provide data that puts his reality into question, it is always insufficient or wrong.

[Troxx]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=406923

Five thousand, seven hundred and twenty two posts in a single thread of DSM arguing with everyone else. Data given, data ignored. Logic and sound discussion on a near infinite loop, summarily ignored.

This is what happens when you don’t stop replying to a DSM thread.

You do you. If you want to believe wrong things, go for it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx has gone back to spamming threads and trolling. Everybody knows this is what Troxx does after he lost an argument. Thanks for admitting defeat.

The link he posted just shows how big of a troll Troxx is. It doesn't hurt me or help him.

[Eisai]

If you're 'fist weaving' you still eat the same damage shield and riposte as dual wield right?

Also, this post is months old with most of the posts debating the length of parseed data sets? Must be running on a grant to have dragged out the conclusion for this long.

If you really need a controlled environment (cause, science) it might be best to strip down to weapons only to create a baseline unperverted by other factors that can create points of argument?

Stein wielding paladin spamming flash to remove dodge/riposte/etc. Fight stuff that take forever to whittle down but can't kill the pally either?

Remember when the most important aspect of an argument was to be the undeniable winner? All you need here is the data - assuming you actually do want to win.

Or maybe this isn't about monks at all...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Remember when the most important aspect of an argument was to be the undeniable winner? All you need here is the data - assuming you actually do want to win.

Or maybe this isn't about monks at all...

Agreed! The best data wins, and that is what matters. It doesn't matter who is correct.

You are correct posters like Troxx have an ulterior motive. He is famous for spamming threads when people post something he disagrees with. It is quite disruptive. You can see he never provides data to back up his positions.

If you're 'fist weaving' you still eat the same damage shield and riposte as dual wield right?


Yes, you get hit with damage shields and ripostes from fist weaving punches. So I agree with you people would be less likely to do it if they are worried about it in a specific fight.

[Snaggles]

A 2-3 vindi parse is exactly that. Most of us have at least a dozen of those with similar buffs. Add them together it’s some level of consistency.

I’ve been parsing on Vindi for years. My best without avatar using Rip’s 2h is 74dps. My best with a Silver Whip of Rage/Claw is 66. I’ve seen a 70 from a Baton ranger before, never what Rip had done.

If we go parse on blue cons numbers are all over the place, and often way high. Nobody pulls off a freak parse on Vindi unless they are a freak.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A 2-3 vindi parse is exactly that. Most of us have at least a dozen of those with similar buffs. Add them together it’s some level of consistency.

I’ve been parsing on Vindi for years. My best without avatar using Rip’s 2h is 74dps. My best with a Silver Whip of Rage/Claw is 66. I’ve seen a 70 from a Baton ranger before, never what Rip had done.

If we go parse on blue cons numbers are all over the place, and often way high. Nobody pulls off a freak parse on Vindi unless they are a freak.

If a baton ranger is doing 70 DPS without avatar, and a Cek Sword is doing 74 DPS without avatar, the best 1h is pretty close to the best 2h. Certainly not the vast difference people keep implying. You are looking at a 5.5% difference between the two weapons. If you don't have Cek Sword or Shovel of the Harvest, a baton ranger is going to out DPS all other 2h options using your data.

I point this out because someone who does happen to get their 1h raid weapons before their 2h weapons would incorrectly use an inferior 2h weapon if they believed the 2h generalization without parsing.

[Snaggles]

Did I say the Baton ranger was without Avatar? Even if he was, which he wasn’t, that 14dps gap isn’t being closed by Avatar. Maybe 7-8 or so.

Yea I got my claw and my whip before the 2h. With SCHW’s I was hitting high 60’s, I got a 72 or so with a spiked seahorse belt and Shissar. I’m not deleting them but they were bagged until I got my primal.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea I got my claw and my whip before the 2h. With SCHW’s I was hitting high 60’s [DPS?], I got a 72 [DPS?] or so with a spiked seahorse belt and Shissar.


I’ve been parsing on Vindi for years. My best without avatar using Rip’s 2h is 74dps.


So you got 72 DPS from Claw/Whip and 74 DPS from Cek Sword.

That's a 2 DPS difference. I think you need to be more specific about these parses. Do you have 1h and 2h parse data that is using the same haste percentage and buffs?

For reference, I parsed my best 1h and 2h weapons on my SK:

https://youtu.be/P5ouLQOBAoE - Frostwrath

https://youtu.be/Py96jk2NflU - Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge

The difference in DPS between the two weapons was 5 DPS at worst. The ratios are very similar, 1.04 ratio on the 2h vs 1.09 ratio on the 1h.

[Eisai]

They are about the same then but the tank or soloist would riposte harder and receive fewer ripostes using 2h?

Which would be most affordable &/or attainable at the lowest level(30?)?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, if the current code were used for a classic server; would the limited choice of weapons change things?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

They are about the same then but the tank or soloist would riposte harder and receive fewer ripostes using 2h?

Which would be most affordable &/or attainable at the lowest level(30?)?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, if the current code were used for a classic server; would the limited choice of weapons change things?

Ripostes are a factor, and 2h weapons riposte less. If you want to argue for 2h based on how many ripostes you get, that's a fair argument when the 1h and 2h weapon DPSes are close without fistweaving. Someone worried about ripostes would probably avoid fist weaving to minimize how many swings they do.

But a lot of people use DPS as the argument for 2h instead, claiming the 2h weapons are vastly superior DPS wise. I just want people to know the nuance of 1h and 2h weapon DPS, so they can decide which weapons make sense for them.

If someone is prioritizing DPS, they would choose the 1h option if the DPS was better. So we need to make sure people don't simply assume one weapon out DPSes the other based on 1h vs 2h. People need to remember that players used 1h a lot more than 2h before the 2h damage boost, and they were surviving the extra ripostes just fine.

Limited weapon choices does play a factor of course. Different classes have different options at different price points.

Monks are lucky because they can get a Peacebringer for 500pp. I don't think anyone has argued that Monks do not have great options in the 2h category for cheap. But this server is rather top heavy. There are players out there who just want the best DPS weapon, but perhaps haven't played melee class before. It's good for those players to know what options they have, as money isn't as big of a concern.

[Eisai]

I don't wish to argue ��. I am just gathering information. My experience with melee is mostly as a rogue and I'd like to fill the gaps in my knowledge base.

This peace stick looks nice but Kunark what is my best option pre-planes? Can ignore this if it's too off topic �� just seems like a thread full of informed people to query.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't wish to argue ��. I am just gathering information. My experience with melee is mostly as a rogue and I'd like to fill the gaps in my knowledge base.

This peace stick looks nice but Kunark what is my best option pre-planes? Can ignore this if it's too off topic �� just seems like a thread full of informed people to query.

Apologies. When I said "If you want to argue", I was speaking broadly. I wasn't specifically saying you were arguing it. The same goes for the rest of my post. I should have been more clear there.

If you are asking about the best Monk weapons from the Classic Continents excluding planes, that's a good question. I am not as experienced with Classic only P99. I started on P99 when Kunark was out, and I didn't play Green when it was in Classic only.

Just doing a quick search on the Wiki, bare fists are pretty good at level 50. They are 14/30 weapons at that point. The weapons from classic continents while excluding planes have a ratio of like 0.33 at best for Monks, 1h and 2h. Not sure if the pre-kunark filter is excluding a classic weapon with a better ratio.

Someone with more classic only knowledge will probably have a better answer.

[Snaggles]

No, my 13/19 and 14/18 with 41% haste, VoG, Focus and Ranger buffs has maxed at 66. My best 2h is 74.

I don’t know if that is the peak for either but the 2h is consistently better and as people mentioned we don’t have triple attack.

Monks have access to far more quality 1h weapons but still, I expect 2h edges them out until the very best. And if you have an Abashi it’s next-level.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, my 13/19 and 14/18 with 41% haste, VoG, Focus and Ranger buffs has maxed at 66. My best 2h is 74.

I don’t know if that is the peak for either but the 2h is consistently better and as people mentioned we don’t have triple attack.

Monks have access to far more quality 1h weapons but still, I expect 2h edges them out until the very best. And if you have an Abashi it’s next-level.

A baton of flame (13/17) has 10% better delay than the 13/19. Getting 70 DPS with Baton instead of 66 DPS with the 13/19 sounds reasonable. You said you saw a 70 DPS baton Ranger. So the difference between BiS 1h and BiS 2h for a ranger is roughly 4 DPS with your specific setup and data.

My point still stands that a Ranger who gets their 13/17 and 14/18 weapons first will probably out DPS all ranger 2h weapons except for Cek Sword and Shovel of the Harvest. The next best weapon is a Primal 2hb, which is 45/44. The ratio difference between Shovel (1.16) and Primal 2hb (1.02) is 0.14, which is a 13% loss in ratio.

That's good information to know when you are looking for what does the best DPS. 1h doesn't seem as far behind as people claim.

Raiding can be fickle. I remember Aftermath had a monopoly on Lady M for like 12 weeks. I went to every kill. I was looking for a Mithril Helm, and it never dropped after 12 consecutive kills. We did get so many Frostwraths we gave at least one away for free to a random guildie's alt lol. It's certainly possible to get unlucky on a Cek Sword or Shovel for quite a while.

[Ripqozko]

A baton of flame (13/17) has 10% better delay than the 13/19. Getting 70 DPS with Baton instead of 66 DPS with the 13/19 sounds reasonable. You said you saw a 70 DPS baton Ranger. So the difference between BiS 1h and BiS 2h for a ranger is roughly 4 DPS with your specific setup and data.

My point still stands that a Ranger who gets their 13/17 and 14/18 weapons first will probably out DPS all ranger 2h weapons except for Cek Sword and Shovel of the Harvest. The next best weapon is a Primal 2hb, which is 45/44. The ratio difference between Shovel (1.16) and Primal 2hb (1.02) is 0.14, which is a 13% loss in ratio.

That's good information to know when you are looking for what does the best DPS. 1h doesn't seem as far behind as people claim.

Raiding can be fickle. I remember Aftermath had a monopoly on Lady M for like 12 weeks. I went to every kill. I was looking for a Mithril Helm, and it never dropped after 12 consecutive kills. We did get so many Frostwraths we gave at least one away for free to a random guildie's alt lol. It's certainly possible to get unlucky on a Cek Sword or Shovel for quite a while.

If you can get baton you can get cek, both are trips. I don't mind ya like 1h, but 2h parses better I've linked mine a lot over the years here.

Edit: I don't remember ya doing anything in aftermath and I was an officer.

[Troxx]

My point still stands that a Ranger who gets their 13/17 and 14/18 weapons first will probably out DPS all ranger 2h weapons except for Cek Sword and Shovel of the Harvest.

Yeah those are the only ranger usable 2handers in the game at that tier of quality.

Primals? Stellar for the proc and decent if you don't have better to swap to after the proc but they are not at all in the same ratio category.

I'm glad that you agree that tier for tier 2h weapons will out-dps dual wield. We are finally making progress.

The next best weapon is a Primal 2hb, which is 45/44. The ratio difference between Shovel (1.16) and Primal 2hb (1.02) is 0.14, which is a 13% loss in ratio.

And the difference between a primal velium 1hander 13/20 (0.65) compared to Baton of Flame 13/17 (0.76) is a 17.5% along with a 17% reduction in damage bonus (static for 1-handers - this phenomenon is not seen as much with any 2hander as it is delay dependent) dealt.

If you're gonna make comparisons, compare apples to apples. Primal to primal ... engdamge ratio to endgame ratio.

It just so happens that Rangers only have 2 weapons on their list:
-Harvest
-Cek sword

Monks get 4 options:
-Abashi
-VP
-Harvest
-Facesmasher

Warriors get 7 options
-4x 2hs out of ToV with higher tier ratio
-3x 2hb out of ToV with higher tier ratios

Knights get the most (8 options)
-3x 2hbs
-3x 2hs
-2x 2hp