Agro with the new patch

[CancerMage]

im assuming the staff knew this was coming. But ya. what ?

[Drayzin]

no joke

[WokeCat]

I noticed that I wasn't getting aggro anymore on my Shaman, like I can just instantly slow and dot and sit down while my pet tanks. Before I would have to root, which doesn't sound like a big deal, and it wasn't, but Venom of the Snake always broke root so I would be face tanking for a second. Now it's just free-cast and sit down, lmao.

[Trexller]

you also think that halflings are gnomes

[Reiwa]

Get TAKP'd my good bitch

[magnetaress]

Was hoping they fixed mage pet agro transfer.

[CancerMage]

naw, agro is fucked across multiple different levels. not even worth going into detail. everything changed and everything is broken.

i don't know if this is supposed to be a beta or what and then they work back whats broken. but the amount of broken is just insane.

Noone is saying anything because it MOST cases its working in everyones favor to abuse it.

[long.liam]

naw, agro is fucked across multiple different levels. not even worth going into detail. everything changed and everything is broken.

i don't know if this is supposed to be a beta or what and then they work back whats broken. but the amount of broken is just insane.

Noone is saying anything because it MOST cases its working in everyones favor to abuse it.

Suck it up. If you really think there's a real problem, post a fully detailed report in the Bug forum. Otherwise, hush up and enjoy the free game you get to play.

[QuestMaster3000]

Seriously, if everyone would just hush up about Everquest this could be a top tier miscellaneous forum.

[Danth]

im assuming the staff knew this was coming. But ya. what ?

Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes something works one way on a developmental server then gets all fubar'd when pushed to the production server.

My main character on P99 is a 60 SK (Andoric) so if someone wants to do some trials I can try to be on to assist if desired.

[Allishia]

For war team!

So far only combo that holds agro safely is Red Blade + Nev horn...even epic 2hander is too slow and if no procs it sucks. All other procs seem crappy, I've proced trident x2 and it went right to melee like I didn't even proc..

Even the nev horn proc doesn't seem to help, but the swing agro is good enough to sustain to cover till red blade procs.

I think maybe its a bug that other weps dont agro at all..hoping they fix it. Tried many vp weps, feverblade is pretty much zero agro now lol.

Shaman/enc slow is crazy agro too. I only call my proc message on red blade procs, since its only one that seems to matter now.

[Ooloo]

Wait, shaman slow *is* crazy aggro, meaning it generates a lot of aggro? Cause some other dude earlier in the thread was saying slow now generates almost no aggro.

SKs\Pals have been complaining their snap aggro spells don't work now, which should be good for warriors, but warriors depend on procs and clickies. So if those are effed too, basically all tanks now suck.

What is going on?

[Chortles Snortles]

guys i can’t auto attack and watch kids chinese cartoons anymore help
(lol)

[Reiwa]

Wait, shaman slow *is* crazy aggro, meaning it generates a lot of aggro? Cause some other dude earlier in the thread was saying slow now generates almost no aggro.

SKs\Pals have been complaining their snap aggro spells don't work now, which should be good for warriors, but warriors depend on procs and clickies. So if those are effed too, basically all tanks now suck.

What is going on?

Classic is what's going on.

[Ooloo]

Yeah I know but one post is saying shaman slow, which has historically always been huge aggro on p99, is now *not* doing much aggro at all. Then Allishya said "sham/enc slow is crazy aggro too".

I do think aggro mechanics were kind of silly before, warriors shouldn't have to just depend on mindless clickies for insta aggro, but this seems like maybe a bit of an overcorrection?

[Karanis]

Can confirm that slow/blind aggro on a 60 shaman is super weak/low now, before, a big slow on a low level mob that was already aggroed onto me would glue them to me until they died to a lowbie's melee hits, now, I can dump multiple slows onto a mob and they'll pull off me with low white hits in a handful of rounds.

[Allishia]

Wait, shaman slow *is* crazy aggro, meaning it generates a lot of aggro? Cause some other dude earlier in the thread was saying slow now generates almost no aggro.

SKs\Pals have been complaining their snap aggro spells don't work now, which should be good for warriors, but warriors depend on procs and clickies. So if those are effed too, basically all tanks now suck.

What is going on?

Let me rephrase.

IF red blade doesn't proc, slow can pull agro, if it procs, slow doesn't gank the agro. I'm talkin early into fight too.

But other wep procs, like trident / fevergblade, procs dont help, so have to wait for swing agro to build.

[Reiwa]

Can confirm that slow/blind aggro on a 60 shaman is super weak/low now, before, a big slow on a low level mob that was already aggroed onto me would glue them to me until they died to a lowbie's melee hits, now, I can dump multiple slows onto a mob and they'll pull off me with low white hits in a handful of rounds.

Range?

[Ooloo]

Okay, so I guess for a war it ultimately isn't a huge difference between "melee wait for procs" and "melee wait for swings" then.

Definitely seems like a bit of an overcorrection with this patch. Like slow is extremely powerful once it lands, so it makes sense for a mob to get very pissed at the slower. Maybe it was too much before, but it definitely should still be up there.

Uthgaard dug up some relevant in-era dev quotes about aggro that seem to cut against these changes, waiting to see if anything comes of that.

[drfuzz]

This sounds like that dark time back 20 years ago on Live servers when the shamans got tired of dying on raids every time they slowed a boss raid mob, and so the devs massively reduced disease based aggro. Suddenly all us SKs didn’t have our snap aggro anymore. That’s why they gave us the crappy aggro spells.

[Ooloo]

This sounds like that dark time back 20 years ago on Live servers when the shamans got tired of dying on raids every time they slowed a boss raid mob, and so the devs massively reduced disease based aggro. Suddenly all us SKs didn’t have our snap aggro anymore. That’s why they gave us the crappy aggro spells.

Sham slow isn't disease based though, it's just magic

[Karanis]

Range?

You asking about level range or distance? My shaman is 60, the mobs were ranging from 10-20, the players killing the mobs were 10-15 or so. Distance-wise, I was body-pulling the mobs before slowing so any pre-aggro aggro-cap shenanigans weren't at play, slowing multiple times while the mobs were basically on top of me, and then the low level players would pull them off me in under 10 seconds.

[Karanis]

I guess I shouldn't be complaining as a shaman main, pretty broken that all my spells generate next to no aggro now, just makes me sad that paladins and SKs don't have snap aggro anymore, like at all.

[Reiwa]

You asking about level range or distance? My shaman is 60, the mobs were ranging from 10-20, the players killing the mobs were 10-15 or so. Distance-wise, I was body-pulling the mobs before slowing so any pre-aggro aggro-cap shenanigans weren't at play, slowing multiple times while the mobs were basically on top of me, and then the low level players would pull them off me in under 10 seconds.

Missing the body agro code then. Ok.

[Reiwa]

Sham slow isn't disease based though, it's just magic

20 years would have been 2002 so Plague of Insects/Cloud of Grummus

[Ghost of Starman]

I guess I shouldn't be complaining as a shaman main, pretty broken that all my spells generate next to no aggro now, just makes me sad that paladins and SKs don't have snap aggro anymore, like at all.

At least Pals have Root.

[Ooloo]

20 years would have been 2002 so Plague of Insects/Cloud of Grummus

2002?? Blasphemer.

[Reiwa]

2002?? Blasphemer.

The change(s) is from a server from that era by my estimation.

Still think it's right.

[Reiwa]

Live is almost completely useless for this stuff.

[unsunghero]

Nerf enchanters?

[Reiwa]

Nerf enchanters?

I remember enchanters being afraid to slow on raids if they were on tash duty.

[unsunghero]

I remember enchanters being afraid to slow on raids if they were on tash duty.

I don’t raid but slow has a decent amount of hate

I still haven’t logged in since the patch (what a waste, I know…) but if I slowed a mob charmed pet was tanking even with pet taunt on it would gank aggro. Tash had a good amount too pre-patch

[Reiwa]

It may be that slows and associated debuffs were a lot more threat than they have been on most eqemu servers

[Jimjam]

Yeah I know but one post is saying shaman slow, which has historically always been huge aggro on p99, is now *not* doing much aggro at all. Then Allishya said "sham/enc slow is crazy aggro too".

Shamans saying their aggro has been lowered suggests an aggro cap has been put on their spells.

Warriors saying shaman aggro is crazy high suggests warriors have received an even more severe cap on their procs than shaman spells.

Isn’t this exactly what the patch notes claims to have happened?

[magnetaress]

I remember agro being harder in classic for melees and fast weapons almost pretty much being #1 where as procs where toats hit or miss.

[magnetaress]

So patch is probably more authentic and in era.

Use guys is just used to training wheelz.

[magnetaress]

Even really crappy fast weapons like jojos and thulian claws cuz 19 dly was better for agro than basically everything. Outside of like a few special cases.


Like it was a tifecta of speed > dmg > procs (with few outliers except in special cases).

Iirc.

[Jimjam]

Even really crappy fast weapons like jojos and thulian claws cuz 19 dly was better for agro than basically everything. Outside of like a few special cases.


Like it was a tifecta of speed > dmg > procs (with few outliers except in special cases).

Iirc.

On live the aggro of non-damaging elements of a proc (ac debuffs, stuns, etc) scaled with the hp of the target. That doesn’t seem to happen here - stun seems to be hundreds of aggro regardless of whether the target has 18 or 32000 hp.

[long.liam]

On live the aggro of non-damaging elements of a proc (ac debuffs, stuns, etc) scaled with the hp of the target. That doesn’t seem to happen here - stun seems to be hundreds of aggro regardless of whether the target has 18 or 32000 hp.

That was true before the current patch. Now the hate does seem to scale with mob hp. Tested it with multiple toons in multiple zones to verify.

[Jimjam]

That was true before the current patch. Now the hate does seem to scale with mob hp. Tested it with multiple toons in multiple zones to verify.

Amazing news if true.

[mycoolrausch]

tash for years was more hate than malo + slow combined. more hate than a wizard chaining bane. more hate than all of rnf. just nutty. nobody seemed to find that odd

[Arvan]

Without someone performing a reasonably sound controlled test im just seeing a bunch of subjective guessing

[magnetaress]

I know first hand experience is evidence.

Jimjam does too )

[WokeCat]

On live the aggro of non-damaging elements of a proc (ac debuffs, stuns, etc) scaled with the hp of the target. That doesn’t seem to happen here - stun seems to be hundreds of aggro regardless of whether the target has 18 or 32000 hp.

I don’t seem to remember Paladins using stun to hold aggro 20+ years ago, but I could be wrong

I remember everyone saying Shadow Knight was the worst class in the game aside from the fact that they could cast disease cloud and instantly grab and hold aggro

Don’t seem to remember paladins having the same super aggro capabilities as SK, not even close

On p99 disease cloud feels super subpar when compared to clinging darkness, which I remember from first hand experience not being the case lol

[magnetaress]

I agree with that.

Pally stun also wasn't terrible. Two casts plus a blind.

I used it on live because it had the added benefits of mitigation and interruption.

[magnetaress]

I agree with that.

Pally stun also wasn't terrible. Two casts plus a blind.

I used it on live because it had the added benefits of mitigation and interruption.

And it was enough for my 50 cleric to easily tank 40s mobs for groups if using all of them.

[magnetaress]

Stun was more to make the mob stop attacking long enough to root or taunt or w/e. Especially in the case of enchanters derping and usually the non dmg stuns. And it wasn't exactly trivial agro.

[magnetaress]

And it was enough for my 50 cleric to easily tank 40s mobs for groups if using all of them.

BTW that was a gnome cleric :)

[Toxigen]

shits classic

[magnetaress]

The 8 or 6? second stun cap in the pvp code applying to pve as well is also an issue i would like to bring up. :D:eek:

[Jimjam]

Without someone performing a reasonably sound controlled test im just seeing a bunch of subjective guessing

Sec, just authoring peer review study to be published on eqemu leading journal(!)

[Jimjam]

The 8 or 6? second stun cap in the pvp code applying to pve as well is also an issue i would like to bring up. :D:eek:

Makes wizards cry. I thought it was intended as a nerf to op whirlstuns, tho? (Other stuns being hit were collateral).

[zelld52]

Don't know about bard PL - but this ruined Druid PL.

Lowbie auto attack for 11 dmg will pull aggro from an Ensnare now.

Prob the same for bards swarm kiting with PBAE casters - no way the bard is gonna keep aggro on 25 mobs with low aggro songs.

[magnetaress]

Tbh I trust Jimjam more than anyone on EQ topics.

Even tho I have disagreement about agi and AC and what constitutes a "shield" with thems.

[magnetaress]

Tbh I trust Jimjam more than anyone on EQ topics.

Even tho I have disagreement about agi and AC and what constitutes a "shield" with thems.

By more than anyone I mean more than even myself too. Despite disagreement.

[zelld52]

RIP just about all tanks.

Stun, Disease Cloud, Flash of Light, Shadow Vortex --- None of these can keep aggro from a rogue. None seem to be able to peel from an over-eager wizard either.

Groups in city of mist with rogues were havin a bad time this weekend. Root is the only way to keep the mob on the tank now

[magnetaress]

Rogues used to have to wait to engage and stop dpsing.

Get classic.

[zelld52]

Rogues used to have to wait to engage and stop dpsing.

Get classic.

Oh i remember. Mained a rogue on live. Used to have to wait until 90-92% HP on a raid and spam evade.

Imagine 3 years into a server having to get good at your class. Must suck for the rogues out there. Kinda like when they nerfed sneak pulling

[Ghost of Starman]

Bad connections are also classic, P99 isn't truly classic until there is programmed super lag spike and very high ping. Mobs / players not teleporting around isn't classic.

[Allishia]

I had zero agrro issues with red blade + nev horn. But any other combo it pings too much.

Tried low delay weps krezien flame + horn, it's just isn't enough without the red blade proc. Krezien flame offhand wasn't enough to sustain agro without procs at all. Jaleen katana was even worse..

Need the proc from red blade or eventually dps will out agro your swing agro.

[CancerMage]

in terms of nerfing stable questing, a big problem on blue. its a huge deal. and great.

in terms of breaking other mechanics while doing the above, it did.

[Detoxx]

tash for years was more hate than malo + slow combined. more hate than a wizard chaining bane. more hate than all of rnf. just nutty. nobody seemed to find that odd

Tash was 1350, Bane is 2000. This statement is incorrect

[magnetaress]

ya but what is the cast times on tash vs bain

we talking agro per second here

[Encroaching Death]

guys i can’t auto attack and watch kids chinese cartoons anymore help
(lol)

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/021/665/DpQ9YJl.png

[Vaarsuvius]

Something's wrong in the state of Aggro

I was in Droga earlier with my 59 SK.
pulled a goblin from a distance with Clinging Darkness.
Goblin landed a spell on me, so my pet (not even a max lvl one, just a 45 hitter) beelined toward the mob.

I can't remember if Strengthen Death was on but whatever, I could not get aggro with Shroud of Pain, Shadow Vortex & Disease Cloud...

/auc WTB aggro tools & spells

[Vaarsuvius]

Shroud of Hate, DC & SV sorry for the typo.

[Ripqozko]

Something's wrong in the state of Aggro

I was in Droga earlier with my 59 SK.
pulled a goblin from a distance with Clinging Darkness.
Goblin landed a spell on me, so my pet (not even a max lvl one, just a 45 hitter) beelined toward the mob.

I can't remember if Strengthen Death was on but whatever, I could not get aggro with Shroud of Pain, Shadow Vortex & Disease Cloud...

/auc WTB aggro tools & spells

yea SK are pretty rough atm, snare seems to work better then others, seems like atm snare/vortex spam can work sorta kinda. cloud does nothing.

[cd288]

Something's wrong in the state of Aggro

I was in Droga earlier with my 59 SK.
pulled a goblin from a distance with Clinging Darkness.
Goblin landed a spell on me, so my pet (not even a max lvl one, just a 45 hitter) beelined toward the mob.

I can't remember if Strengthen Death was on but whatever, I could not get aggro with Shroud of Pain, Shadow Vortex & Disease Cloud...

/auc WTB aggro tools & spells

This is odd because as far as I recall mobs are always supposed to attack a player over a pet if the player in in range aren’t they? If that’s not longer the case enchanters in a group can be even more OP now because their charmed mob can tank while melee players dps

[magnetaress]

Only works for sks. Lol.

[Vaarsuvius]

This is odd because as far as I recall mobs are always supposed to attack a player over a pet if the player in in range aren’t they? If that’s not longer the case enchanters in a group can be even more OP now because their charmed mob can tank while melee players dps

I was not in range. My pet intercepted the mob that I'd just snared and was coming for me.
But a single DC of SV was enough to get aggro back before that patch.

Our aggro generation seems to be really low now.

A couple days ago, a Torp shaman guildee & I went to KC to camp Verix. Every time he would land slow on a mob I would need (SV + SoH + SV) x3 to get aggro back. This is just ridiculous.

[Encroaching Death]

https://i.imgflip.com/75sham.jpg

[7thGate]

I had zero agrro issues with red blade + nev horn. But any other combo it pings too much.

Tried low delay weps krezien flame + horn, it's just isn't enough without the red blade proc. Krezien flame offhand wasn't enough to sustain agro without procs at all. Jaleen katana was even worse..

Need the proc from red blade or eventually dps will out agro your swing agro.

I think this in part is dependent on what your DPS is swinging too; you have to tank for some very high damage/low delay DPS setups.

Its interesting, because if there's an aggro limiter on Rogue engage, it probably shifts the optimal weapon setup. I have an Axe of Resistance on my offhand. If the offhand is still adding the damage bonus to aggro per swing, then Claw of Lightning compared to Axe of Resistance would be generating (25/18)/(26/24) = 1.27x the Aggro from offhand swings, while doing (14/18)/(15/24) = 1.24x the damage. If the Rogue is aggro limited in how they can engage and requires a backoff, the Axe is actually higher total damage because it has a higher damage per unit aggro ratio; the Rogue can engage earlier and back off less than one using Claw to exceed the same total damage, in theory.

Using Epic probably becomes optimal in an aggro limited situation because +ATK adds to damage without adding to aggro generation, which I suspect will cause it to outperform basically anything from a damage per unit aggro metric.

I'm using Ragebringer+Axe and have had no aggro issues since the patch. I'm on that weapon setup because I haven't had a chance to get anything with better ratios, since the highest end stuff is fairly uncommon for Sanctum to get. Now I'm not sure I even want to try saving for bids on higher end weapons instead of just engaging a little earlier and saving DKP for other gear. Axe of Resistance is already one of the highest damage per unit aggro generated weapons, I think only eclipsed by Razor Sharp Shortsword in the 0.6+ ratio weapons. And its BIS for resists.

[CancerMage]

This is odd because as far as I recall mobs are always supposed to attack a player over a pet if the player in in range aren’t they? If that’s not longer the case enchanters in a group can be even more OP now because their charmed mob can tank while melee players dps

didn't work this way even before the agro switch, you could jig it so pet took damage.

[Jimjam]

Tbh I trust Jimjam more than anyone on EQ topics.

Even tho I have disagreement about agi and AC and what constitutes a "shield" with thems.

Leatherfoot Raiders are NOT shields, we are mighty warriors!

[Allishia]

I think this in part is dependent on what your DPS is swinging too; you have to tank for some very high damage/low delay DPS setups.

Its interesting, because if there's an aggro limiter on Rogue engage, it probably shifts the optimal weapon setup. I have an Axe of Resistance on my offhand. If the offhand is still adding the damage bonus to aggro per swing, then Claw of Lightning compared to Axe of Resistance would be generating (25/18)/(26/24) = 1.27x the Aggro from offhand swings, while doing (14/18)/(15/24) = 1.24x the damage. If the Rogue is aggro limited in how they can engage and requires a backoff, the Axe is actually higher total damage because it has a higher damage per unit aggro ratio; the Rogue can engage earlier and back off less than one using Claw to exceed the same total damage, in theory.

Using Epic probably becomes optimal in an aggro limited situation because +ATK adds to damage without adding to aggro generation, which I suspect will cause it to outperform basically anything from a damage per unit aggro metric.

I'm using Ragebringer+Axe and have had no aggro issues since the patch. I'm on that weapon setup because I haven't had a chance to get anything with better ratios, since the highest end stuff is fairly uncommon for Sanctum to get. Now I'm not sure I even want to try saving for bids on higher end weapons instead of just engaging a little earlier and saving DKP for other gear. Axe of Resistance is already one of the highest damage per unit aggro generated weapons, I think only eclipsed by Razor Sharp Shortsword in the 0.6+ ratio weapons. And its BIS for resists.

Yes definitely depends on the dps. Most of our rogues/monks are near bis and also a little slow and think they can attack the mob before the war even positions it lol :p

[Danth]

Yes definitely depends on the dps. Most of our rogues/monks are near bis and also a little slow and think they can attack the mob before the war even positions it lol :p

Do your melee at least blur what aggro they can with feign death / evade? At the lower-middle tier I hang out in it's somewhat rare to see rogues or monks even try to manage their own aggro. Quite often they balk if asked.

I'll see if I can convince the wife to log on later and I'll do some trials of proportionate spellthreat values. Supposedly the P99 admins have already said somewhere that current values are not intended and will be revised, but we still want some idea of what's what because we have to live with it for some unknown length of time 'till the next update.

Danth

[Chortles Snortles]

noticing mobs aggroing through walls proximity even if LOS

[Encroaching Death]

noticing mobs aggroing through walls proximity even if LOS

In Kaesora?

[Danth]

I will add in similar observations as others have noted,. after duo'ing for awhile with the wife (60 SK/60 SHM).

--Disease Cloud is extremely low aggro, roughly 1/4 the aggro of most other spells.

--The majority of other spells all add about the same aggro, if not the same, very close to it. This includes various snares and debuffs a Shadow Knight has access to as well as the various spells the wife's Shaman was using (malo, slow, damage over time spells, etc). We could flip aggro around pretty much cast-per-cast regardless of what we were using, other than the aforementioned low-aggro Disease Cloud.

--Spell aggro in general feels distinctly weak. I *could* out-aggro my shadow knight pet from a distance, using snares or AC debuffs, but it often required multiple casts if the pet had been in melee for more than a few seconds. Likewise, the SK's auto-attack was sufficient to turn a mob off the shaman pretty quickly, within a few rounds, after something like a slow. While I had no other melee types to test against, I feel I would struggle or be unable to keep aggro off higher-damage melee types based on this experience.

I was told the devs said something to the effect that they're aware of irregularities with hate generation. Where was this posted?

Danth

[Allishia]

Do your melee at least blur what aggro they can with feign death / evade? At the lower-middle tier I hang out in it's somewhat rare to see rogues or monks even try to manage their own aggro. Quite often they balk if asked.

I'll see if I can convince the wife to log on later and I'll do some trials of proportionate spellthreat values. Supposedly the P99 admins have already said somewhere that current values are not intended and will be revised, but we still want some idea of what's what because we have to live with it for some unknown length of time 'till the next update.

Danth

They are starting to learn. I have to keep yelling at them though :p

[Patrece]

Game's way easier now

[long.liam]

I personally tested it with my brother and we found that the Hate generated for the SPAs scales with HP. I believe it's roughly MOB HP/15 up to a CAP of 1200 for Spells and 400 for procs per element. Stuns have the 1200 or 400 capped plus any dmg done. Flash of Light has two SPAs, AC debuff, plus blind which should be 2400 hate on a 18,000+ HP Mob. Need to do more testing when I have time. Wess was generating about 1200 Hate on the high HP mob. Lines up with my theory because the Blinding Poison III has 3 effects, Blind, AC Debuff, and 4 Poison counters.