Is EverQuest one of the only MMOs where race mattered?

[WokeCat]

I always think it's interesting when I'm playing more modern MMOs and see people ask what race they should be for certain classes. And the answer is almost always "it doesn't matter what race you play, just pick whatever race you like the best."

But in EverQuest the experience you would have from playing an Erudite Paladin versus a Dwarf Paladin was massive. Not just stats wise, and night vision wise, but the areas of the game felt completely different. Almost like you were playing a completely different version of the game.

I can't think of any other MMO since EverQuest where your race REALLY made a huge difference, yet we still see this question asked all of the time and I can't help but wonder if the people who ask that question even know where it originated, or why they're still asking it 20+ years later even though it's never really been a factor in any other MMO that I've played.

[Encroaching Death]

I believe in South Park: Stick of Truth, the game would become much more difficult if you made your character black. (Erudite)

[unsunghero]

In WoW undead’s will of the forsaken was OP compared to most other racials and made them the min/max race for competitive arenas

That long with orc’s hardiness racial was the reason alliance claimed horde came to dominate pvp on the pvp servers but really we all know it was because we were better players

But IMO race mattered more in EQ

[magnetaress]

Y is horde better?

[Toxigen]

WoW for sure.

Vanilla there was a ton of broken stuff. Dwarf priest fear ward, undead fear break, +sword skill for human, orc stun resist, etc.

Later on in Cata you had hardcore PvE guilds switching to Horde because of Goblin's rocket jump. Shit was broken for avoiding raid mechanics.

[unsunghero]

Y is horde better?

On the original release of the game horde were actually the less populous faction on many servers including mine, which had a 1.5ish-1 ratio of A:H

This meant we were usually outnumbered in most world pvp fights while leveling up. So when BG’s came out which forced even numbers horde were more used to needing to CC during pvp to stay alive, etc

IMO

[Toxigen]

Night elf hunter in vanilla was sick too. You could charge aimed shot while shadowmelded in pvp.

[unsunghero]

Oh yea in terms of race mattering in classic WoW (not vanilla but the more recent release of classic), not necessarily your race but your faction choice was game breaking

This was because some servers had like 80/20 faction ratio’s where when the honor system came out all you could do was chain die and get farmed as soon as you stepped outside your city or stepped off flight transports

It made the game basically unplayable and forced people to server xfer, which people did to the more populated faction on a different server also making ratio’s worse. Turns out most humans will always pick the path of least resistance in life

In fact it completely broke the game to where the devs had to allow the same faction to be able to fight itself in BG’s because differences in population made the queues be hours long for horde. And now with this most recent expansion I hear horde and ally are no longer enemies, essentially ruining the concept of WARcraft

All because humans kept being weak and lazy and wanting to be on the winning, more populated side

[Toxigen]

yeah id didnt play classic b/c i already destroyed that game when it came out

[WokeCat]

WoW for sure.

Vanilla there was a ton of broken stuff. Dwarf priest fear ward, undead fear break, +sword skill for human, orc stun resist, etc.

Later on in Cata you had hardcore PvE guilds switching to Horde because of Goblin's rocket jump. Shit was broken for avoiding raid mechanics.
You aren't wrong by any means, but when WoW classic came out, I rolled a Human Priest and it felt fine. I feel like in EQ the difference between an Ogre Warrior and a Gnome Warrior was much more massive? In my experience as a Human Priest I never felt significantly gimped because of my race.

[WokeCat]

In WoW undead’s will of the forsaken was OP compared to most other racials and made them the min/max race for competitive arenas

That long with orc’s hardiness racial was the reason alliance claimed horde came to dominate pvp on the pvp servers but really we all know it was because we were better players

But IMO race mattered more in EQ

TBH wasn't the human racial more OP than the Undead one because it did the same thing, but for every form of CC, which allowed humans to use better trinkets? I think Human Rogues were considered good too because of the +sword skill or whatever? But it didn't feel game-breaking or anything. At least not to me.

[WokeCat]

Y is horde better?

I been meaning to ask you if Dragonflight is "worth" it? It looked so dumb to me the second it was announced, and I just felt like Blizzard was doubling down on everything I hated about Shadowlands. The advanced profession stuff seems neat, but it's probably designed so players are forced to buy more WoW tokens.

I don't trust Blizzard to make a good game in 2022 NGL :(

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/JBTyELk.jpg

[WokeCat]

yeah id didnt play classic b/c i already destroyed that game when it came out

I wasn't as excited about it as a lot of people were. I played a Rogue and several other classes back in the day, and I knew all those highlight reels you saw on YouTube weren't a realistic experience that you would have by playing the class in PVP in 2022. People know how to use trinkets now, and without Cloak of Shadows, basically the second a Rogue leaves Stealth he just dies (in BGs, not talking about duels). I remembered it being a really unfun experience in general.

[Encroaching Death]

In WoW undead’s will of the forsaken was OP compared to most other racials and made them the min/max race for competitive arenas

That long with orc’s hardiness racial was the reason alliance claimed horde came to dominate pvp on the pvp servers but really we all know it was because we were better players

But IMO race mattered more in EQ

WoW even did it somewhat with classes too.

Priests got a different spell, depending on what race you chose.

Back in the day, if you were planning on going Shadow, it was better to be Undead because you actually got an addition DoT.

That's crazy. That's like Necro here though, you better choose Iksar or else.

[Encroaching Death]

Y is horde better?

Horde = Death Metal

Alliance = KPop

:cool:

[WokeCat]

Horde = Death Metal

Alliance = KPop

:cool:

Alliance players are dicks too. I started as Horde and I thought because they were the evil race that when I swapped to Alliance that the players would be nicer. Ended up getting ninja looted off of like 3 times my first month playing on Sargeras Alliance. I had never had that happen before

[Encroaching Death]

Alliance players are dicks too. I started as Horde and I thought because they were the evil race that when I swapped to Alliance that the players would be nicer. Ended up getting ninja looted off of like 3 times my first month playing on Sargeras Alliance. I had never had that happen before

If there's a game where I can play as an Orc.

I'm playing an Orc.

Except for Warhammer 40k. Dunno why.

But Orcs are awesome.

[unsunghero]

TBH wasn't the human racial more OP than the Undead one because it did the same thing, but for every form of CC, which allowed humans to use better trinkets? I think Human Rogues were considered good too because of the +sword skill or whatever? But it didn't feel game-breaking or anything. At least not to me.

I don’t think humans got every man for himself racial until later, like wotlk, it worked on stuns if I recall

I think in classic they had perception only, which did give them a huge advantage vs other rogues in arenas, basically always ensuring the human got the opener

[Toxigen]

Humans +5 to sword skill made them by default the best melee dps in the game for all classes whose BiS was a sword (all).

[Jimjam]

If there's a game where I can play as an Orc.

I'm playing an Orc.

Except for Warhammer 40k. Dunno why.

But Orcs are awesome.

Thats cos most orcs are like Mr T with a bit of something sinister, like Alan Rickman, thrown in for flavour.

40K orks are like Dick Van Dyke from Mary Poppins with a bit of Mr T thrown in for flavour.

[Encroaching Death]

Thats cos most orcs are like Mr T with a bit of something sinister, like Alan Rickman, thrown in for flavour.

40K orks are like Dick Van Dyke from Mary Poppins with a bit of Mr T thrown in for flavour.

You nailed it.

In 40k, they're the comedic relief. The type you don't take seriously.

Which is entertaining in its own right, but I prefer my orcs to be child-eating psychopaths....not to say 40k Orcs aren't that.

Only 40k could have child-eating psychopaths as the comedic relief...

[unsunghero]

Orcs (half) in Baldur’s gate can start with 19 str, so you don’t have to reroll a million times trying for that 18/00 with another race

They make amazing fighter/thieves. Put all your points in hide in shadows and move silently and backstab with a 2handed sword and watch enemies blow up due to overkill dmg

[Encroaching Death]

Orc rogues are a cool concept.

But nothing beats a classic orc berserker of some sort.

I played an Orc Fury Warrior (like everyone else) on WoW.

It just felt right.

[Toxigen]

Orc rogues are a cool concept.

But nothing beats a classic orc berserker of some sort.

I played an Orc Fury Warrior (like everyone else) on WoW.

It just felt right.

remember my jaw dropping when i first saw this

apgkI-0tOB4

windfury was op

[Encroaching Death]

Yeah, I remember Windfury being broken.

And that's Vanilla WoW when Fury Warriors were....sad. Poor bastards had to wear leather.

[Swish]

Enhancement shamans got nerfed to shit in TBC and onwards iirc. You couldn't use a 2h axe/mace anymore right? Then they allowed you to dual wield daggers which was even weirder as you're not a rogue. From a RP perspective a tauren shaman at one with nature, the elements, etc shouldn't be dual wielding daggers and stabbing the shit out of his enemies. Blizzard made some weird decisions.

[Reiwa]

Yeah, I remember Windfury being broken.

And that's Vanilla WoW when Fury Warriors were....sad. Poor bastards had to wear leather.

Did Nef phase 1 matter at all or was it just masturbation?

[Mblake1981]

All because humans kept being weak and lazy and wanting to be on the winning, more populated side

Reminds me of Battlefield 1942 (#1), the Battle of Britain map. Essentially one side was setup stronger than the other, if you randomed onto the weaker side you had a big fight on your hands.

I often pick on game design that focuses on "balance-queefing" because sometimes fun isn't balanced at all. Eventually official map designs were more even but they are nothing much to remark or remember.

*Note: This was an official map. There is a large channel of water between the two camps, you have to fly those planes or ride with others to get over there. If you understand game design you will know why they don't do this with mainstream games today. Its too hard. People are anti-griefing (to an extent.. anti-fun), and more ease-inclined. Just sell them some awesome skins and who cares about your player skills, map designs or any of that as long as it doesn't get in the way of you seeing that sweet skin you bought.

4KP28MQsnjo

[Jibartik]

That's a great game. Wish it had a p99

[Jibartik]

Also fuck people.

[Toxigen]

Enhancement shamans got nerfed to shit in TBC and onwards iirc. You couldn't use a 2h axe/mace anymore right? Then they allowed you to dual wield daggers which was even weirder as you're not a rogue. From a RP perspective a tauren shaman at one with nature, the elements, etc shouldn't be dual wielding daggers and stabbing the shit out of his enemies. Blizzard made some weird decisions.

yes, these were the good ole times

ja1j7xWpB3w

[WokeCat]

Enhancement shamans got nerfed to shit in TBC and onwards iirc. You couldn't use a 2h axe/mace anymore right? Then they allowed you to dual wield daggers which was even weirder as you're not a rogue. From a RP perspective a tauren shaman at one with nature, the elements, etc shouldn't be dual wielding daggers and stabbing the shit out of his enemies. Blizzard made some weird decisions.

What are you basing this on though? I imagine that the Shamans in WoW were based off of the Shamans in EverQuest, who use piercing quite a lot. The dual wield thing may be less plausible, but they just gave Druids the ability to dual wield daggers fairly recently. I don't Blizzard has ever cared about making sense.

vGhY1p_UYq8

I accept your apology in advance, hon. But I do gotta' say you did get me really triggered with your blind hate for people just trying to have some fun.

[Encroaching Death]

You got triggered by someone saying Shamans shouldn't dual wield daggers?....

Rofl

[Chortles Snortles]

https://i.imgur.com/BfFHa0F.png

[WokeCat]

You got triggered by someone saying Shamans shouldn't dual wield daggers?....

Rofl

It's not just what they said. It's the way they said it. You could just tell this person voted for Donald Trump.

[unsunghero]

I do remember shamans fell off hard in TBC pvp. They were very under-represented in vanilla TBC arenas unless on a 5v5 usually as elem or resto and mostly there for bloodlust. This may have changed for classic though with new metas but I doubt it

Elem r14 shaman in original classic (pre-TBC) was also pretty OP. I remember from playing on my arena team member’s account who had r14 shaman. Very tanky, huge heals that could refill a health bar to fill in one cast, and huge nukes. Vulnerable to being locked down like via rogues but if they were allowed to free-cast they could keep everyone around them alive while nuking the opponents down alternatively. Holy paladin as a contrast had basically zero offense

[Jibartik]

shamans can do anything, including lead a revolution.

[nostalgiaquest]

I mained a shaman pretty hardcore from launch. There was a moment in time where I was a fuckin wrecking ball in pvp. Had all high end raid tier/pvp gear, including two spell damage trinkets from MC/BWL or wherever. Then a deathbringer one hand axe off Ony. Spec was resto until the instant cast trait, then elemental.

With a trinket active, I could hit someone with two lightning bolts, a chain lightning, and an eartshock within the span of less than 2 seconds. If one of two of those crit, it would instant drop a mage or rogue. Then i come in with windfurrys, heals, and warstomp, which is one of the best racial traits in my opinion. 2 second ae stun with a 2 minute cooldown? That's enough time to get in a heal or a nuke.

My roommate at the time was a similarly geared shadow priest. Together we were unstoppable. Almost a shame i never recorded anything.

But yeah then BWL hit and things started going downhill. Final nail in the coffin for me was raid wide totems. Shamans went from being an important part of the fun raid groups like the main tank or rogue groups, to being in the back with the druids and warlocks lol.

[WokeCat]

I mained a shaman pretty hardcore from launch. There was a moment in time where I was a fuckin wrecking ball in pvp. Had all high end raid tier/pvp gear, including two spell damage trinkets from MC/BWL or wherever. Then a deathbringer one hand axe off Ony. Spec was resto until the instant cast trait, then elemental.

With a trinket active, I could hit someone with two lightning bolts, a chain lightning, and an eartshock within the span of less than 2 seconds. If one of two of those crit, it would instant drop a mage or rogue. Then i come in with windfurrys, heals, and warstomp, which is one of the best racial traits in my opinion. 2 second ae stun with a 2 minute cooldown? That's enough time to get in a heal or a nuke.

My roommate at the time was a similarly geared shadow priest. Together we were unstoppable. Almost a shame i never recorded anything.

But yeah then BWL hit and things started going downhill. Final nail in the coffin for me was raid wide totems. Shamans went from being an important part of the fun raid groups like the main tank or rogue groups, to being in the back with the druids and warlocks lol.

I used to rage at Shamans in PVP

I didnt understand how one class could seemingly do it all

they were tanky, they could heal, they could one shot 3 people with chain lightning

i remember calling them the superman class

[Toxigen]

I mained a shaman pretty hardcore from launch. There was a moment in time where I was a fuckin wrecking ball in pvp. Had all high end raid tier/pvp gear, including two spell damage trinkets from MC/BWL or wherever. Then a deathbringer one hand axe off Ony. Spec was resto until the instant cast trait, then elemental.

With a trinket active, I could hit someone with two lightning bolts, a chain lightning, and an eartshock within the span of less than 2 seconds. If one of two of those crit, it would instant drop a mage or rogue. Then i come in with windfurrys, heals, and warstomp, which is one of the best racial traits in my opinion. 2 second ae stun with a 2 minute cooldown? That's enough time to get in a heal or a nuke.

My roommate at the time was a similarly geared shadow priest. Together we were unstoppable. Almost a shame i never recorded anything.

But yeah then BWL hit and things started going downhill. Final nail in the coffin for me was raid wide totems. Shamans went from being an important part of the fun raid groups like the main tank or rogue groups, to being in the back with the druids and warlocks lol.

Raid wide totems weren't a thing until after TBC. Hope this helps.

[nostalgiaquest]

Actually, It does help! I meant to type TBC instead of BWL in that statement. Thank you for your help sir!

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

yet we still see this question asked all of the time and I can't help but wonder if the people who ask that question even know where it originated, or why they're still asking it 20+ years later


Me too. Like who even thought up this world, really? Elves? Where did that come from? So they are saying hmmm, I got it, and eq came out. Fucking brilliant imho. This entire concept basically blew everyone's mind when it appeared out of nowhere in 19 fucking 99.


I sometimes wonder, what were they like, the little people of Verant? What were they trying to tell us?
http://rockylouproductions.com/blog_wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/RaisinJiggleBand_Stonehenge.gif

[unsunghero]

Supposedly race mattered quite a lot in the original D&D because it meant only humans, dwarves, halflings, and dwarves had souls

The rest only had spirits, which includes elves of all types. It was originally done to prevent a crafty GM from ruining a campaign by having evil aligned clerics spam “raise dead” on every single dead kobold, orc, and every other enemy. Only people with souls could be resurrected

[Lune]

yes, these were the good ole times

ja1j7xWpB3w

lol what a joke.

Not one clip if this shaman being kited around by a hunter like a bitch. If a hunter skilled at kiting got the jump on a sham in this era there was literally nothing they could do.

Rogues could usually take them out as well.

[Lune]

although lmao at the druid that baits him into the lava, then survives while the shaman dies

[Jimjam]

Supposedly race mattered quite a lot in the original D&D because it meant only humans, dwarves, halflings, and dwarves had souls

The rest only had spirits, which includes elves of all types. It was originally done to prevent a crafty GM from ruining a campaign by having evil aligned clerics spam “raise dead” on every single dead kobold, orc, and every other enemy. Only people with souls could be resurrected

I played a bit of 2nd ADnD and the DnD red box. Didn't realise this. It is pretty cool! Also perhaps goes some way to explains why in early Warhammer 40K the space elves had spirit stones?

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Supposedly race mattered quite a lot in the original D&D because it meant only humans, dwarves, halflings, and dwarves had souls

The rest only had spirits, which includes elves of all types. It was originally done to prevent a crafty GM from ruining a campaign by having evil aligned clerics spam “raise dead” on every single dead kobold, orc, and every other enemy. Only people with souls could be resurrected


Holy shit didn't know elves were unsouled in d&d.



But let me ask everyone here something, and be honest.


Does frontal stun immunity make you horny? Randy?

[Foxplay]

Classic WoW- Had meta class race/combo's that where significantly better than other options (Maybe not as big a difference in classic EQ but Kunark and Velious gear especially made race pretty pointless)

Even recently in WoW there has been specific raid fights that entire guilds Race-changed just to have a certain racial to have an edge on world first..... Not a huge deal for general gameplay and quite literally 0.0001% of the population doing that but still...... I would not say that Race / class combos are pointless in other MMO's

[Encroaching Death]

Does frontal stun immunity make you horny? Randy?

Not me, personally. Even though my Shaman is an Ogre.

I like Iksar Necro the best. That HP regen to offset Lich is...*chef's kiss*