I know it's not classic, but...

[Gloomlord]

Why do we have to babysit warriors through the levelling process? Can't they get Provoke?

Everytime I group with a warrior, I groan with frustration, and then watch as both DPS and slowers proceed to pull of them and make a mess of things.

[Jimjam]

Try root / team work.

[PatChapp]

Yeah root really solves all agro problems for group play, it's basically no mana.

[Danth]

Why do we have to babysit warriors through the levelling process?

You don't have to. You can fuss with root if you want, but you can also use someone else as tank. The local paladin, shadowknight, heck even ranger or monk or bard might be happy to do the job. Nothing wrong with using a warrior as a low-maintenance damage dealer instead. With the weapons available they usually do fair enough damage in such a role, especially if keeping to low health.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don't have to. You can fuss with root if you want, but you can also use someone else as tank. The local paladin, shadowknight, heck even ranger or monk or bard might be happy to do the job. Nothing wrong with using a warrior as a low-maintenance damage dealer instead. With the weapons available they usually do fair enough damage in such a role, especially if keeping to low health.

Danth

Exactly. In the low levels (1-30 or so) a Warrior is going to do at least as much DPS as a charmed pet with fairly cheap weapons and a haste item.

30-39 Warriors are still doing great damage since mobs are balanced to be weaker from levels 1-39.

40+ Warriors can start generating agro better because they can start procing easy to get agro weapons like https://wiki.project1999.com/Frostbringer at 40 and https://wiki.project1999.com/Sarnak_Warhammer at 46. Also https://wiki.project1999.com/Short_Sword_of_the_Ykesha at 37.

As the others have said, root is always an option, and gets better in the higher levels since mobs are going to take a little longer to die.

[Arkophat]

At beginning of green root was heavily used, flash of light too actually, shaman or cleric could use it for less mana, at low level mobs didn't last long enough for it to wear off anyway.

[PlsNoBan]

Exactly. In the low levels (1-30 or so) a Warrior is going to do at least as much DPS as a charmed pet with fairly cheap weapons and a haste item.

https://i.imgur.com/JkMM4UV.gif

[cd288]

https://i.imgur.com/JkMM4UV.gif

Lol he really left the other thread to come here and just start making the same arguments again. This is hilarious

[Troxx]

Exactly. In the low levels (1-30 or so) a Warrior is going to do at least as much DPS as a charmed pet with fairly cheap weapons and a haste item.

https://c.tenor.com/jAkNHtepdU4AAAAM/eew-no.gif

Again with this lol?

Without involving charmed mobs in the discussion (lol), yes a twinked warrior will put out perfectly adequate dps in a standard group (both low medium-high levels). It won’t be knock your socks off great mind you, but totally sufficient. At higher levels warriors will only put out decent to good dps with strong gear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Again with this lol?

Without involving charmed mobs in the discussion (lol), yes a twinked warrior will put out perfectly adequate dps in a standard group (both low medium-high levels). It won’t be knock your socks off great mind you, but totally sufficient. At higher levels warriors will only put out decent to good dps with strong gear.

You haven't disproven the data, and I have a level 24 Warrior and 30 Enchanter. I am really not sure why you are questioning the data, you have nothing to counter it.

A Warrior is outputting good DPS from levels 1-30 at least with Wurmslayer + Fist of Zek and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps. Better weapons would obviously do even better.

[Troxx]

Please do not turn another thread into a dumpster fire.

https://c.tenor.com/J2ZyNtqmOSQAAAAM/walk-away-clinton-sparks.gif

[Encroaching Death]

Warriors do like Ranger DPS, right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please do not turn another thread into a dumpster fire.



You need to tell yourself that. Please stop trolling. You have racked up hundreds of troll posts already.

Warriors do indeed do at least as much DPS as a charmed pet 1-30. I am sorry you don't like the data, but the data is there.

At beginning of green root was heavily used, flash of light too actually, shaman or cleric could use it for less mana, at low level mobs didn't last long enough for it to wear off anyway.

Yes flash of light works too, but it's a little riskier since the mob may run away if you get out of melee range.

[Troxx]

Warriors do like Ranger DPS, right?

Depends on level and gear. But yes plus or minus however much it isn’t all that different. They very similar but have none of the spell utility.

[Troxx]

I recommend for the sake of this thread nobody bother talking about charm pets and warriors. It will not end well. Better for all parties involve to just walk away.

*cough

https://wiki.project1999.com/Osargen

*cough cough

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I recommend for the sake of this thread nobody bother talking about charm pets and warriors. It will not end well. Better for all parties involve to just walk away.

There is nothing wrong with discussing it. I am sorry it triggers you.

Melee classes are quite strong in the early levels with fairly low investment.

[PlsNoBan]

Any hasted rogue charm with a torch or weapons will clown a equal level warrior without pretty extreme twinking and/or abusing permanent zerk mode which can be difficult/risky. Even then I'm not so sure. Bonus points if you can pickup some mage pet toys in EC beforehand. I've always personally enjoyed leveling in mistmoore. Can't go wrong with the rogue mobs there. Gypsy dancer.etc

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Any hasted rogue charm with a torch or weapons will clown a equal level warrior without pretty extreme twinking and/or abusing permanent zerk mode which can be difficult/risky. Even then I'm not so sure. Bonus points if you can pickup some mage pet toys in EC beforehand. I've always personally enjoyed leveling in mistmoore. Can't go wrong with the rogue mobs there. Gypsy dancer.etc

Of course Rogue pets can do more DPS than a normal charmed pet with backstab.

Unfortunately rogue pets aren't available in every zone. I am using the lowest common denominator of pets, which is typically not a rogue.

[PlsNoBan]

There's quite a few rogue mobs scattered around. I honestly think even regular warrior mobs would do more properly hasted with weapons. I don't have parses readily available to compare but I've played enchanters extensively and never seen a warrior do more. Like ever. Possible I never grouped with warriors that were twinked sufficiently? Dunno

[Toxigen]

oh boy here we go another 300 pager

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There's quite a few rogue mobs scattered around. I honestly think even regular warrior mobs would do more properly hasted with weapons. I don't have parses readily available to compare but I've played enchanters extensively and never seen a warrior do more. Like ever. Possible I never grouped with warriors that were twinked sufficiently? Dunno

This "a glyphed sentry" (level 27-29 Warrior) has 37% haste from Alacrity (to simulate Tola Robe), and a torch in offhand:


[Tue Aug 30 19:44:06 2022] a glyphed sentry says 'Do not underestimate the might of Mistmoore!'
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:06 2022] a glyphed sentry tells you, 'Attacking a glyphed warder Master.'
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:07 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 16 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:07 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 34 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:09 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 13 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:09 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 16 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:11 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 27 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:12 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 13 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:17 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 29 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:18 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 15 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:19 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:21 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:24 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 8 points of damage..
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:28 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:29 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 12 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:30 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 34 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:30 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:30 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:36 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:36 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:45 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 27 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:47 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:49 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:56 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:56 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:58 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 11 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:58 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 40 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:44:58 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 11 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:00 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 16 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:02 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:02 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 48 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:04 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:06 2022] A glyphed sentry kicks a glyphed warder for 6 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:06 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:10 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 45 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:11 2022] A glyphed sentry bashes a glyphed warder for 12 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:12 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 37 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:12 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 32 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:15 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 50 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:15 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:17 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 13 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:19 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 8 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] A glyphed sentry kicks a glyphed warder for 6 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] A glyphed sentry punches a glyphed warder for 55 points of damage.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] a glyphed warder has been slain by a glyphed sentry!
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with AgentsofMistmoore could not possibly get any worse.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with KingTearisThex got better.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with LeagueofAntonicanBards got better.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with MayongMistmoore could not possibly get any worse.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] Your faction standing with RingofScale got better.
[Tue Aug 30 19:45:23 2022] You gain experience!!


1436 in 1 minute 16 seconds = 18.9 DPS

Here is my 24 Warrior fighting a level 24 mob with just 22% worn haste from Silver Chitin Hand Wraps, so he could still be spell hasted. He is using Wurmslayer and Fist of Zek. This example doesn't have crit/crippling blows:


[Wed Aug 31 07:38:53 2022] Auto attack on.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 62 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 52 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:54 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 15 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:57 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 73 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:38:59 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 42 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:00 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:04 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:04 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:07 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 18 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:08 2022] You kick a froglok vis shaman for 8 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:10 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:13 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:13 2022] You crush a froglok vis shaman for 6 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:16 2022] a froglok vis shaman begins to cast a spell.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:17 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 43 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:19 2022] a froglok vis shaman regains concentration and continues casting.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:19 2022] A froglok vis shaman feels much better.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:20 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:20 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 50 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 48 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You slash a froglok vis shaman for 62 points of damage.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You have slain a froglok vis shaman!
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] Your faction standing with FrogloksofGuk got worse.
[Wed Aug 31 07:39:23 2022] You gain experience!!


772 over 29 seconds = 26.6 DPS

Obviously more parses are needed to get a true average, but you can see that a charmed Warrior Pet's DPS isn't leagues ahead of what a Warrior could do. Even if it averaged out to where the Charmed Warrior Pet's DPS is 1 or 2 higher, that won't be a significant difference. You will be killing things well with a Warrior's DPS in the low levels.

[PlsNoBan]

If you say so man. I've had first hand experience dozens of times. I don't really care about anyone's questionable parse data.

https://i.imgur.com/Y0FJYxo.gif

[PlsNoBan]

You know what they say "A picture is worth 1000 words" and the above GIF has 16 frames. Therefore via the power of math I just said "I'm out" 16,000 times.

https://i.imgur.com/ayJdQ0F.png

and I just said another 1000 to prove it. I know you'll appreciate the math and data here DSM <3

[Jimjam]

No one is taking a glyphed ghoul as a pet to guk. You need to run oarae on the same mob in the same zone imo.

[VesperVapes]

I'm making a warrior because Gimli

[Troxx]

oh boy here we go another 300 pager

https://c.tenor.com/ezqHvLHnyfkAAAAM/oh-boy-here-we-go-again.gif

[Gloomlord]

Yes, I know about root tanking. I know how to make a warrior tank work in a group.

All I'm saying is that it's frustrating when you have a lazy group member refusing to root and give the warrior time to get aggro. Did the developers intend for warrior, a tank class, to be so bad at holding aggro?

[Troxx]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Osargen

Charmed whut?

[Jimjam]

Yes, I know about root tanking. I know how to make a warrior tank work in a group.

All I'm saying is that it's frustrating when you have a lazy group member refusing to root and give the warrior time to get aggro. Did the developers intend for warrior, a tank class, to be so bad at holding aggro?

No, sword and board was their intended to tank set up. Bash stun was meant to scale aggro with target mob hp the same way spell stun aggro does. Taunt was intended to work on yellow/reds at reduced efficiency instead of not at all.

They just fucked up the warrior’s two main tools to obtain and maintain aggro.

[Goobles]

Why do we have to babysit warriors through the levelling process? Can't they get Provoke?

Everytime I group with a warrior, I groan with frustration, and then watch as both DPS and slowers proceed to pull of them and make a mess of things.

Let's start with simple quality of life improvements, such as guild or raid window. Or maybe /key

[Toxigen]

When you play in small groups (duos and trios) warrior lack of threat isn't really an issue.

Avoid large groups you're just helping mouthbreathing slackers.

Hope this helps.

[Gloomlord]

No, sword and board was their intended to tank set up. Bash stun was meant to scale aggro with target mob hp the same way spell stun aggro does. Taunt was intended to work on yellow/reds at reduced efficiency instead of not at all.

They just fucked up the warrior’s two main tools to obtain and maintain aggro.

Part of me thinks that is a lie they've told us.

They couldn't figure out by the time of Velious that bash stun didn't work as intended?

[cd288]

Lmao heeeerrreeeee we go DSM coming into another thread to make the same arguments he made in the last one (where he posted 1,100 times (!)) with long random "data" posts of cherry picked parses

DSM, just to clarify for you: If you write some long final post in the other thread telling everyone they are trolls and don't know what their talking about and sanctimoniously saying that you're above it all (despite posting 1,100 times in that thread) and you're leaving...well, that whole sanctimonious thing is kind of null and void if you just go to a different thread and just keep making some of the same arguments you made in the last one

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lmao heeeerrreeeee we go DSM coming into another thread to make the same arguments he made in the last one (where he posted 1,100 times (!)) with long random "data" posts of cherry picked parses

DSM, just to clarify for you: If you write some long final post in the other thread telling everyone they are trolls and don't know what their talking about and sanctimoniously saying that you're above it all (despite posting 1,100 times in that thread) and you're leaving...well, that whole sanctimonious thing is kind of null and void if you just go to a different thread and just keep making some of the same arguments you made in the last one

Please stop trolling threads. You were a troll in that thread, and deserved to be called as such. Nobody has disproven the data yet, not even yourself. Just posting nonsense isn't proving anything. That is true in this thread, and it is true in the last thread.

I am surprised people haven't leveled melee characters from 1-30 before. It's pretty obvious they do good DPS at low levels with decent weapons and a haste item.

[cd288]

Of course they do good DPS. No one is saying they don't. But there's a reason that soloing many non-twinked melee classes isn't the most viable. Because mobs do great DPS.

[PlsNoBan]

I have leveled every EQ class to 50+ for the record. Some many times over. Lots of them twinked fairly heavily. I've done enchanter EASILY 5+ times 50+ across multiple servers including original classic back in the day, p99, multiple TLP's. I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of this game as a whole and the power levels of various classes. Enchanter especially. No random one off parse is going to change my mind.

[Toxigen]

I have leveled every EQ class to 50+ for the record. Some many times over. Lots of them twinked fairly heavily. I've done enchanter EASILY 5+ times 50+ across multiple servers including original classic back in the day, p99, multiple TLP's. I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of this game as a whole and the power levels of various classes. Enchanter especially. No random one off parse is going to change my mind.

I think if I ever come back I'm going to de-level Toxigen to 5 and get some sweet solo logs for DSM to sperg over.

[cd288]

I have leveled every EQ class to 50+ for the record. Some many times over. Lots of them twinked fairly heavily. I've done enchanter EASILY 5+ times 50+ across multiple servers including original classic back in the day, p99, multiple TLP's. I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of this game as a whole and the power levels of various classes. Enchanter especially. No random one off parse is going to change my mind.

Yeah I mean the thing with a one off parse is it's useless in an RNG game like classic EQ.

There are times where the RNG is just gonna go against what the general trend should be. Like if you did 1,000 parses I bet you there's gonna be like 200 (just using a very rough guess) where the warrior out DPSes a charmed and hasted mob. It just happens sometimes because it's RNG.

You also need to factor in any buffs the warrior may have had along with the specific mob's (both the enemy mob in both cases, and the charmed mob's) overall stats. You also need to look at the Warrior's STR, which can be increased significantly with gear that people would probably not call "twink" gear. But anyway, we've been over all this with respect to DSM's parses before. He takes one parse, provides minimal details, and then goes "TeH dAtA pRoVeS mE rIgHt guyessss". It's not useful data.

Thankfully he isn't involved in any sort of important profession that affects our lives, such as scientific trials, otherwise we could be in deep trouble.

[Castle2.0]

You haven't disproven the data, and I have a level 24 Warrior and 30 Enchanter. I am really not sure why you are questioning the data, you have nothing to counter it.

A Warrior is outputting good DPS from levels 1-30 at least with Wurmslayer + Fist of Zek and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps. Better weapons would obviously do even better.

Maybe dual wurmslayer... which my ranger has.. only toon on server w/ dual wield wurmy now muahaha

[Danth]

Of course they do good DPS. No one is saying they don't. But there's a reason that soloing many non-twinked melee classes isn't the most viable. Because mobs do great DPS.

Experience has demonstrated lack of solo melees is mostly due to their terrible health recovery. Solo melees, even without fungus tunics, were turning into a commonplace sight once combat bind wound got popularized, until its well-deserved nerf.

Warrior with a good weapon will do fair damage at a level range where the warrior might be hitting for 50's or 60's, not even counting crits or berserking, while similar mobs might be hitting for 40's. Monster damage scales pretty quickly and outpaces the player melee soon enough, but at low levels players can keep up if they're using over-leveled weapons. That same level ~20 warrior with a level-appropriate 6/26 axe isn't impressing anyone.

For the sake of my earlier post, the warrior doesn't have to match a charm pet anyway--few people do--but merely do enough damage to be a useful contribution in that regard. The class definitely has the tools to do that and its offense is probably somewhat under-rated by the community at large.

Danth

[PlsNoBan]

the warrior doesn't have to match a charm pet anyway

I will 100% agree with this point. You do not have to do charm level DPS to be useful and any twinked melee is going to do enough sustained DPS to be worthwhile for the most part.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I have leveled every EQ class to 50+ for the record. Some many times over. Lots of them twinked fairly heavily. I've done enchanter EASILY 5+ times 50+ across multiple servers including original classic back in the day, p99, multiple TLP's. I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of this game as a whole and the power levels of various classes. Enchanter especially. No random one off parse is going to change my mind.

The only thing that matters for this thread is what the P99 data shows today. It could very well have felt different during live, for example, because most people had crap gear. You didn't have a lot of Warriors with a weapon like Wurmslayer, or a good haste item.

It could have even been a bit different when you leveled your Enchanter on P99 if it was years ago.

[PlsNoBan]

The only thing that matters for this thread is what the P99 data shows today. It could very well have felt different during live, for example, because most people had crap gear. You didn't have a lot of Warriors with a weapon like Wurmslayer, or a good haste item.

It could have even been a bit different when you leveled your Enchanter on P99 if it was years ago.

https://i.imgur.com/doc0XZY.gif

[cd288]

Experience has demonstrated lack of solo melees is mostly due to their terrible health recovery. Solo melees, even without fungus tunics, were turning into a commonplace sight once combat bind wound got popularized, until its well-deserved nerf.

Warrior with a good weapon will do fair damage at a level range where the warrior might be hitting for 50's or 60's, not even counting crits or berserking, while similar mobs might be hitting for 40's. Monster damage scales pretty quickly and outpaces the player melee soon enough, but at low levels players can keep up if they're using over-leveled weapons. That same level ~20 warrior with a level-appropriate 6/26 axe isn't impressing anyone.

For the sake of my earlier post, the warrior doesn't have to match a charm pet anyway--few people do--but merely do enough damage to be a useful contribution in that regard. The class definitely has the tools to do that and its offense is probably somewhat under-rated by the community at large.

Danth

So a lot of writing to say exactly what I said, which is that twinkled warriors might be somewhat viable. Like you said overleveled weapons that aren’t realistic that someone of that level should actually have (oh and as DSM says, a haste item too lololol)

[unsunghero]

I have seen so many twinked monks (I assume twinked) as I was leveling, that it made the monk class seem like the most broken in the game

I’d be thinking I was OP soloing stuff in Sol B on enc, then some monk would come in who was 5 levels lower than me and be wrecking stuff doing fast hits of like 120 damage, killing much faster than me since I was relying on a charmed mob that’s whiffing like crazy miss miss miss miss miss “wow this shit is boring why can’t they hit each other”, meanwhile the monk has killed like 3 mobs at 5 levels lower than me

Only now in around the mid-50’s have charmed mobs been able to match the twinked monk’s damage, but I bet they still aren’t swinging as fast or hitting as often without buffs

[PlsNoBan]

I have seen so many twinked monks (I assume twinked) as I was leveling, that it made the monk class seem like the most broken in the game

I’d be thinking I was OP soloing stuff in Sol B on enc, then some monk would come in who was 5 levels lower than me and be wrecking stuff doing fast hits of like 120 damage, killing much faster than me since I was relying on a charmed mob that’s whiffing like crazy miss miss miss miss miss “wow this shit is boring why can’t they hit each other”, meanwhile the monk has killed like 3 mobs at 5 levels lower than me

Only now in around the mid-50’s have charmed mobs been able to match the twinked monk’s damage, but I bet they still aren’t swinging as fast or hitting as often without buffs

https://i.imgur.com/YwlhvcL.gif

No mention whether your charms are hasted/weaponized or if they have any pet toys. I can probably see a heavily twinked monk outdamaging a charm if it's not hasted and doesn't have weapons. Those monks could have CoF and be fully buffed with fungi tunics for all we know. Not really a fair comparison and lots of unknown variables. Also this just in: Monks do more damage than warriors

[cd288]

https://i.imgur.com/YwlhvcL.gif

Lmao

[unsunghero]

It’s those crazy staves man. What is that, the Tstaff? They’re always clobbering stuff with a 2h staff

I’m one of the least experienced enchanters on this forum, but I think some people who haven’t played one might underestimate just how often charmed mobs miss each other. They really don’t swing all that fast and they miss all the damn time. I’ve had fights that have gone what feels like 4+ minutes of miss miss miss miss miss. It’s easy yes, but I wouldn’t call it necessarily fast

Of course it’s faster to get one and crash it into 2-3 others but that’s not always possible to set up and harder to safely charm break without ggr without risking your little friend dying

[PlsNoBan]

It’s those crazy staves man. What is that, the Tstaff? They’re always clobbering stuff with a 2h staff

I’m one of the least experienced enchanters on this forum, but I think some people who haven’t played one might underestimate just how often charmed mobs miss each other. They really don’t swing all that fast and they miss all the damn time. I’ve had fights that have gone what feels like 4+ minutes of miss miss miss miss miss. It’s easy yes, but I wouldn’t call it necessarily fast

Of course it’s faster to get one and crash it into 2-3 others but that’s not always possible to set up and harder to safely charm break without ggr without risking your little friend dying

Yeah it's tough to compare a fungi + tstaff + CoF fully buffed monk to essentially a naked enchanter. That level of twinking sub-50 is just going to destroy everything. I'm honestly not sure DPS wise how it would compare. I'm fairly confident that a fully kitted/buffed rogue charm pet is still going to clown even a twinked monk. Regular warrior mob charm? Maybe not? Not really sure. Charm DPS overtakes even the most twinked melees at a certain point but it's debatable exactly where that point is. It also sounds like you aren't hasting or giving your pets weapons. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing when soloing if your goal is to get both mobs low and break charm/nuke method. But it certainly isn't the most optimal way to do the most DPS with charms. In a group setting with weapons and haste the damage will be considerably different.

[unsunghero]

Yeah it's tough to compare a fungi + tstaff + CoF fully buffed monk to essentially a naked enchanter. That level of twinking sub-50 is just going to destroy everything. I'm honestly not sure DPS wise how it would compare. I'm fairly confident that a fully kitted/buffed rogue charm pet is still going to clown even a twinked monk. Regular warrior mob charm? Maybe not? Not really sure. Charm DPS overtakes even the most twinked melees at a certain point but it's debatable exactly where that point is. It also sounds like you aren't hasting or giving your pets weapons. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing when soloing if your goal is to get both mobs low and break charm/nuke method. But it certainly isn't the most optimal way to do the most DPS with charms. In a group setting with weapons and haste the damage will be considerably different.

I mean ok, I know you can give the charmed pet a torch or w/e and haste it, but honestly that never really appealed to me for leveling for a couple reasons:

1. I don’t like dying
2. You have to give up 50% exp every kill. I’d rather break it and kill both, or if the target came out way ahead than that’s the new pet
3. Even all tricked out and a higher level, these guys seem to be only able to kill 3ish mobs before they are too low health, unless you want to be berzerking buffing them over and over which gets mana intensive. You can break charm and mez/blur them but that feels kinda awkward, kinda slow (waiting for their health to chunk back up)

I’m sure at near max level there’s some really underconned monster pets you can set up though, but that’s probably more for a fun factor or farming goal than exp

[PlsNoBan]

I mean ok, I know you can give the charmed pet a torch or w/e and haste it, but honestly that never really appealed to me for leveling for a couple reasons:

1. I don’t like dying
2. You have to give up 50% exp every kill. I’d rather break it and kill both, or if the target came our way ahead than that’s the new pet
3. Even all tricked out and a higher level, these guys seem to be only able to kill 3ish mobs before they are too low health, unless you want to be berzerking buffing them over and over which gets mana intensive. You can break charm and mez/blur them but that feels kinda awkward, kinda slow (waiting for their health to chunk back up)

I’m sure at near max level there’s some really underconned monster pets you can set up though, but that’s probably more for a fun factor or farming goal than exp

Like I said absolutely nothing wrong with not hasting or weaponizing if you're soloing and doing the break and kill method over and over. In this scenario though you're purposely not doing as much damage as you could be doing in favor of efficiency (and you're killing 2 mobs at a time this way). Your class is capable of as much/more damage than even those incredibly twinked monks. It just may not be the most efficient to do while soloing. Find a cleric friend to duo with then give your pets haste + torch + muzzle of mardu and enjoy absolutely demolishing everything :)

[unsunghero]

Like I said absolutely nothing wrong with not hasting or weaponizing if you're soloing and doing the break and kill method over and over. In this scenario though you're purposely not doing as much damage as you could be doing in favor of efficiency (and you're killing 2 mobs at a time this way). Your class is capable of as much/more damage than even those incredibly twinked monks. It just may not be the most efficient to do while soloing. Find a cleric friend to duo with then give your pets haste + torch + muzzle of mardu and enjoy absolutely demolishing everything :)

Lol k ya that does sound kinda fun. Need to find some friends someday

[Toxigen]

I have seen so many twinked monks (I assume twinked) as I was leveling, that it made the monk class seem like the most broken in the game

I’d be thinking I was OP soloing stuff in Sol B on enc, then some monk would come in who was 5 levels lower than me and be wrecking stuff doing fast hits of like 120 damage, killing much faster than me since I was relying on a charmed mob that’s whiffing like crazy miss miss miss miss miss “wow this shit is boring why can’t they hit each other”, meanwhile the monk has killed like 3 mobs at 5 levels lower than me

Only now in around the mid-50’s have charmed mobs been able to match the twinked monk’s damage, but I bet they still aren’t swinging as fast or hitting as often without buffs

Couple of things here:

1) Don't sweat the twink monks. That is precisely what they are designed to do. Take comfort in once you're both 60 you'll have access to all the most lucrative camps in the game as a solo enc.

2) Keep an eye out for clerics or necros LFG. 2 totally different duo setups...for pure XP I think necro is better if you guys can hit up an undead charm spot. Honestly necro/enc is the fastest leveling duo in the entire game (outside of bard swarm crap).


Until 60 and farming, as a solo enc you really don't need to torch / haste pets. Its more efficient to let your charm pet get low, finish it for full xp w/ a nuke, grab a freshie, and keep going. This is especially true if you're undergeared and less experienced as a torched pet is far less forgiving when the ole RNG comes to bite you in the ass.

@unsung, you on blue on green?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So a lot of writing to say exactly what I said, which is that twinkled warriors might be somewhat viable. Like you said overleveled weapons that aren’t realistic that someone of that level should actually have (oh and as DSM says, a haste item too lololol)

What they "should have" isn't really relevant on a 10 year old server stuck on the same timeline.

A lot of people twink their characters, and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps + Staff of Battle is like 700pp for both on Blue lol.

[Danth]

So a lot of writing to say exactly what I said, which is that twinkled warriors might be somewhat viable. Like you said overleveled weapons that aren’t realistic that someone of that level should actually have

Well, yeah, I'll try to post at times even when in broad agreement because it helps counteract the natural tendency towards forum negativity, disagreement being a frequent driving force of forum discussions.

As for how realistic it is for someone to have out-leveled equipment, depends on where you're at. P1999, today, Green or Blue both, it's plenty realistic and probably nearer than not to standard. Fresh server, new Green, they're going to have those 6/26 axes if even anything that high or mighty.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, yeah, I'll try to post at times even when in broad agreement because it helps counteract the natural tendency towards forum negativity, disagreement being a frequent driving force of forum discussions.

As for how realistic it is for someone to have out-leveled equipment, depends on where you're at. P1999, today, Green or Blue both, it's plenty realistic and probably nearer than not to standard. Fresh server, new Green, they're going to have those 6/26 axes if even anything that high or mighty.

Danth

Exactly. OP didn't specify the timeline, and it sounds like he is referring to the current time. On a fresh server Enchanters will obviously do better than a Warrior, because good ratio weapons and haste items are not easy to come by in Vanilla. But in that situation you put up with helping Warriors level because you need them when Kunark drops.

[cd288]

What they "should have" isn't really relevant on a 10 year old server stuck on the same timeline.

A lot of people twink their characters, and Silver Chitin Hand Wraps + Staff of Battle is like 700pp for both on Blue lol.

Oh wow so you're doing your moving the goalposts thing again. Your original position across threads has been "Warriors are better DPS than charmed mobs"

Now when someone points out how your argument is flawed and your parses are cherry-picked useless data, you move the goalposts to "a twinked out warrior is better DPS than charmed mobs"

Well boys, let's settle in for the long haul here because we all know what's about to happen. We're going to get a 300 page thread with 1k posts from DSM where he shifts his argument 100 times. Getting the popcorn ready again.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh wow so you're doing your moving the goalposts thing again. Your original position across threads has been "Warriors are better DPS than charmed mobs"

Now when someone points out how your argument is flawed and your parses are cherry-picked useless data, you move the goalposts to "a twinked out warrior is better DPS than charmed mobs"

Well boys, let's settle in for the long haul here because we all know what's about to happen. We're going to get a 300 page thread with 1k posts from DSM where he shifts his argument 100 times. Getting the popcorn ready again.

You just keep trolling. Please stop. I always said "with decent weapons and a haste item". I also explicitly said "levels 1-30". I never made the argument that Warriors can out-DPS an Enchanter pet naked, or during the higher levels. Honestly I have no idea why you make this stuff up. You have reading comprehension issues, or you are trolling. It's not helping your arguments either way.

[cd288]

TLDR for most of your posts on these forums: "Whenever someone says I am wrong they are trolling"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

TLDR for most of your posts on these forums: "Whenever someone says I am wrong they are trolling"

No. You are trolling when you make ridiculous strawmen, like the claim that I said "Warriors DPS better than Charmed Enchanter Pets no matter what".

I have always said "Warriors can do at least as much DPS as a Charmed Enchanter Pet with decent weapons and a haste item, levels 1-30". I showed parses to back this up. You can check my post history lol. You won't find this strawman you keep attacking.

[unsunghero]

Couple of things here:

1) Don't sweat the twink monks. That is precisely what they are designed to do. Take comfort in once you're both 60 you'll have access to all the most lucrative camps in the game as a solo enc.

2) Keep an eye out for clerics or necros LFG. 2 totally different duo setups...for pure XP I think necro is better if you guys can hit up an undead charm spot. Honestly necro/enc is the fastest leveling duo in the entire game (outside of bard swarm crap).


Until 60 and farming, as a solo enc you really don't need to torch / haste pets. Its more efficient to let your charm pet get low, finish it for full xp w/ a nuke, grab a freshie, and keep going. This is especially true if you're undergeared and less experienced as a torched pet is far less forgiving when the ole RNG comes to bite you in the ass.

@unsung, you on blue on green?

Kk good to know

Green

[unsunghero]

I was never all that impressed with mob dps until they started hitting for above 100 each

They all swing pretty slow. People on forums would say enchanter animation is bad when compared to charmed mobs at any level above like 25. It never seemed all that true to me. Sure the animation hits for less but they hit significantly more often and faster, and this is before giving them two weapons and haste. But I dunno, I’ve never bothered to parse them or anything. But they swing much faster and seem to hit with better consistency. Charmed mobs miss A LOT

That being said, animation pet to me is terrible for leveling because you can’t control it, it’s extremely boring (just slow the mob and sit on your ass doing nothing), and is guaranteed to eat 50% exp unless you want to try to blur the mob, which wastes time and mana

But in terms of damage? I dunno, I think it’s closer or ahead all they up to around 45-50ish

[cd288]

Animation is too squishy

[unsunghero]

Animation is too squishy

Yeah you have to slow every mob which I wouldn’t be doing when charm soloing. But once the mob is slowed the animation was able to tank blues all the way to 50 for me

Boon of the garou helped too which I kept on it permanently and was SOOOO effing annoying listening to thing loudly growl every 3 seconds. I dunno how you all put up with the skeleton laugh. If I was going to be using animation full time I’d need to go deleting/modifying some sound files

[cd288]

The real question is why use animation at all when you can just do the charm soloing thing where you break charm and kill both mobs. One of the fastest leveling options out there.

[unsunghero]

The real question is why use animation at all when you can just do the charm soloing thing where you break charm and kill both mobs. One of the fastest leveling options out there.

No I agree, there is no point, it’s terrible and terribly boring

But the thing can throw hands though, dps wise

[Cen]

Why do we have to babysit warriors through the levelling process? Can't they get Provoke?

Everytime I group with a warrior, I groan with frustration, and then watch as both DPS and slowers proceed to pull of them and make a mess of things.

This is that old towelboy thing. Playing a cleric is just being the warriors towelboy since they heal. Being a tank is being the groups towelboy while they do damage.

You have roles and you work together as a team.


Warriors are the best mitigators, but they come with poor threat gen, so you use root to make their mitigation get used well and the healer heals them. Warriors are great.

Snap tanks have better threat but lose out in other areas.



You aren't babysitting the warrior any more then they are babysitting you. Its teamwork.

[Goldknyght]

blah ik its not classic, but cant the quests that were spose to be done in classic but SOE were morons and didnt finish the quests till people realized they didnt. all the iksar quests should be allowed on p99. whistling fists, etc. Think people need to take a step back and say, hey those things wont ruin classic just cuz the idiots at SoE didnt finish their jobs because SONY wanted to keep making money as fast as possible.

[Gloomlord]

This is that old towelboy thing. Playing a cleric is just being the warriors towelboy since they heal. Being a tank is being the groups towelboy while they do damage.

You have roles and you work together as a team.


Warriors are the best mitigators, but they come with poor threat gen, so you use root to make their mitigation get used well and the healer heals them. Warriors are great.

Snap tanks have better threat but lose out in other areas.



You aren't babysitting the warrior any more then they are babysitting you. Its teamwork.

As someone else said in the underpowered thread: all other classes are self-contained except for warrior.

Warrior should not require a person rooting for him in order to do his job. That is what I mean with "babysit". Paladin, Shadowknight and Ranger do not require having other teammates do their basic function in a group for tanking.

Did I ever imply teamwork wasn't involved here? I'm saying the warrior needs excessive attention in order to function. If someone is the slower of the group, they have to wait for a proc that might not even go off. Sometimes the warrior won't even have a proc weapon.

Warriors sure are "great" with a whole lot of gear and when they're tanking raid bosses, but they are exceedingly annoying to play with and poorly designed.

[PlsNoBan]

If there was no raiding in the game warriors would be bar-none the weakest most useless class in the game. I don't think many people would dispute that. The problem is P99 cares more about being "classic" (or so they claim) than doing what makes sense or trying to balance anything. The issue for me is they pick and choose when to do things the classic way and arbitrarily make non classic changes for whatever reason and it's typically not the type of changes players are asking for or want to see that would actually improve the QoL of the server and it's players. Such as making warriors actually able to generate threat and tank prior to max lvl with some of the best threat gen weapons in the game. I wish they'd just pick a side of the fence and stick to it. Either be classic in every sense or abandon any notion that your ultimate goal is classic and just do things in the way that makes the most sense regardless of what is and is not classic.

[Gloomlord]

Wizards would also be the weakest in the game if it were not for raiding. They're essentially just a class for making money, mobilisation and getting people to PoH and PoS.

I think I'd honestly prefer a 2nd paladin in a group if I wanted a dedicated rooter and stunner. They can at least provide better sustained damage over time with a good 2 handed weapon and a haste item. That should put in perspective just how useless they are.

[PlsNoBan]

Wizards would also be the weakest in the game if it were not for raiding. They're essentially just a class for making money, mobilisation and getting people to PoH and PoS.

I think I'd honestly prefer a 2nd paladin in a group if I wanted a dedicated rooter and stunner. They can at least provide better sustained damage over time with a good 2 handed weapon and a haste item. That should put in perspective just how useless they are.

Wizards may be a bit weak in the group game. I think they get a little more hate than they should but they're certainly not great. Warriors are literally poopoo in just about every aspect of the game besides raid tanking. I think if we're ignoring raids warrior takes the cake for most useless class in a general sense. Being able to port alone gives wizards an edge in usefulness. Warriors have no class defining utility or anything special they bring to the table in any sense outside of mitigation and defensive discs. Their mitigation is rendered largely useless when they're completely unable to hold aggro off of anyone. They also can't solo for dick without pretty extensive twinking. You listed 3 non raid things that wizards are good for. How many things are warriors good for?

[Jimjam]

100% agreed on putting in all the iksar ‘epics’ in a ‘fixed’ (‘as it should have / was intended to be’) server.

[Gloomlord]

Wizards may be a bit weak in the group game. I think they get a little more hate than they should but they're certainly not great. Warriors are literally poopoo in just about every aspect of the game besides raid tanking. I think if we're ignoring raids warrior takes the cake for most useless class in a general sense. Being able to port alone gives wizards an edge in usefulness. Warriors have no class defining utility or anything special they bring to the table in any sense outside of mitigation and defensive discs. Their mitigation is rendered largely useless when they're completely unable to hold aggro off of anyone. They also can't solo for dick without pretty extensive twinking. You listed 3 non raid things that wizards are good for. How many things are warriors good for?

You're right. I think wizards are a good 2nd place, though.

I know you've argued Druids are terrible, but at least they are versatile in the group game whilst still being great at solo. At least druids are fun to play...

[PlsNoBan]

You're right. I think wizards are a good 2nd place, though.

I know you've argued Druids are terrible, but at least they are versatile in the group game whilst still being great at solo. At least druids are fun to play...

Druids are "just alright" at everything they do imo. Whether or not they're fun is kinda subjective. I don't have a personal vendetta against druids or anything. I just don't personally enjoy playing a class that isn't truly GOOD at anything. Wizards might suck at a lot of things but they're pretty crucial for raids. Same with warriors. At least they have ONE aspect of the game they're super good/important for. Druids don't really have that anywhere. Their best claim to fame is being good at PLing better classes.

[Gloomlord]

Perhaps I shouldn't have brought "fun" into this as a measure of how good a class is.

[Jimjam]

Perhaps I shouldn't have brought "fun" into this as a measure of how good a class is.

No, I think you were right to. A class is only powerful on paper if it isn’t actually fun to play.

[PlsNoBan]

Perhaps I shouldn't have brought "fun" into this as a measure of how good a class is.

Fun is important but it's entirely subjective and not easily quantifiable. Some people love playing clerics and others will swear up and down that it's the most boring shit they've ever experienced. Hard to judge classes on "fun" factor when everyone has different ideas of what fun is ya know? That's all I'm saying

[Danth]

Druids don't really have that anywhere.

I'll argue druids are the best utility alt. This is not a downer on them; they're very good at handling most of the various "maintenance" tasks that EQ requires over time. They're great bank mules, great for transferring equipment around, good as EC brokers, good for helping new characters start out, excellent for porting around searching out various quest NPCs and such, and they can mostly do it without needing particularly high levels or very good equipment. Such jobs don't necessarily get much attention or discussion, but they're necessary for playing EQ for any length of time. After all that, druid's still at least competent for normal activity through most of the game as well. It's hard to go wrong having access to a druid, even if it isn't a main. Druid's the most popular class, year after year, and I suspect the above is largely why: It has its place.

Danth

[cd288]

Plus their circle spells for group FR CR buff are pretty nice. Every little bit helps if you don't have a ton of resist gear already, so that extra +5 compared to what other classes could provide is nice to have. Plus someone like a Cleric for example is going to be more preoccupied during a raid and doesn't need to be monitoring buffing peoples resistance.

[tadkins]

Wizards are amazing and fun as a class.

The only thing not fun about them is being denied for groups all the time. Being hated and shunned by others until they want a port, then you're immediately back to being yesterday's garbage to them.

[loramin]

If there was no raiding in the game warriors would be bar-none the weakest most useless class in the game. I don't think many people would dispute that. The problem is P99 cares more about being "classic" (or so they claim) than doing what makes sense or trying to balance anything. The issue for me is they pick and choose when to do things the classic way and arbitrarily make non classic changes for whatever reason and it's typically not the type of changes players are asking for or want to see that would actually improve the QoL of the server and it's players. Such as making warriors actually able to generate threat and tank prior to max lvl with some of the best threat gen weapons in the game. I wish they'd just pick a side of the fence and stick to it. Either be classic in every sense or abandon any notion that your ultimate goal is classic and just do things in the way that makes the most sense regardless of what is and is not classic.

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. We don't need non-classic improvements (though I certainly wouldn't mind seeing, say, a keychain on Blue): what we need is for the staff to double-down on their mission, and restore classicness to this place! We need classic nerfs to unclassic classes!

Part of the reason Enchanters are so much better than Warriors has nothing to do with classic EverQuest, and everything to do with the unclassic P99 mechanics. Just as one clear example, Channeling here is not classic: that makes Enchanters (unclassically) more powerful than they should be, because it's no big deal when that high DPS pet breaks charm here ... they can just channel a recharm.

If the staff just does what it says in the upper-left corner of our screens ("Classic EverQuest") Enchanters wouldn't be the unclassicly powerful class that they are here.

[PlsNoBan]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. We don't need non-classic improvements (though I certainly wouldn't mind seeing, say, a keychain on Blue): what we need is for the staff to double-down on their mission, and restore classicness to this place! We need classic nerfs to unclassic classes!

Part of the reason Enchanters are so much better than Warriors has nothing to do with classic EverQuest, and everything to do with the unclassic P99 mechanics. Just as one clear example, Channeling here is not classic: that makes Enchanters (unclassically) more powerful than they should be, because it's no big deal when that high DPS pet breaks charm here ... they can just channel a recharm.

If the staff just does what it says in the upper-left corner of our screens ("Classic EverQuest") Enchanters wouldn't be the unclassicly powerful class that they are here.

I don't disagree with you. Like I said I'd be fine either way. Go full classic or don't go classic at all. If you're gonna be not classic in a bunch of ways you might as well make not classic changes that people would enjoy. Otherwise just go full classic and change all the non classic p99 mechanics to match. Either way is honestly fine with me.