Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation [Archive]

loramin

07-19-2022, 05:20 PM

What level do you realistically plan to take it to, what level of gear will you start/end with and how/where will you play.

Jimjam asking the important questions. OP, if you're not planning to join a high-end raid guild and earn a bunch of really high-end gear, Wisdom is a less ideal choice, because Stamina is far more important for Shaman.

There are long posts explaining this further but in short, hit points keep us alive AND let us cast spells: mana just lets us cast spells. Personally, I can't think of any encounter where you fail by running out of mana because your starting mana total wasn't high enough ... certainly none that don't involve high-end raiding (ie. you might fail in a group or long solo fight because you didn't regenerate mana fast enough, but that's different from not having high enough max mana to start). +6 Dragons, PoM mobs, and all the really hard Shaman solos are about casting Cannabalize a ton during the fight, not starting with 50 more mana.

So Stamina rocks ... but you won't max stamina unless you have tons of high-end gear. I played Loramin on Blue for at least half a decade, yet I never got him true "high-end gear". He just has "best in slot" gear for a non-raider or casual guild raider ... which doesn't suck either (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Loramin): a full suit of TOV armor (except for a Vindi BP upgrade), Lodi Shield, +6 neck, Shawl, the Chardok ring, etc. I still have a few more things to acquire (eg. Spirit Wracked Cord) ...

... and yet, Loramin only has 175 stamina. That's 225 self-buffed, which is still more than 25 away from the cap. Also, I think I put most/all of my starting points into Stamina.

If you're not planning to join the Riot/Aftermath/Kingdom/Seal Team/whatever top-end guild, and do a ton of raiding, you'll be better off putting the points into Stamina. But if you do (and we're talking about not just getting to 60 and joining that guild, but also earning and spending tens of thousands of DKP on gear) then, as others have noted, Wisdom will be the harder stat to max than Stamina.

Mankong

07-19-2022, 05:37 PM

Jimjam asking the important questions. OP, if you're not planning to join a high-end raid guild and earn a bunch of really high-end gear, Wisdom is a less ideal choice, because Stamina is far more important for Shaman.

There are long posts explaining this further but in short, hit points keep us alive AND let us cast spells: mana just lets us cast spells. And personally, I can't think of any encounter where you fail by running out of mana because your starting mana total wasn't high enough ... certainly none that don't involve high-end raiding (ie. you might fail in a group or long solo fight because you didn't regenerate mana fast enough, but that's different from not having high enough max mana).

So Stamina rocks ... but you won't max stamina unless you have tons of high-end gear. I played Loramin on Blue for at least half a decade. He doesn't have "high-end gear", but his gear doesn't suck either (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Loramin): a full suit of TOV armor (except for a Vindi BP upgrade), Lodi Shield, +6 neck, Shawl, the Chardok ring, etc. I still have a few more things to acquire (eg. Spirit Wracked Cord), but largely Loramin has "best in slot" gear, for a non-raider or casual guild raider ...

... and Loramin has 175 stamina. That's 225 self-buffed, which is still more than 25 away from the cap. Also, I think I put most/all of my starting points into Stamina.

If you're not planning to join the Riot/Aftermath/Kingdom/Seal Team/whatever top-end guild, and do a ton of raiding, you'll be better off putting the points into Stamina. But if you do (and we're talking spending tens of thousands of DKP on gear here) then, as others have noted, Wisdom will be the harder stat to max than Stamina.

Thank you for your input, this touches on my concerns nicely :)
Yeah, I was planning on primarily soloing and adventuring, maybe the odd group here or there but I wasn’t exactly planning on raiding. I think I’ll go stamina then.

loramin

07-19-2022, 05:42 PM

Thank you for your input, this touches on my concerns nicely :)
Yeah, I was planning on primarily soloing and adventuring, maybe the odd group here or there but I wasn’t exactly planning on raiding. I think I’ll go stamina then.

Glad I could help. To be fair, people sometimes change their minds about raiding when they get "Shaman level 61" (ie. 60 + Torpor).

But even if you do, putting those points in stamina won't take away from your high-end raiding fun in any way ... unless the only way you can have fun is to have the maximum possible Sta/Wis when you do ;)

Mankong

07-19-2022, 05:56 PM

Glad I could help. To be fair, people sometimes change their minds about raiding when they get "Shaman level 61" (ie. 60 + Torpor).

But even if you do, putting those points in stamina won't take away from your high-end raiding fun in any way ... unless the only way you can have fun is to have the maximum possible Sta/Wis when you do ;)

I don’t mind it as much if I do give in to do raids hahaha, Thanks again!

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 02:14 AM

loramin

07-20-2022, 11:50 AM

Don’t listen to loramin. Wis is absolutely the way to go.

It’s going to be a difference of 75hp and very likely nearly 300 mana.

If you’re in pre raid gear, like loramin is in, most if not all 25 of that wis will be sub 200. Meaning 12mana per wis.

And what good will that extra mana do you in a high-end fight?

I don't mean that in a "do you even solo bro?" way ;) I truly mean: have you soloed WW dragons, or A4 PoM, or any similar tough spot (eg. I know people like to do efreetii in Sol B)? Because if we're talking about killing geonids or something, let's be honest: at 60, with Torpor, your gear basically doesn't matter.

But if you're doing something hard, what matters is "can you live long enough to land a slow" ... and more mana won't help at all with that (you'll run out of HP long before you run out of mana). Once the mob is slowed, you're set on mana (thanks to Torpor and Cannabalize), so your starting max is irrelevant.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 01:49 PM

And what good will that extra mana do you in a high-end fight?

I don't mean that in a "do you even solo bro?" way ;) I truly mean: have you soloed WW dragons, or A4 PoM, or any similar tough spot (eg. I know people like to do efreetii in Sol B)? Because if we're talking about killing geonids or something, let's be honest: at 60, with Torpor, your gear basically doesn't matter.

But if you're doing something hard, what matters is "can you live long enough to land a slow" ... and more mana won't help at all with that (you'll run out of HP long before you run out of mana). Once the mob is slowed, you're set on mana (thanks to Torpor and Cannabalize), so your starting max is irrelevant.

First let me say. None of the "tough spots" you listed are remotely hard. But that's besides the point. 300 mana is better than 75hp for a shaman. Objectively.

loramin

07-20-2022, 02:07 PM

First let me say. None of the "tough spots" you listed are remotely hard.

Where do you consider to be a "tough Shaman solo spot" then?

But that's besides the point. 300 mana is better than 75hp for a shaman. Objectively.

That's like saying "200 Dexterity is better than 75hp, objectively, because 200 is a bigger number than 75". You can say it, but it doesn't make it true: hit points are more useful to a Shaman than Dexterity ... or mana.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 02:21 PM

Where do you consider to be a "tough Shaman solo spot" then?

They just aren't hard. They have torpor as a minimum req. That's about it. And I really just mean that from a gear check perspective, cause clicking malo, slow, topor and canni doesn't take skill per se. But a tough solo would be something like Sebilite Protector. The ones you listed are things 99% of torpor shamans can do.

That's like saying "200 Dexterity is better than 75hp, objectively, because 200 is a bigger number than 75". You can say it, but it doesn't make it true: hit points are more useful to a Shaman than Dexterity ... or mana.

Two most important stats for a shaman are Hp and Mana.

There is a threshold where one can make the argument you're making. You speak of survival till slow. So then is 1hp better than 300mana? that 1hp could save you long enough for slow to land. Is it 2hp? 3hp? Where is the threshold? I believe it's higher than 75hp. I could see the argument for 200hp vs 300mana depending on the rest of your gear. 75hp isn't it.

Also with the disparity between 300mana to 75hp, have you considered that gives our shaman some flexibility in item selection?

loramin

07-20-2022, 02:29 PM

They just aren't hard. They have torpor as a minimum req. That's about it. And I really just mean that from a gear check perspective, cause clicking malo, slow, topor and canni doesn't take skill per se. But a tough solo would be something like Sebilite Protector. The ones you listed are things 99% of torpor shamans can do.

I'd think it'd be obvious, but I guess I have to say it: isn't that the OP more likely to do what "99% of other torpor shamans do" than what 1% of them do?

Two most important stats for a shaman are Hp and Mana.

There is a threshold where one can make the argument you're making. You speak of survival till slow. So then is 1hp better than 300mana? that 1hp could save you long enough for slow to land. Is it 2hp? 3hp? Where is the threshold? I believe it's higher than 75hp. I could see the argument for 200hp vs 300mana depending on the rest of your gear. 75hp isn't it.

Also with the disparity between 300mana to 75hp, have you considered that gives our shaman some flexibility in item selection?

You haven't actually addressed anything I've said. Again, do you actually solo as a shaman, and if so tell me: A) where do you fight, and B) wherever you fight, is the hard part living long enough to land a slow, or is the hard part having enough mana to win the fight?

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 02:39 PM

I'd think it'd be obvious, but I guess I have to say it: isn't that the OP more likely to do what "99% of other torpor shamans do" than what 1% of them do?

I literally said it was besides the point. So no, you don't have to say it, just read better next time.

You haven't actually addressed anything I've said. Again, do you actually solo as a shaman, and if so tell me: where do you fight, and when you fight something is the hard part living long enough to land a slow, or is the hard part having enough mana to win the fight?

So a fight against Sebilite Protector for example. You are going to want that mana. He has really high MR so root doesn't last more than a few seconds, and he could take 4-7 slow attempts on average. You won't be able to torpor and you really can't stand and take hits.

Anyway this is mostly irrelevant.

I think a better take away is that the 300 mana will give you flexibility in item selection that would yield you more overall Hp and Mana anyway.

Siberious

07-20-2022, 03:10 PM

loramin

07-20-2022, 04:29 PM

A barb shaman in group content gear + lower end raid gear in a maybe a couple slots can reach 205 sta unbuffed without putting all their starting points there. Just check out the wiki and filter it for +sta or +hp per slot and look through till you see group content/EC gear that has a solid balance.

It's seems Loramin chose not to get good group content gear in plenty of your slots, let alone +hp gear (if his magelo is still accurate, see below). So it makes sense that he can't self buff to max stamina. Which isn't a knock on him, gear how you want, but he could very easily get to 205 stamina unbuffed with a few modifications to his gear.

I'd be putting it in wisdom all day to start with 105 sta and 105 wisdom. It allows you to maintain a solid mana pool while focusing on +hp +sta gear primarily (plenty of it doesn't have +wis or +mana) that ideally has some +mana when you can without sacrificing too many hps. You will need an okay mana pool even when a mob is slowed so that you can maintain via canni dance, reslow, while also ideally swapping in another dot besides epic on occasion (Or can just JBB spam instead).

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Loramin

You're right: I'm not single-mindedly only going for Stamina gear ... and I don't think most Shaman are either.

There are clickies (goblin earing, epic, JBB), raw HP, FT, regen ... and yes, even mana and Wisdom. Most people are not just going to get +Stamina gear at the exclusion of all other gear ... which makes it all more likely they'll never hit the Stamina cap unless they do high-end raid targets.

Meanwhile, you've yet to suggest an encounter where more mana would help more than more HP. ArbiterBlixen at least did that:

So a fight against Sebilite Protector for example. You are going to want that mana. He has really high MR so root doesn't last more than a few seconds, and he could take 4-7 slow attempts on average. You won't be able to torpor and you really can't stand and take hits.

I've never soloed a Sebilite Protector, so maybe he's the one exception, but I still doubt it just based on rough math.

Let's go with the upper end of your estimate, and say it takes 7 slow attempts to slow the guy. Turgur's Insects takes 250 mana per cast, so that's 1750 mana. Presumably, you drop a Malo at the start for 350 more, for a total of 2100 mana. I did not focus on Wisdom/Mana on Loramin, but even so I have 2832 max mana unbuffed, which is enough to cast a malo plus seven slows, and still have 700+ mana left.

But, Malo has a 5 second cast time and Turgur's has a 3 second, so in that whole scenario we're talking 26 seconds of time the Shaman's being beaten on ... plus all the recast time I'm too lazy to calculate, plus more time from fizzles and interrupts ... let's just round to an even half a minute.

Per the wiki, Sebilite Protector hits for 260 - 555 "twice per round", which I guess means every tick/six seconds? So that's 407.5 * 2 = 815 average damage per tick, which means that in a 30-second fight he'll deal on average 4075 damage.

For reference, Loramin has 2392 max unbuffed HP, and I have at least somewhat tried to focus on HP. So again, I submit that more Stamina/HP is going to help you survive long enough to get the Protector slowed than having more Wisdom/Mana.

But to be fair, it sounds like you're mitigating damage with root, so I'd love to hear your (more accurate) numbers.

Anyway this is mostly irrelevant.

I think a better take away is that the 300 mana will give you flexibility in item selection that would yield you more overall Hp and Mana anyway.

As I just listed above, there's lots of things a Shaman should want in their gear. In my experience, all those things do more for a (non-raid) Shaman than having a larger mana pool ... except maybe Protector ;)

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 04:57 PM

So yeah, against prot you wouldn’t be face up trying to slow. With any level of gear a shaman would be rooting for slow attempts. Loramin would be dead before getting 3 slow attempts in. And likely wouldn’t be able to stabilize even after slow.

As far as mana vs hp, it doesn’t really have to be either or. As i mentioned it would provide you flexibility in item selection.

As an example, you use:

Runed Coldain Prayer Shawl, which yields 84 mana and 21hp

A random ec item like,

Chokidai Hide Pauldrons would yield 100hp

As you can see, even if you view mana and hp equally, Rune Coldain Prayer Shawl provides 105 points of stats. Greater than the pauldrons of just 100 points.

But with our starting stat allocation of 25sta vs 25wis the distribution looks like this:

Runed Coldain Prayer Shawl: 84mana and 96hp (chose sta)
Chokidai Hide Pauldrons: 300mana and 100hp (chose wis)

I know you said other stats matter too (Resists) and i agree, but the versatility extends to whatever stats you want. It’s just value that you can’t duplicate with a stamina selection.

Danth

07-20-2022, 04:59 PM

loramin

07-20-2022, 05:22 PM

I agree no serious player is going to totally focus on one statistic to the exclusion of all else. Stamina does buff easier. You can get 50 stamina from riotous health, and another 50 using alchemy if you really want to. Meanwhile a shaman's wisdom buff is only 10. Countering the truth that running out of health is worse than running out of mana is the other truth that any serious solo'er doing something really hard is going to have heal clicks like stinging wort at the ready to cover damage spikes and slow resist chains. Recovering mana in a hurry is rather more problematic.

As a rule a solo shaman will tend to favor armor and health, while a duo or grouper shaman will tend to favor mana pool. I prefer to achieve such focus through gearing. A barbarian shaman going 25 wisdom and 5 stamina at creation starts with 105 to both--a nice enough starting point that provides good flexibility for a player to gear himself with either focus and not hamstring himself should he change his mind later on.

Danth

Yeah, you're absolutely right: it really matters what you're planning to do with your Shaman, and it's not one size fits all, or even one size fits all non-raiders.

For instance, the wort pot thing is a perfect example: if you're talking about repeatedly farming something, using wort pots is prohibitively expensive, so you'd never want to burn through them except in a worst-case scenario. But if, on the other hand, you're trying to solo something that few others have ever soloed before, wort pots (and a bunch of other consumables) are all but required.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 05:24 PM

Yeah, you're absolutely right: it really matters what you're planning to do with your Shaman, and it's not one size fits all, or even one size fits all non-raiders.

While this is true to an extent, i hope you respond to my last post. Because i really do think you are doing a disservice to OP by suggesting 25sta.

Danth

07-20-2022, 05:27 PM

Yeah, you're absolutely right: it really matters what you're planning to do with your Shaman, and it's not one size fits all, or even one size fits all non-raiders..

Yep! And it's also true that these discussions are very much academic because, like we're both said elsewhere on this board, a player can't really break a shaman at character creation regardless of what race/statistic choices are made. The class is indeed that strong.

Danth

loramin

07-20-2022, 05:28 PM

While this is true to an extent, i hope you respond to my last post. Because i really do think you are doing a disservice to OP by suggesting 25sta.

Well for one thing I was sort of hoping you'd post some numbers about Sebilite Protector. I did a lot of work to show how HP > mana, and you responded with "well you have to root" without any further explanation of why you'd burn through mana before HP.

Meanwhile, you've provided exactly one example of a camp a non-raid shaman would do that might be better with mana over HP ... whereas most 60 Shaman fights (for gear few other classes can get ... I'm not talking about farming HQ ore in Permafrost obviously) involve slowing a mob and beating it down over time.

And in all those fights (Crypt, WW dragons, PoM A4, etc.) the hard part is living long enough to land slow. So no, I still don't see how 25 Stamina is a disservice.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 05:41 PM

Meanwhile, you've provided exactly one example of a camp a non-raid shaman would do that might be better with mana over HP ... whereas most 60 Shaman fights (for gear few other classes can get ... I'm not talking about farming HQ ore in Permafrost obviously) involve slowing a mob and beating it down over time.

And in all those fights (Crypt, WW dragons, PoM A4, etc.) the hard part is living long enough to land slow. So no, I still don't see how 25 Stamina is a disservice.

I feel you are either not understanding or not reading my posts. I have already said it does not come down to a choice between mana and hp, but rather a choice between varying levels of flexibility and ultimately higher min max potential at whatever level of gear you find yourself.

The point i was driving home was that by selecting wisdom you can have more mana and hp than a person who selects stamina.

As far as prot, i can coth you down if you’d like to see for yourself. You’ll find my estimation accurate.

loramin

07-20-2022, 05:47 PM

The point i was driving home was that by selecting wisdom you can have more mana and hp than a person who selects stamina.

No, you can have more mana ... and less HP.

Seriously, this is basic stuff: if you put more starting points into Stamina, you wind up with more HP than if you put them into Wisdom.

Siberious

07-20-2022, 05:51 PM

You're right: I'm not single-mindledly only going for Stamina gear ... and I don't think most Shaman are either.

There's clickies (goblin earing, epic, JBB), raw HP, FT, regen ... and yes, even mana and Wisdom. Most people are not just going to get +Stamina gear at the exclusion of all other gear ... which makes it all more likely they'll never hit the Stamina cap unless they do high-end raid targets.

Meanwhile, you've yet to suggest what encounter where more mana would help more than more HP. ArbiterBlixen at least (tried to) do that:

I've never soloed a Sebilite Protector, so maybe he's the one exception, but I still highly doubt it based on what you described.

Let's go with the upper end of your estimate, and say it takes 7 slow attempts to slow the guy. Turgur's Insects takes 250 mana per cast, so that's 1750 mana. Presumably, you drop a Malo at the start for 350 more, for a total of 2100 mana. I did not focus on Wisdom/Mana on Loramin, but even so I have 2832 max mana unbuffed, which is enough to cast a malo plus seven slows, and still have 700+ mana left.

But, Malo has a 5 second cast time and Turgur's has a 3 second, so in that whole scenario we're talking 26 seconds of time the Shaman's being beaten on ... plus all the recast time I'm too lazy to calculate, plus more time from fizzles and interrupts ... let's just round to an even half a minute.

Per the wiki, Sebilite Protector hits for 260 - 555 "twice per round", which I guess means every tick/six seconds? So that's 407.5 * 2 = 815 average damage per tick, which means that in a 30 second fight he'll deal on average 4075 damage.

For reference, Loramin has 2392 max HP, and I have at least somewhat tried to focus on HP. So again, I submit that more Stamina/HP is going to help you survive long enough to get the Protector slowed than having more Wisdom/Mana.

But to be fair, it sounds like you're mitigating damage with root, so I'd love to hear your (more accurate) numbers.

As I just listed above, there's lots of things a Shaman should want in their gear. In my experience, all those things do more for a (non-raid) Shaman than having a larger mana pool.

I don't need to suggest an encounter where you need more mana vs hps, I don't care about that argument and made no comments on it. I'm talking about best starting stats for a barb shaman. So that point is moot.

I also never said they should only gear +sta at exclusion of other stats. I said you can focus on good +sta +hp items that also ideally have good +mana when possible. Wisdom sub 200 gives you more mana per point than stamina does hps per point, period. So if you're looking for which stat is superior, there's your answer, especially on a non-raid geared or low end raid geared shaman that is likely to be low on wisdom unless they specifically are gearing for it (which usually is at the cost of +hp gear). I said despite this, if you're so inclined, you could still gear to get your stamina to 205 by selecting items that are flush with it.

Couple quick examples:
Chokidai Hide Pauldrons (+15sta +55hp)
Pearly Sarnak Bauble (+10 sta +35hp)

If you really can't see why +wisdom is a superior starting stat, I can make an entire Magelo for you to show how you could gear your barb shaman in non-high end raid gear and how you'd benefit from the +25 wisdom +5 sta combo more so than the +5 wis +25 sta combo.

I only mentioned your gearing choices because you tried to use your shaman as an example of why you'd want more +sta at char creation, and you have some gear choices that you could instantly make to remedy the problem you're claiming exists.

Star of Eyes can be quested for GCD (from inventory) to replace Goblin ear. Replace it with the above Bauble boom +10 sta +35hp. FT1 is essentially useless on a shaman in your own words as you praise Torpor/Canni (as you should). It's 10 mana per minute, just Canni once and sit and you're better off. Now replace your shawl with the above pauldrons and boom +8 sta +55hp -7 wis (good thing we're suggesting to put more into wisdom at char creation, right!). You've made big sta/hp gains without hamstring any other stats.

I could continue that with more slots, like a forest loop? +3 wis? Replace it even with just a 35hp/25 mana ear. Instant gains. Or if you don't care about AC (I would when you're killing blue con mobs though). You can get the -15ac +8sta +75hp Hammered Loop if you're so inclined.

TLDR - +wisdom sub 200 is more mana per point than +sta is hps per point period. If you're a non-high tiered raid geared barb shaman you'll benefit from bulking up on wisdom at char creation because 105 sta 105 wis puts you at a better starting point for gear selections. You're gonna struggle to find good +wisdom gear that also has big hps on it without going into higher end raid gear. There is plenty of good group or EC bought gear that is flush with +sta +hp however. Do yourself a favor and bulk up on the +wisdom up front.

loramin

07-20-2022, 06:18 PM

I don't need to suggest an encounter where you need more mana vs hps, I don't care about that argument and made no comments on it. I'm talking about best starting stats for a barb shaman.

"best starting stats for a barb shaman" ... to do what?

Did you just completely skip over Danth's post? And as for the rest, I never said Loramin had perfect gear; I said he was fairly representative (if not a bit on the high side) of a non-raid 60 shaman ... and he is. So I don't get the long tirade on what I could do with my gear.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 06:34 PM

"best starting stats for a barb shaman" ... to do what?

To have more gear flexibility and better overall stats than the guy who thought it was a good idea to choose 25stam.

Siberious

07-20-2022, 06:58 PM

"best starting stats for a barb shaman" ... to do what?

Did you just completely skip over Danth's post? And as for the rest, I never said Loramin had perfect gear; I said he was fairly representative (if not a bit on the high side) of a non-raid 60 shaman ... and he is. So I don't get the long tirade on what I could do with my gear.

I don't need to address Danth, we're pretty much on the same page. Our reasons for why we agree on the 105wis 105 sta starting stats are very similar (better split for gear selections, I'm taking it a step further and showing how doing more +Wis at char creation let's you use more bulky +sta/HP combos on gear later, something you also keep noting, hps > Mana. While also not hamstringing yourself to be low wisdom later). So again, I don't understand that response from you. Please re-read our reasons why.

I didn't go on a tirade. I gave clear examples of suboptimal gear choices that you made that you're referencing for why you think +sta is better than +Wis at char creation. I also gave solutions that help fix the +sta to 205 unbuffed issue by illustrating how it's much easier to get +sta+HP in bulk on non-raid gear than +wis+HP. This was all helpful information for the OP, nothing about it was a triade.

You've listed no concrete examples of why +25 sta +5 wis is superior to +25 Wis and +5 sta other than referencing your own toon who has too many suboptimal gear choices to be a good reference, and saying HP > Mana so +sta is better (which isn't true if you can get to 205 without putting 20 extra starting stats in it). You'll never cap wisdom self buffed on a non-high end raid geared shaman by contrast, unless you're sacrificing a lot of hps.

In the end this is all min/max and you may not notice it in every day play. But for sake of fleshing out the best possible stat allocation in this case, +25 wis +5 sta will win out. You can prioritize sta/hps on gear and get extra mana from the extra starting wisdom on top of it.

loramin

07-20-2022, 07:41 PM

I don't need to address Danth, we're pretty much on the same page.

No, you're clearly not. Danth's entire point was that not all Shaman are the same.

Some solo tough mobs repeatedly to farm loot. Some solo really tough mobs for the thrill of doing it. Some solo boring stuff (eg. they farm Droga). Some group. And some even raid.

And even between those there are differences: we've already noted that soloing Sebilite Protectors is (or at least might be) noticeably different from soloing Sebilis Crypt or A4.

But you said:

I'm talking about best starting stats for a barb shaman.

... as if there was one "best answer for all Barbarian Shaman".

There is no "one best for everyone": you can be arguing apples are best, and I'm arguing oranges are, and neither of us are wrong because we're talking about different fruit.

So again: best for who?

You've listed no concrete examples of why +25 sta +5 wis is superior to +25 Wis and +5 sta ...

Actually, I've said repeatedly that Stamina/HP keeps you alive, Wisdom/mana doesn't, and in all the fights I listed the hard part is surviving long enough to land a slow. None of that has anything to do with my toon, who was simply an example.

So IF we're talking about a Shaman who plans to kill WW Dragons, or farm thrones in PoM, or farm Crypt in Seb late at night (when no groups are there), or do any similar fight, more HP is best for them.

But if you truly think you can hit max Stamina AND still have all the other things a Shaman would want (including lots of +HP, clickies, regen, ...) AND you can do it without high-end raid gear ... just make a Magelo and show it.

Siberious

07-20-2022, 07:55 PM

No, you're clearly not. Danth's entire point was that not all Shaman are the same.

Some solo tough mobs repeatedly to farm loot. Some solo really tough mobs for the thrill of doing it. Some solo boring stuff (eg. they farm Droga). Some group. And some even raid.

But you said:

... as if there was one best answer for all Shaman ... completely ignoring everything Danth wrote.

I can't help you then. You keep changing the conversation and ignoring 95% of what I say. You went from saying HPs > Mana so +sta is clearly better, when I refuted that you said, well HPs isn't all you want with gear, when I refuted that you kept spamming over and over nonsense about how I'm ignoring Danth, etc (spoiler, I'm not).

I'll keep it very simple for you. I'd maintain regardless of what you want to do with your barb shaman 105 sta 105 wis base is best for flexibility should you change your mind later. Want to go big Wis/Mana? Great, you're ready for it. What to go big sta/hps? Great you're ready for it. This way gear is there to get you to either goal either way.

Your main claim was HP HP HP. Now you're shifting Convo to "Danth said this and you're ignoring it!". And now mid response you've edited your post to "Well there isn't 1 size fits all approach". It's almost like you are constantly changing your view to dodge answering any of the actual points I'm discussing. Makes it impossible to have a conversation with you. My view is consistent, hope the OP found it useful. ✌️

loramin

07-20-2022, 07:58 PM

I can't help you then. You keep changing the conversation and ignoring 95% of what I say. You went from saying HPs > Mana so +sta is clearly better, when I refuted that you said, well HPs isn't all you want with gear, when I refuted that you kept spamming over and over nonsense about how I'm ignoring Danth, etc (spoiler, I'm not).

I'll keep it very simple for you. I'd maintain regardless of what you want to do with your barb shaman 105 sta 105 wis base is best for flexibility should you change your mind later. Want to go big Wis/Mana? Great, you're ready for it. What to go big sta/hps? Great you're ready for it. This way gear is there to get you to either goal either way.

Your main claim was HP HP HP. Now you're shifting Convo to "Danth said this and you're ignoring it!". And now mid response you've edited your post to "Well there isn't 1 size fits all approach". It's almost like you are constantly changing your view to dodge answering any of the actual points I'm discussing. Makes it impossible to have a conversation with you. My view is consistent, hope the OP found it useful. ✌️

So your entire argument amounts to "pick Wisdom, it's flexible" ... and it will let you do ___________? What? What can you do with more Wisdom that you can't do with more HP?

And also, acknowledging that there wasn't one right answer for everyone (while still maintaining "for the fights I'm talking about, HP is best", the same as I have previously) is not inconsistent in any way.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 08:16 PM

So your entire argument amounts to "pick Wisdom, it's flexible" ... and it will let you do ___________? What? What can you do with more Wisdom that you can't do with more HP?

And also, acknowledging that there wasn't one right answer for everyone (while still maintaining "for the fights I'm talking about, HP is best", the same as I have previously) is not inconsistent in any way.

I already laid it out for you. Swapping a single item in your kit, plus starting stats and you come out waaay ahead.

As an example, you use:

Runed Coldain Prayer Shawl, which yields 84 mana and 21hp

A random ec item like,

Chokidai Hide Pauldrons would yield 100hp

As you can see, even if you view mana and hp equally, Rune Coldain Prayer Shawl provides 105 points of stats. Greater than the pauldrons of just 100 points.

But with our starting stat allocation of 25sta vs 25wis the distribution looks like this:

Runed Coldain Prayer Shawl: 84mana and 96hp (chose sta)
Chokidai Hide Pauldrons: 300mana and 100hp (chose wis)

I know you said other stats matter too (Resists) and i agree, but the versatility extends to whatever stats you want. It’s just value that you can’t duplicate with a stamina selection.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 08:38 PM

Go WIS for your starting stat.

STA is generally easier to cap with Velious era gear.

You get 1-2 STA buffs (Riotous Health and Hammer of the Dragonborn clickie). You can buff WIS by 10 points with bear illusion, but that's it.

At level 60 you get 3HP per STA, so the starting stats only shake out to an extra 75 HP, assuming you aren't capped. 25 WIS is going to be 150-250ish mana depending on if you are over 200 WIS. 2HP = 1 mana in terms of cannibalize, so having that extra mana means you are saving more HP during an encounter due to potentially using less cannibalizes before you run out of mana. 150 mana = 300hp not cannibalized.

Again, STA is generally easier to cap than WIS, so you will be under 255 WIS more often. My Shaman with raid gear only has 200ish WIS. This is because good Shaman gear is typically more tanky, and doesn't have caster stats, such as Fungi Tunic.

Finally, if 75HP was the difference between life and death in an encounter, the problem wasn't your starting stats.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 08:51 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 08:55 PM

You’re 200ish wis in balanced raid gear. If OP has balanced non raid gear, he should be well under 200 wis. Most of the 25Wis will be 12mana per.

Yup, and I am capped on STA, so WIS is the only stat I can increase now. Having that extra 25 STA wouldn't help me at all.

loramin

07-20-2022, 09:18 PM

Go WIS for your starting stat.

STA is generally easier to cap with Velious era gear.

You get 1-2 STA buffs (Riotous Health and Hammer of the Dragonborn clickie).

Do you even read the conversation before participating? This is a discussion of non-high-end raiding Shaman ... and you use an item from VP?

Everyone wants to argue with me, but no one wants to talk about what a non-guild (or at least non-top-end-guild) Shaman actually does with their time, and why more HP or more Mana would help them do it better.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 09:23 PM

Do you even read the conversation before participating? This is a discussion of non-high-end raiding Shaman ... and you use an item from VP?

I did read the conversation, you are just being stubborn and wrong:) Starting stats only really matter endgame due to stat scaling. 25 STA basically gives you nothing for the first 30 levels or so. The WIS is still going to give you more benefit even at lower levels. If 30HP was the difference between life and death at level 30ish, the problem wasn't your starting stats. More mana = less canni = more HP saved, even at lower levels. And pre-canni you are basically getting no HP from STA.

loramin

07-20-2022, 09:24 PM

I did read the conversation, you are just being stubborn and wrong:) Starting stats only really matter endgame due to stat scaling. 25 STA basically gives you nothing for the first 30 levels or so. The WIS is still going to give you more benefit even at lower levels. If 30HP was the difference between life and death at level 30ish, the problem wasn't your starting stats. More mana = less canni = more HP saved, even at lower levels. And pre-canni you are basically getting no HP from STA.

So what's "endgame" for a non-raid Shaman? Again, what are you thinking when you imagine "a non-raid Shaman" playing EQ?

I'm imagining that Shaman farming plat for upgrades, because that's the only way to get upgrades without raiding. I imagine them farming the places I keep repeating because they are uniquely good for Shaman and not for other classes (Crypt, WW Dragons, PoM A4, etc.). One other person in the thread imagines them soloing Sebilitie Protectors.

We have to be on the same page with what we're talking about or we're just talking past each other.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 09:26 PM

So what's "endgame" for a non-raid Shaman? Again, what are you thinking when you imagine "a non-raid Shaman" playing EQ?

Level 60. For most casuals they never even get to 60. Stats scale with level, so the more casual (lower level probably) you are, the less they matter anyway. WIS scales better at all levels compared to STA for a Shaman, so you are still getting more bang for your buck. Again, more mana = less HP cannibalized.

loramin

07-20-2022, 09:29 PM

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 09:30 PM

I'm imagining that Shaman farming plat for upgrades, because that's the only way to get upgrades without raiding. I imagine them farming the places I keep repeating because they are uniquely good for Shaman and not for other classes (Crypt, WW Dragons, PoM A4, etc.). One other person in the thread imagines them soloing Sebilitie Protectors.

Why are you setting up weird little straw men?

I never imagined them soloing Sebilite Protectors. You asked me what I thought was a tough solo for a shaman and I answered, while also noting it's lack of relevancy.

loramin

07-20-2022, 09:32 PM

P.S. But also (re: <60), when XPing max mana truly doesn't matter. I never died, not even once, in my entire journey to 60, because I started at max mana, used it all up, and died at the end for the lack of just a bit more mana.

However, I did die (many times) from fights where I started at max HP, and then died because I couldn't gate out fast enough, or root fast enough, or whatever ... and a few more HP might have given me time to get that last survival spell off.

loramin

07-20-2022, 09:33 PM

Why are you setting up weird little straw men?

I never imagined them soloing Sebilite Protectors. You asked me what I thought was a tough solo for a shaman and I answered, while also noting it's lack of relevancy.

No, I was trying to give your point credit ... but it seems even you agree that non-raid Shaman (who don't group or duo or do whatever else ... again, there are no absolutes for "all Shaman") are generally going to be doing the cash farming camps that I listed.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 09:35 PM

No, I was trying to give your point credit ... but it seems even you agree that non-raid Shaman (who don't group or duo or do whatever else ... again, there are no absolutes for "all Shaman") are going to be doing the cash farming camps that I listed.

How does it give me credit? You claimed I imagined something I didn't imagine in a patronizing way. Thanks I guess?

loramin

07-20-2022, 09:38 PM

How does it give me credit? You claimed I imagined something I didn't imagine in a patronizing way. Thanks I guess?

Before I was saying "Shaman mainly do these camps and at them HP > mana". Then you came along and said "here's a camp where mana matters more" (I remain suspicious, but I've never done Protectors so I've deferred to your greater experience there for now).

After you made your point, I started taking pains to qualify my point to say "not all Shaman" (ie. not all Shaman solo the places I listed, and the ones that solo other ones like Protector maybe would benefit from more mana). I've listed your example, of Protectors, as a counterpoint to my own. Because again, not all Shaman are the same, and if I want to be accurate and correct and not just a forum blowhard, I want to be on the same page with people I'm talking to, and that means not claiming some camp I've never done is better with more HP.

But that ... repeating your point over and over as a counter to my own ... is patronizing you, I guess?

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 09:47 PM

Before I was saying "Shaman mainly do these camps and at them HP > mana". Then you came along and said "here's a camp where mana matters more" (I remain suspicious, but I've never done Protectors so I've deferred to your greater experience there for now).

After you made your point, I started taking pains to qualify my point to say "not all Shaman" (ie. not all Shaman solo the places I listed, and the ones that solo other ones like Protector maybe would benefit from more mana). I've listed your example, of Protectors, as a counterpoint to my own. Because again, not all Shaman are the same, and if I want to be accurate and correct and not just a forum blowhard, I want to be on the same page with people I'm talking to, and that means not claiming some camp I've never done is better with more HP.

But that ... repeating your point over and over as a counter to my own ... is patronizing you, I guess?

Yeah, thanks for painstakingly misrepresenting me.

loramin

07-20-2022, 09:50 PM

What are you even talking about? Can you just quote where I patronize or misrepresent you so I at least know what terrible thing I've said?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 09:58 PM

Before 60 no one is maxing any stats, so I'be been assuming the conversation starts at 60: personally I'm not even trying to discuss <60 here. And when it comes to 60 (as I keep repeating), in all the fights I've listed what's hard isn't running out of mana ... it's running out of life before slow lands.

So are you thinking of different fights, or are you disagreeing and arguing that in A4/Crypt/WW Dragons/etc. the hard part is running out of mana?

Ok, so if we start at 60 then my points you were complaining about stand lol. Being level 60 is endgame, and people do decide to raid even though they say they won't. I am not sure why you are straddling this really thin line to try and be right.

WIS basically no matter what. Pre 60 it doesn't matter, and at 60 you will probably be at STA cap or close to it. If 75HP is the difference between life and death, the problem wasn't your starting stats at level 60. 75HP is half of one melee attack.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 09:59 PM

So what's "endgame" for a non-raid Shaman? Again, what are you thinking when you imagine "a non-raid Shaman" playing EQ?

I'm imagining that Shaman farming plat for upgrades, because that's the only way to get upgrades without raiding. I imagine them farming the places I keep repeating because they are uniquely good for Shaman and not for other classes (Crypt, WW Dragons, PoM A4, etc.). One other person in the thread imagines them soloing Sebilitie Protectors.

We have to be on the same page with what we're talking about or we're just talking past each other.

I don't imagine them soloing Sebilite Protectors. Again that was brought up in response to a question of yours and I noted that it wasn't relevant.

So a fight against Sebilite Protector for example. You are going to want that mana. He has really high MR so root doesn't last more than a few seconds, and he could take 4-7 slow attempts on average. You won't be able to torpor and you really can't stand and take hits.

Anyway this is mostly irrelevant.

The reason i call this a straw man is because you were arguing that the rest of us weren't evaluating the situation appropriately as it pertains to OP. And you have me set up like a straw man.

straw man
/ˌstrô ˈman/
noun

1. an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Danth

07-20-2022, 10:20 PM

So your entire argument amounts to "pick Wisdom, it's flexible" ... and it will let you do ___________? What? What can you do with more Wisdom that you can't do with more HP?

Well, if you want to talk about absolutes, it's nothing in either case because, as I know you agree, ultimately 20 points of a starting stat aren't going to break a character. My wife's shaman comes very close to the theoretical level-60-forever non-raider.....but I didn't want to use it as an example because we mostly duo, so she's set up more for that job which makes it less applicable for a dedicated solo'er. Her character performs extremely well as a duo partner with my Shadowknight and the ~3300 mana pool is nice, but if I wanted to solo on a Shaman I would recommend a somewhat different gear setup as her health is average and her armor rating probably a little below average. You could trade 500-odd mana down and still have plenty for normal non-trophy-kill shaman type stuff and have a useful improvement to health and especially armor rating. Since Torpor heals a fixed value I tend to think the solo shaman might be advised to focus on AC even above raw hit points, and at the very least definitely not ignore it.

In general the 25 wis / 5 stamina allocation is pretty safe for just about anyone so I'd recommend it unless someone has a very specific reason to do otherwise. I can see some specific individuals doing fine with a more stamina-focused setup.

Danth

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 10:22 PM

The problem is 75HP just isn't much life when dealing with an unslowed mob. At level 60 that is half of one attack or less. You are maybe gaining 1 extra second of being alive if you were lucky enough for your AC to reduce the damage by half. Getting down to 75 HP should be the rare exception, for when you get really unlucky resists. If you are consistently getting down to 100ish HP in a fight, the fight is just too hard for you. A bit more HP won't solve the issue because an unlucky double attack will still kill you.

And again, you WILL be STA capped at some point when you are 60, so you lose all the benefits anyway. WIS is still useful, because Shaman spells are expensive and an unlucky string of resists will also kill you. Getting 150-250 extra mana from the 25 WIS (which you are less likely to be capped on) means you have enough mana for a gate/root when things don't go your way, which will save you more than 75HP. And again, you can use that extra mana to potentially cannibalize a bit less when at low HP.

Either way it's not going to make much of a difference at level 60. The reason why WIS is superior is simply due to how stats line up with gear/buffs in this era. It's just easier to cap STA on a Shaman.

Danth

07-20-2022, 10:28 PM

And again, you WILL be STA capped at some point when you are 60

My wife's had a level 60 Shaman for a decade or so. She is not nor ever has fully capped stamina. When does this automatic stat-capping come into play?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 10:32 PM

My wife's had a level 60 Shaman for a decade or so. She is not nor ever has fully capped stamina. When does this automatic stat-capping come into play?

It's generally easier to cap STA than WIS. From your description it sounds like you and your wife aren't going super hard on acquiring gear, so I wouldn't expect her stats to be capped.

The point is that you will cap it if you progress your gear.

If you aren't progressing your gear, then starting stats don't matter, because you have a comfort zone already with whatever you are doing. Obviously your wife has enough stats to do all the content that she wants to experience.

Danth

07-20-2022, 10:34 PM

The point is that you will cap it if you progress your gear.

Only if you like to hang out in temple veeshan, and not everyone cares for that. Otherwise it's by no means a given, depending on how strongly you're willing to compromise elsewhere. I do agree stamina is the easier of the two for a shaman to cap out if he wants to cap something, but a player who doesn't want to do high-end raids is more or less going to have to pick how far he cares to go with either and prioritize.

Danth

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 10:38 PM

Danth

07-20-2022, 10:45 PM

She'd be capped if she was an ogre, or even if she had gone heavy stamina at creation; as it is she's close enough and this game is very much a case of "good enough" being actually good enough. There's only so much content to do and about none of it actually requires fully min-maxed stuff. That's more of a hobbyist pursuit, but such a point was also outside the original poster's question range. That we agree that a wis focus is generally preferable for most shaman players, although we come from opposite directions, should probably illustrate that it is indeed a pretty safe bet for most folks, even if there's different ways to do it should some individual want to do so.

When I was asking around awhile back nobody would sell a vindicator chestplate for any price. Stuff like that ebbs and flows with time.

Danth

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 10:45 PM

Only if you like to hang out in temple veeshan, and not everyone cares for that. Otherwise it's by no means a given, depending on how strongly you're willing to compromise elsewhere. I do agree stamina is the easier of the two for a shaman to cap out if he wants to cap something, but a player who doesn't want to do high-end raids is more or less going to have to pick how far he cares to go with either and prioritize.

Danth

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Danthswife

Here’s a magelo I set up to see what a wis build would look like. I swapped the ears out for the chardok ears cause i was well over wis cap. Hit 196 stamina with only two dedicated stamina items (ears). She’s rocking a vindi bp too, and although that may not be something you have access to, it more common than not on a shammy main. But the point is, if stamina cap is your goal you can hit it easily. So if you’re really wondering when she’ll hit cap, It will happen when she devotes any minor effort towards doing so. Oh also this is a barbarian. Trolls and ogres would be over sta cap with this setup.

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 10:48 PM

Whoops, i forgot othmir prexus totem, i was originally building it with some of loramin’s items in mind as well. But sounds like that’s in your price range anyway.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-20-2022, 10:51 PM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Danthswife

Here’s a magelo I set up to see what a wis build would look like. I swapped the ears out for the chardok ears cause i was well over wis cap. Hit 196 stamina with only two dedicated stamina items (ears). She’s rocking a vindi bp too, and although that may not be something you have access to, it more common than not on a shammy main. But the point is, if stamina cap is your goal you can hit it easily. So if you’re really wondering when she’ll hit cap, It will happen when she devotes any minor effort towards doing so. Oh also this is a barbarian. Trolls and ogres would be over sta cap with this setup.

Thanks for doing the magelo, was going to do one hehe. Yeah it's not hard to get 200STA with "casual" gear, even as a Barb.

Danth

07-20-2022, 10:52 PM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Danthswife

Here’s a magelo I set up to see what a wis build would look like.

Neat experiment. Compared to the wife's character I think it has about the same mana and slightly less health but probably a little higher armor rating. That it has perhaps a little less health but higher stamina serves as a reminder that HP are HP regardless of the source they come from--raw HP items (like the real character's matchless mantle) are just as nice even without the raw stat boost.

(Edit) could you change the profile name? Wouldn't want people assuming I made it.

Danth

ArbiterBlixen

07-20-2022, 11:12 PM

Neat experiment. Compared to the wife's character I think it has about the same mana and slightly less health but probably a little higher armor rating. That it has perhaps a little less health but higher stamina serves as a reminder that HP are HP regardless of the source they come from--raw HP items (like the real character's matchless mantle) are just as nice even without the raw stat boost.

(Edit) could you change the profile name? Wouldn't want people assuming I made it.

Danth

Sorry, do you know how to do that?

Edit, now loramin’s expertise is needed

Siberious

07-20-2022, 11:24 PM

Another Magelo for reference. This is all EC buyable gear at 20k or less per slot (most of it is far less than that, just noting since a few items can get that high). There are plenty of quest items a non-raid shaman could do to really fill it out and have a solid set of gear. This is with 105 sta 105 wisdom at char creation. I was able to get to 206 stamina and my wisdom still falls plenty short of 200 (using 200 as reference since the amount of mana per wisdom drops at 200).

As illustrated a non-raid geared shaman can easily cap stamina with buyable EC gear. With questing more items over time (Scout for Talisman of Benvolence, Circlet of the Falinkan, etc) you could get better raw hp/mana items and increase your wisdom a fair bit. It also doesn't account for more expensive MQs like SS BP/Legs, which a solo/small group non-raid shaman could farm plat for and buy eventually, which really would give the build a boost. I also left JBB in since it's probably the best bang for your buck DPS option on a non-raid shaman, since your gear options might not always allow for sustaining mana for your expensive dots while reslowing/torping/canni dance, etc.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BarbShaman

JDAm0nk

07-21-2022, 09:20 AM

Do you even read the conversation before participating? This is a discussion of non-high-end raiding Shaman ... and you use an item from VP?

Everyone wants to argue with me, but no one wants to talk about what a non-guild (or at least non-top-end-guild) Shaman actually does with their time, and why more HP or more Mana would help them do it better.

Before 60 no one is maxing any stats, so I'be been assuming the conversation starts at 60: personally I'm not even trying to discuss <60 here.

Jesus wept...

loramin

07-21-2022, 10:54 AM

Well, if you want to talk about absolutes, it's nothing in either case because, as I know you agree, ultimately 20 points of a starting stat aren't going to break a character.

I'm not "talking absolutes", and I fully agree you could put all points in Charisma and still be perfectly happy playing that Shaman for a decade ... but we are theorycrafting on what's best for a non-high-end raid shaman here.

I tend to think the solo shaman might be advised to focus on AC even above raw hit points, and at the very least definitely not ignore it.

I won't disagree ... but you don't have a choice of raw hit points or stamina with your starting points, only Wisdom or Stamina.

I don't imagine them soloing Sebilite Protectors. Again that was brought up in response to a question of yours and I noted that it wasn't relevant.

...

The reason i call this a straw man is because you were arguing that the rest of us weren't evaluating the situation appropriately as it pertains to OP.

To be a straw man, it has to (falsely) support y argument. Saying "maybe not all Shaman do the camps I listed, because someone mentioned another camp" was in no way a part of my argument ... it was weakening my argument.

If all Shaman just did the camps I described, my argument would be stronger, so saying "there might be other places where my argument doesn't apply" is not a straw man strengthening my argument!

Try to actually understand what a logical fallacy is before you accuse people of using one next time.

Sorry, do you know how to do that?

Edit, now loramin’s expertise is needed

The Magelos are special, so I don't think they can be renamed, only deleted and remade. I deleted Danth's Wife for you ;-)

Another Magelo for reference ...
https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BarbShaman

FINALLY! This has been what I've been trying to show here!

That shaman has 69 less AC than Loramin (Danth was just talking about the importance of AC to a Shaman). They have more than 200 mana less than Loramin (throughout this thread everyone keeps insisting max mana matters). They have 27 less MR and significantly less other resists, no regen, no FT ...

... and they're "done". This Shaman has played for years to get all that gear, and now at the end they have nowhere to go (without losting stamina).

So yes, if you abandon everything else and just focus on Stamina, and devote your entire Shaman career to getting Stamina gear, at the very end you might, maybe max out your Stamina.

But for the entire time you spent leveling up, and the entire time you spent at 60 farming plat for Torpor, and then the entire time you spent acquiring gear with Torpor ... more HP would have been more helpful than mana, for reasons I've repeatedly endlessly, and no one has in any way confronted.

ArbiterBlixen

07-21-2022, 11:02 AM

To be a straw man, it has to (falsely) support y argument. Saying "maybe not all Shaman do the camps I listed, because someone mentioned another camp" was in no way a part of my argument ... it was weakening my argument.

If all Shaman just did the camps I described, my argument would be stronger, so saying "there might be other places where my argument doesn't apply" is not a straw man strengthening my argument!

Try to actually understand what a logical fallacy is before you accuse people of using one next time.

That's not the argument you were trying to strengthen or weaken at the time. That line was included specifically to paint us as having an inappropriate scope in regards to OP's needs. Anyway, let's stop talking about this.

The Magelos are special, so I don't think they can be renamed, only deleted and remade. I deleted Danth's Wife for you ;-)

Thank you, appreciate it.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 11:23 AM

So yes, if you abandon everything else and just focus on Stamina, and devote your entire Shaman career to getting Stamina gear, at the very end you might, maybe max out your Stamina.

But for the entire time you spent leveling up, and the entire time you spent at 60 farming plat for Torpor, and then the entire time you spent acquiring gear with Torpor ... more HP would have been more helpful than mana, for reasons I've repeatedly endlessly, and no one has in any way confronted.

Neither of those Magelos are very hard to get, especially if you are dedicated enough to reach 60.

No, the HP wouldn't have helped your journey. 75HP won't save you from anything. Neither will the mana. WIS is harder to cap, so it is the better stat.

You have been confronted and proven wrong, you just can't admit it.

loramin

07-21-2022, 11:59 AM

You have been confronted and proven wrong, you just can't admit it.

So, I keep making the same points, and you keep ignoring them and not offering any evidence to the contrary ... but you've won the discussion because you declare it so. I bow down to your superior EQ knowledge. :rolleyes:

You still haven't shown evidence that mana is more valuable than HP, either before 60 or at 60, and you still haven't shown evidence that a real non-raid Shaman (who cares about more than just maxxing Stamina) would ever hit the cap before they've run out of reasons to play the character,

You someone else made a Magelo of a contrived Stamina-only Shaman (who had to have a complete set of non-raiding gear in order to hit the cap) and declared yourself the victor. Great, you "won" ... what?

I'm a human trying to have a conversation to answer the OP's question: converse with me, talk about what I'm talking about ... don't chime in with these two sentence sound bites that ignore the points I've made (your VP hammer one ... in a thread about non-raid shaman ... was the most embarrassing) and declare you've won the imaginary battle in your head.

ArbiterBlixen

07-21-2022, 12:15 PM

It's objectively true that it's harder to get 300 mana worth of gear than 75hp.

If OP is a smart person that wants balance among their valued stats, choosing wisdom as a starting stat covers far more ground in that pursuit than stamina does.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 12:22 PM

So, I keep making the same points, and you keep ignoring them and not offering any evidence to the contrary ... but you've won the discussion because you declare it so. I bow down to your superior EQ knowledge. :rolleyes:

You still haven't shown evidence that mana is more valuable than HP, either before 60 or at 60, and you still haven't shown evidence that a real non-raid Shaman (who cares about more than just maxxing Stamina) would ever hit the cap before they've run out of reasons to play the character,

You someone else made a Magelo of a contrived Stamina-only Shaman (who had to have a complete set of non-raiding gear in order to hit the cap) and declared yourself the victor. Great, you "won" ... what?

I'm a human trying to have a conversation: converse with me, talk about what I'm talking about ... don't chime in with a two sentence sound bite that ignores every point I've made and declare you've won the (imaginary) battle in your head.

I find it funny you are complaining that I am not typing enough, when you often complain I type too much. The problem isn't the length of the reply, you just don't like people disagreeing with you.

We have shown you evidence. Those two Magelos are examples of how STA is easy to cap with gear that isn't hard to get. Those Magelos aren't "contrived" item lists, those are pretty good items for Shamans, and they are not hard to get. Please show us a Magelo of what you think a "casual level 60 Shaman" looks like.

OP did NOT ask "what is better, HP or Mana"? OP asked about "Solo Barbarian Stat Allocation". In that case, the answer comes down to which is better 25 STA, or 25 WIS? When asking these questions, you simply need to look at how stats are distributed on gear in the era you are playing in. The best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to max. It's really that simple. The reason for this is because once you hit the cap, you aren't benefiting from the stat.

If you ever got down to 75HP in a level 60 encounter, the problem wasn't your starting stats. The problem was with the encounter. You got bad luck, tried to fight something too hard, or aren't skilled enough. Remember, we are only talking about 75HP at best. It isn't like you can increase your starting stats somehow later in the game. That is why the discussion is NOT "what is better, HP or Mana?", because the numbers are always fixed, and will deteriorate based on if you cap the stat.

Both 75HP and 150-250ish Mana will slightly increase your chances of survival at level 60. Both can keep you from dying, but the chances are small in either case. Either choice isn't going to make or break your experience, so there is no reason to overthink it. Pick the stat that is hardest to cap so you can benefit from the stat more often.

EDIT: Finally, I am not sure why you are fixated on my mentioning of Hammer of the Dragonborn. My point was that Shamans have more STA buffs than WIS buffs. It's really that simple. I still don't have a Hammer of the Dragonborn by the way. You don't NEED one to cap STA, as shown by the Magelos posted earlier.

loramin

07-21-2022, 12:35 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 12:49 PM

It's not about how much you type, it's about engaging in a conversation and not just trying to win imaginary battles in your head.

As for the rest, you're still dodging my points, but at least you're trying to engage now which is a nice improvement. So let's focus on my points. 1) If it's nearly impossible for a non-raid Shaman to max Stamina (without doing a completely unrealistic all-Stamina-focused build AND that build being completely realized ... ie. the Shaman is at the end of their career) ... then it doesn't matter which stat is easier to cap.

2) If you aren't hitting the cap, then it truly comes down to which is more valuable, mana or HP ... and HP is more valuable. When "You got bad luck" (as you put it), you don't want to die: more HP helps increase the chances that you don't, while mana simply doesn't.

I am engaging in the conversation, and I am not dodging any points. Your "imaginary battle" fantasy is just silly and wrong. Please stop wasting time on it. Making up random and wrong assumptions about other people doesn't help your argument.

1. Wrong, it is not nearly impossible. Two different Magelos made by two different people with two different gear selections show this. Both Magelos do not have unobtainable raid gear for a non-raid Shaman. Every item in both of those Magelos could be obtained without raiding.

2. We are discussing 75HP vs 150-250ish Mana at level 60. Neither of those are very valuable by themselves. If 150 mana or 75HP determined the outcome of the battle, the problem wasn't your starting stats. Mana DOES increase your chances of not dying too. I have run out of Mana before due to bad resist chains. Shaman spells are expensive. That is dangerous because you may not have enough mana to gate, and not enough HP to cannibalize safely. Having an extra 200 mana means you could land 1 more slow, root, torpor, or gate. That CAN save your life.

ArbiterBlixen

07-21-2022, 12:52 PM

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Barbsham2

Here you go Loramin an easily attained wis starting stat build that maxes stamina. Wis still not close to max. No items here require raiding.

Edit, the page is going in and out of working, not sure why

Jimjam

07-21-2022, 01:16 PM

The real answer is all strength. At 60 the benefit provided by a couple dozen of any stat is a blip. That aspect has already been discussed. At low/mid levels the same strength is worth +100pp every single time you vendor (a bunch of fine steel / bronze / armour each vendor visit) and it has a noticeable impact on your melee (which is relevant till 40).

You’re gonna vendor more than a thousand times on the way to 60 ergo going max strength is the equivalent of starting with torpor (a 100,000 pp spell).

Move to resolved.

loramin

07-21-2022, 01:18 PM

I am engaging in the conversation, and I am not dodging any points. Your "imaginary battle" fantasy is just silly and wrong. Please stop wasting time on it.

1. Wrong, it is not nearly impossible. Two different Magelos made by two different people with two different gear selections show this. Both Magelos do not have unobtainable raid gear for a non-raid Shaman. Every item in both of those Magelos could be obtained without raiding.

Again, you really need to read the threads you participate in: up until this post there was exactly one Magelo ... the guy just renamed it because Danth was like "why are you calling it Danth's Wife?", and you didn't read the actual thread, so you thought there were two.

But, (right after you wrote that), there actually were two ...

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Barbsham2

Here you go Loramin an easily attained wis starting stat build that maxes stamina. Wis still not close to max. No items here require raiding.

So look, I appreciate that you're actually doing the work to prove your point, and you've clearly proved that:

A) if you want Stamina, there are "better" ways to gear a Shaman than the way Loramin is geared (... if you like having a lot less AC, no regen, no instant-clicky item, ...)

B) it is possible, with more than just one possible build, to cap max Stamina as a casual Shaman

But none of that disputes my original point, and in fact your Magelos really just support it, because: they're end-game Shaman. They're not 0-60 Shaman, they're not 60-Torpor Shaman, and they're not Torpor-"final gear (or nearly)" Shaman ... they're just "final gear (or nearly) Shaman".

For the vast, vast majority of OP's playtime, everything until they have all but the very last few item slots filled with the very best items they can possibly acquire ... they will not hit the cap.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 01:28 PM

Again, you really need to read the threads you participate in: up until this post there was exactly one Magelo ... the guy just renamed it because Danth was like "why are you calling it Danth's Wife?", and you didn't read the actual thread, so you thought there were two.

But, (right after you wrote that), there actually were two ...

So look, I appreciate that you're actually doing the work to prove your point, and you've clearly proved that:

A) if you want Stamina, there are "better" ways to gear a Shaman than the way Loramin is geared (... if you like having a lot less AC, no regen, no instant-clicky item, ...)

B) it is possible, with more than just one possible build, to cap max Stamina as a casual Shaman

But none of that disputes my original point, and in fact your Magelos really just support it, because: they're end-game Shaman. They're not 0-60 Shaman, they're not 60-Torpor Shaman, and they're not Torpor-"final gear (or nearly)" Shaman ... they're just "final gear (or nearly) Shaman".

For the vast, vast majority of OP's playtime, everything until they have all but the very last few item slots filled with the very best items they can possibly acquire ... they will not hit the cap.

I did read the thread, you need to take your own advice lol.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BarbShaman was posted by Siberious, and https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Danthswife was posted by Arbiterblixen. So yes, there were two different people with two different Magelos:)

I am not sure why you are talking about 0-60 Shaman, since you yourself said you are not talking about them.

I was capped on STA before I got Torpor or level 60, and that was all funded by basically just killing guards lol. People can easily cap STA if they put some effort into it. If someone is truly so casual that they have garbage gear at level 60, they probably don't care about their starting stats either to be honest. If they cared about stats, they would progress their gear.

Finally, you are dodging my point about Mana being able to save your life too, since you seem to have this weird idea that it cant.

loramin

07-21-2022, 01:52 PM

I did read the thread, you need to take your own advice lol.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BarbShaman was posted by Siberious, and https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Danthswife was posted by Arbiterblixen. So yes, there were two different people with two different Magelos:)

No, they were the same Magelo, renamed. Way to double down on being wrong.

I am not sure why you are talking about 0-60 Shaman, since you yourself said you are not talking about them.

You must be referring to something out of context: I've said multiple times in this thread (with explanations) how HP > Mana, both before and at 60.

I was capped on STA before I got Torpor or level 60

So to be clear: you did not do any high-end raiding prior to acquiring Torpor?

Finally, you are dodging my point about Mana being able to save your life too, since you seem to have this weird idea that it cant.

What "point"? You insisted your opinion was true without any explanation whatsoever:

Both 75HP and 150-250ish Mana will slightly increase your chances of survival at level 60. Both can keep you from dying, but the chances are small in either case.

I've already explained (I know you hate reading existing threads, but do try to keep up) how in a variety of the fights I imagine Shaman doing at 60 (eg. Seb, PoM, WW), the hard part of the fight isn't running out of mana: the hard part is living long enough to land a slow (or re-slow).

If you want to convince me otherwise, just explain the situations that a 60 Shaman would be in where mana would save their life and HP wouldn't.

Look, I'll admit this much to both you and ArbiterBlixen ArbiterBlixen. Even as a "casual" (ie. non-high-end-raiding) Shaman, once you've gotten all or nearly all your gear, depending on how much you like Stamina vs. AC, HP, regen, clickies, and other factors: you may well hit the Stamina cap.

If that happens ... well, you'll never actually notice the issue in play, but for min/max purposes (which is fun for some people) it's possible you'll wish you'd put more points in Wisdom ...

... for the remaining 0.01% of the total time spent playing that character. Because honestly, few people continue playing a character much when there is no gear left to get for them.

But I still maintain that for the 99.9% of the character's life up until that point, more Stamina (ie. HP) will serve them better than more Wisdom (ie. Mana).

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 02:02 PM

No, they were the same Magelo, renamed. Way to double down on being wrong.

What are you talking about? Check the history on both of those links lol. It shows the pages being created by TWO different users. Unless you are suggesting they are the same person with two different accounts?

02:50, 21 July 2022‎ Siberious (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,038 bytes) (+1,038)‎ . . (Created page with "startMageloProfile * Name: BarbShaman * Class: Shaman * Race: Barbarian * Level: 60 * Guild: * Religion: * AltOrTestChar: No * BaseSTR: 103 * BaseSTA: 105 * BaseAGI: 82 * ...")

03:10, 21 July 2022 Arbiterblixen (Talk | contribs) moved page Magelo Blue:Danthswife to Magelo Blue:Bobo (revert)

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 02:08 PM

The only person who isn't reading the thread is you Loramin lol. I explained multiple times how mana can save your life as a Shaman. Please READ THE THREAD, I will not be rehashing it just because you are projecting your lack of reading on to me:)

And again:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BarbShaman was created by Siberious:

02:50, 21 July 2022‎ Siberious (Talk | contribs)‎ . . (1,038 bytes) (+1,038)‎ . . (Created page with "startMageloProfile * Name: BarbShaman * Class: Shaman * Race: Barbarian * Level: 60 * Guild: * Religion: * AltOrTestChar: No * BaseSTR: 103 * BaseSTA: 105 * BaseAGI: 82 * ...")

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Bobo (previously https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blueanthswife ) was created by Arbiterblixen:

03:10, 21 July 2022 Arbiterblixen (Talk | contribs) moved page Magelo Blue:Danthswife to Magelo Blue:Bobo (revert)

03:10, 21 July 2022‎ Arbiterblixen (Talk | contribs)‎ m . . (1,044 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Arbiterblixen moved page Magelo Blue:Danthswife to Magelo Blue:Bobo) (undo)

Siberious posted his magelo on page 7, and Arbiterblixen posted his magelo on page 6. Both of those pages were before my post on page 8. :)

Danth

07-21-2022, 02:40 PM

Comparison of lower-end characters continued:

I logged the wife's character on earlier rather than going from memory and her character's unbuffed stats were higher than I recalled; at 175 stamina she can max it out any time she wants simply by using an alchemy potion and switching out her goblin earring. In practice she doesn't bother because it doesn't matter in a duo, but that reduces my earlier comment of "never has maxed it" to technically correct, but effectively wrong insofar as this specific conversation is concerned. Her character was at 1950 HP, 2289 mana, 903 AC unbuffed. 175 stamina, 230-something WIS.

Note again we mostly duo so the mediocre AC is acceptable for her (who needs AC if you aren't getting hit?) but I would recommend more for a dedicated solo'er. On the occasions I log on her character and use it to solo something she does get smacked harder than I'd prefer.

BP/arms/legs are Thurgadin. Only problematic items for a current non-raider would be the epic and the FD ring. She got the epic in 2012 when it was virtually automatic and the FD ring was a (much appreciated) gift from a friend of ours. If I wanted to set it up more for solo'ing about 25-30 more stamina and ~100 display AC would be nice at the cost of trading some of that mana pool away. She was at 105 stamina/wis default. If you took the same character with a stamina focus you'd be at 195 stamina base, still over 3K mana, and have room to up that AC rating a bit for a more solo-oriented focus. Optionally you vcould make the same change entirely with gearing, highlighting that 20 points of a statistic are not a lot either way in this game, and that starting statistics and equipment choice very much inter-mingles.

Danth

loramin

07-21-2022, 02:43 PM

What are you talking about? Check the history on both of those links lol. It shows the pages being created by TWO different users. Unless you are suggesting they are the same person with two different accounts?

I misread several pages ago; I thought Siberious was recreating ArbiterBlixen's Magelo, but on review it looks like it was a separate one.

I apologize: you are correct and (on this note at least) you were reading the thread and I was the mistaken one.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 03:25 PM

I misread several pages ago; I thought Siberious was recreating ArbiterBlixen's Magelo, but on review it looks like it was a separate one.

I apologize: you are correct and (on this note at least) you were reading the thread and I was the mistaken one.

No worries, it happens. Just try to not jump to conclusions so quickly.

As for your other questions:

You must be referring to something out of context: I've said multiple times in this thread (with explanations) how HP > Mana, both before and at 60.

I am just confused as to what you are trying to argue. Before you said you weren't really talking about Shamans under 60, but then you started talking about them again.

So to be clear: you did not do any high-end raiding prior to acquiring Torpor?

No, I didn't even have my epic. My key items were Fungi Tunic, Fungi Staff, JBB, Black Fur Boots, Shawl 7, and Othmir Prexus Totem. The other slots were just filled with normal gear, nothing from raids. This was all basically funded by killing guards. This was back when you could make 500-600pp an hour killing Misty Thicket Guards. Even just playing 1 hour a day equates to 200k a year hehe. That is pretty casual to be honest.

What "point"? You insisted your opinion was true without any explanation whatsoever:

If you want to convince me otherwise, just explain the situations that a 60 Shaman would be in where mana would save their life and HP wouldn't.

I have run out of Mana before due to bad resist chains, fizzling, adds, etc. Shaman spells are expensive. That is dangerous because you may not have enough mana to gate, and not enough HP to cannibalize safely. Having an extra 200 mana means you could land 1 more slow, root, torpor, or gate. That CAN save your life.

I have run out of mana before and after Torpor. Pre-Torpor running out of mana often occurs when you are root rotting, and root just keeps breaking due to bad luck. Post Torpor this can happen on WW Dragons if you get really bad luck with fizzles and resists. I have had to gate even when the mob was slowed because I was at half health and no mana. It would be too risky to try and save the kill.

Danth

07-21-2022, 03:49 PM

...

Your relatively high-end character provides an interesting comparison to a lower-end shaman as I described above: Compared to the wife's character, your health is about the same and you have somewhat less mana, but your armor rating and resists are dramatically higher. That's the real advantage to the higher-end equipment, you get a bunch of different stats on it rather than having to maybe focus on one or two. It definitely looks like a solo-oriented gear setup to me, one that takes advantage of your access to higher-end items.

Danth

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 04:06 PM

Your relatively high-end character provides an interesting comparison to a lower-end shaman as I described above: Compared to the wife's character, your health is about the same and you have somewhat less mana, but your armor rating and resists are dramatically higher. That's the real advantage to the higher-end equipment, you get a bunch of different stats on it rather than having to maybe focus on one or two. It definitely looks like a solo-oriented gear setup to me, one that takes advantage of your access to higher-end items.

Danth

I made a magelo for approximately what I had before I started heavily raiding. Most of this is the equipment I got for myself before 60 by killing guards, and some low-end raiding with Kittens:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:ShamwowiPreTorpor

I am an Ogre, and I dumped most of my points into WIS. I have 128 STA base, so that is 23 points more than a Barbarian with 105 WIS and 105 STA.

loramin

07-21-2022, 04:34 PM

I am just confused as to what you are trying to argue. Before you said you weren't really talking about Shamans under 60, but then you started talking about them again.

What I actually wrote was:

Before 60 no one is maxing any stats, so I'be been assuming the conversation starts at 60: personally I'm not even trying to discuss <60 here.

That seems extremely clear to me: we were talking about maxing Stamina, and no one is maxing Stamina at level 39. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand, but even if it was ... literally just two posts later ... I clarified that even without considering stat maxes, HP was still preferable:

P.S. But also (re: <60), when XPing max mana truly doesn't matter. I never died, not even once, in my entire journey to 60, because I started at max mana, used it all up, and died at the end for the lack of just a bit more mana.

However, I did die (many times) from fights where I started at max HP, and then died because I couldn't gate out fast enough, or root fast enough, or whatever ... and a few more HP might have given me time to get that last survival spell off.

And yet, despite me saying this way back on page 5 ... you still can't explain what I've got wrong there.

No, I didn't even have my epic. My key items were Fungi Tunic, Fungi Staff, JBB, Black Fur Boots, Shawl 7, and Othmir Prexus Totem. The other slots were just filled with normal gear, nothing from raids.

I am an Ogre, and I dumped most of my points into WIS. I have 128 STA base, so that is 23 points more than a Barbarian with 105 WIS and 105 STA.

Mystery solved: you're talking oranges and everyone else here was talking Apples.

But getting back to Barbarian Shaman (you know, the topic of the thread) still no one has presented any evidence that for 99.9% of that Shaman's life Stamina won't be better; all you've got is "in the last 0.01% of their life as they get their very final items, they might (depending on gear preferences) hit the cap."

I have run out of Mana before due to bad resist chains, fizzling, adds, etc. Shaman spells are expensive.

Again, you're reframing my arguments to win, while ignoring what I wrote. Be honest: in what % of fights do you actually start at max mana, burn through all that mana (but not all your HP), and then die at the end from lack of mana?

I have run out of mana before and after Torpor ... *WW Dragon details*

But again, stop ignoring what I'm asking: is the hard part of a typical WW dragon fight that you run out of Mana but still have plenty of HP leftover, or (as I keep repeating) is the hard part surviving long enough to land slow?

Siberious

07-21-2022, 04:41 PM

I'm not "talking absolutes", and I fully agree you could put all points in Charisma and still be perfectly happy playing that Shaman for a decade ... but we are theorycrafting on what's best for a non-high-end raid shaman here.

I won't disagree ... but you don't have a choice of raw hit points or stamina with your starting points, only Wisdom or Stamina.

To be a straw man, it has to (falsely) support y argument. Saying "maybe not all Shaman do the camps I listed, because someone mentioned another camp" was in no way a part of my argument ... it was weakening my argument.

If all Shaman just did the camps I described, my argument would be stronger, so saying "there might be other places where my argument doesn't apply" is not a straw man strengthening my argument!

Try to actually understand what a logical fallacy is before you accuse people of using one next time.

The Magelos are special, so I don't think they can be renamed, only deleted and remade. I deleted Danth's Wife for you ;-)

FINALLY! This has been what I've been trying to show here!

That shaman has 69 less AC than Loramin (Danth was just talking about the importance of AC to a Shaman). They have more than 200 mana less than Loramin (throughout this thread everyone keeps insisting max mana matters). They have 27 less MR and significantly less other resists, no regen, no FT ...

... and they're "done". This Shaman has played for years to get all that gear, and now at the end they have nowhere to go (without losting stamina).

So yes, if you abandon everything else and just focus on Stamina, and devote your entire Shaman career to getting Stamina gear, at the very end you might, maybe max out your Stamina.

But for the entire time you spent leveling up, and the entire time you spent at 60 farming plat for Torpor, and then the entire time you spent acquiring gear with Torpor ... more HP would have been more helpful than mana, for reasons I've repeatedly endlessly, and no one has in any way confronted.

Oof. I had a longer response I wanted to give, but you're so all over the place and delusional with this last post I just can't. The wiki I created was a quick sketch to illustrate you can get to max sta if you want with non-raid gear and a 105/105 sta/wis base. It's no where close to "done" or the best options in general. And it's barely different than Loramin in any fashion, it even has more hps. I didn't sacrifice much of anything meaningful (resists/FT1/2hp regen from Vindi BP aren't meaningful in this conversation), it's just missing expensive group gear or raid gear in comparison to Loramin, of course some stats will be lower.

It's clear you're going to continue to say that no one has confronted your claims, despite literally everyone doing so with data and examples. You just ignore/misinterpret/misunderstand the majority of what everyone types, especially claiming my magelo link proved your point. I'm out for real this time, came back to provide the magelo I promised if you wanted it, only to be met with the above response that ensures me you have no plans to understand what is being discussed.

loramin

07-21-2022, 04:48 PM

Oof. I had a longer response I wanted to give, but you're so all over the place and delusional with this last post I just can't.

I truly don't understand how I'm "all over the place"; I've continuously repeated the same, very basic, points, over and over throughout this thread:

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

2) Prior to 60/Torpor, HP help you survive and level faster than mana does

3) At 60/with Torpor, for the kinds of fights I've listed (eg. PoM A4, Efreeti, WW Dragons, Crypt in Seb) the hard part of winning the fight isn't having enough mana to cast what you need: the hard part is surviving long enough to land slow.

If you don't want to contest those points, great: talk about your PE hammer-wielding ogre and how he proves non-raid Barbs should invest in Wisdom. Post magelos of what a Shaman looks like at the very end of their career and use that as justification for why they should have less HP for the 99% rest of their career.

More power to you, but personally this mindless arguing is exhausting me, so I'm simply not going to reply to any more posts here unless someone posts a logical argument or evidence that actually contradicts the above points.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 04:58 PM

That seems extremely clear to me: we were talking about maxing Stamina, and no one is maxing Stamina at level 39. Not sure why this is hard for you to understand, but even if it was ... literally just two posts later ... I clarified that even without considering stat maxes, HP was still preferable:

It is clear. You are talking about level 60 Shamans. I was too, so there is no need to bring up 0-59 Shamans. Not sure what the problem is. Just stop bringing up 0-59 Shamans in your arguments lol.

Mystery solved: you're talking oranges and everyone else here was talking Apples.

But getting back to Barbarian Shaman (you know, the topic of the thread) still no one has presented any evidence that for 99.9% of that Shaman's life Stamina won't be better; all you've got is "in the last 0.01% of their life as they get their very final items, they might (depending on gear preferences) hit the cap."

What are you talking about? I have been talking about Barbarians the whole time lol. All of the Magelos posted here that we were talking about are Barbarian. I simply posted my Magelo because you asked about my gear before level 60. Or did you forget your own questions already?

Again, you're reframing my arguments to win, while ignoring what I wrote. Be honest: in what % of fights do you actually start at max mana, burn through all that mana (but not all your HP), and then die at the end from lack of mana?

I am not reframing anything. What are you talking about? I have run out of mana starting at MAX MANA before, and me dying to that is about the same percentage as me surviving at 75HP or less. Both cases are rare.

But again, stop ignoring what I'm asking: is the hard part of a typical WW dragon fight that you run out of Mana but still have plenty of HP leftover, or (as I keep repeating) is the hard part surviving long enough to land slow?

75HP has never been the difference between life and death in a WW dragon fight for me pre-slow. I do not run extra HP items to increase my max HP for any WW dragon fight. If I was that low on HP and the dragon was unslowed, I would just die because WW dragons hit for around 200.

EDIT:

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

None of the Magelos posted here are high-end raid gear lol. Where are you getting this? You can cap stamina with EC bought items on a Barbarian, as shown in two different Magelos made by two different people. You clearly do not understand the difference between gear tiers.

Siberious

07-21-2022, 05:33 PM

I truly don't understand how I'm "all over the place"; I've continuously repeated the same, very basic, points, over and over throughout this thread:

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

2) Prior to 60/Torpor, HP help you survive and level faster than mana does

3) At 60/with Torpor, for the kinds of fights I've listed (eg. PoM A4, Efreeti, WW Dragons, Crypt in Seb) the hard part of winning the fight isn't having enough mana to cast what you need: the hard part is surviving long enough to land slow.

If you don't want to contest those points, great: talk about your PE hammer-wielding ogre and how he proves non-raid Barbs should invest in Wisdom. Post magelos of what a Shaman looks like at the very end of their career and use that as justification for why they should have less HP for the 99% rest of their career.

More power to you, but personally this mindless arguing is exhausting me, so I'm simply not going to reply to any more posts here unless someone posts a logical argument or evidence that actually contradicts the above points.

1) A Barbarian Shaman who doesn't get high-end raid gear will not hit the Stamina cap until the very end of their Shaman career (if ever)

No barb shaman does, period. This isn't some point people are trying to dodge cause they can't dispute it, it's simply irrelevant to the conversation. I also proved you can max it, if you want, with very little detriment to anything else (see my previous posts).

2) Prior to 60/Torpor, HP help you survive and level faster than mana does

Lol, no one is saying hps don't help you survive. However, the vast majority of time you spend leveling and pre-torpor is 50+ and you aren't face tanking much at that point if you're attempting to level or gain plat in any sort of efficient fashion. So no, the extra +20 sta compared to +20 wisdom (This is the actual conversation we're trying to have) does not help you level faster. You can get whatever spread of HP/Mana you want off of gear to help you level faster in the fashion you want, but this point is again half baked on your side, no one is contesting HPs being very important, we're talking about starting stats, and the +20 sta doesn't help you level faster, and in reality the +20 wis wouldn't either, they're both marginal.

3) At 60/with Torpor, for the kinds of fights I've listed (eg. PoM A4, Efreeti, WW Dragons, Crypt in Seb) the hard part of winning the fight isn't having enough mana to cast what you need: the hard part is surviving long enough to land slow.

This is also misleading. Not only because the +20 sta at char creation is very likely irrelevant in these cases (again, no one is contesting hps being important, just talking about starting stats), but the vast majority of the time you're dying in these scenarios is because you are oom AND run out of hps (I've done all of these, so yes i'm familiar with them). This is because you're not stable without slow+torp, but you have plenty of time to malo/root/kite/attempt slows/pet tanks/heal self etc. So unless you're just standing there spamming slows and not healing yourself or trying to kite/CC, you aren't dying with much mana left if any. Again, hps are clearly important. You need them to solo these types of encounters, but the way you're presenting it as if the +20 sta is going to save your life here is misleading, because it's almost never going to save you, as you'll almost always go oom by the time you're dead.

If you don't want to contest those points, great: talk about your PE hammer-wielding ogre and how he proves non-raid Barbs should invest in Wisdom. Post magelos of what a Shaman looks like at the very end of their career and use that as justification for why they should have less HP for the 99% rest of their career.

More power to you, but personally this mindless arguing is exhausting me, so I'm simply not going to reply to any more posts here unless someone posts a logical argument or evidence that actually contradicts the above points.

I clearly contested these points, though I don't expect you to consider them contested based on previous experience with trying to have this conversation. Also I don't have a PE hammer-wielding ogre (again, that's someone else), I offered to make a magelo, you asked for a it, and I provided it, so don't pretend I made one of a shaman at the end of their "career" when I very much didn't.

Also the +sta is objectively worse than the +wis while leveling in my opinion, especially given you have much better +ac/sta/hp combos for armor options on gear than wisdom/mana. You get better returns on the +wis than +sta through the entirety of time playing. So it makes sense to take the armor that has better overall combinations of ac and/or hp and/or sta and bulk up on the wisdom at char select since it's a single stat option, and not combined with other stats. And as demonstrated, you can cap sta without starting with more than 105, with very little determent to other stats, but you'll never cap wisdom without severe loss of hps.

Danth

07-21-2022, 05:43 PM

You can cap stamina with EC bought items on a Barbarian, as shown in two different Magelos made by two different people.

At least one of those "test profiles" reached high stamina by going hard enough for specific +stamina items that he actually lowered his health compared to what he could've had using some +HP items instead. One of the advantages to having good innate stamina is you don't need to make that type of tradeoff as much. On the other hand, as I reminded myself earlier, you don't actually need 205 stamina to cap it unless you want it capped fulltime. Otherwise you can cap it from 155 by stacking alchemy potions, good enough for occasional "trophy kill" situations.

My own experience in west wastes, when I've used the wife's shaman to solo there, is that mana tends to be the limiting factor because you can kite them to land malo/slow, and the most likely cause of trouble tends to be getting hordes of adds during a pull from a non-coastline dragon, and you can't torpor if you need to be moving, so that can strain the mana bar.

I would want higher health someplace like velketor where I might have to break a 4- or 5- pull and absorb considerable damage during the rooting process. I've done that using the shaman on occasion and due to low resist rates, HP are very much favored over mana for that type of scenario.

I haven't personally done any of the "trophy kill" stuff using the wife's shaman. We've done plenty of stuff duo, some of it quite tough, but if we're duo I'm on my Shadowknight, so I can't comment on those types of battles from a solo shaman's perspective. Stuff like west wastes, velketor, most of mischief, I regard as more meat-and-potatoes that nearly any max-level shaman who wants to solo will do at some point.

Danth

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 05:55 PM

At least one of those "test profiles" reached high stamina by going hard enough for specific +stamina items that he actually lowered his health compared to what he could've had using some +HP items instead. One of the advantages to having good innate stamina is you don't need to make that type of tradeoff as much. On the other hand, as I reminded myself earlier, you don't actually need 205 stamina to cap it unless you want it capped fulltime. Otherwise you can cap it from 155 by stacking alchemy potions, good enough for occasional "trophy kill" situations.

My own experience in west wastes, when I've used the wife's shaman to solo there, is that mana tends to be the limiting factor because you can kite them to land malo/slow, and the most likely cause of trouble tends to be getting hordes of adds during a pull from a non-coastline dragon, and you can't torpor if you need to be moving, so that can strain the mana bar.

I would want higher health someplace like velketor where I might have to break a 4- or 5- pull and absorb considerable damage during the rooting process. I've done that using the shaman on occasion and due to low resist rates, HP are very much favored over mana for that type of scenario.

I haven't personally done any of the "trophy kill" stuff using the wife's shaman. We've done plenty of stuff duo, some of it quite tough, but if we're duo I'm on my Shadowknight, so I can't comment on those types of battles from a solo shaman's perspective.

Danth

Agreed. I am not trying to claim the goal is to max Stamina at all costs. My point is that there are multiple gear combinations that get you there, without the need for raid gear. Not everybody min/maxes their gear at all levels, and all of the example Magelos I saw in this thread so far are feasible goals for a casual Shaman. The point is simply that it is easier to cap STA than WIS, even with lower tier gear. So WIS is generally the better starting stat. Even when you are not capped, 75HP will rarely save you from dying. It just isn't a lot of HP at level 60 when everything hits for 140+ damage.

You are also correct about what you noticed about mana when fighting WW Dragons. People always forget that Shaman spells are expensive hehe. Pox is 430 mana, Malo is 350 mana, Insidious Decay is 100 mana, and Turgur's insects is 150 mana. One round of each spell is 1030 mana, which is 1/3 of a Shaman's mana bar at 3k mana. If you get a few resists on Pox or Turgurs that can easily be another 1000 mana. Plus you need to Torpor for 200 mana. You can quickly run out if you get unlucky.

loramin

07-21-2022, 07:10 PM

Lol, no one is saying hps don't help you survive. However, the vast majority of time you spend leveling and pre-torpor is 50+ and you aren't face tanking much at that point if you're attempting to level or gain plat in any sort of efficient fashion. So no, the extra +20 sta compared to +20 wisdom (This is the actual conversation we're trying to have) does not help you level faster.

I never said that +20 of either is going to make a huge difference; to the contrary I wrote:

I'm not "talking absolutes", and I fully agree you could put all points in Charisma and still be perfectly happy playing that Shaman for a decade ... but we are theorycrafting on what's best for a non-high-end raid shaman here.

And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.

the vast majority of the time you're dying in these scenarios is because you are oom AND run out of hps (I've done all of these, so yes i'm familiar with them). This is because you're not stable without slow+torp, but you have plenty of time to malo/root/kite/attempt slows/pet tanks/heal self etc. So unless you're just standing there spamming slows and not healing yourself or trying to kite/CC, you aren't dying with much mana left if any.

You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.

I offered to make a magelo, you asked for a it, and I provided it, so don't pretend I made one of a shaman at the end of their "career" when I very much didn't.

I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.

Also the +sta is objectively worse than the +wis while leveling in my opinion,

The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!

loramin

07-21-2022, 07:18 PM

On the other hand, as I reminded myself earlier, you don't actually need 205 stamina to cap it unless you want it capped fulltime. Otherwise you can cap it from 155 by stacking alchemy potions, good enough for occasional "trophy kill" situations.

Just so I don't get accused of ignoring it, the potion thing is undoubtedly a valid point for some people, and I haven't responded to it just because ... I agree with you (so there wasn't anything to say) :)

Personally, I would never use Stamina (or any) potions for farming, because potions = negative plat, and the goal of farming is positive plat. But as we discussed earlier, different Shaman play differently, and if you're ok with burning through potions regularly then I 100% agree you can hit the Stamina cap faster than I've been making it out (maybe 95% of the way through your Shaman career instead of 99%?)

My own experience in west wastes, when I've used the wife's shaman to solo there, is that mana tends to be the limiting factor because you can kite them to land malo/slow, and the most likely cause of trouble tends to be getting hordes of adds during a pull from a non-coastline dragon, and you can't torpor if you need to be moving, so that can strain the mana bar.

Honestly I haven't done nearly as many WW dragons as I've done other fights, and I also haven't done them in forever (unless you count helping kill them with my Green Mage). Maybe they (like the Sebilite Protectors) really do require mana more? I need to go watch some Youtube WW kills, or better yet actually play Loramin again (after letting him slumber on Blue for years).

Also, now I want to try soloing Sebilite Protectors with them: if one good thing has come out of this thread, it's that it's made me want to play my "first love" on this server again :D

(BTW I still haven't even gotten him the headdress yet, even after you provided that super helpful write-up of how to do it. I'm such a slacker when it comes to Blue these days ...)

Siberious

07-21-2022, 07:56 PM

I never said that +20 of either is going to make a huge difference; to the contrary I wrote:

And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.

You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.

I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.

The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!

And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.

I have explained myself here multiple times. I'd rather have the extra mana while leveling, max level, and after torp. This is because the extra hps from the sta isn't going to help me achieve any of the prior any more efficiently than if I had the extra mana from +wis. I even think the extra mana is more helpful for casting more spells while leveling or farming because most everything 40+ is root rotting if solo unless you exclusively tank/spank with a JBB (which I don't do and wouldn't plan on doing except for a certain window of leveling from when it's useable into the low 50s). I can always get to 205 sta eventually with gear if I want. So since there is the possibility that my +20 sta will be wasted eventually, i'll go with the +20 wis that won't ever go to waste. It's not exclusively about helping more, it's also about what makes sense in the long run to maximize my stats. I also happen to think it's more helpful however.

You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.

My comment on running oom and dying around the same time is very specific to prior to landing the first slow. If the mob is slowed, you win, unless you simply aren't geared to handle the duration of the fight of the slowed mob. You can kite 22 until slowed, so mana definitely plays a role. You don't need to engage it prior to it being slowed. If slow falls off because of reslow, mana is helpful because the only way it doesn't get reslowed is if you ran oom trying to reslow it. I can't see a scenario where I have tons of mana and reslow didn't land in time, unless it was user error and I went for reslows too late (this has happened of course, everyone spaces out sometimes).

Similar to 22 a WW dragon isn't gonna get face tanked the entire time while trying to slow it. You can make some space for at least a couple slow attempts during pull to kill spot, then torping self and trying more slows.

In crypt you can attempt to malo/root take small step back to get a slow attempt in, at least 1-2 times throughout the slow attempts while torping self. Less room to work with here but there is some flexibility. Even worst case tossing a chloroblast between waiting for slow gem to refresh to buy you some more hps between slow attempts can help render you oom around the time you run out of hps and die, but at least you get an extra slow attempt off.

I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.

Again, I believe you're off base here. This shaman was not anywhere close to done with 99% of there shamaning, I completely disagree with that. I've listed and showed multiple times plenty of more upgrades to be had, that take significant time. I showed it was possible to cap stamina, while also continuing to acknowledge you realistically won't cap it for a long time, and that's okay because i'd prefer the extra mana from the +20 wis regardless, and because I think it's at least as, if not more, helpful than the hps from the sta, and it'll never go to waste.

The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!

It's just a miss from my dozens of edits for these responses before I send them. To clarify, the "in my opinion" part should have been removed, I was shifting thought from it being an opinion, to thinking it's just objectively a better long term choice to take the +20 wis than the +20 sta, albeit a very minor difference, but technically a better choice nonetheless.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 07:59 PM

And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.

I have explained this multiple times. You just aren't reading.

75HP at level 60 will not help you survive a pre-slow crisis. If you are at 75HP and the mob still isn't slowed, you are dead because mobs hit for 140+ at level 60.

150-250 mana will generally not help you survive in a pre-slow crisis either. In both cases, it would come down to rare luck.

With that being said, Mana can help you survive solo encounters at level 60. I have been in situations where WW Dragons resisted too many spells, and I ended up being OOM with around 50% HP. Even though the mob was slowed, cannibalizing 200 mana to cast another Torpor would cost 450 HP. With the mob being able to double attack for 400, you are at the risk of losing ~900HP in a very short period of time. That is very risky when 50% of my HP is 1300 HP. I would be at 400HP when Torpor went off, assuming I don't get double attacked again for 400. Having that 200 extra mana would mean I could cast a Torpor without having to cannibalize, giving me more breathing room to recover. Last time I checked, 450 HP is greater than 75HP hehe.

Realistically speaking you only need enough max HP in a solo encounter to safely pre-slow a monster most of the time. After that the extra max HP is generally wasted, as you never go to max HP during an encounter. In a crisis situation, you will often times end up dying anyway, even if you had an extra 100HP, due to how hard/fast mobs hit at 60.

loramin

07-21-2022, 09:25 PM

I'd rather have the extra mana while leveling, max level, and after torp. This is because the extra hps from the sta isn't going to help me achieve any of the prior any more efficiently than if I had the extra mana from +wis

What do you mean by "more efficiently"? Neither HP not Mana help in any way with killing efficiency, as increasing maximum anything won't make you kill faster over time. Other than stuff that literally makes you kill faster (eg. a better weapon or the JBB) the only way to kill faster is to reduce downtime (ie. get more AC, HP regen, Flowing Thought, or clickies that save you mana on buffing).

The only way I can see efficiency being relevant here is the efficiency of "not dying = leveling faster" (or not losing your camp, if you're farming). And again extra HP will keep you alive far more often than extra mana (at any level): 0 HP = death 100% of the time, 0 Mana = death far less than 100%.

My comment on running oom and dying around the same time is very specific to prior to landing the first slow. If the mob is slowed, you win, unless you simply aren't geared to handle the duration of the fight of the slowed mob. You can kite 22 until slowed, so mana definitely plays a role. You don't need to engage it prior to it being slowed. If slow falls off because of reslow, mana is helpful because the only way it doesn't get reslowed is if you ran oom trying to reslow it. I can't see a scenario where I have tons of mana and reslow didn't land in time, unless it was user error and I went for reslows too late (this has happened of course, everyone spaces out sometimes).

Similar to 22 a WW dragon isn't gonna get face tanked the entire time while trying to slow it. You can make some space for at least a couple slow attempts during pull to kill spot, then torping self and trying more slows.

In crypt you can attempt to malo/root take small step back to get a slow attempt in, at least 1-2 times throughout the slow attempts while torping self. Less room to work with here but there is some flexibility. Even worst case tossing a chloroblast between waiting for slow gem to refresh to buy you some more hps between slow attempts can help render you oom around the time you run out of hps and die, but at least you get an extra slow attempt off.

If you can run away from something instead of getting hit, that's good, because it keeps you alive longer. If you can Torpor yourself to (also) stay alive longer, that's good too. We agree.

But if you kill a mob a hundred times (as you do when farming), the RNG turns on you sometimes. Your stats don't matter all the times things go smoothly: they matter for the times when the shit hits the fan, and no matter how much kiting, Torporing, whatever you do, you can't land a Slow and the mob keeps hurting you.

I'm arguing that it's those "shit hits the fan" cases which matter ... and I'll even grant that in X% of those cases, having even 500 extra HP still won't save you!

But overall, in the cases where your stats do matter, having extra "life points" is going to be the best way to "stay alive".

Again, I believe you're off base here. This shaman was not anywhere close to done with 99% of there shamaning, I completely disagree with that. I've listed and showed multiple times plenty of more upgrades to be had, that take significant time. I showed it was possible to cap stamina, while also continuing to acknowledge you realistically won't cap it for a long time, and that's okay because i'd prefer the extra mana from the +20 wis regardless, and because I think it's at least as, if not more, helpful than the hps from the sta, and it'll never go to waste.

Well, we'll just have to disagree about gearing a Shaman then I guess. Your "capped example" Magelo (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:BarbShaman) has <1k AC, only 50 MR, no instant clicky, no regen, etc. It's just my opinion, but I don't think it shows that a Barb casual is going to hit the cap anytime ...

... but even if it was ... we're quibbling over whether the Shaman will hit the cap for the last 99% their career, or just the last 97%.

I have explained this multiple times. You just aren't reading.

75HP at level 60 will not help you survive a pre-slow crisis. If you are at 75HP and the mob still isn't slowed, you are dead because mobs hit for 140+ at level 60.

150-250 mana will generally not help you survive in a pre-slow crisis either. In both cases, it would come down to rare luck.

This is basically the "the whole argument is pointless" and ... I agree. I've agreed repeatedly throughout this thread that no one is going to actually notice a slight difference in their numbers in any direction.

But if we are theorcrafting, let's theorycraft, and I just don't agree with that quote: 75 HP absolutely can help you survive. Not a lot ... but a whole lot more than Mana will.

With that being said, Mana can help you survive solo encounters at level 60. I have been in situations where

Sure it can ... but HP will help you survive a lot more often. Like I keep saying, they're literally life points: without them you die 100% of the time. It's self-evident that going OOM does not equal death 100% of the time.

Realistically speaking you only need enough max HP in a solo encounter to safely pre-slow a monster most of the time.

Right, which is basically the same as saying "you only need HP for the hard part of the fight".

DeathsSilkyMist

07-21-2022, 11:32 PM

Sure it can ... but HP will help you survive a lot more often. Like I keep saying, they're literally life points: without them you die 100% of the time. It's self-evident that going OOM does not equal death 100% of the time.

You keep saying it without actually listening to what other people are saying. No one is denying HP can help save your life. The problem is you vastly over-estimate 75HP. That much HP will basically never save you statistically at level 60 against an unslowed monster. Period. You will not notice any difference. I myself have taken off quite a few HP items from my equipment over the years (over 100HP), and I have seen 0 difference in how often I die.

In reality once you have enough Max HP to consistently clear the encounter, any more is pure waste. People who claim you need max HP just because it "can help" are generally just bad at the game and don't know how much life they need for an encounter.

Vivitron

07-22-2022, 03:19 AM

Siberious

07-22-2022, 08:26 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 10:08 AM

I'm writing as someone recieving the advice but applying it to my low level ogre shaman.

If I understand the formulas correctly, for sub 200 wisdom, a point of wisdom returns 4x as much mana as a point of stamina returns hp. Post 200 wisdom, wisdom returns 1.55x as much mana as sta returns hp.

So for earlier game I'm asking myself if I have a choice between a 100mana item and a 25hp item which do I wear? I think I take the 100 mana item -- equivalently, I'd rather have my starting points in wisdom than stamina when I'm not geared past the wisdom soft cap.

What about 25 hp vs 39 mana (25*1.55)? The hp sounds good to me at that ratio, so if I'm geared like loramin with soft capped wis and not-capped sta, the sta looks preferable to the wis.

Do I think my wisdom will be soft capped, then? The magelos I've seen in this thread make me think I'm likely to be sub 200 wisdom until I'm approaching the stamina hard cap, especially as an ogre. I made my shaman before I read this thread, but I'm feeling comfortable with my choice of 25 wis / 5 sta.

Gearing is a bit different from starting stats, since you can change your gear. Gearing also depends on your level.

For your first question about mana returns, let me repost a test I did:

I did another few tests with my Shaman, all under 200 WIS. Reducing 100 WIS got me 11.2 mana per WIS. Reducing my WIS by 10 got me 11.3 mana per WIS. Reducing my WIS by 5 got me 11.6 mana per WIS. Reducing my WIS by 2 got me 11.0 mana per WIS. It looks like the mana per WIS calculation fluctuates between 11 and 12 mana per WIS at level 60, depending on how the rounding works out. 11.6 was the highest I saw, but I could not test a +1, a +6, a +8, or a +9 WIS item to see what the results were. So I am assuming right now 11.6 is the highest it will go, and 11.0 is the lowest.

For Clerics and Shamans the formula for AVERAGE mana gained per WIS is:
1. 0.1883333 * WIS * LEVEL = Mana gained while under or at 200 WIS
2. (0.1883333 * WIS * LEVEL)/2 = Mana gained while over 200 WIS

If you want a bit more details on what I did, the thread I took this from is here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375225&highlight=shaman+mana+calculation

For early game, especially 1-39, HP is generally better because the game isn't designed for low level players to scale their HP hard. This will help survival, and allow you to cannibalize more. Once you are past 40, where WIS is giving you a decent return, you can start to balance HP and Mana more, depending on what you need more. Individual HP items get less important as you level, because it is rare for an HP item to give you a large amount. So if you took off a single 65HP ring, it probably wouldn't make any difference at level 60, because if 65HP was the difference between life and death, the problem wasn't your gear.

DMN

07-22-2022, 10:19 AM

that formula seems to be incredibly generous after the soft cap. Makes me wonder if the formula currently is not actually classic.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 10:29 AM

that formula seems to be incredibly generous after the soft cap. Makes me wonder if the formula currently is not actually classic.

Yeah that I do not know. All I know is this formula works for both Shamans and Clerics on P99. I tried it on my 60 Shaman and my 24 Cleric. The results were the same.

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 10:47 AM

Wisdom all day every day. If you hit the hard cap of 255, then start exchanging some +wis equipment for +sta equipment. Wisdom also helps a lot with skillups of various skills.

At level 50,
25 points of stamina is worth about 33 mana (from canni) and 63 hp.
25 points of wisdom below 200 is worth 250 mana
25 points of wisdom above 200 is worth 97 mana

At level 60,
25 points of stamina is worth about 39 mana (from canni) and 75 hp.
25 points of wisdom below 200 is worth 300 mana
25 points of wisdom above 200 is worth 117 mana

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 11:00 AM

At level 50,
25 points of wisdom below 200 is worth 250 mana
25 points of wisdom above 200 is worth 97 mana

At level 60,
25 points of wisdom below 200 is worth 300 mana
25 points of wisdom above 200 is worth 117 mana

That's a bit off. It's more like:

Level 50:
25 points of WIS below 200 = 235 mana
25 points of WIS above 200 = 117 mana

Level 60:
25 points of WIS below 200 = 280 mana
25 points of WIS above 200 = 140 mana

For Shamans and Clerics at least.

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 11:07 AM

That's a bit off. It's more like:

Level 50:
25 points of WIS below 200 = 235 mana
25 points of WIS above 200 = 117 mana

Level 60:
25 points of WIS below 200 = 280 mana
25 points of WIS above 200 = 140 mana

For Shamans at least.

Are you saying the wiki is wrong? https://wiki.project1999.com/Mana#Mana_.28MANA.29

Says at level 60, each point of wisdom is worth 12 below 200 wisdom. So 12 x 25 = 300. And above 200, each point of wisdom is worth 4.66, so 4.66 x 25 = 116.5.

Says at level 50, each point of wisdom is worth 10 below 200 wisdom. So 10 x 25 = 250. And above 200, each point of wisdom is worth 3.88, so 3.88 x 25 = 97.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 11:09 AM

Are you saying the wiki is wrong? https://wiki.project1999.com/Mana#Mana_.28MANA.29

Says at level 60, each point of wisdom is worth 12 below 200 wisdom. So 12 x 25 = 300. And above 200, each point of wisdom is worth 4.66, so 4.66 x 25 = 116.5.

Says at level 50, each point of wisdom is worth 10 below 200 wisdom. So 10 x 25 = 250. And above 200, each point of wisdom is worth 3.88, so 3.88 x 25 = 97.

Yes, I believe it is, I did testing on my Level 60 Shaman and level 24 Cleric

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375225&highlight=shaman+mana+calculation

You can see my results and the calculation I came up with.

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 11:20 AM

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 11:22 AM

Yes, I believe it is, I did testing on my Level 60 Shaman and level 24 Cleric

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=375225&highlight=shaman+mana+calculation

You can see my results and the calculation I came up with.

I'm curious if you allow yourself to go thirsty so you aren't getting any mana regen, then use spells til you get to zero if you come up with same results.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 11:22 AM

What UI are you using?

I am using the old Titanium UI before they switched over to the more "classic" UI, but that doesn't seem to matter. If the numbers were off I wouldn't be able to cast certain spells when at really low mana, and that isn't the case. It isn't a specific issue with the client being wrong, I did take that possibility into account when testing.

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 11:25 AM

I am using the old Titanium UI before they switched over to the more "classic" UI, but that doesn't seem to matter. If the numbers were off I wouldn't be able to cast certain spells when at really low mana, and that isn't the case. It isn't a specific issue with the client being wrong, I did take that possibility into account when testing.

My UI doesn't show total mana is why I asked what custom UI you were using so I could do my own testing.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 11:28 AM

My UI doesn't show total mana is why I asked what custom UI you were using so I could do my own testing.

Ah yeah, it's just the old UI that P99 was using before updating it. Not sure if people are hosting it anywhere, I just had it from before the update, and it still works.

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 11:30 AM

Ah yeah, it's just the old UI that P99 was using before updating it. Not sure if people are hosting it anywhere, I just had it from before the update, and it still works.

Lucky you, only way I could test this is going thirsty, then start casting spells til completely empty.

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 11:32 AM

Ah yeah, it's just the old UI that P99 was using before updating it. Not sure if people are hosting it anywhere, I just had it from before the update, and it still works.

Can you do a test for me? Take all your gear off and add one piece of gear with only wisdom and tell me what multiplier you get at level 60.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 11:40 AM

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 11:50 AM

Sure. With not items on I have 1359 Mana. When I put on an item with 7 WIS, it increases to 1440. 1440 - 1359 = 81. 81 / 7 = 11.5

This is consistent with my findings in that thread. Again, the decimal is not always the same, I assume it is due to some sort of strange rounding issue. The number seems to fluctuate between 11 and 12. I have yet to see a number below 11 or above 12.

Good stuff, thanks!

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 12:05 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 12:11 PM

If the wiki were to be fixed, Below 200 mana per wisdom = (82 * level) / 425. Formula works for your 60 and your level 24 mana numbers you provided in other thread.

Yeah that is basically correct. I put it this way:

For Clerics and Shamans the formula for AVERAGE mana gained per WIS is:
1. 0.1883333 * WIS * LEVEL = Mana gained while under or at 200 WIS
2. (0.1883333 * WIS * LEVEL)/2 = Mana gained while over 200 WIS

82 /425 = 0.192, so it is close. I think I lowered the number a tiny bit to take into account the fluctuation. I have gotten decimals from 11.0 to 11.6. No one formula is going to be 100% accurate due to the fluctuation, but it's close enough.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 12:18 PM

Yeah I am using 11.3 I believe instead of 11.5 because that is the midground between 11.0 and 11.6. Also, when you increase your WIS by 100, it is usually around 11.3, so that is probably closer to the real number.

So to put it in your terms:

((80 * LEVEL) / 425) * WIS

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 12:45 PM

I updated the Wiki, so it should be more accurate now.

Danth

07-22-2022, 01:42 PM

To answer an earlier question, it is well-known that wisdom past 200 returns far too much mana. It should be more like 1 mana per point past 200. If that were ever altered on P99 to more closely follow classic behavior it would probably weight the starting statistic balance more in favor of stamina, at least for long-term players. That may or may not ever happen--obviously, it hasn't in ~13 years--so all we can do is give advice for P99 as it is, rather than as it may one day become.

On a side note, the regular traditional P1999 UI that shows mana values should still be present in the patch downloads. It's there in the v55 I have, at least. It's called "default" while the translucent classic-style UI is called "velious."

Danth

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 01:48 PM

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 02:11 PM

Yeah I think Green can't use default, but blue can. So if you want to do mana value testing, you need to do it on Blue.

Oh yes, that's my issue with UI, I play on green.

Vivitron

07-22-2022, 03:20 PM

Yeah I think Green can't use default, but blue can. So if you want to do mana value testing, you need to do it on Blue.

Green can use it now too, since the last patch or so.

Thanks for the correction on the mana formula and input. Changes the sta/wis hp/mana tradeoff to 94 mana per 25 hp pre soft cap, 47 mana per 25 hp over the soft cap.

Raj

07-22-2022, 03:25 PM

1-Star Thread

The degree and severity of the speerging in this 1 thread in such a short time may scare away brand new players if they stumble upon this too soon :(

If only we all dedicated this level of passion and details to making beautiful well-adjusted families, going on adventures with the ones we have, or changing that other world called Earth for the better. =)

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 03:34 PM

eqravenprince

07-22-2022, 03:36 PM

If you are better than all of us, why bother posting here at all?:) Just leave and go live life.

Yeah, no kidding lol.

Raj

07-22-2022, 03:41 PM

If you are better than all of us, why bother posting here at all?:) Just leave and go live life.

I didnt just argue semantics and such for pages and pages that could amount to a small novel lol ... :cool:

DeathsSilkyMist

07-22-2022, 03:42 PM

I didnt just argue semantics and such for pages and pages that could amount to a small novel lol ... :cool:

But you clearly read it, so you are just as degenerate as us. Welcome!

strongNpretty

07-22-2022, 04:01 PM

If you are better than all of us, why bother posting here at all?:) Just leave and go live life.

Yeah, im'a need homey to get off these forums asap and continue creating beautiful well-adjusted families, and enjoying the copious amounts of adventures with the ones he has....

Ripqozko

07-22-2022, 04:09 PM

Yeah, im'a need homey to get off these forums asap and continue creating beautiful well-adjusted families, and enjoying the copious amounts of adventures with the ones he has....

This man failed all 3 servers

strongNpretty

07-22-2022, 04:17 PM

This man failed all 3 servers

That noun is offensive to me.

Ripqozko

07-22-2022, 04:45 PM

That noun is offensive to me.

Imagine sir

strongNpretty

07-22-2022, 06:57 PM

Imagine sir

How dare you.

greenspectre

07-23-2022, 01:18 AM

Can you do a test for me? Take all your gear off and add one piece of gear with only wisdom and tell me what multiplier you get at level 60.

I just wanted to point out that somebody asked DSM to take off all his clothes in a thread.

Honestly I don't think there's much of a difference between picking STA or WIS when you start if you're trying to ask yourself where you'll be at 60. If you pick WIS, you can load up on more STA gear to compensate, and if you pick STA, you can pick more WIS gear to compensate. 105/105 seems pretty good to me (I started WIS at green launch, but not based on any theorycrafting).

So I guess the operative question would be which gear is easier to get within the listed restrictions of being an endgame-non-raid-shaman? STA or WIS? Whatever the answer to that is, seems like OP would want to pick the opposite, no?

Just did my first AoE'ing WW dragon solo today, Hachaeva. While I'm more raid geared than the theorycrafting we are doing on this post, I definitely went from full mana bar to almost zero during the encounter. And I'm built for mana slightly more than HP.

Question to Loramin actually here- My Magelo shows my max HP unbuffed at 2068, yet its 2148 in-game. I checked my gear and stats over and over but can't figure out where the discrepancy is. Do you, Master of the Wiki (tm) have any idea why? Help would be appreciated!

DeathsSilkyMist

07-23-2022, 10:30 AM

I just wanted to point out that somebody asked DSM to take off all his clothes in a thread.

Lol.

Question to Loramin actually here- My Magelo shows my max HP unbuffed at 2068, yet its 2148 in-game. I checked my gear and stats over and over but can't figure out where the discrepancy is. Do you, Master of the Wiki (tm) have any idea why? Help would be appreciated!

The Magelo calculations have always been a bit off. For HP and Mana I am sure the formula could be tweaked to be closer, although I am not sure how easy it would be. For AC I am not sure if it is possible, since the value displayed in-game is wrong anyway I believe. I guess they could just adjust the Magelo formula to match the wrong value in the UI.

So I guess the operative question would be which gear is easier to get within the listed restrictions of being an endgame-non-raid-shaman? STA or WIS? Whatever the answer to that is, seems like OP would want to pick the opposite, no?

Correct. STA is generally easier to cap with Velious Era gear, even if it isn't raid gear. For example, Othmir Prexus Totem gives you +20 STA, and you can buy it in EC. You also need to take into account that Shamans can buff their STA by an additional 50 via Riotous Health. You can only buff WIS by 10 via Bear Form. So that is +70 STA just from 1 item and 1 buff.

Just did my first AoE'ing WW dragon solo today, Hachaeva. While I'm more raid geared than the theorycrafting we are doing on this post, I definitely went from full mana bar to almost zero during the encounter. And I'm built for mana slightly more than HP.

Grats! Yeah WW Dragons can drain you of mana if you get unlucky resists and whatnot. The trick to using as little mana as possible is clickies and minimizing spell usage. I don't use Bane of Nife, for example. I just use Pox, Epic, and sometimes JBB. I also use my pet (unhasted) to basically act as another DoT. He does enough damage to basically stop a WW Dragon's regeneration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpbLuNe0ls This is an example of how I pull and kill Bravatar.

greenspectre

07-23-2022, 10:40 AM

Grats! Yeah WW Dragons can drain you of mana if you get unlucky resists and whatnot. The trick to using as little mana as possible is clickies and minimizing spell usage. I don't use Bane of Nife, for example. I just use Pox, Epic, and sometimes JBB. I also use my pet (unhasted) to basically act as another DoT. He does enough damage to basically stop a WW Dragon's regeneration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpbLuNe0ls This is an example of how I pull and kill Bravatar.

Nice, yeah actually it was pretty smooth, all things considered, I was just a bit distracted with other stuff during the engage (being a dad and whatnot). I tried one bane, but gave up on that, used Cripple, Insidious Decay, Slow, Pox, and Epic, with pet also chewing away. Had to torp the pet once, and thanks to Grim Aura from my ring and SoW boots I lost minimal buffs. Needed a bit more Cold Resist for sure, but resisted occasionally.

loramin

07-23-2022, 11:10 AM

Question to Loramin actually here- My Magelo shows my max HP unbuffed at 2068, yet its 2148 in-game. I checked my gear and stats over and over but can't figure out where the discrepancy is. Do you, Master of the Wiki (tm) have any idea why? Help would be appreciated!

The Magelo feature was probably accurate years ago, when it was first written by Rahvin (the true wiki god) ... but the P99 devs have since changed their formula. Given that he no longer plays, I'm guessing that he won't have much interest in updating the formula, although he has fixed wiki bugs in the past so it could happen.

But if you really want to see it fixed ... and you know the programming language PHP ... you could "fix it yourself" by downloading the source code from https://wiki.project1999.com/utils/wikiUtils.php (click "Custom Extensions Source", and then the Magelo stuff is in a "Magelo" folder).

If you or anyone else could make a fix to the algorithm, I'd imagine Ravhin would add it to the wiki (and if not I'd be happy to beg Rogean until he does it). But without that, you may be waiting a long time for a fix :(

loramin

07-23-2022, 11:16 AM

Spithridates

07-23-2022, 02:36 PM

You guys always do this.

Vivitron

07-23-2022, 02:44 PM

P.S. The relevant file (for anyone who is curious) is "Magelo_body.php" in the "Magelo" folder. Even if you don't know PHP, but you have some programming background, the code is fairly straightforward and most programmers should be able to understand it.

For instance, here's the function to calculate total HP; as you can see it is fugly PHP code ;) ... but it is straightforward :

function get_total_hp($level, $class, $sta, $item_hp)
{
$lmod = Magelo::get_class_level_factor($level,$class);

$post_255 = 0;

if ($sta-255/2 > 0)
$post_255 = ($sta-255/2);

$base_hp = (5)+($level*$lmod/10) + ((($sta-$post_255)*$level*$lmod/3000)) +
(($post_255*$level)*$lmod/6000);

$nd = 10000;
$max_hp = $base_hp + $item_hp;
$max_hp = ($max_hp * $nd) / 10000;
return round($max_hp);
}

That's interesting; it looks like it's trying to soft-cap sta at 255, but due to an error soft caps it at 127.5.

One of the wiki pages I found claimed STA soft caps at 255, but I ignored it because I don't believe stats have any effect post 255 in era, a belief the posters in this thread implicitly share.

But, the code seems (without knowing php) to have an error: it calculates the post_255 sta as sta - 255/2 instead of sta - 255. This puts the soft cap at 127.5 instead of 255.

Lobnor posted 181 sta, 2068 magelo hp, and 2148 game hp. Lets run the numbers on him.

(181 - 127.5) = 53.5 sta that will only give half return on the magelo but full in game.

And (53.5 * 3) / 2 = 80.25; sure enough 2068 + 80.25 = 2148.25.

Crede

07-24-2022, 12:41 AM

OP, rerolling to troll/iksar/ogre with 25 points into intelligence would result in a much better shaman than a barb who optimized his starting stats.

ArbiterBlixen

07-24-2022, 05:11 PM

OP, rerolling to troll/iksar/ogre with 25 points into intelligence would result in a much better shaman than a barb who optimized his starting stats.

/mic drop

Jimjam

07-24-2022, 05:22 PM

We did really well making it to page 15 before suggesting to reroll to another race !

eqravenprince

07-25-2022, 08:18 AM

OP, rerolling to troll/iksar/ogre with 25 points into intelligence would result in a much better shaman than a barb who optimized his starting stats.

Much better is a bit of a stretch. I like not having to invis every single time I run through a town.

ArbiterBlixen

07-25-2022, 10:21 AM

Much better is a bit of a stretch. I like not having to invis every single time I run through a town.

Just bank in OT, dumbass

eqravenprince

07-25-2022, 10:26 AM

Just bank in OT, dumbass

Umm ok lol cause that's convenient.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-25-2022, 10:39 AM

Umm ok lol cause that's convenient.

I think he is referring to the wall trick. You can bank through the wall, even if you are KoS. Between that and OT hammer it is pretty convenient regardless of faction. You just need to invis over to the bank so you don't get attacked by the guards.

You basically right click one of the corners of the wall where the banker is on the other side and you can actually bank with them.

eqravenprince

07-25-2022, 11:29 AM

I think he is referring to the wall trick. You can bank through the wall, even if you are KoS. Between that and OT hammer it is pretty convenient regardless of faction. You just need to invis over to the bank so you don't get attacked by the guards.

You basically right click one of the corners of the wall where the banker is on the other side and you can actually bank with them.

I guess I spend too much time in the 1-50 game running in classic world where faction matters. I just thought calling me a dumbass was a bit extreme. And yes, sticking to my original statement, there really isn't a HUGE difference between shaman races. I like not being kos everywhere.

Naethyn

07-25-2022, 04:20 PM

Iksar shaman + necro bro's is how I started the server with a friend and it was very profitable.

ArbiterBlixen

07-25-2022, 04:41 PM

I think he is referring to the wall trick. You can bank through the wall, even if you are KoS. Between that and OT hammer it is pretty convenient regardless of faction. You just need to invis over to the bank so you don't get attacked by the guards.

You basically right click one of the corners of the wall where the banker is on the other side and you can actually bank with them.

Ogre's aren't KoS in OT. You can just bank. Barbs are kos though... so I wouldn't choose barb for ease of passage.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-25-2022, 05:18 PM

Ogre's aren't KoS in OT. You can just bank. Barbs are kos though... so I wouldn't choose barb for ease of passage.

Most characters regardless of starting faction end up being KoS in OT because a lot of higher level Kunark Zones reduce OT faction lol, like Karnor's Keep and Charasis. Both my Shaman and Shadowknight are now KoS because of that.

ArbiterBlixen

07-25-2022, 05:49 PM

Most characters regardless of starting faction end up being KoS in OT because a lot of higher level Kunark Zones reduce OT faction lol, like Karnor's Keep and Charasis. Both my Shaman and Shadowknight are now KoS because of that.

I think we were talking about starting faction due to race. Any faction you destroy you will be KoS to. That is a given.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-25-2022, 06:21 PM

I think we were talking about starting faction due to race. Any faction you destroy you will be KoS to. That is a given.

My point is that OT faction is much easier to ruin than normal, so you shouldn't assume just because someone is evil that they have good OT faction.

OT hammer is the reason why OT is convenient. Unless you are heavily twinked there is a decent chance you will have ruined your OT faction by the time you get one.

Before you get an OT hammer there really isn't a convenient way to get to OT, and honestly it isn't hard to build up FV faction as an evil race, just kill goblins. Both my Shaman and SK can bank/buy/sell in FV hehe.

Ripqozko

07-25-2022, 06:29 PM

I guess I spend too much time in the 1-50 game running in classic world where faction matters. I just thought calling me a dumbass was a bit extreme. And yes, sticking to my original statement, there really isn't a HUGE difference between shaman races. I like not being kos everywhere.

Velious exists and thurg is a simple port away and everyone starts at dubious. Hope that helps.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-25-2022, 06:32 PM

Velious exists and thurg is a simple port away and everyone starts at dubious. Hope that helps.

You start at apprehensive, and yes it's a great spot for all races. You can't accidentally ruin your dwarf faction just by playing in velious, unlike OT and Kunark hehe.

Your thinking of Kael, where Rallok Zek characters start as dubious.

ArbiterBlixen

07-25-2022, 06:57 PM

Key take away is that eqravenprince is banking in all the worst places and chooses his race based on that.

Troxx

07-27-2022, 12:12 AM

Real answer: it actually doesn’t really matter.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-27-2022, 12:29 AM

Real answer: it actually doesn’t really matter.

Some people like planning their character out. Nobody cares if you're someone who doesn't.

Troxx

07-27-2022, 12:39 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-27-2022, 09:32 AM

I gave up reading the back and forth about 7 pages in. It’s nauseating and pointless.

25 starting stats really just does not make a difference on the shaman class. You could dump it all into intelligence and it wouldn’t make any practical difference on a shaman 99.9999% of the time. If 25 of any given stat made the difference between success/failure while playing shaman … you’re doing it wrong.

Gear, skill and a complete spell book … far more important

Ok. If you're nauseated, stop reading and making pointless posts. OP is asking a question about starting stats, he isn't asking about how much you personally care about starting stats.

The funny thing is if you think gear is important, you think stats are important hehe. 25 points into WIS/STA is a lot gear-wise. That on average is at least 3 pieces of gear's worth, assuming it has a higher than average WIS/STA of 8+.

ArbiterBlixen

07-27-2022, 10:49 AM

Bumping for visibility.

loramin

07-27-2022, 11:14 AM

Bumping for visibility.

Because 17 pages wasn't enough for you? :p

DeathsSilkyMist

07-27-2022, 12:04 PM

Because 17 pages wasn't enough for you? :p

https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/033/246/cover10.jpg

Troxx

07-27-2022, 03:49 PM

Ok. If you're nauseated, stop reading and making pointless posts. OP is asking a question about starting stats, he isn't asking about how much you personally care about starting stats.

The funny thing is if you think gear is important, you think stats are important hehe. 25 points into WIS/STA is a lot gear-wise. That on average is at least 3 pieces of gear's worth, assuming it has a higher than average WIS/STA of 8+.

Nothing pointless was stated.

You missed the point entirely. Given the dynamics of how the class plays 25 of any given stat makes or breaks nothing. It’s certainly not important enough to watch the back and forth between Loramin et al bickering about 75 endgame hp from stamina if you can’t buff the extra to max without gear vs the extra mana from the wisdom. Dude asked a simple question and ended up with the dueling banjos repeating the same talking points over and over again. Shamans make their own health/mana work for themselves however they need it to work. Total mana pool matters less than knowing how to use your toolkit and having a complete spell book.

I know you know this. We have raided together. I know you know your shit man. Quit being obtuse.

We got a guy who wanted to roll a new shaman. It doesn’t matter what ratio of points he puts to stamina or wisdom.

If the OP really wants to know what the most important question he could be asking if you really want to min/max it shouldn’t be a question of stats but rather one of race. He’s making a barbarian. That’s fine if that’s what you want to stare at, but compared to having innate regen vs FSI (that’s it’s own can of worms) … either of those is so much more meaningful then where to dump starting stats.

Having said that, I made my monk human because that’s what I wanted. Iksar better? Oh yeah. But it’s not what I wanted. If he wants a barbarian he should make one.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-27-2022, 05:36 PM

Nothing pointless was stated.

You missed the point entirely. Given the dynamics of how the class plays 25 of any given stat makes or breaks nothing. It’s certainly not important enough to watch the back and forth between Loramin et al bickering about 75 endgame hp from stamina if you can’t buff the extra to max without gear vs the extra mana from the wisdom. Dude asked a simple question and ended up with the dueling banjos repeating the same talking points over and over again. Shamans make their own health/mana work for themselves however they need it to work. Total mana pool matters less than knowing how to use your toolkit and having a complete spell book.

I know you know this. We have raided together. I know you know your shit man. Quit being obtuse.

We got a guy who wanted to roll a new shaman. It doesn’t matter what ratio of points he puts to stamina or wisdom.

If the OP really wants to know what the most important question he could be asking if you really want to min/max it shouldn’t be a question of stats but rather one of race. He’s making a barbarian. That’s fine if that’s what you want to stare at, but compared to having innate regen vs FSI (that’s it’s own can of worms) … either of those is so much more meaningful then where to dump starting stats.

Having said that, I made my monk human because that’s what I wanted. Iksar better? Oh yeah. But it’s not what I wanted. If he wants a barbarian he should make one.

I didn't miss the point, but I apologize for snapping. I just get tired of people answering questions like this with "it doesn't matter". Obviously starting stats don't matter that much, and I have said as much in this very thread.

But when you just say "it doesn't matter", that doesn't help OP. 25 WIS/STA can help you in certain situations, and it is good to know which one will give you more mileage, since you cannot change it later. Some people do get really annoyed with their characters if they have improper starting stats. Some people get annoyed with their characters if they don't like a characters look or name. The more peace of mind OP can get with his starting decisions, the happier he will be.

Knowing he put his points into the right stat will help with that peace of mind.

loramin

07-27-2022, 06:54 PM

Knowing he put his points into the right stat will help with that peace of mind.

Actually, OP's mind seemed pretty peaceful on page 1, long before you entered the chat:

Thank you for your input, this touches on my concerns nicely :)
Yeah, I was planning on primarily soloing and adventuring, maybe the odd group here or there but I wasn’t exactly planning on raiding. I think I’ll go stamina then.

I think your posts had nothing to do with wanting to set anyone's mind to peace, and everything to do with you proclaiming how smart you are, and how right your opinions are.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-27-2022, 06:57 PM

Actually, OP's mind seemed pretty peaceful on page 1, long before you entred the chat:

I think your posts had nothing to do with wanting to set anyone's mind to peace, and everything to do with you proclaiming how smart you are, and how right your opinions are.

You really need to stop projecting fantasies on to other users. It just causes you to lose objectivity when reading posts. It's a very bad habit. This thread is also not just for OP, since other people besides him read it. It isn't like each thread is restricted to being read by OP alone.

Troxx

07-28-2022, 12:01 AM

Loramin … I like you. You’re old guard but in this thread I vote you out-foxed and frankly just … not the best source to listen to.

Be a little more open minded and flexible buddy. You lost the logic debate here handily … like in the first 2-3 pages.

Be safe.

Naethyn

07-28-2022, 12:08 AM

I recant everything I said and I go with what the guy in the polar bear hat says for shaman related things.

eqravenprince

07-28-2022, 08:56 AM

You really need to stop projecting fantasies on to other users. It just causes you to lose objectivity when reading posts. It's a very bad habit. This thread is also not just for OP, since other people besides him read it. It isn't like each thread is restricted to being read by OP alone.

Exactly.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 11:51 AM

Just to be thorough, there is one reason why you would want to dump into STA as your starting stat. That is to save a buff slot by capping STA without the need for Riotous Health and/or Primal Essence. Saving buff slots is very useful, and not always easy to do.

However, I myself run at full buffs and don't really feel the need to reduce my buff count by one. Shamans do run out of useful buffs to cast on themselves. This strategy would only really be useful to someone who knows the game well, and is anticipating running a specific set of buffs that would be hindered by having Riotous Health present.

loramin

07-28-2022, 03:21 PM

Just to be thorough, there is one reason why you would want to dump into STA as your starting stat if you play exactly like I do.

FTFY

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 03:33 PM

FTFY

You need to learn how to read lol. I am helping people out by giving them information on when starting stats can be useful. You are just being a child.

loramin

07-28-2022, 03:42 PM

You need to learn how to read lol. I am helping people out by giving them information on when starting stats can be useful. You are just being a child.

You are making proclamations about what's "best" for you, as if it was best for everyone ... when it's not. I'm calling you out on it. How childish of me.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 03:46 PM

You are making proclamations about what's "best" for you, as if it was best for everyone ... when it's not. I'm calling you out on it. How childish of me.

Except I am not, and you are not calling out anything. How many ways do you think there are to play this game? You have this strange idea there are thousands of possibilities when picking starting stats, and I happened to just pull one of them out of thin air to serve my purposes lol.

loramin

07-28-2022, 03:52 PM

Simple example: there are, objectively, more than one reason to pick Stamina ... and yet you claimed:

Just to be thorough, there is one reason

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 03:57 PM

Simple example: there are, objectively, more than one reason to pick Stamina ... and yet you claimed:

You are just being a spoiled child. You are angry because your "reasons" for picking STA aren't very good, which is why I didn't include them. In reality (not Loramin world), 75HP at level 60 or 30ish HP at level 30 isn't going to help you in a significant way. That is fact, regardless of whether you can accept it. Removing the need for a buff is going to factually help you more than 75HP, and thus it is worth mentioning.

WIS is harder to cap, and thus in general you will get a better stat distribution when starting with points in WIS. You will cap STA and have higher WIS simultaneously. Don't take my word for it, look at all the Shaman items in the game and all the buffs. You will see it is easier to cap STA in this era, without raid gear.

There really is no other way to see it. STA and WIS only increase HP/Mana, so the scope of how the starting stats affect your gameplay is quite narrow. It isn't some starry field with endless possibilities.

loramin

07-28-2022, 04:04 PM

You are just being a spoiled child. You are angry because your "reasons" for picking STA aren't very good, which is why I didn't include them. In reality (not Loramin world), 75HP at level 60 or 30ish HP at level 30 isn't going to help you in a significant way. That is fact, regardless of whether you can accept it. Removing the need for a buff is going to factually help you more than 75HP, and thus it is worth mentioning.

WIS is harder to cap, and thus in general you will get a better stat distribution when starting with points in WIS. You will cap STA and have higher WIS simultaneously. Don't take my word for it, look at all the Shaman items in the game and all the buffs. You will see it is easier to cap STA in this era, without raid gear.

There really is no other way to see it. STA and WIS only increase HP/Mana, so the scope of how the starting stats affect your gameplay is quite narrow. It isn't some starry field with endless possibilities.

Unlike you, I don't need to resort to insults or personal attacks to make a logical argument.

Simple question: which is more valuable to a Shaman leveling up: HP or mana? Which will make them level faster?

I submit that HP will. As evidence, I've never in my leveling life ever (not even once) died because I started a fight at max mana, burned through 100% of it, and then died because I didn't have more mana. But I have died (many times) when I started at max HP, burned through all my HP, and died for lack of a few more.

To be clear, if you're not starting at max, your maximums are irrelevant: if you start a fight with 500 mana, it doesn't matter whether you could have started that fight with 600 mana or 6000 mana.

So, what's your evidence that having more maximum mana helps you level faster? Or do you agree, HP will help you level faster?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 04:10 PM

Unlike you, I don't need to resort to insults or personal attacks to make a logical argument.

I keep making the same points, and you keep ignoring them and not offering any evidence to the contrary ... but you've won the discussion because you declare it so. I bow down to your superior EQ knowledge.

I'm a human trying to have a conversation: converse with me, talk about what I'm talking about ... don't chime in with a two sentence sound bite that ignores every point I've made and declare you've won the (imaginary) battle in your head.

Actually, OP's mind seemed pretty peaceful on page 1, long before you entered the chat:

I think your posts had nothing to do with wanting to set anyone's mind to peace, and everything to do with you proclaiming how smart you are, and how right your opinions are.

Honest question: Do you have memory issues? You started the insults and personal attacks in this thread, and your last one was a page ago. I am just responding in kind. If you want to avoid personal attacks, don't start them:)

Simple question: which is more valuable to a Shaman leveling up: HP or mana? Which will make them level faster?

I submit that HP will. As evidence, I've never in my leveling life ever (not even once) died because I started a fight at max mana, burned through 100% of it, and then died because I didn't have more mana. But I have died (many times) when I started at max HP, burned through all my HP, and died for lack of a few more.

To be clear, if you're not starting at max, your maximums are irrelevant: if you start a fight with 500 mana, it doesn't matter whether you could have started that fight with 600 mana or 6000 mana.

So, what's your evidence that having more maximum mana helps you level faster? Or do you agree, HP will help you level faster?

This question has been answered thoroughly in this thread. You need to re-read it, because you clearly cannot be bothered to read.

loramin

07-28-2022, 04:16 PM

Honest question: Do you have memory issues? You started the insults and personal attacks in this thread, and your last one was a page ago. I am just responding in kind. If you want to avoid personal attacks, don't start them:)

I suppose I could be more respectful, but I never resorted to name-calling (eg. "spoiled child") or attacks as part of my arguments. To the contrary, the only "personal attack" I made against you was completely separate from any argument, and was simply me describing an unflattering pattern of behavior of yours:

I think your posts had nothing to do with wanting to set anyone's mind to peace, and everything to do with you proclaiming how smart you are, and how right your opinions are.

And there is evidence for my point! When you first participated in this very thread you ignored the OP's question (ie. the topic of discussion), and rather than say something to put his mind at peace, you talked about how he made the wrong decision because when he has his VP Hammer he'll hit his cap.

Meanwhile, when it comes to making rational arguments, you pull crap like this as soon as I make a good one:

This question has been answered thoroughly in this thread. You need to re-read it, because you clearly cannot be bothered to read.

Oh the irony ... coming from the guy talking about how caps will be hit by raiders ... in a thread about non-raiding Shaman.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 04:21 PM

I suppose I could be more respectful, but I never resorted to name-calling (eg. "spoiled child") or attacks as part of my arguments. To the contrary, the only "personal attack" I made against you was completely separate from any argument, and was simply me describing an unflattering pattern of behavior of yours:

And there is evidence for my point! When you first participated in this very thread you ignored the OP's question (ie. the topic of discussion), and rather than say something to put his mind at peace, you talked about how he made the wrong decision because when he has his VP Hammer he'll hit his cap.

Meanwhile, when it comes to making rational arguments, you pull crap like this as soon as I make a good one:

Oh the irony ... coming from the guy talking about how caps will be hit by raiders ... in a thread about non-raiding Shaman.

I am responding in kind to your posts. Claiming someone is "having an imaginary battle in their head" with literally no evidence is being disrespectful and insulting. You may not have to social capacity to understand that, but that doesn't mean you are in the right here:) Next time just stick to the facts, and there won't be any insults and disrespect coming back at you.

I am being serious about my response. Multiple users have answered this exact same question multiple times, and you ignored each post. I am not going to post the same information again just so you can ignore it again. You must have skipped over them, or sped read them poorly.

loramin

07-28-2022, 04:26 PM

So you said:
Just to be thorough, there is one reason why you would want to dump into STA as your starting stat.

Then I tried to point there is more than one reason, and that you are incorrect, and you respond:

Multiple users have answered this exact same question multiple times, and you ignored each post. I am not going to post the same information again just so you can ignore it again. You must have skipped over them, or sped read them poorly.

Well, DeathsSilkyMist has declared there is only one reason on page 18, and now if anyone tries to show he's wrong, he'll just refuse to argue and refer them to the previous 18 pages ... without any specific logical refutation whatsoever. Seems like he has a solid argument to me :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, it seems to me if something has been repeated multiple times already, and is central to the entire case you're so confident you're making, it should be trivial for you to summarize it in only a few sentences. But what do I know?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 04:28 PM

Loramin: Tries to point there is more than one reason, and DeathsSilkyMist is incorrect.,

Well, DeathsSilkyMist has declared there is only one reason on page 18, and now if anyone tries to show he's wrong, he'll just refuse to argue and refer them to the previous 18 pages without any specific logical refutation whatsoever. Seems like a solid argument to me.

Meanwhile, it seems to me if something has been repeated multiple times already, and is central to your entire logical argument, it should be trivial for you to summarize it in only a few sentences. But what do I know? :rolleyes:

The only reason why you think this is because you didn't read all of the posts earlier in the thread detailing why STA isn't relevant while leveling. It is not my fault you missed all those posts.

I have summarized it in a few sentences multiple times lol, something you don't know because you didn't read the thread.

loramin

07-28-2022, 04:29 PM

Truly the mark of a strong argument is that you can't be arsed to write a few sentences explaining it.

I mean, in the last couple posts you wrote eight sentences: you truly can't explain why Mana > HP for leveling in eight sentences? You can't even give a hint?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 04:30 PM

Truly the mark of a strong argument is that you can't be arsed to write a few sentences explaining it.

I did. You didn't read it. Why should I assume you will read it now? You couldn't even read the edit tab on Magelo when checking to see if two Magelos were made by different people.

loramin

07-28-2022, 04:43 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 04:47 PM

We're up to eleven sentences. So instead of telling me I can't make an argument because you made one on page 18 and now no one else can (because now we're on page 19, and 18 was the cut-off?) ... you couldn't have simply explained your point of view in eleven sentences?

Does it truly take more than eleven sentences to even suggest the logic of why Mana would be better than HP for leveling?

Just go back and read the thread, post the quotes here, and respond. That will show you are able to read, and we can have a conversation again. I get tired of posting information multiple times that you don't read.

loramin

07-28-2022, 04:54 PM

You seem to equate "not reading" with "not agreeing with you". I'm sure it's easy to win every argument when you can simply reduce all opposition that way.

And yet ... wasn't it you (in a post made directly to me) who wrote:

This thread is also not just for OP, since other people besides him read it. It isn't like each thread is restricted to being read by OP alone.

I guess the last thing those "other people" will read in this thread ... other than you avoiding addressing my point for (now) fourteen sentences ... is my very reasonable/logical point that:

I've never in my leveling life ever (not even once) died because I started a fight at max mana, burned through 100% of it, and then died because I didn't have more mana. But I have died (many times) when I started at max HP, burned through all my HP, and died for lack of a few more.

And I'm ok with that :)

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 04:58 PM

You seem to equate "not reading" with "not agreeing with you". I'm sure it's easy to win every argument when you can simply reduce all opposition that way.

And yet ... wasn't it you (in a post made directly to me) who wrote:

I guess the last thing those "other people" will read in this thread ... other than you avoiding addressing my point for (now) fourteen sentences ... is my very reasonable/logical point that:

And I'm ok with that :)

You have shown you cannot bother to read what people post, and then you mark it as a "victory". Anybody can read this thread and find all the information they could possibly want, with the exception of yourself apparently.

PatChapp

07-28-2022, 05:23 PM

Endgame the only difference is stun immunity anyway. Barb shaman do fine

loramin

07-28-2022, 05:24 PM

Anybody can read this thread and find all the information they could possibly want

Absolutely! And that's why I gave up trying to argue several pages ago, when the topic changed: everyone was just talking past each other, so I figured there was no point in continuing ... but I was ok with that, because anyone with a brain could still read and follow my arguments up to that point.

But then you felt the need to resurrect your argument on page 18, so now (thanks to you) everyone gets one last chance to re-read one of my central points ... and see your inability to address it :)

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 05:31 PM

Absolutely! And that's why I gave up trying to argue several pages ago, when the topic changed: everyone was just talking past each other, but that was ok because anyone with a brain could still read and follow my arguments up to that point.

But then you felt the need to resurrect the argument on page 18, so now (thanks to you) everyone gets one last chance to re-read one of my central points, and see your inability to address it :)

People could have read your points earlier in the thread. Why do you care that you got to copy/paste your incorrect idea that has already been disproven at the end of this thread?

I didn't "resurrect" the argument. This thread was still near the top of the first page. I thought of some useful information, and posted it to help other people out.

You decided to attack me instead of have a discussion in response to that. You are the one being aggressive here, but whenever someone points it out or fights back you cry "why are you insulting me?" It's just silly. The post history is there lol, it isn't like people cannot go back and look.

loramin

07-28-2022, 05:40 PM

People could have read your points earlier in the thread. Why do you care that you got to copy/paste your incorrect idea that has already been disproven at the end of this thread?

I didn't "resurrect" the argument. This thread was still near the top of the first page. I thought of some useful information, and posted it to help other people out.

You decided to attack me instead of have a discussion in response to that. You are the one being aggressive here, but whenever someone points it out or fights back you cry "why are you insulting me?" It's just silly. The post history is there lol, it isn't like people cannot go back and look.

You keep talking about people reading for themselves, and yet when they look at the last few pages what will they see? They'll see me making a dispassionate argument, backed up with a reasonable explanation based on my experience playing a Shaman.

They'll also see you not responding with any kind of logic or evidence, but calling me a spoiled child and wasting who knows how many (I've lost count?) sentences ... to say that you can't be bothered to write a few sentences (with logic or evidence).

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 05:45 PM

You keep talking about people reading for themselves, and yet when they look at the last few pages what will they see? They'll see me making a dispassionate argument, backed up with a reasonable explanation based on my experience playing a Shaman.

I'm also confident they'll see you not responding with any kind of logic or evidence, but calling me a spoiled child and wasting who knows how many (I've lost count?) sentences ... to say that you can't be bothered to write a few sentences (with logic or evidence).

Who was it who posted FTFY right after my post (and thus started this whole discussion)? Not sure how that is "logical and dispassionate". It's just snarky and trolly, without any "logic" to explain why you disagree.

You have a very delusional view of yourself if you aren't trolling.

Again, I simply posted some information that was helpful, and you responded with trolling.

loramin

07-28-2022, 05:50 PM

Ok :rolleyes:

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 05:55 PM

Ok :rolleyes:

People can go back and read the post history, so I am not sure why you think you are in the right here. The facts are obvious to see. If you were the "logical and dispassionate" arguer you claim to be, you wouldn't type "FTFY" without any logic or reason behind it:)

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 07:09 PM

I'll repost the analysis for readers who actually want to learn and/or have a discussion. I also have a prediction. Loramin will not read it, and proceed to ask the same questions that have already been answered. If he doesn't do that and actually reads/responds to it, then we will have taught Loramin to read. A win/win either way in my book.

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

loramin

07-28-2022, 08:18 PM

So after all that it turns out you do want to keep going after all!

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

All true ... and yet it also remains true that a non-raid Shaman will likely spend 95+% of their Shaman career without hitting the cap.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

You can keep repeating "the only reason is" until you're blue in the face, but it's neither evidence nor a logical argument. Although I do agree that a Shaman could save a buff slot as you describe, it's entirely irrelevant to this thread because non-raid Shaman don't hit buff limits either.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

This is a variant of the "stats don't matter argument ... which amuses me because only a few pages ago you were arguing on the other side of that debate:

The funny thing is if you think gear is important, you think stats are important hehe. 25 points into WIS/STA is a lot gear-wise. That on average is at least 3 pieces of gear's worth, assuming it has a higher than average WIS/STA of 8+.

So are starting stats "at least 3 pieces of gears worth" or do they "NOT really help you during the leveling process"? Personally, I'd say both: stats (whether starting or from gear) largely don't matter.

But to the extent they do matter ... having more HP > Mana.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

Again, a variant of the "stats don't matter" argument, and again ... I 100% agree! Clickies (and regen, and FT, and the JBB, and the epic, and ...) all matter more than maximum stats. But again, all you can get from your starting stats are more max HP and more max Mana, and the HP is more valuable.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

Wow, so your best evidence that Mana > HP is that ... you kinda came close to running out of mana ... and also HP ... in an 17+ minute fight (a fight where you exchanged HP and mana about a gazillion times by casting spells). A fight which, I might add, is not something a 1-59 Shaman can do, or even a 60 Shaman without Torpor (and some decent gear too I'd imagine).

In other words, even if Mana > HP in that fight ... it still doesn't change the fact that HP > Mana for the 95+% plus of the Shaman's career before that.

So just to recap, the reasons (multiple) to choose Stamina for your starting stat points over Wisdom are:

to free up a buff slot if you are a hardcore raider
to have more HP (which is more valuable than mana) for the vast majority of your Shaman's life, if you are not

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 08:31 PM

All true ... and yet it also remains true that a non-raid Shaman will likely spend 95+% of their Shaman career without hitting the cap.

Your understanding of what gear a non-raid Shaman can get is simply way off base. Please stop saying this unless you can actually provide evidence for it. Show us some Magelos of what you think a "non-raid" Shaman looks like 95% of the time. And if you use someone so poor that they are just in Banded, then again starting stats don't matter. You have bigger problems (i.e. poor gear).

You can keep repeating "the only reason is" until you're blue in the face, but it's neither evidence nor a logical argument. Although I do agree that a Shaman could save a buff slot as you describe, it's entirely irrelevant to this thread because non-raid Shaman don't hit buff limits either.

Please tell me how it isn't a logical argument, besides you just saying so. You haven't provided any evidence. You can easily hit max buffs self buffed on a Shaman lol, and you don't need to be in a raid to get buffs from other people. I am hitting max buffs in the bravatar video, and that's all self buffed.

This is a variant of the "stats don't matter argument ... which amuses me because only a few pages ago you were arguing on the other side of that debate:

But to the extent they do matter ... having more HP > Mana.

I think you missed the point of my quote. I was pointing out the flaw in the "starting stats don't matter argument". You can say that starting stats don't matter that much, AND one choice is superior over the other:) It is not mutually exclusive.

Wow, so your best evidence that Mana > HP is that ... you kinda came close to running out of mana ... and also HP ... in an 17+ minute fight (a fight where you exchanged HP and mana about a gazillion times by casting spells). A fight which, I might add, is not something a 1-59 Shaman can do, or even a 60 Shaman without Torpor (and some decent gear too I'd imagine).

In other words, even if Mana > HP in that fight ... it still doesn't change the fact that HP > Mana for the 95+% plus of the Shaman's career before that.

So just to recap, the reasons (multiple) to choose Stamina for your starting stat points over Wisdom are:

to free up a buff slot if you are a hardcore raider
to have more HP (which is more valuable than mana) for the vast majority of your Shaman's life, if you are not

Your best evidence against putting points into WIS is that you didn't run out of mana while leveling. Which is anecdotal and we can't prove it. I have actual evidence while you have nothing. Unfortunately video evidence trumps random anecdote. In that video I get down to 7% Mana. That is 210 Mana, which is literally what I am getting from the 25 WIS I put into my starting stats lol. This is undisputable video proof of the 25WIS coming in to play.

Furthermore, if you inspect any up and coming Shaman, you will find more Shrunken Goblin Skull Earrings than Star of Eyes, so obviously most people do not mind taking a hit on their max HP for a clickie. If people are willing to lose 35HP for a clickie, I am not sure why you think it is a stretch for them to lose a bit more HP on their starting stats.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 09:19 PM

This quote still surprises me:

You can keep repeating "the only reason is" until you're blue in the face, but it's neither evidence nor a logical argument. Although I do agree that a Shaman could save a buff slot as you describe, it's entirely irrelevant to this thread because non-raid Shaman don't hit buff limits either.

I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

You can also get buffed with things like POTG, which lasts 2 hours, and would take up another buff slot. I do not have POTG on in that video. You don't need to be in a raid to get POTG.

You can also use potions to buff yourself too, and I am not doing that either.

Nothing about my gear is allowing me to hit max buffs. Someone without any raid gear could do the same thing.

ArbiterBlixen

07-28-2022, 10:36 PM

This quote still surprises me:

I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

You can also get buffed with things like POTG, which lasts 2 hours, and would take up another buff slot. I do not have POTG on in that video. You don't need to be in a raid to get POTG.

You can also use potions to buff yourself too, and I am not doing that either.

Nothing about my gear is allowing me to hit max buffs. Someone without any raid gear could do the same thing.

Page 21, i finally learned something. I had no idea inner fire stacked with fos.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-28-2022, 10:44 PM

Page 21, i finally learned something. I had no idea inner fire stacked with fos.

Yup, it's pretty nice if you want a tiny bit of an HP boost for free.

loramin

07-29-2022, 01:20 AM

Your understanding of what gear a non-raid Shaman can get is simply way off base. Please stop saying this unless you can actually provide evidence for it. Show us some Magelos of what you think a "non-raid" Shaman looks like 95% of the time. And if you use someone so poor that they are just in Banded, then again starting stats don't matter. You have bigger problems (i.e. poor gear).

At level 1 you start out with no gear, and as you level, your gear will not hit the caps. Even at 60 as you acquire Torpor (unless for some odd reason you delay it to max stats) you will also have less-than-max stats.

To hit caps with the kind of gear in the magelos posted (the realistic ones, not the "go for max stamina at the expense of all else" ones), as a non-raid Shaman, you need Torpor.

Once you have Torpor and farm some good gear for awhile, you could hit a stat cap! But even if you do, most people will, before too long, move on to another character ... or another game.

EQ is not WoW: you can't take your max-stat gear out to the battlegrounds to use it. Once you have all the toys, there's little else to do here (except raid).

So as I keep saying, for 95+% of a Shaman's life they're focused on getting the end game gear: they only have "endgame gear" at the end.

Please tell me how it isn't a logical argument, besides you just saying so. You haven't provided any evidence. You can easily hit max buffs self buffed on a Shaman lol, and you don't need to be in a raid to get buffs from other people. I am hitting max buffs in the bravatar video, and that's all self buffed.

I should have elaborated: a non-raid shaman will ... for 95+% of his career ... not be getting max buffed. And even at 60 he will likely only rarely have max buffs (eg. before a big fight, but certainly not for an extended farm session).

I'd also note that one of the buffs filling up your slots is Primal Essence ... from an item a non-raid Shaman could never have.

Your best evidence against putting points into WIS is that you didn't run out of mana while leveling. Which is anecdotal and we can't prove it. I have actual evidence while you have nothing. Unfortunately video evidence trumps random anecdote. In that video I get down to 7% Mana. That is 210 Mana, which is literally what I am getting from the 25 WIS I put into my starting stats lol. This is undisputable video proof of the 25WIS coming in to play.

Maybe you missed the part about how you were exchanging Mana <=> HP over the course of that (long) fight, so you can't just blame your starting mana amount on the result? What if you have 7k mana, but never cannibalize once, so you run out: was your max mana the reason you ran out?

Similarly here, if you'd just Torped a bit less and Cannibalized a bit more, you could instead be making the argument that you had low health at the end of the fight. How you played doesn't prove anything.

Furthermore, if you inspect any up and coming Shaman, you will find more Shrunken Goblin Skull Earrings than Star of Eyes, so obviously most people do not mind taking a hit on their max HP for a clickie. If people are willing to lose 35HP for a clickie, I am not sure why you think it is a stretch for them to lose a bit more HP on their starting stats.

Huh? We're talking Wisdom vs. Stamina, Mana vs. HP: I'm arguing HP is better, and you're arguing ... Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is better?

loramin

07-29-2022, 01:23 AM

I am not sure where you get the conviction for this statement, because in the Bravatar video I am self buffed and maxed out on buff slots. The only "raid buff" Shamans get is Primal Avatar and Primal Essence. I do not have Hammer of the Dragonborn, so that is not one of my spells, and you can use regular Avatar lol. Even without Avatar I can still hit the buff limit. I am not using Inner Fire, for example, and that does stack with everything. So if you really cared about 30 HP, you could cast that on yourself, which would take up one more buff slot than what was shown in that video. Again, video evidence.

Who is casting Avatar on themselves (and burning an emerald with each cast) in every fight in their daily play? This is an extreme case.

Again, in 95+% of their play, Shaman are not hitting max buffs. I'd honestly venture to guess 99+%: it's really something they'll only do for their very hardest fights. And again most people aren't just endlessly soloing Western Wastes dragons for months at a time after maxing out their gear: it gets old and they move on.

Troxx

07-29-2022, 04:41 AM

/barf

Loramin …. Dude …

Jimjam

07-29-2022, 07:01 AM

This thread is like watching shamans attrition soloing. Slow, steady, consistent but mainly slow.

Toxigen

07-29-2022, 07:41 AM

/barf

Loramin …. Dude …

whenever lora and DSM start battling its time to walk away

they're both good dudes but man...talk about beating a dead horse / arguing til the cows come home

its 2022 and they're debating shit that literally does not matter at all, ever, not in 1 million cliff golems worth of fighting

Jimjam

07-29-2022, 08:37 AM

Crede

07-29-2022, 09:32 AM

whenever lora and DSM start battling its time to walk away

they're both good dudes but man...talk about beating a dead horse / arguing til the cows come home

its 2022 and they're debating shit that literally does not matter at all, ever, not in 1 million cliff golems worth of fighting

http://www.wingclips.com/system/movie-clips/the-fast-and-the-furious/winning-is-winning/images/the-fast-and-the-furious-movie-clip-screenshot-winning-is-winning_large.jpg

Winning's winning man. It does matter, no matter how big or small.

We all know how this game works, so all we have left is to debate the finer points.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 10:20 AM

At level 1 you start out with no gear, and as you level, your gear will not hit the caps. Even at 60 as you acquire Torpor (unless for some odd reason you delay it to max stats) you will also have less-than-max stats.

To hit caps with the kind of gear in the magelos posted (the realistic ones, not the "go for max stamina at the expense of all else" ones), as a non-raid Shaman, you need Torpor.

Once you have Torpor and farm some good gear for awhile, you could hit a stat cap! But even if you do, most people will, before too long, move on to another character ... or another game.

EQ is not WoW: you can't take your max-stat gear out to the battlegrounds to use it. Once you have all the toys, there's little else to do here (except raid).

So as I keep saying, for 95+% of a Shaman's life they're focused on getting the end game gear: they only have "endgame gear" at the end.

This is just not true. Let's say you have a character that starts out brand new, with no gear. From levels 25-55 you can kill guards. That typically averages out to 200pp per hour. If you do that for 100 hours you have 20000 self made PP while leveling. This is a very casual number too, this isn't hard core farming.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:NewBarbShamCheap This is an example of a character that is basically capped on STA with cheap gear. You could get all of that gear with 20k or less. I am not saying this is absolutely ideal gear, but it's cheap, and a lot of people just buy what they can as they go along. You have yet to provide a Magelo lol, so you clearly don't actually have any evidence for this. You could easily get this gear by level 40ish. This is with 25 points into WIS.

I should have elaborated: a non-raid shaman will ... for 95+% of his career ... not be getting max buffed. And even at 60 he will likely only rarely have max buffs (eg. before a big fight, but certainly not for an extended farm session).

I'd also note that one of the buffs filling up your slots is Primal Essence ... from an item a non-raid Shaman could never have.

Who is casting Avatar on themselves (and burning an emerald with each cast) in every fight in their daily play? This is an extreme case.

Again, in 95+% of their play, Shaman are not hitting max buffs. I'd honestly venture to guess 99+%: it's really something they'll only do for their very hardest fights. And again most people aren't just endlessly soloing Western Wastes dragons for months at a time after maxing out their gear: it gets old and they move on.

I do not have primal essence on. I don't have a Hammer of the Dragonborn, and I said so lol. You can hit max buff slots before 60 without Primal Essence and without Avatar. You don't know what you are talking about.

Maybe you missed the part about how you were exchanging Mana <=> HP over the course of that (long) fight, so you can't just blame your starting mana amount on the result? What if you have 7k mana, but never cannibalize once, so you run out: was your max mana the reason you ran out?

Similarly here, if you'd just Torped a bit less and Cannibalized a bit more, you could instead be making the argument that you had low health at the end of the fight. How you played doesn't prove anything.

I have video proof of how a Shaman would fight a WW Dragon. Your weird theory crafting to try and be right is just nonsense. Come back with some video proof of your +25 STA saving you:)

Huh? We're talking Wisdom vs. Stamina, Mana vs. HP: I'm arguing HP is better, and you're arguing ... Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is better?

The point is simple. People are willing to reduce their maximum HP by 35 to equip a Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. Doing so does not sudden make them way easier to kill. You can sacrifice max HP and not notice it. It's the same thing with the +25 STA. It will not give you a noticeable increase in survivability. Like the +25 WIS, it has a very low, very rare chance to save you.

You've been proven wrong on all your points, and you have no evidence to provide. Please stop spreading bad information just because you are being stubborn.

loramin

07-29-2022, 11:59 AM

This is just not true. Let's say you have a character that starts out brand new, with no gear. From levels 25-55 you can kill guards. That typically averages out to 200pp per hour. If you do that for 100 hours you have 20000 self made PP while leveling. This is a very casual number too, this isn't hard core farming.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:NewBarbShamCheap This is an example of a character that is basically capped on STA with cheap gear. You could get all of that gear with 20k or less. I am not saying this is absolutely ideal gear, but it's cheap, and a lot of people just buy what they can as they go along. You have yet to provide a Magelo lol, so you clearly don't actually have any evidence for this. You could easily get this gear by level 40ish. This is with 25 points into WIS.

Have you ever heard of a "straw man argument"? You're making one without even realizing it.

Yes, if you only go for Stamina and nothing else you could hit the Stamina cap! Straw man achieved! But it's a straw man because it only works IF you buy a Feathered Leggings, Rune Crafter's Helm, Arctic Wyvern gear, etc. ... instead of getting a Ikky BP/Fungi/Vindi VP, a JBB, an instant-click refresh item, buff clickies, resists, wisdom, AC, etc. ... ie. if you don't get the much-more-useful gear options.

Real Shaman don't make it a goal to hit the Stamina cap while ignoring much more useful gear! So if you want to prove something, make a well-geared Shaman who hits the cap: no straw men.

I do not have primal essence on. I don't have a Hammer of the Dragonborn, and I said so lol. You can hit max buff slots before 60 without Primal Essence and without Avatar. You don't know what you are talking about.

You said that in a second post after the first, so I didn't see it. But it still doesn't change the fact that normal Shaman, farming gear, aren't burning emeralds on Avatar or using Stamina-enhancing (or any other) consumables. When you're farming you're trying to make money, not waste it to increase your (mostly meaningless) max stats.

And, if you're not using that stuff ... you're not needing to hit the buff cap. Whatever your 15th (or even 13th or 14th) buff is, it's not doing much. If you really want to discuss it, post all 15 self-cast, non-consumable (and non-PE hammer) buffs you're casting, so we can discuss what the oh-so-valuable 15th buff is actually doing for you.

BTW, these next two quotes particularly amused me, because they're sort of DeathsSilkyMist arguing with himself:

I have video proof of how a Shaman would fight a WW Dragon. Your weird theory crafting to try and be right is just nonsense. Come back with some video proof of your +25 STA saving you:)

DeathsSilkyMist: "+25 Wisdom has so much impact that you can see it in a single 15+ minute long fight (where you Torpor/Cannabalize, ie. exchange HP and Mana, constantly)."

The point is simple. People are willing to reduce their maximum HP by 35 to equip a Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. Doing so does not sudden make them way easier to kill. You can sacrifice max HP and not notice it. It's the same thing with the +25 STA. It will not give you a noticeable increase in survivability. Like the +25 WIS, it has a very low, very rare chance to save you.

Also DeathsSilkyMist: "stats don't matter" ;)

Look, I agree with everyone else in this thread: THIS SHIT DOESN'T MATTER! In any given fight (but especially in one with 15+ minutes of Torporing and Cannabilizing) you will not see a difference from +25 Stamina or +25 Wisdom.

But, if we're theorycrafting about the aggregate impact +25 Wis/Sta will have, over the course of every fight the Shaman is in their entire life ... the HP from the Stamina is going to save their life more often than the Mana from Wisdom.

And then just one more DeathsSilkyMist vs. DeathsSilkyMist
Again, I simply posted some information that was helpful, and you responded with trolling.

You've been proven wrong on all your points, and you have no evidence to provide. Please stop spreading bad information just because you are being stubborn.

Yup, that's you: all helpful info, no trolling.

(But, last I checked, normal/sane people can disagree about something, and discuss it rationally, without resorting to insults the moments their feelings got hurt because they started losing said rational discussion.)

This thread is like watching shamans attrition soloing. Slow, steady, consistent but mainly slow.

its 2022 and they're debating shit that literally does not matter at all, ever, not in 1 million cliff golems worth of fighting

Winning's winning man. It does matter, no matter how big or small.

We all know how this game works, so all we have left is to debate the finer points.

I appreciate the defense Crede, but honestly, I think the others are right: at this point, there are no "winners" in this thread. Both DeathsSilkyMist and I are losers for participating this long :)

But, I'm autistic enough to keep trying to disprove DeathsSilkyMist's falsehoods, so ... let's continue the loser-ness!

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 12:08 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 12:19 PM

You keep moving the goal posts with your "normal non-raid Shaman" idea. Please provide a Magelo showing us EXACTLY what that is. I tried to make a Magelo of a Shaman who has very little money to spend on things like Fungi, JBB, etc. But you are now saying a "normal, non-raid shaman" is going to have Fungi, JBB, etc?

loramin

07-29-2022, 12:25 PM

You provide no evidence for your claims, but me providing actual evidence is a straw man?

As it stands, you have no evidence, and you have been proven wrong via evidence. Please stop.

All you are doing is hurting the community and people reading this thread because you can't admit you are wrong.

Best way to win an argument: ignore everything your opponent says, and when you feel like you're losing don't respond to their points, just insult them and claim they have none :rolleyes:

You keep moving the goal posts with your "normal non-raid Shaman" idea. Please provide a Magelo showing us EXACTLY what that is. I tried to make a Magelo of a Shaman who has very little money to spend on things like Fungi, JBB, etc. But you are now saying a "normal, non-raid shaman" is going to have Fungi, JBB, etc?

I never "moved a goal post". Much earlier I said something like "show me a Magelo" .. to get someone to provide the rope to hang themselves with. That's not "moving a goal post" that's "spell out your argument so we can all see the flaw in it".

And the flaw of showing an unrealistic Stamina-only-focused Magelo is that it doesn't represent how real Shaman gear themselves, so it doesn't provide any "evidence" that real Shaman will hit the stat cap anytime except near the end of their career.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 12:27 PM

Best way to win an argument: ignore everything your opponent says, and just insult them and claim they have no evidence (after they've spent pages making a strong logical argument) :rolleyes:

This is precisely what you are doing:)

I never "moved a goal post". Much earlier I said something like "show me a Magelo" .. to get someone to provide the rope to hang themselves with. That's not "moving a goal post" that's "spell out your argument so we can all see the flaw in it".

And the flaw of showing an unrealistic Stamina-only-focused Magelo is that it doesn't represent how real Shaman gear themselves, so it doesn't provide any "evidence" that real Shaman will hit the stat cap anytime except near the end of their career.

Yes, you are moving goalposts because you have not provided a Magelo in kind:) You are using the tactic of saying "a normal shaman would do X", but whenever someone tries to define what a "normal shaman" is, you change what that definition is to match the current discussion.

So you need to provide us with your definition of a "normal, non raid shaman" so we can see what they would have, and what they could achieve. Otherwise you are just being disingenuous.

loramin

07-29-2022, 12:29 PM

This is precisely what you are doing:)

Yes, you are moving goalposts because you have not provided a Magelo in kind:) You are using the tactic of saying "a normal shaman would do X", but whenever someone tries to define what a "normal shaman" is, you change what that definition is to match the current discussion.

So you need to provide us with your definition of a "normal, non raid shaman" so we can see what they would have, and what they could achieve. Otherwise you are just being disingenuous.

No, I didn't provide exactly that on page 1 of this thread ...

I played Loramin on Blue for at least half a decade, yet I never got him true "high-end gear". He just has "best in slot" gear for a non-raider or casual guild raider ... which doesn't suck either (https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Loramin): a full suit of TOV armor (except for a Vindi BP upgrade), Lodi Shield, +6 neck, Shawl, the Chardok ring, etc. I still have a few more things to acquire (eg. Spirit Wracked Cord) ...

... and yet, Loramin only has 175 stamina. That's 225 self-buffed, which is still more than 25 away from the cap. Also, I think I put most/all of my starting points into Stamina.

What was that about how you were so good at reading threads, and I was so bad at it?

battins

07-29-2022, 12:31 PM

Smaller the mana pool means the shorter your smoke break. Get the larger mana pool and go afk longer. Live the high-life.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 12:32 PM

Provide a magelo on what a "normal shaman" looks like, so we can all be on the same page. Are you saying normal Shaman's all have their epic?

loramin

07-29-2022, 12:36 PM

Provide a magelo on what a "normal shaman" looks like, so we can all be on the same page. Are you saying normal Shaman's all have their epic?

/sigh by the time they are hitting their maximum Stamina cap, yes. An epic is just a little more useful than +however much Stamina.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 12:37 PM

/sigh by the time they are hitting their maximum Stamina cap, yes.

If a Shaman can afford their epic, they can max their STA. How is this disproving my previous points?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 12:42 PM

And if you are talking about a pre level 60 Shaman, please show us a Magelo of that, because Loramin is NOT that hehe.

loramin

07-29-2022, 12:46 PM

Smaller the mana pool means the shorter your smoke break. Get the larger mana pool and go afk longer. Live the high-life.

At first I was going to ignore this as a flippant comment, but you actually have a good point :) If your playstyle means burning through your Mana and HP in one or two fights, and then AFK medding until you are full ... ie. if you're playing "Wizard-style" (or actually this is how I soloed my Cleric, so maybe I should say "Cleric-style"), that's different.

Even with that playstyle, at 39 (once you get chloroplast and can recover HP quickly in downtime also) you'll want to be using your max HP just like you use your max Mana. Also, if you can't kill an extra mob using the extra mana, it's meaningless, so the +25 Wisdom would only help some small fraction of the time (when it makes the difference between being able to kill 2 vs. 3 mobs in a row).

So, with that style, from 1-38, it comes down to "will the few (if any) times you can kill an extra mob outweigh the few (if any) times having more HP saves your life?" Since avoiding one death is worth a lot more than getting one more kill, and I tend to think most of the time 25 Wis won't be enough to give you an extra kill, I'd lean towards thinking the HP is still more valuable ... but it's definitely a less clear case.

loramin

07-29-2022, 12:50 PM

If a Shaman can afford their epic, they can max their STA. How is this disproving my previous points?

And if you are talking about a pre level 60 Shaman, please show us a Magelo of that, because Loramin is NOT that hehe.

First off, I want to point out you've still just given up contesting any of the points I made previously. We had a good faith discussion going on: I was making rational points, you were making rational points (laced with insults) ... and then, when my points were clearly shown to be correct, you gave up debating them and started going off about Magelos.

But look, I think any intelligent reader is going to that most know Shaman <60 aren't hitting their Stamina cap, so if saying they will is the hill you want to die on, I'm 100% fine with just ending the discussion right here and leaving it up to the reader.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 12:51 PM

So if your definition of a "normal Shaman" is one with Epic, JBB, Vindi BP, then I am not sure why you have been arguing. You can max STA really easy when you have access to that level of gear.

By your own Magelo, you have disproven your idea that STA > WIS.

And again, if you are arguing pre 60 Shamans, you NEED to provide a Magelo for that. We have provided 4 Magelos so far in this thread that could be obtained before level 60, and you have provided 0.

EDIT: Took out shovel, thought that was a different one. My bad.

loramin

07-29-2022, 12:52 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 12:56 PM

Ok, by ignoring all my points and pointing out that my 175 Stamina Magelo is too good, but hasn't maxxed Stamina (and all those contrived Stamina-only Magelos somehow represent real Shaman), you've clearly won the debate. Let's call it a day.

This is not what happened at all. I did not ignore any points. The point you are missing is that a "normal Shaman" by your definition has 200k + worth of gear lol. You could easily have a few different pieces (and STA pots) to make up any lack of STA you have. I am sorry, but your character is not the only way to build a Shaman:)

And if you continue to argue about pre 60 Shamans, you have to provide a Magelo. I am sorry that you cannot actually back up any points you have made (and it shows). Please back up your points or admit defeat.

loramin

07-29-2022, 01:02 PM

This is not what happened at all. I did not ignore any points.

Bullshit. Anyone can go back just one page to see we were having a conversation. I responded to all of your points, and you just gave up and ignored all of my responses.

Similarly with:
The point you are missing is that a "normal Shaman" by your definition has 200k + worth of gear lol. You could easily have a few different pieces (and STA pots) to make up any lack of STA you have. I am sorry, but your character is not the only way to build a Shaman:)

I'm confident anyone with a brain reading will see my Magelo as an example of the high-end of what a non-raid Shaman will have as gear, and they'll see these contrived Stamina-only Magelos as ... contrived Stamina-only Maeglos. So no need for further debate there, we can drop that point and leave it to the viewing public to decide.

And if you continue to argue about pre 60 Shamans, you have to provide a Magelo. I am sorry that you cannot actually back up any points you have made (and it shows). Please back up your points or admit defeat.

Again, anyone reading can look back a page, see my replies to your long post, and see nothing from you. They can also see the Magelo I posted on page 1 of this discussion. I have nothing further to "prove" on that point, so if you're happy with the posts you've written so far, let's both call it a day.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 01:09 PM

I am sorry, but you have been proven wrong, again.

Your example Magelo https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Loramin shows that your definition of a "normal shaman" has 200k+ worth of gear, and you refuse to show a different interpretation. Factually speaking a Shaman with 200k+ worth of gear can cap STA.

Until you show a different interpretation, you are just playing the game of "a normal shaman is whatever fits my narrative".

Reposting real information for people to read and have an actual discussion about:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

loramin

07-29-2022, 01:25 PM

So now, after dropping the discussion in the middle and not responding to any of my points, you want to just restart things with a brand new wall of text, ignoring my points and staring with the ones you want. You're the king of honest discussion :rolleyes:

But fuck it, let's go anyway.

I am sorry, but you have just been proven wrong.
The best debates are won by people who just keep repeating "I've won" over and over.

Your Magelo shows that your definition of a "normal shaman" has 200k+ worth of gear, and you refuse to show a different interpretation. Factually speaking a Shaman with 200k+ worth of gear can cap STA.

No one disagrees with that: you've shown a Shaman can max their Stamina for much less. But you're willfully ignoring the much larger point, which is that Shaman have lots of benefits they can get from gear, and they are not going to ignore all those other benefits just so they can max their Stamina.

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

Again, no argument from me, at 60 with good gear Stamina is easier to cap ... but still, non-raid Shaman won't be hitting any stat cap until the very end of their career.

2. The only reason

I stopped reading right there: every time you declare "THERE IS ONLY ONE REASON AND I KNOW IT" it shows you're not having a rational discussion, you're just declaring "I AM RIGHT AND NO ONE CAN ARGUE WITH ME".

Make points like a human being, by saying "X is Y" ... not "I DECLARE THERE IS ONLY ONE BELIEF WHICH IS CORRECT: X MUST ALWAYS BE Y!"

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level.

Again, everyone in this thread agrees: stats are largely meaningless. But you can only pick Stamina or Wisdom, not AC or HP Regen or DPS or anything else with your starting stats, and both Wisdom and Stamina scale by level.

But ... the HP from the scaled Stamina will be more valuable than the Mana from the scaled Wisdom, because HP saves you from death and Mana doesn't.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

It will save your life more times than 30 Mana will, and everything else is just you repeating what we all agree: other stuff is better than max Stamina.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

Again, yes, you are correct: +25 Starting Stamina will not save your life often! ... but it will save your life more than +25 Wisdom ... a point I have repeated endlessly in this 24 pages of discussion, and yet you have failed to address in your wall of text.

ArbiterBlixen

07-29-2022, 01:31 PM

My favorite part about all this is Loramin put his starting stats into Wis.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 01:33 PM

ArbiterBlixen

07-29-2022, 01:43 PM

My favorite part about all this is Loramin put his starting stats into Wis.

And I sadly put so much of mine in stamina. =(

loramin

07-29-2022, 01:45 PM

My favorite part about all this is Loramin put his starting stats into Wis.

Good catch!

I genuinely thought I put them in Stamina, but it was nearly a decade ago now, and I didn't even think of checking Magelo. Also, I'm lazy, and didn't want to have to make bag space, take off all my gear, and debuff myself just to check ... but now I guess I have to, and ... Stamina 105, Wisdom 105 (ie. the Magelo is accurate).

So to amend:

... and yet, Loramin only has 175 stamina. That's 225 self-buffed, which is still more than 25 away from the cap. Also, I think I put most/all of my starting points into Stamina.

If I had put 25 in Stamina Lormain would have 200 Stamina, which is 250 self-buffed. Still not capped, but definitely a lot closer than I was suggesting.

It weakens my argument slightly, but doesn't change my central thesis: for 95+% of a Shaman's life (wherever they put their stat points) they will not hit the caps.

loramin

07-29-2022, 01:47 PM

And I sadly put so much of mine in stamina. =(

Why sadly? If there's any consensus in this thread at all it's that starting stats don't matter (even for raid Shaman).

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 01:47 PM

Good catch!

I genuinely thought I put them in Stamina, but it was nearly a decade ago now, and I didn't even think of checking Magelo. Also, I'm lazy, and didn't want to have to make bag space, take off all my gear, and debuff myself just to check ... but now I guess I have to, and ... Stamina 105, Wisdom 105 (ie. the Magelo is accurate).

So to amend:

If I had put 25 in Stamina Lormain would have 200 Stamina, which is 250 self-buffed. Still not capped, but definitely a lot closer than I was suggesting.

... but regardless, it doesn't change my central thesis, that for 95+% of a Shaman's life (wherever they put their stat points) they will not hit the caps.

You need to show evidence for your thesis:) So far I have video evidence and multiple Magelos. Then we can actually have a discussion about it.

ArbiterBlixen

07-29-2022, 01:52 PM

Why sadly? If there's any consensus in this thread at all it's that starting stats don't matter (even for raid Shaman).

Well the rest of the thread aside, I am an ogre lol. Mistakes were make.

loramin

07-29-2022, 02:12 PM

You are the one who has proven time and again they don't read posts. The only thing I can do is move on, because it is clear you can't have a normal discussion about this. You just keep repeating disproven points, and you don't know they are disproven due to lack of reading.

Let's recap: in this thread alone, I didn't use the PE hammer as an example of non-raid Shaman gear, I didn't call me out for not providing a Magelo ... that was provided on page 1, and I didn't simply stop reading/responding in the middle of the conversation (which anyone can see by going a couple pages back).

But keep making (bad) attacks against me instead of logical arguments, I'm sure it's convincing peole :rolleyes:

You can cap STA easily with gear + Riotous Health + an STA potion. Just because you don't like using potions or STA gear, doesn't mean it is harder to cap STA. You have multiple avenues to get tons of STA, and this is not true with WIS.

At the very end of your Shaman career, yes you can. But even at the very end of your career, you still won't be using Stamina potions for most fights, because you don't need them for most fights (again, max stats are not important) and it's not worth wasting the plat/time to make them.

You might well use consumables (potions, root nets, emeralds for Avatar, etc.) at level 60, with Torpor and good gear, to do a really tough fight! But again, you'd do so at the very end, not for 95+% of your Shaman's life.

Provide a Magelo please. You keep refusing to provide evidence for this, other than your 200k+ Magelo of yourself, which can cap STA just fine. So far there are 4 Magelos proving my point against 0 Magelos proving yours.

Another mark of a good debater: they keep bringing up points the other side has already conceded. :rolleyes:

We both agree: it is possible to max your stamina with cheap gear. But you keep burying your head like an ostrich (that's not a real thing BTW) when it comes to addressing the point I won't concede, which is that no real Shaman is going to dedicate their gear to maxing their Stamina! They are going to want other stuff ... stuff like the Shrunken Goblin Earring that you yourself keep saying is so valuable.

This isn't what happened, the post history is clear.

Yeah, you never just declared "the only ___", as if your beliefs were self-established facts; someone else must have written:

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run.

And:

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run.

:rolleyes:

Again, I have provided evidence to the contrary of this. You have provided nothing other than an anecdote. I myself did run out of mana before health while leveling. So evidence wise we are at an impasse there. We both have an unprovable anecdote. But I do have a video, and you do noThis isn't what happened, the post history is clear.t. Factually speaking that video shows how Mana can save your life, and you have no evidence to show how the 75HP is better.

I already clearly rebutted your "evidence" earlier, you just ignored it:
Maybe you missed the part about how you were exchanging Mana <=> HP over the course of that (long) fight, so you can't just blame your starting mana amount on the result? What if you have 7k mana, but never cannibalize once, so you run out: was your max mana the reason you ran out?

Similarly here, if you'd just Torped a bit less and Cannibalized a bit more, you could instead be making the argument that you had low health at the end of the fight. How you played doesn't prove anything.

Meanwhile, even if you could somehow prove that 60 Shaman with Torpor and with Dragon-soloing gear need max mana, it stil wouldn't change the fact that for 95+% of a Shaman's career, HP will be more valuable than Mana.

loramin

07-29-2022, 02:15 PM

Well the rest of the thread aside, I am an ogre lol. Mistakes were make.

:D Well even so, I'm sure stats still don't really matter. I imagine there's no raid whether other Shaman beat you to the slow because of your stats, and no solo encounter that they can do that you can't (or even that they can do noticeably easier).

And you have FSI, which is more than Loramin has!

loramin

07-29-2022, 02:17 PM

You need to show evidence for your thesis:) So far I have video evidence and multiple Magelos. Then we can actually have a discussion about it.

I have ... 24+ pages worth. Maybe you could be a little more specific about what part you disagree with? Do you think most Shaman < 60 are hitting stat caps? Do you think < 60 mana saves more lives than HP? Do you think non-raid Shaman spend most of their time playing the character after they hit 60, get Torpor, and get good gear?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 02:26 PM

I already clearly rebutted your "evidence" earlier, you just ignored it:

Meanwhile, even if you could somehow prove that 60 Shaman with Torpor and with Dragon-soloing gear need max mana, it stil wouldn't change the fact that for 95+% of a Shaman's career, HP will be more valuable than Mana.

The problem is you think anecdotes and poorly constructed logic are rebuttals. I have actual evidence, you do not. You somehow believe being an armchair general when it comes to fighting something like a WW dragon is good enough. When you are in a fight like that, you are making quick decisions based on how the fight is going. Claiming that "you could have theoretically cast your spells more optimally" doesn't really help your argument that 75HP is better, because I could make that same argument in a way that makes mana seem better. Since both arguments are theoretical, it is hard to determine which one is correct without practical application. That is why video evidence is great, because you can see how a fight happens in a practical scenario, rather than an armchair general scenario.

If you honestly believe 25 STA > 25 WIS (starting stats) is true for 95% of a Shaman's life, you need to actually show some evidence for this lol. You claim that I am the one just saying "I am right and you are wrong", but for some reason you believe that your "95% of a shaman's life" argument is somehow beyond question. Why is that? You do know you are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, right? You saying "95% of a shaman's life" is equivalent to "I am right, and you are wrong", because you refuse to define what that means. That is why I am asking for a Magelo, for example, so we can figure out what you are actually talking about.

Let's recap: in this thread alone, I didn't use the PE hammer as an example of non-raid Shaman gear, I didn't call me out for not providing a Magelo ... that was provided on page 1, and I didn't simply stop reading/responding in the middle of the conversation (which anyone can see by going a couple pages back).

But keep making (bad) attacks against me instead of logical arguments, I'm sure it's convincing peole :rolleyes:

This is such a silly point that I have already rebutted. I just used PE hammer as an example of how Shaman's have more STA buffs than WIS buffs. There is no "gotcha" here, it is just a fact. Please stop wasting time on this, because it is just a weak an nonsensical attempt at a "gotcha", and not a valid point.

And yes, people will see that you have been reading posts extremely poorly and then responding with incorrect information. There really isn't much I can do to continue a conversation based on your misreading of it. Resetting was an easier way to try and get you to read the arguments properly. I am not saying it worked too well unfortunately, but it's a waste of time to continue discussing something that you don't have the correct information on. Thinking I have PE on when I don't, for example, taints your understanding of how easy it is to max your buffs out.

At the very end of your Shaman career, yes you can. But even at the very end of your career, you still won't be using Stamina potions for most fights, because you don't need them for most fights (again, max stats are not important) and it's not worth wasting the plat/time to make them.

You might well use consumables (potions, root nets, emeralds for Avatar, etc.) at level 60, with Torpor and good gear, to do a really tough fight! But again, you'd do so at the very end, not for 95+% of your Shaman's life.

I have factually disproven this, please stop saying it. You can cap STA in your 40s with 20k plat or less. Or provide a Magelo for what you think 95% of a Shaman's life is.

Another mark of a good debater: they keep bringing up points the other side has already conceded. :rolleyes:

We both agree: it is possible to max your stamina with cheap gear. But you keep burying your head like an ostrich (that's not a real thing BTW) when it comes to addressing the point I won't concede, which is that no real Shaman is going to dedicate their gear to maxing their Stamina! They are going to want other stuff ... stuff like the Shrunken Goblin Earring that you yourself keep saying is so valuable.

Again, you keep missing all the points. If a Shaman will reduce their max HP by 35 or more via Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring and not notice a difference, they will not notice a missing 75HP. You don't understand when max HP actually matters. The Magelo I posted is not designed to show an optimal Shaman build, it is to show you that a poor Shaman who is a casual player can max STA with little investment. You can't have it both ways: You can't claim that 95% of a Shaman's career won't cap STA because they are not twinked, are too casual, etc., and then turn around and say most Shamans can easily afford Fungi Tunic, so they will just buy that. YOU NEED TO DEFINE WHAT 95% OF A SHAMAN'S LIFE LOOKS LIKE. Otherwise it is just some nebulous term you are throwing around because it can't be disproven.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 02:58 PM

Going to repost this part because I believe it is the crux of our disagreement. I am concerned you will get too distracted on the other points, and misread them, creating further problems.

You need to define what "95% of a Shaman's life" actually looks like. Otherwise that is basically your version of "I am right and you are wrong", which obviously can't be disproven, and we are at an impasse.

The problem is you think anecdotes and poorly constructed logic are rebuttals. I have actual evidence, you do not. You somehow believe being an armchair general when it comes to fighting something like a WW dragon is good enough. When you are in a fight like that, you are making quick decisions based on how the fight is going. Claiming that "you could have theoretically cast your spells more optimally" doesn't really help your argument that 75HP is better, because I could make that same argument in a way that makes mana seem better. Since both arguments are theoretical, it is hard to determine which one is correct without practical application. That is why video evidence is great, because you can see how a fight happens in a practical scenario, rather than an armchair general scenario.

If you honestly believe 25 STA > 25 WIS (starting stats) is true for 95% of a Shaman's life, you need to actually show some evidence for this lol. You claim that I am the one just saying "I am right and you are wrong", but for some reason you believe that your "95% of a shaman's life" argument is somehow beyond question. Why is that? You do know you are doing exactly what you claim I am doing, right? You saying "95% of a shaman's life" is equivalent to "I am right, and you are wrong", because you refuse to define what that means. That is why I am asking for a Magelo, for example, so we can figure out what you are actually talking about.

loramin

07-29-2022, 03:09 PM

I have factually disproven this, please stop saying it. You can cap STA in your 40s with 20k plat or less. Or provide a Magelo for what you think 95% of a Shaman's life is.

Again, DeathsSilkyMist thinks that because he declares something to be a fact, it is :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, as I keep repeating, we both agree that if you focus on Stamina, you can cap Stamina :eek:

But if you try instead to have a good Shaman, one with an instant-click item, a regen item, AC, raw HP, an epic, a JBB, resists, and so on, it's nearly impossible to max Stamina without good (ie. end of game) gear.

So providing a pre-60 Magelo would be pointless: I already provided Loramin, who has far better gear, and yet (even if you fix his starting stats to have +25 Stamina instead) hasn't hit the Stamina cap. What would showing a worse-geared Shaman demonstrate?

Again, you keep missing all the points. If a Shaman will reduce their max HP by 35 or more via Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring and not notice a difference, they will not notice a missing 75HP. You don't understand when max HP actually matters.

The only point you've made is that the earring is better than HP ... and we both agree on that!

The Magelo I posted is not designed to show an optimal Shaman build, it is to show you that a poor Shaman who is a casual player can max STA with little investment.

Again, we both agree they can ... but I disagree that they'd want to. A Shaman is going to want other things (the list I keep repeating over and over) besides Stamina, whatever level they are.

You can't have it both ways: You can't claim that 95% of a Shaman's career won't cap STA because they are not twinked, are too casual, etc., and then turn around and say most Shamans can easily afford Fungi Tunic. YOU NEED TO DEFINE WHAT 95% OF A SHAMAN'S LIFE LOOKS LIKE. Otherwise it is just some nebulous term you are throwing around because it can't be disproven.

You're making a false dichotomy (more dishonest arguing). It's not like the only options are "end game gear" and "use every slot to max your Stamina gear", but you're dishonestly trying to make it sound like there is.

Again, most Shaman will want:

an instant-click item, a regen item, AC, raw HP, an epic, a JBB, resists, and so on

All you need to do to prove your point is show a Magelo that has all those things, but also hits the Stamina cap, without using end-game gear. If your argument is so solid it should be trivial to provide that Magelo: just take Loramin's or one of these all-Stamina Magelos and tweak them a little ... but I don't think you can, because a realistic Shaman will not hit stat caps without end game gear.

The problem is you think anecdotes and poorly constructed logic are rebuttals. I have actual evidence, you do not.

Your "evidence" so far is a video of a fight at the end game, which disproves nothing about the 95% of the Shaman's life leading up to that end game (and neither proves nor disproves anything about being 60 with Torpor/good gear either).

Please concede or provide additional evidence.

Of what? You have to make a claim for me to dispute it, and I have disputed all your claims I care to. Like I keep saying, don't just say (as you essentially are) "you're wrong"; argue against a point I've made. For instance:

I believe realistic/actual Shaman below 60 will hit the stat cap because ____
I believe Mana will save a Shaman's life before 60 more than HP will because ____
I believe that once a Shaman has gotten 60, and Torpor, and good enough gear to max stats, they will spend more than 5% of their total playtime playing that character because _____

You somehow believe being an armchair general when it comes to fighting something like a WW dragon is good enough. When you are in a fight like that, you are making quick decisions based on how the fight is going. Claiming that "you could have theoretically did your spells more optimally" doesn't really help your argument that 75HP is better, because I could make that same argument in a way that makes mana seem better. Since both arguments are theoretical, it is hard to determine which one is correct without practical application.

Great, so you understand why your video didn't prove anything: it's completely arbrirtary how many times you chose to Cannabalize or Torpor during that more-than-15-minute fight, and yet a slight change in your behavior would have resulted in a vastly different amount of HP/Mana at the end of the fight. We're finally on the same page ...

That is why video evidence is great, because you can see how a fight happens in a practical scenario, rather than an armchair general scenario.

/facepalm

Going to repost this part because I believe it is the crux of our disagreement. I am concerned you will get too distracted on the other points, and misread them, creating further problems.

Basically you need to define what "95% of a Shaman's life" actually looks like. Otherwise that is basically your version of "I am right and you are wrong", which obviously can't be disproven, and we are at an impasse.

So you get to just ignore giant posts of rebuttals I make to you, but then you can cherry-pick your favorite argument out of context? More dishonest debating, but again, I'm game!

However, I don't agre with yet another of your "declarations", that I need to define anything. I'm perfectly happy with whoever reads this imagining for themselves how much of a Shaman's life is spent leveling up (a whole hell of a lot), how much is spent getting Torpor (a lot), how much is acquiring end-game gear that will make them hit stat caps (a lot more) ... and how much time the Shaman will get played once they finally have everything or nearly everything they could possibly want.

To me it's self-evident that 95+% is the journey, and only 5% is playing your character once you've gotten them everything; I feel that point stands without any further evidence.

Jibartik

07-29-2022, 03:09 PM

face it deathslymist, before you are born: you're a fly.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 03:39 PM

However, I don't agre with yet another of your "declarations", that I need to define anything.

To me it's self-evident that 95+% is the journey, and only 5% is playing your character once you've gotten them everything; I feel that point stands without any further evidence.

/Thread

You refuse to provide any evidence for your primary thesis, which is 25 STA > 25 WIS for "95% of Shaman's life" (which is still undefined). This means you just have an opinion. It is fine to have an opinion, but it isn't based on any facts within the game, so please do not assert it as such.

You also still have not defined "95% of a Shaman's life", because I don't know what "gotten them everything" actually means. There are multiple gear combinations one player could consider "everything". I also disagree that everybody plays the way you describe. Some people play their characters for years after they hit 60, even if they never raid lol. I am one of those people. I have played at least 40% of Shamwowi's life at level 60.

Until you define "95% of a Shaman's life", you can't assert your opinion as anything other than an opinion.

You have conceded my other points:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

Again, no argument from me, at 60 with good gear Stamina is easier to cap.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

And, if you're not using that stuff ... you're not needing to hit the buff cap. Whatever your 15th (or even 13th or 14th) buff is, it's not doing much. If you really want to discuss it, post all 15 self-cast, non-consumable (and non-PE hammer) buffs you're casting, so we can discuss what the oh-so-valuable 15th buff is actually doing for you.

You have shown that you are willing to admit that Shamans can cap their buffs at least, even before 60. My point has always been that clearing a buff slot can help you if you are thinking ahead about which buffs you want to use on a normal basis. Clearing buff slots is not as easy as putting on stat gear, so it is something to consider because that is a non-standard bonus.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

Look, I agree with everyone else in this thread: THIS SHIT DOESN'T MATTER!

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

Look, I agree with everyone else in this thread: THIS SHIT DOESN'T MATTER!

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

Again, yes, you are correct: +25 Starting Stamina will not save your life often!

But it will save your life more than +25 Wisdom.

You have no evidence to assert this claim, and I have a video where the +25 WIS helped me survive. This is where you need to actually define what "95% of a "Shaman's life" is, so we can see when the STA might be better than WIS. Or you need to provide some data showing how often HP has saved your life vs. mana. You are making the claim, you need to actually show why it is correct. The burden of proof is on you.

loramin

07-29-2022, 04:03 PM

/Thread

You refuse to provide any evidence for your primary thesis, which is 25 STA > 25 WIS for 95% of Shaman's life. This means you just have an opinion. It is fine to have an opinion, but it isn't based on any facts within the game, so please do not assert it as such.

You also still have not defined "95% of a "Shaman's life", because I don't know what "gotten them everything" actually means. There are multiple gear combinations one player could consider "everything".

Until you define "95% of a "Shaman's life", you can't assert your opinion as anything other than an opinion.

Actually, that just seems to be a difference between us: I'm fine with making points (like that most of the time in EQ is spent on the journey, not the destination), and leaving it up to an intelligent reader to decide for themselves whether what I'm saying makes sense to them or not.

You have conceded my other points:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking.

I'll happily concede as much (while pointing out that it's irrelevant, since again no one will hit either cap for 95+% of their life). But I don't agree that:

the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you.

You've gone from objective truth to subjective statement in one sentence. Why would someone base a decision on what will affect them < 5% of the time, when they could base it on what will affect them 95+% of the time?

The only reason

Once again, whenever you start declaring "the only ___ is whatever my opinion is" ... I just stop reading.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level.

Gee, I feel like other people in this thread have also pointed out that starting stats don't matter, and someone argued with them that they do matter ... who could that have been ...

Ok. If you're nauseated, stop reading and making pointless posts. OP is asking a question about starting stats, he isn't asking about how much you personally care about starting stats.

The funny thing is if you think gear is important, you think stats are important hehe. 25 points into WIS/STA is a lot gear-wise. That on average is at least 3 pieces of gear's worth, assuming it has a higher than average WIS/STA of 8+.

Regardless of what either poster said, we all agree (at least some of the time :rolleyes:) that starting stats are inconsequential ... and yet we (yourself included) have spent over 25 pages debating which one is less inconsequential.

I still maintain HP is, and saying "but stats are largely meaningless" won't change that.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times.

Again, stats largely don't matter ... but no matter how many times you repeat this line of reasoning, it won't change the fact that Mana will save your life less than HP does.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying

Yes, they can. But as I keep asking, when you were leveling how many times did you start at full mana (maximums are irrelevant if you aren't using them), burn through all of your mana, and then die at the end for lack of mana?

Conversely, how many times did you start at full HP, but die for lack of HP? I'm 100% ok with letting an intelligent reader ask themselves these questions, and decide for themselves which stat will save their life more often; no further "evidence" is required.

And also, again, your video of a single fight, at 60, with Torpor, with good gear, is no evidence of anything ... but it's especially not evidence of what it's like for the 95+% of the time before you have all that.

You have no evidence to assert this claim, and I have a video where the +25 WIS helped me survive. This is where you need to actually define what "95% of a "Shaman's life" is, so we can see when the STA might be better than WIS.

Again, we don't have to keep talking: there's no reason for you to just keep repeating the same thing over and over. I'm 100% ok with whoever reads this judging the logical arguments I've made, and the "evidence" I've provided (thought experiments like the above, my Magelo, etc.) against your video.

If you feel you've made a strong case, and you feel your video is strong evidence, let's just stop posting here.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-29-2022, 04:09 PM

I am sorry Loramin, but you can't keep making claims and then asking others to provide evidence. It doesn't work that way. I made claims and backed them up with evidence.

You refuse to define your thesis to a point where you could actually persuade me over to your side. The "95% of a Shaman's life" quote is your "I am right and you are wrong" sentence until you can define it.

I want people to get the correct information, and you keep saying STA > WIS as a starting stat when you have provided 0 evidence for this. So until you can actually start providing evidence and defining "95% of a Shaman's life", I will just keep reposting the helpful information people can use to see why WIS > STA as a starting stat most of the time:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.