Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[loramin]

The problem is you are the one who is repeating "95% of a Shaman's life" without defining it

However, I don't agre with yet another of your "declarations", that I need to define anything. I'm perfectly happy with whoever reads this imagining for themselves how much of a Shaman's life is spent leveling up (a whole hell of a lot), how much is spent getting Torpor (a lot), how much is acquiring end-game gear that will make them hit stat caps (a lot more) ... and how much time the Shaman will get played once they finally have everything or nearly everything they could possibly want.

To me it's self-evident that 95+% is the journey, and only 5% is playing your character once you've gotten them everything; I feel that point stands without any further evidence.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Loramin, you are not some special being that just gets to say "I don't have to define something, but it is true anyway". Like everybody else, you need to provide clarity when making an argument, especially when you have a custom definition of what "95% of a Shaman's life" looks like.

Otherwise, I could just say "WIS is greater than STA because I have a special definition of WIS that I am not willing to share". That is exactly what you are doing, but you are saying STA is greater instead.

[loramin]

Loramin, you are not some special being that just gets to say "I don't have to define something, but it is true anyway". Like everybody else, you need to provide clarity when making an argument, especially when you have a custom definition of what "95% of a Shaman's life" looks like.

I'm not some "special being", I'm just an ordinary human ... an ordinary human who expects the other ordinary humans (ie. not you) who read this thread to use their ordinary human brains to decide whether my argument makes sense or not (in this case, my claim that you spend the vast majority of your playtime before you reach the end, not once you've reached it).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not some "special being", I'm just an ordinary human ... an ordinary human who expects the other ordinary humans (ie. not you) who read this thread to use their ordinary human brains to decide whether my argument makes sense or not.

I agree. And the way to do that is to define your terms lol. I do not know what "95% of a Shaman's life" means to you, and you are literally using that as the crux of your argument. That is the fatal flaw in your argument, it rests on an undefined term that nobody but yourself knows.

EDIT: To your edit, what is the "end", and what is "before the end"?

[loramin]

EDIT: To your edit, what is the "end", and what is "before the end"?

In the context of this thread (the one you've been posting in and ostensibly reading for 25+ pages) I would have thought it was pretty clear: when you max out your stats, not because you decided to do so at the expense of all other gear, but because it was the natural thing to do while acquiring the best Shaman gear you could (at level 60, with Torpor).

[Jibartik]

https://i.imgur.com/QgPJYh6.gif

https://i.imgur.com/BBxnSsC.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In the context of this thread (the one you've been posting in and ostensibly reading for 25+ pages) I would have thought it was pretty clear: when you max out your stats, not because you decided to do so at the expense of all other gear, but because it was the natural thing to do while acquiring the best Shaman gear you could (at level 60, with Torpor).

It isn't clear. You have some idea that all Shamans have a specific point at which they cap their stats, and this simply isn't true. You have no evidence to suggest the only time a Shaman will cap their stats is at level 60 with Torpor. I myself was STA capped before level 60 and Torpor https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:ShamwowiPreTorpor

This means your definition (which is still vague and undefined) is obviously not as tight as you claim it to be, and this is just one example.

And to be clear, it wasn't like I had all this gear when I made Shamwowi. The vast majority of my gear was purchased by Shamwowi from his guard killing enterprise. So it isn't like this is something a casual player couldn't do themselves.

[loramin]

It isn't clear. You have some idea that all Shamans have a specific point at which they cap their stats, and this simply isn't true. You have no evidence to suggest the only time a Shaman will cap their stats is at level 60 with Torpor. I myself was STA capped before level 60 and Torpor https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:ShamwowiPreTorpor

This means your definition is obviously not as tight as you claim it to be, and this is just one example.

And to be clear, it wasn't like I had all this gear when I made Shamwowi. The vast majority of my gear was purchased by Shamwowi from his guard killing enterprise. So it isn't like this is something a casual player couldn't do themselves.

I remember that Ogre Magelo from the last time you mentioned in this thread (about Barbarians), like 20 pages ago. But putting the race aside, your Stamina isn't even capped (it's at 201, or 251 with Riotous Health), and it'd be six lower if you actually equipped your JBB.

On top of that you have over 85k of gear (a Fungi, a +6 neck, Othmir Prexus Totem, etc.) ... and Torpor itself only costs 85k. It seems to me most Shaman aren't going to farm 85k of plat before level 60/Torpor ... and even if they do, I'd imagine they'd want to sell it pretty fast, to get plat to buy Torpor.

So, (again) either way, for most of their Shamaning career, (even if there is a very brief pre-Torpor period of hitting a cap) ... most Shaman won't be hitting caps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I remember that Ogre Magelo from the last time you mentioned in this thread (about Barbarians), like 20 pages ago. But putting the race aside, your Stamina isn't even capped (it's at 201, or 251 with Riotous Health), and it'd be six lower if you actually equipped your JBB.

On top of that you have over 85k of gear (a Fungi, a +6 neck, Othmir Prexus Totem, etc.) ... and Torpor itself only costs 85k. It seems to me most Shaman aren't going to farm 85k of plat before level 60/Torpor ... and even if they do, I'd imagine they'd want to sell it pretty fast, to get plat to buy Torpor.

So, (again) either way, for most of their Shamaning career, (even if there is a very brief pre-Torpor period of hitting a cap) ... Shaman won't be hitting caps.

Lol you could easily cap a barbarian too with a similar magelo, the difference is 23 STA. Just switch out the relevant gear for:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Pearly_Sarnak_Bauble
https://wiki.project1999.com/Hammered_Golden_Loop
https://wiki.project1999.com/Crystal_Chitin_Armplates

All obtainable pre level 60 pre Torpor, and all good upgrades/sidegrades.

It is also silly to say 251/255 isn't capped. Are you going to dump 25 into STA so you can get... 4 STA sometimes? I would be capped if I had any of the items above.

And yes I obtained this gear via casual gaming. It really isn't hard to farm 100k, it just takes time. If you kill guards for 2 hours a day (500ish pp per day), you will get 100k in 200 days. That's not too bad in Everquest time for a casual player.

I have shown you an example of a Shaman who indeed capped their gear before 60 and Torpor casually. You haven't shown anything, or defined your terms. Just admit you are wrong.

Also, I had all this gear by level 55, and it took me over 100 hours to go from 55-60, so it wasn't a trivial period in which I had this gear. Plus I didn't have Torpor immediately, so I had some time in 60 without it.

[loramin]

Lol you could easily cap a barbarian too with a similar magelo, the difference is 23 STA. Just switch out the relevant gear for:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Pearly_Sarnak_Bauble
https://wiki.project1999.com/Hammered_Golden_Loop
https://wiki.project1999.com/Crystal_Chitin_Armplates

All obtainable pre level 60 pre Torpor, and all good upgrades/sidegrades.

It is also silly to say 251/255 isn't capped. Are you going to dump 25 into STA so you can get... 4 STA sometimes? I would be capped if I had any of the items above.

And yes I obtained this gear via casual gaming. It really isn't hard to farm 100k, it just takes time. If you kill guards for 2 hours a day (500ish pp per day), you will get 100k in 200 days. That's not too bad in Everquest time for a casual player.

I have shown you an example of a Shaman who indeed capped their gear before 60 and Torpor casually. You haven't shown anything, or defined your terms. Just admit you are wrong.

Also, I had all this gear by level 55, and it took me over 100 hours to go from 55-60, so it wasn't a trivial period in which I had this gear. Plus I didn't have Torpor immediately, so I had some time in 60 without it.

You've shown that if you spend (something like) 200 days you can earn enough plat for Torpor. What you haven't shown is why, instead of spending that plat on Torpor, you'd want to spend it maxing out your Stamina.

But again ... even if you did ... you'd still spend 95+% of your career without hitting your caps. A brief period pre-Torpor, and then a brief period after Torpor (and after you've gotten the gear back to hit caps) before you quit doesn't change all the rest of the time you play your Shaman without hitting the caps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You've shown that if you spend (something like) 200 days you can earn enough plat for Torpor. What you haven't shown is why, instead of spending that plat on Torpor, you'd want to spend it maxing out your Stamina.

But again ... even if you did ... you'd still spend 95+% of your career without hitting your caps. A brief period pre-Torpor, and then a brief period after Torpor (and after you've gotten the gear back to hit caps) before you quit doesn't change all the rest of the time you play your Shaman without hitting the caps.

I didn't spend money maxing out STA lol. I just had some extra money and bought mid-tier items to fill my slots. It's really not that hard to do.

Again, this is the "95% of a Shaman's life" black box which translates to "I am right and you are wrong". You still haven't defined it, so you have nothing to base your opinion on.

The strategy is to acquire Fungi Tunic + JBB + Fungi Staff for leveling before you are level 60 (you can't use Torpor before level 60). Then you can sell all three of them and buy Torpor when you reach 60 and have some XP padding. Torpor is better than all three of those combined, and you can re-buy them with the increased power of your farming capabilities with Torpor:)

Having 100K+ or Torpor itself sitting in your bank while you are level 50 isn't helping you level lol. You might as well buy a Fungi Tunic, JBB, and Fungi Staff for leveling and then re-sell them. It isn't like those items tank in value relatively quickly. It's a pretty safe investment.

[Naethyn]

I started the server as iksar bros with my buddy's necromancer and me on shaman (wis shaman). We leveled to mid 50's until I found a reliable source of iksar bloods. From there I made an ec fat cat converting the iksar bloods into straight platinums using cultural blacksmithing. I saved up 140k and started my warrior (human) with a cloak of flames and a fungi. My buddy made a dwarf cleric. Then we did it all again but this time with human smithing and dwarf smithing. I had to go fishing a lot but I've never made as much in my life as I have off fishing and ec fattcatting them profits off it.

Zero bad decisions were made.

[Naethyn]

https://wiki.project1999.com/images/Iksar_spirit_weaver.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I started the server as iksar bros with my buddy's necromancer and me on shaman (wis shaman). We leveled to mid 50's until I found a reliable source of iksar bloods. From there I made an ec fat cat converting the iksar bloods into straight platinums using cultural blacksmithing. I saved up 140k and started my warrior (human) with a cloak of flames and a fungi. My buddy made a dwarf cleric. Then we did it all again but this time with human smithing and dwarf smithing. I had to go fishing a lot but I've never made as much in my life as I have off fishing and ec fattcatting them profits off it.

Zero bad decisions were made.

That's awesome! Yeah it's really not that difficult to save up platinum if you plan on playing P99 for a while. As I said, even just 2 hours a day can easily translate to at least 500pp per day. You could definitely do better than that I am sure, especially if you have a static group of friends who can help hold money camps while XPing.

[loramin]

I didn't spend money maxing out STA lol. I just had some extra money and bought mid-tier items to fill my slots. It's really not that hard to do.

Again, this is the "95% of a Shaman's life" black box which translates to "I am right and you are wrong". You still haven't defined it, so you have nothing to base your opinion on.

The strategy is to acquire Fungi Tunic + JBB + Fungi Staff for leveling before you are level 60 (you can't use Torpor before level 60). Then you can sell all three of them and buy Torpor when you reach 60 and have some XP padding. Torpor is better than all three of those combined, and you can re-buy them with the increased power of your farming capabilities with Torpor:)

Having 100K+ or Torpor itself sitting in your bank while you are level 50 isn't helping you level lol. You might as well buy a Fungi Tunic, JBB, and Fungi Staff for leveling and then re-sell them. It isn't like those items tank in value relatively quickly. It's a pretty safe investment.

So let's flip this around: what % of a Shaman's life would you say is spent at caps?

Because it seems to me even if we took all your arguments, in 20+ pages of this thread, and accepted all of them, you'd show that ... instead of 95+%, only 93+% is spent at caps ;) And that changes nothing fundamental about my central argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So let's flip this around: what % of a Shaman's life would you say is spent at caps?

Because it seems to me even if we took all your arguments, in 20+ pages of this thread, and accepted all of them, you'd show that ... instead of 95+%, only 93+% is spent at caps ;)

It honestly depends on the player. A casual player could easily spend 50% or more at caps. I did. Most of my play time was level 50-60, or 60 itself. For reference, I got my Shawl 7 at level 52 lol. I just had fun doing the quest, and had a 60 druid help me with the SG stuff. Leveling from 1-50 wasn't that long, because I could gain good XP and money at the same time.

Again, you just have no evidence for your 95% number, and you refuse to explain it. So please stop using it, as it has no bearing on this discussion.

[loramin]

It honestly depends on the player. A casual player could easily spend 50% or more at caps. I did. Most of my play time was level 50-60, or 60 itself. For reference, I got my Shawl 7 at level 52 lol. I just had fun doing the quest, and had a 60 druid help me with the SG stuff. Leveling from 1-50 wasn't that long, because I could gain good XP and money at the same time.

Again, you just have no evidence for your 95% number, and you refuse to explain it. So please stop using it, as it has no bearing on this discussion.

There, we finally have it: you think people spend only half their Shaman time leveling up and acquiring enough gear (again, going for what gear is good, not what gives the most Stamina) to hit the Stamina cap. Then you think they spend the other half still playing despite already having gear that hits Stamina caps.

I'm 100% happy to end the discussion right there, and let anyone insane enough to still be reading this thread decide for themselves who seems to have the more accurate guess.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There, we finally have it: you think people spend only half their Shaman time leveling up and acquiring enough gear (again, going for what gear is good, not what gives the most Stamina) to hit the Stamina cap. Then you think they spend the other half still playing despite already having gear that hits Stamina caps.

I'm 100% happy to end the discussion right there, and let anyone insane enough to still be reading this thread decide for themselves who seems to have the more accurate guess.

And you end the discussion without ever explaining your "95% of Shaman's life" blackbox:) This means you have no foundation for your thesis in this discussion.

Reposting the relevant information that isn't based on a blackbox, to save users some time:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

[Crede]

https://wiki.project1999.com/images/Iksar_spirit_weaver.png

Ugh, I wish my shaman was an iksar

[Danth]

Note that Loramin can cap his stamina out any time he likes. He reaches 250 by using a single cheap stat potion and hits cap if he exchanges his goblin ear for stat ear and star of eyes, no other changes needed. He might not care enough to bother doing that, but the option's always present. Without knowing his equipment--can he increase/cap his mana just as easily if he so chooses?

I'm generally somewhere in the middle on this one, but I think Loramin's "95%" stat could use a disclaimer: That's mainly true of the people who level up a character then more or less retire it shortly after hitting level cap. That applies to a lot of players, to be sure. Some players continue heavily playing characters past that point, for whom the consideration changes. As always, a player should build a character for his own needs rather than trying to follow a one-size-fits-all guide. Suggestions such as in this thread are by necessity of a general nature only and can't always encompass all circumstances.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Note that Loramin can cap his stamina out any time he likes. He reaches 250 by using a single cheap stat potion and hits cap if he exchanges his goblin ear for stat ear and star of eyes, no other changes needed. He might not care enough to bother doing that, but the option's always present. Without knowing his equipment--can he increase/cap his mana just as easily if he so chooses?

I'm generally somewhere in the middle on this one, but I think Loramin's "95%" stat could use a disclaimer: That's mainly true of the people who level up a character then more or less retire it shortly after hitting level cap. That applies to a lot of players, to be sure. Some players continue heavily playing characters past that point, for whom the consideration changes. As always, a player should build a character for his own needs rather than trying to follow a one-size-fits-all guide. Suggestions such as in this thread are by necessity of a general nature only and can't always encompass all circumstances.

Danth

Agreed. I would say though that Shamans probably have a higher rate of being played once they hit 60, because Torpor is a game changer. I would be surprised if a lot of players spend around 100k on spells that cannot be resold and then just stop playing. This is another problem I have with his "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox, because Shamans specifically play significantly different with Torpor. This should extend the life at which someone plays their character. It certainly did for me. If someone has stats that show otherwise I would be quite surprised.

Your logic applies better to characters that can have their gear swapped out at any time. Like if you have a floating Fungi Tunic, Cloak of Flames, etc. to deck out an alt. It's much easier to level them and stop, because you can just move that gear onto whatever new class fits your fancy. With casters it's a bit harder to do that due to how much plat you need to sink into spells. Unless you are someone who can just make money hand-over-fist of course:)

[loramin]

Note that Loramin can cap his stamina out any time he likes. He reaches 250 by using a single cheap stat potion and hits cap if he exchanges his goblin ear for stat ear and star of eyes, no other changes needed. He might not care enough to bother doing that, but the option's always present. Without knowing his equipment--can he increase/cap his mana just as easily if he so chooses?

Serious question (for your wife?): what percentage of the fights does she use potions in? I ask because I use them 0% of the time :)

To me the minor benefit of a few extra starting HP is outweighed by the hassle/cost of having to make the potion. But I'd be curious to hear roughly how often that value outweighs the hassle/cost for someone else.

But back on topic, whatever % that is, it's that % times whatever small % of a Shaman's entire life they have just enough Stamina to hit the cap with a potion, but not without it ... resulting in an even smaller percentage.

So, I don't see my central point much regardless of the percentage ... but I'm still curious to hear it?

I'm generally somewhere in the middle on this one, but I think Loramin's "95%" stat could use a disclaimer: That's mainly true of the people who level up a character then more or less retire it shortly after hitting level cap. That applies to a lot of players, to be sure. Some players continue heavily playing characters past that point, for whom the consideration changes. As always, a player should build a character for his own needs rather than trying to follow a one-size-fits-all guide. Suggestions such as in this thread are by necessity of a general nature only and can't always encompass all circumstances.

Danth

I'm just as in agreement about "not all Shaman" as I was on page 3, when I wrote (in response to you):

Yeah, you're absolutely right: it really matters what you're planning to do with your Shaman, and it's not one size fits all, or even one size fits all non-raiders.

Similarly "not all Shaman" retire after they fill every slot with BiS gear ... but I think most do.

But first, let's forget about "at 60, with Torpor, will full BiS": if we could study the P99 database, I'm willing to bet that less than half of all Shaman even make it to 60. Such players may not post in forums like us crazy people, but they certainly exist.

Then, out of those that do make it, I'd guess a similar good chunk will never acquire the gear to hit the Stamina cap ... ever. Out of whatever % is left, I think it's safe to say that most of those people like acquiring gear in EQ."

But by the very definition, when all your gear is "best in slot", there is nothing left to acquire. Thus, I truly don't think it's a stretch to think most will quit. Hell, I truly think most of what's left will quit well before every last slot is filled with BiS.

And again, when talking about Shaman at large, I think it's safe to say that most will either never hit the Stamina cap, or if they do will hit it for only a small % of their total playtime.

[Danth]

Can't tell you how often she uses it, that's her not me and she doesn't post here. I'd venture not a lot because if we're on, we're duo'ing and she's not getting hit so what does she need max HP for? It's reflective of the difference between a duo'er vs. a solo'er.

If you aren't capping stamina you aren't likely capping mana either so we're back to what's more useful, a bit of health or a bit of mana. That discussion could last forever, as this thread attests! I would venture to suggest that the correct choice, at an individual level, is what gives a player more confidence because in truth the limiting factor in a given shaman's capability is often what he's willing to try.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But first, let's forget about "at 60, with Torpor, will full BiS": if we could study the P99 database, I'm willing to bet that less than half of all Shaman even make it to 60. Such players may not post in forums like us crazy people, but they certainly exist.

Then, out of those that do make it, I'd guess a similar good chunk will never acquire the gear to hit the Stamina cap ... ever. Out of whatever % is left, I think it's safe to say that most of those people like acquiring gear in EQ."

But by the very definition, when all your gear is "best in slot", there is nothing left to acquire. Thus, I truly don't think it's a stretch to think most will quit. Hell, I truly think most of what's left will quit well before every last slot is filled with BiS.

And again, when talking about Shaman at large, I think it's safe to say that most will either never hit the Stamina cap, or if they do will hit it for only a small % of their total playtime.

Why are you jumping to Shamans with BiS gear? That has never been a part of the discussion, unless you are finally pulling something out of your "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox.

I have already shown multiple times you can cap your STA before level 60, without raid gear, and with desirable gear.

I am astounded by the fact that you can look at actual applications of gear on a Shaman and just turn a blind eye, while failing to provide any counter evidence for your claims.

You are factually incorrect when you claim that people will not cap STA until they are at the point at which they quit. You have literally 0 evidence for this, so please stop saying it. You do NOT NEED BiS gear (or even raid gear) to cap STA as a Shaman, even as a Barbarian.

[loramin]

Why are you jumping to Shamans with BiS gear? That has never been a part of the discussion, unless you are finally pulling something out of your "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox.

That's exactly where; you're really bad at following (ie. reading) conversations :p

The context was that we were talking about how long a Shaman would play, and I was making the point that once you get full BiS gear you (by definition) have nothing left to acquire. And once you have nothing left to acquire, most people won't play that character.

So, if you're talking about when a Shaman stops playing, it makes sense to "jump to" (again, not really a jump if you'd read the conversation) BiS gear.

I have already shown multiple times you can cap your STA before level 60, without raid gear, and with desirable gear.

Yes you can, as you keep repeating. But you keep ignoring my points that A) most won't, and B) even if you do get cap-hitting gear pre-Torpor, you're almost certainly going to want to sell it to buy Torpor. Ultimately, it all still fits what I've been saying for 20+ pages: for most of their life, a Shaman won't have stat-capped gear.

You are factually incorrect when you claim that people will not cap STA until they are at the point at which they quit. You have literally 0 evidence for this, so please stop saying it. You do NOT NEED BiS gear (or even raid gear) to cap STA as a Shaman, even as a Barbarian.

Now you're putting words in my mouth: I never claimed "people will not cap STA until they are at the point at which they quit". I've very consistently said that they won't cap any stat for 95+% of their career. Only you could get through 28 pages of conversation and not get the point I've repeated a dozen times about "95+%"

Look, it's clear you don't want to read, or communicate with people like a human being, you just want to mindlessly repeat your same points over and over like an automaton. It's exhausting, and I'm not going to keep participating.

So you have two choices: either make a claim that directly counters the points I've spent over 20 pages detailing ... again, as I said before, something like:

I believe realistic/actual Shaman below 60 will hit the stat cap because ____
I believe Mana will save a Shaman's life before 60 more than HP will because ____
I believe that once a Shaman has gotten 60, and Torpor, and good enough gear to max stats, they will spend more than 5% of their total playtime playing that character because _____


Or else have fun talking to yourself in this thread. I'm not going to answer anymore cherry-picked quotes taken out of context, or the same mindless repetition posts over and over.

[loramin]

Can't tell you how often she uses it, that's her not me and she doesn't post here. I'd venture not a lot because if we're on, we're duo'ing and she's not getting hit so what does she need max HP for? It's reflective of the difference between a duo'er vs. a solo'er.

One more "not all Shaman" point: not all Shaman solo :) And we could probably have a whole other 20+ page thread just about which stat a duoer would benefit more from (my gut says Wisdom, but I have little experience to back that up).

If you aren't capping stamina you aren't likely capping mana either so we're back to what's more useful, a bit of health or a bit of mana. That discussion could last forever, as this thread attests! I would venture to suggest that the correct choice, at an individual level, is what gives a player more confidence because in truth the limiting factor in a given shaman's capability is often what he's willing to try.

100% agree.

[Jibartik]

:o

https://i.imgur.com/12IPkH2.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's exactly where; you're really bad at following (ie. reading) conversations :p

The context was that we were talking about how long a Shaman would play, and I was making the point that once you get full BiS gear you (by definition) have nothing left to acquire. And once you have nothing left to acquire, most people won't play that character.

So, if you're talking about when a Shaman stops playing, it makes sense to "jump to" (again, not really a jump if you'd read the conversation) BiS gear.



Yes you can, as you keep repeating. But you keep ignoring my points that A) most won't, and B) even if you do get cap-hitting gear pre-Torpor, you're almost certainly going to want to sell it to buy Torpor. Ultimately, it all still fits what I've been saying for 20+ pages: for most of their life, a Shaman won't have stat-capped gear.



Now you're putting words in my mouth: I never claimed "people will not cap STA until they are at the point at which they quit". I've very consistently said that they won't cap any stat for 95+% of their career. Only you could get through 28 pages of conversation and not get the point I've repeated a dozen times about "95+%"

Look, it's clear you don't want to read, or communicate with people like a human being, you just want to mindlessly repeat your same points over and over like an automaton. It's exhausting, and I'm not going to keep participating.

So you have two choices: either make a claim that directly counters the points I've spent over 20 pages detailing ... again, as I said before, something like:



Or else have fun talking to yourself in this thread. I'm not going to answer anymore cherry-picked quotes taken out of context, or the same mindless repetition posts over and over.

Again, none of this is true, and has been disproven in this thread multiple times. I am not ignoring your points, you just aren't defining your "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox. Saying "I am right and you are wrong" isn't an argument, even if you try to disguise it as "95% of a Shaman's life". I am not sure what world you live in where the last 5% of your playtime isn't nearly the point at which you quit hehe. The problem isn't my communication skills. The problem is you have a real issue with admitting you are wrong, which is why you cling to the "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox. It can't be disproven, so you feel safe with it. If I have been mistaken about this, please define your "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox so we can have a discussion about it. I myself capped my STA well before 95% of my life. It was closer to 50%. You can't even tell us where you got this statistic lol.

Reposting the relevant information that isn't based on a blackbox, to save users some time:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

[Toxigen]

12 days and 28 pages later these same spergs are going at an utterly meaningless debate

lmao

[Cen]

The mana you get per wisdom point is obviously much higher, and mana capacitance helps on a between pulls basis. I will say that you likely won't go wrong with any allocation involving wisdom and stamina to a high degree.

As a shaman without outside help, it's easier to have more stats close to max self buffed with more points toward wisdom, I feel. After all, can't buff wisdom!

[Troxx]

12 days and 28 pages later these same spergs are going at an utterly meaningless debate

lmao

I do believe ROFLCOPTERS are in order.

[ArbiterBlixen]

@Loramin

Here's is what Prot's attacks look like after he is slowed.

[loramin]

@Loramin

Here's is what Prot's attacks look like after he is slowed.

I see why you'd want to root him :)

[Raj]

12 days and 28 pages later these same spergs are going at an utterly meaningless debate

lmao

Rofl :cool:

[Kich867]

Just because I'm interested, a lot of this conversation revolves around some fantasy bullshit almost no one is going to actually acquire.

What would your stat allocation be for a normie who probably won't hit 60 and just wants to group / duo with a friend here and there?

I picked troll shammy.

[Jimjam]

Just because I'm interested, a lot of this conversation revolves around some fantasy bullshit almost no one is going to actually acquire.

What would your stat allocation be for a normie who probably won't hit 60 and just wants to group / duo with a friend here and there?

I picked troll shammy.

Most my scumbag alts I dump strength. Even casters, and even classes that can already buff strength. The QOL is huge. It's the only stat that feels like it makes a difference early on (beside maybe charisma) too.

[Toxigen]

Just because I'm interested, a lot of this conversation revolves around some fantasy bullshit almost no one is going to actually acquire.

What would your stat allocation be for a normie who probably won't hit 60 and just wants to group / duo with a friend here and there?

I picked troll shammy.

Wisdom, 100%.

Trolls get plenty of str and sta

[Kich867]

Wisdom, 100%.

Trolls get plenty of str and sta

Ok cool that's what I did. Thx.

[ArbiterBlixen]

After maxing both sta and wis, i kind of wish I chose agility.

[jolanar]

Most my scumbag alts I dump strength. Even casters, and even classes that can already buff strength. The QOL is huge. It's the only stat that feels like it makes a difference early on (beside maybe charisma) too.

As someone who likes to loot everything, I agree with this statement.

Additionally there is a pretty big charisma cut offs at 62 and 76 and I *think* 91? that it might be worth putting a couple points into charisma. For example if your class/race starts with 75 CHA, you can get a pretty big boost in prices by putting one point to make it 76. That is IF your ODC can handle uneven stat point distribution lol.

[Byrjun]

This post is a little old (sorry) but I think these kinds of discussions are interesting.

What would your stat allocation be for a normie who probably won't hit 60 and just wants to group / duo with a friend here and there?

I picked troll shammy.

First thing to look at is the starting stats:

Iksar
STA: 75
WIS: 90

Ogre
STA: 127
WIS: 77

Troll
STA: 114
WIS: 70

Barbarian
STA: 100
WIS: 80

Let's get the easy one out of the way... Iksar start with really low stamina but also with the highest wisdom. I always go full stamina on Iksar shaman which gives a total of,

STA: 100
WIS: 95

Ogre is the other extreme with 127 stamina and 77 wisdom. In my experience if you spend heavily into stamina you'll just end up equipping a bit more wisdom gear anyways. So for Ogre I'll do the opposite and go for max wisdom at the start (25 wis 5 sta).

Also worth noting that Ogres start with 70 agility; some people like to put 5 points into agility but I think this tends to be a waste and I'd rather just cast an agi buff on myself until I'm at 75 agi from gear.

STA: 132
WIS: 102

Troll is similar to Ogre but with a worse stat spread. They have the worst starting wisdom so I also tend to go +25 wisdom and +5 stamina for Trolls.

STA: 119
WIS: 95

Which leaves us with Barbarian, which are somewhere in the middle. I think this makes it more difficult to decisively choose the "best" stat spread and that's probably why the thread was initially about Barbarians.

I played a Barbarian shaman on blue many years ago (during Kunark) and I felt that 100 stamina was a bit low so I went with +25 stamina and +5 wisdom. I also ended up raiding quite a bit although I expected to only play casually when I initially created the character. The spread worked out about perfectly; I'm around 225 stamina with Riotous Health + Primal Essence. If I had continued raiding into Velious I likely would have run up against the stamina cap, but very few players are going to get that sort of gear.

So generally, I think I'd still recommend the stamina-focused spread for Barbarians, but if you think that you're in Velious and expect to get pretty good gear you can do something like a 15/15 split:

STA: 115
WIS: 95

Which puts us pretty close to the Troll starting stats.

I think the tl;dr here is that while we can buff our own stamina by quite a bit, stamina is also a bit better for us and it's more difficult to find on gear compared to wisdom.

You're probably not going wrong as long as you're putting your points into some combination of stamina and wisdom, with the exception of Iksar who really should go +25 sta +5 wis.

I've found that it's possible to both focus too much on HP (neglecting mana) and to focus too much on mana (neglecting HP). But once you have a large enough mana pool investing in HP is going to have a bit of a better payoff in combat.

[Allishia]

I still say go wis. I'm cheap on my shaman and she still is almost max sta

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I still say go wis. I'm cheap on my shaman and she still is almost max sta

Yup. WIS is harder to max generally speaking. Velious has a lot of STA gear.

[Tigerstyle Wutangfist]

Should you consider that at one point there should/may be a wis softcap of 200?

It is alot easier to get to 200 wis than 255.