Why are there hell levels still?

[oldschoolguy]

They only were invented originally a dirty move by a monopoly to force everyone to pay longer subscriptions without creating any content. Years later, we are on a free fan server (for which I'm thankful for, it is fun). So shouldn't we remove that pointless thing? Those hell levels are just annoying.

I literally don't know a single person who missed hell levels or wanted that.

Anyhow just my rant about getting through lvl 35.

[Trexller]

on TAKP, XP is buffed to like 4x (iirc) the p99 rates.

could be wrong on 4x, but its noticeably quite faster.

Hell levels are less of an issue there, but also if you're stressing over the 35 hell level on p99, then 59 will make your hair turn gray.

[enjchanter]

because this game is filled with artificial difficulty

[wuanahto]

artificial difficulty

i demand you stop using this incorrectly
Mario's Hidden Block scenario is artificial difficulty

Hell levels are just tedious, not difficult.

[Jimjam]

Because this project is an attempt to recreate Everquest as it was, not Everquest as it should have been.

[enjchanter]

i demand you stop using this incorrectly
Mario's Hidden Block scenario is artificial difficulty

Hell levels are just tedious, not difficult.



tedious = artificial difficulty

[Videri]

Because, as Juiblex put it, the devs of P99 are recreating a game, not designing a game.

[Kaitainz]

tedious = artificial difficulty

Have to agree with Enji here...

oh, and if this game was easy, you wouldn't come back and play it for as long as we do. The difficulty is what keeps us around..

[Arvan]

Because, as Juiblex put it, the devs of P99 are recreating a game, not designing a game.

Thats sort of true…. Except for unclassic yellow text… and clicky/recharge changes… and /list… and rooting mobs… etc etc

[Solist]

Thats sort of true…. Except for unclassic yellow text… and clicky/recharge changes… and /list… and rooting mobs… etc etc

All of that pales in comparison to resist rates and mob atk values.

You can not resist half the ae's. Dragons do twice the melee damage they did on live.

[Fammaden]

Because, as Juiblex put it, the devs of P99 are recreating a game, not designing a game.

What, Jimjam is Juiblex?

[mycoolrausch]

Classic EverQuest is the greatest MMORPG yet made.

That's an important qualifier BTW. Yet made. Not ever made. Ever made implies it's actually good. It's not. But I have several thousand hours in it.

[Viscere]

Worst rnf post yet made ^

[Frug]

They only were invented originally a dirty move by a monopoly to force everyone to pay longer subscriptions without creating any content.

If I recall correctly, they were there because the original devs didn't understand math. It wasn't till EQInside (I think; whatever the packet sniffer + protocol deobfuscator thing was that showed actual XP values) came out that they were able to spreadsheet the amount of XP needed per level, figure out the formula, and show why these levels were so laborious.

[Toxigen]

because shits classic

[starkind]

Time to make a new less grindy more user-friendly sim (not wow).

[SantagarBrax]

..oh, and if this game was easy, you wouldn't come back and play it for as long as we do. The difficulty is what keeps us around..

[wuanahto]

Have to agree with reality here...

oh, and if this game was fast, you wouldn't come back and play it for as long as we do. The tedious time consumingness is what keeps us around because we learned that life is longer than we thought and free time is what causes trouble or insanity..

fix'd

[wuanahto]

And dont fucking argue with me that raids are difficult
You all know whats coming and can prep small groups
You all can spend thousands of plat on consumables for youtubes
Or you bring 200+ people hitting auto attack and watching a stream of choice

[Ooloo]

tedious = artificial difficulty

You might say that something tedious is difficult, for the reason that it is tedious.

It's not really difficult to walk accross the entire country, it's just very tedious.

[Trexller]

Because this project is an attempt to recreate Everquest as it was, not Everquest as it should have been.


Because, as Juiblex put it, the devs of P99 are recreating a game, not designing a game.

Unequivocally false. "P99 is EverQuest as envisioned by P99 Devs"

Item Links (didnt exist until the last patch prior to luclin launch)
Rogue Shroud of Stealth (pop class ability, you couldn't drag corpses in seb with just sneak/hide)
Melee and Stats (ie the entire game) are just guess work.
Resist checks barely exist.

Thats sort of true…. Except for unclassic yellow text… and clicky/recharge changes… and /list… and rooting mobs… etc etc

All of that pales in comparison to resist rates and mob atk values.

You can not resist half the ae's. Dragons do twice the melee damage they did on live.

Project 1999 is Rogean/Nilbog's idea of what EQ should be, to say otherwise is a grand exercise in abject stupidity.

[unsunghero]

Have to agree with Enji here...

oh, and if this game was easy, you wouldn't come back and play it for as long as we do. The difficulty is what keeps us around..

The hell levels in the 50’s is actually what kinda burned me out. Only logged in an hour or so in the past 2 weeks

Hopefully with enough time away I’ll want to come back to the drudgery

[waltjig]

You might say that something tedious is difficult, for the reason that it is tedious.

It's not really difficult to walk accross the entire country, it's just very tedious.

A) both words are highly subjective and have no natural relation and are separate concepts

B) 100% you are finding a walk across the entire country both difficult and tedious. Don’t fucking kid yourself you loser

[Trexller]

A) both words are highly subjective and have no natural relation and are separate concepts

B) 100% you are finding a walk across the entire country both difficult and tedious. Don’t fucking kid yourself you loser

People walk across the country every year, definitely not difficult, and definitely a tedious and boring grind.

would only be difficult if you are obese with a heart condition.

[waltjig]

People walk across the country every year, definitely not difficult, and definitely a tedious and boring grind.

would only be difficult if you are obese with a heart condition.

Thank you for agreeing that’s it’s completely a matter of perspective.

[enjchanter]

would you say its hard to stand in camp and auto attack 4987 mobs till you ding 55

[enjchanter]

or tedious

[unsunghero]

would you say its hard to stand in camp and auto attack 4987 mobs till you ding 55

And the other downside about trudging through the 50’s is the range of things that still gives xp continues to shrink

I didn’t mind like 35 hell levels because the entire world was available to exp in. A lot easier to keep things feeling fresh

[Chortles Snortles]

tedious or moderately interesting toiling

[Trexller]

Thank you for agreeing that’s it’s completely a matter of perspective.

All of everquest is just tedium, there is no skill involved at all, unless you consider reading and learning a skill. If you fully understand your class and its abilities, then you just do that same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over until DING.

EQ is not a skill game, its an information game. 1 dead orc pawn could ding you 1-60 why not? but then people wouldn't pay subs for years. So they had to make it looonnnggg and tedious, requiring thousands to millions of mob kills. They don't call it an XP "grind" because its uproariously entertaining.

The most "skill" intensive class is enchanter, a 2 second lapse can kill you/group/raid - But even on enchanter, in all situations, its nothing more than knowing which spells to cast, and the proper time to cast, and then doing so.

Shooters are closer to a game of skill. If you can 90 degree flick the mouse to a 4 pixel headshot in 150ms, then you have a skill, its something that many others cannot physically perform.

After that, even in shooters its a knowledge game. Operator knowledge, map knowledge.

[unsunghero]

All of everquest is just tedium, there is no skill involved at all, unless you consider reading and learning a skill. If you fully understand your class and its abilities, then you just do that same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over until DING.

EQ is not a skill game, its an information game. 1 dead orc pawn could ding you 1-60 why not? but then people wouldn't pay subs for years. So they had to make it looonnnggg and tedious, requiring thousands to millions of mob kills. They don't call it an XP "grind" because its uproariously entertaining.

The most "skill" intensive class is enchanter, a 2 second lapse can kill you/group/raid - But even on enchanter, in all situations, its nothing more than knowing which spells to cast, and the proper time to cast, and then doing so.

Shooters are closer to a game of skill. If you can 90 degree flick the mouse to a 4 pixel headshot in 150ms, then you have a skill, its something that many others cannot physically perform.

After that, even in shooters its a knowledge game. Operator knowledge, map knowledge.

Most MMORPG games PvE is considered fairly low skill

Even for more complex mechanics you can just watch a YouTube video guide, make sure you have the best gear going in, and repeat until you win. The main thing lowering the skill ceiling is the fact the AI is static. That boss is going to do the same sequence of actions with the same programming every time, and a guide almost always already exists on what you should do

Pvp is more skill intensive since it’s always going to be dynamic. But any game with a GCD has a slightly lower skill ceiling because how fast you can react is always capped at whatever the GCD is. But the decisions on the fly (micro) + broader strategy like team comp (macro) can still separate the players. If you took the top players from like WoW’s arena, stripped their gear and put them in shit noob gear, they could still climb right back to the top of the arena ladder again eventually (it would require upgrades earned from certain pvp breakpoints along the way of course, they couldn’t do it in shit gear)

I consider FPS and RTS to be the highest skill ceilings, and maybe MOBA’s just a smidge behind those

[cd288]

They only were invented originally a dirty move by a monopoly to force everyone to pay longer subscriptions without creating any content. Years later, we are on a free fan server (for which I'm thankful for, it is fun). So shouldn't we remove that pointless thing? Those hell levels are just annoying.

I literally don't know a single person who missed hell levels or wanted that.

Anyhow just my rant about getting through lvl 35.

Actually if IIRC hell levels were a mistake in the coding and development. They later smoothed them out

[Trexller]

Most MMORPG games PvE is considered fairly low skill

Even for more complex mechanics you can just watch a YouTube video guide, make sure you have the best gear going in, and repeat until you win. The main thing lowering the skill ceiling is the fact the AI is static. That boss is going to do the same sequence of actions with the same programming every time, and a guide almost always already exists on what you should do

Pvp is more skill intensive since it’s always going to be dynamic. But any game with a GCD has a slightly lower skill ceiling because how fast you can react is always capped at whatever the GCD is. But the decisions on the fly (micro) + broader strategy like team comp (macro) can still separate the players. If you took the top players from like WoW’s arena, stripped their gear and put them in shit noob gear, they could still climb right back to the top of the arena ladder again eventually (it would require upgrades earned from certain pvp breakpoints along the way of course, they couldn’t do it in shit gear)

I consider FPS and RTS to be the highest skill ceilings, and maybe MOBA’s just a smidge behind those

yeah 100% agree that any game where you are competing against a live human player who will do different things each time in any given scenario, is definitely a high-skill endeavor.

PVE games are great for relaxation and chilling out, FPS for the high-adrenaline dynamic situations.

I play alot of siege, and often I'll employ just an absolutely retarded strategy, only because the enemy isn't going to expect you to be that dumb, you catch them off guard, trying to defend against an intelligent player.

[Scalem]

on TAKP, XP is buffed to like 4x (iirc) the p99 rates.

could be wrong on 4x, but its noticeably quite faster.

Hell levels are less of an issue there, but also if you're stressing over the 35 hell level on p99, then 59 will make your hair turn gray.

They have a global 20% exp boost as that was part of the original AK server. They still have hell levels but they “smoothed” out the levels so the hell levels aren’t nearly as bad as P99.

[Trexller]

They have a global 20% exp boost as that was part of the original AK server. They still have hell levels but they “smoothed” out the levels so the hell levels aren’t nearly as bad as P99.

just asking, you sure about the smoothed out hell levels? i thought that came wayyyy later on in xpacs, like DODH era.

my 6 toons on takp are 50-54, the toon in lvl 54 is gaining xp at a snails pace compared to 53

[Scalem]

just asking, you sure about the smoothed out hell levels? i thought that came wayyyy later on in xpacs, like DODH era.

my 6 toons on takp are 50-54, the toon in lvl 54 is gaining xp at a snails pace compared to 53

The hell levels still exist with 54 and 59 both being noticeable. But 30, 35, 40, 45, 51-53 and 55-58 are all noticeably easier compared to p99. Level 54/59 can be done in less then a day at the right camp.

[Trexller]

you know some secret super xp spots? my play time is like 2 hrs a day max lately

[Scalem]

you know some secret super xp spots? my play time is like 2 hrs a day max lately

Nah i did 50-55 on my ranger killing HK nobles in about 14-15 hrs. Had a 58 druid out of group for heals/DS. 59-60 took 7 hours in a Juggs group in seb. Now with PoP being out if you can sneak into a trial in PoJ then get a group in Valor/Storms you will be able to level even faster then that. Look up Blood Guard, they have some ex-p99 players and are pretty welcoming and helpful for any new members regardless of level.

[Trexller]

eh tryin to avoid guilds, they turn everquest into a job.

can't stand all the nerd voices in a discord server either.

I play video games to avoid people, and feel sorry for those who go online looking for friends

guess ill keep grinding away in hole :p

[wuanahto]

i know its hard coping with how you spent your youth but still
Diablo1 was hard for me until i found out that mouse1 attacks

[Ooloo]

i know its hard coping with how you spent your youth but still
Diablo1 was hard for me until i found out that mouse1 attacks

Nah those stupid acid spitting dog things that go "blehhh!!" in the caves are legit hard. Fuck those things.

[unsunghero]

Nah those stupid acid spitting dog things that go "blehhh!!" in the caves are legit hard. Fuck those things.

Lol I played so much Diablo II I barely remember D1

I do remember being surprised in D2 by those little fast moving pygmies with the spears. I got one-shot by a pack first time in that zone and was like WTF! I also remember a spot with some ghosts that would phase into view and blast you with electricity bolts. That killed me too a few times

[Ooloo]

Oh yeah those stupid pygmies in act 3 and the shamans who rez them and have that flamethrower attack are the worst thing in any diablo game imo

[Arvan]

I find this interesting because back when eq came out it was considered very difficult. And yes it was because lack of knowledge about the game. So maybe try playing games blind if you are finding them too ez. No internet etc.

[Jimjam]

Well, on classic with the extreme death penalties, less freely available depth of knowledge and overall more laid back attitude of most players it was far more difficult to achieve xp earned > xp lost.

Even just in terms of gained social skills and world knowledge it is far easier to find a rez, get it mobilised and tip a widely perceived ‘fair’ amount as thanks.

The server is far better at generating and redistributing loot too. In velious plenty of mid level rogues would use drachnid leg tips or walrus teeth as that was the best they could find/afford. You’d never see that here.

To say the game isn’t difficult is a real (reverse) dunning kruger - we find it easy as we have 20 years of knowledge and as such it is easy to us.

I was watching a kid play last night. He didn’t know to spend his 1st gold on the animation. He didn’t know to also buy tiny daggers. He wanted to spend money on a worn great staff and craft. Without the right knowledge it is difficult to make effective decisions.

[Ooloo]

Yeah I remember when EQ first came out I was coming into it directly from playing ultima online, and I didn't get what the point of the game was at first. I was like wtf no houses? No pvp? How do you get stuff? How do I raise my magery so I can cast the best spells? Why the hell is there a wizard class and a mage class? What is going on??

[Ooloo]

I remember groups of barbs teaming up to kill mammoths that were way red con to them, and sometimes succeeding and it was a big deal. Meanwhile it's like the most inefficient xp of all time but nobody knew or cared you just wanted to see if you could kill the biggest mob. Sigh those were the days.. now it's all beepboop minmaxed to death and there's no un-knowing all that knowledge.

[Chortles Snortles]

back in my day sonny we used to walk across the west Karanas to get to school with no sow
(lol)

[Jibartik]

One of the highpoints of my life was watching Conan after playing EQ and being like, holy shit they really did run on foot across the deserts of ro back then.

eWG-nHuuCRc

Always thought the running across zones was bullshit.

Turns out I was a melinial cuck in real life that complained about running.

[Convict]

Oh yeah those stupid pygmies in act 3 and the shamans who rez them and have that flamethrower attack are the worst thing in any diablo game imo

mmm yes the infamous "dolls" bane of many hardcore players. I think I lost a high level char or 2 to permadeath from them fuckin things.

[Tewaz]

I'm fine with every hell level except 59. That level is an abomination.

[Ooloo]

back in my day sonny we used to walk across the west Karanas to get to school with no sow
(lol)

Actually it would be pretty funny to roll an eq char that you only ever have set to walk and play all the way to level 60 like that, pickup grouping along the way and joining guilds and everything.

[Kohedron]

that's so cute.

Once you get on the cheating train like the rest of the server, those levels are a breeze.

[Ooloo]

They aren't cheating. They lead very lonely and sparse lives. Do not envy them, you should rather study them like a sideshow curiosity.

[Arvan]

Cheating is confirmed

[oldschoolguy]

Actually if IIRC hell levels were a mistake in the coding and development. They later smoothed them out

So all this struggle we have today is because some software engineer back in 1999 couldn't do math? Man that's terrible.

[Tunabros]

They aren't cheating. They lead very lonely and sparse lives. Do not envy them, you should rather study them like a sideshow curiosity.

shut up baler

[TheConsortium]

So all this struggle we have today is because some software engineer back in 1999 couldn't do math? Man that's terrible.

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/Lu9WkKHNNu9X2DGDyAJTnT-970-80.jpg

https://www.pcgamer.com/breaking-the-internet-the-story-of-everquest-the-mmo-that-changed-everything/

There are two common protocols for communicating on the internet: TCP/IP and UDP. Though complicated, the gist is that the former is slow but stable and will send packets of information with delivery confirmation notices. If a packet goes missing, TCP/IP will send a new one. UDP is much faster but couldn't care less if packets arrived at their destination. "Vince, who is a brilliant programmer, came in and wrote what we ended up calling Reliable UDP," McQuaid says.

It was a protocol that let EverQuest determine when to send reliable or unreliable data. "When you're running around and you're updating the server with your character's location," McQuaid explains, "that was usually sent unreliably because if there was a lost packet it was no big deal. Those packets were being sent out often because everyone is constantly running around. But if it was something like trading an item, we sent that reliably."

"That was a critical piece of technology that most people aren't even aware of," McQuaid says. "And Vince is an unsung hero because he was down there in the trenches working on this network code."

"Back then there was no one with launch experience. We were just making it up as we went along."

Few, if anyone, could reliably play EverQuest that day. Smedley, Sites, and the networking team were left scratching their heads until they finally discovered the source of the problem. "One of our network programmers had done his math wrong and it meant we were using eight times more bandwidth than we thought we were," Smedley laughs.

EverQuest was using a network managed by a local service provider called UUnet, also used by several major San Diego corporations. But demand for EverQuest was so much greater than Verant Interactive had planned for that it was exceeding the physical limits of the internet pipeline into San Diego. As a result, not only could thousands of players not explore Norrath, several massive corporations had their networking operations accidentally sabotaged. "Once you go over the limit, it basically boots everyone off the network," Sites explains.

Days ticked by as Smedley and crew desperately tried to assuage the growing frustrations of their players and negotiate for better internet access, but UUnet would have to physically lay more cable between San Diego and Los Angeles first. That would take weeks. Meanwhile, a rotating team of three parka-wearing employees took eight hour shifts rebooting crashed servers for days on end.

[dk0]

Few things on hell levels:

They were not built to artificially stretch playtime. Even after they were "smoothed out" (i.e. removed), the total exp required to hit max level remained the exact same, and therefore the time investment into leveling stayed the exact same. (You could argue nuances like spending longer in 58 and less in 59 means certain blue-cons will net more exp etc but overall the change was to remain equal.)

I'm not sure the hell levels were a mistake as much as they were just an outcome of the way the algorithm was designed. It's possible (even likely) that the outcome was unintended, but that may be forever debated. Exp calculations per level have a bunch of things that go into them, but one is an overall "level multiplier." The multiplier first jumps to a higher value at level 30, then again at 35, then 40, 45, and you get the idea. I don't remember the specifics of the level calculation here, but each jump in the multiplier created a large spike in required exp for that level, and hell levels were born.

Side note: the amount of exp you lose on death is calculated based on the total required exp of the PREVIOUS level. This is why you lose a shitload of exp when you die at 31, 36, 41, etc. and especially at 60.

Speaking of exp mistakes, though, my recollection is that the 5% bonus exp that halflings get was originally intended for humans. They were supposed to level more quickly to make up for having no innate racial features. Someone put a value in the wrong box and here we are.

Lastly, that PCGamer article linked above is an amazing read for any EQ fans (which I assume is most here). It was written for the 20th anniversary of EQ and dives into how this game came to be. Highly recommend!

[mycoolrausch]

Few things on hell levels:

They were not built to artificially stretch playtime.

Not specifically as such, but they wanted the 10 levels of kunark to last at least as long as the 50 levels of vanilla, so they had to arbitrarily make them all hell levels then add double hell levels on top of that.

There's pros and cons to the massive grinds and timesinks in EQ, but mostly cons. We still play it because mmorpg game designers haven't come up with a good answer to "how do you make lots of engaging content that rewards time and effort without tedious grinds" and hopefully not because we actually think the pinnacle of mmorpg game design was invented in 1999 by a rag tag team of stoned mud players and sony execs and will never be bested.

[unsunghero]

Seems like you have two options to keep people playing your game

1. Put them on a treadmill. You’re gonna need to use borrowed/temporary power systems or else you get mudflation like in wow or live EQ where chars went from having 4k health and doing 500 damage to having 100k health and doing 5,000,000 damage. So use a temporary power system that becomes useless next expansion to incentivize players to buy the next expansion

2. Make player driven content like pvp, in game politics. The problem here is that a decent amount of players especially gamers have shit personalities and so the type of content they will produce is not appealing to the player masses. And when players quit, you lose your content