Is Seal Team going to wake the sleeper?

[Dark_Magic]

Curious what's going to happen with the Sleeper on green. Is there some sort of arrangement between guilds? Is Seal Team going to wake him eventually?

[Castle2.0]

Determining factor: Are pizza deliveries up or down?

Such an event requires max attendance.

[Bardp1999]

Until there is real competition in ST the answer is will be "no". Once Seal Team decides the game is over, bye-bye Sleeper

[Tunabros]

they're gonna make it once a guild has the force to enter Sleeper's tomb

or someone makes smash/quicken/vill angry enough so they'll wake the sleeper to

spite the server

same thing happened on blue, hoku was being a cry baby over losing a vulak

so he said fuck you to the server and woke the sleeper and disbanded rampage

[Baler]

How no guild has woken the sleeper is beyond me.
It's the peak of velious raiding, being there when it happens solidifies you as having beat velious.

[Tunabros]

How no guild has woken the sleeper is beyond me.
It's the peak of velious raiding, being there when it happens solidifies you as having beat velious.

you are clearly lost and have no clue what the raiding scene is like atm on green

nice one, baler!

[Ooloo]

Do their members all have warder loot? I imagine not before then.

[Ooloo]

Or I guess the question is, does their lust for warder loot outweight their lust for denying other guilds warder loot?

[BlackBellamy]

Do their members all have warder loot? I imagine not before then.

The Sleeper is never going wake on Green. I mean it's right there in their guild name. They are going to guard the seals so no one breaks them.

[wuanahto]

Id just wake the sleeper asap.
I mean they will just make a new server anyways
few care about warder loot on blue now
just do it

[Toxigen]

sorry you dont got warder loot on green

[Convict]

Or I guess the question is, does their lust for warder loot outweight their lust for denying other guilds warder loot?

If Ive learned one thing about p99 raiding in my many years here, its that the lust for denying always far outweighs the lust for obtaining.

But who knows maybe Seal Team is actually the good guys for once idk. It would be nice if the sleeper just stays up and ST would rather have competition and race for warder kills than never get any more warder loot again.

[Tunabros]

pretty sure they made it clear they are going to wake the sleeper once a guild has

the force to compete in sleeper's tomb

[Ooloo]

pretty sure they made it clear they are going to wake the sleeper once a guild has

the force to compete in sleeper's tomb

Haha, they actually admitted preemptively that they are taking the dick route?? Hahaha.. fuckin nerds.

Seriously that is such an asshole thing to tell people ahead of time. Just totally demoralizes every other guild who might be able to bag a warder.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Haha, they actually admitted preemptively that they are taking the dick route?? Hahaha.. fuckin nerds.

Seriously that is such an asshole thing to tell people ahead of time. Just totally demoralizes every other guild who might be able to bag a warder.

It's the inevitable conclusion. SOMEONE will get bored and wake the Sleeper, it doesn't matter which guild. And honestly, when there are 5 guilds who have the force to kill all the Warders, you never know who will crack. Hell, some newb up and coming guild could do it on accident if they don't understand how the warder mechanic works.

The top guild wants to make sure they wake Sleeper first by keeping tabs on the other guilds. Once another guild almost has enough force to do Sleeper, that is the trigger. You can't wait until they actually have the force and are ready, because it is possible they will unexpectedly pounce on the Sleeper while you aren't ready.

Only way Sleeper will remain Sleeping is if there is some crazy player agreement that binds all current and future guilds, which probably won't happen, even with the UN. Or some non-classic mechanic developed by the Dev's to occasionally bring him back.

[Ooloo]

It just seems somewhat inconsistent with the reasons for the whole /list system. Warder drops basically are legacy items considering they stop dropping after the sleeper wakes. They are highly sought after and only drop for a limited time. The rationale for the list system was to prevent one guild from monopolizing highly sought after items.

I mean I get the aversion to "welfare pixels", but an actual player agreement would be a lot fairer. Specifically telling other guilds ahead of time that they basically have no chance so don't even try is the epitome of a dick move.

It's very in line with their MO of "we want competition, therefor we will completely prevent any competition". In the spirit of competition, let's wake the sleeper the moment competition presents itself. Just makes no sense.

[Tunabros]

Haha, they actually admitted preemptively that they are taking the dick route?? Hahaha.. fuckin nerds.

Seriously that is such an asshole thing to tell people ahead of time. Just totally demoralizes every other guild who might be able to bag a warder.

just how the game is

there's only like 3 items that are worth showing off in ST

tinker mask, sod, and shroud

I can live without them but damn would it be nice to have them :rolleyes:

who knows maybe theyll decide not to wake him up and be nice to the server

so take my thought for a grain of salt

[Ooloo]

I think a fair compromise would be that the warders continue dropping those items for X amount of time after the sleeper is woken. Then ST could still have the title of first and only guild to wake sleeper on green, but other guilds could then trickle in and compete for warders. And let's face it, ST will *still* probably win every warder, but at least there'd be a shred of a chance somebody else might get those items. As it is now, there's no reason for other guilds to even try.

[cd288]

It just seems somewhat inconsistent with the reasons for the whole /list system. Warder drops basically are legacy items considering they stop dropping after the sleeper wakes. They are highly sought after and only drop for a limited time. The rationale for the list system was to prevent one guild from monopolizing highly sought after items.

I mean I get the aversion to "welfare pixels", but an actual player agreement would be a lot fairer. Specifically telling other guilds ahead of time that they basically have no chance so don't even try is the epitome of a dick move.

It's very in line with their MO of "we want competition, therefor we will completely prevent any competition". In the spirit of competition, let's wake the sleeper the moment competition presents itself. Just makes no sense.

The point of the list system was to prevent one guild from monopolizing an item that other players could easily get essentially on their own. That doesn't apply to raid loot.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It just seems somewhat inconsistent with the reasons for the whole /list system. Warder drops basically are legacy items considering they stop dropping after the sleeper wakes. They are highly sought after and only drop for a limited time. The rationale for the list system was to prevent one guild from monopolizing highly sought after items.

I mean I get the aversion to "welfare pixels", but an actual player agreement would be a lot fairer. Specifically telling other guilds ahead of time that they basically have no chance so don't even try is the epitome of a dick move.

It's very in line with their MO of "we want competition, therefor we will completely prevent any competition". In the spirit of competition, let's wake the sleeper the moment competition presents itself. Just makes no sense.

Sleeper is unique because once you waken him, it can't be undone, even if it was done totally on accident. You can't really compare the other /list camps to it. It's not like killing 100 too many Holgaresh will stop them spawning forever before the timeline removes beads.

The only way to prevent waking the Sleeper is some kind of un-classic solution like having the Devs babysit ST to make sure no one wakes Sleeper. If you try it, you get banned or something.

It isn't really how you describe it, where Seal Team is just being a dick. They are honestly just being realistic based on how the Devs handle the server. Currently, the Dev's stance on Sleeper is he is a one and done. Until that changes, he has a unique set of circumstances. Again anyone can wake Sleeper, and it would suck even more if some idiots woke him on accident and nobody got a chance to even try fighting Sleeper.

[loramin]

It isn't really how you describe it, where Seal Team is just being a dick.

No, pretty sure that it's still a dick move.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, pretty sure that it's still a dick move.

I don't think so. I don't believe it is realistic to expect the other guilds to abide by the "Do not wake Sleeper" rule. Everybody wants a shot at Sleeper, it is one of the coolest events in EQ. Without Dev intervention, waking Sleeper is not a guild specific endeavor. If Seal Team doesn't do it, someone else will.

Just being realistic. Blue would still have Warder loot if the P99 community could resist the temptation to wake Sleeper.

[loramin]

I don't think so. I don't believe it is realistic to expect the other guilds to abide by the "Do not wake Sleeper" rule. Everybody wants a shot at Sleeper, it is one of the coolest events in EQ. Without Dev intervention, waking Sleeper is not a guild specific endeavor. If Seal Team doesn't do it, someone else will.

Just being realistic. Blue would still have Warder loot if the P99 community could resist the temptation to wake Sleeper.

"If I didn't murder the guy and take all his money, someone else would have" ... does not make for either a good legal or moral defense.

[branamil]

Making the sleeper wake-able was a really dumb decision. Imagine giving players the ability to permanently delete 4 pieces of raid content on a time-locked server.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"If I didn't murder the guy and take all his money, someone else would have" ... does not make for either a good legal or moral defense.

That is a huge false equivalency lol. Last time I checked, waking Sleeper isn't a crime, and the P99 UN isn't an actual Government with any real power.

This is a game, and waking Sleeper is an actual feature players can use. It isn't a bug or an exploit.

Also, murdering people and taking their money is basically the main mechanic of this game, so not even a great false equivalency.

[loramin]

That is a huge false equivalency lol. Last time I checked, waking Sleeper isn't a crime, and the P99 UN isn't an actual Government with any real power.

This is a game, and waking Sleeper is an actual feature players can use. It isn't a bug or an exploit.

Also, murdering people and taking their money is basically the main mechanic of this game, so not even a great false equivalency.

No one ever said it was a crime. What I wrote was:
that it's still a dick move.

And it still is ... regardless of your weak logic that it's ok to be a dick as long as some hypothetical future person will also be a dick. It was a dick move when Rampage did it, and it will be a dick move if and when any Green guild does it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No one ever said it was a crime. What I wrote was:


And it still is ... regardless of your weak logic that it's ok to be a dick as long as some hypothetical future person will also be a dick. It was a dick move when Rampage did it, and it will be a dick move if and when any Green guild does it.

The only odd logic here is why using a feature literally put into the game by it's creators is a "dick move". It isn't a bug, it isn't an exploit, and the Dev's are not telling players to "Not wake Sleeper or else". If you don't like Everquest, play a different game.

[loramin]

The only odd logic here is why using a feature literally put into the game by it's creators is a "dick move". It isn't a bug, it isn't an exploit, and the Dev's are not telling players to "Not wake Sleeper or else". If you don't like Everquest, play a different game.

So your logic amounts to "if it's possible to do in a game, in can never be a dick move"?

Because, again, that's some pretty weak logic you have going there. I can think of lots of things in EQ alone (ignoring every other game in existence) that the game lets me do ... but if I do them (eg. if I KS someone) I'll still be a dick for doing so.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So your logic amounts to "if it's possible to do in a game, in can never be a dick move"? Because, again, that's some pretty weak logic you have going there.

No, that is a pretty drastic misrepresentation of my argument, yet again:) In P99, there are things you can do in the game mechanic-wise that are valid (such as kill stealing a mob). However, we have rules against it, because we recognize that as "being a dick".

The Dev's have not made any rules against killing the Sleeper, and the Sleeper is working as it was originally intended. Last time I checked, "Classic Everquest" is the subtitle of this very forum lol.

So in it's current state, unless the Dev's change their stance on it, waking the Sleeper is a normal game mechanic, no different than other raid targets. It is also working as intended, in it's classic state.

[Ripqozko]

Sorry you don't got warder loot, consider yellow.

[loramin]

No, that is a pretty drastic misrepresentation of my argument, yet again:) In P99, there are things you can do in the game mechanic-wise that are valid (such as kill stealing a mob). However, we have rules against it, because we recognize that as "being a dick".

The Dev's have not made any rules against killing the Sleeper, and the Sleeper is working as it was originally intended. Last time I checked, "Classic Everquest" is the subtitle of this very forum lol.

So in it's current state, unless the Dev's change their stance on it, waking the Sleeper is a normal game mechanic, no different than other raid targets. It is also working as intended, in it's classic state.

So now the goalposts have moved (yet again) to "as long as there's no rule against it, it can't be a dick move"?

I still disagree ... but I'm sure you'll just come up with yet another set of goalposts for what constitutes "dickishness".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So now the goalposts have moved (yet again) to "as long as there's no rule against it, it can't be a dick move"?

I still disagree ... but I'm sure you'll just come up with yet another set of goalposts for what constitutes "dickishness".

I never moved any goal posts. Please re-read my posts. You keep straw manning me with your own words. Distilling someone's argument down to an unreasonable and silly sentence is not a valid counter-argument:)

Let's approach this from a different angle. Why do we have rules and the play nice policy? The reason is simple, we as a community have agreed that certain behaviors are bad, exploiting bugs, etc. That is what we constitute as "dickish behavior".

If it isn't in the rules or the play nice policy, your opinion on what is "dickish" is just that, your opinion. Now, we could certainly find new things that we consider "dickish behavior", and add it to the rules or the play nice policy. But that is a decision made by the Dev's who work hard on this project, and the community who plays it. It is not dictated by single individuals and their opinions.

As of writing this post, I see nothing in any documentation suggesting playing the game normally by waking the Sleeper is a bad thing. In "Classic Everquest" (which P99 is trying to emulate), Sleeper is awoken once, and that's it. If you honestly believe the entire P99 community can resist waking the Sleeper just because of your opinion, you are sorely mistaken. It is not a "dick move" to acknowledge reality, which can be backed up by the Sleeper being awoken on Blue.

[Fammaden]

Ogre confirmed best shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ogre confirmed best shaman.

[wuanahto]

You can youtube the sleepers awakening. tons of vids about it from progression servers, blue videos and so on.
None of you care about the sleeper itself, you just want some loot before the next server.

Waking the sleeper, and having all the loot (minus primal weapons) deleted by the raid leader would be fitting, and eliminate all the hate related to it. And best of all, no one can complain about it without sounding greedy.

[loramin]

Let's approach this from a different angle.

Sounds good.

Why do we have rules and the play nice policy? The reason is simple, we as a community have agreed that certain behaviors are bad, exploiting bugs, etc. That is what we constitute as "dickish behavior".

Here's the thing: you keep claiming I am misrepresenting you, but I don't think I am ... I think we just disagree. Stop me if I'm wrong: you believe that if the game/PnP allows you to do something, it can't be dickish. Correct?

I disagree with that position, and if just get on the same page about the definition of "dickishness", maybe you'll see why:

Dickishness: relating to, or being, in the state, quality, condition or degree of being a dick.

Dick in this sense is a "mean" or "contempable" person(s)


Simple question: can you follow the server rules, and still be "contempable" (sic) person?

[ClephNote]

Stop me if I'm wrong

Stop. You’re wrong. Again.

[Ripqozko]

Remember when loramin use to talk about raiding but never raided even with anon? pepperidge farms remembers

[Fammaden]

Remember when loramin use to talk about raiding but never raided even with anon? pepperidge farms remembers

If these dickish raid guilds weren't blocking him he totally would though.

[Ripqozko]

If these dickish raid guilds weren't blocking him he totally would though.

no no he wouldnt, there was free raids he could of attended with anon but instead farmed in wakening lands. he doesnt raid.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here's the thing: you keep claiming I am misrepresenting you, but I don't think I am ... I think we just disagree. Stop me if I'm wrong: you believe that if the game/PnP allows you to do something, it can't be dickish. Correct?

Simple question: can you follow the server rules, and still be "contempable" (sic) person?

No. I have never claimed it is impossible for someone to be "dickish". That idea is the product of your oversimplification of my argument. Of course it is possible to be "dickish" or a "contempable" person while following the Rules/PnP, because:

A. No ruleset is perfect.
B. You can be clever about skirting the rules.
C. Dev's do not have time to settle every possible squabble.

However, the Rules/PnP exist because in most normal situations, if you follow them you will be playing in a way that is not "dickish". This "non-dickish" playstyle has been agreed upon by the Dev's and the community in general. That collective opinion of what is considered "non-dickish" has more weight than an individual's opinion, such as your own. You must also remember that the spectrum of possible human personalities and interactions is practically limitless. It is very easy to misinterpret a human's actions while that person is next to you. It is even easier to misinterpret an action within an MMO, where players are anonymous and we only talk through text. You SHOULD be giving most people the benefit of the doubt when they do something "dickish", or "contemptable", because you lack a LOT of context in most cases. It could very well be that you are interpreting their actions incorrectly.

Now that I have explained my opinion on the Rules/PnP and "dickish" people in a more detailed manner, let me tell you the reasons why Seal Team announcing they will kill Sleeper is NOT "dickish".

1. It follows the Rules/PnP, which is generally correct. This is a good starting point, because it is a collective opinion that has more weight than your individual opinion. However, you are correct that exceptions to the rule exist, so I will give you additional reasons.

2. The Sleeper mechanic is working as intended, as it was created in classic Everquest, which this server is trying to emulate. You may not LIKE this mechanic, but that doesn't mean Seal Team is "dickish" for wanting to use this mechanic. There are a lot of people on P99 that do not like the way Enchanter Charm works right now, for example. But that doesn't make you a "dick" for using Charm on an Enchanter in the way in which people don't like. At that point, you simply have a different opinion on how you think Charm should work, it is not like the Enchanter is purposely flaunting the Charm mechanic to make you angry or something.

3. All available evidence points to players inevitably wanting to wake the Sleeper. This evidence comes from live Everquest, where the Sleeper has been awoken on the majority of servers. Also, Sleeper has been awoken on Blue specifically, which means we have real data within our own emulator. It is not unreasonable to look at a greater than 50% chance of the Sleeper being awoken by another guild to make the decision to try and be the guild to do it. Seal Team is the #1 guild on Green right now, so they are literally the most equipped guild to do this. The biggest guild on the server announcing they will kill the Sleeper is one of the least surprising messages you could send on any Everquest server to be honest.

4. If the Dev's had a strong opinion on the Sleeper remaining asleep, they would do something about it. They would create new rules to prevent people from doing it, create a non-classic mechanic, etc. The Dev's have made it abundantly clear with their actions thus far that they are perfectly fine with a guild waking up the Sleeper. The Dev's opinions on this does matter quite a bit, because they are curating our experience the way they want. If they didn't want player's to experience a world without Warder Loot, they would do something.

[Albanwr]

Green will end, I don't see why you would not wake the sleeper asap. Your characters will be gone from this server before you know it. You will either start again on the new Green, or just keep playing your old stuff on Blue under your new guilds.

I guess the best way would to wait until you have competition, but who really cares? Just wake it and know that it doesn't really matter.

[Ooloo]

I guess the best way would to wait until you have competition, but who really cares? Just wake it and know that it doesn't really matter.

Oh they wouldn't be in the position they're in if they didn't think it mattered.

[derpcake2]

No. I have never claimed it is impossible for someone to be "dickish". That idea is the product of your oversimplification of my argument. Of course it is possible to be "dickish" or a "contempable" person while following the Rules/PnP, because:

A. No ruleset is perfect.
B. You can be clever about skirting the rules.
C. Dev's do not have time to settle every possible squabble.

However, the Rules/PnP exist because in most normal situations, if you follow them you will be playing in a way that is not "dickish". This "non-dickish" playstyle has been agreed upon by the Dev's and the community in general. That collective opinion of what is considered "non-dickish" has more weight than an individual's opinion, such as your own. You must also remember that the spectrum of possible human personalities and interactions is practically limitless. It is very easy to misinterpret a human's actions while that person is next to you. It is even easier to misinterpret an action within an MMO, where players are anonymous and we only talk through text. You SHOULD be giving most people the benefit of the doubt when they do something "dickish", or "contemptable", because you lack a LOT of context in most cases. It could very well be that you are interpreting their actions incorrectly.

Now that I have explained my opinion on the Rules/PnP and "dickish" people in a more detailed manner, let me tell you the reasons why Seal Team announcing they will kill Sleeper is NOT "dickish".

1. It follows the Rules/PnP, which is generally correct. This is a good starting point, because it is a collective opinion that has more weight than your individual opinion. However, you are correct that exceptions to the rule exist, so I will give you additional reasons.

2. The Sleeper mechanic is working as intended, as it was created in classic Everquest, which this server is trying to emulate. You may not LIKE this mechanic, but that doesn't mean Seal Team is "dickish" for wanting to use this mechanic. There are a lot of people on P99 that do not like the way Enchanter Charm works right now, for example. But that doesn't make you a "dick" for using Charm on an Enchanter in the way in which people don't like. At that point, you simply have a different opinion on how you think Charm should work, it is not like the Enchanter is purposely flaunting the Charm mechanic to make you angry or something.

3. All available evidence points to players inevitably wanting to wake the Sleeper. This evidence comes from live Everquest, where the Sleeper has been awoken on the majority of servers. Also, Sleeper has been awoken on Blue specifically, which means we have real data within our own emulator. It is not unreasonable to look at a greater than 50% chance of the Sleeper being awoken by another guild to make the decision to try and be the guild to do it. Seal Team is the #1 guild on Green right now, so they are literally the most equipped guild to do this. The biggest guild on the server announcing they will kill the Sleeper is one of the least surprising messages you could send on any Everquest server to be honest.

4. If the Dev's had a strong opinion on the Sleeper remaining asleep, they would do something about it. They would create new rules to prevent people from doing it, create a non-classic mechanic, etc. The Dev's have made it abundantly clear with their actions thus far that they are perfectly fine with a guild waking up the Sleeper. The Dev's opinions on this does matter quite a bit, because they are curating our experience the way they want. If they didn't want player's to experience a world without Warder Loot, they would do something.

Stop getting trolled.

[loramin]

1. It follows the Rules/PnP, which is generally correct. This is a good starting point, because it is a collective opinion that has more weight than your individual opinion. However, you are correct that exceptions to the rule exist, so I will give you additional reasons.

Great, let's see your "additional" reasons ...

2. The Sleeper mechanic is working as intended, as it was created in classic Everquest, which this server is trying to emulate.

This isn't a new point: it's literally you just repeating the same flawed argument ("if the game let's me do it, I can't be a dick")

3. All available evidence points to players inevitably wanting to wake the Sleeper.

What are you smoking? Were you here when Rampage woke the Sleeper? Everyone on the server hated them for it. (Which is the logical and natural consequence of being a dick and denying everyone else on the server experiences/items.)

4. If the Dev's had a strong opinion on the Sleeper remaining asleep, they would do something about it.

Again, just a repeat your flawed logic ("if the devs allow it, it can't be dickish behavior"). But (once again), you can be following the rules and playing the game without cheating ... and still be a dick!

You added nothing whatsoever to your argument (except acknowledging that you have no idea how unpopular the first Sleeper wakening was) with that massive wall of text.

[loramin]

Green will end, I don't see why you would not wake the sleeper asap. Your characters will be gone from this server before you know it. You will either start again on the new Green, or just keep playing your old stuff on Blue under your new guilds.

A) We still haven't had official confirmation of a merger from the staff (they were going to, but then said essentially "we'll wait and see")

B) There is a possibility that if the Sleeper is asleep on Green when it merges, the staff will restore it to "sleeping status" on Blue.

Obviously though I agree that if the staff says A) "were merging", and B) "the sleeper ain't coming" and C) we are close enough to the server's end that no one else is going to get keyed and see ST ...

... then, at that point, it wouldn't be a dick move to kill the sleeper.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This isn't a new point: it's literally you just repeating the same flawed argument ("if the game let's me do it, I can't be a dick")


If that is your takeaway from what I said, there is the problem. It is not my opinion that is flawed, it is your reading comprehension ability that is flawed. I never said "If the game let's me do it, I can't be a dick".

I wrote the wall of text to hopefully explain missing context. Instead, you just keep tunnel visioning and misquoting.

[loramin]

Remember when loramin use to talk about raiding but never raided even with anon? pepperidge farms remembers

If you can't win the argument, attack the messenger right?

But you've got me :( I'm a liar and a fraud, and I almost never raided with Anonymous. I certainly wasn't still #25 in guild DKP even when I left Blue, and certainly not after getting (among other things) two full suits of HoT armor, a sky ring, and a Vindi BP. Nope, Loramin (or my alts) never raided on Blue ...

https://i.imgur.com/YtFPc5s.png

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude, it's not hard: say what you want to say. Literally all you've said is the same thing over and over in new words, and all I ever do is quote you.

But if you just keep saying the same thing, I'll keep quoting you and pointing out you're saying the same thing.

I literally spelled it out clearly:) You are trying as hard as possible to project your opinion about what I said on to my words. I cannot continue having a conversation with you when you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with your imagination of what I said.

[loramin]

EDIT: Deleted post to rewrite it a bit and accidentally wound up below Death (evidently he was waiting with baited breath to reply instantly).

If that is your takeaway from what I said, there is the problem. It is not my opinion that is flawed, it is your reading comprehension ability that is flawed. I never said "If the game let's me do it, I can't be a dick".

I wrote the wall of text to hopefully explain missing context. Instead, you just keep tunnel visioning and misquoting.

Dude, it's not hard: say what you want to say.

Literally all you've said is the same thing, over and over in new words, and all I ever do is quote you. But I can't quote every last word, because you say a damn lot of them, especially that last giant wall of text.

If you just keep saying the same thing, of course I'll just keep quoting you and pointing out you're saying the same thing. So if you have a point other than "it's not dickishness if the rules/PNP allow it" ... then for god's sake: spit it out!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude, it's not hard: say what you want to say.

Literally all you've said is the same thing, over and over in new words, and all I ever do is quote you. But I can't quote every last word, because you say a damn lot of them, especially that last giant wall of text.

If you just keep saying the same thing, of course I'll just keep quoting you and pointing out you're saying the same thing. So if you have a point other than "it's not dickishness if the rules/PNP allow it" ... then for god's sake: spit it out!

I literally spelled it out clearly. You are trying as hard as possible to project your opinion about what I said on to my words. I cannot continue having a conversation with you when you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with your imagination of what I said.

It is pretty bad when I expand on what I am talking about, and you just ignore all of it to tunnel vision on what you think I said.

[loramin]

I literally spelled it out clearly:) You are trying as hard as possible to project your opinion about what I said on to my words. I cannot continue having a conversation with you when you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with your imagination of what I said.

Don't write a wall of text. Don't' bitch and moan about how I'm taking you out of context by not quoting said wall of text. Just write one or two sentences that express an idea which is not "it's not a dick move because it's allowed". How is that so difficult?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't write a wall of text. Write one or two sentences that express something other than "it's not a dick move because it's allowed". How is that so difficult?

You ignored everything I said and just tunnel visioned on what you think I said. If you can't be bothered to read, then don't pretend to understand what I am trying to say.

[loramin]

... or you could keep bitching and moaning and not expressing any new thoughts. Your call.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

... or you could keep bitching and moaning and not expressing any new thoughts. Your call.

I explained my thoughts in the previous post. Since you cannot be bothered to read it, you clearly have no intention of having a real conversation. You are either trolling at this point, or are just lazy. Either way, you aren't doing your argument any favors, and anyone who can read will see it lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't write a wall of text. Don't' bitch and moan about how I'm taking you out of context by not quoting said wall of text. Just write one or two sentences that express an idea which is not "it's not a dick move because it's allowed". How is that so difficult?

One final note. The reason why I had to write a wall of text is because you keep misreading the single sentences I write lol. Please pick one: Either read my single sentences correctly, or read the wall of text to understand the context behind the single sentence.

If you get:

"if the game let's me do it, I can't be a dick"

from:

"The Sleeper mechanic is working as intended, as it was created in classic Everquest, which this server is trying to emulate."

Then I cannot help you understand my thoughts with a single sentence.

[Ripqozko]

If you can't win the argument, attack the messenger right?

But you've got me :( I'm a liar and a fraud, and I almost never raided with Anonymous. I certainly wasn't still #25 in guild DKP even when I left Blue, and certainly not after getting (among other things) two full suits of HoT armor, a sky ring, and a Vindi BP. Nope, Loramin (or my alts) never raided on Blue ...

https://i.imgur.com/YtFPc5s.png

Yea you didn't raid much, sorry for your loss. Hope that helps. Imagine talking about sleeper but never being apart of the raids.

[greenacct]

No one cares about Seal Team or anything they do. They have done nothing that hasn't already been done a hundred times and everything they "accomplish" will be forgotten by all.

The only thing they managed to do is waste their life getting fake pixels in an obsolete game.

[Tunabros]

Yea you didn't raid much, sorry for your loss. Hope that helps. Imagine talking about sleeper but never being apart of the raids.

true

[Tunabros]

loramin you literally worship the wiki or "correct" other people on "classic interference"

no one:
loramin: um actually frogloks were added in the 84th expansion legacy of luclin uh durrrr

loramin and his vindi pixels

[Oft]

Loving this. People are at each other's throats in a thread discussing whether the top guilds are at each other's throats. As if it's even a question.

It's crabs all the way down.

[Albanwr]

it wouldn't be a dick move to kill the sleeper.

it is not a dick move to wake the sleeper. It's a dick move to expect some guild to keep it sleeping for your sake.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

it is not a dick move to wake the sleeper. It's a dick move to expect some guild to keep it sleeping for your sake.

[Tunabros]

it is not a dick move to wake the sleeper. It's a dick move to expect some guild to keep it sleeping for your sake.

[Ripqozko]

it is not a dick move to wake the sleeper. It's a dick move to expect some guild to keep it sleeping for your sake.

[loramin]

Can't exactly say that I'm surprised a bunch of dicks like you have a poor grasp of the concept of "dickishness" (dicks aren't exactly known for their self-awareness) ... but denying others at no gain for yourself is still a dick move regardless.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Can't exactly say that I'm surprised a bunch of dicks like you have a poor grasp of the concept of "dickishness" (dicks aren't exactly known for their self-awareness) ... but denying others at no gain for yourself is still a dick move regardless.

I am not trying to be a dick. You need to learn how to take a step back and contemplate what you are reading. Creating an extreme simplification of someone's argument is not a valid way to have a conversation. When someone repeats themselves over and over, the problem may be your interpretation of what they are saying, rather than the person just likes repeating themselves.

[Ripqozko]

Can't exactly say that I'm surprised a bunch of dicks like you have a poor grasp of the concept of "dickishness" (dicks aren't exactly known for their self-awareness) ... but denying others at no gain for yourself is still a dick move regardless.

I’d probably stick to spamming every thread about finding it in the wiki , you are better at that.
Hope that helps

[normal]

What is there to gain from blocking other guilds from having a shot at warder loot? If there is nothing to gain, then that's definitely a dick move by Seal Team.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me make one final attempt.

If you believe it is a dick move to wake the Sleeper, then you must also believe it is a dick move for the Dev's to remove legacy items like Manastone from the drop table. In both cases, items are being removed at no gain to the party removing said items.

Think of Sleeper like a player-controlled legacy item removal, rather than a dev-controlled legacy item removal. There is literally no difference besides which party flips the switch.

Also, by keeping the Sleeper sleeping, you are denying people the essence lens quest for no gain. So even under your own logic, it doesn't make sense to call waking the Sleeper a "dick move". My Shaman doesn't want anything from the Warders. The Essence Lens quest is much more useful to my Shaman than anything Warders drop. So you are denying me the Essence Lens quest so you can get your Warder loot.

Now, there are obviously "dickish" ways to wake the Sleeper, like waking him just for fun, without even trying to fight him. I would agree that would be kind of a dick move, because there are plenty of people on this server who want to be part of the Sleeper fight.

[normal]

It's about intention, my friend.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's about intention, my friend.

Yup. The Dev's intention to remove legacy items is to keep P99 as classic as possible.

The Dev's intention to allow the Sleeper to be awoken is to remove legacy items to keep P99 as classic as possible.

Same intent. The only difference is the Dev's actually give player's control over when to remove the items, rather than the standard fixed date within the patch timeline. I honestly think that is a pretty cool idea, it gives the player's on the server some say as to when we should remove specific legacy items from the drop table.

Now, you may be asking "What right does Seal Team have to decide this for the entire server"? That is simple, they are the best raiding guild on the server. They have spent more time successfully raiding than anyone else, so they certainly do have more of a say in this matter than other players. If you put in the time, you get the benefits.

[Ooloo]

Yeah I fundamentally agree with that. Still, why tell people ahead of time your intention is to wake the sleeper as soon as any other guild threatens you? It's just such a demoralizing blow to any other guild. Why not just not tell anyone and then do it when you detect competition is imminent? Seems needlessly hostile. I agree they have every right to wake the sleeper and cut off those legacy warder drops, but why *tell* people that's what they intend to do? This is just a question of the ethics and integrity of the top guild on the server, which itself is a very classic topic to discuss.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah I fundamentally agree with that. Still, why tell people ahead of time your intention is to wake the sleeper as soon as any other guild threatens you? It's just such a demoralizing blow to any other guild. Why not just not tell anyone and then do it when you detect competition is imminent? Seems needlessly hostile. I agree they have every right to wake the sleeper and cut off those legacy warder drops, but why *tell* people that's what they intend to do? This is just a question of the ethics and integrity of the top guild on the server, which itself is a very classic topic to discuss.

In my opinion, I would rather know they are planning on killing Sleeper, and a rough timeline. Then if you really want Warder loot, you know your time is limited. Also, it gives people the opportunity to plan watching the event, or being on the server when it happens.

It is honestly the best strategy for Sleeper. Once a second guild can contest Sleeper, you force the hand of the top guild, because they want to be the ones to wake Sleeper and do the fight. Otherwise, the second guild could catch you off-guard and wake Sleeper instead.

A stealth kill is the worse of the two options in my opinion, because less people get to be a part of the Sleeper event. That would be more "dickish" than the alternative.

[Jibartik]

Still, why tell people ahead of time your intention is to wake the sleeper as soon as any other guild threatens you?

https://i.imgur.com/u7tM2Of.png

[Albanwr]

Can't exactly say that I'm surprised a bunch of dicks like you have a poor grasp of the concept of "dickishness" (dicks aren't exactly known for their self-awareness) ... but denying others at no gain for yourself is still a dick move regardless.

I am not a dick, I am quite a nice person really. If people want to get into ST before the sleeper is awakened, they need to get to it. Blaming Seal Team (or whoever may wake the sleeper) for "denying others" when the "others" are not trying hard enough is dumb at best.

[Albanwr]

Yeah I fundamentally agree with that. Still, why tell people ahead of time your intention is to wake the sleeper as soon as any other guild threatens you?

Well that shouldn't even need to be said, it should be the obvious move and quite expected.

[ClephNote]

What if the entire point of P99 is seeing if a community is able to keep the sleeper sleeping? That’s why they tried Blue, Red, now Green. Because there isn’t a single other server that has a sleeping sleeper, right?

In this scenario, Rogbog are basically Willy Wonka and we all have golden tickets.

[Toxigen]

how many more pages of silkymist vs loramin are we going to get?

is water wet? find out next page!

[Scalem]

Loramin should just stick to editing the wiki and crying about nerfing charming because of how he remembers classic.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

how many more pages of silkymist vs loramin are we going to get?

is water wet? find out next page!

You know you love it.

[Tunabros]

loramin really needs to shut up

[CancerMage]

knowing seal team they most likely are, they are assholes.

[Toxigen]

they should just do it now and put green raiding out of its misery

have fun rolling into blue

[wuanahto]

Also from an economic perspective, the scepters of destruction will go up or stay the same in price if the servers merge. Allowing warder loot on green will not be good

[Fammaden]

What if the entire point of P99 is seeing if a community is able to keep the sleeper sleeping? That’s why they tried Blue, Red, now Green. Because there isn’t a single other server that has a sleeping sleeper, right?

In this scenario, Rogbog are basically Willy Wonka and we all have golden tickets.

Is it awake on TAKP?

[Videri]

Is it awake on TAKP?

It doesn't awaken on TAKP. You can kill all four warders and it stays sleeping.

[Tethler]

It's not like warder loot is miles better than ToV loot or anything anyway. The only real bummer to waking the sleeper is removing 3 loot pinatas from the weekly rotation.

Some say it's for bragging rights or whatever, but what's there to brag about when it was done 20 years ago? Nobody is gonna be impressed by waking yet another sleeper in 2021 or 2022.

[Ripqozko]

It's not like warder loot is miles better than ToV loot or anything anyway. The only real bummer to waking the sleeper is removing 3 loot pinatas from the weekly rotation.

Some say it's for bragging rights or whatever, but what's there to brag about when it was done 20 years ago? Nobody is gonna be impressed by waking yet another sleeper in 2021 or 2022.

Sorry you don't got

[Worry]

if you wake sleeper you:
1) suck at life
and
2) are actively making the decision to fuck the majority of your niche community

lol at the people in here trying to say otherwise.

[fortior]

Loramin is the biggest loser in P99. He manages to simultaneously whine that things should stay classic according to his memories while also going on and on about the wiki, the single most un-classic thing in P99. Gone are the days of asking around or posting comments on allakazam to figure out things together--just read the wiki now, where a big anonymous text document tells you exactly what's right.

It would be good for the health of the game if Loramin was banned.

[Tethler]

Sorry you don't got

I'm not sorry

[Ripqozko]

I'm not sorry

Consider not sucking in video games, hope that helps .

[loramin]

Loramin is the biggest loser in P99. He manages to simultaneously whine that things should stay classic according to his memories while also going on and on about the wiki, the single most un-classic thing in P99.

I love how it's "cool" to hate on the wiki ... even though every last one of you happily uses it :rolleyes:

But look, I'm used to upsetting people by being right on "unpopular" issues here. When I first arrived almost a decade ago, people got mad at me for linking the Per-Level/Treasure Hunting Guides so often ... but now we see maybe 1/5th of the "where should I hunt?" posts that we used to.

When I said "Green is coming", it's easy to forget that virtually everyone on this forum disagreed with me! But Green still came. When I said automated GMing was the future, almost everyone denied /list would ever come (but it did).

And what about when I said the thing that pissed the most people off (ie. everyone in TMO, back when 90+% of all raiders were in that one guild) ... that we needed GM involvement in the raid scene to make P99 classic? We got ... you guessed it, GM involvement (Class C/R and eventually the UN).

Time after time I keep saying unpopular things, I get yelled at ... and then I get proven right. And the same thing is going to happen with Enchanters too, for the exact same reason.

It's easy to be right here ... all you have to do is ignore the whining from posters like y'all, and just look at the upper-left corner of the screen.

[Tethler]

Consider not sucking in video games, hope that helps .

It helps a lot, thx

[Ripqozko]

I love how it's "cool" to hate on the wiki ... even though every last one of you happily uses it :rolleyes:

But look, I'm used to upsetting people by being right on "unpopular" issues here. When I first arrived almost a decade ago, people got mad at me for linking the Per-Level/Treasure Hunting Guides so often ... but now we see maybe 1/5th of the "where should I hunt?" posts that we used to.

When I said "Green is coming", it's easy to forget that virtually everyone on this forum disagreed with me! But Green still came. When I said automated GMing was the future, almost everyone denied /list would ever come (but it did).

And what about when I said the thing that pissed the most people off (ie. everyone in TMO, back when 90+% of all raiders were in that one guild) ... that we needed GM involvement in the raid scene to make P99 classic? We got ... you guessed it, GM involvement (Class C/R and eventually the UN).

Time after time I keep saying unpopular things, I get yelled at ... and then I get proven right. And the same thing is going to happen with Enchanters too, for the exact same reason.

It's easy to be right here ... all you have to do is ignore the whining from posters like y'all, and just look at the upper-left corner of the screen.

You have done nothing of significance in the game and clutch to the wiki you edit as being someone, hope that helps. Consider raiding so you actually know what it's like.

PS vindi, hot and sky aren't raids. Hope that helps.

[Tethler]

You have done nothing of significance in the game and clutch to the wiki you edit as being someone, hope that helps. Consider raiding so you actually know what it's like.

PS vindi, hot and sky aren't raids. Hope that helps.

We got a double "hope that helps" in this post. You're always so helpful. This is the best community!

[Disease]

I love how it's "cool" to hate on the wiki ... even though every last one of you happily uses it :rolleyes:

But look, I'm used to upsetting people by being right on "unpopular" issues here. When I first arrived almost a decade ago, people got mad at me for linking the Per-Level/Treasure Hunting Guides so often ... but now we see maybe 1/5th of the "where should I hunt?" posts that we used to.

When I said "Green is coming", it's easy to forget that virtually everyone on this forum disagreed with me! But Green still came. When I said automated GMing was the future, almost everyone denied /list would ever come (but it did).

And what about when I said the thing that pissed the most people off (ie. everyone in TMO, back when 90+% of all raiders were in that one guild) ... that we needed GM involvement in the raid scene to make P99 classic? We got ... you guessed it, GM involvement (Class C/R and eventually the UN).

Time after time I keep saying unpopular things, I get yelled at ... and then I get proven right. And the same thing is going to happen with Enchanters too, for the exact same reason.

It's easy to be right here ... all you have to do is ignore the whining from posters like y'all, and just look at the upper-left corner of the screen.

Delusions of grandeur. As per all the posts, everyone hates you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You guys shouldn't be hating on Loramin so much. Much of the time he is helping new players out, which is great. Loramin you just need to read more carefully and not get so angry. Our entire conversation on this thread was you arguing against your illusion of what I said, which isn't helping. I know you have the capability to read what I said correctly, you just tunnel visioned a bit too hard.

[loramin]

You have done nothing of significance in the game and clutch to the wiki you edit as being someone, hope that helps. Consider raiding so you actually know what it's like.

PS vindi, hot and sky aren't raids. Hope that helps.

What about every raid target in VP and Kael, plus an increasing assortment of dragons? Oh wait, let me guess: if I haven't personally killed Vulak, I'm not a "real raider"? :rolleyes:

Delusions of grandeur. As per all the posts, everyone hates you.

Yeah, because four posts from some of the forum's most toxic posters are clearly representative of more than a thousand other forum readers :rolleyes:

You guys shouldn't be hating on Loramin so much. Much of the time he is helping new players out, which is great. Loramin you just need to read more carefully and not get so angry. Our entire conversation on this thread was you arguing against your illusion of what I said, which isn't helping. I know you have the capability to read what I said correctly, you just tunnel visioned a bit too hard.

I appreciate the defense, and look I don't mean to be a dick myself, but ... if you had a point other than "dickishness can only = rules breaking", you could very easily prove me wrong. Show it simply by quoting something you said that argued a different point :) I strongly invite you to do so!

However, I read and understood all of your posts, despite the "wall of text" factor ... and truly all I saw was a repetition of the same core idea, that dickishness can only mean "rule-breaking" ... over and over with increasingly more text.

I mean this with absolute sincerity: PLEASE, make a point which isn't "anything the staff/game allows is by definition not dickish" and I would love to discuss that point with you like a normal human being.

[Ripqozko]

What about every raid target in VP and Kael, plus an increasing assortment of dragons? Oh wait, let me guess: if I haven't personally killed Vulak, I'm not a "real raider"? :rolleyes:



Yeah, because four posts from some of the forum's most toxic posters are clearly representative :rolleyes:



You said a lot, signifying nothing. Look, if you actually had a point, you could have stated it in a sentence or two, instead of a wall of text, and I happily would have conversed with you on your points. But instead you just repeated the same points over and over with increasingly more text, while adding nothing new to the conversation.

PLEASE, and I mean this with absolute sincerity: make a point which isn't "anything the staff/game allows is by definition not dickish" and I would love to discuss that point with you like a normal human being :)

Correct you aren't a real raider, hope that helps.

[Tunabros]

loramin shut up

"kael raiding" doesn't count

[loramin]

loramin shut up

"kael raiding" doesn't count

Yeah, KT isn't a major target or anything :rolleyes:

[Lightbringer55]

Considering the reaction when they lost a noble race and ended up with an indefinite ban from their subsequent actions, I don't think they're above waking the sleeper if their buttons get pushed.

[Ravager]

Who gives a shit?

[Rader]

Loramin is right. It is a dick move to wake the Sleeper. You can all play grab @$$ all you want but that does not deny the truth.

[Fammaden]

Who gives a shit?

[Tethler]

I don't get all the Loramin hate around here. Seems like a good dude and always trying to be helpful to the community.

[Sillyturtle]

I don't get all the Loramin hate around here. Seems like a good dude and always trying to be helpful to the community.

Loramin is one of the best people in the entire P99 Community.

He's done so much work and help for the betterment of all in regards to Wiki and other things.

These other people are just jerks, plain and simple.


Waking the sleeper IS a dick move, end of story. Anyone who argues against it is just stupid and not worth the time.

<3 you Loramin mate.

[TomisFeline]

to summarize:

to wake is to intentionally deny others of content
for the sake of denying them of content
in a niche community

don't know how this isn't cut and dry a 'dick move'. if you are having trouble seeing how it is, consider looking inwardly and asking yourself: 'If I met me, would I like me?'

furthermore, actively bashing loramin for contributing to the legacy of p99, (via the wiki), while your own contribution to this monumental project is being a vessel of pixel lust, is irony incarnate.

It's no surprise those advocating for waking the sleeper as 'not being a dick move' also bash someone for contributing to a group project in his own way. It reflects a self serving mindset and/or a mindset that seeks to exonerate self serving actions.

it's not too late to learn to cooperate with others in life. a rising tide raises all boats. if you contributed 1/10 what Loramin has via the wiki you would also have randos coming to your defenses.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

to summarize:

to wake is to intentionally deny others of content
for the sake of denying them of content
in a niche community

don't know how this isn't cut and dry a 'dick move'. if you are having trouble seeing how it is, consider looking inwardly and asking yourself: 'If I met me, would I like me?'

furthermore, actively bashing loramin for contributing to the legacy of p99, (via the wiki), while your own contribution to this monumental project is being a vessel of pixel lust, is irony incarnate.

It's no surprise those advocating for waking the sleeper as 'not being a dick move' also bash someone for contributing to a group project in his own way. It reflects a self serving mindset and/or a mindset that seeks to exonerate self serving actions.

it's not too late to learn to cooperate with others in life. a rising tide raises all boats. if you contributed 1/10 what Loramin has via the wiki you would also have randos coming to your defenses.

Again, if you consider waking Sleeper a dick move, then you are calling the Dev's dicks for removing all other legacy items. There is no difference between the two besides which party removes the item: Players or Devs. Sleeper is just a player controlled legacy item removal, rather than the standard fixed timeline removal.

Also, by your logic, keeping Sleeper sleeping is a dick move for priest classes, because essence lens is a better item than the priest loot from Warders. Whether you wake Sleeper or not, you are denying content to players.

[loramin]

Again, if you consider waking Sleeper a dick move, then you are calling the Dev's dicks for removing all other legacy items. There is no difference between the two besides which party removes the item: Players or Devs.

You're not that stupid, and you 100% understand there is a (very large and meaningful) difference between those two things. When you argue in bad faith with weak and transparently false claims, all you do is make my argument stronger.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're not that stupid, and you 100% understand there is a (very large and meaningful) difference between those two things. When you argue in bad faith with weak and transparently false claims, all you do is make my argument stronger.

Just saying "there is a difference" is not showing what the difference is. What is it?:)

Both situations are removing legacy items. There is literally no difference between the two besides who does it. The logic is honestly very simple. And again, keeping sleeper sleeping is denying Essence Lens, so either way is loot denial.

You can't just keep saying my arguments are "in bad faith", "weak and transparent", etc. without providing a reason for that. It doesn't make your argument stronger to just insult my argument with no reasoning behind it. So far you haven't been able to counter what I have been saying.

[loramin]

You're honestly going to tell me you can't see a difference between a computer program doing something that it's been programmed to, and humans doing something because of their own agency?

Really?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're honestly going to tell me you can't see a difference between a computer program doing something that it's been programmed to, and humans doing something because of their own agency?

Really?

I am a professional programmer. Computer programs are programmed by humans. A computer program action is simply automated human will. I am asking you to be consistent. If you think legacy item removal is a dick move, you are calling the Dev's dicks too.

[Tethler]

I am a professional programmer. Computer programs are programmed by humans. A computer program action is simply automated human will. I am asking you to be consistent. If you think legacy item removal is a dick move, you are calling the Dev's dicks too.

The devs are following an explicit fixed timeline. Players waking the sleeper is optional.

One of those will happen, the other probably will happen, but doesn't have to.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The devs are following an explicit fixed timeline. Players waking the sleeper is optional.

One of those will happen, the other probably will happen, but doesn't have to.

The Dev's are not required to follow that timeline, they have agency over their actions. Same with the players.

[Tethler]

The Dev's are not required to follow that timeline

It's the literal purpose of this project. While it's true they could change it, it's a dumb argument because them going by the timeline is the stated goal of this project. They are working within their self-imposed limitations for a reason.

Also, intent plays a part. The devs aren't doing it to be spiteful. Players certainly are though. Hence the "dick move".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's the literal purpose of this project. While it's true they could change it, it's a dumb argument because them going by the timeline is the stated goal of this project. They are working within their self-imposed limitations for a reason.

Also, intent plays a part. The devs aren't doing it to be spiteful. Players certainly are though. Hence the "dick move".

You are being inconsistent again. If your logic is P99 must follow the classic timeline, waking sleeper is the intended result. You can't have it both ways hehe. That means waking Sleeper is the intended result, and thus simply another legacy item removal.

[Tethler]

You are being inconsistent again. If your logic is P99 must follow the classic timeline, waking sleeper is the intended result. You can't have it both ways hehe. That means waking Sleeper is the intended result, and thus simply another legacy item removal.

Nah, I'm not being inconsistent. The devs and the players are two separate groups with two separate goals. They don't have to follow the same logic.

Waking the sleeper is 100% optional.

The server could finish the timeline and roll into blue (or whatever ends up happening) with a still sleeping Kerafyrm. There is nothing that requires this event to take place.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nah, I'm not being inconsistent. The devs and the players are two separate groups with two separate goals. They don't have to follow the same logic.

Waking the sleeper is 100% optional.

The server could finish the timeline and roll into blue (or whatever ends up happening) with a still sleeping Kerafyrm. There is nothing that requires this event to take place.

You are being inconsistent. If you believe legacy items should be removed at all, you are of the same mind as the Developers. You cannot be mad when it happens.

[Tethler]

You are being inconsistent. If you believe legacy items should be removed at all, you are of the same mind as the Developers. You cannot be mad when it happens.

Nope. Waking the sleeper is in our (the players) control. The other (legacy items removal) are not in our control. Players having the ability to unilaterally remove other player's access to content is a very different situation.

I know you're smart enough to understand the difference there. So I'm going to assume that you're being unnecessarily pedantic just for the purpose of trolling. Have a good day, I'm done with this conversation.

[Fammaden]

You are being inconsistent. If you believe legacy items should be removed at all, you are of the same mind as the Developers. You cannot be mad when it happens.

You haven't addressed the point of intent. You admittedly said the intent of waking Kerafyrm is loot denial. Do you believe the dev's intent in ending legacy item drops is also "loot denial"? That they have the same motivations as players would in not wanting late comers to have a chance at the same loot?

The reason its in the timeline is because the original designers decided the items shouldn't exist in the game in that form for balance purposes. Our devs are just mimicking that timeline verbatim, not with an agenda to "deny loot".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You haven't addressed the point of intent. You admittedly said the intent of waking Kerafyrm is loot denial. Do you believe the dev's intent in ending legacy item drops is also "loot denial"? That they have the same motivations as players would in not wanting late comers to have a chance at the same loot?

The reason its in the timeline is because the original designers decided the items shouldn't exist in the game in that form for balance purposes. Our devs are just mimicking that timeline verbatim, not with an agenda to "deny loot".

Yes, the Dev's intent of removing legacy items is "loot denial". That is literally the point. If they thought this was mean/unfair, etc., they would have changed the legacy item removal system. The Dev's intent to keep the Sleeper mechanic classic is to initiate legacy item removal. They simply put the switch in the player's hands, rather than on a fixed timeline.

And as I keep saying (which people keep conveniently ignoring), keeping the Warders alive is "loot denial" of Essence Lens. So that argument falls apart, because one group of players is getting denied items, no matter which option you choose, waking the Sleeper or keeping him asleep.

Nope. Waking the sleeper is in our (the players) control. The other (legacy items removal) are not in our control. Players having the ability to unilaterally remove other player's access to content is a very different situation.

I know you're smart enough to understand the difference there. So I'm going to assume that you're being unnecessarily pedantic just for the purpose of trolling. Have a good day, I'm done with this conversation.

Nope, I am not being unnecessarily pedantic to troll. You just keep claiming this nebulous idea of "It's way different", without giving a good reason. That isn't a valid argument hehe, it is just being lazy. If you can honestly explain the difference, that would be great.

[wuanahto]

Think the devs/gms might wake the sleeper as punishment and say "better luck next server"?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The disconnect here is applying the argument of "players having the ability to deny loot is a dick move" to P99. Legacy item loot denial is a part of the game, and everybody but the most green of players understands that certain items get removed after a certain period of time. If you don't get the item in time, you don't get it.

Your argument would be valid if the Sleeper mechanic was the only situation in which legacy items got removed, AND Essence Lens didn't have the prerequisite of the Sleeper being awoken first. But neither of those are true, so the argument falls apart.

[loramin]

Death, you're being a pedant.

When the game kills you, or stops dropping loot, or does anything else negative, is it in some sense "dickish"? Yes.

Can any reasonably intelligent human (this includes you) understand the difference between the "dickishness" of a computer program, and the dickishness of humans who choose to be dicks? Also yes ...

... unless they have no actual argument to make, and pedantry is all they have left. so they "lean in to stupid" as you are doing so they can keep arguing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Death, you're being a pedant.

When the game kills you, or stops dropping loot, or does anything else negative, is it in some sense "dickish"? Yes.

Can any reasonably intelligent human (this includes you) understand the difference between the "dickishness" of a computer program, and the dickishness of humans who choose to be dicks? Also yes ...

... unless they have no actual argument to make, and pedantry is all they have left. so they "lean in to stupid" as you are doing so they can keep arguing.

Your argument about computers is fallacious on it's face. If you program a computer to automatically launch nuclear missiles at random time intervals, you blame the human who wrote the program. You don't shrug your shoulders and say "The programmer didn't intend to be a dick, the computer is launching the nukes!"

Please answer me straight: What gives you the right to deny Essence Lens to players? By leaving the Sleeper sleeping, you are actively participating in loot denial.

[Ooloo]

Please answer me straight: What gives you the right to deny Essence Lens to players? By leaving the Sleeper sleeping, you are actively participating in loot denial.

I agree that ST have the right to wake the sleeper and deny lootz, but this isn't really a valid comparison. If a guild really wants that quest line, they'll just wake the sleeper themselves to get it. Pre-wake warder drops are *already* available, and one guild can choose to make them not available anymore. The lens can be turned *on*, whereas warder loot can only be turned *off*. So it's different, you're expanding the definition of "loot denial" to fit that under the umbrella.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I agree that ST have the right to wake the sleeper and deny lootz, but this isn't really a valid comparison. If a guild really wants that quest line, they'll just wake the sleeper themselves to get it. Pre-wake warder drops are *already* available, and one guild can choose to make them not available anymore. The lens can be turned *on*, whereas warder loot can only be turned *off*. So it's different, you're expanding the definition of "loot denial" to fit that under the umbrella.

That doesn't make sense because Essence Lens requires Warder loot to be turned off. You can't open up Essence Lens without closing Warder loot. There is no way to wake sleeper AND keep warders up. If that was the case, people would indeed keep the Warders up for more items.

Arguing about waking the sleeper is really an argument about who deserves what loot more: Warriors/Monks for robe/scepter, or most other classes with Essence Lens? What gives you the right to decide? There is no right answer, which is why it isn't a dick move. Warriors/Monks become sad when Sleeper dies, but other classes become happy. This isn't a situation where the only thing you do is turn off loot.

[Tunabros]

loramin shut up bruh

no one cares

[loramin]

That doesn't make sense because Essence Lens requires Warder loot to be turned off. You can't open up Essence Lens without closing Warder loot. There is no way to wake sleeper AND keep warders up. If that was the case, people would indeed keep the Warders up for more items.

Arguing about waking the sleeper is really an argument about who deserves what loot more: Warriors/Monks for robe/scepter, or most other classes with Essence Lens? What gives you the right to decide? There is no right answer, which is why it isn't a dick move. Warriors/Monks become sad when Sleeper dies, but other classes become happy. This isn't a situation where the only thing you do is turn off loot.

A) we're talking about a single item vs. a whole zone's worth of items

B) regardless, even if it was switched and post-Sleeper we got a bunch of items ... it's still a small minority of players denying the entire server, without that server having any say in the matter ... aka a "dick move"

P.S. And if you'd actually brought this point up ten pages ago (instead of repeating "but the game allows it!" for pages) we could have ... been at this point 10 pages ago :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A) we're talking about a single item vs. a whole zone's worth of items

B) regardless, even if it was switched and post-Sleeper we got a bunch of items ... it's still a small minority of players denying the entire server, without that server having any say in the matter ... aka a "dick move"

P.S. And if you'd actually brought this point up ten pages ago (instead of repeating "but the game allows it!" for pages) we could have ... been at this point 10 pages ago :)

I didn't keep repeating "the game allows it". You just don't read what I say lol. I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink. You really need to learn how to read what people say properly, because it is painfully obvious you aren't reading if you go back through the posts. It doesn't help your argument at all.

The biggest raid guild on the server, who plays way more than you do, does have more of a say than you do in raid matters. That is the only fair way to do it, if you put in the time, you get the benefits.

I am glad to see you have gone away from your computer program analogies at least:)

You still haven't countered my point about you "loot denying" the whole server Essence Lens. It's the same thing, either way people aren't getting the loot they want, so your point is moot here.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Essence_Lens_Quest It's 5 great items, not one.

Most Warder loot isn't that great to be honest (Many other raid pieces are better), so it isn't a "Whole Zone's worth". Basically the only Warder Loot worth getting is Scepter of Destruction, Shroud of Longetivity, and Tinker's Mask for vanity. The Essence Lens Quest items for Ring and Earring are basically third or second best in slot for all classes, so it is nothing to sneeze at. This is especially good considering BiS Earrings and Rings are AoW or Vulak loot which most players will never get.

[Tethler]

Nope, I am not being unnecessarily pedantic to troll. You just keep claiming this nebulous idea of "It's way different", without giving a good reason. That isn't a valid argument hehe, it is just being lazy. If you can honestly explain the difference, that would be great.

I'll make it real simple for you. Being "dickish" or "pulling a dick move" is a subjective thing. It depends on intent. If a guild chooses to take an optional action with the intended purpose of negatively impacting the rest of the player base, the other people that had no agency in the situation tend to view that negatively. A "dick move" if you will.

All of that BS about "it's part of the server code", "the devs can choose not to implement it" etc. is irrelevant. If the intent of the guild is to "deny pixels", it's pretty cut and dry.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'll make it real simple for you. Being "dickish" or "pulling a dick move" is a subjective thing. It depends on intent. If a guild chooses to take an optional action with the intended purpose of negatively impacting the rest of the player base, the other people that had no agency in the situation tend to view that negatively. A "dick move" if you will.

All of that BS about "it's part of the server code", "the devs can choose not to implement it" etc. is irrelevant. If the intent of the guild is to "deny pixels", it's pretty cut and dry.

It is indeed quite simple. I already went over intent earlier.

Yup. The Dev's intention to remove legacy items is to keep P99 as classic as possible.

The Dev's intention to allow the Sleeper to be awoken is to remove legacy items to keep P99 as classic as possible.

Same intent. The only difference is the Dev's actually give player's control over when to remove the items, rather than the standard fixed date within the patch timeline. I honestly think that is a pretty cool idea, it gives the player's on the server some say as to when we should remove specific legacy items from the drop table.

Now, you may be asking "What right does Seal Team have to decide this for the entire server"? That is simple, they are the best raiding guild on the server. They have spent more time successfully raiding than anyone else, so they certainly do have more of a say in this matter than other players. If you put in the time, you get the benefits.

[Tethler]

It is indeed quite simple. I already went over intent earlier.

That's just a bunch of irrelivent spin. If the goal of the person or group performing the action is to the intentional detriment of others, it's dickish.

Comparing devs to Seal Team or any other guild is disingenuous because they absolutely do not have the same intent. The intent of devs is to follow a classic timeline, which happens to include item removal. The intent of a guild denying pixels is to solidify some type of perceived advantage after having acquired that advantage for themselves.

A guild farming as much as possible, and then permenantly shutting everyone else out from the content the moment viable competition arrives and devs following a clearly laid out timeline are laughably different things.

The fact that you're going through these excessive mental gymnastics shows that you're either trying really hard to justify dick behavior so you don't feel like the bad guy while engaging in said dick behavior, or you are in fact trolling, because I refuse to believe you are this dense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's just a bunch of irrelivent spin. If the goal of the person or group performing the action is to the intentional detriment of others, it's dickish.

Comparing devs to Seal Team or any other guild is disingenuous because they absolutely do not have the same intent. The intent of devs is to follow a classic timeline, which happens to include item removal. The intent of a guild denying pixels is to solidify some type of perceived advantage after having acquired that advantage for themselves.

A guild farming as much as possible, and then permenantly shutting everyone else out from the content the moment viable competition arrives and devs following a clearly laid out timeline are laughably different things.

The fact that you're going through these excessive mental gymnastics shows that you're either trying really hard to justify dick behavior so you don't feel like the bad guy while engaging in said dick behavior, or you are in fact trolling, because I refuse to believe you are this dense.

The simple issue here is you don't like Seal Team, so you attributing the worst possible intent to them, all the while ignoring the basic logic of the situation.

1. No matter what you are denying items to players, either Essence Lens or Warder Loot.

2. Seal Team's intent realistically matches the Dev's intent, not your twisted assumption.

3. Seal Team has more say on this than you because they play the game more.

4. The "classic timeline" statistically is waking the sleeper based on all the sleepers awoken on live and on blue.

5. The devs are not duty bound to follow the timeline exactly, and in many cases have not. There are plenty of non classic mechanics the Dev's have implemented to improve players experience. Removing the Sleeper mechanic is not one, and they had 10 years to do it.

[Tethler]

The simple issue here is you don't like Seal Team, so you attributing the worst possible intent to them

False. I have no ill will toward anyone in seal team, neither the players nor leadership. I have had generally positive experiences with ST members.


1. No matter what you are denying items to players, either Essence Lens or Warder Loot.

This essence lens argument you keep bringing up is a joke. Access to a quest that provides 0 BiS items vs 4 raid mobs, 3 that can be farmed weekly to maintain loot acquisition. The loot output of killable warders easily outweighs access to 1 quest.



2. Seal Team's intent realistically matches the Dev's intent, not your twisted assumption.

Yeah, totally. The ST approach to sleeper is that it's in the code, so they have no choice but to wake it. Lol, dude.

I have no doubt they will wake the sleeper at some point. If they do it right when they have viable competition in Sleepers Tomb, the intent will be clear as day.

Not bothering responding to points 3-5 because they're dumb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

False. I have no ill will toward anyone in seal team, neither the players nor leadership. I have had generally positive experiences with ST members.

You clearly do, because your whole argument rests around intent, and you seem to assume they are just sitting around waiting with baited breath for the moment they can deny your pixels and laugh in your face about it.

What if that is not their intent, and they just want to do the sleeper fight like every other big guild on servers past?

[Albanwr]

People complaining about this have no intention of even trying to get Sleepers loot. What on earth.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People complaining about this have no intention of even trying to get Sleepers loot. What on earth.

[Tethler]

I mentioned intent as a direct response to your assertion that it couldn't possibly be a dick move to wake the sleeper because the devs put it in the game.

Denying pixels was the stated reason for sleeper being awakened on blue, and it likely will be here too.

If not, that's great, but I doubt it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mentioned intent as a direct response to your assertion that it couldn't possibly be a dick move to wake the sleeper because the devs put it in the game.

I never made that assertion lol. That was Loramin's imaginary idea of my argument. Feel free to look back and check. I even outlined a possibility where it could be a dick move.

[Tunabros]

no one in this thread has ever got warder loot

let that sink in

[DeathsSilkyMist]

no one in this thread has ever got warder loot

let that sink in

[Tethler]

no one in this thread has ever got warder loot

let that sink in

Thread needs more ripquozko or however you spell his name.

[Ripqozko]

i do, sorry yall dont got tho

edit: hope that helps.

[Tethler]

edit: hope that helps.

Good save there

[Tunabros]

i do, sorry yall dont got tho

edit: hope that helps.

doubt

[Modwolf]

Whoever wakes sleeper is a dick.

[Ripqozko]

doubt

ill be glad to log on blue and show ya, LMK. Sorry you dont got, hope that helps.

[Tunabros]

no one cares you got a writ of dragonkind or some resistance stone

hope this helps

[Ripqozko]

no one cares you got a writ of dragonkind or some resistance stone

hope this helps

Sorry you have never been, one day you too can kill a warder, probably not.

Hope that helps.

[Tunabros]

Sorry you have never been, one day you too can kill a warder, probably not.

Hope that helps.

mad, bad, sad, and most likely lying

"hope this helps" (lol?)

[Toxigen]

hope this helps

hope that helped