CoWorker said the border was at fault that non-vaxed ppl are dying

[Botten]

Today my CoWorker said the border was at fault that non-vaxed ppl are dying to Covid.

I then said well.. time to get the vaccine I guess, right.
His response was the vaccine is killing everyone who takes it.

I told him over 160,000,000 in the US have been fully vaccinated.

I asked him what are you listening to on your radio on your head phones all day. He told me wayne allyn root. He also, if to reinforce and reassure me, proceeded to tell me Fox is saying the same thing.

I tried to tell him nah thats not right look:

Foxnews is saying those not vaccinated are the bulk of those with covid...
https://www.foxnews.com/health/mississippis-covid-19-cases-delta-unvaccinated-people

He then told me you can't believe that information its all fake and the article was written by a left leaning hack.

He then angrily told me my business can't force me to take the vaccine.
I told him ... but they aren't, calm down.
He then said he isn't taking no tests either, I told him they aren't making thou either.

[HalflingSpergand]

I'm sorry i read this

[Evia]

I'm sorry i read this

[Jibartik]

Covid is the rapture.

Xd_kKzLMpN4

[Thorgrimm]

Put your mask on and STFU OP

[Gwaihir]

I'll take things that never happened for 1000$, Alex

The highest demographic majority of the unvaxxed are of African American descent. Would you please stop pushing for pogroms against minorities. We understand your dogwhistling racism.
Back away from the internet

Post screenshot with nose.

[starkind]

I only mask up to scoop my kitties litter.

[loramin]

This whole phenomena of willfully risking death unnecessarily is just so incredible to me. I mean, I get it: people invest their identity in Trump and QAnon, which means they have to accept Trump/QAnon beliefs or else question their identity (something we humans hate doing: we're extremely tribal creatures). That "stick to your beliefs/tribe's beliefs" force is literally stronger than our natural self-preservation force.

But even though I understand it on some level, it just feels like the bad punchline to a Simpsons joke or something. In 20 years from now, people just won't even understand how millions of Americans willfully chose to get Covid and die; it won't make any sense at all to them out of context.

[HalflingSpergand]

This whole phenomena of willfully risking death unnecessarily is just so incredible to me. I mean, I get it: people invest their identity in Trump and QAnon, which means they have to accept Trump/QAnon beliefs or else question their identity (something we humans hate doing: we're extremely tribal creatures). That "stick to your beliefs/tribe's beliefs" force is literally stronger than our natural self-preservation force.

But even though I understand it on some level, it just feels like the bad punchline to a Simpsons joke or something. In 20 years from now, people just won't even understand how millions of Americans willfully chose to get Covid and die; it won't make any sense at all to them out of context.
Ever drive in an automobile going 70. And I'm giving you the benefit of imagining covid is a real risk

[Thorgrimm]

This whole phenomena of willfully risking death unnecessarily is just so incredible to me. I mean, I get it: people invest their identity in Trump and QAnon, which means they have to accept Trump/QAnon beliefs or else question their identity (something we humans hate doing: we're extremely tribal creatures). That "stick to your beliefs/tribe's beliefs" force is literally stronger than our natural self-preservation force.

But even though I understand it on some level, it just feels like the bad punchline to a Simpsons joke or something. In 20 years from now, people just won't even understand how millions of Americans willfully chose to get Covid and die; it won't make any sense at all to them out of context.

It literally has a 99.7% survival rate

You're just pushing fear porn

[Botten]

Loramin, I agree.

I have a coworker so frustrated he is acting out of confused rage now.

He actually has misdirected rage that he is being told one thing to believe from these extreme radio hosts and seeing another reality before his eyes. Worse he is being told to be afraid by both political sides.

I get it he is ultimately afraid he could go to the hospital from this all. And he has diabetes too.

Sanity flies out the window, when we have ppl blaming the ones trying to help them.

[Evia]

Except what if they're not actually trying to help you at all?
I mean, the Bible says if you ever need know if something is good or bad is to look at their fruits. If they bare good fruit then you know they're good. If they bare bad fruit then be wary.

All the talking heads on TV, at the cdc, and our own government are doing is creating fear, hatred, separation, and war with their fruits.

The anti vaxxers are just minding their own business and haven't done anything wrong besides simply exist and have different views on health care. It's preposterous that because your preventative medicine isn't preventing well enough that other people must subscribe to your belief structure otherwise it's immoral? The only things that is immoral is expecting someone else to adhere to your beliefs because you're afraid.

[Jibartik]

What do you think they are going to say the civil war 2 was not over vaccines? BLM? Masks?

[Gwaihir]

You're terminally stupid. Pearl clutching boomers afraid of catching the common cold got you fully retarded.
15327

[Gwaihir]

It literally has a 99.7% survival rate

You're just pushing fear porn

It's boomers dying of natural causes.

[Trexller]

I need a "beater" laptop that can run games n shit

would you guys pay 800 for this used alienware?

CPU: 6th generation intel core i7 (4core/8threads)
Ram: 32gb ddr4
Graphics: Nvidia GeForce GTX 980m 8gb
Storage: 500gb NVME ssd(boot)
Screen: 17in HD 4K resolution
Windows 10 pro
Wi-Fi
Bluetooth

[Bardp1999]

Can everyone shut the fuck up about Covid - No one gives a shit if you get vaxxed or not, just stop talking about it

[Synphul]

The anti vaxxers are just minding their own business and haven't done anything wrong besides simply exist and have different views on health care. It's preposterous that because your preventative medicine isn't preventing well enough that other people must subscribe to your belief structure otherwise it's immoral? The only things that is immoral is expecting someone else to adhere to your beliefs because you're afraid.

This is well put. Many people are quick to hop on the 'science' train because, just like most technology, people want the latest and greatest and don't often think about the consequences of having/using it. Most of the science going into these vaccines is new and people absolutely have the right to be leery of A.) new technology and B.) a falliable government pushing it on them. In the grand scheme of things vaccination itself is a recent technology in human history - sorry guys 200 hundred years isn't that long when viewed from outside the context of a single human lifespan. This new mRNA technology is supposedly cutting edge technology and we're so quick to hate on people that have reservations about it when it is largely untested? Long term studies are done for a reason. Mix in politics with vaccinations and I can't see why anyone would hate on someone that's skeptical about putting it in their body. Most of the people I hear that have reservations about it have to do more with it's complete lack of long term case study than anything to do with the goverment or politics.

I'm not pitching pro/anti-vax anything, just that maybe we should take under consideration that it's actually normal for people to have some of these reservations and that, if history has taught us anything, they should. Tell me this, who are you going to sue to cover your medical costs in 10-15 years if it ends up there are some unforeseen long term consequences of mRNA mingling? Can't sue the gov or the pharmas, so you're just hoping they will willingly take care of you for their mistake? It's not outside the realm of reality to be concerned for your future, or your childrens' future when you have to decide something like this for them, but in a society where most people can't think further than today or maybe tomorrow, I'm not surprised so many have developed a blind loyalty to goverment and the science of the day.

Can everyone shut the fuck up about Covid - No one gives a shit if you get vaxxed or not, just stop talking about it

If you get that triggered you should stop clicking on threads where it's obvious in the title it will be about COVID-related shit.

[Trexller]

I need a "beater" laptop that can run games n shit

would you guys pay 800 for this used alienware?

CPU: 6th generation intel core i7 (4core/8threads)
Ram: 32gb ddr4
Graphics: Nvidia GeForce GTX 980m 8gb
Storage: 500gb NVME ssd(boot)
Screen: 17in HD 4K resolution
Windows 10 pro
Wi-Fi
Bluetooth

So... thoughts, anyone?

[HalflingSpergand]

Should work for blackburrow imo

[Pulgasari]

So... thoughts, anyone?

seems conspicuous

[Trexller]

seems conspicuous

huh?

con·spic·u·ous
/kənˈspikyo͞oəs/

adjective: conspicuous

standing out so as to be clearly visible.

[Ooloo]

The vaccine is highly effective, it's true. Luckily covid isn't really very dangerous at all even if you get it and aren't vaccinated. Depends on who you are, how healthy you are, how old you are. Many diseases kill far more children than covid and we do literally nothing about them other than "boy there's a bad bug goin 'round!".

What the covid cult still has never answered is why this disease is magically different than a thousand others that are as much if not more deadly. The delta variant is more contagious!! Okay but how dangerous is it? Well, er, I mean, you have 99.9% chance of not being hospitalized let alone dying if you're healthy and you get it. So it's basically ebola guys.

[Pulgasari]

Many diseases kill far more children than covid and we do literally nothing about them other than "boy there's a bad bug goin 'round!".


Used to be a lot more...but we did something about it. :rolleyes:

[Jibartik]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-high-alert-delta-variant-covid-19-spreads-five-provinces-n1275473

[Gwaihir]

Used to be a lot more...but we did something about it. :rolleyes:

That's highly arguable.

Throughout the history of vaccination, the vaccines are generally always released wayyyy after the initial onslaught and proliferation.

Take the polio vaccine for example. If you look at the infection growth curve, polio was nearly extinct when the vaccination for it came out.

Stupid ass leftists are always quick to say correlation does not equal causation, and this is a perfect example where that logic very much applies.

There has never been a vaccination released while a disease is on an upward growth trajectory which the vaccination causes a sudden marked decline.

As such, we can't even prove vaccination works at all, except for perhaps rabies or tetanus.

[Pulgasari]

That's highly arguable.

Throughout the history of vaccination, the vaccines are generally always released wayyyy after the initial onslaught and proliferation.

Take the polio vaccine for example. If you look at the infection growth curve, polio was nearly extinct when the vaccination for it came out.

Stupid ass leftists are always quick to say correlation does not equal causation, and this is a perfect example where that logic very much applies.

There has never been a vaccination released while a disease is on an upward growth trajectory which the vaccination causes a sudden marked decline.

As such, we can't even prove vaccination works at all, except for perhaps rabies or tetanus.

Childhood mortality in general, not just vaccines. Diversity is our strength.

[Botten]

The anti vaxxers are just minding their own business and haven't done anything wrong besides simply exist and have different views on health care. It's preposterous that because your preventative medicine isn't preventing well enough that other people must subscribe to your belief structure otherwise it's immoral? The only things that is immoral is expecting someone else to adhere to your beliefs because you're afraid.

https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/pfizer-pill-to-treat-covid-19

From this article it sympathizes with others, that it is the anti-vax community that is now hindering our chances to get over this virus quicker. But thankfully we will soon have the pill and if Covid is caught early it will help to reduce the virus even more.

I guess in one silver lining, if the feds or business finalize on whether those that don’t take the vaccine need to take weekly tests this pill could save their lives and further slow the spread of the disease.

[Thorgrimm]

https://www.health.com/condition/infectious-diseases/coronavirus/pfizer-pill-to-treat-covid-19

From this article it sympathizes with others, that it is the anti-vax community that is now hindering our chances to get over this virus quicker. But thankfully we will soon have the pill and if Covid is caught early it will help to reduce the virus even more.

I guess in one silver lining, if the feds or business finalize on whether those that don’t take the vaccine need to take weekly tests this pill could save their lives and further slow the spread of the disease.

There is no such thing as an "anti vax community"

It's a made up term

[imperiouskitten]

I'm sorry i read this

i didnt even do that haha

[Ooloo]

Used to be a lot more...but we did something about it. :rolleyes:

Yeah we shut down society and caused a spike in alcoholism and a million other diseases and now everyone is a paranoid lunatic who thinks you need to wear a mask everywhere even *after* getting vaccinated cause the president said so meanwhile covid basically only kills people who are already on the verge of death.

Oh no the delta variant! If I get it I almost certainly will not get seriously ill let alone die! Oh no!

[HalflingSpergand]

Smart

[Ooloo]

Doctuh Fauci needs ya ta wear a meeeeasssskkkkk, ok pizanno??

[Pulgasari]

Yeah we shut down society and caused a spike in alcoholism and a million other diseases and now everyone is a paranoid lunatic who thinks you need to wear a mask everywhere even *after* getting vaccinated cause the president said so meanwhile covid basically only kills people who are already on the verge of death.

Oh no the delta variant! If I get it I almost certainly will not get seriously ill let alone die! Oh no!

Who shut down society tho and why are they/them a good President? :o

[Ooloo]

Who shut down society tho and why are they a good President? :o

Mainly democrat governors. The lockdowns made sense at the beginning, when we didn't understand anything about the virus and it was still new to us. 18 months later we are just acting like retards. It's barely dangerous, it's gonna be okay guys.

I'm sure once covid is gone we will get right on eliminating the common cold and the flu and pnemonia and chicken pox and shingles and alzheimer's. We can't do any of that until covid is gone though. Then we will finally be able to live forever.

[Pulgasari]

Mainly democrat governors. The lockdowns made sense at the beginning, when we didn't understand anything about the virus and it was still new to us. 18 months later we are just acting like retards. It's barely dangerous, it's gonna be okay guys.

The buck stops with Whom?

[Ooloo]

The buck stops with Whom?

What? Look I don't get what you're asking. I can tell you're being coy and clever, but wtf point are you actually making? Why not just say it instead of sidestepping everything else I said?

[Pulgasari]

What? Look I don't get what you're asking. I can tell you're being coy and clever, but wtf point are you actually making? Why not just say it instead of sidestepping everything else I said?

If you're mad about the lockdowns(*USA version, non-meaningful), blame Mr Turmp. You were fine with them until he left. u hycprotic!

[Gwaihir]

Anyone still believing in Covid has the IQ of an Australian aborigine.

[Gwaihir]

Childhood mortality in general, not just vaccines. Diversity is our strength.

Diversity is shit. That's why the US is rapidly losing ground to a Chinese ethnostate while we get dumber fatter and lazier.

[Ooloo]

If you're mad about the lockdowns(*USA version, non-meaningful), blame Mr Turmp. You were fine with them until he left. u hycprotic!

So I guess you didn't see the part where I said lockdowns made sense at first, but now they don't, and it's like 99% democrat governance keeping them in place. Florida (republican governor) was never locked down and had nearly identical rates of infection as california (super duper democrat governor) who was locked down the entire time and is now locking down again. It doesn't work, it makes no sense. We don't do this for any other disease. It's idiotic.

[Pulgasari]

So I guess you didn't see the part where I said lockdowns made sense at first, but now they don't, and it's like 99% democrat governance keeping them in place. Florida (republican governor) was never locked down and had nearly identical rates of infection as california (super duper democrat governor) who was locked down the entire time and is now locking down again. It doesn't work, it makes no sense. We don't do this for any other disease. It's idiotic.

The threat is the same as it always was to high-risk populations. You just want your cheap McDoubles even if it means we have to incinerate Grandma.

Hollow, completely, you are.

[Thorgrimm]

Mainly democrat governors. The lockdowns made sense at the beginning, when we didn't understand anything about the virus and it was still new to us. 18 months later we are just acting like retards. It's barely dangerous, it's gonna be okay guys.

I'm sure once covid is gone we will get right on eliminating the common cold and the flu and pnemonia and chicken pox and shingles and alzheimer's. We can't do any of that until covid is gone though. Then we will finally be able to live forever.

What flu?

It hasn't existed for a year and a half

[Ooloo]

The threat is the same as it always was to high-risk populations. You just want your cheap McDoubles even if it means we have to incinerate Grandma.

Hollow, completely, you are.

The common cold, the flu, pnemonia also all kill grandma. Why weren't you wearing a mask and hiding inside before covid? You monster, don't you care about grandma? Or other people's grandmas? Clearly you are a heartless monster.

[Ooloo]

What flu?

It hasn't existed for a year and a half

Oh that's right excuse me. I forgot that flu stats disappeared exactly when covid began and nobody finds that the least bit strange!

[Pulgasari]

The common cold, the flu, pnemonia also all kill grandma. Why weren't you wearing a mask and hiding inside before covid? You monster, don't you care about grandma?

"Lockdowns" ended awhile ago though, weird of you to pretend otherwise, doug.

(America ain't got shit on Europe when it comes to state edicts :p)

[Pulgasari]

Diversity is shit. That's why the US is rapidly losing ground to a Chinese ethnostate while we get dumber fatter and lazier.

Was it China that funded and administered the massive reduction in global childhood mortality post-1950?

No, obiviously not. Stop shilling for the Commies :p

[Ooloo]

"Lockdowns" ended awhile ago though, weird of you to pretend otherwise, doug.

(America ain't got shit on Europe when it comes to state edicts :p)

Who is doug? And in some places they did yes, and now they are reinstituting them along with mask mandates in other places. Biden is advocating mask mandates and to essentially go door-to-door to get people to take the vaccine. If somebody doesn't want the vaccine, what possible information is gonna change their mind now?

It's become so hyper partisan and politicized, and I don't blame anybody for that. It's just that common sense seems to be shaking out far more on the right on this issue than on the left, and I care about what's true more than which side it comes from.

[Pulgasari]

Who is doug? And in some places they did yes, and now they are reinstituting them along with mask mandates in other places. Biden is advocating mask mandates and to essentially go door-to-door to get people to take the vaccine. If somebody doesn't want the vaccine, what possible information is gonna change their mind now?

It's become so hyper partisan and politicized, and I don't blame anybody for that. It's just that common sense seems to be shaking out far more on the right on this issue than on the left, and I care about what's true more than which side it comes from.

you are Doug! admit this or be punished harshly. it's really no big deal.

i don' think the feds can do maskdates or mandatory vaccines, you just scare easy because you're a wimp.

[Ooloo]

you are Doug! admit this or be punished harshly. it's really no big deal.

i don' think the feds can do maskdates or mandatory vaccines, you just scare easy because you're a wimp.

How would you know who i am? This is borderline doxxing and I don't appreciate your threats.

The feds can pressure the states to institute mandatory vaccination and lockdowns. They can always say "hey we're not requiring it, but if you don't do it, you basically can't do anything or go anywhere!". It's a sadistic form of coercion that I'm highly averse to when it comes from the most powerful people on earth.

[hobart]

I support the rights of the hero in OP's story. He should not have to get a vaccine or wear a mask. He shouldn't have to take a COVID test either... unless he shows up at a hospital. But if he has COVID symptoms or tests positive for COVID, he needs to be sent home no matter what is wrong with him.

So, why should a business be able to refuse baking a gay wedding cake and be able to force their insurance provider not to cover contraceptives for employees, but they can't mandate a mask or require a vaccine for empliyees? Why do Trumptards hate capitalism? Government work isn't for everyone...

[Ooloo]

I support the rights of the hero in OP's story. He should not have to get a vaccine or wear a mask. He shouldn't have to take a COVID test either... unless he shows up at a hospital. But if he has COVID symptoms or tests positive for COVID, he needs to be sent home no matter what is wrong with him.

So, why should a business be able to refuse baking a gay wedding cake and be able to force their insurance provider not to cover contraceptives for employees, but they can't mandate a mask or require a vaccine for empliyees? Why do Trumptards hate capitalism? Government work isn't for everyone...

Because declining to do something and being forced to do something are different things?

The gay wedding cake thing is super dishonest too because that couple was specifically going around to bakeries until they found one who declined to do it. They were basically fishing for outrage and it was ridiculous.

[Pulgasari]

How would you know who i am? This is borderline doxxing and I don't appreciate your threats.


It's doxxing to say you post in similarly brain-damaged style to your previous account douglasp1999?

Interesting thesis that belongs in the trash.

[Nocht]

Lol I love how anybody that disagrees is always a "Trumptard"

[Pulgasari]

Lol I love how anybody that disagrees is always a "Trumptard"

Doug got banned for rooting for the capitol rioters. He sucks a whole lot.

[Ooloo]

It's doxxing to say you post in similarly brain-damaged style to your previous account douglasp1999?

Interesting thesis that belongs in the trash.

You once again sidestep everything else I said and cherrypick one thing to reply to.

[Pulgasari]

You once again sidestep everything else I said and cherrypick one thing to reply to.

I won't engage with you until you admit it. :cool:

[Ooloo]

I won't engage with you until you admit it. :cool:

That seems suspiciously convenient and also extremely creepy. You have a bit of a god complex mr.pulgasari

[Pulgasari]

That seems suspiciously convenient and also extremely creepy. You have a bit of a god complex mr.pulgasari

Deny it then and be proven wicked.

[Gatordash]

You once again sidestep everything else I said and cherrypick one thing to reply to.

Welcome to internet commenting.

[Pulgasari]

Welcome to internet commenting.

How is it my fault he's too cowardly to admit his previous screenname? :p

[Thorgrimm]

I support the rights of the hero in OP's story. He should not have to get a vaccine or wear a mask. He shouldn't have to take a COVID test either... unless he shows up at a hospital. But if he has COVID symptoms or tests positive for COVID, he needs to be sent home no matter what is wrong with him.

Deal

I have no fear of Covid. It's all fear propaganda on television.

So, why should a business be able to refuse baking a gay wedding cake and be able to force their insurance provider not to cover contraceptives for employees, but they can't mandate a mask or require a vaccine for empliyees? Why do Trumptards hate capitalism? Government work isn't for everyone...

Baking a wedding cake isn't the same thing as forcing an injection of chemicals into your body.

[Botten]

Baking a wedding cake isn't the same thing as forcing an injection of chemicals into your body.

You are probably not going to want to read the use of Ketamine injections in some arresting situations. Rare but kinda happened in Colorado a year to two years ago in fact.

Thou it sounds like I am being condensing it is a very interesting case.

[Thorgrimm]

You are probably not going to want to read the use of Ketamine injections in some arresting situations. Rare but kinda happened in Colorado a year to two years ago in fact.

Thou it sounds like I am being condensing it is a very interesting case.

https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-health-politics-mn-state-wire-us-news-a872ba9aeeba2f5b0624f8af77f928d3

DENVER (AP) — Police stopped Elijah McClain on the street in suburban Denver last year after deeming the young Black man suspicious. He was thrown into a chokehold, threatened with a dog and stun gun, then subjected to another law enforcement tool before he died: a drug called ketamine.

Paramedics inject it into people like McClain as a sedative, often at the behest of police who believe suspects are out of control. Officially, ketamine is used in emergencies when there’s a safety concern for medical staff or the patient. But it’s increasingly found in arrests and has become another flashpoint in the debate over law enforcement policies and brutality against people of color.

An analysis by The Associated Press of policies on ketamine and cases where the drug was used during police encounters uncovered a lack of police training, conflicting medical standards and nonexistent protocols that have resulted in hospitalizations and even deaths.

[hobart]

Deal

I have no fear of Covid. It's all fear propaganda on television.



Baking a wedding cake isn't the same thing as forcing an injection of chemicals into your body.

Me saying, "get vaccinated or don't work here" is not the same as forcing chemicals into your body. You don't have the right to be employed -- including by the FED.

You sound like a liberal crybaby snowflake looking for big government to protect you and enable your own stupidity.

We have two employees who aren't vaccinated. Both are Trumptards. Both nine-year tenures. Both are independent contractors. My very republican boss will 100% let them both go if restrictions are put in place that allow vaccinated workers to stay working and sends non-vaccinated workers home.

[TheBardo]

Let me get this straight. Police in the US are going around killing people by injecting them with horse tranquilisers? It truly is the dumbest country on earth.

[Thorgrimm]

Me saying, "get vaccinated or don't work here" is not the same as forcing chemicals into your body. You don't have the right to be employed -- including by the FED.

You sound like a liberal crybaby snowflake looking for big government to protect you and enable your own stupidity.

We have two employees who aren't vaccinated. Both are Trumptards. Both nine-year tenures. Both are independent contractors. My very republican boss will 100% let them both go if restrictions are put in place that allow vaccinated workers to stay working and sends non-vaccinated workers home.

We're talking about a 99.7% survival rate

You sound like a liberal crybaby snowflake

[Ooloo]

Don't forget guys, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence!

Sincerely, North Korea

You may not work here unless you get your flu shot. I mean after all the flu kills about 100k people a year. For some reason it is magically not important. (Hint: you should either talk about all diseases the same way you talk about covid or explain why it's different)

[Pulgasari]

(Hint: you should either talk about all diseases the same way you talk about covid or explain why it's different)

Appeal to hypocrisy 😴

[Ooloo]

Appeal to hypocrisy 😴

No that's not what that is. An appeal to hypocrisy suggests that an argument is wrong because the person saying it is hypocritical. It doesn't say anything about the actual validity of either side.

If a murderer says "murder is wrong", and then you go "nuh uh appeal to hypocrisy!" what have you actually proven?

[Pulgasari]

No that's not what that is. An appeal to hypocrisy suggests that an argument is wrong because the person saying it is hypocritical. It doesn't say anything about the actual validity of either side.

If a murderer says "murder is wrong", and then you go "nuh uh appeal to hypocrisy!" what have you actually proven?

is an informal fallacy that tries to discredit the validity of the opponent's argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently with its conclusion

[Thorgrimm]

is an informal fallacy that tries to discredit the validity of the opponent's argument by asserting the opponent's failure to act consistently with its conclusion

99.7% survival rate

Mandating vaccines is unhinged and insane

[hobart]

Don't forget guys, freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequence!

Sincerely, North Korea

You may not work here unless you get your flu shot. I mean after all the flu kills about 100k people a year. For some reason it is magically not important. (Hint: you should either talk about all diseases the same way you talk about covid or explain why it's different)

You answered the second part with what you said first.

Also, some employers 100% do require their employees to get a flu shot. But Donald Trump didn't politicize the flu or the the shot to his idiot followers, which is why it's not a big deal and no one cares.

[Pulgasari]

99.7% survival rate

Mandating vaccines is unhinged and insane

Shhh I'm talking to my friend

[Thorgrimm]

You answered the second part with what you said first.

Also, some employers 100% do require their employees to get a flu shot. But Donald Trump didn't politicize the flu or the the shot to his idiot followers, which is why it's not a big deal and no one cares.

Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump Trump

[hobart]

99.7% survival rate

Mandating vaccines is unhinged and insane

If I'm your employer, well, I'd fire you for lack of critical thinking skills which would have obviously manifested in your work by now... But that's not the point.

It has a high survival rate in a country that forced people, some screaming and kicking, into taking basic and non-invasive precautions. What is it in areas where the health care system got overwhelmed? And how did that stressing of the system increase mortality from other illnesses?

You're emboldened by your own stupidity and propped up by those who are smart enough to take basic precautions. You have a 99.7% (or whatever) survival rate thanks to the people who are not as stupid as you are and are willing to take basic precautions.

I don't want your dumb ass getting sick and missing weeks of work on my dime. I don't want you getting my customers sick. I don't want you getting my other employees sick. And I don't want any of the liability all around.

After the dust settles you're going to see a lot more employers mandating not only COVID vaccination, but flu too I bet.

[HalflingSpergand]

Bubble boy

[Thorgrimm]

If I'm your employer, well, I'd fire you for lack of critical thinking skills which would have obviously manifested in your work by now... But that's not the point.

It has a high survival rate in a country that forced people, some screaming and kicking, into taking basic and non-invasive precautions. What is it in areas where the health care system got overwhelmed? And how did that stressing of the system increase mortality from other illnesses?

You're emboldened by your own stupidity and propped up by those who are smart enough to take basic precautions. You have a 99.7% (or whatever) survival rate thanks to the people who are not as stupid as you are and are willing to take basic precautions.

I don't want your dumb ass getting sick and missing weeks of work on my dime. I don't want you getting my customers sick. I don't want you getting my other employees sick. And I don't want any of the liability all around.

After the dust settles you're going to see a lot more employers mandating not only COVID vaccination, but flu too I bet.

Sweden never locked down and did much better than blue state run dictatorships

[hobart]

Sweden never locked down and did much better than blue state run dictatorships

New Zealand did lock down. And they did even better than Sweeden. Neither are America. Countries all over the world had different results based on a number of factors. But we were talking about vaccines...

You can tell Trumptardism is a failed political strategy when you can't even win by moving the goalposts.

[Thorgrimm]

New Zealand did lock down. And they did even better than Sweeden. Neither are America. Countries all over the world had different results based on a number of factors. But we were talking about vaccines...

You can tell Trumptardism is a failed political strategy when you can't even win by moving the goalposts.

New Zealand's economy went into deep recession and they are still going through a mental health crisis. The psychological and economic impact of locking people down is incalculable, especially on children.

A 99.7% Survival rate isn't justification for mandating a vaccine. You're being paranoid. It's not like we're driving around our towns with bodies all over the place littering the streets.

The reality is the justification for lock downs (if there ever was any) is waning. The emergency powers that allowed Dem Governors to engage in their tyrannical fantasies were supposed to have any expiration date when we "flattened the curve".

Now that they are losing their grip we magically get a new "variant" (amplified by corporate media propaganda) to repeat the cycle of Dem abuse on private citizens all over again.

[dcortez]

Today my CoWorker said the border was at fault that non-vaxed ppl are dying to Covid.

If a co-worker said it, then it must be true! :p

[Patriam1066]

99.7% survival rate

Mandating vaccines is unhinged and insane

50% of children used to die before age 5

To go back to that world is unhinged and insane. Mandates are bad, but you should simply be smart enough to not want to be the human equivalent of a mosquito and act as a vector to those less fortunate than yourself

Doesn’t matter, you will know the Lake of Fire. No one escapes God

[hobart]

You realize the 99.7% figure you're quoting, if true, occurs in a reality in which a huge portion of the people social distanced, were locked down, wore masks, and are currently vaccinated, right?

You know what you know because of your politics and then you follow stupid wherever it takes you.

[Mead]

Letting them learn the hard way is the easiest path to keeping your emotional health intact. It's already clear the folks on the other side of the line aren't going to budge. It's been clear singe about half way through last year. Just letting go makes you feel so much better. The recent surge of healthcare memes I've seen about getting paid regardless pretty much expresses the general feelings of those who have dealt with this since day one.

[hobart]

Letting them learn the hard way is the easiest path to keeping your emotional health intact. It's already clear the folks on the other side of the line aren't going to budge. It's been clear singe about half way through last year. Just letting go makes you feel so much better. The recent surge of healthcare memes I've seen about getting paid regardless pretty much expresses the general feelings of those who have dealt with this since day one.

Probably good advice.

There's knowing that your doctor is right and not following the advice -- lose weight, exercise, quit smoking, etc. Then there's being convinced your doctor is lying to you because Donald Trump said so. Who needs expertise when you have 4chan and OAN?

[Thorgrimm]

50% of children used to die before age 5

To go back to that world is unhinged and insane. Mandates are bad, but you should simply be smart enough to not want to be the human equivalent of a mosquito and act as a vector to those less fortunate than yourself

Doesn’t matter, you will know the Lake of Fire. No one escapes God

The child mortality rate from Covid is virtually nil

Nice try though

[Mead]

Probably good advice.

There's knowing that your doctor is right and not following the advice -- lose weight, exercise, quit smoking, etc. Then there's being convinced your doctor is lying to you because Donald Trump said so. Who needs expertise when you have 4chan and OAN?

Most of the hospitals in South Florida are giving their nursing staff and even techs 10-15 dollars extra an hour. Also $750-1k every extra shift you pick up. That's on top of the bonus rate, overtime, and other shift differentials. A lot of travelers are making between 150-300k a year, and also getting paid extra to pick up. Physicians are picking up extra shifts throughout different hospitals. It's amazing.

[Mesocyclone]

The Pentagon and Air Force did 9/11

[HalflingSpergand]

The ol who dunnit

[Jibartik]

"See 99.7 survival rate and now I have these cool antibodies."

https://i.imgur.com/enprZHQ.png

[Patriam1066]

The child mortality rate from Covid is virtually nil

Nice try though

Doesn’t matter. You chose to be a human vector. You don’t escape God

[Mblake1981]

Letting them learn the hard way is the easiest path to keeping your emotional health intact. It's already clear the folks on the other side of the line aren't going to budge. It's been clear singe about half way through last year. Just letting go makes you feel so much better. The recent surge of healthcare memes I've seen about getting paid regardless pretty much expresses the general feelings of those who have dealt with this since day one.

Good to have your priorities straight.

[Gatordash]

CJvEgnCK2v4

Pretty strong case to just go get the vaccine.

[HalflingSpergand]

LOL

[Gwaihir]

Thank you for watching C-NPC

[maskedmelon]

50% of children used to die before age 5

To go back to that world is unhinged and insane. Mandates are bad, but you should simply be smart enough to not want to be the human equivalent of a mosquito and act as a vector to those less fortunate than yourself

Doesn’t matter, you will know the Lake of Fire. No one escapes God

I thought that you hate fat people tho? The majority of co-morbidities accounting for this cold’s disproportionately high death toll on Americans is associated with obesity. This is about people outsourcing the burden of their failed lifestyle choices. Murrika.

[starkind]

It's delusional to think you can force someone to be considerate, conscientious, a team player, good, moral, selfless, caring, empathic.

It's also delusional to put up with bullshit and let any one walk all over you or disregard you or your welfare or the welfare of others.

This is the hard red line and as a culture and society. We are way way beyond it way out in the red.

God bless.

[Nirgon]

Today my CoWorker said the border was at fault that non-vaxed ppl are dying to Covid.

I then said well.. time to get the vaccine I guess, right.
His response was the vaccine is killing everyone who takes it.

I told him over 160,000,000 in the US have been fully vaccinated.

I asked him what are you listening to on your radio on your head phones all day. He told me wayne allyn root. He also, if to reinforce and reassure me, proceeded to tell me Fox is saying the same thing.

I tried to tell him nah thats not right look:

Foxnews is saying those not vaccinated are the bulk of those with covid...
https://www.foxnews.com/health/mississippis-covid-19-cases-delta-unvaccinated-people

He then told me you can't believe that information its all fake and the article was written by a left leaning hack.

He then angrily told me my business can't force me to take the vaccine.
I told him ... but they aren't, calm down.
He then said he isn't taking no tests either, I told him they aren't making thou either.


Fox News is completely cucked, controlled misinfo garbage.

Get an OAN sub.

[hobart]

Fox News is completely cucked, controlled misinfo garbage.

Get an OAN sub.

From Trumptard to full-on crazy. Trust in Q and do your own research!

[blindedsoul]

Fox News is completely cucked, controlled misinfo garbage.

Get an OAN sub.

Explains all the batshit crazy stuff you keep floating with no basis in reality. Fact checking? leave that for the other people full steam ahead on I like this insane alternative reality it triggers FEELINGS!

[Pulgasari]

Explains all the batshit crazy stuff you keep floating with no basis in reality. Fact checking? leave that for the other people full steam ahead on I like this insane alternative reality it triggers FEELINGS!

he wants you to flip out on him, that's why he says it. may or may not believe it himself, that's besides the point.

[Horza]

he wants you to flip out on him, that's why he says it. may or may not believe it himself, that's besides the point.

It's Nirgon, he absolutely believes it himself.

[unsunghero]

Explains all the batshit crazy stuff you keep floating with no basis in reality. Fact checking? leave that for the other people full steam ahead on I like this insane alternative reality it triggers FEELINGS!

It’s easy to spot “independent” fact checkers complete partisanship if you just read enough of them. The one that solidified it for me was a “fact check” about the statement that one of the people shot by Kyle Rittenhouse was a sex offender

The fact check (I forget if it was politico or snopes, one of those), basically took multiple paragraphs to say “well yes, he was convicted of a past crime of sexual assault of a minor” in a really roundabout way and then a full paragraph talking about past good deeds the person had done and then another paragraph saying that he didn’t deserve to die for being a sex offender

That was complete obvious bias. 1.) the statement was never about his past good deeds, no one gives a shit. It was whether or not he was a convicted sex offender and 2.) the statement was never about whether he deserved to die for being a sex offender, only whether he was one or not

The bias for the dead liberal was so fucking obvious in the fact check I wouldn’t be surprised if the staff that wrote it would have offered him a handjob if he were still alive to try to see if they could swing his sexual interests away from children

[unsunghero]

You realize the 99.7% figure you're quoting, if true, occurs in a reality in which a huge portion of the people social distanced, were locked down, wore masks, and are currently vaccinated, right?

You know what you know because of your politics and then you follow stupid wherever it takes you.

Want to survive COVID? Don’t be fat

Fox had some balls to run this article, because it goes against the conservative anti-vax narrative. You can’t tell the dude was fat as shit from the face pic, but the body shots you can see he was 300+

“ Dad sends heartbreaking text before death: ‘I should have gotten the damn vaccine’
https://www.foxnews.com/us/vaccine-dad-sends-heartbreaking-text-before-death

From one of the comments on the article:


“ My son is an MD in a hospital that has seen many, many covid patients. He told me just the other day, that the big warning, which was never given, because it just wasn't PC, is that every SINGLE patient he saw in his hospital was obese. That is the part nobody told you. It is heavily targeting obese people. They don't do well.”

The person who posted the comment is wrong. There as been tons of articles written mentioning that covid kills fat people at a rate of like 8-1 to healthy weight people. It should be common knowledge if you read the news

[HalflingSpergand]

So then youre saying I'm not big beautiful and big boned? Bigot

[Horza]

It’s easy to spot “independent” fact checkers complete partisanship if you just read enough of them. The one that solidified it for me was a “fact check” about the statement that one of the people shot by Kyle Rittenhouse was a sex offender

The fact check (I forget if it was politico or snopes, one of those), basically took multiple paragraphs to say “well yes, he was convicted of a past crime of sexual assault of a minor” in a really roundabout way and then a full paragraph talking about past good deeds the person had done and then another paragraph saying that he didn’t deserve to die for being a sex offender

That was complete obvious bias. 1.) the statement was never about his past good deeds, no one gives a shit. It was whether or not he was a convicted sex offender and 2.) the statement was never about whether he deserved to die for being a sex offender, only whether he was one or not

The bias for the dead liberal was so fucking obvious in the fact check I wouldn’t be surprised if the staff that wrote it would have offered him a handjob if he were still alive to try to see if they could swing his sexual interests away from children

Rittenhouse stans are human garbage.

[unsunghero]

Rittenhouse stans are human garbage.

What the heck is a Rittenhouse stan

[Pulgasari]

It’s easy to spot “independent” fact checkers complete partisanship if you just read enough of them. The one that solidified it for me was a “fact check” about the statement that one of the people shot by Kyle Rittenhouse was a sex offender

The fact check (I forget if it was politico or snopes, one of those), basically took multiple paragraphs to say “well yes, he was convicted of a past crime of sexual assault of a minor” in a really roundabout way and then a full paragraph talking about past good deeds the person had done and then another paragraph saying that he didn’t deserve to die for being a sex offender

That was complete obvious bias. 1.) the statement was never about his past good deeds, no one gives a shit. It was whether or not he was a convicted sex offender and 2.) the statement was never about whether he deserved to die for being a sex offender, only whether he was one or not

The bias for the dead liberal was so fucking obvious in the fact check I wouldn’t be surprised if the staff that wrote it would have offered him a handjob if he were still alive to try to see if they could swing his sexual interests away from children

Want to survive COVID? Don’t be fat

Fox had some balls to run this article, because it goes against the conservative anti-vax narrative. You can’t tell the dude was fat as shit from the face pic, but the body shots you can see he was 300+

“ Dad sends heartbreaking text before death: ‘I should have gotten the damn vaccine’
https://www.foxnews.com/us/vaccine-dad-sends-heartbreaking-text-before-death

From one of the comments on the article:

“ My son is an MD in a hospital that has seen many, many covid patients. He told me just the other day, that the big warning, which was never given, because it just wasn't PC, is that every SINGLE patient he saw in his hospital was obese. That is the part nobody told you. It is heavily targeting obese people. They don't do well.”

The person who posted the comment is wrong. There as been tons of articles written mentioning that covid kills fat people at a rate of like 8-1 to healthy weight people. It should be common knowledge if you read the news

I see. You're willing to make peace on the sex offender angle, but the fats deserve to die.

Interesting thesis.

[unsunghero]

I see. You're willing to make peace on the sex offender angle, but fats deserve to die.

Interesting thesis.

It’s not a question of what they deserve. Being fat is a choice. The benefit is that junk food tastes amazing. I had periods of time where I would semi-crash off my clean earring and do a snickers bar from vending machine at work every day. That and brownies are my vices. Oh and have you ever had baklava from a Greek food place? Holy shit that’s good

And the downside is much higher risk of death from things like COVID. If the taste of junk food is worth it, then go for it. The news stations and I are just reinforcing the message that there is a serious con to obesity to balance out the pro that some food tastes amazing

[Pulgasari]

It’s not a question of what they deserve. Being fat is a choice. The benefit is that junk food tastes amazing. I had periods of time where I would semi-crash off my clean earring and do a snickers bar from vending machine at work every day. That and brownies are my vices. Oh and have you ever had baklava from a Greek food place? Holy shit that’s good

And the downside is much higher risk of death from things like COVID. If the taste of junk food is worth it, then go for it. The news stations and I are just reinforcing the message that there is a serious con to obesity to balance out the pro that some food tastes amazing

We shouldn't so easily excuse China killing our large American folks enjoying God's bounty.

[unsunghero]

We shouldn't so easily excuse China killing our large American folks enjoying God's bounty.

Fuckin China commie bastards

[Horza]

What the heck is a Rittenhouse stan

Stan has entered the lexicon as a term for an overly-obsessed fan of someone or something and is used colloquially to express fandom of all kinds. The origin of the term stan is often credited to the 2000 song "Stan," about an obsessed fan, by American rapper Eminem.

[Thorgrimm]

Rittenhouse stans are human garbage.

He took out some pedophile trash

Rittenhouse for Prez

[unsunghero]

Stan has entered the lexicon as a term for an overly-obsessed fan of someone or something and is used colloquially to express fandom of all kinds. The origin of the term stan is often credited to the 2000 song "Stan," about an obsessed fan, by American rapper Eminem.

I am not some fan of Rittenhouse. To my knowledge from hearing a little about his case, he had a couple people gearing up to beat the shit out of him or something. Apparently you would rather he lie down like a bitch crying and let it happen. I don’t fault him for defending himself. I personally wouldn’t tote an AK or whatever he had to do that, my glock would do just fine, but that I also don’t carry anywhere, ever really. Never even shot the damn thing. So Rittenhouse and I are not that alike, other than the fact I will also go down fighting

I’m assuming the issue people have with the situation is that he was engaging in vigilantism. Same sort of situation as Zimmerman, I suppose. There was also a case I heard about, although I don’t recall the name, of a man who would take walks late at night with his dog, armed, through the worst parts of town. He saw some young adults tagging a wall with spray paint, called them out and told them to stop. They tried to jump him, so he shot one. Was acquitted in self defense. So he kept taking his walks. Ended up shooting I think 2 other delinquents who attacked him, got off on self defense again. But now the judge could tell, this was someone engaging in vigilantism, acting like a cop when he was not a cop. He was tried for it and convicted if I recall. So it is a real crime. Maybe that will happen to Rittenhouse too

[unsunghero]

One thing I don’t deny is that fact that carrying a gun emboldens people to put themselves in dangerous situations. The famous quote is, “when you are carrying a hammer, everything looks like a nail”

[Thorgrimm]

One thing I don’t deny is that fact that carrying a gun emboldens people to put themselves in dangerous situations. The famous quote is, “when you are carrying a hammer, everything looks like a nail”

To protect themselves from dangerous situations

[unsunghero]

One reality of human civilization is that if the cops ever lose control, vigilantes will take over. I saw it play out in some parts of Mexico. There were poor towns with almost no police presence, and the police that were there were corrupt. So the gangs were taking over. There was some gang with “Templar” in their name, that was extorting all businesses and killing people left and right. So honest citizens formed armed militias and began engaging the gangs. Saw it on the news. It was proof that no matter what, there are always more good people than bad

[Jibartik]

Good people are the ones that got us into this mess in the first place.

[loramin]

To protect themselves from dangerous situations

This is so very P99 right here: we've got a mix of people living in reality, and people living in the fantasy in their head.

First, the fantasy:

A 2018 poll by NBC News and the Wall Street Journal found 58% of Americans agree with the statement “gun ownership does more to increase safety by allowing law-abiding citizens to protect themselves.”1

... and, the reality:

2014 review in the Annals of Internal Medicine concluded having a firearm in the home, even when it’s properly stored, doubles your risk of becoming a victim of homicide and triples the risk of suicide.3

But (I hear you say), who cares if someone in my family kills themself, or me? I'm magically 100% certain no one in my family will ever have a mental health issue, and guns protect me from bad guys! NRA-funded studies told me so:

The results, summarized in Table 5-2, suggest that respondents who use firearms are less likely to be injured and lose property than those using other modes of protection. For example, while the overall rate of injury in robbery is 30.2, only 12.8 percent of those using a firearm for self-protection were injured.

... except, that data is from self-reported studies. Why? Because the NRA got laws passed that made it difficult for neutral parties to conduct neutral studies, and then they paid for private studies that supported their view. But when you ask people to self-report, they're likely to have bias:

The most obvious and fundamental limitation, however, is that the data on defensive gun uses are, as described above, potentially error ridden ... if respondents, concerned about being perceived as inept, are inclined to report successful forms of resistance but conceal ineffective forms, the estimated efficacy of self-defense will be biased upward.


So to recap, there's fantasy-land, where you start by believing whatever you want to believe, and try to cherry-pick questionable data from a clearly-biased source to support that take:

https://i.imgur.com/csEcMrB.gif

... and then there's reality, where the simple truth is that if you have a gun in your home, you're far more likely to have it kill you or a family member than a "bad guy". Here's Jon Oliver talking about the reality of what happened when Australia got stricter gun control:

https://i.imgur.com/j27jZC1.gif
https://i.imgur.com/5ZaILDA.gif
https://i.imgur.com/rJeFzqb.gif
https://i.imgur.com/ZqbHyVa.gif
https://i.imgur.com/yoG37rM.gif
https://i.imgur.com/zEjZF3R.gif
https://i.imgur.com/ittYJF2.gif

[HalflingSpergand]

Your fantasy is that its just that simple. If only people qould see things just like your everything will be great.
And your probably right, if everyone believed the same fantasy it would be smooth sailing .
That won't ever happen

[Pulgasari]

Lincoln made men free but Colt made them equal :)

[Thorgrimm]

This is so very P99 right here: we've got a mix of people living in reality, and people living in the fantasy in their head.

First, the fantasy:



... and, the reality:



But (I hear you say), who cares if someone in my family kills themself, or me? I'm magically 100% certain no one in my family will ever have a mental health issue, and guns protect me from bad guys! NRA-funded studies told me so:



... except, that data is from self-reported studies. Why? Because the NRA got laws passed that made it difficult for neutral parties to conduct neutral studies, and then they paid for private studies that supported their view. But when you ask people to self-report, they're likely to have bias:



So to recap, there's fantasy-land, where you start by believing whatever you want to believe, and try to cherry-pick questionable data from a clearly-biased source to support that take:

https://i.imgur.com/csEcMrB.gif

... and then there's reality, where the simple truth is that if you have a gun in your home, you're far more likely to have it kill you or a family member than a "bad guy". Here's Jon Oliver talking about the reality of what happened when Australia got stricter gun control:

https://i.imgur.com/j27jZC1.gif
https://i.imgur.com/5ZaILDA.gif
https://i.imgur.com/rJeFzqb.gif
https://i.imgur.com/ZqbHyVa.gif
https://i.imgur.com/yoG37rM.gif
https://i.imgur.com/zEjZF3R.gif
https://i.imgur.com/ittYJF2.gif

Triggered (No Pun Intended)

[starkind]

yall remember that sherif who (ex sherif) who busted a cap in that guy for throwing popcorn on him (the guy was rude af tho)

(he was from florida)

did he get leathal or go to an old home? with shuffle boards?

that theatre in weslay chapels

[unsunghero]

But (I hear you say), who cares if someone in my family kills themself, or me? I'm magically 100% certain no one in my family will ever have a mental health issue, and guns protect me from bad guys! NRA-funded studies told me so:


Very good points sir

But you are discounting people's own autonomy and ability to care for one's mental health just like we care for medical

The reality is that there is a process, a buildup, leading to most suicide attempts. I work in behavioral health these past 14 years so I know quite a bit about them. First, there is a crisis, which is just defined as a level of life stress exceeding one's ability to cope. This causes what we call mental decompensation, which is when someone's mental state continues to worsen. Negative thought patterns develop, then someone's physical functioning is affected, such as their eating and sleep patterns, their energy level, their ability to care for hygiene, and they typically begin to isolate

The safety element typically begins with what we refer to as a deathwish, which is the thought that "I wish I would fall asleep and not wake up", or "I wish something would happen to take me out" but the person doesn't yet want to kill themselves. Then if they continue to decompensate, the thoughts shifts into thinking about how they could kill themselves. From there, the planning stages begin, and the end of life preparation begins, such as writing a suicide note, giving away one's possessions, some people start donating all their money, etc

There is no guarantee that this is the same process for everyone, some suicide attempts are more spontaneous, typically those are often influenced by drugs or alcohol

But for the majority of attempts, it is indeed a process, and along the way, the person has two things going for them: 1.) A basic human survival instinct. For example, the human jaw has enough strength to bite off your own finger right now. But you won't do it, because you have a survival instinct telling you not to. and 2.) What we call "motivations for living", which is most often the effect the suicide would have on family members, one's own personal goals, or their religion

Anywhere along this process, a person who recognizes they are decompensating mentally has the autonomy to be proactive and give up access to their firearm. This happens ALL the time in my job. People either do it themselves most often, or else they get professional help who strongly recommends they do it. EVEN IF, the person has zero supports in life, there's no one they can give it to, they can still contact police and request police take the firearm from them and give them a ticket, which they can later use to request it back

There are probably more people who recognize they are becoming suicidal, but are early on in this process I outlined, who give up their firearm temporarily, than ones that complete suicide with it. The reason it doesn't seem that way is because you aren't going to hear about the ones who give up their firearm and seek professional help, because that isn't news-worthy. Only the deaths are news-worthy

So TLDR: yes firearms are a risk. But most people don't just flip into a "I'm going to attempt suicide right now" like you or I would flip a lightswitch. It's a process, and along the way, people can and do become proactive and give up their firearms to their supports

[Botten]

So TLDR: yes firearms are a risk. But most people don't just flip into a "I'm going to attempt suicide right now" like you or I would flip a lightswitch. It's a process, and along the way, people can and do become proactive and give up their firearms to their supports

Mental health is just as bad as it has ever been the only difference is people have more access to weapons like AR-15s than say a Tommy Gun (price at $200 or equivalent to $3,500 in modern day).

And it isn't just violence in the home it could be at the grocery store, the club, church or work.

Mass shootings are way too prevalent:

Examples - Location in US - Date - Fatalities
Las Vegas Strip massacre - 10/1/2017 - 58
Orlando nightclub massacre - 6/12/2016 - 49
Virginia Tech massacre - 4/16/2007 - 32
Sandy Hook Elementary massacre - 12/14/2012 - 27
Texas First Baptist Church massacre - 11/5/2017 - 26
Luby's massacre - 10/16/1991 - 24
El Paso Walmart mass shooting - 8/3/2019 - 22
San Ysidro McDonald's massacre - 7/18/1984 - 22
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting - 2/14/2018 - 17
United States Postal Service shooting - 8/20/1986 - 15
San Bernardino mass shooting - 12/2/2015 - 14
Binghamton shootings - 4/3/2009 - 14
Fort Hood massacre - 11/5/2009 - 13
Columbine High School massacre - 4/20/1999 - 13
Virginia Beach municipal building shooting - 5/31/2019 - 12
Thousand Oaks nightclub shooting - 11/7/2018 - 12
Washington Navy Yard shooting - 9/16/2013 - 12
Aurora theater shooting - 7/20/2012 - 12
Tree of Life synagogue shooting - 10/27/2018 - 11
Boulder supermarket shooting - 3/22/2021 - 10
Santa Fe High School shooting - 5/18/2018 - 10
Red Lake massacre - 3/21/2005 - 10
GMAC massacre - 6/18/1990 - 10
San Jose VTA shooting - 5/26/2021 - 9
Dayton entertainment district shooting - 8/4/2019 - 9
Umpqua Community College shooting - 10/1/2015 - 9
Charleston Church Shooting - 6/17/2015 - 9
Hartford Beer Distributor shooting - 8/3/2010 - 9
Westroads Mall shooting - 12/5/2007 - 9
Atlanta day trading spree killings - 7/29/1999 - 9
101 California Street shootings - 7/1/1993 - 9
Standard Gravure shooting - 9/14/1989 - 9
FedEx warehouse shooting - 4/15/2021 - 8
Atlanta massage parlor shootings - 3/16/2021 - 8
Seal Beach shooting - 10/12/2011 - 8
Carthage nursing home shooting - 3/29/2009 - 8
Goleta postal shootings - 1/30/2006 - 8
Wedgwood Baptist Church shooting - 9/15/1999 - 8


The United States has had the most mass shootings of any country. In one 2017 study published in Time magazine by criminologist Adam Lankford, it was estimated that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world's population. The study concludes that “The United States and other nations with high firearm ownership rates may be particularly susceptible to future public mass shootings, even if they are relatively peaceful or mentally healthy according to other national indicators.”

And tho Adam Lankford's analyst was scrutinized he later revised his statement above with more research clarifying that although the United States is not significantly more likely than most other countries to have mass shootings that are committed by more than one person, such as the university massacre in Kenya, the United States from 1998-2012 did in fact have more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone. Using the data from Lott and Moody's 2019 study of mass shootings, Lankford explains that "41 of all 138 public mass shootings by single perpetrators worldwide were committed in the United States. That represents 29.7%. Because America had in those years approximately 4.5% of the world's population (according to Lott and Moody's calculations), this indicates that based on their own data, the United States had more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone (29.7/4.5 = 6.6).

Mass shootings have also been observed to be followed by an increase in the purchase of weapons, but does not seem to create an increased feeling of needing guns in either gun owners or non-owners.

It is crazy we can't sue gun companies.
But it looks like that if finally changing.

And who would of thought of all places, Mexico is suing the US gun companies.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/mexico-sues-major-gun-makers-in-u-s-court-11628108966

[Thorgrimm]

Mental health is just as bad as it has ever been the only difference is people have more access to weapons like AR-15s than say a Tommy Gun (price at $200 or equivalent to $3,500 in modern day).

And it isn't just violence in the home it could be at the grocery store, the club, church or work.

Mass shootings are way too prevalent:

Examples - Location in US - Date - Fatalities
Las Vegas Strip massacre - 10/1/2017 - 58
Orlando nightclub massacre - 6/12/2016 - 49
Virginia Tech massacre - 4/16/2007 - 32
Sandy Hook Elementary massacre - 12/14/2012 - 27
Texas First Baptist Church massacre - 11/5/2017 - 26
Luby's massacre - 10/16/1991 - 24
El Paso Walmart mass shooting - 8/3/2019 - 22
San Ysidro McDonald's massacre - 7/18/1984 - 22
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting - 2/14/2018 - 17
United States Postal Service shooting - 8/20/1986 - 15
San Bernardino mass shooting - 12/2/2015 - 14
Binghamton shootings - 4/3/2009 - 14
Fort Hood massacre - 11/5/2009 - 13
Columbine High School massacre - 4/20/1999 - 13
Virginia Beach municipal building shooting - 5/31/2019 - 12
Thousand Oaks nightclub shooting - 11/7/2018 - 12
Washington Navy Yard shooting - 9/16/2013 - 12
Aurora theater shooting - 7/20/2012 - 12
Tree of Life synagogue shooting - 10/27/2018 - 11
Boulder supermarket shooting - 3/22/2021 - 10
Santa Fe High School shooting - 5/18/2018 - 10
Red Lake massacre - 3/21/2005 - 10
GMAC massacre - 6/18/1990 - 10
San Jose VTA shooting - 5/26/2021 - 9
Dayton entertainment district shooting - 8/4/2019 - 9
Umpqua Community College shooting - 10/1/2015 - 9
Charleston Church Shooting - 6/17/2015 - 9
Hartford Beer Distributor shooting - 8/3/2010 - 9
Westroads Mall shooting - 12/5/2007 - 9
Atlanta day trading spree killings - 7/29/1999 - 9
101 California Street shootings - 7/1/1993 - 9
Standard Gravure shooting - 9/14/1989 - 9
FedEx warehouse shooting - 4/15/2021 - 8
Atlanta massage parlor shootings - 3/16/2021 - 8
Seal Beach shooting - 10/12/2011 - 8
Carthage nursing home shooting - 3/29/2009 - 8
Goleta postal shootings - 1/30/2006 - 8
Wedgwood Baptist Church shooting - 9/15/1999 - 8


The United States has had the most mass shootings of any country. In one 2017 study published in Time magazine by criminologist Adam Lankford, it was estimated that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world's population. The study concludes that “The United States and other nations with high firearm ownership rates may be particularly susceptible to future public mass shootings, even if they are relatively peaceful or mentally healthy according to other national indicators.”

And tho Adam Lankford's analyst was scrutinized he later revised his statement above with more research clarifying that although the United States is not significantly more likely than most other countries to have mass shootings that are committed by more than one person, such as the university massacre in Kenya, the United States from 1998-2012 did in fact have more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone. Using the data from Lott and Moody's 2019 study of mass shootings, Lankford explains that "41 of all 138 public mass shootings by single perpetrators worldwide were committed in the United States. That represents 29.7%. Because America had in those years approximately 4.5% of the world's population (according to Lott and Moody's calculations), this indicates that based on their own data, the United States had more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone (29.7/4.5 = 6.6).

Mass shootings have also been observed to be followed by an increase in the purchase of weapons, but does not seem to create an increased feeling of needing guns in either gun owners or non-owners.

It is crazy we can't sue gun companies.
But it looks like that if finally changing.

And who would of thought of all places, Mexico is suing the US gun companies.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/mexico-sues-major-gun-makers-in-u-s-court-11628108966

Just because you saw them on TV doesn't mean any of those were real

Propaganda is a helluva drug

[Nirgon]

This whole phenomena of willfully risking death unnecessarily is just so incredible to me. I mean, I get it: people invest their identity in Trump and QAnon, which means they have to accept Trump/QAnon beliefs or else question their identity (something we humans hate doing: we're extremely tribal creatures). That "stick to your beliefs/tribe's beliefs" force is literally stronger than our natural self-preservation force.

But even though I understand it on some level, it just feels like the bad punchline to a Simpsons joke or something. In 20 years from now, people just won't even understand how millions of Americans willfully chose to get Covid and die; it won't make any sense at all to them out of context.

LOL I'm not vaxxed or dead. This shit is blown out of proportion. The flu kills people too. Woopdiedoo.

Where was the quarantine and mandatory compliance against something actually dangerous to everyone like AIDS? Why couldn't we isolate that one and "beat it together"? It doesn't help that the pushing of it is coming from the most nefarious and biggest caught liars in recent history.

Don't get the stupid shot unless you're seriously immuno compromised, super fat, old or have some other serious health issue requiring the risk of "the jab".

[unsunghero]

Mental health is just as bad as it has ever been the only difference is people have more access to weapons like AR-15s than say a Tommy Gun (price at $200 or equivalent to $3,500 in modern day).

And it isn't just violence in the home it could be at the grocery store, the club, church or work.

Mass shootings are way too prevalent:

Examples - Location in US - Date - Fatalities
Las Vegas Strip massacre - 10/1/2017 - 58
Orlando nightclub massacre - 6/12/2016 - 49
Virginia Tech massacre - 4/16/2007 - 32
Sandy Hook Elementary massacre - 12/14/2012 - 27
Texas First Baptist Church massacre - 11/5/2017 - 26
Luby's massacre - 10/16/1991 - 24
El Paso Walmart mass shooting - 8/3/2019 - 22
San Ysidro McDonald's massacre - 7/18/1984 - 22
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting - 2/14/2018 - 17
United States Postal Service shooting - 8/20/1986 - 15
San Bernardino mass shooting - 12/2/2015 - 14
Binghamton shootings - 4/3/2009 - 14
Fort Hood massacre - 11/5/2009 - 13
Columbine High School massacre - 4/20/1999 - 13
Virginia Beach municipal building shooting - 5/31/2019 - 12
Thousand Oaks nightclub shooting - 11/7/2018 - 12
Washington Navy Yard shooting - 9/16/2013 - 12
Aurora theater shooting - 7/20/2012 - 12
Tree of Life synagogue shooting - 10/27/2018 - 11
Boulder supermarket shooting - 3/22/2021 - 10
Santa Fe High School shooting - 5/18/2018 - 10
Red Lake massacre - 3/21/2005 - 10
GMAC massacre - 6/18/1990 - 10
San Jose VTA shooting - 5/26/2021 - 9
Dayton entertainment district shooting - 8/4/2019 - 9
Umpqua Community College shooting - 10/1/2015 - 9
Charleston Church Shooting - 6/17/2015 - 9
Hartford Beer Distributor shooting - 8/3/2010 - 9
Westroads Mall shooting - 12/5/2007 - 9
Atlanta day trading spree killings - 7/29/1999 - 9
101 California Street shootings - 7/1/1993 - 9
Standard Gravure shooting - 9/14/1989 - 9
FedEx warehouse shooting - 4/15/2021 - 8
Atlanta massage parlor shootings - 3/16/2021 - 8
Seal Beach shooting - 10/12/2011 - 8
Carthage nursing home shooting - 3/29/2009 - 8
Goleta postal shootings - 1/30/2006 - 8
Wedgwood Baptist Church shooting - 9/15/1999 - 8


The United States has had the most mass shootings of any country. In one 2017 study published in Time magazine by criminologist Adam Lankford, it was estimated that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world's population. The study concludes that “The United States and other nations with high firearm ownership rates may be particularly susceptible to future public mass shootings, even if they are relatively peaceful or mentally healthy according to other national indicators.”

And tho Adam Lankford's analyst was scrutinized he later revised his statement above with more research clarifying that although the United States is not significantly more likely than most other countries to have mass shootings that are committed by more than one person, such as the university massacre in Kenya, the United States from 1998-2012 did in fact have more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone. Using the data from Lott and Moody's 2019 study of mass shootings, Lankford explains that "41 of all 138 public mass shootings by single perpetrators worldwide were committed in the United States. That represents 29.7%. Because America had in those years approximately 4.5% of the world's population (according to Lott and Moody's calculations), this indicates that based on their own data, the United States had more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone (29.7/4.5 = 6.6).

Mass shootings have also been observed to be followed by an increase in the purchase of weapons, but does not seem to create an increased feeling of needing guns in either gun owners or non-owners.

It is crazy we can't sue gun companies.
But it looks like that if finally changing.

And who would of thought of all places, Mexico is suing the US gun companies.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/mexico-sues-major-gun-makers-in-u-s-court-11628108966

Lol do you realize your chance of dying in a mass shooting is less than being struck by lightning?

Do you understand the humongous statistical difference between the number of people killed in single-person murders versus the number of people killed in mass shootings? Do you know how different those two numbers are?

Mass shootings look horrible. And the USA has a lot. That doesn't make them even fucking CLOSE to as much of a risk as suicide or single-person murders. It's not even in the ballpark, it's not even the same fucking sport

[HalflingSpergand]

Damn guns

[Mesocyclone]

need a huge wall to border washington DC from the United States of America

[cd288]

This whole phenomena of willfully risking death unnecessarily is just so incredible to me. I mean, I get it: people invest their identity in Trump and QAnon, which means they have to accept Trump/QAnon beliefs or else question their identity (something we humans hate doing: we're extremely tribal creatures). That "stick to your beliefs/tribe's beliefs" force is literally stronger than our natural self-preservation force.

But even though I understand it on some level, it just feels like the bad punchline to a Simpsons joke or something. In 20 years from now, people just won't even understand how millions of Americans willfully chose to get Covid and die; it won't make any sense at all to them out of context.

It's so odd to me that vaccines have become an issue of political affiliation. Like it really is such a weird thing to have as part of a party's platform. People will really work hard to turn every single little thing into a political issue these days.

[Nirgon]

It's so odd to me that vaccines have become an issue of political affiliation. Like it really is such a weird thing to have as part of a party's platform. People will really work hard to turn every single little thing into a political issue these days.

There's nothing weird about it. They want to own you like human cattle. They put a rainbow drape over it, and you guys fall for it.

[cd288]

There's nothing weird about it. They want to own you like human cattle. They put a rainbow drape over it, and you guys fall for it.

I vote republican most of the time.

It's weird because it's a simple health measure. It has nothing to do with control lol; you're speaking like a crazy person.

Also, pretty much everyone has received all kinds of vaccines in their life which have quite possibly saved them from severe medical issues at various points in time. Don't hear you complaining about the fact that you're probably vaccinated against things like polio, mumps, have a tetanus shot, etc.

[Nirgon]

Those things work. This clearly doesn't and you're suggesting forcing it? When it has definitely killed people?

This virus is a joke unless you're in a severe health category like being obese.

Quarantine obese and otherwise at risk people. Good idea. Experimental shot which has a chance of killing? That doesn't work? Hell no.

[cd288]

Those things work. This clearly doesn't and you're suggesting forcing it? When it has definitely killed people?

This virus is a joke unless you're in a severe health category like being obese.

Quarantine obese and otherwise at risk people. Good idea. Experimental shot which has a chance of killing? That doesn't work? Hell no.

You realize the technology has been around for decades right? We've just never had a reason to need to use it. It was tested on the same amount of people as any other vaccine would be prior to its circulation. Also, the J&J vaccine doesn't us mRNA to my knowledge and is more in line with your "standard" type of vaccine that people have been used to (although I don't know a lot of details about J&J).

The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines aren't causing adverse reactions any more than other vaccines might. You realize you could quite literally have an adverse and possibly deadly reaction to any medication you take right? Does that stop you from going to the pharmacy and buying something, or taking medicine prescribed by your doctor? The whole "vaccine could cause me to have an adverse reaction" argument only holds up if you literally refuse to take any type of medicine ever.

I know multiple people in their 20s and 30s who died of COVID. Completely healthy (one was a triathlete) and with no pre-existing conditions. Initial data from Delta is showing that it can kill completely healthy people not infrequently; we could be looking at a much more deadly strain than we dealt with in 2020. And things only get worse if enough people don't get vaccinated because what that means is the more the virus transmits the more opportunity it has to develop into an even deadlier strain that even you would find dangerous...so we can either try and stop it now or everyone can decide to finally wake up several months from now when we have a strain of the virus that's killing over 10% of the people it infects with no regard to whether they were healthy or not before.

[Toxigen]

still not getting the jab

[Nirgon]

still not getting the jab

Unless you are very seriously (fat/old/immuno compromised) at risk, dont do it.

[Horza]

You're talking to a brick wall made of fringe right conspiracy theories only retarded people can take seriously.

[loramin]

You're talking to a brick wall made of fringe right conspiracy theories only retarded people can take seriously.

Seriously. I'll talk "across the aisle" all day to people who hold different beliefs than me, but when someone says something as monumentally disconnected from reality as:

Those things work. This clearly doesn't and you're suggesting forcing it? When it has definitely killed people?

This virus is a joke unless you're in a severe health category like being obese.

It just makes it clear there's no point in talking: you're trying to reason with someone who doesn't live in reality. At that point it's not about party or political differences ... or logic, or reason ... it's a religious debate.

Nirgon's religion is QAnon, and nothing anyone here can ever say will make him change his affiliation.

[cd288]

Seriously. I'll talk "across the aisle" all day to people who hold different beliefs than me, but when someone says something as monumentally disconnected from reality as:



It just makes it clear there's no point in talking: you're trying to reason with someone who doesn't live in reality. At that point it's not about party or political differences ... or logic, or reason ... it's a religious debate.

Nirgon's religion is QAnon, and nothing anyone here can ever say will make him change his affiliation.

Yeah I mean this whole like political conspiracy theory stuff around the vaccine also makes no sense. Like if anything wouldn't the left NOT want the people on the right to get vaccinated? The more people on the right who don't get vaccinated and die of COVID the less voters there are on the right.

[Danth]

Yeah I mean this whole like political conspiracy theory stuff around the vaccine also makes no sense.

A lot of it doesn't, I agree.

I don't need a political conspiracy to look at what's going on and decide that I don't particularly need the shot right now. Maybe I'll change my mind later on, but I regard that as my choice to make, not Uncle Sam's. It's a near thing and the wife and I just about got the shot in March except it was shut down that day due to some snafu. I'm at elevated risk (clotting for one) of adverse reaction so some hesitation is not unwarranted. The wife has dramatically higher odds of reaction due to her own health issues to the point where her own doctor suggested she might not want to get it at all. Even then the risk is relatively minor--but the risk of death from covid is also minor. On the other hand, if folks try to force the issue, I'll fight on that principle alone. I consider that a worthy cause to fight for. I regard it as the duty of a good citizen to resist government over-reach in all its forms. This entire situation has reeked of overreach from the start.

Given the very clear over-reporting of death rate there's obviously a political angle at work with respect to this subject as well, but I can't even begin to claim to know the purpose. I don't easily adopt conspiracy theories, especially not on a global scale. Rather than some conspiracy an alternate scenario is over-reaction from governments (most of whom are run by old folks in their 60's and 70's and who hence have every right to be scared) coupled with lots of bribery from the drug producers. That's one option of many.

Danth

[Evia]

On the other hand, if folks try to force the issue, I'll fight on that principle alone. I consider that a worthy cause to fight for. I regard it as the duty of a good citizen to resist government over-reach in all its forms. This entire situation has reeked of overreach from the start.

Danth

Major respect for people like you, Danth.

[Horza]

A lot of it doesn't, I agree.

I don't need a political conspiracy to look at what's going on and decide that I don't particularly need the shot right now. Maybe I'll change my mind later on, but I regard that as my choice to make, not Uncle Sam's. It's a near thing and the wife and I just about got the shot in March except it was shut down that day due to some snafu. I'm at elevated risk (clotting for one) of adverse reaction so some hesitation is not unwarranted. The wife has dramatically higher odds of reaction due to her own health issues to the point where her own doctor suggested she might not want to get it at all. Even then the risk is relatively minor--but the risk of death from covid is also minor. On the other hand, if folks try to force the issue, I'll fight on that principle alone. I consider that a worthy cause to fight for. I regard it as the duty of a good citizen to resist government over-reach in all its forms. This entire situation has reeked of overreach from the start.

Given the very clear over-reporting of death rate there's obviously a political angle at work with respect to this subject as well, but I can't even begin to claim to know the purpose. I don't easily adopt conspiracy theories, especially not on a global scale. Rather than some conspiracy an alternate scenario is over-reaction from governments (most of whom are run by old folks in their 60's and 70's and who hence have every right to be scared) coupled with lots of bribery from the drug producers. That's one option of many.

Danth

What over reporting of the death rate are you referring to specifically, Mr. antivax conspiracy theorist?

[loramin]

A lot of it doesn't, I agree.

I don't need a political conspiracy to look at what's going on and decide that I don't particularly need the shot right now. Maybe I'll change my mind later on, but I regard that as my choice to make, not Uncle Sam's. It's a near thing and the wife and I just about got the shot in March except it was shut down that day due to some snafu. I'm at elevated risk (clotting for one) of adverse reaction so some hesitation is not unwarranted. The wife has dramatically higher odds of reaction due to her own health issues to the point where her own doctor suggested she might not want to get it at all. Even then the risk is relatively minor--but the risk of death from covid is also minor. On the other hand, if folks try to force the issue, I'll fight on that principle alone. I consider that a worthy cause to fight for. I regard it as the duty of a good citizen to resist government over-reach in all its forms. This entire situation has reeked of overreach from the start.

Given the very clear over-reporting of death rate there's obviously a political angle at work with respect to this subject as well, but I can't even begin to claim to know the purpose. I don't easily adopt conspiracy theories, especially not on a global scale. Rather than some conspiracy an alternate scenario is over-reaction from governments (most of whom are run by old folks in their 60's and 70's and who hence have every right to be scared) coupled with lots of bribery from the drug producers. That's one option of many.

Danth

Hypothetically Danth, could you see how some sort of spreadable disease might make it so vaccinations aren't just about personal choice? In other words, could you imagine how one person's "personal choice" might result in someone else's death (say, because they spread the illness to someone with a weaker immune system)?

And if so, does that bother you at all, or are you just like "fuck other people: morals are about what's right for me"?

(Genuine question, not a judgment: it could still be a principled opinion if you, like some Libertarians for instance, believe on principle that we should only care about what's good for individuals.)

[Gatordash]

Hypothetically Danth, could you see how some sort of spreadable disease might make it so vaccinations aren't just about personal choice? In other words, could you imagine how one person's "personal choice" might result in someone else's death (say, because they spread the illness to someone with a weaker immune system)?

And if so, does that bother you at all, or are you just like "fuck other people: morals are about what's right for me"?

(Genuine question, not a judgment: it could still be a principled opinion if you, like some Libertarians for instance, believe on principle that we should only care about what's good for individuals.)

I wonder if there is a correlation between those who are organ donors and those who got the vaccine, and those who aren't organ donors and those who refuse the vaccine.

[Jibartik]

I wonder if there is a correlation between those who are organ donors and those who got the vaccine, and those who aren't organ donors and those who refuse the vaccine.

People who attend church regularly tend to donate more money to any type of cause. ... Their average donation is $2,224, while their total annual charitable giving is about $2,935. Americans who never attend religious services give less, with 50% giving to secular causes, and 12% donating to religious causes.

https://balancingeverything.com/church-giving-statistics/#:~:text=People%20who%20attend%20church%20regularl y,to%20any%20type%20of%20cause.&text=Their%20average%20donation%20is%20%242%2C224, 12%25%20donating%20to%20religious%20causes.

[Horza]

People who attend church regularly tend to donate more money to any type of cause. ... Their average donation is $2,224, while their total annual charitable giving is about $2,935. Americans who never attend religious services give less, with 50% giving to secular causes, and 12% donating to religious causes.

https://balancingeverything.com/church-giving-statistics/#:~:text=People%20who%20attend%20church%20regularl y,to%20any%20type%20of%20cause.&text=Their%20average%20donation%20is%20%242%2C224, 12%25%20donating%20to%20religious%20causes.

Tithes don't help anyone except the pedophiles who run every major Christian denomination.

[Jibartik]

Tithes don't help anyone except the pedophiles who run every major Christian denomination.

this is the exact sentiment of a republican who thinks taxes dont help

both



SIDES

[Evia]

Hypothetically Danth, could you see how some sort of spreadable disease might make it so vaccinations aren't just about personal choice? In other words, could you imagine how one person's "personal choice" might result in someone else's death (say, because they spread the illness to someone with a weaker immune system)?

And if so, does that bother you at all, or are you just like "fuck other people: morals are about what's right for me"?

(Genuine question, not a judgment: it could still be a principled opinion if you, like some Libertarians for instance, believe on principle that we should only care about what's good for individuals.)


The thing is you’re expecting other people to subscribe to your medical beliefs. That’s the core issue. While you see vaccines as life saving and excellent preventative medicine, I see it as poison and a violation of everything I believe in. I don’t understand why you cannot take your own medicine to protect you, you need me to take it too. That’s my disconnect. By all means take whatever you want to protect you from the world, but expecting your neighbor to take your medicine too because your medicine doesn’t work unless I take it as well is completely ridiculous.

[Danth]

Genuine question, not a judgment

It might be a personal choice, but it's a collective right. From a philosophical perspective liberty is a very inefficient thing. How often do we see this same argument come up with, say, firearms? Gun ownership means people die who don't need to. Or take abortion, the very act of which demands human death--yet another area where liberty and safety/efficiency are at odds. Covid in the here-and-now is larger than either of those, even controlling for some over-reporting, but the issue is fundamentally the same. I accept elevated risk because I'd rather take my chances with Covid than take my chances with having liberty further whittled away. One of those things will pass in due time--even if it takes me with it--the other has a habit of becoming permanent. So I resist now so we still have our rights in the future. Don't start with "now's a bad time." It's always going to be a bad time. Seldom to never do governments whittle away rights without some sort of crisis or emergency justification. So I resist, and if it means I croak from covid, or some others who might not otherwise, then so be it. That, too, is the cost of maintaining liberty.

I don't oppose the shot in and of itself, and if the government wasn't resorting to measures I consider unacceptable (like suspending HIPAA) I'd have got it myself already, as noted above. It works both ways. You might disagree with me, but I'm no hypocrite. I've never been angry with people who didn't vaccinate against diptheria or polio or chicken pox. It's their right. Should they give me something (unlikely as it is), it's still their right. If your own body isn't your own, then what is? I've never complained about getting the flu from someone who didn't get a flu shot. I don't like it, but I like the thought of living in a totalitarian environment a whole lot less.

One grey area involves addictive drugs since they affect a person's culpability for his own actions, but this is obviously not such a case.

Danth

[loramin]

The thing is you’re expecting other people to subscribe to your medical beliefs. That’s the core issue. While you see vaccines as life saving and excellent preventative medicine, I see it as poison and a violation of everything I believe in. I don’t understand why you cannot take your own medicine to protect you, you need me to take it too. That’s my disconnect. By all means take whatever you want to protect you from the world, but expecting your neighbor to take your medicine too because your medicine doesn’t work unless I take it as well is completely ridiculous.

Look, if "vaccines are evil" is your religion, there's just no point in us talking about them. Same goes for any other aspect of medicine: if you believe gayness can be cured through prayer, I'm not going to convince you otherwise by showing you stats on how prayer doesn't change sexuality. I'll stick to conversing with people who do care about objective measurements of reality, the scientific method, etc.

However, I don't mean that like "you're an asshole who I don't want to talk to"! I simply mean it's a pointless activity for both of us, because nothing I or anyone else can say will make you change that faith.

It's like trying to logic someone into believing Jesus never existed: it can't be done ... because people don't believe in Jesus based on logic, they believe based on faith.

Similarly here your belief that vaccines are "poison" isn't rooted in the scientific method or anything else objective: it's part of your identity, your "tribe". Since I don't share that faith, that identity, trying to talk to each other will just mean talking past each other.. But just because we have "religious differences" on this matter doesn't mean I think you're a lesser person or someone I don't want to talk about elf sims with or anything :)

[Evia]

Look, if "vaccines are evil" is your religion, there's just no point in us talking.

I don't mean that like "you're an asshole who I don't want to talk to" though! I simply mean it's a pointless activity, because nothing I or anyone else can say will make you change that faith.

It's like trying to logic someone into believing Jesus never existed: it can't be done ... because people don't believe in Jesus based on logic, they believe based on faith.

Loramin! I've always found you to be a level headed individual, One of the few we have here tbh lol.

I never said "vaccines are evil is my religion" I said "I see it as poison and a violation of everything I believe in" -- you never bothered to engage me in the discussion you have already seemed to make your mind up.

I believe GOD made me complete and whole. He didn't forget a vaccine that now I need to be sure to take. That's my religious belief, sure, but it doesn't mean I think they're evil. You obviously believe in them strongly and I think you should have that right without me preaching to you about my views. I think a lot of the ingredients in vaccines are also harmful to the body. I understand the science theory that is used I just don't agree with it. I don't know why that means we can't still be friends and have different views in health and how we care for ourselves. Just like its bullshit for Christians or religions to shove their views down others throats, I don't think its right that the pro vaccine community needs to shove their views down mine.

[loramin]

Loramin! I've always found you to be a level headed individual, One of the few we have here tbh lol.

I never said "vaccines are evil is my religion" I said "I see it as poison and a violation of everything I believe in" -- you never bothered to engage me in the discussion you have already seemed to make your mind up.

I believe GOD made me complete and whole. He didn't forget a vaccine that now I need to be sure to take. That's my religious belief, sure, but it doesn't mean I think they're evil. You obviously believe in them strongly and I think you should have that right without me preaching to you about my views. I think a lot of the ingredients in vaccines are also harmful to the body. I understand the science theory that is used I just don't agree with it. I don't know why that means we can't still be friends and have different views in health and how we care for ourselves. Just like its bullshit for Christians or religions to shove their views down others throats, I don't think its right that the pro vaccine community needs to shove their views down mine.

The moment you used the phrase "medical beliefs" I knew we could only talk past each other. People who make decisions on logic, the scientific method, and other things that I believe in would never suggest that something objective (eg. how many people are dying of a disease) is a question of belief.

That one phrase did say "this is a religious issue for me", whether you meant to or not, because you literally said it's a question of belief, not facts.

[Jibartik]

"medical beliefs"

https://youtu.be/2NeQDjdkWu4?t=683

[Evia]

The moment you used the phrase "medical beliefs" I knew we could only talk past each other. People who make decisions on logic, the scientific method, and other things that I believe in would never suggest that something objective (eg. how many people are dying of a disease) is a question of belief.

That one phrase did say "this is a religious issue for me", whether you meant to or not, because you literally said it's a question of belief, not facts.

See you keep saying "facts" but the truth is you really don't know for sure either. Unless you are literally the one doing all the fact checking the information you are receiving and believing could be wrong. Science is always evolving and changing as new info and facts are presented. That's not to say there aren't facts there, it's possible, but to deny the possibility of it being wrong or inaccurate is a different form of blind faith not entirely different from my own. That's why I think pushing views or beliefs, no matter how validated or right you feel you are, is wrong. That's the only REAL TRUTH.

[Synphul]

In other words, could you imagine how one person's "personal choice" might result in someone else's death (say, because they spread the illness to someone with a weaker immune system)?

I'm not sure what reality you live in, but this is pretty much how the world works. Murder, accidental traffic deaths, flu deaths, COVID deaths, etc... they all have an element of 'personal choice' behind them if we're looking at them through your optics. Do you constantly worry about being asymptomatic with the flu and giving it to some immunocomprimised individual leading to their death? Just because you got the flu shot this year doesn't stop it as we all know. Why haven't you been wearing masks your whole life during flu season or avoiding old people at all costs? How many people have you killed with your reckless disregard, Loramin?!!

How can you be such a pro-vaxxer when vaccinated people are still spreading it per the CDC? There's also no science that tells us the variants come solely from unvaccinated individuals, so the blame game is juvenile. Non-mainstream science has been telling us from the beginning that we will be dealing with variants for decades like most viruses, but the media/politicians can't miss an opportunity to spout that next sensational headline. Viruses are tough cookies to crack, and we're not very good at it yet.

There's a difference being wanting to go about your normal life vs. trying to actively spread a disease and kill people. It's called intent and it matters. Stop trying to equate the two.

[loramin]

See you keep saying "facts" but the truth is you really don't know for sure either. Unless you are literally the one doing all the fact checking the information you are receiving and believing could be wrong. Science is always evolving and changing as new info and facts are presented. That's not to say there aren't facts there, it's possible, but to deny the possibility of it being wrong or inaccurate is a different form of faith not entirely different from my own. That's why I think pushing views or beliefs, no matter how validated or right you feel you are, is wrong. That's the only REAL TRUTH.

Thought experiment time: do you believe in cancer? Have you studied it? Do you understand how mutations in DNA develop, or how those mutations result in tumors, or what hereditary factors cause one person to have a greater chance of getting it? And regardless ... do you need to know any of that to believe in it?

Ok, now same question for trichotillomania (a random rare disease I pulled out of my hat that you probably haven't heard of; it makes people pull their hair out): do you believe in it? Even though you (probably) have never had it? You've probably never even have known someone who did. so from your perspective it must just seem like something doctors have "made up"; believing it exists is an article of faith (faith in our medical experts).

Now, same question about electricity: do you understand how a capacitor works? What the difference between voltage or amperage is? And regardless ... do you still believe in electricity even if you don't know those things? You don't question how the computer you are using keeps functioning right? What about roads: how much do you know about asphalt, and the impacts of weather on granite, and so on ... but does any of that stop you from believing in roads?

What I'm getting at is that we can't all be pavers AND electricians AND doctors AND oncologists (cancer doctors) AND ... we all have to "take it on faith" that something other humans with expertise are telling us is true. Right?

So why then take this particular thing, and decide that for it and it alone you're not going to do what you do for everything else ... the same thing you do every day, a million times a day: trust and believe that others with more expertise are correct?

I submit that your decision to put Covid to a different standard than cancer, electricity and roads is an article of faith. You have decided a different criteria (don't trust the experts) for it than anything else. Just like you presumably do for Jesus: again, I suspect you standard of belief in him isn't "I have to see it for myself"; you take it on faith right? But if I was like "there's a ghost following you around" you'd go back to your normal standard, and demand to see proof, right?

Again I'm not trying to argue with you about your faith ... I'm just explaining that we're like a Jew and a Christian, and neither will convert the other. I will always be interested in conversations about logic and reason and evidence, but I will never share your faith.

[loramin]

There's a difference being wanting to go about your normal life vs. trying to actively spread a disease and kill people. It's called intent and it matters. Stop trying to equate the two.

Intent definitely matters, at least to most schools of philosophy (I'm sure someone can find a quote from some philosopher arguing otherwise).

But when does responsibility start? If you are aware you could be doing something to hurt someone, and you keep doing it anyway, can you still honestly say you lack any intent to hurt them?

[Pulgasari]

You can reach many ridiculous conclusions with logic, it's not the immortal science you think it is.

[loramin]

You can reach many ridiculous conclusions with logic it's not the immortal science you think it is.

Agreed! But can we both agree that if you try and use logic/reason, expert opinion, and evidence, you're more likely to get the right answer ... vs. "just going with your gut"? (For most questions at least: "what is the meaning of life" maybe not so much ;))

[Gatordash]

I agree with your sentiment but disagree with your approach here Loramin. Other professional jobs aren't injecting a new mRNA vaccine into your body, pavers are just fixing your driveway and electricians are getting your AC running. Its (literally) a lot more personal when a doctor wants to change something in your body.

Which normally I'd be fine with but the problem with anti-vaxxers in this specific case here is that we sort of have a chance to stop this disease if everyone in the world were able to get a vaccine and quarantine for a month. But the reality is that will never happen because of the logistics and at some point we need to face that we have too many dumb people on this planet, as you can tell from these forums.

[Evia]

Thought experiment time: do you believe in cancer? Have you studied it? Do you understand how mutations in DNA develop, or how those mutations result in tumors, or what hereditary factors cause one person to have a greater chance of getting it? And regardless ... do you need to know any of that to believe in it?

Ok, now same question for trichotillomania (a random rare disease I pulled out of my hat that you probably haven't heard of; it makes people pull their hair out): do you believe in it? Even though you (probably) have never had it? You've probably never even have known someone who did. so from your perspective it must just seem like something doctors have "made up"; believing it exists is an article of faith (faith in our medical experts).

Now, same question about electricity: do you understand how a capacitor works? What the difference between voltage or amperage is? And regardless ... do you still believe in electricity even if you don't know those things? You don't question how the computer you are using keeps functioning right? What about roads: how much do you know about asphalt, and the impacts of weather on granite, and so on ... but does any of that stop you from believing in roads?

What I'm getting at is that we can't all be pavers AND electricians AND doctors AND oncologists (cancer doctors) AND ... we all have to "take it on faith" that something other humans with expertise are telling us is true. Right?

So why then take this particular thing, and decide that for it and it alone you're not going to do what you do for everything else ... the same thing you do every day, a million times a day: trust and believe that others with more expertise are correct.

I submit that your decision to put Covid to a different standard than cancer is an article of faith. But as someone who sounds like a person of faith, again I'm not trying to argue with you about your faith ... just explaining that we're like a Jew and a Christian, and neither will convert the other.

Lots to break down here so I'll try my best to summarize and touch on it all.

While I don't deny that to some extent it is important to consult professionals or people who are more knowledgeable on subjects than I for advice and guidance, I don't agree with that in regards to my own body and health care. Much like everything in life there are good and bad in everything and science and western medicine has made incredible advancements in a ton of areas and it shouldn't be discredited. With that said though that doesn't mean they're always right and it's good to be open to that as a possibility and not put blinders on and trust everything 100% no questions asked.

To be honest with you loramin I used to be a huge pro vaxxer. It took a personal experience where I had my baby boy die of sids 6 days after his 30 day vaccine appointment that it shook me and started making me question more. I too thought it best to trust the doctors. Now I know everyone loves to say coralation doesn't equal causation but perfectly healthy baby's don't just die and The vaccine insert did mention sids as a possible side effect.

Now sure I'll admit nobody knows for sure if it was the vax that killed him but I believe it was. I also learned that you cannot hold vaccine manufacturers liable if a death occurs either or the hospital.

You're right we're never going to convince each other and that's not my desire. I just want you to see that there are two sides to this and it feels unfair that my health concerns should go out the window for your health concerns. Where do we draw the line from my rights to your rights if not with our own bodies? Danth said something similar that resonated with me.

Good chat loramin!

[Synphul]

Intent definitely matters, at least to most schools of philosophy (I'm sure someone can find a quote from some philosopher arguing otherwise).

But when does responsibility start? If you are aware you could be doing something to hurt someone, and you keep doing it anyway, can you still honestly say you lack any intent to hurt them?

Absolutely I can say I have the lack of intent to cause harm just because something I do could potentially cause harm. Do you think everyone that causes a car accident has intent to harm the person they hit before they hit them? Most likely not, but we drive around all day knowing it can happen and it's our personal responsibility to take what we can of our own safety into our own hands by being aware and defensive while driving.

It's a matter of calculating the risks. IMO, the risk of me unknowingly spreading the disease to some immunocompromised individual is extremeley low because of my lifestyle and habits, and I have yet to see any science that has changed my mind. There is also a calculated risk on the part of the immunocompromised as to whether or not they want/can get the vaccine or should be out among the public in their condition.

[loramin]

I agree with your sentiment but disagree with your approach here Loramin. Other professional jobs aren't injecting a new mRNA vaccine into your body, pavers are just fixing your driveway and electricians are getting your AC running. Its (literally) a lot more personal when a doctor wants to change something in your body.

To the contrary, I'd point out we're all doing exactly that! At this very moment I'm breathing in pollution from the cars driving on the freeway a few blocks away (but the cars themselves, the location of the freeway, etc. are all regulated, ostensibly for my safety). I'm simultaneously being exposed to radiation from the wires in my wall (but at a level experts have decided is safe for me), and I'm eating food with god knows what toxic chemicals in it (but again, the FDA seems to think this burrito won't kill me)!

I'm sure you can imagine a few more similar examples, because that's a key part of what living in a society is: putting your life in the hands of others.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying our government is the perfect nanny! There's a wealth of historical evidence to the contrary (and as a white man I can't even point to some of the truly horrific betrayal by medical professionals in our history).

Having other humans look out for your interests is a flawed way to live .... but it's also better than any alternative ;) When the perfect all-caring and all-knowing robot overlords arrive, maybe I'll change my mind, but until then we're stuck with each other: the only way we humans can get by is to rely on others' expertise.

[Pulgasari]

Agreed! But can we both agree that if you try and use logic/reason, expert opinion, and evidence, you're more likely to get the right answer ... vs. "just going with your gut"? (For most questions at least: "what is the meaning of life" maybe not so much ;))

I do think that is probable but watch out for Gwaihir, he's got a bucket of rotten apples to pelt us with if he sees this.🪣 🍎🍏

[Jibartik]

Agreed! But can we both agree that if you try and use logic/reason, expert opinion, and evidence, you're more likely to get the right answer ... vs. "just going with your gut"? (For most questions at least: "what is the meaning of life" maybe not so much ;))

This is the plot of the thinning.

8FbQoI8P7c4

[starkind]

Mental health is just as bad as it has ever been the only difference is people have more access to weapons like AR-15s than say a Tommy Gun (price at $200 or equivalent to $3,500 in modern day).

And it isn't just violence in the home it could be at the grocery store, the club, church or work.

Mass shootings are way too prevalent:

Examples - Location in US - Date - Fatalities
Las Vegas Strip massacre - 10/1/2017 - 58
Orlando nightclub massacre - 6/12/2016 - 49
Virginia Tech massacre - 4/16/2007 - 32
Sandy Hook Elementary massacre - 12/14/2012 - 27
Texas First Baptist Church massacre - 11/5/2017 - 26
Luby's massacre - 10/16/1991 - 24
El Paso Walmart mass shooting - 8/3/2019 - 22
San Ysidro McDonald's massacre - 7/18/1984 - 22
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School shooting - 2/14/2018 - 17
United States Postal Service shooting - 8/20/1986 - 15
San Bernardino mass shooting - 12/2/2015 - 14
Binghamton shootings - 4/3/2009 - 14
Fort Hood massacre - 11/5/2009 - 13
Columbine High School massacre - 4/20/1999 - 13
Virginia Beach municipal building shooting - 5/31/2019 - 12
Thousand Oaks nightclub shooting - 11/7/2018 - 12
Washington Navy Yard shooting - 9/16/2013 - 12
Aurora theater shooting - 7/20/2012 - 12
Tree of Life synagogue shooting - 10/27/2018 - 11
Boulder supermarket shooting - 3/22/2021 - 10
Santa Fe High School shooting - 5/18/2018 - 10
Red Lake massacre - 3/21/2005 - 10
GMAC massacre - 6/18/1990 - 10
San Jose VTA shooting - 5/26/2021 - 9
Dayton entertainment district shooting - 8/4/2019 - 9
Umpqua Community College shooting - 10/1/2015 - 9
Charleston Church Shooting - 6/17/2015 - 9
Hartford Beer Distributor shooting - 8/3/2010 - 9
Westroads Mall shooting - 12/5/2007 - 9
Atlanta day trading spree killings - 7/29/1999 - 9
101 California Street shootings - 7/1/1993 - 9
Standard Gravure shooting - 9/14/1989 - 9
FedEx warehouse shooting - 4/15/2021 - 8
Atlanta massage parlor shootings - 3/16/2021 - 8
Seal Beach shooting - 10/12/2011 - 8
Carthage nursing home shooting - 3/29/2009 - 8
Goleta postal shootings - 1/30/2006 - 8
Wedgwood Baptist Church shooting - 9/15/1999 - 8


The United States has had the most mass shootings of any country. In one 2017 study published in Time magazine by criminologist Adam Lankford, it was estimated that 31% of public mass shootings occur in the US, although it has only 5% of the world's population. The study concludes that “The United States and other nations with high firearm ownership rates may be particularly susceptible to future public mass shootings, even if they are relatively peaceful or mentally healthy according to other national indicators.”

And tho Adam Lankford's analyst was scrutinized he later revised his statement above with more research clarifying that although the United States is not significantly more likely than most other countries to have mass shootings that are committed by more than one person, such as the university massacre in Kenya, the United States from 1998-2012 did in fact have more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone. Using the data from Lott and Moody's 2019 study of mass shootings, Lankford explains that "41 of all 138 public mass shootings by single perpetrators worldwide were committed in the United States. That represents 29.7%. Because America had in those years approximately 4.5% of the world's population (according to Lott and Moody's calculations), this indicates that based on their own data, the United States had more than six times its global share of public mass shooters who attacked alone (29.7/4.5 = 6.6).

Mass shootings have also been observed to be followed by an increase in the purchase of weapons, but does not seem to create an increased feeling of needing guns in either gun owners or non-owners.

It is crazy we can't sue gun companies.
But it looks like that if finally changing.

And who would of thought of all places, Mexico is suing the US gun companies.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/mexico-sues-major-gun-makers-in-u-s-court-11628108966

Because of antidepressants and stimulants combined with headgames and chemical restraints. And antipsychotics with horrific side effects.

It's covered up pretty good as private but these guys get hopped up on serotonin n crash, get sick on the meds they get prescribed next. Quit. Go crazy for a few months and go on killing sprees. Also there is an MKUltra taping pplz eyes open and dropping keta n lsd in em with an ultraviolent version of Disney on loop. And releasing ppl armed. Then planting evidence so that the news creates a narrative.

I'm not denying mass killing or shooting or downplaying guns the sheer number of them and their necessity is definitely a factor making this worse and enabling the black ops.

And yes real ppl are dying n real shootings happening. The why and how is the lie.

[mcoy]

I wonder how the results would differ if the Milgram experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) was repeated today.

-Mcoy

[Jibartik]

america has the most mass shootings because we offer the most amount of freedom and people dont like each other very much.

the solution isnt to remove freedom.

[Pulgasari]

This is the plot of the thinning.

8FbQoI8P7c4

Lol at hiding from the cop monster like it's a velociraptor 😎

[Jibartik]

Lol at hiding from the cop monster like it's a velociraptor 😎

im stressed out waiting for a final part 3 :(

[loramin]

To be honest with you loramin I used to be a huge pro vaxxer. It took a personal experience where I had my baby boy die of sids 6 days after his 30 day vaccine appointment that it shook me and started making me question more. I too thought it best to trust the doctors. Now I know everyone loves to say coralation doesn't equal causation but perfectly healthy baby's don't just die and The vaccine insert did mention sids as a possible side effect.

Wow: I honestly can't even imagine that. I say this with no hyperbole, in absolute seriousness: experiencing the death of a child one of (possibly THE) worst experience a human being can live through. I'm truly sorry.

Now sure I'll admit nobody knows for sure if it was the vax that killed him but I believe it was. I also learned that you cannot hold vaccine manufacturers liable if a death occurs either or the hospital.

Well here's another thought experiment: what if it did kill him ... but it saved 50 other kids' lives? This actually gets to your next point.

I just want you to see that there are two sides to this and it feels unfair that my health concerns should go out the window for your health concerns. Where do we draw the line from my rights to your rights if not with our own bodies? Danth said something similar that resonated with me.

Exactly: even if your kid could be sacrificed to save fifty other children, you should have a right to say "fuck you fifty kids: my child isn't the trolley car problem" (a utilitarianism reference). Except ... then you have to look fifty other parents in the eye, knowing you killed their kids :( It's not an easy situation either way.

Earlier, when I referenced libertarianism and the morality of looking after yourself, I wasn't playing devil's advocate: there is a strong argument to be made that relying on institutions (governments, hospitals, etc.) always leaves someone getting screwed over. By that logic, the government should only look after basic rights (eg. life and liberty), and stay out of everything else.

Which brings us full circle to the start: what if your actions lead to my loss of life? The classic example of this is freedom of speech: we all agree freedom of speech is nearly universal, until some asshole yells "fire" in a crowded theatre, and people die stampeding out. Then we punish the asshole in spite of their "free speech rights", because they violated someone else's right to life.

If someone yelled fire in a theatre and someone you loved died in the stampede, would you want them punished? Now, if someone doesn't get a vaccine, and kills someone you love, same question?

I think trying to draw that line reveals the trickiness. If you say "well the vaccine could kill me, yelling won't", you don't really solve the problem, because if the vaccine only has only a 1 in a million chance of death and a 50% chance of saving a life, I'd like to think we'd all agree you're a douchebag for not getting it. But conversely if your chance of saving a life is low, and your risk from the vaccine is high, the reverse must be true.

So again, I won't fight you on getting vaccinated; I haven't lived your life, and you clearly have some good reasons. But if we're talking how things should be, I'll always think saving (savable) lives is a good thing we should strive for, and I'll always believe we should rely on evidence and expertise over our guts.

Good chat loramin!

I felt the same :)

[loramin]

I wonder how the results would differ if the Milgram experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment) was repeated today.

-Mcoy

Heh, it really wasn't an experiment at all, and when actual scientists tried to reproduce his results, they couldn't:

In 2012 Australian psychologist Gina Perry investigated Milgram's data and writings and concluded that Milgram had manipulated the results, and that there was a "troubling mismatch between (published) descriptions of the experiment and evidence of what actually transpired." She wrote that "only half of the people who undertook the experiment fully believed it was real and of those, 66% disobeyed the experimenter".

Hopefully that gives you a little more hope in humanity :)

[loramin]

Jib that Logan Paul movie looked ... interesting. Don't think I'll be watching it, but fun premise.

america has the most mass shootings because we offer the most amount of freedom and people dont like each other very much.

the solution isnt to remove freedom.

What is the solution?

Look, I'll be the first to point out how much better gun violence is all over the world, and then at the same time say "we can't just fix things by getting rid of the guns here" ... because it's true. Whatever your feelings on the 2nd amendment, guns are a part of America, and aren't going anywhere.

But surely you agree mass shootings are a bad thing ... so if we can't remove the guns, and we certainly can't remove the freedom ... are you saying "fuck all the victims of mass shootings, they're just doomed", or are you saying you have a better suggestion to fix the problem?

[Jibartik]

I dont have a solution but that doesn't mean we go with yours :o


But surely you agree mass shootings are a bad thing ... so if we can't remove the guns, and we certainly can't remove the freedom ... are you saying "fuck all the victims of mass shootings, they're just doomed", or are you saying you have a better suggestion to fix the problem?

Here's an idea, lets create really gnarly schools that like take kids away from their parents in marginalized neighborhoods where gun violence is a problem and puts them into re-education centers.

[starkind]

I dont have a solution but that doesn't mean we go with yours :o



Here's an idea, lets create really gnarly schools that like take kids away from their parents in marginalized neighborhoods where gun violence is a problem and puts them into re-education centers.

This sounds a lot like dr evils solution (mine).

Worrying 4u jib.

[Robersonroger38]

There are meetings doctors have on the vaccines, that they want ever share with the public. That they know the kids or whoever it is with a low immune system has a chance to paralyze or even death, but that’s the risk there willing to take , because the chances are low.
If they was to share these meetings with the public, what parent with common cents would want to take that chance on there child or loved one getting injured.

I’m sure the wacko doctors will chime in on how this is fake news , believe what you want I’ve seen the meetings.

[Gatordash]

To be honest with you loramin I used to be a huge pro vaxxer. It took a personal experience where I had my baby boy die of sids 6 days after his 30 day vaccine appointment that it shook me and started making me question more. I too thought it best to trust the doctors. Now I know everyone loves to say coralation doesn't equal causation but perfectly healthy baby's don't just die and The vaccine insert did mention sids as a possible side effect.
Wife and I had two miscarriages which was brutal enough. Can't imagine what you went though.

Some light reading (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7268563/) for anyone interested in vaccines and children. Just kidding its a study from the National Institute of Health so its kind of a crappy read with a lot of numbers and statistics. :)

[HalflingSpergand]

Darn guns damn anti vaxxers! If they would just cooperate i could continue being an arrogant prick know it all!

[Jibartik]

This sounds a lot like dr evils solution (mine).

Worrying 4u jib.

just saying if we're going with unconstitutinal solutions, the one that doesnt penalize the non offenders is as valid, or more valid :(

It was really more of a, oh yeah, damn I guess there is no such thing as a solution, type answer.. because there is nothing you can say is more wrong about that solution, than taking away the rights of gun owners except that you just dont value the gun the way you do a child. But that is just your own opinion, the child is the actual killer in this scenario, so its better to remove the child and prevent the bad parenting to start with :)

the real solution: wait for jesus 2 and no more satan vibes

[cd288]

Intent definitely matters, at least to most schools of philosophy (I'm sure someone can find a quote from some philosopher arguing otherwise).

But when does responsibility start? If you are aware you could be doing something to hurt someone, and you keep doing it anyway, can you still honestly say you lack any intent to hurt them?

In law it certainly wouldn’t be a defense to say “well I didn’t INTEND to do it, I just knew that there were pretty good odds what I was doing could hurt someone”

It’s a nonsensical argument and that commenter is a moron

[cd288]

The thing is you’re expecting other people to subscribe to your medical beliefs. That’s the core issue. While you see vaccines as life saving and excellent preventative medicine, I see it as poison and a violation of everything I believe in. I don’t understand why you cannot take your own medicine to protect you, you need me to take it too. That’s my disconnect. By all means take whatever you want to protect you from the world, but expecting your neighbor to take your medicine too because your medicine doesn’t work unless I take it as well is completely ridiculous.

Do you take any medicine at all? Whether over the counter or prescription?

Have you ever had surgery?

[Gatordash]

In law it certainly wouldn’t be a defense to say “well I didn’t INTEND to do it, I just knew that there were pretty good odds what I was doing could hurt someone”

It’s a nonsensical argument and that commenter is a moron

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or you're just a total idiot. I dunno, take any sort of example you want, take vehicular manslaughter VS vehicular homicide. 'Judge I was drunk driving and didn't mean to kill him VS yeah I ran him over he had it coming.' How about this, 'hey judge I got a parking ticket for parking in a handicap spot but I didn't see it VS fuck handicap people getting the best parking spaces I parked there on purpose.' Which scenario is getting bigger fine? See if you can figure out if intent matters.

[cd288]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or you're just a total idiot. I dunno, take any sort of example you want, take vehicular manslaughter VS vehicular homicide. 'Judge I was drunk driving and didn't mean to kill him VS yeah I ran him over he had it coming.' How about this, 'hey judge I got a parking ticket for parking in a handicap spot but I didn't see it VS fuck handicap people getting the best parking spaces I parked there on purpose.' Which scenario is getting bigger fine? See if you can figure out if intent matters.

Yeah that was my point. You’re still getting convicted of manslaughter

[starkind]

U guys got mad over the semantics of the word manslaughter.

I'm glad u made up tho. U should both be working together against the government supporting fascist authoritarianism. Anything less is probably also a form of manslaughter lol.

[mcoy]

Heh, it really wasn't an experiment at all, and when actual scientists tried to reproduce his results, they couldn't:



Hopefully that gives you a little more hope in humanity :)

I was not aware of that, and yes it does.

Thank you Loramin!

-Mcoy

[Toxigen]

What over reporting of the death rate are you referring to specifically, Mr. antivax conspiracy theorist?

Fact: if you had covid in your system and died, you were a covid fatality.

You dumb fuck.

[Synphul]

Yeah that was my point. You’re still getting convicted of manslaughter

Hey cd, glad to see you're still bitter and thinking you know it all. If you really did, you might realize we were not talking legally but morally/principally when I brought up intent. We are carrying on a conversation that came from Danth and Evia talking about their principles and beliefs. But just to illustrate how much intent really does mean legally, it can currently mean the difference between dismissed charges and terrorism charges in the US regarding COVID as of a DOJ statement made March 25, 2020 indicating that intentional spreading or weaponization of COVID would be considered an act of terror. So, yeah, the difference in punishment for intentionally spreading it versus accidentally spreading it is quite drastic I'd say, so your point is really not made.


If someone yelled fire in a theatre and someone you loved died in the stampede, would you want them punished? Now, if someone doesn't get a vaccine, and kills someone you love, same question?

My simple answer to the COVID question is ‘no’. The vaccination does not stop you from spreading COVID. The best the CDC says is it 'might also help protect people around them.' That's straight from their website. While I believe it does have some benefits, the vaccine is not nearly the panacea you and others make it out to be. The primary reason to take it right now is for your own personal health if you believe it works and are not concerned with unstudied long term side effects. Either way, you can still potentially kill someone's grandma. I do agree with punishing people that intentionally spread it, of course.

[cd288]

Hey cd, glad to see you're still bitter and thinking you know it all. If you really did, you might realize we were not talking legally but morally/principally when I brought up intent. We are carrying on a conversation that came from Danth and Evia talking about their principles and beliefs. But just to illustrate how much intent really does mean legally, it can currently mean the difference between dismissed charges and terrorism charges in the US regarding COVID as of a DOJ statement made March 25, 2020 indicating that intentional spreading or weaponization of COVID would be considered an act of terror. So, yeah, the difference in punishment for intentionally spreading it versus accidentally spreading it is quite drastic I'd say, so your point is really not made.




My simple answer to the COVID question is ‘no’. The vaccination does not stop you from spreading COVID. The best the CDC says is it 'might also help protect people around them.' That's straight from their website. While I believe it does have some benefits, the vaccine is not nearly the panacea you and others make it out to be. The primary reason to take it right now is for your own personal health if you believe it works and are not concerned with unstudied long term side effects. Either way, you can still potentially kill someone's grandma. I do agree with punishing people that intentionally spread it, of course.

Lol what…

[hobart]

Should be required reading for Trumptards, conspiracy theorists, vaccine skeptics, and other morons. Written by an actual Republican and instructor at the Naval War College.

https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge/dp/0190865970/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=death+of+expertise&qid=1628223895&sr=8-1


"Tom Nichols is fighting a rear-guard action on behalf of those dangerous people who actually know what they are talking about. In a compelling, and often witty, polemic, he explores why experts are routinely disregarded and what might be done to get authoritative knowledge taken more seriously." - Sir Lawrence Freedman, Emeritus Professor of War Studies, King's College London, and author of Strategy

[Gatordash]

Yeah that was my point. You’re still getting convicted of manslaughter

No you’re not. Killing someone in a car on purpose is homicide and you’re going to jail for life. Not on purpose is manslaughter and it’s like 1-10 years depending on what state you’re in.

The result is the same in both cases: you kill a guy while driving a car. But if you do it on purpose you go to jail a lot longer than if you do it on accident. So intent is pretty useful.

[starkind]

This thread is about murderous geography not legal definitions or people plz get it back on track and stop trolling.

[Jibartik]

manslaughter and it’s like 1-10 years depending on

how wealthy you are

[cd288]

No you’re not. Killing someone in a car on purpose is homicide and you’re going to jail for life. Not on purpose is manslaughter and it’s like 1-10 years depending on what state you’re in.

The result is the same in both cases: you kill a guy while driving a car. But if you do it on purpose you go to jail a lot longer than if you do it on accident. So intent is pretty useful.

Soooo like I said you’re still getting convicted of manslaughter. You’re not getting off Scott free

[Gatordash]

Soooo like I said you’re still getting convicted of manslaughter. You’re not getting off Scott free

Loramin said intent matters and you replied by saying in law it would be a bad defense and nonsensical to say you didn't intend to do the thing you did.

If you kill someone while driving a car, you could be looking at anywhere from a fine with a probation to life in prison depending on your intent.

So stop being such an idiot please.

[starkind]

Hey guys.


Humor me for one sec.

If, IF the border, it's very existence. Kills someone.

Who goes to jail?

[Baler]

Hey guys.


Humor me for one sec.

If, IF the border, it's very existence. Kills someone.

Who goes to jail?

were they black or white, democrat or otherwise?

[starkind]

were they black or white, democrat or otherwise?

White. F, public figure, owned business. Relation to someone in the senate? But not a politician herself?

[Gatordash]

Hey guys.


Humor me for one sec.

If, IF the border, it's very existence. Kills someone.

Who goes to jail?

its international waters. You can do anything if you're exactly on the border.

[starkind]

its international waters. You can do anything if you're exactly on the border.
The marines can probably just scuttle ur boat if ur in international water and they feel like it.

[cd288]

Loramin said intent matters and you replied by saying in law it would be a bad defense and nonsensical to say you didn't intend to do the thing you did.

If you kill someone while driving a car, you could be looking at anywhere from a fine with a probation to life in prison depending on your intent.

So stop being such an idiot please.

As I said my point was it’s not going to get you off Scott free just by saying I didn’t intend to do anything. You’re just putting words in my mouth lol.

If you’re convicted of vehicular manslaughter you are going to serve some degree of jail time unless there was some significant exacerbating factor of the victim contributing to their own death

[branamil]

Today my CoWorker said the border was at fault that non-vaxed ppl are dying to Covid.

I then said well.. time to get the vaccine I guess, right.
His response was the vaccine is killing everyone who takes it.

I told him over 160,000,000 in the US have been fully vaccinated.

I asked him what are you listening to on your radio on your head phones all day. He told me wayne allyn root. He also, if to reinforce and reassure me, proceeded to tell me Fox is saying the same thing.

I tried to tell him nah thats not right look:

Foxnews is saying those not vaccinated are the bulk of those with covid...
https://www.foxnews.com/health/mississippis-covid-19-cases-delta-unvaccinated-people

He then told me you can't believe that information its all fake and the article was written by a left leaning hack.

He then angrily told me my business can't force me to take the vaccine.
I told him ... but they aren't, calm down.
He then said he isn't taking no tests either, I told him they aren't making thou either.

What a terrible day to be literate

[Gatordash]

As I said my point was it’s not going to get you off Scott free just by saying I didn’t intend to do anything. You’re just putting words in my mouth lol.

If you’re convicted of vehicular manslaughter you are going to serve some degree of jail time unless there was some significant exacerbating factor of the victim contributing to their own death

Yeah you are just trying to change what you said because I pointed out that you are an idiot. Here is what you said:

In law it certainly wouldn’t be a defense to say “well I didn’t INTEND to do it, I just knew that there were pretty good odds what I was doing could hurt someone”

It’s a nonsensical argument and that commenter is a moron

What's that cd288, the cops arrested you for killing a guy while driving 100mph!? Did you know that there are pretty good odds of hurting someone when you drive that fast? Well.., should you face homicide charges or just reckless driving? What's that? your intent doesn't matter? Okay well homicide charges it is then. Glad we got that taken care of. Hey you know that's a lot of meth you got there cd288, did you intend to sell it? Oh, in law, whether you intend to do something or not is not a defense? Oh okay guess that doesn't matter then.

[cd288]

Yeah you are just trying to change what you said because I pointed out that you are an idiot. Here is what you said:



What's that cd288, the cops arrested you for killing a guy while driving 100mph!? Did you know that there are pretty good odds of hurting someone when you drive that fast? Well.., should you face homicide charges or just reckless driving? What's that? your intent doesn't matter? Okay well homicide charges it is then. Glad we got that taken care of. Hey you know that's a lot of meth you got there cd288, did you intend to sell it? Oh, in law, whether you intend to do something or not is not a defense? Oh okay guess that doesn't matter then.

Lol I literally said multiple times that lack of intent wouldn’t get you off completely free. What’s wrong with you dude? Did someone hurt you or something?

You seem to get really wound up over nothing

[starkind]

Lol I literally said multiple times that lack of intent wouldn’t get you off completely free. What’s wrong with you dude? Did someone hurt you or something?

You seem to get really wound up over nothing

cd288 is liike a broken record

[Gwaihir]

That's because CD288 is an AI chatbot. It's impossible to be that stupid. It fails the Turing test. So does Horza for that matter.

Contrarily, Baler does not

[Horza]

Everyone Teppler has a disagreement with about politics is a Jewish automaton.

[Botten]

Just when the vaccine gave some Solace.

https://news.yahoo.com/vaccine-resistant-lambda-variant-us-193100413.html

God why can’t this shit be over with.

[Thorgrimm]

Just when the vaccine gave some Solace.

https://news.yahoo.com/vaccine-resistant-lambda-variant-us-193100413.html

God why can’t this shit be over with.

Fear and Control

They have infinite variants they will roll out

[HalflingSpergand]

Literally lol

[Jibartik]

lol as well

[Gwaihir]

They don't even have to "roll em out" as they already exist and don't exist. It's just a handy go-to now :)

Pitching them out left-handed

[Ooloo]

I'm so god damn sick of dr.fauci's stupid voice sorry just had to vent a little.

[HalflingSpergand]

Step 1 : stop listening to it ( I've never even heard it ) that's all the steps

[Ooloo]

I can't believe you haven't heard it. Fauci voice is omni-present seemingly, regardless of which media you consume. Senatuh pooooooooawwwlllll, that is innnnncorrect

[Toxigen]

go get your 3rd, 4th, 5th fauci ouchies and support big pharma!

[Baler]

go get your 3rd, 4th, 5th fauci ouchies and support big pharma!

Once they stick it in you, you can't get it back out.

[HalflingSpergand]

Occasionally youtube will put a bar of videos that pushes the latest bull shit about black people or covid or other stuff i couldn't care less about. So ya that is annoying but i have autistic nazi powers of not clicking stupid shit

[Mesocyclone]

You're fake news. And you. You're fake news. Grab em by the

[Baler]

You're fake news. And you. You're fake news. Grab em by the

Operation Warp Speed

Sorry? :confused:

[TheBardo]

I'm so god damn sick of dr.fauci's stupid voice sorry just had to vent a little.

haha yeah I feel you. I read this old school EQ forum where some guy insists on posting obtuse nonsense day after day.

[Horza]

i have autistic nazi powers

[Ooloo]

haha yeah I feel you. I read this old school EQ forum where some guy insists on posting obtuse nonsense day after day.

What? The word "obtuse" is a word that mostly dork ass losers on the internet use btw.

[TheBardo]

thanks for the heads up on that. i didn't realize

[hobart]

What? The word "obtuse" is a word that mostly dork ass losers on the internet use btw.

What do they call it in your trailer park?

[Ooloo]

What do they call it in your trailer park?

What?? Obtuse means "pretending not to understand something", essentially. What the fuck was I pretending not to understand?

Cool burn though bro, trailer park. Super creative and original

[Shawk]

What?? Obtuse means "pretending not to understand something", essentially. What the fuck was I pretending not to understand?

Cool burn though bro, trailer park. Super creative and original


- dork ass loser on the internet



ONE OF US :p

[hobart]

What?? Obtuse means "pretending not to understand something", essentially. What the fuck was I pretending not to understand?

Cool burn though bro, trailer park. Super creative and original

I think you're on to something. Trump voters aren't obtuse, they're delusional.

You're an anti-vax conspiracy nut. Where do you live if not a trailer, then?

[TheBardo]

shut up douglas

[TheBardo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYhYzqqs8pQ&ab_channel=MTANewYorkCityTransitEnthusiast

[Ooloo]

I think you're on to something. Trump voters aren't obtuse, they're delusional.

You're an anti-vax conspiracy nut. Where do you live if not a trailer, then?

I'm not even remotely anti-vaxx. Vaccines are a miracle of science and have saved countless lives throughout modern history. They just generally are developed over the course of multiple years, if not decades, in order to test for efficacy and safety. The covid vaccine was developed in months. That isn't a minor difference.

I'm not even anti-*covid* vax, the only thing I'm against is a blind, unquestioning, incurious attitude toward this or anything else.

[Ooloo]

shut up douglas

Who is douglas?

[HalflingSpergand]

I'm anti vax what u going to do about it

[Horza]

I'm not even remotely anti-vaxx. Vaccines are a miracle of science and have saved countless lives throughout modern history. They just generally are developed over the course of multiple years, if not decades, in order to test for efficacy and safety. The covid vaccine was developed in months. That isn't a minor difference.

I'm not even anti-*covid* vax, the only thing I'm against is a blind, unquestioning, incurious attitude toward this or anything else.

I'm not even anti-vax unless Trump tells me to be :p

[Ooloo]

I'm not even anti-vax unless Trump tells me to be :p

What? No, good dear lord man read what I said. There are perfectly reasonable concerns about this particular vaccine, for specific scientific reasons. It doesn't require you to be left or right, it just requires you to be honest.

Also sorry for calling you a sociopath before, that was over the top and I don't really think you're a sociopath. Seriously. That's too strong of a word to just throw around and I should know better

[Whale biologist]

I'm anti vax what u going to do about it

I'm gonna piss and moan on the internet about it.

[HalflingSpergand]

https://i.imgur.com/onDkrlx.gif

[hobart]

I'm not even remotely anti-vaxx. Vaccines are a miracle of science and have saved countless lives throughout modern history. They just generally are developed over the course of multiple years, if not decades, in order to test for efficacy and safety. The covid vaccine was developed in months. That isn't a minor difference.

I'm not even anti-*covid* vax, the only thing I'm against is a blind, unquestioning, incurious attitude toward this or anything else.

Yeah, be curious. Your curiosity is going to going to make up for decades of education and training by professionals who focus on just this. But what do they know? Too bad they're not "curious" too.

[Jibartik]

When Lambda variant hits through the border and the unvaccinated spread it through America, this baby is going to hit 88 miles per hour and you're going to see some serious shit!

[HalflingSpergand]

More like 911 mph

[cd288]

Yeah, be curious. Your curiosity is going to going to make up for decades of education and training by professionals who focus on just this. But what do they know? Too bad they're not "curious" too.

Lol I cracked up at this

[Ooloo]

Yeah, be curious. Your curiosity is going to going to make up for decades of education and training by professionals who focus on just this. But what do they know? Too bad they're not "curious" too.

You are aware that the guy who literally developed MRNA vaccine technology is highly skeptical of the covid vaccine and has serious reservations about it's safety and efficacy?

You're just making a lazy appeal to authority, while ignoring *OTHER* professionals who disagree with the opinion you want to be true. It is highly ironic since the left loves deploying the "trust the science" mantra while not actually acting in a scientific manner.

You're also totally sidestepping the fundamental concept that it's impossible to claim something is safe in the "long term" when it hasn't existed in the long term yet. You can claim the covid vaccine is safe ten years from now, you can't claim it's safe when you have zero long term data with which to make that proclamation. At best you can say "ehhhh, it's probably safe?". My personal stance is that anyone who is particularly vulnerable to covid should get vaccinated. Those who are young and healthy probably don't need to. Oh man, what a crazy anti-vaxxer nutjob!

[hobart]

Ex-wife is board certified in medical genetics. Close friend is the Director of Pharmacy at a hospital. That doesn't make me an expert, but it makes me smart enough to not armchair quarterback because what I hear on the idiot box doesn't fit in with my political views.

I'm not ignoring other professionals. I'm discounting the few outsiders and going with the preponderance of opinion as are my ex-wife, friend, almost every other medical professional you've ever met.

For every Malone, there a Kariko or Ross who made it work and a huge group of professionals who concur with them.

[HalflingSpergand]

No that makes you extremely biased

[cd288]

You are aware that the guy who literally developed MRNA vaccine technology is highly skeptical of the covid vaccine and has serious reservations about it's safety and efficacy?

You're just making a lazy appeal to authority, while ignoring *OTHER* professionals who disagree with the opinion you want to be true. It is highly ironic since the left loves deploying the "trust the science" mantra while not actually acting in a scientific manner.

You're also totally sidestepping the fundamental concept that it's impossible to claim something is safe in the "long term" when it hasn't existed in the long term yet. You can claim the covid vaccine is safe ten years from now, you can't claim it's safe when you have zero long term data with which to make that proclamation. At best you can say "ehhhh, it's probably safe?". My personal stance is that anyone who is particularly vulnerable to covid should get vaccinated. Those who are young and healthy probably don't need to. Oh man, what a crazy anti-vaxxer nutjob!

Or you know, you could look at the extremely low rate of adverse outcomes from the vaccine in the millions of people who have taken it and then look at how that’s a lower rate than people who get COVID dying from it. Pretty easy risk based decision there.

It’s weird how P99 seems to attract low IQ people like this.

[Thorgrimm]

Covid bombs are pouring over a border that's open wide and The Obamas are partying with The Elite like it's 1999

Yet here we have Hobart pretending to be an expert (because he was married to a nurse) trying to gaslight everybody

[Horza]

Covid bombs are pouring over a border that's open wide and The Obamas are partying with The Elite like it's 1999

Yet here we have Hobart pretending to be an expert (because he was married to a nurse) trying to gaslight everybody

Okay, Toxigen.

[Thorgrimm]

Okay, Toxigen.

You're an even bigger joke than Hobart

Nothing you post ever matters

[cd288]

Okay, Toxigen.

Lol

[Whale biologist]

Covid bombs are pouring over a border that's open wide

Have you got the fiscals on what detention costs compared to catch and release?

Remember who's paying.