BUT I REALLY DO PLAY NICE!, AUGUST 14, 2000

[Jimjam]

Source: Everquest General Forum (https://web.archive.org/web/20000815225307/http://boards.station.sony.com/everquest/Forum2/HTML/004652.html).

By the way, this maybe should have been on the rants board, but perhaps Gordon will come down and answer this mere mortal..

Why why why do you create rules that are detrimental to the players? Play nice started off as a way to prevent KS'ing and verbal abuse. Play nice should not be exploited as a means of allowing everyone the same chance at a spot in line for toilet paper...err...getting xp.

The Play Nice Policies were created because a growing number of customers were being subordinated by other, more powerful, groups of players. These other groups would claim 'ownership' of spawns, loot drops, and even entire zones, refusing to allow other people a chance to experience them. On some servers, guilds had certain areas camped 24x7.

The play nice policies, in regards to spawns and camping, are designed to promote equal access to the areas. If a group can get into a room, they have as much right to be there as anyone else. Are the policies perfect? No, of course - what is? No matter what policy we adopt, there will be people who are helped by the policy, and others that are hurt. Sometimes the policy may help them in one instance and hurt in another.

As I've mentioned in the past, if anyone has any ideas for policies that are easy to understand, are enforceable, do not require a larger CS team than before or after the Play Nice Policies, and will please everyone, I'd be happy to discuss them.

- Gordon

It's been a while since the Play Nice rules were introduced now. How do you think they have impacted upon the game, if at all? Have your say on our Burning Issues Forum. Click here (https://web.archive.org/web/20001202101600/http://forums.castersrealm.com/eq/Forum3/HTML/001561.html)to post.

Return to the main news. (https://web.archive.org/web/20001018112334/http://eq.castersrealm.com/)

[RecondoJoe]

The PNP is really toxic, and should have been revised a long time ago. I said this almost as soon as I hit max level and realized that the same groups of players were able to hold camps indefinitely.

It would have been so simple to fix with a simple /list. It's super frustrating to spend 12 hours a day in Lower Guk and watch the camps you want to be camped handed off to some loser who just woke up, and then watch the same asshole turn around and the camp off to someone else who just woke up 12 hours later. Would be so simple to fix this. You want a camp? Then join the /list. The person who is currently occupying the camp is required to pass it off to you when they leave, even if they've invited guild-mates to the group before logging offline.

Like I don't understand how anyone thinks that PNP isn't toxic AF? I literally watched last summer as the same people worked in sleep schedules to farm an FBSS indefinitely. They were literally streamed it on Twitch so if an FBSS dropped while the other person was sleeping... the person who looted it couldn't steal it.

And I would be really surprised if there wasn't boxing involved in this either, just from watching the stream. Like dude, I play literally on two computers at any given time. I have an L-shaped desk, and a VPN. I could very easily park an AFK cleric at Frenzied, and reach over with my left hand, press a single button to stand up, a single button to heal, and sit back down. That's really what it looked like I was watching.

I just don't understand how anyone think that this didn't literally ruin P99 for everyone on the entire server, but ultimately I don't give a fuck. Mischief TLP is 1 month away and I've already loaded my Steam balance for Kronos. Haven't been this excited to play a new game in a really, really long time and I feel like a little kid anticipating Christmas right now. The random loot system sounds so fucking epic, imagine getting an FBSS in Sol B.

[Pulgasari]

It's super frustrating to spend 12 hours a day in Lower Guk.

:p

[OuterChimp]

There is no need for PNP on the Teal Server as we all play nice already.

[BlackBellamy]

I've seen people rage quit because of the PNP effect described above. Long time players, just fed up with the manipulation going on, I hear them voicing their frustration and then they're gone. Several told me the only choice was to join a guild who would be perpetuating the system and they wanted no part of it.

[Snortles Chortles]

pops into a camp momentarily
EXCUSE ME THIS CAMP IS HELD BY US GOOD DAY SIR

[Cecily]

Back in TMO VP days we were so nice we pulled the dragons for the competition.

[CancerMage]

There is actually a big difference in PNP from here, and actual classic. and it all lays in how its enforced. the staff here never tells petition questers to fuck off, when its obvious they are petitioning not because its against the rules, but because it's against the rules as a way to grief.

There is a difference between petitioning people breaking the rules, and petitioning to grief. and due to the way the staff handles petitioning on these servers. it's been the meta for the last 10 years.

Basically its the staffs fault the server is toxic. If they told them to fuck off and grow up. This place would be alot less toxic. And i wouldn't even play here. Because im here for the toxic atmosphere they have created. And for that i am thankful for them. Brad bless the server staff. Nowhere else can you find a bunch of autism mixed with this level of seriousness and rage. Makes for fun gameplay for me.

[starkind]

Play nice used to not mean exclusive access to a camp or mob.

Play nice meant always you had to take turns with the player/group at each and every mob and camp.

So people would grp, they would have 6 chances to roll, and the one idiot trying to solo that mob would get 1 chance. Or 1 turn at the mob. 6 people, 6 turns, 1 person 1 turn. Problem simplified down to it's most basic level.

I never had a GM or GuiDE give exclusive access to a mob for any indefinate period of time. I had to share the smugglers in qeynos acqueducts with 4 ppl, 3 in my grp and 1 person soloing down there, and we all took turns, tho the grp helped each other and eventually the 1 guy just left because 4 ppl, = 4 turns.

[Nirgon]

There is actually a big difference in PNP from here, and actual classic. and it all lays in how its enforced. the staff here never tells petition questers to fuck off, when its obvious they are petitioning not because its against the rules, but because it's against the rules as a way to grief.

There is a difference between petitioning people breaking the rules, and petitioning to grief. and due to the way the staff handles petitioning on these servers. it's been the meta for the last 10 years.

Basically its the staffs fault the server is toxic. If they told them to fuck off and grow up. This place would be alot less toxic. And i wouldn't even play here. Because im here for the toxic atmosphere they have created. And for that i am thankful for them. Brad bless the server staff. Nowhere else can you find a bunch of autism mixed with this level of seriousness and rage. Makes for fun gameplay for me.

I too came for the clown show

[beversami]

I too came for the clown show

What would they do without their lead clown?

[Snortles Chortles]

https://i.imgur.com/CiVWqt6.png

[Nirgon]

What would they do without their lead clown?

I'm not in the UN right now, but I link it to some pals for laughs. It really is hysterical.

[loramin]

I think what it all boils down to is, if you can't change the fundamental game itself (eg. the way live EQ does, using instancing), there's only so many "sharing mechanisms" to choose from.

Option #1: Race. The problem with this is you either need to add non-EQ rules to make racing fair (see raid racing on P99, with its "starting lines"), or it ultimately boils down to a clickfest, where the players who cheat the best (using the least detectable autoclickers) win.

Option #2: Queue. This is the /list approach, and taken to the extreme you get the extremely un-EverQuest-like "wait in line for guaranteed treasure" that we have on Green.

Option #3 Random: This is the fairest approach ... until you try for some mob 50 times in a row and keep missing your random chance. Then it feels decidedly unfair to the person who can never win.

Option #4: Popularity: This is what happens if you allow "lock-downs" in your PNP: inevitably some group of players will "lock a camp down", and then only they and their friends can camp it.

Personally, I think the best "play nice policies" mix the above. For instance, on P99 any uncontested (non-raid) mob is "FTE", ie. a race. But then once someone has the camp, it can turn into a lockdown (eg. current Heiro camp on Green, or countless camps in Blue's history), or it can turn into a queue (eg. OOT AC camp).

My true hope is that most things in P99 will ultimately move towards a combination of race, list, and random. In other words ... race to any uncontested, /list2.0 to be "next in line", and any subsequent people who arrive can /list2.0 to have a random chance to become "next in line" once the current "next in line" becomes the camp holder.

This system would eliminate lock-downs, while still giving the people who show up first their due advantage ... but it wouldn't turn any camp into "sit here for guaranteed loot". If you're not first/second, there's no guaranteed loot for you: you still have to be lucky ... just like it was on live.

[Nirgon]

The preface of: "there are posted server rules and GMs" usually gets the question asked of me "so what's the point of this"

It's basically because mob rule has decided they won't simply play by the server rules. This is the soft cave-in to that process, where if the retards get crazy enough the GMs do mostly whatever they say.

Knowing this and seeing correctly it through that lense makes the entire ordeal, especially the enabling of the retardation in there very entertaining.

[Nirgon]

I think what it all boils down to is, if you can't change the fundamental game itself (eg. the way live EQ does, using instancing), there's only so many "sharing mechanisms" to choose from.

Option #1: Race. The problem with this is you either need to add non-EQ rules to make racing fair (see raid racing on P99, with its "starting lines"), or it ultimately boils down to a clickfest, where the players who cheat the best (using the least detectable autoclickers) win.

Option #2: Queue. This is the /list approach, and taken to the extreme you get the extremely un-EverQuest-like "wait in line for guaranteed treasure" that we have on Green.

Option #3 Random: This is the fairest approach ... until you try for some mob 50 times in a row and keep missing your random chance. Then it feels decidedly unfair to the person who can never win.

Option #4: Popularity: This is what happens if you allow "lock-downs" in your PNP: inevitably some group of players will "lock a camp down", and then only they and their friends can camp it.

Personally, I think the best "play nice policies" mix the above. For instance, on P99 any uncontested (non-raid) mob is "FTE", ie. a race. But then once someone has the camp, it can turn into a lockdown (eg. current Heiro camp on Green, or countless camps in Blue's history), or it can turn into a queue (eg. OOT AC camp).

My true hope is that most things in P99 will ultimately move towards a combination of race, list, and random. In other words ... race to any uncontested, /list2.0 to be "next in line", and any subsequent people who arrive can /list2.0 to have a random chance to become "next in line" once the current "next in line" becomes the camp holder.

This system would eliminate lock-downs, while still giving the people who show up first their due advantage ... but it wouldn't turn any camp into "sit here for guaranteed loot". If you're not first/second, there's no guaranteed loot for you: you still have to be lucky ... just like it was on live.

Option #5 - form Erudite RP guild and make fun of/dunk on them until they harass the staff into disbanding it.

[Snortles Chortles]

https://i.imgur.com/dbvIxoI.png

[RecondoJoe]

Option #2: Queue. This is the /list approach, and taken to the extreme you get the extremely un-EverQuest-like "wait in line for guaranteed treasure" that we have on Green.
.

Not really.

This is essentially the same thing as a guild locking down a camp indefinitely, but it also lets the entire server get a fair chance at the loot. It’s almost like you’re implying that the reason the players who are holding the camp are holding it because they earned it or worked harder, and that allowing other players access to the same content would be a form of welfare.

If I tried to do the same content and simply wasn’t able to do it, or wasn’t willing to put the same amount of hours in, then you might have a point. With JBOOTS this was actually often the case, with other players being required to kill the cyclops for the player in front of them.

But I’ll use Lower Guk as an example. I’ve done Frenzied camp many times, and actually had other players sit there and harass me and hope that I die the entire time so they can snipe the camp. If a /list system was implemented would they suddenly be required to help me do the content? No. It would just mean that when they are done with the camp they have to pass the camp off to someone who has been online and waiting the entire time and not one of their friends or gullies who just showed up 20 minutes ago.

Not to mention one of my friends actually camped Frenzied for like 36 hours straight and never got an FBSS. A list would simply help players get access to a camp. It wouldn’t solo the camp for them or guarantee that they get the item they are after.

Sometimes I feel like the bulk of the server is completely oblivious to how toxic the PNP is. I vividly remember Black Lotus having a low level Rogue call out Frenzied even though he couldn’t kill a single mob there, while his other guild mate rotated back and forth from Ghoul Lord and Frenzied every 30 minutes.

The PNP is literally the definition of welfare loot, but it actually protects the worst kind of people.

I can’t imagine watching this go on from a CSR perspective and being okay with it.

[starkind]

Not really.

This is essentially the same thing as a guild locking down a camp indefinitely, but it also lets the entire server get a fair chance at the loot. It’s almost like you’re implying that the reason the players who are holding the camp are holding it because they earned it or worked harder, and that allowing other players access to the same content would be a form of welfare.

If I tried to do the same content and simply wasn’t able to do it, or wasn’t willing to put the same amount of hours in, then you might have a point. With JBOOTS this was actually often the case, with other players being required to kill the cyclops for the player in front of them.

But I’ll use Lower Guk as an example. I’ve done Frenzied camp many times, and actually had other players sit there and harass me and hope that I die the entire time so they can snipe the camp. If a /list system was implemented would they suddenly be required to help me do the content? No. It would just mean that when they are done with the camp they have to pass the camp off to someone who has been online and waiting the entire time and not one of their friends or gullies who just showed up 20 minutes ago.

Not to mention one of my friends actually camped Frenzied for like 36 hours straight and never got an FBSS. A list would simply help players get access to a camp. It wouldn’t solo the camp for them or guarantee that they get the item they are after.

Sometimes I feel like the bulk of the server is completely oblivious to how toxic the PNP is. I vividly remember Black Lotus having a low level Rogue call out Frenzied even though he couldn’t kill a single mob there, while his other guild mate rotated back and forth from Ghoul Lord and Frenzied every 30 minutes.

The PNP is literally the definition of welfare loot, but it actually protects the worst kind of people.

I can’t imagine watching this go on from a CSR perspective and being okay with it.

Play nice used to not mean exclusive access to a camp or mob.

Play nice meant always you had to take turns with the player/group at each and every mob and camp.

So people would grp, they would have 6 chances to roll, and the one idiot trying to solo that mob would get 1 chance. Or 1 turn at the mob. 6 people, 6 turns, 1 person 1 turn. Problem simplified down to it's most basic level.

I never had a GM or GuiDE give exclusive access to a mob for any indefinate period of time. I had to share the smugglers in qeynos acqueducts with 4 ppl, 3 in my grp and 1 person soloing down there, and we all took turns, tho the grp helped each other and eventually the 1 guy just left because 4 ppl, = 4 turns.

[Horza]

Option #5 - form Erudite RP guild and make fun of/dunk on them until they harass the staff into disbanding it.

At least you got the staff disbanding your racist parody guild right.

[RecondoJoe]

fam I can tell you from experience that this is not accurate. You should check reddit, it has a lot more gripes about this kind of thing.

[starkind]

fam I can tell you from experience that this is not accurate. You should check reddit, it has a lot more gripes about this kind of thing.

Yeah the pnp was enforced differently probably by every gm on every server.

Bertox was lit tho as a teen. And the worst that happened to me ever is I lost my OOC privileges for 30 minutes.

Moderation was light. I think u could catch a 24hr ban for kill stealing after 3 warnings and only habitual offenders got nuked.

Being able to KS eachother with only light punishment or a wrist slap would go a long way to making ppl more courteous. Or else everyone would just KS them at least once. It'd sort itself out.

I still adamantly stand by not allowing players to lock down a camp except for one named, and one named cycle per player.

[Arvan]

Sorry you got bag limits