Some interesting results on strength buffs and (charm)pets

[DMN]

So I've been pretty bored lately and wanted to test this for awhile. my first series of tests is going to involve low level newbie mobs. I chose them becuase the stat buffs should have their biggest impact on those mobs and so if I saw little to no benefit from low level mobs I certainly wouldn't see them in higher level ones. Anyway...

Two different tests with many. maybe even thousand + but at least hundreds of sample sizes. i chose level 1 mobs and made them exclusively fight level 2 mobs.



So first the control group with no buffs versus group with savage + storm, somewhere around +80-90 str. And yes I tested if they stack first.

The buffed group actually had a very slightly lower hit rate (40%, versus 42% -- which is prolly not statistically significant), strongly suggestive that str buffs do not increase hit rate. i was pretty disappointed when i first calculated this as i thought for sure it was going to show the buffs doing absolutely nothing. But then I calculated the average damage and the buff mobs did around 155% more damage than he controls.


When I have time and I'm bored again I'll be testing some higher level mobs and possibly regular summoned pets, either necro or enc I'm not sure yet.

[starkind]

Rusty halbreds are amazing pet weapons.

[DMN]

So i used the lowest level enchanter pet possible and tried to see if this hold true for summoned pets... it certainly seems to. I did 4 different groups this time, unbuffed, buffed +50 str, +great worn staff( no buffs), + staff + buff. Same pet all tests. Only killed level 1 newbie mobs. each test was ~50 hits, I did not count misses/hit percent's since evidence so far says str has no or little effect on it

unbuffed =6.85 average damage per hit
Buffed = 8.25
Unbuffed with staff = 7.95
Staff + buff = 14.05

Well this suggests that the summons work very similarly to charmed pets when it comes to strength buffs. it's very interesting just how much more the damage was increased with the str buff with the staff equipped. That's almost a 75% increase in damage, and again was only using a 50 str buff, while previous test with charm pet was around 90 str. But as noted, the sample sizaes here are significantly smaller.

[starkind]

Yeah, thats nice to know.

[Jimjam]

I don't think there is anything which can be done to boost accuracy - as I'm sure you are aware in game mechanic terms accuracy (chance to hit) is a separate stat to attack (how likely it is that a hit does good damage)*.

I know players can cause extra damage on their hits if they have good strength. I wonder if NPCs and Pets have something similar too?

Did the unbuffed and buffed pet both score similar max hits?

*I appreciate the character sheet displays an 'ATK' value - this is not the attack value the game mechanics use, rather a composite of accuracy and attack, much like how displayed AC is a composite stat of avoidance and mitigation.

[7thGate]

This is how it works in default eqemu, with the caveat that its obviously not necessarily the same here. Hit is rolled vs. avoid, then offense is rolled vs. mitigation to determine which of 20 damage multipliers between 0.1 and 2.0 to use, then bonus damage is added. If it hasn't been changed, str over 75 adds 2 Atk per 3 str as part of the offense calc.

I like the testing. One thing I've wanted to test at some point is to see if NPC stats are also getting capped at 255, as its easy to buff way past that.

[loramin]

Nice work DMN.

https://i.imgur.com/oVG43Je.gif

[Jimjam]

I don't think there is anything which can be done to boost accuracy

Maybe debuffing the target’s strength/agility would make an interesting next line of investigations.

[DMN]

So having tested the lowest level animation versus similarly low level mobs already, I decided flip the script a bit and test out the highest level pet from the 49 summon, which is around level 39ish, on some lower level mobs.

first was some level 15 mobs....
Unbuffed, or buffed, the average damage was not statistically different. I only did about 100 of each, and soon realized they were nearly identical for average damage per hit so I jumped over to doing some level 25 mobs. Once again, did about 100 buffed/unbuffed and had the same realization that there was no significant difference.

I was scratching my head a bit at that point and decided to fight a a mob nearly identical in level to the pet, around level 40.

I haven't completely looked through the data at this moment and have only counted the number of misses and the number of times the pet hit for max damage,

No buff: 112 misses, 38 hit for max damage(52).
buff(+50 str) : 64 misses , 58 for max damage(52).

This suggests that the "to hit chance" was already essentially capped at low level and the additional STR didn't appreciably change it. At higher levels it does appear to change it, prolly because it's not yet capped.

Edit: it also suggests that perhaps when there is a large gap between your pet and a mob the bonus given for increased damage is so high it seems to also cap out, rendering additional STR superfluous.

Unfortunately, I didn't look at all at the level 15 or 25 test accuracy/hit rates, as i had already assumed that STR wouldn't have affect the rates given the prior low level test. Woops.

[BlackBellamy]

As a shaman I buff my pet with everything. I give it dex for chrissake! I would give it charisma but god knows that dog is already much too handsome.

[Jimjam]

This makes sense in context of what we know about mitigation. Once you’ve got enough ac to max out your mitigation against a mob adding more ac will do nothing.

This is the other side of the same coin - once you’ve got enough attack to minimise a mobs mitigation then adding more attack (through strength) shouldn’t do anything.

Very good findings!

I wonder how narrow the window is for where adding str to a pet will actually improve results. I would expect there is a similar cut off against deep reds where you simply can’t add enough str to begin to break through the mitigation.

So having tested the lowest level animation versus similarly low level mobs already, I decided flip the script a bit and test out the highest level pet from the 49 summon, which is around level 39ish, on some lower level mobs.

first was some level 15 mobs....
Unbuffed, or buffed, the average damage was not statistically different. I only did about 100 of each, and soon realized they were nearly identical for average damage per hit so I jumped over to doing some level 25 mobs. Once again, did about 100 buffed/unbuffed and had the same realization that there was no significant difference.

I was scratching my head a bit at that point and decided to fight a a mob nearly identical in level to the pet, around level 40.

I haven't completely looked through the data at this moment and have only counted the number of misses and the number of times the pet hit for max damage,

No buff: 112 misses, 38 hit for max damage(52).
buff(+50 str) : 64 misses , 58 for max damage(52).

This suggests that the "to hit chance" was already essentially capped at low level and the additional STR didn't appreciably change it. At higher levels it does appear to change it, prolly because it's not yet capped.

Edit: it also suggests that perhaps when there is a large gap between your pet and a mob the bonus given for increased damage is so high it seems to also cap out, rendering additional STR superfluous.

Unfortunately, I didn't look at all at the level 15 or 25 test accuracy/hit rates, as i had already assumed that STR wouldn't have affect the rates given the prior low level test. Woops.

Quoted to not lose post to previous page

[starkind]

This makes sense in context of what we know about mitigation. Once you’ve got enough ac to max out your mitigation against a mob adding more ac will do nothing.

This is the other side of the same coin - once you’ve got enough attack to minimise a mobs mitigation then adding more attack (through strength) shouldn’t do anything.

Very good findings!

I wonder how narrow the window is for where adding str to a pet will actually improve results. I would expect there is a similar cut off against deep reds where you simply can’t add enough str to begin to break through the mitigation.



Quoted to not lose post to previous page

It will probably always be beneficial on high blues-red cons.

Probably pointless after 4 lvls. Especially with pets.

Buffing an already 125 str twinked player probably doesn't do much more for them except vs the redder mobs. This is one reason elves are amazing and EQ is so great.

[unsunghero]

This is a bit related, and a question I was going to ask in the caster forums: at what level should I start lugging around a bunch of torches to give to humanoid pets to make them dual wield? I’m level 37 currently, haven’t been doing it

Second question: I only need to give them 1 torch correct? I heard that it automatically goes in offhand and then they main hand punch and offhand swing the torch? Or would I need to always give the charmed pet 2 torches?

[Vivitron]

This is a bit related, and a question I was going to ask in the caster forums: at what level should I start lugging around a bunch of torches to give to humanoid pets to make them dual wield? I’m level 37 currently, haven’t been doing it

Second question: I only need to give them 1 torch correct? I heard that it automatically goes in offhand and then they main hand punch and offhand swing the torch? Or would I need to always give the charmed pet 2 torches?

One torch, start now. I think npcs first get dual wield skill closer to the 20ish range, but you'll see it make a progressively bigger difference on higher level mobs. It works on just about anything that can't be hit by charm animal, which may be broader than what you think of as humanoid. For example it works with biles, wurms, kobolds, elementals. When in doubt use the torch anyway.

For curiosities sake you can give them a torch and a weapon or two different weapons and compare the hit messages to see how much they dw, e.g "hits" vs "crushes".

[unsunghero]

One torch, start now. I think npcs first get dual wield skill closer to the 20ish range, but you'll see it make a progressively bigger difference on higher level mobs. It works on just about anything that can't be hit by charm animal, which may be broader than what you think of as humanoid. For example it works with biles, wurms, kobolds, elementals. When in doubt use the torch anyway.

For curiosities sake you can give them a torch and a weapon or two different weapons and compare the hit messages to see how much they dw, e.g "hits" vs "crushes".

Ty for info, will do

[Jimjam]

One torch, start now. I think npcs first get dual wield skill closer to the 20ish range, but you'll see it make a progressively bigger difference on higher level mobs. It works on just about anything that can't be hit by charm animal, which may be broader than what you think of as humanoid. For example it works with biles, wurms, kobolds, elementals. When in doubt use the torch anyway.

For curiosities sake you can give them a torch and a weapon or two different weapons and compare the hit messages to see how much they dw, e.g "hits" vs "crushes".

on a loosely related matter, I find is interesting how often low level pets will double attack (not duel wield). Having the low level pet double attack for 23 is really glorious.

On the subject of accuracy, as discussed you can't really boost it per se, but you should be able to lower the target's avoidance (which essentially boosts accuracy by proxy) by lowering the target's agility. I've always imagined keeping shallow breath / equivalent active on the higher con mobs really helps the pet land more hits, but perhaps this is an illusion granted by the smidgen more dps the spell brings from magic damage.

[starkind]

on a loosely related matter, I find is interesting how often low level pets will double attack (not duel wield). Having the low level pet double attack for 23 is really glorious.

On the subject of accuracy, as discussed you can't really boost it per se, but you should be able to lower the target's avoidance (which essentially boosts accuracy by proxy) by lowering the target's agility. I've always imagined keeping shallow breath / equivalent active on the higher con mobs really helps the pet land more hits, but perhaps this is an illusion granted by the smidgen more dps the spell brings from magic damage.

I believe all this and 2cnd this and DMN's opinions in this thread.

It's magic.

Just cast your shallow breath on ppl and move on!

[Jimjam]

I believe all this and 2cnd this and DMN's opinions in this thread.

It's magic.

Just cast your shallow breath on ppl and move on!

You may call the game mechanics magic, and they may as well be, but I’ve applied to the school of arcane sciences and hope to don my stained robe real soon.

[starkind]

You may call the game mechanics magic, and they may as well be, but I’ve applied to the school of arcane sciences and hope to don my stained robe real soon.

https://i.imgur.com/nFJe28k.png

[Ashenden]

Please send more pet/mob buff research, I thirst for it. This thread is fantastic. Could try letting a mob beat on you with and without cripple.