Y'all have a weird idea of what classic actually was.

[RecondoJoe]

Y'all act like the game died when Luclin came out

https://i.imgur.com/quKz0Mp.png

In real-life, the game became more popular than ever and essentially died when EQ 2 was released.

[starkind]

Wow
Minecraft
DoTA

[Cassawary]

It died because EQ cybering was replaced by Second Life cybering, a game with better sex emotes.

The chart bears this out.

Hope this helps!

[Arcticflava]

Please be kind, OP is very lonely and needs whatever attention he can scrape together. This is all he has.

[Gustoo]

While the game continue to grow and stuff as more and more people started playing MMO's, the core game degraded and became unrecognizable with Luclin and continued on a downward spiral with each additional expansion.

Posting things like this on a messageboard dedicated to 3 servers created and popular specifically for the purpose of offering the otherwise extinct experience of playing Original - Kunark - Velious everquest with as close to original mechanics as we can muster is ridiculous. Play shards of dalaya, live TLP, or PEQ the grand creation, all great servers that allow you to play non classic everquest.

Coming to the p99 community to ask for post Velious expansions and making a case for them when 100% of the non P99 community is already dedicated to that version of everquest is despicable.

The fact that all the other servers go beyond Velious is evidence enough that the later version of the game is popular.

But it's not popular here.

It's like going to a candlemaking club and telling them how much more efficient and bright an LED lightbulb is. Like...duh? Some people like candles. P99 likes everquest that doesn't go past velious.

[DMN]

Game started to stagnate circa 2001-2002. Most of the "new" subscriptions at that point were second or third accounts. A lot of people went to DaoC/AO and then jumped around to various other MMO -- not EQ.

[this user was banned]

Why wasn’t Anarchy Online on that list? That game was great, and it’s still going too.

[A Knight]

It could be that the game was so good, it took forever for it to become a not good game.

Luclin may have just been a new version of instant messenger but you collect items, and if that was my first Aol instant messenger I would think it was great.

[starkind]

Why wasn’t Anarchy Online on that list? That game was great, and it’s still going too.

^

[OuterChimp]

Wow
Minecraft
DoTA

/wrong!

Minecraft killed EQ and WoW.

PST send tells please for an invite to my survival world!

[starkind]

Please be kind, OP is very lonely and needs whatever attention he can scrape together. This is all he has.

i'm lonely to and also have online social anxiety

so like in an mmo if someone comes near me i put them on ignore and run away or have to zone out :o

[Endorra]

i'm lonely to and also have online social anxiety

so like in an mmo if someone comes near me i put them on ignore and run away or have to zone out :o

I'll be your friend.

Wanna cyber on Second Life? This game sucks anyway.

[Snortles Chortles]

if we all just ignored big j larps, he would go away :roll eyes:

[Endorra]

if we all just ignored big j larps, he would go away :roll eyes:

I think you of all people know that some folks just won't go away.

[Snortles Chortles]

https://i.imgur.com/Cv6UIcZ.gif

[starkind]

I'll be your friend.

Wanna cyber on Second Life? This game sucks anyway.

I am not able to have an intimate sexual relationship at this time.

I just wanted to level a rogue to 60. Which requires social interaction.

Friendships. Especially in this game are hard to keep casual. Especially when you are as cool and likeable as me. Like I don't know how else to explain it. It's part of the reason I delete and reroll so much. Because I struggle with the inevitable obligations and reciprocation. Like sharing loot. Or going to a long boring camp for some else.

Anyway. Maybe single player, wow, morrowind is my speed.

I don't want help. Just to leach exp.

[UrkTheSlayer]

I remember trying Minecraft when it was first getting all its hype: didn’t understand it. Played it again on Easter at my cousins with my little cousins(the nephew kind but they’re your cousins kids) still don’t get it. I remember the player base dwindling to Minecraft, not just eq: I would alt tab to play cs or wolfinstein while I med, I remember getting into a server of friends that are normally full.

Finally I asked, cause truthfully I’d rather play gems to med then cs with 3 people.

“They’re all playing Minecraft.”

[RecondoJoe]

i'm lonely to and also have online social anxiety

so like in an mmo if someone comes near me i put them on ignore and run away or have to zone out :o

It makes me nervous too, this is why I main Rogue in WoW, can just stealth if people bug me.

[starkind]

Minecraft was fun for me because I built a hobbit home at the edge of a snowy forest and made the area safe and gardened when I first got it. And I got to go exploring and finding treasures, mapping. Something I can't do IRL.

But its not really the same after the proceduralness and loneliness becomes overwhelming. Then I watched mindcrack and hermitcraft for the brofeel social aspect.

I think it's cool people design whole worlds and recreate stuff like the enterprise in it.

[starkind]

also with minecraft feed the beast there was this mod actualy aditions which was fun to tinker with setting up some really crazy 'systems' or engineering, even tho i hate computer design/brain stuff my IQ isn't intense, it was just fun to tinker with it because it was so organic to just make a timer and reposition things until it kinda worked

Botania also another really great mod.

[RecondoJoe]

While the game continue to grow and stuff as more and more people started playing MMO's, the core game degraded and became unrecognizable with Luclin and continued on a downward spiral with each additional expansion.

Posting things like this on a messageboard dedicated to 3 servers created and popular specifically for the purpose of offering the otherwise extinct experience of playing Original - Kunark - Velious everquest with as close to original mechanics as we can muster is ridiculous. Play shards of dalaya, live TLP, or PEQ the grand creation, all great servers that allow you to play non classic everquest.

Coming to the p99 community to ask for post Velious expansions and making a case for them when 100% of the non P99 community is already dedicated to that version of everquest is despicable.

The fact that all the other servers go beyond Velious is evidence enough that the later version of the game is popular.

But it's not popular here.

It's like going to a candlemaking club and telling them how much more efficient and bright an LED lightbulb is. Like...duh? Some people like candles. P99 likes everquest that doesn't go past velious.

I'm not against P99 at all. I appreciate the idea, and don't like how Daybreak's progression servers release a new expac every month. It's just weird when people on here act like everyone quit playing when Luclin came out because I don't think that was the case at all. I think more people started playing as the hype took off.

I also don't remember anyone on my servers digesting the content that fast 20 years ago. I remember raiding Plane of Hate when Luclin dropped because I just got a Woven Shadow and thought it looked SO COOL on the new models.

[starkind]

I'm not against P99 at all. I appreciate the idea, and don't like how Daybreak's progression servers release a new expac every month. It's just weird when people on here act like everyone quit playing when Luclin came out because I don't think that was the case at all. I think more people started playing as the hype took off.

I also don't remember anyone on my servers digesting the content that fast 20 years ago. I remember raiding Plane of Hate when Luclin dropped because I just got a Woven Shadow and thought it looked SO COOL on the new models.

Exactly.

Luclin was probably the most balanced pvp expansion too.

[Tnair]

It's the fast-travel portals that really killed the game, following the business model of prioritizing getting new subscribers over keeping current ones.

I got a 220 martial artist in Anarchy Online instead of the college education I was supposed to be getting, and I can't say I 100% regret it. That was a damn good game before p2w point system

[cd288]

I'm not against P99 at all. I appreciate the idea, and don't like how Daybreak's progression servers release a new expac every month. It's just weird when people on here act like everyone quit playing when Luclin came out because I don't think that was the case at all. I think more people started playing as the hype took off.

I also don't remember anyone on my servers digesting the content that fast 20 years ago. I remember raiding Plane of Hate when Luclin dropped because I just got a Woven Shadow and thought it looked SO COOL on the new models.

No one acts like people quit playing when Luclin came out. We act exactly as Gustoo said: like Luclin was the beginning of a downward spiral for EQ. Your low IQ is showing again

[Snortles Chortles]

increasingly disheartened about my disenfranchised wizard, during luck in and especially in PoP; once i read whizbangs post on graffe’s about the wow alpha it was enough to permaquit

https://www.graffes.com/forums/showthread.php?15526-WoW-I-Was-a-Teenage-Alpha-Tester

[starkind]

increasingly disheartened about my disenfranchised wizard, during luck in and especially in PoP; once i read whizbangs post on graffe’s about the wow alpha it was enough to permaquit

https://www.graffes.com/forums/showthread.php?15526-WoW-I-Was-a-Teenage-Alpha-Tester

This is a pretty solid post, and why I still love retail wow. I just don't have the time and patience for the (Time Gated) grind. like it's devolved into, in order to keep up with the people doing heroic (my level of hard) instances and stuffs. And heroics sadly got easier with mythic + invented, while mythic + is coool it's hard to cope with the 1-5 ranks when everyone good is pushing immediatly 10+ and requries a lot of patience to get newbz on the level.

It is not fantasy or high fantasy tho. For sure. It's very much not to be taken super literally and serially seriously.

hardcore Survival modded wow would be something to behold :D

[Naerron]

peak being right around 2005 is exactly how i remember it. PoP-OoW is really what i remember when thinking of my childhood everquesting from 2000-2007

[Naerron]

also...i would argue that PoP is the best expansion EQ ever had. It took raiding to a whole new level and offered years of content and great lore.

Say what you want about PoK and such, but in the moment, people like them and it was needed. I think P99 could be successful with books only sending you too PoK and ports out. But, people still needed ports all the time even with the books

FoH kind of spoiled it and threw a big fit about plane of time and i think that puts a rain cloud on it for a lot of people

[Danth]

Y'all act like the game died when Luclin came out

Note that Sony changed how it defined subscribers a number of times making those charts slightly suspect. Regardless, the usual definition doesn't relate to relative popularity anyhow so its a moot point.

Classic is original through Velious because Kunark and Velious were planned from the get-go. They were cut from original release due to time/budget constraints; you can find references to them in the original game. While the as-built Kunark and Velious continents differed in some ways from their original designs due to improving technology and changing needs, they were at least planned to be there from the start. Luclin and beyond were new content conceived and planned entirely after launch, hence not "classic" anymore. There are some other distinctions that occur during that period as well, such as the departure of much of the original creative staff, re-branding the game to Sony instead of Verant, and major mechanic and graphical alterations. Such changes serve to further separate Luclin+ from the earlier versions of EQ.

Some folks enjoy the Luclin/Planes era (I don't)--witness the existence of TAKP--but it feels like quite a different game than original through Velious. Dividing them up into separate "eras" seems fair enough.

Danth

[Snortles Chortles]

https://i.imgur.com/fuGquL9.gif

[Bardp1999]

https://i.imgur.com/HDd8AWh.gif

[Gustoo]

Another note is that a lot of people were playing classic everquest even well into POP.

A lot of people never hit level 50, let alone level 60. Most of that play was taking place in vanilla zones, the heart of the game.

With Luclin you get paludal caverns and the bazaar and a lot of other features that really pull the rug out from the classic game experience. There are so many reasons that its hard to even cover. My personally preference is for pure vanilla up to before kunark launch, even though it makes the game a lot more beatable, I like the class balance at vanilla across the board. Crafted items are more valuable and decent, the world is smaller and stats are harder to come by and no one is maxing anything except maybe an ogre who put all starting points into strength.

But each of us are nostalgic for different things. I had a ball of a time in the bazaar. It wasn't as good of a time as I had in kelethin but it was still great. I had a ball of a time getting natureskin and KEI as a level 12 wizard and being pretty much an invincible lightning blaster (against other players)

But I had more fun before and I like when the a mino axe is considered a decent weapon and a total piece of junk YAK is high tier.

I mean even today - does anyone even bother to quest ivy etched armor?

The obsoleting of the original content is the biggest thing for me. I don't like it.

[Gustoo]

The natureskin and KEI was in POP time.

[Naerron]

fine tuning classic-velious would be amazing. There's a ton of content and itemization, and graphic tuning they never did due to time/budget. Here's a small list that, imo, would make p99 amazing on a whole new level

These are things that can and are being done by the community. But would be easier as a dev and not doing it all client side:

1. finish skinning raid loot. A sword that is part of a dragon's chosen collection of treasure should not look like the rusty sword being slung around by a decaying skeleton.
2. Make custom armor skins based on the items, not the race

These are things that would require a dev.
1. Put all the lore into a DB as random strings, each week they get put together to make a lore appropriate encounter. Sergeant Slate, you have drama to answer for sir!!
2. Flesh out unfinished zones or add to those that just seem like their full potential were never realized. Examples: those cool swords sticking out of the ground in "the hole". Or the zone into what became SolC near the traitor camp in SoLa.
3. Create a faction dynamic with raid bosses for classic everquest similar to velious. Imagine a ring war style event with dark elves swarming FP, and if they won taking boats to destroy kaladim, kelethin, and felwithe...

Bring back removed raids:
1.bring back mayong, tune up and add a loot table.
2. add the new revamped style ST with ancients instead of warders
3. make raids for the global god models includes in the base game sd3 files.. Erollisi Marr, tribunal, and rallos zek to name a few.

The dev time on that stuff might seem intensive but really, we could crowd source this out to the many talented people in our community. Even if it's just coming up with compelling storylines with lore that checks out.

I guess it just pains my soul at all of the lost potential we have here. I would even take p99 <insert color> that is just a clone with luclin enabled. Would be interesting to see how many people swap to it full time over blue.

[Naerron]

One last thing to add..

Most people cite these two things, the bazaar, and the scions.

1. the bazaar - the /trader function didn't work till well into PoP, so, everyone still just /auctioned off stuff, except now there was a cool arena to play around in after raids.

The bazaar was a place i had so much fun, stress free pvp with all sorts of people. It was kind of like after a show at 2am once the bar is closed while everyone is getting cabs and shit. Slight party atmosphere, but nothing really to focus on lol

2. "the free ports ruined everything" - Scions would port every 15 minutes IF you remembered to hail them for the diamond. There were four (right?) of them across the entire world and all from zones that people can port to/from. With dial, i hardly if ever wait that long. If anything i bet luclin would put DAP back on the MAP.


Also, i see no reason why we couldn't do luclin where we still don't implement some of the QoL things like in game maps that people think mitigate the game's grittyness

[Danth]

1. finish skinning raid loot. A sword that is part of a dragon's chosen collection of treasure should not look like the rusty sword being slung around by a decaying skeleton.

Why can't it look plain? The dragon isn't hoarding that sword because of what it looks like, he's hoarding it because of the thing's magical enchantments. I don't see any reason why your highly enchanted vorpal blade of ever-cutting couldn't look like a regular blade of similar profile. Doesn't bother me.

[Snortles Chortles]

i was quad kiting raptors the day i quit pop

[Bardp1999]

i was quad kiting raptors the day i quit pop

a nice science

[A Knight]

I am not even completely against bazaar. Seems like the least of the problems. Not sure if I would keep it if I had my choice though.

[A Knight]

2. Make custom armor skins based on the items, not the race.

I just hope they don't turn every item into looking like an epic, like in Wow.

I like how in EQ most items are basic looking, which is nice in a simulated world, fake or fiction.

If they change up the graphics, for an Everquest Resurrected, I hope its just an updated copy and pasted version.

[hobart]

While the game continue to grow and stuff as more and more people started playing MMO's, the core game degraded and became unrecognizable with Luclin and continued on a downward spiral with each additional expansion.

Posting things like this on a messageboard dedicated to 3 servers created and popular specifically for the purpose of offering the otherwise extinct experience of playing Original - Kunark - Velious everquest with as close to original mechanics as we can muster is ridiculous. Play shards of dalaya, live TLP, or PEQ the grand creation, all great servers that allow you to play non classic everquest.

Coming to the p99 community to ask for post Velious expansions and making a case for them when 100% of the non P99 community is already dedicated to that version of everquest is despicable.

The fact that all the other servers go beyond Velious is evidence enough that the later version of the game is popular.

But it's not popular here.

It's like going to a candlemaking club and telling them how much more efficient and bright an LED lightbulb is. Like...duh? Some people like candles. P99 likes everquest that doesn't go past velious.

The idea that there's some consensus that classic ended with Luclin is nonsense.

You don't get to decide what is/was classic. Neither do the owners of the project - they just get to decide what experience they offer.

Late 2004 was almost simultaneously: 1) the launch of WoW, 2) launch of EQ2, and 3) the shitty and broken OoW expansion (which followed the shitty and broken GoD expansion). That series of events is what I think killed classic EQ.

[cd288]

The idea that there's some consensus that classic ended with Luclin is nonsense.

You don't get to decide what is/was classic. Neither do the owners of the project - they just get to decide what experience they offer.

Late 2004 was almost simultaneously: 1) the launch of WoW, 2) launch of EQ2, and 3) the shitty and broken OoW expansion (which followed the shitty and broken GoD expansion). That series of events is what I think killed classic EQ.

Tells people that they don’t get to have an opinion about something while also telling them your opinion on it

[RecondoJoe]

This is a pretty solid post, and why I still love retail wow. I just don't have the time and patience for the (Time Gated) grind.

Dude, my ARMY friends literally begged me to buy WoW Shadowlands. It's a weird situation because we're all best friends who live on the other sides of the country, so we play games to interact with one another. So I went out and bought Shadowlands just to play with them... AND THEY quit before hitting level 60.

They hated being forced to play the Campaign, which was essentially a single-player version of the game that might as well be played offline. We couldn't really group with one another because we were on different portions of the quest.

Well I make it to level 60, and I grind my fucking heart out on WoW PVP gear, only to find out that I can't even upgrade it because I need to wait another week to do more campaign quests, and then that week comes around, and I grind some more, only to find out I can't upgrade anymore because I have to wait another week for more campaign.

Meanwhile everyone else in PVP has max-level gear and is completely stomping the fuck out of me. After about 4 weeks I was just like this isn't fun, man. Like I'm playing Subtlety Rogue. The entire spec is centered around one-shotting people, but when you don't have the gear to one shot someone, and your burst just tickles them, the spec feels so fucking bad to play.

It's just a terrible idea to force players to be time-gated, like what if you work all the time, and finally get a weekend off and want to dump as much time into the game as you want, but can't because you're only allowed to do so much. It's such a dumb fucking design.

Maybe in their mind it forces players to play the game longer, so more subscriptions, but in practice it just makes players quit playing the fucking game. Like right now if you wanted to play WoW, you would be absolutely retarded to subscribe to the game right now. You need to wait until the next content patch before subscribing.

The game shouldn't be like that. You should be able to play whenever you want, however you want -- forcing PVE'ers to gear up through PVP is toxic af too -- you're forcing raiders to have to do BGs they don't enjoy, and you're forcing PVPers to have to deal with these players who are mostly AFK or don't care about winning/losing to be on the same team as people who really want to win.

[RecondoJoe]

Exactly.

Luclin was probably the most balanced pvp expansion too.

That's actually around the time I started playing on Sullon Zek... I remember leveling in Paludal Caverns, and it was scary because random high levels would show up and slaughter entire groups... I finally gave up when I was in Shadowhaven and had taken money out of the bank to buy something in the Bazaar... I thought it was safe since it was a city with guards... well.. I didn't even notice, I got to the bazaar and when I opened my inventory my money was gone... I was confused, then I scrolled up in the logs and saw where a Rogue had swiped all of my coin... I'm talking thousands of PP.. I quit the game lmao.

[RecondoJoe]

Note that Sony changed how it defined subscribers a number of times making those charts slightly suspect. Regardless, the usual definition doesn't relate to relative popularity anyhow so its a moot point.

Classic is original through Velious because Kunark and Velious were planned from the get-go. They were cut from original release due to time/budget constraints; you can find references to them in the original game. While the as-built Kunark and Velious continents differed in some ways from their original designs due to improving technology and changing needs, they were at least planned to be there from the start. Luclin and beyond were new content conceived and planned entirely after launch, hence not "classic" anymore. There are some other distinctions that occur during that period as well, such as the departure of much of the original creative staff, re-branding the game to Sony instead of Verant, and major mechanic and graphical alterations. Such changes serve to further separate Luclin+ from the earlier versions of EQ.

Some folks enjoy the Luclin/Planes era (I don't)--witness the existence of TAKP--but it feels like quite a different game than original through Velious. Dividing them up into separate "eras" seems fair enough.

Danth

I remember this chart during it's relevant time period, and at that time I was more concerned with the future of EQ 2 and whether or not it was dying. The information was taken from the servers, not from the companies. It was and still is considered very accurate.

[RecondoJoe]

I mean even today - does anyone even bother to quest ivy etched armor?

The obsoleting of the original content is the biggest thing for me. I don't like it.
I agree with this sentiment and this is one of my biggest complaints with WoW. When WoW first came out it their original mission statement was to not increase the level cap and only add more content for level 60 players, but that obviously didn't age well.

When I explain to my friends how in EQ, a new expansion would come out and most players would still be playing the old content, their minds can process how this is possible because all they've ever known is WoW. It's very possible, and I think for future MMOs to have a long-life, almost necessary..?

Like it feels really bad to log into WOW and realize that 99% of the content is trivial and ultimately pointless.

If I made a character on P99 right now, I would still be leveling in old zones, and I wouldn't be able to really skip over most raids. Every character I level on P99 has had a completely different route for progression and the game felt drastically different each time. On WoW you level off the exact same zones, and quest lines, and there's no reason to want to explore. There's no sense of adventure or reward from looking over the next hill to see what it may behold.

[starkind]

they finally got back to that by making max lvl 60 again :D

[hobart]

Tells people that they don’t get to have an opinion about something while also telling them your opinion on it

You need to learn to read.

You get to have an opinion. You just don't get to decide for everyone else nor do you get to characterize what everyone else has decided. Actually you get to try, but you'll just be wrong.

[starkind]

Dude, my ARMY friends literally begged me to buy WoW Shadowlands. It's a weird situation because we're all best friends who live on the other sides of the country, so we play games to interact with one another. So I went out and bought Shadowlands just to play with them... AND THEY quit before hitting level 60.

They hated being forced to play the Campaign, which was essentially a single-player version of the game that might as well be played offline. We couldn't really group with one another because we were on different portions of the quest.

Well I make it to level 60, and I grind my fucking heart out on WoW PVP gear, only to find out that I can't even upgrade it because I need to wait another week to do more campaign quests, and then that week comes around, and I grind some more, only to find out I can't upgrade anymore because I have to wait another week for more campaign.

Meanwhile everyone else in PVP has max-level gear and is completely stomping the fuck out of me. After about 4 weeks I was just like this isn't fun, man. Like I'm playing Subtlety Rogue. The entire spec is centered around one-shotting people, but when you don't have the gear to one shot someone, and your burst just tickles them, the spec feels so fucking bad to play.

It's just a terrible idea to force players to be time-gated, like what if you work all the time, and finally get a weekend off and want to dump as much time into the game as you want, but can't because you're only allowed to do so much. It's such a dumb fucking design.

Maybe in their mind it forces players to play the game longer, so more subscriptions, but in practice it just makes players quit playing the fucking game. Like right now if you wanted to play WoW, you would be absolutely retarded to subscribe to the game right now. You need to wait until the next content patch before subscribing.

The game shouldn't be like that. You should be able to play whenever you want, however you want -- forcing PVE'ers to gear up through PVP is toxic af too -- you're forcing raiders to have to do BGs they don't enjoy, and you're forcing PVPers to have to deal with these players who are mostly AFK or don't care about winning/losing to be on the same team as people who really want to win.

phasing is terrible except for like a player city with like one final level ya were things change

the garrison in WoD was good phasing tho

[Danth]

It was and still is considered very accurate.

You're posting data that mirrors what used to be posted on mmogchart. Whatever site you pulled that graph off simply copied the old one. It was mostly compiled from companies' own public statements. That's why the EQ graph has that solitary (and ridiculous) spike in 2004--that was when Sony most radically re-defined what it counted as a subscriber. The "growth phase" and "stagnation era" numbers for EQ from 1999 into 2003 are usually regarded as more or less accurate.

You get to have an opinion. You just don't get to decide for everyone else nor do you get to characterize what everyone else has decided. Actually you get to try, but you'll just be wrong.

In this case it benefits us as a community to accept a definition of "classic EQ" because it serves the benefit of communication. I'd rather talk about classic--which insofar as P1999 is concerned very much includes content through but not beyond Velious--than argue over definitions. Words need accepted meanings.

Danth

[hobart]

In this case it benefits us as a community to accept a definition of "classic EQ" because it serves the benefit of communication. I'd rather talk about classic--which insofar as P1999 is concerned very much includes content through but not beyond Velious--than argue over definitions. Words need accepted meanings.


I get you. I don't really disagree. But classic as is tossed around here sometimes implies something beyond "insofar as P1999 is concerned".

"Not Classic" works as a response to any Luclin talk when it means "outside of the scope the project owners have defined". But it often just means "I don't like the Nexus or VahShir".

[Danth]

That's true, Hobart. I might not like some of those later-era things, either, but I can articulate why beyond a two word grunt.

[Shawk]

Ya'll, who is saying this? Did someone specifically say that Higher Numbers == Good Game?

I don't think anyone would disagree in this sense. The Numbers got higher but EQ Classic, Kunark and Velious were the superior products. Planes of Power although a marvel at the time, ruined a few aspects of my enjoyment of the game. There were first principle game design decisions that were changed around the Planes of Power release.. They weren't exactly at that moment but the list includes things like:

Instancing - This is immersion destruction.. Obviously people disagree but I was 13 years old back then and I knew this would kill it.

Teleportation - Teleportation became easier. Less reliance on Community/Wizards.

Graphics "Upgrade" - The new Interface, new 3d Models, were not good. They were uncanny, just as Everquest 2 was in that graphical sense.. I have a clear distinction between GAME and IRL, I don't want games looking real, I want them looking like games. And I prefer the pixelated look, especially in higher resolution.. The Textures were the only thing that needed messing with like they did in Velious.

Bazaar - Complete destruction of Auction Channel and that Community building aspect of the game. I was on Solusek Ro and Gfay became a dead zone after this change. It did create a "new" experience though.

Which is why I don't disagree or agree I just have a preference that I have had my whole like and I prefer simpler immersive RPGs, with zones that are live and not "instanced" with spell effects that actually look fluid.. and I guess you can sum my entire opinion up as "just nostalgia" if you want to generalize it.

In the end I am niche.. I argued these design decisions were TERRIBLE back then, so did a lot of the devs as we found out later on.

Same thing happened to World of Warcraft. If anyone of you remembers back then, do you remember when the PVP zones were not Instanced? For example Alterac Valley was some sort of disagreement between devs as it was originally suppose to be some replication of the Warcraft game, Originally it wasn't an Instance for one which made it far more immersive and it was just be going on until someone won.

Originally Alterac Valley you just zone into and even as a casual player you could contribute to the War efforts by just gathering skins and stuff to create bigger armies and equip them better..

Instancing in general to me is literally death of immersion. Most people today consider instancing and zones to be the same thing.. Alas this is where the genre went and why you see things like BDO doing well.

[starkind]

Time gating and requiring raiding for even the mediocre tradeskills in bla was terrible.

Having to farm raids on cookdown to make rings worse than what I was getting from mythic instances was a huge let down.

[Shawk]

That said.. Even the numbers there add up.. After PoP there was a stagnant increase because all though the game was still going it wasn't going in the same direction and because of the things I mentioned the hardcore fans widdled away.

While the first three expansions kept a steady incline.

It became a game for completion types. Titles, "feats".. Which is where it should have gone honestly.. I don't see any issues with the development I just find an issue with how they didn't create some sort of "classic" servers while developing the game. Obviously Heinseight is 20/20 but really I think there should have been era separation of some sort but they thought these were evolutionary new features when in reality the more you develop over the first principle ideas the more you move away from them.

You can see the same thing with Dark age of Camelot. Shrouded Isles was an extremely good expansion, on par with Kunark... Trials of Atlantis was the same mistake that Planes of Power made.

And Both Brad (RIP) and Mark Jacobs both said that corporate decisions decided these mistakes as the players wanted it as "Community Market Managers" became the norm and to this day those jobs are what are killing the core first principles of what made MMORPGS originally great.

[gredoo]

MMO's always suffer the problem of once people max level and get all the gear they want content becomes both too easy and boring. For everquest they made more content that was harder. In WoW they made all the content from the last expansion pointless (and also so you could always pick up and play with friends in a new expansion without needing all the prior gear) in other games they just have PvP. (but what's the point of pvp if you're not contesting anything valuable?)