Green Raid Rules Discussion...

[Gentry88]

Rules To Fix It All

1. Each Guild (Player/IP) gets 1 Boss kill per 48hr period. (FTE)
2. Lock out mobs to be rotated by each guild. (Trak)
3. Plains to be rotated by each guild.

This should promote smaller more skill-based guilds of like-minded active players. Making Boss encounters a strategy base game versus a 5sec boss kill with 200 people. Everyone will have more opportunity to see content without it being handed to them on an open raid platter. GM can enforce account and IP kill counts and Permanently Delete players on more than one log in 48hrs across all accounts characters. Harsh punishment will help prevent people from trying to cheat the rules. Players can still poop sock mobs for 16 hours to get the Boss they want for their 48hr window. More casual guilds can get opportunities at Boss mobs without the need to poop sock or answer a bat phone at 3am. The added number of smaller skill-based guilds will provide more races and more competition at the high-end mobs (what everyone keeps saying they want so badly).

The longer the time between earthquake will spread mobs out so guilds can have races every 48hrs. This will also fix itself every Earthquake and allow more casual groups to get in on Boss mobs. It will only get better and more options with Velious Boss mobs. Not Guild (X) killed 9 of the 17 Boss mobs at Earthquake.

More guilds will push Plain of sky raid out to once every 2nd or 3rd week maybe. Making the loot and event more interesting to show up versus every week on Tuesday. With these small guilds the key issue will be less, Players can still come up and corpse every 7 days if needed.

Raid group of 200+ people will be a thing of the past.

No more need for 85734.83abcd Law books in a UN chat…..

I posted in the green UN with little to no feedback. Maybe we can get some support to think outside the box here..... or maybe just trolls

[Gentry88]

Promoting rules that foster smaller groups of people working for content just seem more fun to me. Many may not agree, you all may think that after a 16 hr window killing said target with 200 people in 5 seconds is rewarding. At Earthquake 60% of the content being killed by one mega guild within what 2 hour or less of the quake is rewarding. I assume if we stopped doing the same stuff in the UN again and again, we think outside the box and try to change the mega zerg guild gets it all culture. You all may have 200 besties .. idk

[loramin]

Maybe the solution ... to a problem that inherently requires getting a lot of different people to agree ... isn't going to come from one lone genius?

Perhaps it will instead require a bunch of those people working together, to hash out an agreement that they all can abide by?

Just a thought.

[OuterChimp]

I am sooooo friggen close to dinging level 75 on My Singing Monsters!

[Coridan]

You keep saying 200+ people. That's not a thing. Most raid forces are currently 50-75.

[Hibren]

You keep saying 200+ people. That's not a thing. Most raid forces are currently 50-75.

And when there's more than 1 raid force you have to add those numbers together.....

[Bach]

Is that a troll post? Are you trying to give seal team a heart attack???

In all seriousness, that will never happen, why would a guild be locked of a target if they killed something less than 48hrs ago, this is just plain stupid I am afraid.

Groups of casuals will always struggle to kill primo raid targets, you cannot play very little and also get the best gear, it makes sense, this isn't wow.

All the devs can do is significantly reduce window and have a bag limit on key boss.

[Gentry88]

Is that a troll post? Are you trying to give seal team a heart attack???

In all seriousness, that will never happen, why would a guild be locked of a target if they killed something less than 48hrs ago, this is just plain stupid I am afraid.

Groups of casuals will always struggle to kill primo raid targets, you cannot play very little and also get the best gear, it makes sense, this isn't wow.

All the devs can do is significantly reduce window and have a bag limit on key boss.

Its just an open dialog of ideas to discuss. I appreciate your zerg guilds should get it all, join them or be left behind attitude. I assume there is a large community of people that think like you. My forum is for people to look outside the p99 traditions and see if we cant as a group think of ways to include everyone without the OPEN RAID. The UN keeps focusing on giving free gear away each month to keep casuals happy. All i am saying is let the Casuals go out and earn the gear. It will be lot more rewarding.

Thanks for the Troll post !

[Bach]

Its just an open dialog of ideas to discuss. I appreciate your zerg guilds should get it all, join them or be left behind attitude. I assume there is a large community of people that think like you. My forum is for people to look outside the p99 traditions and see if we cant as a group think of ways to include everyone without the OPEN RAID. The UN keeps focusing on giving free gear away each month to keep casuals happy. All i am saying is let the Casuals go out and earn the gear. It will be lot more rewarding.

Thanks for the Troll post !

A 40 50 average guild is a zerg guild? Thanks for the input

There's a need to make it easier to compete, however what you're asking for is just to be given mob without having to compete, I can't see this happening.

The 3 bag limit encourages competition.

The shorter window encourages competition.

Your suggestion goes against the very spirit of that.

What you are looking for is instances content.

Also calling any guild larger than your a zerg guild shows how biased you are.

Normal guild raids in EQ are designed for 54 person, that the usual design of an encounter.

[Gentry88]

A 40 50 average guild is a zerg guild? Thanks for the input

There's a need to make it easier to compete, however what you're asking for is just to be given mob without having to compete, I can't see this happening,.

What guild has 40 members raiding ? you think Seal team only have 40 members covering every 16 hour window?

(Sorry to use Seal Team as an example, not trying to be negative to guilds and how they compete, it is what it is currently)

[Bach]

What guild has 40 members raiding ? you think Seal team only have 40 members covering every 16 hour window?

(Sorry to use Seal Team as an example, not trying to be negative to guilds and how they compete, it is what it is currently)

Seal team zerg guild is not as much of an issue as insanely large windows.

As you said so yourself you do not need 100 people to kill a target.

The main problem competition faces is having literally 2mn to batphone a target and engage, is very hard

If we had 1h window instead of 16hrs we would be able to see some decent competition.

[Nexii]

Seal team zerg guild is not as much of an issue as insanely large windows.

As you said so yourself you do not need 100 people to kill a target.

The main problem competition faces is having literally 2mn to batphone a target and engage, is very hard

If we had 1h window instead of 16hrs we would be able to see some decent competition.

Agree. Down with the megazergs. Whatever it takes. Exclusive locks. Bag limits. Shorter windows. Kill one concede one. C/R/FFA.

Megazerg guilds are the reason blue and green servers are extremely toxic right now. Not just inter-guild as in the UN, but intra-guild as well. A more sane competition ruleset goes a long way, as it allows guilds to turn down bad players / toxic people.

Right now that doesn't happen and the worst kinds of people tend to percolate to the top.

[Gentry88]

A 40 50 average guild is a zerg guild? Thanks for the input

There's a need to make it easier to compete, however what you're asking for is just to be given mob without having to compete, I can't see this happening.

The 3 bag limit encourages competition.

The shorter window encourages competition.

Your suggestion goes against the very spirit of that.

What you are looking for is instances content.

Also calling any guild larger than your a zerg guild shows how biased you are.

Normal guild raids in EQ are designed for 54 person, that the usual design of an encounter.



There's a need to make it easier to compete, however what you're asking for is just to be given mob without having to compete, I can't see this happening.

Having window limits will naturally move players into small groups, having smaller groups will most likely still outnumber if not match the number of content. Mobs will get killed, mobs will be contested. The mobs still spawns, and requests you to get to it first. It also request you bring enough people to complete the kill.

The 3 bag limit encourages competition.

I believe this is an alright idea if you keep the current 2 party competition theme. Steal Team Versus Everyone else ? (BL - King - Ven). I also think if you let each group stand on there own and not need to have mega partnership they would all have more fun.

The shorter window encourages competition.

This is programming change and I just don't take that into consideration. (Player agreements)

Your suggestion goes against the very spirit of that.

Spirit of what ? please give a bit more context

What you are looking for is instances content.

Nope (Easy answer)

Also calling any guild larger than your a zerg guild shows how biased you are.

Killing a raid target in under 60sec is what I picture as a zerg Guild. I think that's the first time I've said how I define it.. Thanks helping me clear that up. Our guild hasn't killed anything so I am unsure of how it would go.
Maybe we too are a zerg ... idk would need to see.


Again Thanks for your Trolling comments ! very productive!

[reznor_]

The meta in Velious literally calls for large forces (80-100) to handle targets. That is the reality. Sorry for you new-to-p99-because-green-is-a-thing folks. This is the way it is.

I've been part of a 40-person squad killing high value targets, and I've done the same with a 120 person squad. I am tired of people who don't understand the distinction between the two and why we are where we are.

We (the players) did not cause this. The server Admins did. The dragons are rooted and different tactics are called for.

It would be one thing to talk shit about a zerg guild back when FTE locks or unrooted dragons were a thing. Now, that's who succeeds across the board, and the players/leaders of these guilds didn't have anything to do with the rooting.

[Gentry88]

The meta in Velious literally calls for large forces (80-100) to handle targets. That is the reality. Sorry for you new-to-p99-because-green-is-a-thing folks. This is the way it is.

I've been part of a 40-person squad killing high value targets, and I've done the same with a 120 person squad. I am tired of people who don't understand the distinction between the two and why we are where we are.

We (the players) did not cause this. The server Admins did. The dragons are rooted and different tactics are called for.

It would be one thing to talk shit about a zerg guild back when FTE locks or unrooted dragons were a thing. Now, that's who succeeds across the board, and the players/leaders of these guilds didn't have anything to do with the rooting.


Thanks for your comment, I agree on blue there is a level of need to have enough people to complete a task based on rule sets. That being said, if we work out a solution on green maybe we can enjoy the old days of NTOV racing (One of, if not the most fun moments in my p99 history is NTOV racing).

[Nexii]

The meta in Velious literally calls for large forces (80-100) to handle targets. That is the reality. Sorry for you new-to-p99-because-green-is-a-thing folks. This is the way it is.

I've been part of a 40-person squad killing high value targets, and I've done the same with a 120 person squad. I am tired of people who don't understand the distinction between the two and why we are where we are.

We (the players) did not cause this. The server Admins did. The dragons are rooted and different tactics are called for.

It would be one thing to talk shit about a zerg guild back when FTE locks or unrooted dragons were a thing. Now, that's who succeeds across the board, and the players/leaders of these guilds didn't have anything to do with the rooting.

Yea the problem is the rules. The players are just going to do what they have to. I don't fault people for forming up 120 person squads because it's become the only way to be remotely competitive.

Sadly the rules and resultant toxicity will exist as long as the staff adheres to the 'every guild must agree' mentality. By trying to please everyone you end up pleasing no one. Some kind of majority should be sufficient to make improvements.

[Bach]

There's a need to make it easier to compete, however what you're asking for is just to be given mob without having to compete, I can't see this happening.

Having window limits will naturally move players into small groups, having smaller groups will most likely still outnumber if not match the number of content. Mobs will get killed, mobs will be contested. The mobs still spawns, and requests you to get to it first. It also request you bring enough people to complete the kill.

The 3 bag limit encourages competition.

I believe this is an alright idea if you keep the current 2 party competition theme. Steal Team Versus Everyone else ? (BL - King - Ven). I also think if you let each group stand on there own and not need to have mega partnership they would all have more fun.

The shorter window encourages competition.

This is programming change and I just don't take that into consideration. (Player agreements)

Your suggestion goes against the very spirit of that.

Spirit of what ? please give a bit more context

What you are looking for is instances content.

Nope (Easy answer)

Also calling any guild larger than your a zerg guild shows how biased you are.

Killing a raid target in under 60sec is what I picture as a zerg Guild. I think that's the first time I've said how I define it.. Thanks helping me clear that up. Our guild hasn't killed anything so I am unsure of how it would go.
Maybe we too are a zerg ... idk would need to see.


Again Thanks for your Trolling comments ! very productive!
You picture it wrong.

A zerg guild is a guild that has more player than the encounter it is designed for.

54 is the number of people the raid even have been designed for.

Between 54 an 72 you are within range, above that is zerging.


Suggesting a 48hrs lockout upon killing a raid mob goes against the spirit of competition, killing a single mob shouldn't lock anyone out for 2 days, it's a ridiculous idea.

Lowering the windows and adding a bag limit to key jobs (VP and ST keys) is more than enough to foster healthy competition on green server.

That said I wouldn't be against a quarterly target rotation like they have on blue.

Lastly, calling a troll anyone disagreeing with you doesn't help your argument.

[Erati]

I believe this is an alright idea if you keep the current 2 party competition theme. Steal Team Versus Everyone else ? (BL - King - Ven). I also think if you let each group stand on there own and not need to have mega partnership they would all have more fun.

This already happens, Kingdom has been an active solo entity since before Plane of Sky was released. We raid w 35-60 ish.

I mean this in the nicest way, you should do a bit more research before painting so many guilds w broad strokes as you have.

[Anarke]

I posted this in the UN but I will repost it here as well.

First of all even with there not having been an earthquake for months before Monday every 7d target was still within 48 hours of each other. This is because of math. Even with a 16 hour window on a 7d spawn over time that spawn time is going to normalize right back to when the original spawn time was. You aren’t going to see a dragon that spawned Saturday suddenly drift into Wednesday. So your proposal effectively means every guild can only kill one 7d target a week. For the lower tier targets that small guilds would be going for those mobs could be potentially be up for days and would certainly drift further and further away from the spawn of the more desired targets that are killed quickly every week. As soon as a lesser target drifted past that 48 hour window the bigger guilds would immediately start killing it every week locking out the smaller guilds permanently from that target. So really your proposal doesn’t solve any of the issues and doesn’t allow smaller guilds any long term opportunities.

As far as sky is concerned your proposal doesn’t make a lot of sense there either. Giving every guild a sky slot doesn’t really do much if most guilds can’t clear all of sky anyway. Multiple guilds banding together to try to clear all of sky would make more sense but it’s hard to argue a joint guild raid should get a full sky slot without even knowing if they are capable of clearing the entire zone. You mention so many guilds having sky slots that a single guild only goes to sky every 2 or 3 weeks. So in your proposal 15-20 guilds have sky slots, but less then half of those are even capable of clearing all of sky by themselves. What’s the reasoning for having islands 5-8 up for up to a week at time because guilds that can’t clear them have full sky slots? Sky seems to be working pretty well and there is a process in place for new guilds getting slots.

[Gentry88]

This already happens, Kingdom has been an active solo entity since before Plane of Sky was released. We raid w 35-60 ish.

I mean this in the nicest way, you should do a bit more research before painting so many guilds w broad strokes as you have.

I would agree I'm painting broad. poking ay people personally is not the plan. I have also said if I use any examples it is not any slander to you as a group at all. Some of my Examples may not be painting the exact situation on the ground happing now. but to give comparisons.

Thanks!

[Gentry88]

I posted this in the UN but I will repost it here as well.

First of all even with there not having been an earthquake for months before Monday every 7d target was still within 48 hours of each other. This is because of math. Even with a 16 hour window on a 7d spawn over time that spawn time is going to normalize right back to when the original spawn time was. You aren’t going to see a dragon that spawned Saturday suddenly drift into Wednesday. So your proposal effectively means every guild can only kill one 7d target a week. For the lower tier targets that small guilds would be going for those mobs could be potentially be up for days and would certainly drift further and further away from the spawn of the more desired targets that are killed quickly every week. As soon as a lesser target drifted past that 48 hour window the bigger guilds would immediately start killing it every week locking out the smaller guilds permanently from that target. So really your proposal doesn’t solve any of the issues and doesn’t allow smaller guilds any long term opportunities.

As far as sky is concerned your proposal doesn’t make a lot of sense there either. Giving every guild a sky slot doesn’t really do much if most guilds can’t clear all of sky anyway. Multiple guilds banding together to try to clear all of sky would make more sense but it’s hard to argue a joint guild raid should get a full sky slot without even knowing if they are capable of clearing the entire zone. You mention so many guilds having sky slots that a single guild only goes to sky every 2 or 3 weeks. So in your proposal 15-20 guilds have sky slots, but less then half of those are even capable of clearing all of sky by themselves. What’s the reasoning for having islands 5-8 up for up to a week at time because guilds that can’t clear them have full sky slots? Sky seems to be working pretty well and there is a process in place for new guilds getting slots.


Thanks for your comment, Your assumption is that the guilds will remain the same, and people will not split off into smaller groups. Also, I am not advocating that smaller guilds should have long term opportunities. Like you said after a Earthquake they will get a week or two of opportunities (Time to help learn content and strats) Then they will be back in with the competition. This is not a free hand out (Like OPEN RAIDS are) this is giving windows of opportunity to groups and guilds to learn and build confidence to compete.

Sky is rotated now, not changing the frame work of needing to clear the island 2 weeks to claim the content... same shit, just more people will be rotating. if you wanna partner idea why that wouldn't be a possibility.

[Anarke]

So with all of that being said I would like to address the issue of raiding in general. People are making it too complicated and trying to come up with solutions that are too complicated.

The first thing that needs to be addressed before providing solutions is identifying what is the biggest issue with raiding on green? And the answer is simple. 16 hour windows are the biggest issue with raiding on green. When other guilds are actually prepared for a spawn, whether it’s noble or a 7day target being at the very end of its window then the competition is quite healthy with multiple guilds racing and multiple guilds having killed targets.

So what’s the easiest solution to the 16 hour window problem? Shorter windows sounds good but the big problem with that is that it requires the dev’s to make changes to the code. From my understanding that is very unlikely to happen so solutions should be focused on things that don’t require changes to the code.

The simplest solution I have seen is for raid target spawns to be called and all guilds who want to race given a certain timeframe to mobilize to the target, 10 minutes for example. Then a race is initiated based on a certain number being /randomed. This solution has the benefit of requiring no changes to the code, means any guild big or small can compete, still advantages guilds who can mobilize faster, still requires everyone to race for the target, and still means raid targets have a large 16 hour window and can spawn in different timezones for guilds based in different countries. And best of all? No more socking!

[Bach]

So with all of that being said I would like to address the issue of raiding in general. People are making it too complicated and trying to come up with solutions that are too complicated.

The first thing that needs to be addressed before providing solutions is identifying what is the biggest issue with raiding on green? And the answer is simple. 16 hour windows are the biggest issue with raiding on green. When other guilds are actually prepared for a spawn, whether it’s noble or a 7day target being at the very end of its window then the competition is quite healthy with multiple guilds racing and multiple guilds having killed targets.

So what’s the easiest solution to the 16 hour window problem? Shorter windows sounds good but the big problem with that is that it requires the dev’s to make changes to the code. From my understanding that is very unlikely to happen so solutions should be focused on things that don’t require changes to the code.

The simplest solution I have seen is for raid target spawns to be called and all guilds who want to race given a certain timeframe to mobilize to the target, 10 minutes for example. Then a race is initiated based on a certain number being /randomed. This solution has the benefit of requiring no changes to the code, means any guild big or small can compete, still advantages guilds who can mobilize faster, still requires everyone to race for the target, and still means raid targets have a large 16 hour window and can spawn in different timezones for guilds based in different countries. And best of all? No more socking!
That.

The large window is the main competition stopper.

Add a bag limit to key dropping mobs to avoid ultra competitive guild blocking end zones uncontested and you've got yourself a healthier raid scene.

[Gentry88]

That.

The large window is the main competition stopper.

Add a bag limit to key dropping mobs to avoid ultra competitive guild blocking end zones uncontested and you've got yourself a healthier raid scene.

I understand both of your points. I dont see them reprogramming the game system. but if that was on the table as a opportunity it would open the range of opportunity. Until a GM says we will completely change the Everquest raid spawning system at your request. I am going to assume we need to make PLAYER AGREEMENTS that the player can do without changing the game.

Thanks!

[Bach]

I understand both of your points. I dont see them reprogramming the game system. but if that was on the table as a opportunity it would open the range of opportunity. Until a GM says we will completely change the Everquest raid spawning system at your request. I am going to assume we need to make PLAYER AGREEMENTS that the player can do without changing the game.

Thanks!
I am not sure what you're talking about?

16hrs windows aren't classic, they added it they can remove it.

Same way they added 10mn window on nobles not long ago.

Unless I misunderstood what you were implying.

[magnetaress]

Tldr (entire thread)