The new poopsockers.

[Inconceivable]

The question we are all ignoring is:

Who will become the next ST?

All that has been done is the removal of the top predator in the ecosystem. Now the coyotes or potentially coywolves will move in. The beginning of the "top-down trophic cascade has started." Governments never can properly managed anything...

Does Kingdom become the next top dog and take all the Trak kills creating the exact same scenario? Or do we go full AOC/socialist and have Kingdom handout free loot to everyone even though they put in all the effort to gear, level and kill the mobs?

When will they be eradicated like the wolves of Yellowstone until there is nothing left, and the elk graze the shrubbery down, destroy the river and harm the overall ecosystem?

The only true fix is the reintroduction of wolves.

I for one am happy to receive some free Trak/VP gear. Please twink all my alts before you can gear yourselves. Oh also, please give me VP key components on all my toons, but you need to farm them for me. Just PM when it spawns and let me get there for it then I can log back off. How do I get GM guarantees that I will receive my equal share of the top 1%'s wealth?

[Inconceivable]

In case you don't know the reference to the scientific article

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-scientists-behind-the-viral-how-wolves-change-rivers-video-are-back-and-have-made-a-small-update-to-their-claim-2018-11

[TomisFeline]

in b 4 cringe

[Grumph]

LOL

[Scalem]

The new poop sockers is going to continue to be Seal Team. They will do their best to hold down any worthwhile camp 24/7. Just look at them encouraging members to log on guild bots to sit at VP key camps.

[rewinder47]

Your politics analogy is accurate in the sense that this decision benefits 99% of players.

However where you are incorrect is that, unless a bunch of players quit their jobs in the name of becoming the new ST, we will not see the same levels of poopsocking until ST reforms. This was a pretty surgical removal of cancer on the server

[spikeviking]

Yup.

[Boptop]

New socks same as the old socks.

[Irespectwomen]

Depends, if they do a full on rotation then Venerate will be the first to demand more dragons. If it stays FTE, grab your popcorn

[Teako]

The new poop sockers is going to continue to be Seal Team. They will do their best to hold down any worthwhile camp 24/7. Just look at them encouraging members to log on guild bots to sit at VP key camps.

I genuinely hope staff steps in and enforces the Rule 14 of the Server PnP on Seal Team and permanently disbands them.

14. You may not operate a guild that habitually violates these rules.

Disciplinary issues involving guilds may be addressed with the entire guild. Guilds whose members habitually violate these rules may be issued guild warnings, and can even be permanently disbanded.

[k9quaint]

Rule 14.1 - perma ban leadership accounts

[Attos]

The question we are all ignoring is:

Who will become the next ST?

All that has been done is the removal of the top predator in the ecosystem. Now the coyotes or potentially coywolves will move in. The beginning of the "top-down trophic cascade has started." Governments never can properly managed anything...

Does Kingdom become the next top dog and take all the Trak kills creating the exact same scenario? Or do we go full AOC/socialist and have Kingdom handout free loot to everyone even though they put in all the effort to gear, level and kill the mobs?

When will they be eradicated like the wolves of Yellowstone until there is nothing left, and the elk graze the shrubbery down, destroy the river and harm the overall ecosystem?

The only true fix is the rfeintroduction of wolves.

I for one am happy to receive some free Trak/VP gear. Please twink all my alts before you can gear yourselves. Oh also, please give me VP key components on all my toons, but you need to farm them for me. Just PM when it spawns and let me get there for it then I can log back off. How do I get GM guarantees that I will receive my equal share of the top 1%'s wealth?

Someone clearly doesn't understand what they're referencing at all. Seal Team weren't wolves, and their affect on the server was nothing like the wolves in yellowstone. Also, calling a business insider story a scientific article? Chamon. Don't make references to shit you don't understand, it just makes you look stupid.

Now, I get the point that you're trying to make. You're trying to say that the way Seal Team behaved will be no different than the guild that replaces them, that the 'shape' of the ecosystem won't change. Frankly I don't think that's fair. ST behaved incredibly poorly, I think that yes, one 'most competitive' guild will likely emerge, but I doubt their behavior will be close to as toxic as ST was.

ST leaving the raid scene isn't going to cause a trophic cascade, they weren't keeping the server healthy. They were a fucking cancer, and I don't think anyone outside their ranks and DMO gives a fuck that they're out of the raiding scene. We'll see how they do trying to prema-camp keys (and I'm sure keep other sought after spots perma-camped) goes for them, classic cancerous move.

[k9quaint]

We'll see how they do trying to prema-camp keys (and I'm sure keep other sought after spots perma-camped) goes for them, classic cancerous move.

Mods should put FTE messages on pained soul, rotting skel, and verix.

[Kelika2]

Don't make references to shit you don't understand, it just makes you look stupid.

Please stop pretending humans are good by nature. Once a certain guild gets a certain amount of targets more will move to get targets themselves and so on. Alts are things, more than one account are things, its been 11 or so years. Please stop pretending all of Seal Team is gone. You are less safe now that perma-bans are things because if your friends/guildmates grow too much, you are also liable.

[Local]

Please stop pretending humans are good by nature. Once a certain guild gets a certain amount of targets more will move to get targets themselves and so on. Alts are things, more than one account are things, its been 11 or so years. Please stop pretending all of Seal Team is gone. You are less safe now that perma-bans are things because if your friends/guildmates grow too much, you are also liable.

Yes, "growing too much" is what caused the raid ban.

[Ravager]

I spent all weekend pooping in every sock I have and I still have no dragon loot. How is this supposed to work anyway? Fuck this new age shit.

[Endorra]

It's like an autistic game of thrones

[Tankwipe]

op is stupid next

[Kieel]

op is stupid next

[Attos]

Please stop pretending humans are good by nature. Once a certain guild gets a certain amount of targets more will move to get targets themselves and so on. Alts are things, more than one account are things, its been 11 or so years. Please stop pretending all of Seal Team is gone. You are less safe now that perma-bans are things because if your friends/guildmates grow too much, you are also liable.

Not pretending all the issues will go away. I'm not really worried about getting perm-banned because if my guild ever tried to pull the kind of shit ST was pulling routinely, I wouldn't be in that guild anymore.

You should also understand, that plenty of humans are good by nature. We had some incredibly toxic members of our community banned from the raid scene. There are plenty of decent people who were in ST, it's just that they were willing to deal with the BS folks because dragons.

While I'm sure there will continue to be drama in the raiding scene, being rid of ST is a boon to everyone who participates from here on out.

[cannobeers3]

Top predator? More like child predator.

[Littul Jonn]

I literally posed this same question in one of the 50 new topics posted by Bach. Just because ST is banned doesn’t mean the problem is gone. Without progression there’s only room for 1-2 guilds at the top. So who’s it gonna be?

[Inconceivable]

The new poop sockers is going to continue to be Seal Team. They will do their best to hold down any worthwhile camp 24/7. Just look at them encouraging members to log on guild bots to sit at VP key camps.

Well... isn't this exactly what Venerate/Castle did for Crypt camp? They locked the entire camp down for like 1 month.

But the moment ST does this it is frowned upon?

Playing devils advocate here, but... doesn't this seem a little hypocritical?

[Kelika2]

Not pretending all the issues will go away.

The problems didnt start to go away until late Planes of Power when instances were introduced. Loot, targets, long respawns. It may take a few months for a new guild to raise to the top but human nature will take over again where one or two guilds get all the targets because they have the most dedicated members to make it happen.

Sucks, but classic. And the theme of the thread is who is are be it for to are. Be.

[Kelika2]

And WoW decreasing the population

[Sabin76]

Well... isn't this exactly what Venerate/Castle did for Crypt camp? They locked the entire camp down for like 1 month.

But the moment ST does this it is frowned upon?

Playing devils advocate here, but... doesn't this seem a little hypocritical?

Not that I condone what Venerate did, but there is a difference between being forced to pay for an item (instead of camping it yourself), and being locked out of an entire zone.

[JDFriend99]

We need a new game. This ones stale

[Shinko]

Maybe for you

[Dolalin]

Governments never can properly managed anything...

Civilization was built on government and bureaucracy. Bureaucracy maintained the Roman Empire for hundreds of years. Bureaucracy won the world wars. American bureaucracy beat Soviet bureaucracy in the Cold War.

Libertarianism is anarchy. The glorification of it in American culture is a Reaganite phenomenon. The rot started there.

[OuterChimp]

I started to play Star Trek Fleet Command on my ipad. It's pretty cool.

[Mesocyclone]

I dont raid. Dont group. Dont care about guilds and their bs. Dont care about end game no drop gear. I solo rares. I could care less why they are suspended or who will follow in their footsteps - doesnt affect me.

[Inconceivable]

Not that I condone what Venerate did, but there is a difference between being forced to pay for an item (instead of camping it yourself), and being locked out of an entire zone.

No, look at the quote from Scalem. He is whining about ST now camping mobs which are of value in zones, such as Crypt, NOT Trak in this context. So, Venerate/Castle did the exact same thing, but, people don't care.

The moment ST gets removed from raiding and they go for valuable gearing camps and do the exact same thing as TWO other guilds prior to them, they are called out. It is ironic.

Venerate/Castle should be banned from camping Crypt. Or, maybe they can only stay there until they kill 3 heiro's, and then they must leave or give another group a chance to FTE the 3rd heiro.

[Scalem]

I dont raid. Dont group. Dont care about guilds and their bs. Dont care about end game no drop gear. I solo rares. I could care less why they are suspended or who will follow in their footsteps - doesnt affect me.

Well you should try caring less.

[Scalem]

Well... isn't this exactly what Venerate/Castle did for Crypt camp? They locked the entire camp down for like 1 month.

But the moment ST does this it is frowned upon?

Playing devils advocate here, but... doesn't this seem a little hypocritical?

I think what they did was wrong too. I’m not talking about them right now though. I think any entity that specifically works to lock anyone else out of something for as long as they can has no place on Blue or Green.

[Scalem]

No, look at the quote from Scalem. He is whining about ST now camping mobs which are of value in zones, such as Crypt, NOT Trak in this context. So, Venerate/Castle did the exact same thing, but, people don't care.

The moment ST gets removed from raiding and they go for valuable gearing camps and do the exact same thing as TWO other guilds prior to them, they are called out. It is ironic.

Venerate/Castle should be banned from camping Crypt. Or, maybe they can only stay there until they kill 3 heiro's, and then they must leave or give another group a chance to FTE the 3rd heiro.

No I’m talking about ST specifically having people log on guild alt accounts to sit in camps. They are actively encouraging people to log on other accounts to continue to deny content they otherwise couldn’t block out on their mains.

[Sabin76]

No, look at the quote from Scalem. He is whining about ST now camping mobs which are of value in zones, such as Crypt, NOT Trak in this context. So, Venerate/Castle did the exact same thing, but, people don't care.

The moment ST gets removed from raiding and they go for valuable gearing camps and do the exact same thing as TWO other guilds prior to them, they are called out. It is ironic.

Venerate/Castle should be banned from camping Crypt. Or, maybe they can only stay there until they kill 3 heiro's, and then they must leave or give another group a chance to FTE the 3rd heiro.

You might want to re-read the post... he wasn't talking about heiro, he was talking about VP key pieces.

[hightension]

Well... isn't this exactly what Venerate/Castle did for Crypt camp? They locked the entire camp down for like 1 month.

But the moment ST does this it is frowned upon?

Playing devils advocate here, but... doesn't this seem a little hypocritical?

I don't feel like playing this whataboutism strategy is really going to end well for defending ST

[Local]

I don't feel like playing this whataboutism strategy is really going to end well for defending ST

I dunno, they've been making a lot of brilliant strategic maneuvers of late that have really been paying dividends.

[plzrelax]

Haven’t most of the raiding guilds been pretty been pretty much the same group of people over the years? Just under different characters and tags?

[Ravager]

Haven’t most of the raiding guilds been pretty been pretty much the same group of people over the years? Just under different characters and tags?

Bingo. It's why raiding here has always been shit.

[G13]

Civilization was built on government and bureaucracy. Bureaucracy maintained the Roman Empire for hundreds of years. Bureaucracy won the world wars. American bureaucracy beat Soviet bureaucracy in the Cold War.

Libertarianism is anarchy. The glorification of it in American culture is a Reaganite phenomenon. The rot started there.

Probably the most ignorant post I've ever seen on these boards

[Boptop]

Weber calls bureaucracy the iron cage.

[plzrelax]

Bingo. It's why raiding here has always been shit.

Then, how is a ban like this supposed to be effective if all the same people are just likely going to make new accounts and do all of this over again?

[Ravager]

Then, how is a ban like this supposed to be effective if all the same people are just likely going to make new accounts and do all of this over again?

I didn't say it'd be effective nor do I expect it to be.

[plzrelax]

Well yeah...

[Dolalin]

Bureaucracy is organization and coordination. It's the only way yet devised to run a country at scale, and for all its flaws, it works.

For the intricate and complex Roman bureaucracy which persisted between emperors, this thread provides an accessible overview:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/46w392/the_late_roman_bureaucracy

For the 20th century, it suffices to look at how the militaries of the great powers were run. Every single one that proved successful was a bureaucratic machine.

Here's a brief defence of military bureaucracy from an officer and instructor at West Point:

https://mwi.usma.edu/defense-military-bureaucrat/

So since this is R&F, might I suggest that if you genuinely think bureaucracy is anything but essential and necessary, you have your head up your arse.

[G13]

Bureaucracy is organization and coordination. It's the only way yet devised to run a country at scale, and for all its flaws, it works.

For the intricate and complex Roman bureaucracy which persisted between emperors, this thread provides an accessible overview:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/46w392/the_late_roman_bureaucracy

For the 20th century, it suffices to look at how the militaries of the great powers were run. Every single one that proved successful was a bureaucratic machine.

Here's a brief defence of military bureaucracy from an officer and instructor at West Point:

https://mwi.usma.edu/defense-military-bureaucrat/

So since this is R&F, might I suggest that if you genuinely think bureaucracy is anything but essential and necessary, you have your head up your arse.

I'll remember that the next time I read about how The Pentagon paid 10K for a toilet seat on an airplane

[Dolalin]

You should. If you can find a better way to run a trillion dollar military, let's hear it.

[G13]

You should. If you can find a better way to run a trillion dollar military, let's hear it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNAgFhh1ji4