Why do guilds use DKP?

[Evia]

Serious question? Wouldn’t it be more fun/exciting/fair to continue to use the /random function the game provides vs a player made point system? This is one of the turn off o have with joining a raiding guild. It’s already stressful enough trying to land targets and not get into a lawyerquest situation, why add a complex currency system to add to the stress? I get the concept of dkp...ppl in the guild who track or do other unseen assistance to the guild should get some sort of incentive vs a casual who shows up for one raid a month, but shouldn’t we seriously reconsider the use of dkp and it’s function?

[Aadill]

Serious question? Wouldn’t it be more fun/exciting/fair to continue to use the currency system that the game provides vs using /random? This is one of the turn off o have with joining a casual guild. It’s already stressful enough trying to land targets and not get into a lawyerquest situation, why add a complex /random system to add to the stress? I get the concept of /random...a casual who shows up for one raid a month should get more incentive than ppl in the guild who farm plat but shouldn’t we seriously reconsider the use of /random and it's function? Why not just have the person who wants the loot give money to the guild?

[magnetaress]

https://i.imgur.com/8r6GW9N.jpg

[karadin]

DKP isn't complex. Time you spent doing things is quantified into a currency, and you buy things with that currency.

How is a /roll more fair/fun? I don't get that.

[Nexii]

Random favors those with the worst gear. And people will roll whether they need it or not.

DKP isn't perfect but it's way better than random or loot council

[Cassawary]

Guilds are a scam

[Danth]

Fundamentally the primary purpose is those types of guilds want to motivate people to do stuff they'd otherwise not want to do. Secondary reason is because a lot of higher-end players see their own guildmates as their enemies in their quest for pixels and want a predictable system that directly pays them for their work rather than trusting random rolls to average out over time. Since this type of currency immediately becomes worthless as soon as a player deguilds, it also provides a guild huge leverage in terms of manipulating members who don't want to lose their perceived investment.

I join no such guild and immediately disband from any which converts to such a system. Video games are supposed to be for fun, not a crappy long-hours job that pays worthless company scrip.

Danth

[Tunabros]

long time raider in guild: grinds out and always shows up on time and excellent performance

new player who just joined guild yesterday: no experience and a newb

>cool item drops

>hey guys lets random instead of DKP

new player gets it

>ez clap

[Evia]

I never said dkp was complex, only that I don’t understand why universally accepted and used. I’m not saying /random is necessarily the answer either but I find it odd nobody wants to question the narrative. I think dkp could be retooled or revamped completely.


@nexii doesn’t /random favor everybody?

I like the concept of dkp, as it factors in assistance to the guild through other means like tracking and such, but it adds an unnecessary component to the game. I’m just saying couldn’t there be a system that didn’t need to add a new system?

[Duckwalk]

DKP systems help mitigate the rng inherent in the game and consistenly reward those who contribute the most to the guild.

For example, if after you killing a dragon you got a drop down menu of a target's entire loot table and were able to choose specific items then over time /random would roughly approximate contribution / attendance.

But since mobs have unique loot tables and what they drop is randomly generated, there is very little way of encouraging the system to consistently reward effort. The other option is to loot council items but that has its own issues.

[Evia]

DKP systems help mitigate the rng inherent in the game and consistenly reward those who contribute the most to the guild.

For example, if after you killing a dragon you got a drop down menu of a target's entire loot table and were able to choose specific items then over time /random would roughly approximate contribution / attendance.

But since mobs have unique loot tables and what they drop is randomly generated, there is very little way of encouraging the system to consistently reward effort. The other option is to loot council items but that has its own issues.


Yeah but can’t dkp be manipulated or used in a negative way? Kinda like Danth explained? Why can’t we be ok with a random dude who showed up the a raid, participated in said raid 100% and helped, and won an item fair and square with /random? Why do we feel the need to min/max and Micromanage loot? Isn’t it equally as fair to say every member in the current raid helped bring the mob down, thus securing this loot, and all who helped and can use can /random? Idk but his seems to make more sense than this weird outside currency system.

[Nexii]

Fundamentally the primary purpose is those types of guilds want to motivate people to do stuff they'd otherwise not want to do. Secondary reason is because a lot of higher-end players see their own guildmates as their enemies in their quest for pixels and want a predictable system that directly pays them for their work rather than trusting random rolls to average out over time. Since this type of currency immediately becomes worthless as soon as a player deguilds, it also provides a guild huge leverage in terms of manipulating members who don't want to lose their perceived investment.

I join no such guild and immediately disband from any which converts to such a system. Video games are supposed to be for fun, not a crappy long-hours job that pays worthless company scrip.

Danth

DKP pays well, as long as you don't join a guild shortly before its demise. If you join early you get items very cheap. There have been many 10-20% RA monks who save up and get Gharn's.

The argument about DKP warping the control and guild environment is a valid one. Loot council is even worse in this respect.

Allowing everyone to roll on all their alts isn't really fair to players invested in a main either. Some kind of system to prioritize mains or pick your preferred items would be good in lieu of DKP.

[Nexii]

Yeah but can’t dkp be manipulated or used in a negative way? Kinda like Danth explained? Why can’t we be ok with a random dude who showed up the a raid, participated in said raid 100% and helped, and won an item fair and square with /random? Why do we feel the need to min/max and Micromanage loot? Isn’t it equally as fair to say every member in the current raid helped bring the mob down, thus securing this loot, and all who helped and can use can /random? Idk but his seems to make more sense than this weird outside currency system.

One issue is that people will only show up to help when they can benefit/roll.

[strongNpretty]

The one time i accumulated a mass amount of DKP was with Blackheart Pirates and Hydra Alliance.. Guild got dumped, Leader got banned, guild fell apart.. Never got to spend a single fucking point... Haven't stepped foot in a raid zone or hit a raid target since...

[strongNpretty]

PS- not against or for them.. Just sucks when imaginary money on a spreadsheet goes poof one day...

[Evia]

If I made a guild, this would be my loot rules.

If you participated on a raid and an item dropped you could use, you can /random.

If you did extra work like tracking or cothing guild mates, you get a guild point. You can use one guild point on any roll to give yourself +10 to the roll. You can only use one guild point per roll.

Hang out with my bro’s and kill raid targets and have fun. Chill and cool normal eq vibes.

[Nexii]

Split platinum bids would be interesting. PUGs have done it in the past for Vindi and HoT, why not all raid content? This way at least you walk away with platinum which can be used in your next endeavor

[Evia]

Split platinum bids would be interesting. PUGs have done it in the past for Vindi and HoT, why not all raid content? This way at least you walk away with platinum which can be used in your next endeavor

Now we’re thinking. Let us keep thinking outside the box.

[Duckwalk]

Video games are supposed to be for fun, not a crappy long-hours job
Danth

This is really the problem. Scarcity of resources in the form of 3-7 day respawns with large windows means that the hours people are putting in to have even a chance at these items is equivalent to a job. Add in the variablity of large loot tables dropping 20% of the table at a time the investment grows even larger.

If the raid scene had a fraction of the popluation or multiple times more content then im sure youd see less emphasis on dkp systems. There are multiple guilds that use DKP to dole out SS quest armor while conversely its so much more common and available in other guilds that it goes to random.

[Duckwalk]

But the reality is that for most of the raid tier loot poeple want to see a more consistent return on their effort.

[whyyoukickmydog]

So imagine this scenario. You play a monk and have been trying for a Gharn's for years. Some monk that joined yesterday attends his first Vulak raid, and win's a Gharn's isntead of you because RNGeeezus blessed his roll that day.

How would you feel?

[strongNpretty]

So imagine this scenario. You play a monk and have been trying for a Gharn's for years. Some monk that joined yesterday attends his first Vulak raid, and win's a Gharn's isntead of you because RNGeeezus blessed his roll that day.

How would you feel?

The same as if i've been in a LCY group for 3 hours, player leaves, new player joins, T staff drops, new player rolls. Wins..

[karadin]

why add a complex currency system to add to the stress?

I never said dkp was complex

You literally said those words...

[Daloon]

It eliminates favoritism and conspiracies of favoritism.

[Cassawary]

It eliminates favoritism and conspiracies of favoritism.

Who does dkp favor?

[reznor_]

long time raider in guild: grinds out and always shows up on time and excellent performance

new player who just joined guild yesterday: no experience and a newb

>cool item drops

>hey guys lets random instead of DKP

new player gets it

>ez clap

QED. You want to random on stuff that takes a combined effort, go fuck off to diablo 3 or WoW. Even when I didn't play as much (thanks Covid) I felt this way. I was a 40% raider and saved up my dkp to buy stuff. The people who put in the effort in (the high attendance folks) deserve the items they buy with their dkp, because it takes work!

Re: the argument about losing a gharns vs losing a t-staff, not even in the same order of magnitude, though I understand the sentiment. Any chucklefuck can get in LCY. Vulak in this meta is a cruel master.

[Evia]

You literally said those words...

Ok, yeah. What I meant is it adds a complexity that is not needed not that the system itself is a complex one.

[arsenalpow]

Every loot system is bad in some fashion.

Seen a lot of guilds on WoW doing things like soft reserves with prio points and EP/GP which seem pretty fair.

[whyyoukickmydog]

They don't even random in WoW.....and there's a reason they don't, all the best players would nope the F out of there.

[reznor_]

I agree. No system is perfect, but DKP seems relatively balanced as long as the implementors can keep a handle on inflation and try to match incoming vs. outgoing dkp.

OP, you might want to consider joining TSS. They use a slightly modified /random on their raid loot.

[Evia]

All these people saying that having a rando show up and win an item over you,when you put x amount of hours in are missing the point I’m trying to make. If that rando worked just as hard as you did to bring that mob down, shouldn’t he have equal rights to loot? Why are we getting complex and factoring in all the raids YOU have done and all the time YOU put that in that really have nothing to do with the CURRENT raid and CURRENT effort provided by the guild force. Imho everyone who killed the mob gets to roll. The /random gods dictated my life from 1-60 why should this change now?

[whyyoukickmydog]

Can't even win a Scout roll, imagine rolling against 100 instead of 20-30.

[whyyoukickmydog]

All these people saying that having a rando show up and win an item over you,when you put x amount of hours in are missing the point I’m trying to make. If that rando worked just as hard as you did to bring that mob down, shouldn’t he have equal rights to loot? Why are we getting complex and factoring in all the raids YOU have done and all the time YOU put that in that really have nothing to do with the CURRENT raid and CURRENT effort provided by the guild force. Imho everyone who killed the mob gets to roll. The /random gods dictated my life from 1-60 why should this change now?

But fact of the matter is that they DIDN'T work as hard as everyone else to win loot.

[Evia]

But fact of the matter is that they DIDN'T work as hard as everyone else to win loot.

Fact of the matter is they actually DID! 5ats what’s so hilarious to me.
They brought the mob from 100% to 0%. This is fact. This is logic.
Please, change my mind. :)

[Tunabros]

QED. You want to random on stuff that takes a combined effort, go fuck off to diablo 3 or WoW. Even when I didn't play as much (thanks Covid) I felt this way. I was a 40% raider and saved up my dkp to buy stuff. The people who put in the effort in (the high attendance folks) deserve the items they buy with their dkp, because it takes work!

Re: the argument about losing a gharns vs losing a t-staff, not even in the same order of magnitude, though I understand the sentiment. Any chucklefuck can get in LCY. Vulak in this meta is a cruel master.

which is why DKP is the "best" system for loot

doing randoms is just a middle finger to dedicated players and loot council is way too

controversial

[magnetaress]

A combo of DKP and/random is best were u use ur DKP to buy a /random on items with set prices.

Surprised u have not figured that out yet.

[Evia]

Idk why guilds factor in other raids I guess is what I’m saying.


If you show up and participate and help bring a mob down idk why you can’t roll on that mobs loot. Instead we get inspector gadget and rocket science operator and start factoring in all the raids you’ve ever attended with all the loot you’ve already gotten and it makes no sense to me. Seems overly complex for a game that is sopposed to be fun.

[Danth]

Ok, yeah. What I meant is it adds a complexity that is not needed not that the system itself is a complex one.

The complexity isn't needed but the manipulation is. Most folks don't enjoy raiding all that well and won't keep going unless "motivated." You see all the factors I discussed before already on display in this thread and it's still new.

[Cassawary]

it's meant to transfer pixels that would otherwise go to guild members, to officers

[whyyoukickmydog]

Fact of the matter is they actually DID! 5ats what’s so hilarious to me.
They brought the mob from 100% to 0%. This is fact. This is logic.
Please, change my mind. :)

Nobody is trying to change your mind. Nobody here agrees with your stance, and it's obvious you are new to P99 raiding, so really, you're just trolling for attention.

[karadin]

Fact of the matter is they actually DID! 5ats what’s so hilarious to me.
They brought the mob from 100% to 0%. This is fact. This is logic.
Please, change my mind. :)

You're looking at a single encounter in a vacuum if you take this point of view. Sure, for pickup groups/raids that works really well and it's the reason that /random is used for things like HoT or Fungi camp. This doesn't work for guilds which kill over time. The guild I am in has killed/attempted 200 raid targets in the last 30 days. That's 7 per day on average. The only way you are going to achieve any system of fairness that rewards people for the time they put in when killing that many mobs is with a currency like DKP. Remember, things like tracking, racing, RTE, etc. are all areas in which people put time in to kill mobs. Showing up and killing a mob is by far the easiest and least time intensive part of raiding. This is EQ after all and 90%+ of a raid just needs to stand there and press a button or two.

[Nexii]

Idk why guilds factor in other raids I guess is what I’m saying.


If you show up and participate and help bring a mob down idk why you can’t roll on that mobs loot. Instead we get inspector gadget and rocket science operator and start factoring in all the raids you’ve ever attended with all the loot you’ve already gotten and it makes no sense to me. Seems overly complex for a game that is sopposed to be fun.

Because there would be no incentive to show up to mobs that don't benefit you. Basically I'd just log on for Vulak which isn't very helpful for my guild.

[Danth]

Because there would be no incentive to show up to mobs that don't benefit you. Basically I'd just log on for Vulak which isn't very helpful for my guild.

No incentive? What about fun? Fun in a video game, is that an odd notion? Why is that not incentive enough? It's incentive enough for me to keep playing my Shadow Knight in the stuff I do even though I've obtained exactly one new item on it the past three years.

...It's almost like raiding isn't much fun to most people and games sticking the shiniest carrots in the worst part of the game is damned near sadistic game design.

Danth

[Nexii]

No incentive? What about fun? Fun in a video game, is that an odd notion? Why is that not incentive enough? It's incentive enough for me to keep playing my Shadow Knight in the stuff I do even though I've obtained exactly one new item on it the past three years.

...It's almost like raiding isn't much fun to most people and games sticking the shiniest carrots in the worst part of the game is damned near sadistic game design.

Danth

Raiding is fun under the right paradigm

[whyyoukickmydog]

No incentive? What about fun? Fun in a video game, is that an odd notion? Why is that not incentive enough? It's incentive enough for me to keep playing my Shadow Knight in the stuff I do even though I've obtained exactly one new item on it the past three years.

...It's almost like raiding isn't much fun to most people and games sticking the shiniest carrots in the worst part of the game is damned near sadistic game design.

Danth

We all have our own ideas on what is fun. You are not special.

[Aadill]

Biggest reason to not allow randoms:
https://wiki.project1999.com/Vyemm's_Fang?redirected_from_http=1

[strongNpretty]

The fact some of you have raided so much you have nothing else to raid on P99 is fucking cray ya'll. That's fuckin cray.. 5 years i been here.. I've seen Fear once, Hate twice. And that dragon in Seb once.. And plane of air way too much cause- Blackheart pirates..

[strongNpretty]

The fact some of you have raided so much you have nothing else to raid on P99 is fucking cray ya'll. That's fuckin cray.. 5 years i been here.. I've seen Fear once, Hate twice. And that dragon in Seb once.. And plane of air way too much cause- Blackheart pirates..

Like you only need to raid 1 dragon cause you have beat the rest of P99?! What... the... fuuuuuuuug....

[Aadill]

The fact some of you have raided so much you have nothing else to raid on P99 is fucking cray ya'll. That's fuckin cray.. 5 years i been here.. I've seen Fear once, Hate twice. And that dragon in Seb once.. And plane of air way too much cause- Blackheart pirates..

Hate and ring war is where I reliably get back any lost XP from dying on other raids.

[Zekayy]

because someone could be in the guild a year and be your top raider and try to get an epic or piece they want, and then a mob pops someone logs on that hasn't logged on in 6 months or one that just joined and wins the random its a slap in the face of your main tank or main cleric or people that have been there awhile thats why the /random situation is shit verus dkp do not @ me

[Zekayy]

because someone could be in the guild a year and be your top raider and try to get an epic or piece they want, and then a mob pops someone logs on that hasn't logged on in 6 months or one that just joined and wins the random its a slap in the face of your main tank or main cleric or people that have been there awhile thats why the /random situation is shit verus dkp do not @ me

this is the /thread

[Evia]

Nobody is trying to change your mind. Nobody here agrees with your stance, and it's obvious you are new to P99 raiding, so really, you're just trolling for attention.

Not trolling, this is a genuine question of mine. I like a lot of the responses I'm getting on both sides of the discussion. Im just trying to understand why it's the standard adopted loot process. (Shrugs)

[turbosilk]

I never said dkp was complex, only that I don’t understand why universally accepted and used. I’m not saying /random is necessarily the answer either but I find it odd nobody wants to question the narrative. I think dkp could be retooled or revamped completely.


@nexii doesn’t /random favor everybody?

I like the concept of dkp, as it factors in assistance to the guild through other means like tracking and such, but it adds an unnecessary component to the game. I’m just saying couldn’t there be a system that didn’t need to add a new system?

Because DKP is a merit based system. This is a difficult concept for more and more people to understand.

[Boptop]

It helps reduce membership complaining

[pogs4ever]

guilds are a scam for the officers to get more pixels. #stopthesteal

[Littul Jonn]

How have you guys let this thread go on for 6 pages? It’s real simple, here’s a scenario;
- Your guild calls Sevalak spawn let’s get him!
- You play a paladin so you want his loot
- He doesn’t drop shit for anything else so none of your clerics, warriors, monks etc log in

Good luck incentivizing anyone to show up for raid mobs they don’t need drops from

[Jimjam]

From a behavioural perspective dkp is operant conditioning. Each time you attend a raid you receive a reward, which encourages that behaviour to be repeated (see skinners rats).

[Fammaden]

From a behavioural perspective dkp is operant conditioning. Each time you attend a raid you receive a reward, which encourages that behaviour to be repeated (see skinners rats).

Yeah, and its not a bad thing.

When you have rewards that are highly desirable and also suffer from scarcity, people in general act like assholes. They are selfish, ruthless, and irrational in the pursuit of the scarce reward.

DKP is a way of channeling all that selfishness into behavior that benefits the community (guild) unit as a whole. If you're going to regularly raid high end content in an MMO, some form of a token economy like this has proven to be the most sensible approach for literally the entire history of the genre.

This is why loot council is seen as something only for tight knit small groups of people. If you have a smaller community who agrees on a common goal and mostly knows each other well and operate with mutual respect, then you can just award loot based on a form of "need" that meets both the needs of individuals and the group. The bigger a guild gets the more clique-y and impersonal it becomes and then requires a more objective and transparent approach to distributing the prizes, or everyone will start to hate and distrust each other and slowly leave for a guild that does DKP.

In Everquest, you need numbers. While many mobs CAN be killed with lower numbers, the reality of bagging them consistently and repeatedly tends to require bigger rosters, so loot council for our purposes is out.

The failures of using RNG, aka the game's own /random roll system, have been well documented in the thread and really should be self-evident to anyone who has played enough to be posting on this forum.

If raiding isn't something you're interested in doing, that's perfectly understandable. But after twenty plus years I don't know how people can't recognize WHY dkp is the default approach to distributing raid loot. But I think OP is trolling.

[druidbob]

How have you guys let this thread go on for 6 pages? It’s real simple, here’s a scenario;
- Your guild calls Sevalak spawn let’s get him!
- You play a paladin so you want his loot
- He doesn’t drop shit for anything else so none of your clerics, warriors, monks etc log in

Good luck incentivizing anyone to show up for raid mobs they don’t need drops from

Does no one show up because they want to kill a dragon? Isn't that the whole "fun" part of the game, killing big monsters with your guildmates? I dunno maybe my casual scum is showing, but people should raid because they enjoy raiding. And perhaps a guild shouldn't go out of their way to develop a loot system that caters to people who would not even log in for a raid unless it directly benefits them.

[Vaye]

Does no one show up because they want to kill a dragon? Isn't that the whole "fun" part of the game, killing big monsters with your guildmates? I dunno maybe my casual scum is showing, but people should raid because they enjoy raiding. And perhaps a guild shouldn't go out of their way to develop a loot system that caters to people who would not even log in for a raid unless it directly benefits them.

The problem stems from having guilds that are too big. Being apart of a zerg force that trivializes content sounds pretty boring to me which is why I've never joined a zerg guild. People do indeed seem to forget that this is a GAME and is supposed to be fun. They're too busy trying to impress their 13-year-old selves with their pixel gains and treating the game like a damn job to compensate for something.

A small guild raiding where people depend on you for your role and you're actually expected to play the game is what's fun for me. Fun should always be the goal, not pixels. So it doesn't really matter what ends up dropping or how "fair" it is that one person got an item over another, especially if they're a friend and a solid guildie--you should be happy they are progressing, and satisfied you had fun and your teamwork paid off.

If you have a situation where people don't come to raids unless it benefits them, then you have a shitty guild with trash people, but that's expected in big guilds where ppl don't really care about each other and are just in it for the loot. I have respect for Savage's old system where people had to duel for drops. The better player wins. Seems fair to me.

Hope this clears things up.

[Littul Jonn]

Does no one show up because they want to kill a dragon? Isn't that the whole "fun" part of the game, killing big monsters with your guildmates? I dunno maybe my casual scum is showing, but people should raid because they enjoy raiding. And perhaps a guild shouldn't go out of their way to develop a loot system that caters to people who would not even log in for a raid unless it directly benefits them.

lol give it a try! Put a /random loot system in place in your guild and see how many people show up to kill bosses they don't need loot from. These dragons have been on farm for the past 5 years so maybe your first kill on a tough dragon was exciting, but will it get your main tank or 3 extra clerics out of bed at 4am on a Tuesday if they don't get paid in some form of reward? Probably not.

Fun is a matter of opinion though so if you have a guild full of people who all enjoy the game the same way then awesome :)

[Nexii]

The problem stems from having guilds that are too big. Being apart of a zerg force that trivializes content sounds pretty boring to me which is why I've never joined a zerg guild. People do indeed seem to forget that this is a GAME and is supposed to be fun. They're too busy trying to impress their 13-year-old selves with their pixel gains and treating the game like a damn job to compensate for something.

A small guild raiding where people depend on you for your role and you're actually expected to play the game is what's fun for me. Fun should always be the goal, not pixels. So it doesn't really matter what ends up dropping or how "fair" it is that one person got an item over another, especially if they're a friend and a solid guildie--you should be happy they are progressing, and satisfied you had fun and your teamwork paid off.

If you have a situation where people don't come to raids unless it benefits them, then you have a shitty guild with trash people, but that's expected in big guilds where ppl don't really care about each other and are just in it for the loot. I have respect for Savage's old system where people had to duel for drops. The better player wins. Seems fair to me.

Hope this clears things up.

If only the meta allowed for small guilds. Agree with the sentiment though Rustle in 2017 was the most fun I had on P99.

[Littul Jonn]

If only the meta allowed for small guilds. Agree with the sentiment though Rustle in 2017 was the most fun I had on P99.

QFT!

UNROOT THE DRAGONS! :D :D :D

[Nexii]

QFT!

UNROOT THE DRAGONS! :D :D :D

Or bring back exclusive lockouts...

[Knuckle]

Serious question? Wouldn’t it be more fun/exciting/fair to continue to use the /random function the game provides vs a player made point system? This is one of the turn off o have with joining a raiding guild. It’s already stressful enough trying to land targets and not get into a lawyerquest situation, why add a complex currency system to add to the stress? I get the concept of dkp...ppl in the guild who track or do other unseen assistance to the guild should get some sort of incentive vs a casual who shows up for one raid a month, but shouldn’t we seriously reconsider the use of dkp and it’s function?

People put in more time than others and dont want to be subjected to random joe showing up once a month and spitting out a 99 on a /random. Guilds need the warm body regulars to be rewarded for their extra time, DKP provides a built in additional 'reward' toward their pixel goals.

I am a super casual player, outside observation.

[Nexii]

Random on everything would be fine if you could sell loot rights.

[Knuckle]

People put in more time than others and dont want to be subjected to random joe showing up once a month and spitting out a 99 on a /random. Guilds need the warm body regulars to be rewarded for their extra time, DKP provides a built in additional 'reward' toward their pixel goals.

I am a super casual player, outside observation.

Since I can't edit, a super important secondary reason that 100% is why DKP is in place, is to get people to show up for raids where there is nothing for them to win or they already got the piece they wanted. Your building up points towards a future raid, creating delayed gratification to incentivize the warm bodies and helping keep your numbers up.

I also understand a lot of people raid to be social and help their pals out, that isn't a guaranteed thing to occur with 40+ elf sim pixel hunters on a daily/weekly/monthly basis.

[apathe]

Does no one show up because they want to kill a dragon? Isn't that the whole "fun" part of the game, killing big monsters with your guildmates? I dunno maybe my casual scum is showing, but people should raid because they enjoy raiding. And perhaps a guild shouldn't go out of their way to develop a loot system that caters to people who would not even log in for a raid unless it directly benefits them.
The logic collapses when you consider there is a substantial amount of effort required outside of just showing up and participating in an engage in order to contest and kill a target. Without DKP, you put the majority of the burden on a select few willing to dedicate time and energy above and beyond with minimal to zero reward. Showing up for the kill is only a portion of the requirement.

Tracking, racing, farming consumables, etc.

E.g. Statue race in Kael requires tracking and sitting at a race line for hours on end. At a moment's notice, racers need to be able to run for the Statue. In order to be competitive, it's basically a requirement to practice the race in addition to participating. Even with DKP as an incentive, most guilds have difficulty finding a diverse set of members will to go through the effort.

Most of the rest just have to be ready to log in and participate in the kill.

Even the most laid back, generous, and good willed will eventually grow tired of what amounts to dedicating vast amounts of their time for zero return. Even if they did it for their friends, guilds see a lot of players show up once a blue moon, leave the guild or even just disappear completely. Especially so in the larger guilds.

[Moerne]

All these people saying that having a rando show up and win an item over you,when you put x amount of hours in are missing the point I’m trying to make. If that rando worked just as hard as you did to bring that mob down, shouldn’t he have equal rights to loot? Why are we getting complex and factoring in all the raids YOU have done and all the time YOU put that in that really have nothing to do with the CURRENT raid and CURRENT effort provided by the guild force. Imho everyone who killed the mob gets to roll. The /random gods dictated my life from 1-60 why should this change now?

Your assumption here is wrong. The issue is that the rando does NOT work as hard to bring that *one particular mob* down. In a competitive raid environment, that mob doesn't die without people tracking it (which the rando didn't do). That mob doesn't die without DA idols and aggro-clickies to bring the pull in and get it stable (which the rando didn't farm). That mob doesn't die without raid leaders and class leaders stepping up to organize heal chains, tank orders, bump lists, assign train-away roles, etc. (which the rando isn't organizing). That mob might not die without RTE and race line team waiting (which the rando isn't doing). That mob doesn't die without a lot of hours of theory-crafting, and testing of strats on test and P99, practice sessions, etc. (which the rando didn't particpate in).

End game raiding is not just as simple as show up, kill a mob, get some loot.

[magnetaress]

do you think this is just a game?

[Littul Jonn]

https://youtu.be/6DGNZnfKYnU

[Phatez]

DKP is an inferior and archaic loot system. Loot list is the way.

[DMN]

I think when a guild is still in its infancy they should use a pure loot council. Once they have a solid bedrock of key classes geared well enough I'd switch over to a suicide sort of system. Attrition is always going to occur and no one wants to join a guild where everyone else on it has inflated DKP. Sure, you might be able to "buy" new additions with free DKP, but then you are just doing a poor imitation of a loot council and potentially annoying members you already have demonstrable need to retain.

[Evia]

Random on everything would be fine if you could sell loot rights.

I actually really like this idea. It utilizes the games /random system and will give everyone incentive all the time to attend raids.

[Evia]

Your assumption here is wrong. The issue is that the rando does NOT work as hard to bring that *one particular mob* down. In a competitive raid environment, that mob doesn't die without people tracking it (which the rando didn't do). That mob doesn't die without DA idols and aggro-clickies to bring the pull in and get it stable (which the rando didn't farm). That mob doesn't die without raid leaders and class leaders stepping up to organize heal chains, tank orders, bump lists, assign train-away roles, etc. (which the rando isn't organizing). That mob might not die without RTE and race line team waiting (which the rando isn't doing). That mob doesn't die without a lot of hours of theory-crafting, and testing of strats on test and P99, practice sessions, etc. (which the rando didn't particpate in).

End game raiding is not just as simple as show up, kill a mob, get some loot.


Great points. I stand corrected.

[Nexii]

DKP is an inferior and archaic loot system. Loot list is the way.

Elaborate for those not on Green

[Aadill]

Elaborate for those not on Green

What's the point? Green is irrelevant.

[Psyborg]

no one wants to join a guild where everyone else on it has inflated DKP.

They will if they want to see endgame content. This is a game where the item you want may only drop once per year for your guild, if that. Longevity needs to be rewarded.

[foxchris509]

The problem isnt dkp its spending thousands of dkp on a single item. Spending months of play time just to get one bis piece is kinda wack. People bidding up other people just to make them go all in on a single piece they've wanted forever. Prices do go down but only if your guild is the one on top getting vulaks every week or kt etc. If not good luck getting anything of value for a decent price.

[Evia]

After reading all of this I personally think DKP needs work, but I think it might still be the best system atm.I agree with all the dkp supporters tho that a compensation of sorts unfortunately does need to be presented in order to motivate the guild members to participate. I don't like bidding with dkp, as fox above me points out. What if every member rolled after every raid kill and highest roll 1-3000 immediately decides if they sell or loot. If they sell, immediately after they say "I sell! Starting bid at _____" and everyone bids with Plat? Would this be more or less fair? Give more or less incentive to raid? Or be more or less complicated than dkp?


As a filthy casual I think I'd rather utilize something like that vs dkp but idk?

I definitely think we should consider alternatives though.

[Aadill]

The problem with plat is now everyone either needs a fair shake at camps or the few plat farmers in the game always get the loot they want while everyone else has to find a way to make money to afford loot. Plat, while not a finite resource, is a resource that is easily gained in some locations of the game world versus others. There are people with millions of plat in this game who have purchased all sorts of droppable raid gear while there are other people who are also in best-in-slot items (that aren't droppable) that have 5k or less to their name. Imagine what happens if all of those people want to outfit another character? Well, they'd go farm cash camps. Solo, because they can. Honestly, that already happens, but this would just amplify it's necessity.

The DKP system simply relies on an equalized fiat currency that can be adjusted (or not adjusted) for inflation per however the guild or entity you are in decides to manage it. Sure, it's worthless in the next guild/entity you decide to join, but that's the risk you take.

So, farm cash over time to pay for droppable raid loot to get near BIS or BIS items, or join a guild and get them for time spent raiding.

[Littul Jonn]

Pretty sure if you started seeing more Plat bid raids like you have gbids in WoW you'd see more RMT happening. Pay $20 for Vulak loot or wait in a zerg guild for 2 years to get it?

I do like the loot prio sheet idea, but nobody is going to abandon their piles of DKP. Sorry dude, DKP is here till they shut the servers down :P

[NPC]

The real problem is that raiding sucks for 99% of everyone involved except those few that actually get decent loot. The main groups handling the actual fighting an pulling are the only ones doing anything. Everyone else sits around with their thumb in their azz, till its burn the main mob down in 2 mins. That's why they have DKP, so people get SOMETHING, exp gains usually suck or you lose exp. You show up for a raid, waste 2-9 hours of your life an lose exp in the process. Ya awesome experience, I sat in a corner looking at a wall for 9 hours casting buffs, or heals, mod rods. I ran up to the dragon an was dragon feared for 3 min non-stop while everyone else killed the dragon. I was busy getting 6 rezs a row an didn't even get a spell or hit in because my one resist stat sucks. Got 0 loot an lost 20% exp from my level despite all the rezzing. We spent 4 hours breaking into Fear and an earth quake hit.
That is the real raid experience, just about every raid I've been on sucked hairy, sweaty, vinegary goat ballz sack. The best times, single high level groups in high level dungeons. They want to custom the server do something about the shittiness we all know too well. Why the fuck not?
Of course if we don't keep loot rare the nerds might not covet it enough to masturbate to it. DKP because epic raids suck epically.

[magnetaress]

You shouldn't lose exp. Ya'll are just recklessly chasing loot above your pay grade and fighting each other for it instead of the mobs.

Consider red.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am not sure why people seem to think DKP systems do not encourage players to show up to raid targets that do not offer loot they can use. DKP systems are great at encouraging players to show up. The reason is simple: You get DKP for the kill/attempt. More DKP = a better chance at winning the items you want later on. If you only show up for a few targets in a DKP system, you will be waiting a long time to get the items off of those targets, unless they are very cheap.

/random is simply too unfair for the players who put in the most work in a guild. The reality is a guild's success is mostly based on the hardcore players, not the casuals. I am not saying casuals are not vital to the raiding process, but they are the more passive aspect of the guild. The active, hardcore aspects are the raid leaders, FTE foot racers, COTHers, expert warriors, etc. You wouldn't be able to get any high priority targets without these people, and hardcore players want to be rewarded for their effort. DKP systems are the best at doing that, which is why all of the top guilds use it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The reason why it takes months to get an item is because Everquest is a game based on good items being hard to get. Seven day respawn timers by themselves mean you will not get more than 100 drops of a specific item per year. It is usually way less than this, due to the randomized drop tables.

That is one of the main reasons people play p99 in my opinion. If you want to be able to create a BiS character in short period of time, basically every major MMO out there caters to that playstyle. P99 is one of the few MMOs out there that still has real item rarity.

[whyyoukickmydog]

The real problem is that raiding sucks for 99% of everyone involved except those few that actually get decent loot. The main groups handling the actual fighting an pulling are the only ones doing anything. Everyone else sits around with their thumb in their azz, till its burn the main mob down in 2 mins. That's why they have DKP, so people get SOMETHING, exp gains usually suck or you lose exp. You show up for a raid, waste 2-9 hours of your life an lose exp in the process. Ya awesome experience, I sat in a corner looking at a wall for 9 hours casting buffs, or heals, mod rods. I ran up to the dragon an was dragon feared for 3 min non-stop while everyone else killed the dragon. I was busy getting 6 rezs a row an didn't even get a spell or hit in because my one resist stat sucks. Got 0 loot an lost 20% exp from my level despite all the rezzing. We spent 4 hours breaking into Fear and an earth quake hit.
That is the real raid experience, just about every raid I've been on sucked hairy, sweaty, vinegary goat ballz sack. The best times, single high level groups in high level dungeons. They want to custom the server do something about the shittiness we all know too well. Why the fuck not?
Of course if we don't keep loot rare the nerds might not covet it enough to masturbate to it. DKP because epic raids suck epically.

Spoken like a true casual. The meta evolves significantly, and all the moving parts required for a proper Vulak kill right now have become so complex that it really makes your statement look silly.

[whyyoukickmydog]

Also, what Littul said about RMTing in a GDKP setting is 100% true, and you need look no further than Classic WoW.

[BlackBellamy]

Spoken like a true casual. The meta evolves significantly, and all the moving parts required for a proper Vulak kill right now have become so complex that it really makes your statement look silly.

Imagine belittling someone because they described their general raid experience in a way that somehow denigrated your perception of the evolved raid meta for a specific raid target. You even called him a peasant and an idiot to boot. I think the evolved meta might be insecurity, not zerging Vaginanak.

[Praxcthius]

To: blackbellamy I think you also are the npc poster. so you can look like you have the backing of someone else on this completely irresponsible way of looking at raiding. if you don't know shit about something you will fail a lot. if you don't learn, you will fail a lot. in your statement you said that the whyyoukickmydog called a person a peasant and idiot. which they completely did not. what they did was say. "This game requires actual involvement in learning its mechanisms to be successful for raiding and getting loot with more than 6 people"

NOw to BlackBellamy :: I am calling you an idiot. and a peasant. but I would never raid your vaganything cuz it's lazy like you.....

Klazdaxthun

[whyyoukickmydog]

Imagine belittling someone because they described their general raid experience in a way that somehow denigrated your perception of the evolved raid meta for a specific raid target. You even called him a peasant and an idiot to boot. I think the evolved meta might be insecurity, not zerging Vaginanak.

Imagine coming into a forum titled Rants n Flames and being upset when he sees people ranting and flaming.

[imperiouskitten]

bunch of ranting flamers imo

[Jimjam]

Why do guilds
Use dkp here
Everytime
They raid fear
I guess just like me
They long to see
Closed bid loot.

[7thGate]

One other things I'll note that I haven't seen mentioned yet is that DKP or some type of currency based bidding helps maximize utility from drops by ensuring that people who value something more get it over people who value something less.

For example, I have a https://wiki.project1999.com/Shadow_Fang_Necklace . Aegis rarely gets NToV kills, but they do trickle in from ban weeks and other things. If we killed Aaryonar and got https://wiki.project1999.com/Amulet_of_the_Dreadgazer it is definitely an upgrade for me, but it is relatively minor; I have a number of slots that are much more in need of a substantial upgrade. If we're all rolling need, than I'm rolling on that. But I'm not likely to pay more than about 30 RAP (Aegis DKP, roughly equivalent to hours of raid attendance) for that, and someone else is almost certainly going to value it higher, which means it goes to them. That's good, you want things to go where they are higher impact.

Likewise, if there's a https://wiki.project1999.com/Vyemm's_Fang dropped, I don't want a Shadow Knight or Bard rolling on it because its a AC/resist piece or they're level 54 and don't have a better weapon yet. SKs can trivially get a stronger weapon, while that Fang is a top tier Rogue piece from a very hard and contested mob. That naturally fixes itself with DKP because the Rogues will bid it up way higher than Bards or SKs will be willing to pay.

You can try and work around this with a bunch of rules about who is allowed to roll on what, but some type of currency works better since it naturally adjusts and takes into account personal preference instead of what people think you should be getting.

One thing I have come to realize though is that no matter what method you use to allocate loot, some people are going to be unhappy about it.

[wagorf]

There is no one fair system that appeals to all. DKP is likely "fair" for most players as it rewards your time spent in participating in raids. Imagine melees not willing to show up for Velks kill.

I've been in loot council , loot council+dkp , and pure dkp guilds. By far worst is council + dkp (Europa).

Europa officers would snipe items by calling a drop to be "loot council" when their core wants the item (Green Scale being a prime example). Their reason being, success of guild is more important. Europa officers or ex-officers are full of shit.

[Ravager]

/random is the only fair answer and is as fair as anything else in life. People don't want fair though and will continue to argue why a system that lets them put their thumb on the scale is best.

[condap99]

Because how you tool your character should be your decision, not your luck.

Pretty simple. I can't help you if you don't understand it.

[Ravager]

Sorry. Random is as fair as the universe gets. 1 in 5 people live on less than a dollar a day and it's not because they're not working hard for what they get.

If you expect people to wake up at 3am to log on a game and help you kill a dragon so you can loot it without giving them a fair shake, you are just a selfish prick. If you want to work for it and attend more raids for more rolls, the laws of averages will give you your fair share.

If you're worried that some wizard will win some warrior loot or won't attend a raid if caster gear isn't dropping, guess what, you can wheel and deal and trade rolls and favors to sort that shit out. If someone gets hot dice and wins a bunch of shit and they just start gearing up alts, well there's an answer for that too, be more selective about who you let in your guild.

Just don't tell me DKP is fair when only a few get a chance at the best loot despite being carried by a zerg of others wasting their time gearing your characters.

Pretty simple. I can't help you if you don't understand it.

[magnetaress]

I still stand by using dkp should let you buy a chance to /random

I was also in a guild once that let everyone random but dkp would modify their roll if they spent it.

[Gustoo]

What rules apply to random? Do everyone in attendance do the /random?

I think the argument that your high raid attendance means you get high amount of /randoms is pretty strong, but I guess I can imagine scenarios where it breaks down, just like all the DKP guys can see how it breaks down too.

Can someone tell me a complete system that works and isn't broken as heck? On random roll I can see a lot of messes happening if the entire attendant list /randoms for every single item that is dropped.

Many hours would be spent when those winners take time to negotiate the loot rights with other guildies ETC.

Depriving a guildie of needed fat loots in order to go sell it on the messageboard seems obviously wrong because a guild is supposed to be a team not some??? weird ass thing where people band together in a greed before need situation.

But I don't know how you handle distribution in a big big guild.

[Ravager]

Log parsers exist. Easy enough to script the highest rolls.

Who really needs anything here? The Planes were beat with Classic Dungeon Gear. Kunark was beat with Classic Planes Gear. Velious was beat with Kunark Gear. Nobody needs best in slot on this server for anything. It's all just dressing up their dolls. There is no good argument that one person needs something more than any other.

Yes, everyone in attendance gets a random. That's the only fair thing for waking someone up in the middle of the night to do this shit. Add rules and you're just trying to skew things unfairly in your own favor. If you think there are loafers in the guild just showing up to roll and not do anything, well there's always /gkick. You'll find out who's actually there for the good of the guild and their friends in a hurry.

Big big guilds only exist to give a few at the top the numbers they need to coast for their loot and telling a bunch of people that they actually have a chance at the things they want if they just earn the DKP is a lie and a scam. If everyone had a fair roll on everything that dropped you wouldn't see the burnout and turnover you do in the zergs because that chance would always be there to get that thing they really wanted and they wouldn't feel like they're just spinning their wheels.

/random is the only fair answer and is as fair as anything else in life. People don't want fair though and will continue to argue why a system that lets them put their thumb on the scale is best.

[magnetaress]

What rules apply to random? Do everyone in attendance do the /random?

I think the argument that your high raid attendance means you get high amount of /randoms is pretty strong, but I guess I can imagine scenarios where it breaks down, just like all the DKP guys can see how it breaks down too.

Can someone tell me a complete system that works and isn't broken as heck? On random roll I can see a lot of messes happening if the entire attendant list /randoms for every single item that is dropped.

Many hours would be spent when those winners take time to negotiate the loot rights with other guildies ETC.

Depriving a guildie of needed fat loots in order to go sell it on the messageboard seems obviously wrong because a guild is supposed to be a team not some??? weird ass thing where people band together in a greed before need situation.

But I don't know how you handle distribution in a big big guild.
Usually ppl don't go for stuff they don't need.

I remember being a dkp scrooge tho and spending like 3 weeks of DKP on a shield for my cleric in GoD that wasn't BiS for the healer role, but really nice anyway. I got kinda the cold shoulder for it.

Don't think I ever upgraded that shield until well into TSS. I loved it. Cuz it was cool and made me feel safer.

[Dennar]

Why has no one discussed the obvious solution #Pick3 loot system. You get more loot going to people who want/need it and get just a hint of /random still.

[Vianna]

Sorry. Random is as fair as the universe gets. 1 in 5 people live on less than a dollar a day and it's not because they're not working hard for what they get.

If you expect people to wake up at 3am to log on a game and help you kill a dragon so you can loot it without giving them a fair shake, you are just a selfish prick. If you want to work for it and attend more raids for more rolls, the laws of averages will give you your fair share.

If you're worried that some wizard will win some warrior loot or won't attend a raid if caster gear isn't dropping, guess what, you can wheel and deal and trade rolls and favors to sort that shit out. If someone gets hot dice and wins a bunch of shit and they just start gearing up alts, well there's an answer for that too, be more selective about who you let in your guild.

Just don't tell me DKP is fair when only a few get a chance at the best loot despite being carried by a zerg of others wasting their time gearing your characters.

Pretty simple. I can't help you if you don't understand it.

Terrible argument. /random has never been and will never be a fair loot system in a raiding enviroment with 25+ people.

[Ravager]

Terrible argument. /random has never been and will never be a fair loot system in a raiding enviroment with 25+ people.
That is a comprehensive and well laid out counter argument. Consider my mind changed. DKP is the best and only answer.

[Kohedron]

Because it rewards the ugliest of all the snaggletooths out there. Pretty simple.