Un-nerf caster 40 damage cap!!!

[Ivory]

This is a big bug for casters!! It's extremely rare to run into issues with it (because just one item does)... BUT, with kunark coming.... it's important!!

Un-nerf the 40 damage cap for casters!!!

https://wiki.project1999.com/Rod_of_annihilation

[Baler]

I believe these are the Project 1999 patch notes related to this
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265599

Haynar: Implemented class specific level based weapon damage caps. Thanks Demonstar55 from EQEmu.

and this is the post by demonstar55
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2469716&postcount=160
which links to
https://github.com/EQEmu/Server/blob/d043c38f71eef1436a8fc11b85e09b5a1480f7f4/zone/attack.cpp#L1092

[Ivory]

Those are based on live client, I checked several older clients and they stopped at the level >= 40 branch (line 1108)

This shouldn't nerf anything, it MAY have an effect on twinks though, but I don't think there is anything hitting the new caps that weren't hitting the old, incorrect caps.

In this persons own admission, these are from live... which isn't how classic was.

The cut-off for casters at 40 damage definitely isn't right (again, rod of annihilation exists, and it wasn't capped at 40 damage when they had it on classic).

You would have record of people talking about the rod of annihilation "really only being a 40/40" all through alakahzam. (let alone the handful of other items for casters that have +40 damage on them, especially in velious).

[Ivory]

Let us look at some high end weapons! And then you gotta think, how could the classic caster damage cap REALLY be 40.... when there are so many weapons higher than 40?

First up, of course, me dream rod

http://wiki.project1999.com/Rod_of_Annihilation

BUT there are more!!

http://wiki.project1999.com/Shovel_of_the_Harvest

Why would they put this all/all weapon in ... if casters were excluded in such a big way from a damage cap? Makes no sense!!

http://wiki.project1999.com/Primal_Velium_Brawl_Stick

Or these fine velium weapons!! Makes no sense!!

http://wiki.project1999.com/Priceless_Velium_Brawl_Stick


Your honors, I would have you postulate on why all these weapons exist in classic ALL THE WAY TO VELIOUS with a higher than 40 damage on them for casters... if the classic damage cap was really 40 damage.

The answer is, they wouldn't have!!!

I rest my case. Checkmate. Especially since the ONLY "evidence" they have for making this change is that "40 damage is what it is on live right now" (which is no reason at all!!!)

[Ivory]

Rabble rabble rabble! We need official rulings on this before kunark comes! this is top important issue! Since one of the most classic and most amazing items is about to finally be available after 20 long years!!!

Let us have the full power of this mighty artifact!!

[Dolalin]

Okay here's what a text search of the archive turned up.

1) This post from EQNecros. There seems to have been some expectation by this guy that he would hit for 84dmg with a rod of annihilation.


Posted - 11/08/2000 : 01:48:04

Gnome. Major reason: faction. I'm good with most NPCs, even treants.

Minor Reasons: From L1 to L32 I hunted mostly inside cities. It might be possible to do it until 50, you just have to look for them. And those same cities look warmly or kindly on me. hehehe. I love quests that fix faction.

I should have chosen Erudite, if only for the extra 5 MR. (Erudites start with a higher base MR and intelligence.)

Gnome Dexterity and Agility allows me to proc my Staff of Writhing 3 or 4 times a fight, and Vampiric Embrace procs the same number of times for a 50ish lifetap so it adds up to 6 to 8 procs for 300 to 400 extra points of damage. (I'm the battle necro tank, hehe.. at L40 I was whacking them mobs, makes me want to get a Rod of Annihilation so I can hit for 84 a pop.)

But for most other stat reasons, you can make do with equipment. Then there's always the friendly high level shaman to buff you up.


Dadok (Rodcet Nife)

https://web.archive.org/web/20001208143600/http://necro.eqclasses.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=475&FORUM_ID=7&CAT_ID=2&Topic_Title=So+you+want+to+be+a+Necro..+Which+race +and+why?&Forum_Title=Daily+Discussion


2) This thread from eqnecros about melee. A necro saying he hit for 92 with his epic:


Posted - 06/25/2001 : 09:59:36

Necro Melee, if properly buffed is great. Though the low skill of 110 in any weapon skill sucks.

I have gotten my ATK up to the 850 range with full shaman/ranger and bard epic procs. And i Can PROUDLY boast a 92 PURE melee hit as a necro. (using Epic) My previous high was 83 with the Staff of Undead legions. (Sorry boys, but this is too much fun in hate and howling stones procing 585 every couple swings)

As far as relying on weapon for damage, you cant do that, but it's a good crowd pleaser watching the manastone do some damage without using mana :P

Stoney


https://web.archive.org/web/20010726182232/http://necro.eqclasses.com:80/forums/topic.asp?cat_id=1&FORUM_ID=53&TOPIC_ID=5313&Topic_Title=Necro+melee?&Forum_Title=Necromancer+Game+Guides


And on Allakhazam:


Aug 15 2002 at 12:08 PM
__DEL__1592759596140

Max I hit for with a 32/32 weapon on my chanter maxed out skill is 110.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=154#m102943059546642


I'm actually not sure what the current caster melee dmg cap is on P99 but those are some values to compare against.

[Ivory]

None of that means anything, since the current cap is 40 damage.... and the amount of damage you do is going to be based on your ([Offense Skill] + [STR]) / 100

.... so... if you have 155 strength vs 255 strength... that's an entire additional 1 modifier on the weapon.

At 40 damage cap, I expect to hit maximum of 144ish with max strength. But in classic EQ, it would have been SUPER SUPER SUPER rare to find any caster that went that high with STR....and SUPER SUPER SUPER rare for them to even have a weapon over 40 damage to test it with.

Essentially.... there is absolutely NO evidence that damage for casters was capped at 40 in classic / kunark / luclin. There are 4 high end weapons for casters with a higher damage cap than that (which means it will be rare, veryyy rare....and even then you aren't going to have level 60's really meleeing much anyhow).

This "40 damage cap" is based ENTIRELY on modern day live servers, where casters have a LOT more weapons that go over 40 damage (making it much more of a twink issue and something they would eventually tweak). But , again, nothing exists in classic to make anyone think that this was the real damage cap.

And even in the implementation here on p99... they just kind of guess threw it in and said "hope it doesn't nerf anything? -shrug-".... it's bananas. It completely nerfs the very high end of a specialized build.... brawl sticks and shovel of the harvest?? These things are all/all for a reason!!

[Ivory]

I looking at it more... and here is the snip from the code used in p99....

if (level >= 125) {
cap = 7 * level;
} else if (level >= 110) {
cap = 6 * level;
} else if (level >= 90) {
cap = 5 * level;
} else if (level >= 70) {
cap = 4 * level;
} else if (level >= 40) {

So..... this was a period when the level cap was more than 125!!!! This is stuff from like 2018 or 2019!

Of course they will have aggressive lower level damage caps, they have things like 500+ damage weapons on live.

Here, a quick look at Ala found this https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=108883

A TRADEABLE 221 damage staff :|

Yup yup, at this point it seems clear that this 40 damage cap stuff was way way way later in EQ. Like I said, there are only 4 items that a caster can use in classic that go over this amount (for a specialized build), 3 of 4 of those come from SUPER high end stuff and are no drop... and you aren't going there unless you are 60.

That leaves ONLY the rod of annihilation as a potential 40+ damage weapon for lower levels.

And , really, ok, leave in some damage cap. I understand not wanting level 1 casters going around with rods of annihilation and it being a super twink item.

So lift the damage at level 50 at least.... sure that isn't totally classic, but it's still a good compromise so we can enjoy these fine weapons!

[Pringles]

The demonstar55 change was implemented was based on a decompile of the Trilogy client. Close this as it as classic as you can get.

[Ivory]

The demonstar55 change was implemented was based on a decompile of the Trilogy client. Close this as it as classic as you can get.

That makes no sense. Why would they have a caster only item in the game that has 60 damage... if they had capped it at 40 damage from classic?

And then they realized how strong it was in Kunark and removed the item....

THEN they added 3 more items for casters that are over 40 damage in velious also.

Demonstar55 says

Those are based on live client

And that older clients just had removed the higher level cap ones.

But nothing says this was actually the classic limit of weapon damage. And removing the items or even having the item be over 40 damage from the start makes no sense if that was their hard cap on damage.

It's MUCH MUCH more likely that they just adjusted down the damage cap later (in luclin maybe?) once more 40+ caster items became available. Otherwise there would be absolutely no reason for them to address it (since they already had nerfed / removed the rod early on in kunark... and the velious items are all no drop from level 60 raid zones).

But then later on, once more items started becoming available, they revisited the way of handling it and just capped the damage on casters down lower than it has been previously (instead of trying to deal with all the weapons).

[Ivory]

The only way they could have done the "40 damage cap" is if you argue that they didn't know their own damage caps when making kunark....?? I don't even imagine how that is possible? Of course they knew their damage caps... just in kunark they hadn't narrowed it down enough to really have guidelines on a "caster melee weapon" like the rod.

After doing more digging I found this

https://github.com/erfg12/EQClassic/blob/master/Zone/Source/attack.cpp#L2454

This seems much closer to actual classic EQ damage caps... which... weren't much.

At level 20 the caps get lifted.

The idea that a caster with a staff in classic was MAXING at 6 damage till level 10?? It seems highly suspicious...

But then the real suspicious bit was when they get into higher level damage caps .... classic EQ just wasn't THAT itemized in terms of capping damages (they never thought that far until later ... which is why they were still making a 60/40 caster only weapon in their first expansion.......... and STILL making +40 damage weapons into velious....)

[Dolalin]

The same people weren't in charge of coding as were creating items and zones. Someone made a joke item (which was removed very quickly btw) and didn't know the caster damage cap. It's not hard to believe.

A client decompile is objective evidence. I don't think this is ever going to change.

[Ivory]

Such late era code isn't objective evidence...

I posted EQclassic code though, and it shows the source code from the Everquest Trilogy box (which is exactly the timeline for p99)

https://github.com/erfg12/EQClassic/blob/master/Zone/Source/attack.cpp#L2454

if(GetLevel() < 10 && max_hit > 20)
max_hit = 20;
else if(GetLevel() < 20 && max_hit > 40)
max_hit = 40;

This seems like a better source than the EQemu code that sources from live client so late. And just seems to fit what we know about EQ much more closely (which is a more broader stroke with things, they only went in and started really refining a lot of exceptions as things went on.... like even stuff like vampiric embrace for necros and SKs were the same at first and then they split it off for balancing reasons as their own versions later).

[Ivory]

Another "this makes no sense" bit of evidence for the non-classic code in p99 now.

Casters have a damage cap currently of 6 when they are under level 10....

Yet mages can summon a 7 damage staff at level 8?? https://wiki.project1999.com/Summoned:_Staff_of_Tracing

The classic code I posted simply makes much more sense https://github.com/erfg12/EQClassic/blob/master/Zone/Source/attack.cpp#L2454

if(GetLevel() < 10 && max_hit > 20)
max_hit = 20;
else if(GetLevel() < 20 && max_hit > 40)
max_hit = 40;

[Ivory]

Looking for more evidence tonight (besides, well, that code I posted....which shows the damage cap lifts at level 20, and the damage cap is a blanket rule across all classes)

But, here is some things to back it up.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=154&p=3#m981694730644

this person says, Feb 09, 2001

it won't work, there is a soft damage cap until level 20, othervise, it would be fun to see newbe do 60 damage :)

And according to the code, that's right. There is a cap till 20.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2708&p=1#m100894383520402

also!!! from dec 21, 2001

My lvl 12 Dwarf cleric now hits for 25 points of damage regularly.

So let's break this down. Currently with the code that says a priest will have 12 damage weapon cap (the brell hammer is 15 damage base)... let's calculate the expected damage.

BUT, a dwarf cleric has 95 starting str, and at level 12 will have 65 weapon skill.

The calculation is (Weapon skill + STR) / 100 = modifier

So with the CURRENT code, they would be expected to hit for about 19 or 20 damage.

BUT with a 15 damage weapon (the code I posted), it would be 1.6 x 15 = 24 damage hits or 25 if that level 12 has any strength (or uses yaulp).

Right where the person is saying it lands.

OTHERWISE you would have a 12 max weapon capped hitting for over 2x damage.... which wouldn't be happening so early with so low weapon skill. Unless they had a LOT of strength to make up for it (which isn't that likely on a cleric).

...............

The other thing that's important to keep in mind... is that if the damage cap works on weapon damage... then that means even at low levels you can get up to some high damage hits.

Again, it's (weapon skill + STR) / 100

So if you gave a level 9 warrior a 10 damage weapon... twinked / buffed to 255 str, they would be hitting for roughly 31 damage a hit.....

Does that seem right to anyone to have a twink be able to do that??? The 20 damage cap on damage being a hard limit (regardless of what you try to twink with) is more more realistic to classic.

Heck, getting an ogre twink to 200+ str early wouldn't even be that crazy... and they could start hitting way over a typical damage cap.

Anyhow, that's what I found today, more looking tomorrow.

[Ivory]

https://www.reddit.com/r/project1999/comments/2wk030/rod_of_annihilation_worth_it_for_enc/corr6ax/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Oh wait! I found another bit of evidence!

This person is saying he had a friend demo the rod back in the day... and it was hitting for 200ish damage.

At 40 damage cap, it wouldn't hit that hard. Even with 255 str and 110 skill... 40 x 3.65 = 146 max you can hope for

BUT if you are working with the actual damage of the weapon, then you can get to a max of 219.

That's some good first hand evidence of the power of the rod back in the day!!! More evidence supporting the "40 damage max cutoff" isn't classic!

[N0tClassic]

The same people weren't in charge of coding as were creating items and zones. Someone made a joke item (which was removed very quickly btw) and didn't know the caster damage cap. It's not hard to believe.

A client decompile is objective evidence. I don't think this is ever going to change.

Pure speculation

[BarackObooma]

Congrats to Palabin and her guildies for server first Rod of Annihilation! Long live Gnome bone knights! Hope it gets "fixed"!

[Ivory]

Congrats to Palabin and her guildies for server first Rod of Annihilation! Long live Gnome bone knights! Hope it gets "fixed"!

Thanksa!!

I hope it gets fixed too! I posted so much evidence... and also... after parsing the damage... it won't even break anything.

-wiggles eyebrows at devs- you knows you want tooooo -wiggles eyebrows more-

[Jimjam]

Are you seriously arguing the itemisation team cared for stat mechanics in this game where cleric only pants would have +int instead of +wis?

[Sabin76]

Are you seriously arguing the itemisation team cared for stat mechanics in this game where cleric only pants would have +int instead of +wis?

Nobody wants a stupid cleric...

[xmaerx]

Seconded, for reasons.