Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman [Archive]

sonofbaal

06-12-2020, 04:24 PM

So there is a lot of debate on Trolls vs Ogre for shaman, so I wanted to see just how much the troll regen really mattered. The objective is to find out which class is more efficient with mana , either in its regen or saving it.

Consider the following:

level 50:

Cani mana/hp ratio = .56
https://wiki.project1999.com/Cannibalize

ergo 50 hp turns into 28.

The Troll regen at level 50 is 1/4 (stand/sit) MORE hp than Ogre

Ergo, at level 50 , Troll canidancing will generate 2.24 effective mana per tick (.56*4), or 22.4 mana per minute, or 1344 mana per hour. How much is that?

4 evenomed bolts = 5112 dmg
9 gheals for = 2430 healing

Now comes the real question. In an hour , will you avoid that much damage of 2430 healing, by getting off a root/slow that would have gotten interrupted by stun?

Lets look at level 60:

Troll hp regen is is 7/11 respectively MORE than Ogre.
Which cana you would use the convert is going to depend on Kunark vs Vel, and how much time you want to waste canidancing. Lets go with the dirty quick canni3 with a ratio of .513 vels cani4 for .554

Kunark era quick = .513 * 7/11 =
for standing: 3.591mana/tick = 35.91 mana/min = 2154 mana/hour ,
for sitting : 5.643m/tick = 56.43m/min =3386 mana/hour .

Kunark era using CanI = .56*7/11 =
for standing: 3.92m/t = 39.2m/min = 2352mana/hour
for sitting : 6.16m/t = 61.6m/min = 3696 mana/hour

Vel cani 4 = .554
for standing : 3.899m/t = 38.99m/m = 2339mana/hour
for sitting: 6.09m/t = 60.9m/m= 3654 mana/hour

So how much is lets say 3600 mana end game?
about 24,300 healing per hour with turpor
and about 17,000 more dmg with Pox per hour.

The real question then ,is that worth it still?

Consider a single round of extra dmg you have to endure to root, lets say mid 50's thats around 400 dmg. How many times per hour does that happen? How many times in an hour do you have to take it in the face because you got bashed. Well in order to equate to 3600 mana per hour , you would have to take around 7000 dmg.

Of course are not soloing/tanking , then that is all moot. However, you cannot calculate saving your life because you got off a gate/root. But maybe , one might argue , you would have more mana as a troll , and could get off that gate/root that saves the day.

Finally there is the issue of the snare, which a Troll gets, and has utility when snare isnt available. Esp in velious when you can root and snare mobs.

Thoughts?Comment below , don't forget to leave a like ,share, subscribe, ring that bell, pull that lever, flip that switch, and toggle that dongle.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-12-2020, 05:34 PM

Baler

06-12-2020, 05:38 PM

Troll is the best min/max for shaman because of racial regen & decent stats. 25 wis / 5 sta

inb4 ogre fanboys grit their teeth and get red in the face.

But to what DeathsSilkyMist said... Once a shaman gets torpor, Race doesn't matter. It becomes a skill based class at that point. I've personally seen shaman of all races perform better than the min/max races. I even know a few barbarian shaman who can put ogre/troll to shame in the field.

I've soloed some of that hardest content as a shaman, Solo Grandmaster / Solo God Mode (https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Artist_Challenge#Solo_God_Mode.2FDuo_Grandmas ter:_any_5)

loramin

06-12-2020, 05:40 PM

When you get Torpor at level 60, you will be regenerating at 300 HP per tick. This means the extra 8 HP you get as a Troll while standing (you RARELY sit as a shaman) is barely noticeable. I am not saying extra regeneration is useless when you have Torpor, but it becomes MUCH less significant.

This is why you rarely see level 60 Torpor Shamans running around with https://wiki.project1999.com/Fungus_Covered_Scale_Tunic . The extra regeneration becomes much less noticeable. Level 60 Torpor Shamans (myself included) tend to prefer https://wiki.project1999.com/Chestplate_of_Vindication for the high HP and high resists. If those Shamans are willing to lose an extra 13 HP regeneration per tick, they are certainly willing to lose an extra 8 HP regeneration per tick.

Frontal Stun Immunity, however, can be a lifesaver. When you are fighting a super tough mob, you will only have a few minutes to get control of the situation, or die. An untimely interrupt when casting Slow, or Torpor, could be the difference between life and death.

Lets say you only have 3 minutes to gain control of a situation or die, for example. that extra 8 HP regeneration from being a Troll will net you a measly 240 HP over 3 minutes. That is 1-2 hits from a tough mob. Not a lot of benefit. Getting less interrupts on a Torpor or Slow, however, means you have a higher chance of getting control of the situation. If you have to waste an extra 15 seconds trying to slow the mob due to interrupts, you are losing WAY more than 240 HP.

This is why Ogres tend to be considered the best Shaman race. Frontal Stun Immunity is something you cannot get on gear, and regeneration becomes much less desirable at 60 with Torpor.

All this, except ... FSI isn't that big a deal. I 100% agree it does make Ogre Shaman best ... at level 60, with Torpor (but let's not dismiss just how long it will take you to get there either). But even so, it makes them only slightly, barely better than any other race.

The only bad Shaman race is Iksar ;) And even then I'm not really serious: the JBB isn't that big of a deal in the big picture.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-12-2020, 05:49 PM

Oh I agree. Frontal Stun Immunity is not a requirement on Shamans. We are just talking about Ogre vs. Troll specifically:) Pre-Torpor, Trolls are the best due to the extra regeneration, while still being able to use JBB. The lack of JBB is what makes Iksars a poor choice for leveling, sadly. Post-Torpor, Ogres are the best due to Frontal Stun Immunity becoming much more useful than 8 extra HP regeneration.

Gustoo

06-12-2020, 06:42 PM

Yep. Ogres are the best.

But all the other races are great too. If I wasn't ogre, I would be a barbarian for sure. 100%

Unless I wanted the kunark experience, and I would be an iksar and level through kunark exclusively, clearing all zones and all dungeons through my leveling quest. Such a beautiful place to explore with so much interesting history.

Baler

06-12-2020, 06:56 PM

Troll is the best, nothing can ruin the benefits of racial regen. Pre-60, Pre-torpor, Post-torpor Troll stats + Racial regen are $$$

Frontal stun doesn't stop interrupts. It stops Stuns.

Welcome to 1999 b****es (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fXVcLcRFf8)

sonofbaal

06-12-2020, 07:12 PM

When you get Torpor at level 60, you will be regenerating at 300 HP per tick. This means the extra 8 HP you get as a Troll while standing (you RARELY sit as a 60 shaman with Torpor) is barely noticeable. I am not saying extra regeneration is useless when you have Torpor, but it becomes MUCH less significant.

This is why you rarely see level 60 Torpor Shamans running around with https://wiki.project1999.com/Fungus_Covered_Scale_Tunic . The extra regeneration becomes much less noticeable. Level 60 Torpor Shamans (myself included) tend to prefer https://wiki.project1999.com/Chestplate_of_Vindication for the high HP and high resists. If those Shamans are willing to lose an extra 13 HP regeneration per tick, they are certainly willing to lose an extra 8 HP regeneration per tick.

Frontal Stun Immunity, however, can be a lifesaver. When you are fighting a super tough mob, you will only have a few minutes to get control of the situation, or die. An untimely interrupt when casting Slow, or Torpor, could be the difference between life and death.

Lets say you only have 3 minutes to gain control of a situation or die, for example. that extra 8 HP regeneration from being a Troll will net you a measly 240 HP over 3 minutes. That is 1-2 hits from a tough mob. Not a lot of benefit. Getting less interrupts on a Torpor or Slow, however, means you have a higher chance of getting control of the situation. If you have to waste an extra 15 seconds trying to slow the mob due to interrupts, you are losing WAY more than 240 HP.

This is why Ogres tend to be considered the best Shaman race. Frontal Stun Immunity is something you cannot get on gear, and regeneration becomes much less desirable at 60 with Torpor.

EDIT: In terms of your snare question, the necklace is not that great. It lasts 6 ticks, and the snare is so bad the mob needs to be at 10% to stop running, instead of the usual 20%. Not to say it is useless, but it is definitely not as good as it would need to be to justify rolling a Troll over an Ogre. If you really want snare on an Ogre, you can get https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction. Removed Anklesmasher, thought it was Shaman usable for some reason.

Forgive me since I am not big game shaman, but does tupor act as a CH at level 60? not sure how many HP shaman are rolling with these days.

Even even with torpor running unless you are hitting full health, regen is still basically adding health and therefore mana. You are paying lets say 200 mana for 1200-1500 health, lets say at 1200 , you can then candi that down to 600 mana roughly speaking, but during this you are still getting mana shrug. I can kinda see it.

if we think about it another way , the 6mana/tick from the regen sitting , out of your meditate mana , which is what...21 , say you have crack, thats 32? So your regen is roughly 20-25% of your mana regen that you get from extra health that you cani.

Now what you can argue, and is such an interesting point that with efficient heals, you basically bump you mana to what...600mana/24 seconds assuming you turp/cani = 25m/s = or 800mana/24 seconds to get = 34

so if we low ball it take uh 25 + 21 from meditate + 11 from crack = 57m/tick which would render the 6hp/tick to about 10% of your total mana regen , which is still not insignificant. Highball would be 34 + 21 + 11 = 66m/tick

I hope all that made sense, and thank you for your input I really appreciate it.

I don't disagree that fsi can save the day.

sonofbaal

06-12-2020, 07:13 PM

sonofbaal

06-12-2020, 07:37 PM

I also just forgot 2 points.

1. Regrowth I assume stacks with turpor? if thats the case then it would further dilute a Trolls regen
2. Turpor removes haste? if yes then you would have to recast it if you were doing some mele carnage.

Baler

06-12-2020, 08:42 PM

Thread number 10431,.. Ogres dummies try to argue that troll is inferior

troll regen + regrowth + fungi all STACK, YES THEY ALL STACK

Troll > Ogre

fuck sakes folks there are thread and thread and threads of proof why troll is the king shm race.

Stop grinding ur hammers on the keryboard, it's the only 1 ya got.

loramin

06-12-2020, 08:42 PM

1. Regrowth I assume stacks with turpor? if thats the case then it would further dilute a Trolls regen

Yes it stacks, and yes it's useful when health/mana regen is critical. But Torpor/Cann is just a way of life as a 60 Shaman, and that produces so much mana that I often don't even bother Regrowth-ing myself.

Forgive me since I am not big game shaman, but does tupor act as a CH at level 60? not sure how many HP shaman are rolling with these days.

No, but it comes pretty close: maybe 60-80%-ish, depending on gear/buffs?

Even even with torpor running unless you are hitting full health, regen is still basically adding health and therefore mana. ...

Yes regen ... whether from Regrowth, from being a Troll, from Fungi Tunics, or even from FT items (eg. Shawl) are all still good even once you have Torpor. Torpor doesn't magically make any of that bad. It's just that Torpor is so good, all those other things pale in comparison, and when you have the Torpor/Cann cycle going anything optional (like wearing a Fungi or casting Regrowth) is often just not worth the trouble.

2. Turpor removes haste? if yes then you would have to recast it if you were doing some mele carnage.

Melee damage is a tiny drop in the bucket for 60 Shaman. Our DoTs (including our best one, our pet) do way, way more, and what little melee damage we do while soloing tends to be in-between casting ... so haste doesn't matter.

Baler

06-12-2020, 08:45 PM

And just in case y'all didn't hear it the first time. Once a shaman get's torpor race doesn't matter.

I have a barbarian shaman also.

ps. sorry loramin getting my (another) +1 post count for the day, no disrespect sir.

loramin

06-12-2020, 08:48 PM

Once a shaman get's torpor race doesn't matter.

This is the correct takeaway. Not being a Barbarian is by far the thing you will notice most out of any Shaman race IMHO, simply because it limits where you can buy/sell/bank so severely (and you'll likely notice the comparative XP bonus also). Next would be not being a Troll/Iksar, because you will notice that lack of regen leveling up ... but then at 45+ an Iksar likely will miss the JBB.

And then finally after months, if not years of playing your character, you finally reach 60 and manage to acquire 60 ... and technically, on paper, if we're all being fair, Ogre becomes the best ... but it's by a tiny margin and really, again:

race doesn't matter.

ps. sorry loramin getting my (another) +1 post count for the day, no disrespect sir.

None taken (I quoted you after all :))

Baler

06-12-2020, 08:53 PM

acquire 60 ... and technically, on paper, if we're all being fair, Ogre becomes the best

Bull fuckin shit

Troll is the best shaman race

Stuns DOES NOT EQUAL INTTERUPT

Ogres can be interrupted the same as trolls

Trolls however get racial regen FOREVER

TROLL > OGRE

loramin

06-12-2020, 08:54 PM

Bull fuckin shit

Troll is the best shaman race

Stuns DOES NOT EQUAL INTTERUPT

Ogres can be interrupted the same as trolls

Trolls however get racial regen FOREVER

We'll have to agree to disagree (over the tiniest of differences: whether FSI or Troll regen is better at 60, when both barely matter) :)

DeathsSilkyMist

06-12-2020, 09:03 PM

Frontal stun doesn't stop interrupts. It stops Stuns.

This is a bit of misunderstanding of the mechanics. There are two components to bash when it comes to spell interruption. The first component is the stun itself. The stun automatically stops any spell from casting, and prevents you from doing additional actions until the stun is over. This is why a bash will ALWAYS interrupt a non-ogre's spells. The spell never gets to finish casting. It is not actually being "interrupted", from a channeling perspective.

The second component is the spell interruption component. The second component does NOT trigger 100% of the time. This is why Frontal Stun Immunity is good. Not only are you able to finish casting the current spell, due to the Stun not triggering, but you have a chance to have your spell successfully finish casting without being interrupted. I have seen this firsthand on my Ogre. I am able to finish casting a spell even though I was bashed.

Forgive me since I am not big game shaman, but does tupor act as a CH at level 60? not sure how many HP shaman are rolling with these days.

Torpor Heals 300 HP per tick, for 4-5 ticks. This is depending on the server tick, when the spell was cast. This means you are gaining 1200-1500 HP, while spending 200 mana. This means each Torpor will net you 400-550 mana, after you factor in the casting cost. So the math is simple: You are gaining 400-550 mana per 24-30 seconds. If you have an HP pool of 3000, and a mana pool of 3000, you will get back to full mana in roughly 4 minutes. It will take you another minute to get back your HP. So at WORST, you will be back at 100% mana and 100% HP in 5 minutes.

This is why extra Troll regeneration isn't that great. 8 additional HP regeneration equals 4800 HP per hour, or FOUR free Torpors. This means Trolls save a whopping two minutes on Torpors per hour. Not very useful overall. Torpor will always be able to quickly restore your HP and Mana bar.

loramin

06-12-2020, 09:12 PM

Torpor Heals 300 HP per tick, for 4-5 ticks. This is depending on the server tick, when the spell was cast. This means you are gaining 1200-1500 HP, while spending 200 mana. This means each Torpor will net you 400-550 mana, after you factor in the casting cost. So the math is simple: You are gaining 400-550 mana per 24-30 seconds. If you have an HP pool of 3000, and a mana pool of 3000, you will get back to full mana in roughly 4 minutes. It will take you another minute to get back your HP. So at WORST, you will be back at 100% mana and 100% HP in 5 minutes.

This is why extra Troll regeneration isn't that great. 8 additional HP regeneration equals 4800 HP per hour, or FOUR free Torpors. This means Trolls save a whopping two minutes on Torpors per hour. Not very useful overall. Torpor will always be able to quickly restore your HP and Mana bar.

A couple things to add. First, no one mentions how tedious all this is. Like, yes you can Torpor/Cann back from 0 mana to full in a few minutes ... but that's a few minutes of pressing Cann and your insta-click refresher over, and over, and over again (with intermittent Torpor casts). As powerful as it is, don't think it's glamorous (my kingdom for Cann V ;))

And second, one other thing about "Trolls save a whopping two minutes on Torpors per hour". Look, if you told me I could save two minutes an hour while XPing I'd be tripping over myself to buy whatever you're selling. But at 60 you don't grind, you farm, and whether that's in a group or solo it's not about optimum efficiency, it's just about having enough to get the job done.

DMN

06-12-2020, 10:33 PM

loramin did you respond to this but delete it cause I deleted it? LOL. Sorry. I wanted to refresh my memory on ticks to not waste someone else's time but still found no resolution to the quandry.

Anyway the post:

Where are people getting this 4-5 torpor ticks from? I know i see it on the wiki, but that's not how it should work. Either it should wait for the first tick, and then give you all the ticks eventually or if p99 is simply using seconds duration for the spell and then only giving health on spell duration which overlap with the server ticks, then you'd never get 5 ticks either as you'd have to land the spell the exact moment a tick was happening just to get 4 ticks(which would mean you'd virtually never get 4 ticks either).

So how is this 5 ticks allegedly happening on p99?

DeathsSilkyMist

06-12-2020, 11:27 PM

A couple things to add. First, no one mentions how tedious all this is. Like, yes you can Torpor/Cann back from 0 mana to full in a few minutes ... but that's a few minutes of pressing Cann and your insta-click refresher over, and over, and over again (with intermittent Torpor casts). As powerful as it is, don't think it's glamorous (my kingdom for Cann V ;))

And second, one other thing about "Trolls save a whopping two minutes on Torpors per hour". Look, if you told me I could save two minutes an hour while XPing I'd be tripping over myself to buy whatever you're selling. But at 60 you don't grind, you farm, and whether that's in a group or solo it's not about optimum efficiency, it's just about having enough to get the job done.

Lol I agree, Torporing from low HP and Mana is quite tedious. I still like it though. More interesting than sitting down and going AFK for 10 minutes.

I also agree that saving 2 minutes per hour is much more important when you are XPing to 60. I got Shawl 7 at level 52 to get an additional 600 mana per hour. Pre-Torpor, any HP/Mana regen you can get will increase your efficiency significantly.

The reason why saving 2 minutes becomes less useful with Torpor is because Torpor makes you the most efficient class in the game at regenerating HP and Mana, by a large margin. The only exception may be a cleric Complete Healing themselves with Manastone, but that is limited to the zones in which Manastone works.

loramin did you respond to this but delete it cause I deleted it? LOL. Sorry. I wanted to refresh my memory on ticks to not waste someone else's time but still found no resolution to the quandry.

Anyway the post:

Where are people getting this 4-5 torpor ticks from? I know i see it on the wiki, but that's not how it should work. Either it should wait for the first tick, and then give you all the ticks eventually or if p99 is simply using seconds duration for the spell and then only giving health on spell duration which overlap with the server ticks, then you'd never get 5 ticks either as you'd have to land the spell the exact moment a tick was happening just to get 4 ticks(which would mean you'd virtually never get 4 ticks either).

So how is this 5 ticks allegedly happening on p99?

I have seen Torpor give me 1500 HP back. It is a thing that happens, and it is not consistent. It depends on when you cast Torpor. I have no idea if this is "classic" or not. I haven't tried to game the system to make it consistent, either. It would be way too much effort, and when you are fighting a hard monster, you don't always have the luxury of waiting to Torpor.

DMN

06-12-2020, 11:43 PM

I have seen Torpor give me 1500 HP back. It is a thing that happens, and it is not consistent. It depends on when you cast Torpor. I have no idea if this is "classic" or not. I haven't tried to game the system to make it consistent, either. It would be way too much effort, and when you are fighting a hard monster, you don't always have the luxury of waiting to Torpor.

How do you know it depends on when you cast it or that it will take a lot effort if you don't even know what's causing it? Even if it did take a lot of effort, increasing the effectiveness of one of the strongest spells in the game by 25%i s hardly something to walk away from flippantly.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2020, 12:02 AM

How do you know it depends on when you cast it or that it will take a lot effort if you don't even know what's causing it? Even if it did take a lot of effort, increasing the effectiveness of one of the strongest spells in the game by 25%i s hardly something to walk away from flippantly.

This game works on a tick system. Normally, Torpor is supposed to heal 300 HP per 6 seconds for 4 ticks. This means you would get 300 HP at 6 seconds, 300 HP at 12 seconds, 300 HP at 18 seconds, and 300 HP at 24 seconds, for a total of 1200 HP.

My guess is the server just delivers the 300 HP on tick if Torpor is on your character as a buff. The 5th tick probably comes in to play when you cast Torpor right as the next server tick comes in. This means you will get 300 HP at 0 seconds. So you would get 300 HP at 0 seconds, 300 HP at 6 seconds, 300 HP at 12 seconds, 300 HP at 18 seconds, and 300 HP at 24 seconds for a total of 1500 HP.

Based on how Shamans work (they specifically use Regeneration as a mechanic), it would make sense that Torpor is more like a "super regeration" spell, as opposed to a DoT heal, like Celestial Healing. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Regrowth mechanically could also give you one extra tick. It just obviously doesn't really matter for regrowth, since 15 HP is a much smaller value than 300 HP. I assume Torpor is working as intended, if it is designed this way.

EDIT: Just confirmed it. You get 1500 HP back if Torpor lands right when the next server tick comes in.

Think about it this way: There are two kinds of buffs in EQ. Buffs that the server needs to keep track of on a per tick basis, (Such as DoTs), and buffs that the server does NOT need to keep track of on a per tick basis (such as Resist Cold). Any buff that needs to be checked by the server on a per tick will always be limited to the damage it can deal.

A perfect example is Splurt. You will never see Splurt ratchet up one additional tick of damage, even if you cast it right on the server tick. Resist Cold, however, would not need to be kept track of on a per tick basis. The server just needs to know when the buff needs to wear off. Torpor and Regeneration most likely work the same as a buff like Resist Cold. The server doesn't keep track of how many ticks the spell has ticked, it just keeps track of when Torpor needs to wear off.

This method of keeping track of buffs makes sense. It is way more expensive from a data perspective to keep track of every single buff on a per tick basis. They save that ONLY for spells that need it.

DMN

06-13-2020, 12:24 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2020, 12:34 AM

Eh? the spells are supposed to be measured purely in ticks, which just coincidentally are 6 seconds a part. it should be virtually impossible to cast it on the first tick and even if it did would just count it as a tick,leaving you with just 3 more to go. See this wiki https://wiki.project1999.com/Vexing_Mordinia for a counter claim of getting less ticks than advertised. Something is fucky.

I just edited my post, so you may not have seen it. From a data perspective, you would NOT want to keep track of a spell like Aegolism on a per tick basis. That is hours of extra data going over the network. For buffs like Aegolism, you only need to keep track of when the buff wears off. This is because buffs like Aegolism do not do anything on tick. They just sit there. You are not trying to resist Aegolism every tick, for example.

You only need to keep track of a spell on a per tick basis when it needs to be tracked. DoTs, Roots, Mesmerizes, etc. would all be examples of spells you need to keep track of on a per tick basis. This is because you could resist the spell each tick. This means the game needs to be stricter on monitoring these kinds of spells. This is why you wouldn't get an extra tick on a DoT.

Regeneration and Torpor are probably classified in the first type of buff, a buff like Aegolism. The server doesn't care about the buff on a per tick basis. The server just cares about when the buff needs to wear off. This means you could get an extra tick of Regeneration, or Torpor, if you happened to land the spell right as the next server tick hit. I did confirm it on my Shaman, too. You only get 1500 HP if you land Torpor on the server tick.

DMN

06-13-2020, 12:43 AM

I just edited my post, so you may not have seen it. From a data perspective, you would NOT want to keep track of a spell like Aegolism on a per tick basis. That is hours of extra data going over the network. For buffs, you would only want to keep track of when the buff needs to wear off. This is because buffs do not do anything on tick. They just sit there. You are not trying to resist Aegolism every tick, for example.

You only need to keep track of a "buff" on a per tick basis when it needs to be kept track of. DoTs, Roots, Mesmerizes, etc. would all be examples of spells you need to keep track of on a per tick basis. This is because you could resist the spell each tick.

Regeneration and Torpor are probably classified in the first type of buff, a buff like Aegolism. The server doesn't care about the buff on a per tick basis, just when it needs to wear off.

It doesn't matter if it's considered a buff/debuff, the healing ticks should only be 4 at maximum. For instance, the fact you got hit by the speed debuff of torpor a couple of seconds before the tick shouldn't change the number of healing ticks, only the total time you are slowed/snared. So you may have been snared/slowed for 27 seconds, but you still only got healed for 4 ticks.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2020, 12:50 AM

It doesn't matter if it's considered a buff/debuff, the healing ticks should only be 4 at maximum. For instance, the fact you got hit by the speed debuff of torpor a couple of seconds before the tick shouldn't change the number of healing ticks, only the total time you are slowed/snared. So you may have been snared/slowed for 27 seconds, but you still only got healed for 4 ticks.

I do programming for a living. This game was built in 1999. Keeping track of every single spell on a character on a per tick basis is a waste of your 56k modem's precious data.

There are two kinds of spells that can stick on a player:

1. Passive buffs
2. Spells that can be resisted.

For passive buffs, there is no need to check the buff on a per tick basis. The server just needs to know when the buff should wear off, and if the player has forcibly removed the buff.

For spells that can be resisted, the server must keep track of the spell on a per tick basis. This is because each tick could cause the spell to be resisted. These kinds of spells must be strictly monitored. This is why you cannot get an extra tick on a DoT, a root, a charm, etc.

For passive buffs, you COULD get an extra tick, because the server is just checking for when the spell wears off, not how many ticks the buff has lasted. Torpor is almost certainly classified as a passive buff with a short timer, rather than a DoT. It makes sense, since Torpor is like a super regeneration. The Regeneration line of spells probably works the same way. The server isn't checking the spell on a per tick basis. The server just checks if you have the buff, and gives you the extra HP.

DMN

06-13-2020, 01:46 AM

I do programming for a living. This game was built in 1999. Keeping track of every single spell on a character on a per tick basis is a waste of your 56k modem's precious data.

There are two kinds of spells that can stick on a player:

1. Passive buffs
2. Spells that can be resisted.

For passive buffs, there is no need to check the buff on a per tick basis. The server just needs to know when the buff should wear off, and if the player has forcibly removed the buff.

For spells that can be resisted, the server must keep track of the spell on a per tick basis. This is because each tick could cause the spell to be resisted. These kinds of spells must be strictly monitored. This is why you cannot get an extra tick on a DoT, a root, a charm, etc.

For passive buffs, you COULD get an extra tick, because the server is just checking for when the spell wears off, not how many ticks the buff has lasted. Torpor is almost certainly classified as a passive buff with a short timer, rather than a DoT. It makes sense, since Torpor is like a super regeneration. The Regeneration line of spells probably works the same way. The server isn't checking the spell on a per tick basis. The server just checks if you have the buff, and gives you the extra HP.

It only heals you on a server tick. Server ticks are every 6 seconds. it lasts until it has healed you for 4 ticks. If you cast it just before a tick, it would heal you and count down 1 tick, if it was cast just after the tick it would not heal you for that tick nor count down 1 tick. How is this possibly confusing you?

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2020, 01:47 AM

It only heals you on a server tick. How is this possibly confusing you?

I am not confused at all lol. I am trying to fix your confusion. Let me be as clear as possible.

Torpor lasts 24 seconds, No matter what. Here is how you can get 1500 HP:

1. Topor Lands.
2. Server Tick happens right after Torpor Lands.
3. The buff has 24 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
4. The buff has 18 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
5. The buff has 12 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
6. The buff has 6 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
7. The buff has just over 0 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
8. Your state of Torpor ends.

Here is how you get 1200 HP:

1. Torpor Lands
2. Server tick happened 3 seconds ago.
3. The buff has 21 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
4. The buff has 15 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
5. The buff has 9 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
6. The buff has 3 seconds remaining, you gain 300 HP.
7. Your state of Torpor ends.
8. The next server tick happens, 3 seconds later.

The reason why Torpor acts like this is because the game does not strictly monitor how many times Torpor has healed you. The game only checks if you have Torpor on as a buff, and it gives you 300 HP every tick.

Torpor does NOT get checked in the same way as a spell like root. Root must last 8 ticks, no matter what, and root needs to be checked every tick, to see if the resistance check has been passed. There is different game logic when dealing with root spells, as opposed to spells like Torpor, Aegolism, etc.

DMN

06-13-2020, 02:01 AM

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2020, 02:03 AM

No, this is how it works:

Server tick occurs.
"does client have torpor?"
No-> do nothing
yes->update life of player on server and set torpor to -1. send packet to player with updated life

if you got healed by torpor you lost a tick, the end of story. Even If you cast it "just before" the tick and the spell was measured in seconds not ticks, the 24 seconds will "just run out before" the 5th tick.

You are wrong. I literally tested it in game. I have a Torpor Shaman. If you land Torpor right on the server tick, you get 5 ticks. It works exactly as I described in my previous post.

The problem is you think every spell in the game is using the same exact programming logic. It is not. Buffs like Aegolism, Regeneration, and Torpor do not get checked in the same way as a spell like root.

DMN

06-13-2020, 02:12 AM

*** = server ticks

---You cast now just before server tick
0***
1
2
3
4
5
6***
7
8
9
10
11
12***
13
14
15
16
17
18***
19
20
21
22
23
---This is where you end up, never getting to 24
24***

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2020, 02:17 AM

*** = server ticks

-You cast now just before server tick
0***
1
2
3
4
5
6***
7
8
9
10
11
12***
13
14
15
16
17
18***
19
20
21
22
23
--This is where you end up, never getting to 24
24***

I am on my shaman right now, as we speak. I am consistently getting 5 ticks by casting Torpor on server tick.

The reason why spells like root ALWAYS last 8 ticks, is because the game logic specifically checks how many ticks root has lasted.

When a spell is NOT being checked for tick count, you can easily get a buff to slightly overlap on a tick. This is probably due to floating point precision and the clock speed of the server. This game isn't operating on an atomic clock. The timer on Torpor isn't EXACTLY 24 seconds. It is a bit over, or a bit under. Same with the tick. it isn't happening EXACTLY every 6 seconds. It is a bit over, or a bit under.

DMN

06-13-2020, 02:50 AM

I am on my shaman right now, as we speak. I am consistently getting 5 ticks by casting Torpor on server tick.

The reason why spells like root ALWAYS last 8 ticks, is because the game logic specifically checks how many ticks root has lasted.

When a spell is NOT being checked for tick count, you can easily get a buff to slightly overlap on a tick. This is probably due to floating point precision and the clock speed of the server. This game isn't operating on an atomic clock. The timer on Torpor isn't EXACTLY 24 seconds. It is a bit over, or a bit under. Same with the tick. it isn't happening EXACTLY every 6 seconds. It is a bit over, or a bit under.

Torpor and every other spell ENDS when the final tick is reached. The ticks are based on the server ticks, so all buffs/debuffs can theoretically last 5.99999999999... + 6 multiplied by the amount of ticks allotted for the spell duration. The buff/debuff duration doesn't matter tho because we are talking about HoTs/DoTs and their effect on life totals and they only update HP totals on server ticks for hots/dots. When the spell has encountered as many server ticks as the spell is supposed to last for, the spell ends.

Good god.i explain all of this shit in my first post about this and here I am again. No matter how you slice it, you can't get a 5th tick on a spell that only is supposed to last 4.

kjs86z

06-13-2020, 07:11 AM

Ogre is the ultimate if you're going for big time solo targets.

Troll is best for solo leveling (does anyone really care about this though?)

For everything else...its 100% aesthetics.

I like being a polar bear, so my sham is barb.

Sacer

06-13-2020, 09:27 AM

sonofbaal

06-13-2020, 09:41 AM

You are wrong. I literally tested it in game. I have a Torpor Shaman. If you land Torpor right on the server tick, you get 5 ticks. It works exactly as I described in my previous post.

The problem is you think every spell in the game is using the same exact programming logic. It is not. Buffs like Aegolism, Regeneration, and Torpor do not get checked in the same way as a spell like root.

Does this mean I wait until I see a tick and then cast? or try to land the spell almost immediately after the server tick? How do you do this

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2020, 10:24 AM

Torpor and every other spell ENDS when the final tick is reached. The ticks are based on the server ticks, so all buffs/debuffs can theoretically last 5.99999999999... + 6 multiplied by the amount of ticks allotted for the spell duration. The buff/debuff duration doesn't matter tho because we are talking about HoTs/DoTs and their effect on life totals and they only update HP totals on server ticks for hots/dots. When the spell has encountered as many server ticks as the spell is supposed to last for, the spell ends.

Good god.i explain all of this shit in my first post about this and here I am again. No matter how you slice it, you can't get a 5th tick on a spell that only is supposed to last 4.

Your problem is you do not understand programming, and you assume all spells are checked the same. Torpor is working as I described. It shows you are wrong in your assumptions. If all spells had a tick counter, Torpor would never be able to get a 5th tick. Evidence trumps your assumptions:)

As for Sonofbaal's question, the trick to getting a 5th tick on Torpor is to cast Torpor right when you see the tick come in. Torpor cast time is 6 seconds, so it will land as the next tick hits.

To Sacer, I never said regeneration was useless. I still use fungi staff with Torpor. The question here is which ability is more useful with Torpor. The answer is Frontal Stun Immunity, due to additional regeneration losing a lot of utility with Torpor. 8 HP regen is 4 Torpors per hour. That really isnt a big gain. Getting stunned less has more utility, due to an increased chance for that spell to land, and the ability to change what you are doing when you would otherwise be stunned.

loramin

06-13-2020, 11:37 AM

Saying regen on a 60 shaman is useless because you got torpor is as silly as saying you don't need clarity because you have torpor.

Most 60 shaman won't use regrowth or fungi anymore, of course they think the troll regen is not needed, that just show you that being 60 does not make you suddenly a good player.

I played the live version of Loramin through LDoN, and the version here for 5+ years. I won't claim to be "teh world's bestest Shaman", but I can safely say there is nothing "good" about casting a buff you don't need. When you imply players are bad for not casting Regrowth (or wearing a Fungi) ... you just sound like someone who hasn't played a 60 Shaman with Torpor.

I regularly solo A4 in PoM, one of the harder solo camps, with no Regrowth. I also own multiple Fungi Tunics, but don't wear one. Same thing with soloing the Crypt in Seb (although I might at least bother with Regrowth there if I'm doing all four rooms), or other hard 60 Shaman spots.

The simple truth is that level of regen doesn't decide whether you win or lose many fights. Torpor/Cann makes it so you virtually never lose these fights (which can last 5+ minutes) because you ran out of mana ... you lose them because of a series of "bad rolls" or mistakes on your part (eg. you get a string of slow resists). Similarly, if you do 100 A4 mobs, or Crypt mobs, or whatever with/without Troll regen, you'll likely have the same ratio of wins/deaths, because that regen won't help avoid death.

Now that's also true for Ogres and their FSI! But over the course of 1,000, or 10,000, or maybe 100,000 fights (I dunno exactly), you are going to have one where the RNG, a series of frontal stuns, and maybe some unlucky resists and/or interrupts also, combine to result in your death. In that one case you will survive if you're an Ogre and not if you're a Troll (or Barb/Iksar).

That is why Ogres are barely the best race ... at 60 with Torpor (quite possibly the minority of playtime for your average shaman, as it takes a long time to get there). But really it truly doesn't matter, as there is no "bad" Shaman race!

(Except, kind of, Iksar.)

Baler

06-13-2020, 12:29 PM

taking damage(vs channeling skill) or being pushed by a mob can interrupt your spell cast
Ogre doesn't stop either of these. Ogre stops frontal stuns, not even 360 stun immunity.

If you're a decent shaman you'll have torpor rolling so even if you get stunned it wont matter. (race doesn't matter)
Troll regen is always giving you an edge. It's not only applying to a certain time span of seconds.

Troll is a better race than Ogre for shaman.
The difference boils down to.. Do I want a racial ability that
Works for a few seconds (frontal stun immunity) (only frontal)
or
works forever and can't be disabled (racial regen)

Another reason.. Troll get's dotted they're taking racial regen less damage per tick. Ogre is taking full damage per tick.

Troll racial regen benefits more situations than just a stun. (which it also benefits because if there is a server tick during that stun you'll get more hp back)

------------------
I checked my log for soloing Ayillish...
I was *Stunned 4 times total
The fight lasted 20 minutes

I was stunned for 8 seconds total over the whole fight.
200 server ticks happened, I gained 2,400 more HP than an ogre during this fight.

You tell me which race is better. I'm saying Troll is greater than Ogre.

Sacer

06-13-2020, 02:58 PM

I can safely say there is nothing "good" about casting a buff you don't need.

Again, it's like saying c2 is a waste cause you can kill the same thing without, but you do realise more mana = faster kills and if fights are quicker it's safer and you can kill more things? :confused:

May be it's you that speak without having a 60 shaman with torpor. :rolleyes:

edit : oh and yeah I am one of those 60 shaman that wear fungi and bag vindi bp most of the time, and also cast regen on myself

loramin

06-13-2020, 03:30 PM

Again, it's like saying c2 is a waste cause you can kill the same thing without, but you do realise more mana = faster kills and if fights are quicker it's safer and you can kill more things? :confused:

May be it's you that speak without having a 60 shaman with torpor. :rolleyes:

edit : oh and yeah I am one of those 60 shaman that wear fungi and bag vindi bp most of the time, and also cast regen on myself

From earlier in the thread:
at 60 you don't grind, you farm, and whether that's in a group or solo it's not about optimum efficiency, it's just about having enough to get the job done.

Just in case that isn't clear: it doesn't matter how long it takes to kill something ... IF you're just going to sit there and do nothing after, while you wait for the respawn. Since Verant never put a ton of named mobs with good loot together in the same room, and mobs with good loot tend to have significant respawn time, there's a practical upper limit to how many such mobs a Shaman can farm at once (and even within that limit there is diminishing returns: you kill the mobs with the best loot first and it gets worse from there).

The "most clustered" nameds I can think of are places like Seb Crypt or PoM A4, where you have several nameds in rooms close together, and if the server isn't busy a single Shaman can do all of them. It's been awhile since I did Crypt, but I do A4 all the time (modulo 22; he's not worth the hassle to me). When I do, I have like half an hour of sitting on my hands after I finish, so there is zero benefit to killing the mobs any faster ... and having 35 minutes to sit on my hands.

So look, you can calculate numbers on the back of a napkin all you want, but ultimately the in-game context matters. If that context is that you're farming HQ ore in Permafrost by killing low level mobs, I'll agree with you: you should Regrowth yourself to kill faster :) And maybe a Troll can even farm 20pp/hour (or whatever) faster at 60 in Permafrost. But to me that doesn't make them the better race at 60, when Ogres can survive more (even if only by the tiniest of fractions) on the hard fights.

sonofbaal

06-13-2020, 06:46 PM

From earlier in the thread:

Just in case that isn't clear: it doesn't matter how long it takes to kill something ... IF you're just going to sit there and do nothing after, while you wait for the respawn. Since Verant never put a ton of named mobs with good loot together in the same room, and mobs with good loot tend to have significant respawn time, there's a practical upper limit to how many such mobs a Shaman can farm at once (and even within that limit there is diminishing returns: you kill the mobs with the best loot first and it gets worse from there).

The "most clustered" nameds I can think of are places like Seb Crypt or PoM A4, where you have several nameds in rooms close together, and if the server isn't busy a single Shaman can do all of them. It's been awhile since I did Crypt, but I do A4 all the time (modulo 22; he's not worth the hassle to me). When I do, I have like half an hour of sitting on my hands after I finish, so there is zero benefit to killing the mobs any faster ... and having 35 minutes to sit on my hands.

So look, you can calculate numbers on the back of a napkin all you want, but ultimately the in-game context matters. If that context is that you're farming HQ ore in Permafrost by killing low level mobs, I'll agree with you: you should Regrowth yourself to kill faster :) And maybe a Troll can even farm 20pp/hour (or whatever) faster at 60 in Permafrost. But to me that doesn't make them the better race at 60, when Ogres can survive more (even if only by the tiniest of fractions) on the hard fights.

also don't forget, getting off a spell earlier that wasn't bashed can save health as well.
Do you think in an hour of a hard camp you would save 7000ish health from fsi?

loramin

06-13-2020, 07:11 PM

You'd have to ask a 60 Ogre Shaman :) I have a 60 Shaman, and I have an Ogre ... but not both at once.

To be honest though, I doubt it saves anywhere close to that much, just based on the numbers I've seen thrown around.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-13-2020, 07:56 PM

also don't forget, getting off a spell earlier that wasn't bashed can save health as well.
Do you think in an hour of a hard camp you would save 7000ish health from fsi?

You keep thinking in terms of HP per hour. That doesnt really matter for a Torpor Shaman. You can recover your entire HP and Mana pool in 5 minutes or less. Loramin gave some great, practical examples of Shaman camps, and the downtime you have between pops.

Even in Chardok where respawn times are quick, recovery is not an issue between spawns. The problem is dying. Preventing dying is more important than getting 4 free torpors of health per hour from 8 HP regen per tick. That is saving 2 minutes of Torporing per hour. Dying takes longer than 2 minutes to recover from. FSI gives you a better leg up in terms of preventing death.

EDIT: Also, people keep assuming you will be under 100% HP for the full hour. This is not true on a Torpor Shaman. I am often at full HP and Mana in between spawns. At that point, regeneration is doing just as much good as Frontal Stun Immunity. You are saving 2 minutes of Torporing per hour at BEST, assuming you can always keep your HP under 100%. In a 10 minute fight, you are mitigating 800 HP in damage at BEST. On a hard monster, that is roughly 4-6 hits, at best. If your fight was solely determined by an extra 4-6 hits, it was a super close fight. FSI could have saved you as well in that kind of a razor close fight.

To Baler's earlier point about mitigating DoTs with regeneration. You can get high resistances on a Shaman. There are other ways to reduce DoT damage than raw regeneration. Resisting the DoT completely is a good alternative. If the difference between life and death was a reduction in DoT damage by 8 damage per tick, it was also a very close fight.

Baler

06-13-2020, 10:15 PM

To Baler's earlier point about mitigating DoTs with regeneration. You can get high resistances on a Shaman. There are other ways to reduce DoT damage than raw regeneration. Resisting the DoT completely is a good alternative. If the difference between life and death was a reduction in DoT damage by 8 damage per tick, it was also a very close fight.

Resistances have ZERO to do with racial bonus difference between ogre and troll.
invalid point on this topic. Both races can stack resistances, woo woopty doo.

----
Troll
=Racial Regen
==+12 hp standing
==+14 hp feigned (shaman can FD, bet you didn't know that)
==+18 hp Sitting
==Reduced damage taken per tick by amount of additional regen
===Dot, Melee, DD, etc (if you take 20 damage, then server tick, you recovered 12, making that damage 8)
==Can't be blocked / turned off / disabled
==Saves a lot of time canni dancing during your shaman career
==Faster wipe recovery
==Possible difference between life and death

Has no downside.

Ogre
=Frontal Stun Immunity
==Frontal 180 degrees only
==Stun Immunity only
==Saves a few seconds in some fights
===only enough time saved for 1 spell or less per stun
==Possible difference between life and death

Downsides
Can be stunned from behind 180 degrees
Doesn't prevent interrupts or being pushed

Torpor
=Troll
==+312 hp Standing
==+314 hp Feigned
==+318 hp Sitting

=Ogre
==+304 hp Standing
==+305 hp Feigned
==+307 hp Sitting

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 10:22 AM

Resistances have ZERO to do with racial bonus difference between ogre and troll.
invalid point on this topic. Both races can stack resistances, woo woopty doo.

----
Troll
=Racial Regen
==+12 hp standing
==+14 hp feigned (shaman can FD, bet you didn't know that)
==+18 hp Sitting
==Reduced damage taken per tick by amount of additional regen
===Dot, Melee, DD, etc (if you take 20 damage, then server tick, you recovered 12, making that damage 8)
==Can't be blocked / turned off / disabled
==Saves a lot of time canni dancing during your shaman career
==Faster wipe recovery
==Possible difference between life and death

Has no downside.

Ogre
=Frontal Stun Immunity
==Frontal 180 degrees only
==Stun Immunity only
==Saves a few seconds in some fights
===only enough time saved for 1 spell or less per stun
==Possible difference between life and death

Downsides
Can be stunned from behind 180 degrees
Doesn't prevent interrupts or being pushed

Torpor
=Troll
==+312 hp Standing
==+314 hp Feigned
==+318 hp Sitting

=Ogre
==+304 hp Standing
==+305 hp Feigned
==+307 hp Sitting

No one here has argued about the utility of regeneration before you get Torpor. I am talking about which race is better with Torpor.

Yes, equipment does play a role in this discussion. You can get HP regeneration gear. You can't get FSI gear. Most DoTs a solo Shaman will encounter are consistently resistable. The HP regeneration isn't anywhere near make or break when you are dotted, and you can usually avoid being dotted with gear.

Regenration only works while your HP isn't full. On a Torpor Shaman, you HP bar is often full, due to how easy it is to heal youself between fights.

During a 10 minute fight, you gain 800 HP at best on a Troll. That is only 4-6 hits from a tough mob. Any fight that is decided by 800 hp is a super close fight. FSI could save you in a fight like that too.

Needing to regenerate while FD is a very rare use case for Shamans. You would need to FD in a bad spot, where you will get attacked after you get up. FSI is useful in this situation too. You have a better chance of getting a spell off after you stand up and start getting attacked.

You also keep ignoring the fact that stuns interrupt spells. Not being stunned means the spell can finish casting, if the bash component didn't trigger an interrupt. On a Troll, a bash with a stun is a guaranteed interrupt. It is not guaranteed on an Ogre.

Baler

06-14-2020, 01:20 PM

During a 10 minute fight, you gain 800 HP at best on a Troll. That is only 4-6 hits from a tough mob. Any fight that is decided by 800 hp is a super close fight. FSI could save you in a fight like that too.

Needing to regenerate while FD is a very rare use case for Shamans. You would need to FD in a bad spot, where you will get attacked after you get up. FSI is useful in this situation too. You have a better chance of getting a spell off after you stand up and start getting attacked.

You also keep ignoring the fact that stuns interrupt spells. Not being stunned means the spell can finish casting, if the bash component didn't trigger an interrupt. On a Troll, a bash with a stun is a guaranteed interrupt. It is not guaranteed on an Ogre.

Racial Regen works before a fight, after a fight and continues on forever.
It makes buffing yourself and others quicker and a smoother process.
it makes recovering from the fight quicker and smoother.

You are correct needing regen for FD is rare for shm. But that's simply because the FD the shaman gets is basiclly a Toy, has 2 charges and can be recharged once in the field for 4 feign deaths total. I just wanted to throw it in there because after a successful FD (running down into a dungeon solo) you'll be regening your hp faster.

Finally, I have not ignored the fact that FSI grants 180 degree frontal stun immunity. If you're stunned you can't cast spells. I havn't been ignoring this. I've been saying that it only affects frontal stuns, it doesn't affect regular interrupts or being pushed. Which means you're sacrificing more HP every tick for 0 to 20 seconds of stun time per fight. And it's pretty god damn rare that you'll be stunned for 20 seconds during a fight. Which unless you've forgotten will be in 2-5s segements. So a 10 minute fight with say 5 stuns that lasted 4 seconds each. You talk about an able torpor shaman, why isnt your god damn torpor up to cover these very short moments during a fight?

I'm telling you folks these ogre loving *** will refuse to the very end because they've been told what's best without trying it for themselves. I've played every race except iksar at level 60 with torpor in raid gear. And i'll tell you right god damn now..

Troll Shaman > Ogre Shaman

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 03:08 PM

Racial Regen works before a fight, after a fight and continues on forever.
It makes buffing yourself and others quicker and a smoother process.
it makes recovering from the fight quicker and smoother.

You are correct needing regen for FD is rare for shm. But that's simply because the FD the shaman gets is basiclly a Toy, has 2 charges and can be recharged once in the field for 4 feign deaths total. I just wanted to throw it in there because after a successful FD (running down into a dungeon solo) you'll be regening your hp faster.

Finally, I have not ignored the fact that FSI grants 180 degree frontal stun immunity. If you're stunned you can't cast spells. I havn't been ignoring this. I've been saying that it only affects frontal stuns, it doesn't affect regular interrupts or being pushed. Which means you're sacrificing more HP every tick for 0 to 20 seconds of stun time per fight. And it's pretty god damn rare that you'll be stunned for 20 seconds during a fight. Which unless you've forgotten will be in 2-5s segements. So a 10 minute fight with say 5 stuns that lasted 4 seconds each. You talk about an able torpor shaman, why isnt your god damn torpor up to cover these very short moments during a fight?

I'm telling you folks these ogre loving *** will refuse to the very end because they've been told what's best without trying it for themselves. I've played every race except iksar at level 60 with torpor in raid gear. And i'll tell you right god damn now..

Troll Shaman > Ogre Shaman

The reason why I keep saying you are ignoring Stuns is because you keep making the assumption that Torpor is always up. Any 60 Shaman knows that Torpor can be interrupted. It has a 6 second cast time. Any interrupt to a Torpor cast means you are Torpor-less for 8 seconds at least (2 for the stun, 6 for recast). You are also somehow thinking a 60 Shaman doesn't know how to keep a mob in front of them. Even without FSI, you never want a mob to attack you from behind. You lose your ability to dodge. The only time a mob will attack you from behind is if you make a mistake in understanding the zone you are fighting in. This would be something like a pathing mob sneaking up on you, not keeping respawn timers, etc. That is a deadly mistake for any Shaman race, and no racial will help you then.

If you get interrupted on a Slow when a mob is hitting you, you are losing a LOT of HP in the 6 seconds or so it takes to re-cast Turgurs insects. The 16 HP you will regain in 12 seconds will not hold a candle to the damage you have taken. This is where an Ogre shines. The Ogre may not get interrupted on that Slow, which means they have saved 6 seconds or more of un-slowed attacks. When fighting WW dragons, for example, getting hit unslowed for 10 seconds or so can easily go above the total HP you will recover for the entire fight as a Troll. Ogres can completely prevent that 10 seconds of damage by getting the slow landed right away.

If you suggest that HP regeneration as a damage mitigation tool is superior to FSI, then your Troll master race argument fails anyway. Iksars have an AC bonus AND better racial resistances, making them the best race, under that logic.

In terms of Soloing, HP regeneration barely plays a roll in recovering from a fight. You can fully recover in 5 minutes or less. 8 HP regeneration per tick in 5 minutes is 400 HP. That is 1/3 of a Torpor. So you save maybe 30 seconds of recovery time at best, if that 400 hp allows you to cast one less torpor.

In terms of raid recovery, yes Trolls and Iksars have an edge. However, most big raid guilds have more Shamans than they need. So most raids get Shaman buffs extremely quickly anyway in reality. The lack of Troll/Iksar regeneration will not cause your raid to lose a mob in. I have been on a lot of raid where time was a factor, and a lost mob was never caused by a slight slowdown in Shaman buffs.

I play an Ogre and a Troll regularly. I can easily see the differences in how often they get interrupted spell wise. The Troll gets interrupted more, due to stuns.

Baler

06-14-2020, 04:01 PM

The reason why I keep saying you are ignoring Stuns is because you keep making the assumption that Torpor is always up. Any 60 Shaman knows that Torpor can be interrupted. It has a 6 second cast time. Any interrupt to a Torpor cast means you are Torpor-less for 8 seconds at least (2 for the stun, 6 for recast). You are also somehow thinking a 60 Shaman doesn't know how to keep a mob in front of them. Even without FSI, you never want a mob to attack you from behind. You lose your ability to dodge. The only time a mob will attack you from behind is if you make a mistake in understanding the zone you are fighting in. This would be something like a pathing mob sneaking up on you, not keeping respawn timers, etc. That is a deadly mistake for any Shaman race, and no racial will help you then.
You're the one who brought torpor being the topic of discussion at this point into view.
You continue to ignore the points I made blindly spouting nothingness about why fsi is better but not proving it is.
Dragging irrelevant info like spawn timers, give me a break. This is a discussion about troll vs ogre.

If you get interrupted on a Slow when a mob is hitting you, you are losing a LOT of HP in the 6 seconds or so it takes to re-cast Turgurs insects. The 16 HP you will regain in 12 seconds will not hold a candle to the damage you have taken. This is where an Ogre shines. The Ogre may not get interrupted on that Slow, which means they have saved 6 seconds or more of un-slowed attacks. When fighting WW dragons, for example, getting hit unslowed for 10 seconds or so can easily go above the total HP you will recover for the entire fight as a Troll. Ogres can completely prevent that 10 seconds of damage by getting the slow landed right away.
If you're not keeping the target slowed 99% of the time you're just a bad shaman, it doesn't matter what race you are.

If you suggest that HP regeneration as a damage mitigation tool is superior to FSI, then your Troll master race argument fails anyway. Iksars have an AC bonus AND better racial resistances, making them the best race, under that logic.
I only brought the additional hp per tick as a damage mitigation tool in the scope of troll vs ogre.
Yes iksar does get an AC bonus but is not the min/max race for shaman. More irrelevance.

In terms of Soloing, HP regeneration barely plays a roll in recovering from a fight. You can fully recover in 5 minutes or less. 8 HP regeneration per tick in 5 minutes is 400 HP. That is 1/3 of a Torpor. So you save maybe 30 seconds of recovery time at best, if that 400 hp allows you to cast one less torpor.
trust me 30 seconds of recovery time is HUGE after a raid wipe or group wipe. And it continues on into buffing your party.
30 seconds less buffing
30 seconds less recovering
etc, that shit adds up.

In terms of raid recovery, yes Trolls and Iksars have an edge. However, most big raid guilds have more Shamans than they need. So most raids get Shaman buffs extremely quickly anyway in reality. The lack of Troll/Iksar regeneration will not cause your raid to lose a mob in. I have been on a lot of raid where time was a factor, and a lost mob was never caused by a slight slowdown in Shaman buffs.
Iksars don't have the edge because their stats are that of a human and require even more twinkage to hit those 200 stats markers.
Other than slow, a shaman has never made or breaked a raid. I'm really not seeing what you're trying to say here. As if FSI is going to somehow make the raid better when the raid mob is punching the warrior in the face, not the shaman. Regen still wins on this null point.

I play an Ogre and a Troll regularly. I can easily see the differences in how often they get interrupted spell wise. The Troll gets interrupted more, due to stuns.

Stuns. Period. that's it, they still get interrupted and pushed the same as troll.
stop repeating yourself, you're making me repeat myself.

----------
Cannibalize IV
Decrease Hitpoints by 148

Per Tick Standing
Troll -136 HP per Canni 4
Ogre -143 HP per Canni 4

Racial Regen still winning

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 04:57 PM

You're the one who brought torpor being the topic of discussion at this point into view.
You continue to ignore the points I made blindly spouting nothingness about why fsi is better but not proving it is.
Dragging irrelevant info like spawn timers, give me a break. This is a discussion about troll vs ogre.

If you're not keeping the target slowed 99% of the time you're just a bad shaman, it doesn't matter what race you are.

I only brought the additional hp per tick as a damage mitigation tool in the scope of troll vs ogre.
Yes iksar does get an AC bonus but is not the min/max race for shaman. More irrelevance.

trust me 30 seconds of recovery time is HUGE after a raid wipe or group wipe. And it continues on into buffing your party.
30 seconds less buffing
30 seconds less recovering
etc, that shit adds up.

Iksars don't have the edge because their stats are that of a human and require even more twinkage to hit those 200 stats markers.
Other than slow, a shaman has never made or breaked a raid. I'm really not seeing what you're trying to say here. As if FSI is going to somehow make the raid better when the raid mob is punching the warrior in the face, not the shaman. Regen still wins on this null point.

Stuns. Period. that's it, they still get interrupted and pushed the same as troll.
stop repeating yourself, you're making me repeat myself.

----------
Cannibalize IV
Decrease Hitpoints by 148

Per Tick Standing
Troll -136 HP per Canni 4
Ogre -143 HP per Canni 4

Racial Regen still winning

I have been talking about a Shaman with Torpor the entire time lol. Read my first post in this thread. I have also said multiple times in this thread Trolls are better BEFORE Torpor. Not sure where you saw otherwise. I have always been discussing Ogres at endgame, with Torpor. Ogres are better than Trolls once you have Torpor due to FSI.

You somehow live in a world where your Shaman never gets slow resists, or slow interrupts. This isn't how the game works when you are fighting hard targets, and multiple mobs. Sometimes things go wrong. A slow gets interrupted, a slow gets resisted, a fizzle occurs, you get stunned from an attack, a mob gets a lucky string of max damage hits, etc. These happen to all races. The exception is stuns on an Ogre.

You still don't understand how bash has two components. A stun, and a chance to interrupt your spell. The stun component is a guaranteed spell interruption. The spell interruption component is NOT a 100% chance to interrupt your spell. You can see this in action on any race, if you don't believe me. On other races, you can get bashed without a stun. When this occurs, you still have a chance to land your spell. I have seen this happen multiple times on my Troll. He gets bashed without a stun, and his casting finishes anyway. When my Troll gets stunned, however, he always gets interrupted on his cast. By removing stun from the equation, you reduce the amount of times you get spells interrupted. Period. This is a fact. Ogres get less spell interrupts, due to stun immunity.

I really don't understand how you can say "30 seconds is a big deal" and "spawn timers are irrelevant" in the same comment. If 30 seconds is a big deal, that is due to mob spawn timers lol. What are you going to use that 30 extra seconds for, if you are no longer fighting anything? Sitting at full HP/Mana for 15 minutes is the same as sitting at full HP/Mana for 14.5 minutes when you are waiting for a respawn. If you are keeping multiple mobs down, then spawn timers are relevant. You do not want mobs respawning on you when you are unprepared. When you are camping things, you want to keep all the mobs down, to maximize how many kills per hour you get.

I have been on a lot of raids, so I do not need to "trust" you about raid recoveries:) I have never seen any top guild exclude Barbarian/Ogre shamans due to their lack of 8 extra HP regen. It is not a big enough factor to cause the raid to lose a mob. That is a fact. Too many shamans in raids is another common fact. Saying Trolls/Iksars are some sort of game changer in raids is just false.

Also, the Iksar comment is not irrelevant. In Velious, all Shaman races can max their stats. The only tangible difference between Troll and Iksar is their ability to use JBB vs. their extra AC and resistances. Every other difference disappears with high end gear. If you want to say that HP regeneration is a superior damage mitigation tool than Stun/Spell interrupt reduction, then you would concede that Iksars are better due to their additional mitigation from AC and resistances.

Baler

06-14-2020, 05:01 PM

Guesty07

06-14-2020, 05:07 PM

Ogre every time. Although I'll be going Iksar for the looks.

Baler

06-14-2020, 05:09 PM

Ogre every time. Although I'll be going Iksar for the looks.

:rolleyes:
No one cares that troll is better.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 05:15 PM

Let's agree to disagree...
DeathsSilkyMist thinks ogre is best
Baler thinks troll is best

You won't change my mind, I can't change your mind.
We'll just be going in circles.

Let the people decide based on the evidence we 'both' provided. :)

We can agree to disagree:) I just want to make sure people understand the proper game mechanics for bash. You can easily do the experiment yourself.

A monster that bashes you does not always stun you. This is true on any race. On my 56 Troll Shadowknight, I have seen many monsters bash me while I am casting a spell. When that bash does not stun me, I can usually finish casting my spell. Not always, but a good chunk of the time. When the bash stuns me, however, I NEVER get to finish casting my spell.

This is how Frontal Stun Immunity reduces spell interrupts. By removing the stun component on a bash, Ogres never have to worry about the automatic spell interrupt from a stun. All bashes from the front become non-stun bashes, which means you always have a decent chance of landing a spell after being bashed.

EDIT: I can also show the factual math for Troll regeneration in a long fight. I just did a WW Dragon on my Shaman. It took me 15 minutes to get the WW Dragon down to 20%. In a 15 minute fight, a Troll would regenerate 1200 more HP than an Ogre. That means a Troll would get one free Torpor in this fight. This is why racial regeneration becomes way less relevant with Torpor. Even in one of the longer fights you can do, you are saving one Torpor. If a fight is determined by one Torpor, that fight was already extremely close. An extremely close fight like that could have be saved with FSI too.

DMN

06-14-2020, 05:40 PM

On a slowed mob at 60 you will be getting stunned on average less than 1 time per minute.

Or said in another way if a shaman was standing in melee all the time with one mob ( typical soloing situation for a level 60 shaman) the non-ogre would spend about 2%-2.5% of their combat time being stunned. The chance that stun time will overlap an absolutely critical moment that will determine the entire outcome of the fight is virtually zero given the "marathon" strategy shaman employ to solo at 60.

You have to decide for yourself if that's worth giving up regen but more importantly at 60 -- snare.

Baler

06-14-2020, 05:43 PM

You have to decide for yourself if that's worth giving up regen but more importantly at 60 -- snare.

SHHH
stfu, that's my secret weapon to cast down all the ogre fanboys when the sun sets.
(snare that works on ayillish, fear golems and more btw)

Let the ogres beat their face against a wall and tell us it's the right thing to do.
We'll be regening health sipping icy margaritas

----
Okay I'll drop another bomb of knowledge....

Troll Shaman,.. gets... Halfling Illusion

There I said it publicly.
Giving away all my secrets :o

Min/Max is TROLL

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 05:46 PM

Baler

06-14-2020, 05:46 PM

I have the snare neck on a different character. It is pretty bad tbh. 6 ticks, and the snare speed is so low that the mobs need to be at 10% to stop running, instead of 20%. Get a spear of constriction if you want to snare:)

Shaman doesn't get snare, Which makes it really good on shaman.
As a Clickie and not a Proc.

Troll can use both the Clickie & the Spear Proc.
Troll winning

----

ps. It's not really bad. The farm crew that was monopolizing fear golems was duoing / trioing with a troll shaman who used the snare clickie to stop fleeing golems from bringing adds to their camp. It's very good.

I use it to prevent WW dragons I solo from fleeing into the ocean. It's very good.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 05:50 PM

Baler

06-14-2020, 05:52 PM

It is true that Shamans don't get snare. They rarely need it though. You face tank or root rot. The snare neck uses the worst snare in the game. 6 Ticks, low snare speed, and a 6 second cast time. So you really only get 4-5 ticks if you want to keep it on the mob.

any snare vs no castable snare
I'll take any castable snare that works on level 57+ mobs, thanks.

Castable means no dancing around waiting for the RNG system to proc.

The difference of adds that kill you vs no adds at all.
hmm, didn't you try to bring this into the topic earlier. Funny how I just validated it for TROLL and not ogre.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 05:55 PM

any snare vs no castable snare
I'll take any castable snare that works on level 57+ mobs, thanks.

Castable means no dancing around waiting for the RNG system to proc.

The difference of adds that kill you vs no adds at all.
hmm, didn't you try to bring this into the topic earlier. Funny how I just validated it for TROLL and not ogre.

Not really. You need to click it every 20 seconds or so, and the mob still runs until 10% health. You have root. It's only useful when trying to prevent a caster mob from casting, but you need to wait until 10% for that to work.

Baler

06-14-2020, 05:59 PM

Not really. You need to click it every 20 seconds or so, and the mob still runs until 10% health. You have root. It's only useful when trying to prevent a caster mob from casting, but you need to wait until 10% for that to work.

It's mana free and can be used prior to using the spear proc (if you need the spear lol) to slow movement speed of the mob from fleeing into adds, water, etc.

I'm not sure why you're hung up on 10% life for it to become snare-rooted. It's literally a free snare to use on fleeing mobs. Better yet, Cast it just before they flee to min/max the distance they travel.

The difference is night and day having the clickie snare and not having it. Of course like any snare, it's situational. But it sure as hell is a +1 for troll

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 06:01 PM

Baler

06-14-2020, 06:03 PM

The problem here is casting every 20 seconds. Spear is also mana free, and it lasts 13 minutes lol. You just need to proc it once.

The 10% is a problem because you have root for mobs that need to run. For mobs that should be snared, like casters, you need to wait longer to stop them from casting. Then, you need to cast the necklace every 20 seconds, assuming no resists.

For those unaware Spear of Constriction (https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction) drops in Veeshan's Peak from Xygoz (https://wiki.project1999.com/Xygoz) and is No Drop.

You can get the clickie snare by level, 30, through a simple quest.

Trolls can use both the clickie and the spear!
And as I stated earlier but he oh so seemed to ignore. You can clickie snare and then proc the spear.

Don't let this elitist ogre fanboy play jedi mind tricks on you.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 06:07 PM

For those unaware Spear of Constriction drops in Veeshan's Peak from Xygoz and is No Drop.

You can get the clickie snare by level, 30, through a simple quest.

Don't let this elitist ogre fanboy play jedi mind tricks on you.

I'm just showing the downsides to the necklace. Not sure where the problem is here. It really isn't a great item overall, and if you REALLY want snare, there is a way better item out there anyone can use.

Baler

06-14-2020, 06:10 PM

I'm just showing the downsides to the necklace. Not sure where the problem is here. It really isn't a great item overall, and if you REALLY want snare, there is a way better item out there anyone can use.

I do have the spear and it's very good. As you said it's a nice long duration and as shaman who can buff our own dex. The proc isn't all that bad.

But I simply can't award any points to ogre for this.
It only bolsters the Trolls arsenal with an additional snare. Troll shaman gets two snares. +1 troll

simplified
spear +1 ogre | +1 troll
clickie +1 troll
Troll = +2 <-- winner
Ogre = +1

DMN

06-14-2020, 06:13 PM

I'm just showing the downsides to the necklace. Not sure where the problem is here. It really isn't a great item overall, and if you REALLY want snare, there is a way better item out there anyone can use.

It adds an entirely new feature to the class. It's not OMG overpowered or anything. But it will save you mana in group situations if you don't have another snarer n groups, it can be used to split spawns a non-troll would find impossible to split, and it can be used to ghetto fear kite dangerous spell casters in combination with blindness.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 06:16 PM

I do have the spear and it's very good. As you said it's a nice long duration and as shaman who can buff our own dex. The proc isn't all that bad.

But I simply can't award any points to ogre for this.
It only bolsters the Trolls arsenal with an additional snare. Troll shaman gets two snares. +1 troll

Of course, having an item is always better than not having an item. I can't argue there:D

The main question is what is better: 8 HP regeneration and a snare necklace that has little practical use, or Frontal Stun Immunity. I say FSI, due to it's ability to get you out of bad situations, and the fact that it cannot be acquired on gear.

All Shamans can get plenty of worn regeneration and a spear of constriction.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 06:20 PM

It adds an entirely new feature to the class. It's not OMG overpowered or anything. But it will save you mana in group situations if you don't have another snarer n groups, it can be used to split spawns a non-troll would find impossible to split, and it can be used to ghetto fear kite dangerous spell casters in combination with blindness.

What spawns is a snare able to split that a non-snare cannot split? Never heard of this. I 100% agree the snare neck can pair with blind, but it is hardly usable in a dangerous dungeon. The snare % is so low the mob will still travel unhealthy distances in a relatively quick amount of time. I do a lot of fear kiting on my Shadowknight, so I know a thing or two about the dos and don'ts of fear kiting in tight spaces.

Baler

06-14-2020, 06:21 PM

All Shamans can get plenty of worn regeneration and a spear of constriction.

I'm glad you brought this up.

Troll = (42 hp standing | 48 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+12 standing | +18 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Ogre (34 hp standing | 37 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+4 standing | +7 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Let's go back to my Canni 4 example
Cannibalize IV
Decrease Hitpoints by 148

Per Tick Standing
Troll -136 HP per Canni 4
Ogre -143 HP per Canni 4

Racial Regen still winning

With the above proposed regen per tick.
Troll - 106 HP Canni 4 standing per tick
Ogre - 114 HP Canni 4 standing per tick

Shaman
Life = Mana = Life

racial regen increases life regen, which effectively increases mana :)

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 06:27 PM

I'm glad you brought this up.

Troll = (42 hp standing | 48 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+12 standing | +18 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Ogre (34 hp standing | 37 hp sitting) per tick
Racial Regen (+4 standing | +7 hp sitting) hp per tick
Regrowth +15 hp per tick
Fungi +15 hp per tick

Let's go back to my Canni 4 example

With the above proposed regen per tick.
Troll - 106 HP Canni 4 standing per tick
Ogre - 114 HP Canni 4 standing per tick

Yes, pre-Torpor Trolls get a nice boost I never denied that. Post Torpor, the boost is barely noticeable.

Troll = 344 max regeneration with Torpor(you forgot about +2 from bear form!).
Ogre = 336 max regeneration with Torpor.

8 HP regeneration is 2.4% of 336. Not a big boost. Pre-Torpor, the difference is 22%, which is pretty damn good.

DMN

06-14-2020, 06:29 PM

What spawns is a snare able to split that a non-snare cannot split? Never heard of this. I 100% agree the snare neck can pair with blind, but it is hardly usable in a dangerous dungeon. The snare % is so low the mob will still travel unhealthy distances in a relatively quick amount of time. I do a lot of fear kiting on my Shadowknight, so I know a thing or two about the dos and don'ts of fear kiting in tight spaces.

Say a room has 3 pretty tough enemies and you don't like your chances trying take them on all at once. You target 1 enemy you don't want to kill first. Root him. Now the other 2 rush you, now you root one of the other ones you don't want to fight first, leaving you with the one you want to kill. Now you pull tht one back a bit away from the others you have rooted, snare him and immediately camp out. If you have a decent computer/HD you should be able to log back in to grab the snared one without aggroing the others.

Edit: will only be possible during velious timeline due to snare/root stacking.

As far as fear kiting goes, SKs don't have anywhere near the effective killing power of shaman, so shaman can more easily "make a little more elbow room" for himself.

Baler

06-14-2020, 06:31 PM

Yes, pre-Torpor Trolls get a nice boost I never denied that. Post Torpor, the boost is barely noticeable.

Troll = 344 max regeneration with Torpor(you forgot about +2 from bear form!).
Ogre = 336 max regeneration with Torpor.

8 HP regeneration is 2.4% of 336. Not a big boost. Pre-Torpor, the difference is 22%, which is pretty damn good.

I didn't want to bring up form of the great bear because barbarian polar bear is too cool.
But yes I did 'forget' to add it.

Allow me to paraphrase what you said earlier in the topic "Shaman won't have torpor up 100% of the time" Meaning that racial regen is getting you bigger hp ticks while it's down.
troll even gets racial regen ticks while frontal bashed stunned, lol.

I'll even admit when I solo ayillish my torpor uptime hovers around 94-96% uptime. And I do suffer hp/mana loss because it's not up 100% of the time. but that racial regen helps keep me in the green when it goes down by mistake or on purpose. getting hit for 200+ damage i'll take any mitigation I can against that. Fully self buffed included in that damage number.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 06:36 PM

Say a room has 3 pretty tough enemies and you don't like your chances trying take them on all at once. You target 1 enemy you don't want to kill first. Root him. Now the other 2 rush you, now you root one of the other ones you don't want to fight first, leaving you with the one you want to kill. Now you pull tht one back a bit away from the others you have rooted, snare him and immediately camp out. If you have a decent computer/HD you should be able to log back in to grab the snared one without aggroing the others.

As far as fear kiting goes, SKs don't have anywhere near the effective killing power of shaman, so shaman can more easily "make a little more elbow room" for himself.

Ah I see what you are saying. This wouldn't work with the snare neck. It only lasts 6 ticks. Camping is also 6 ticks. Snare will literally wear off the second you camp out. The mob will start pathing back immediately. If you can log out/in that fast, root would work exactly the same. You root the mob, camp out, come back in as it starts pathing back.

I understand SK's cant kill as fast, but SK's can do a lot more shenanigans in cramped spaces, due to clickies and better snares. Clinging Darkness is a terrible snare, and the mob still runs pretty fast for an area where you have little wiggle room.

DMN

06-14-2020, 06:45 PM

Ah I see what you are saying. This wouldn't work with the snare neck. It only lasts 6 ticks. Camping is also 6 ticks. Snare will literally wear off the second you camp out. The mob will start pathing back immediately. If you can log out/in that fast, root would work exactly the same. You root the mob, camp out, come back in as it starts pathing back.

camping is 30 seconds, the snare is 36-41 seconds long depending on when it lands.

Edit: and root instantly breaks on zoning/camping because it has variable duration. You could actually do it with root but you would need a really large runway to pull it off, which you often won't have in dungeons.

I understand SK's cant kill as fast, but SK's can do a lot more shenanigans in cramped spaces, due to clickies and better snares. Clinging Darkness is a terrible snare, and the mob still runs pretty fast for an area where you have little wiggle room.

Clinging is a terrible snare if you can reliably cast a better snare. But if you can't, it's a damn fine snare.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 06:53 PM

I didn't want to bring up form of the great bear because barbarian polar bear is too cool.
But yes I did 'forget' to add it.

Allow me to paraphrase what you said earlier in the topic "Shaman won't have torpor up 100% of the time" Meaning that racial regen is getting you bigger hp ticks while it's down.
troll even gets racial regen ticks while frontal bashed stunned, lol.

I'll even admit when I solo ayillish my torpor uptime hovers around 94-96% uptime. And I do suffer hp/mana loss because it's not up 100% of the time. but that racial regen helps keep me in the green when it goes down by mistake or on purpose. getting hit for 200+ damage i'll take any mitigation I can against that. Fully self buffed included in that damage number.

Don't get me wrong, regeneration is always useful. I never said otherwise. I still use Fungi Staff when fighting WW Dragons. I am not moving, I don't need SoW, and every bit of mitigation helps.

The reality is there are usually only two modes a solo Shaman operates in:
1. Completely in control of the fight. Torpor always up, slow always up, spells unresisted, etc.
2. Not in control of the fight. Some combination of bad Torpor interrupts, slow interrupts, spell resists, unlucky root breaks, etc.

In situation 1, an extra 8 HP regeneration isn't making a difference. You should never be at a point where you have a dangerous amount of HP, or Mana.

In situation 2, 12 seconds can be the difference between life and death. A Torpor landing, when it would otherwise be interrupted by a stun, will save you. 16 HP from regeneration will not save you.

That is the major difference in our ideas. You are thinking about the long game (getting 4 free Torpors per hour), and I am thinking about the short game (not dying in 12 seconds).

The real debate here is which is better to think about: The long game, or the short game. I argue the short game, due to how fast shamans can regain HP and Mana. If it only takes you 5 minutes to regain full HP/Mana, Troll regeneration is only netting you 400 HP, or 1/3 of a Torpor. That is saving 30 seconds, max. After you are full HP/Mana, your regeneration stops working.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 07:10 PM

camping is 30 seconds, the snare is 36-41 seconds long depending on when it lands.

Edit: and root instantly breaks on zoning/camping because it has variable duration. You could actually do it with root but you would need a really large runway to pull it off, which you often won't have in dungeons.

Clinging is a terrible snare if you can reliably cast a better snare. But if you can't, it's a damn fine snare.

That is my bad, clinging is 36 seconds. Brain fart:D

That is a good point, it would be easier to pull that off in tight spaces, assuming you can log in/out without crashing. I understand the mechanic involving snaring/zoning. I did the math wrong hehe.

My point about the snare % is the same as your point about separating monsters via root and zoning. The runway required is longer, which limits the use cases. Not saying the snare is unusable, but the run speed of the mob is still pretty fast with clinging. The snare is only 30% at best. The lowest Druid snare is 55%. This limits where it can be used for fear kiting significantly.

The nice thing about blind is you can stop the mob from running if you get next to it, so you could limit the mob's movement that way. But then you risk the mob casting a nasty spell, which is why you are fear kiting in the first place.

Baler

06-14-2020, 07:12 PM

After you are full HP/Mana, your regeneration stops working.

Not to diminish your entire post but I saw you try to make this point earlier too

It's invalid.

FSI is only being used when you're facing the mob being hit. Meaning you won't be at full life.

So it's in the same boat as regen, Only saying that regen stops at full life is painting half the picture.

----
BTW Racial Regen does NOT stop at full life, it never stops, nothing can stop it.

unlike FSI the second you turn away from the mob it's doing nothing.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 07:22 PM

Not to diminish your entire post but I saw you try to make this point earlier too

It's invalid.

FSI is only being used when you're facing the mob being hit. Meaning you won't be at full life.

So it's in the same boat as regen, Only saying that regen stops at full life is painting half the picture.

Yes, that is my point exactly, actually:) FSI and Regen really only work in a fight when you have Torpor, due to how quickly you can get back to full HP after the fight. That is what I have been saying for a while now. It shows how racial regeneration is further diminished with Torpor.

If Regeneration and FSI only really matter in a fight, then you look at how much you gain in a fight from each.

In a 15 minute fight, you get 1 Torpor's worth of HP across the entire fight. This assumes you never hit 100% from Torpor, and lose ticks from that.

In a 15 minute fight, you can be stunned many times. I agree you will not always be stunned at a bad time, but Ogres eliminate that possibility. Any poorly timed stun can result in 100s of HP being lost. You can easily lose more than 1200 HP in a fight from some unlucky stuns.

So again, we go back to what do you want more: More consistency in spell casting (and thus less poorly timed stuns), or a consistent 1 extra Torpor per fight. From my experience, a Torpor interrupt at a bad time is more consequential than a free Torpor later in the fight, when I didn't really need it anyway.

Baler

06-14-2020, 07:29 PM

Yes, that is my point exactly, actually:) FSI and Regen really only work in a fight when you have Torpor, due to how quickly you can get back to full HP after the fight. That is what I have been saying for a while now. It shows how racial regeneration is further diminished with Torpor.
There is so much wrong with this... FSI does nothing to help get back to full hp after a fight. Racial regen helps before, during and after a fight. With or without torpor, racial regen wins this.
You're repeating what we talked about. I've stated that with torpor race doesn't matter. But what we are discussing is ogre vs troll.

If Regeneration and FSI only really matter in a fight, then you look at how much you gain in a fight from each.
That's what You're trying to say. Not me. I replied to what you proposed.

I shaved off the last half, because you're just repeating more of what we already talked about and people can find my reponses in previous posts.

FSI applies to frontal stuns
Racial Regen applies to every server tick on the server forever.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 07:34 PM

There is so much wrong with this... FSI does nothing to help get back to full hp after a fight. Racial regen helps before, during and after a fight. With or without torpor, racial regen wins this.
You're repeating what we talked about. I've stated that with torpor race doesn't matter. But what we are discussing is ogre vs troll.

That's what You're trying to say. Not me. I replied to what you proposed.

I shaved off the last half, because you're just repeating more of what we already talked about and people can find my reponses in previous posts.

FSI does help you get back to full HP after a fight. If you do not get interrupted on a critical spell, you will save 100s of HP. This means it takes less time to get back to full HP.

Baler

06-14-2020, 07:35 PM

FSI does help you get back to full HP after a fight. If you do not get interrupted on a critical spell, you will save 100s of HP. This means it takes less time to get back to full HP.

Racial Regen helps outsde of fights as well as during fights. Getting back to full hp is easier all day long, not just inside a stun window.

You ready to start talking about a raid shaman? Because troll takes the advantage there.
buffing 50+ people with FoS.. It will be faster on an equally skilled troll vs an ogre.

You keep hanging onto that 180 frontal stun immunity like it's some ace in your pocket. When I'm sitting here with a royal flush all day.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 07:38 PM

Racial Regen helps outsde of fights as well as during fights. Getting back to full hp is easier all day long, not just inside a stun window.

Yes, you are correct. The problem is you are overestimating the value of regeneration vs. untimely spell interrupts. Regeneration is constant. Spell interrupts are not. A poorly timed stun on a root, for example, will cause you to loose 100s of HP that would not be lost if that root landed, and you could back away from the monster. That IS saving HP as well.

I keep showing you the math. 15 minutes of 8 HP regeneration is 1200 HP. You can easily lose more than 1200 HP due to some bad spell interrupts. I am not sure where that is getting lost here.

Crede

06-14-2020, 07:40 PM

Racial Regen helps outsde of fights as well as during fights. Getting back to full hp is easier all day long, not just inside a stun window.

You ready to start talking about a raid shaman? Because troll takes the advantage there.
buffing 50+ people with FoS.. It will be faster on an equally skilled troll vs an ogre.

You keep hanging onto that 180 frontal stun immunity like it's some ace in your pocket. When I'm sitting here with a royal flush all day.

/thread imo.

But if I rerolled id probably go iksar. For regen, ac, and most importantly better fashion with robes and not having to be a fatty 24/7

Baler

06-14-2020, 07:42 PM

Yes, you are correct. The problem is you are overestimating the value of regeneration vs. untimely spell interrupts. Regeneration is constant. Spell interrupts are not.

You keep saying spell interrupts, it's STUN immunity.

Your spell can be interrupted by
Stun (not if you're facing the mob as an ogre)
interrupt (channeling)
push (xyz coordinates)

I've also solod and can solo any day The Tangrin (https://wiki.project1999.com/The_tangrin)
Damage per hit: 126 - 249
Attacks per round: 2
Special: Summon, Monkey Stun
Has a 20 second stun with a 12 second recast time, and an aggro radius the size of the island he roams.

You wanna talk about being stunned? Let's stop playing kids games and look at some manly stuns.
Troll regen > ogre fsi

ps. tangrin is easier than ayillish but tangrin has gurenteed stun periods

Baler

06-14-2020, 07:43 PM

==Off Topic==
/thread imo.

But if I rerolled id probably go iksar. For regen, ac, and most importantly better fashion with robes and not having to be a fatty 24/7

https://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky
in my opinion one of the very best reasons to roll an iksar shaman :D

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 07:44 PM

1. Troll/Iksar regeneration has never saved a raid. It will never save a raid. Most raid guilds on this server have too many Shamans. Saving 2 minutes on buffing is a very small benefit. No guilds have ever barred entry to Barbarian/Ogre Shamans due to their slight lack of regeneration.

2. Frontal Stun Immunity also works in raids. Accidentally get agro on a mob? You can still land that slow you were casting after it bashes you.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 07:45 PM

You keep saying spell interrupts, it's STUN immunity.

Your spell can be interrupted by
Stun (not if you're facing the mob as an ogre)
interrupt (channeling)
push (xyz coordinates)

I've also solod and can solo any day The Tangrin (https://wiki.project1999.com/The_tangrin)

You wanna talk about being stunned? Let's stop playing kids games and look at some manly stuns.
Troll regen > ogre fsi

How many times must I say it? When you get bashed, there are TWO components here. The stun, and the spell interruption. They are SEPARATE. If you get bashed without a stun, YOU CAN LAND A SPELL. You can test this on your Troll Shaman lol.

Baler

06-14-2020, 07:47 PM

How many times must I say it? When you get bashed, there are TWO components here. The stun, and the spell interruption. They are SEPARATE. If you get bashed without a stun, YOU CAN LAND A SPELL. You can test this on your Troll Shaman lol.

Im not sure why it's not getting through your thick ogre skull

Your spell can be interrupted by
Stun (not if you're facing the mob as an ogre)
interrupt (channeling)
push (xyz coordinates)

Stun = bash
interrupt = damage taken vs your channeling to continue the cast
push is self explanatory.

Great you stopped a bash from stunning and interrupting you.
How about the following non bash hits
That can also move your xyz

Jeez
at no point in this thread have I ever said that the function of bash that causes stun+interrupt were serperate.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 07:51 PM

Im not sure why it's not getting through your thick ogre skull

Stun = bash
interrupt = damage taken vs your channeling to continue the cast
push is self explanatory.

Great you stopped a bash from stunning and interrupting you.
How about the following non bash hits
That can also move your xyz

Jeez

It is very simple. I will break it down in an example:

Lets say you get bashed 5 times in a fight:

1. Bash with stun, and interrupt.
2. Bash with stun, no interrupt.
3. Bash with stun, no interrupt.
4. Bash with stun, no interrupt.
5. Bash with stun, and interrupt.

A Troll would get spell interrupted 5 times. An Ogre will get spell interrupted 2 times. That is LESS spell interrupts lol.

Baler

06-14-2020, 07:53 PM

for fuck sakes. Have a good night man. I'm out.

DMN

06-14-2020, 07:55 PM

It is very simple. I will break it down in an example:

Lets say you get bashed 5 times in a fight:

1. Bash with stun, and interrupt.
2. Bash with stun, no interrupt.
3. Bash with stun, no interrupt.
4. Bash with stun, no interrupt.
5. Bash with stun, and interrupt.

A Troll would get spell interrupted 5 times. An Ogre will get spell interrupted 2 times. That is LESS spell interrupts lol.

There is no way to know whether a non-ogre would ever be interrupted by a non-stunning bash. Similarly an ogre could just as well get interrupt 5 times in a row regardless of not getting stunned. Even worse, he tried to cast a spell and had to eat the entire cast time of the spell instead of the 1.5 second stun time.

sonofbaal

06-14-2020, 08:05 PM

you guys are both bringing up valid points and make this really hard

i did see

https://wiki.project1999.com/Sap_Encrusted_Branch

but the likelyhood of me every getting that prob low

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 08:20 PM

There is no way to know whether a non-ogre would ever be interrupted by a non-stunning bash. Similarly an ogre could just as well get interrupt 5 times in a row regardless of not getting stunned. Even worse, he tried to cast a spell and had to eat the entire cast time of the spell instead of the 1.5 second stun time.

You are correct, there is no 100% fool-proof way to prove this is how the code works, without actually looking at the code.

There are a few reasons for me being fairly confident in my understanding of the game logic:

1. I do have an Ogre Shaman. I see visibly less spell interrupts on him than on my other characters. I pull a lot of monsters on both my Shaman and my Shadowknight. Monsters tend to bash as their first action when they reach you. If I am casting a spell on my Shadowknight when this happens, I have a good chance of being interrupted. Quite a few of these interrupts come from stuns, specifically. On my Shaman, I land spells in this specific case way more often. I am not saying I never get interrupted, but it is a noticeable difference.

2. There is no logical reason to combine the stun and spell interrupt aspects of Bash from a programming perspective. Bash would calculate the stun percentage, and the spell interrupt percentage separately. Then, if the stun gets called, the game simply checks for the special exceptions when determining if the stun should land or not. This means having FSI, being a mob that is immune to stuns, having Divine Aura on, etc. Obviously the programming could be poorly done, or specifically made to screw over Ogres, but I don't really think that is the default assumption to be made here.

DMN

06-14-2020, 09:04 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 10:11 PM

I guess it would depend on exactly what "logic" you want to assume.

If the programmers logic was they wanted to minimize the amount of calculations the server is being forced to do, it would make more sense for to have a single random chance table like such as a 1-100 where anything above 50 results in an automatic interrupt and above 75 would result in a stun. In that case you'd still get interrupted as an ogre because above 75 is also above 50.

I'm not sure how it works on p99, and don't know how it worked back in 1999.

That is incorrect, based on how p99 currently handles bash. A bash has a spell interrupt component, AND a stun component. This much is fact. You can see this by getting bashed on a non-ogre. If the bash does not stun you, you will sometimes still finish casting the spell. This means there are two separate calculations. One for stuns, and one for spell interrupts. If you wanted to build the bash function as simple and generic as possible, the logic would look like this:

1. Calculate if a stun occurs. If a stun occurs, end the function.
2. If a stun has not occurred, calculated the interrupt chance.

This would be the default way to program bash in a generic manner. It keeps your options open in case some mechanics change in the future.

Your logic would require one more step, which means bash was intentionally designed to make Stun Immunity in general less effective:

1. Calculate if a stun occurs. If a stun occurs, and it is not prevented by a special mechanic, end the function.
2. If a stun occurs, but it is prevented by a special mechanic, set the interrupt chance to 100% and end the function.
3. If a stun has not occurred, calculated the interrupt chance.

Unless there is evidence to suggest Stun Immunity was specifically designed to prevent the stun, and not the spell interrupt, you would assume the function is built in the simpler, more generic way.

While your idea does make sense from a simplicity sake (one random number), you would limit your game designers ability to adjust stun percentages independently of spell interrupt percentages. They would be tied together since they are using the same number. If you wanted a 60% chance for stuns, and a 60% chance for spell interrupts, you couldn't do it using your system.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 11:13 PM

Not sure how accurate this is, but I found this quote on Bash here https://fanra.fandom.com/wiki/Skill_Modifiers_and_Combat_Effects :

"As a side investigation, we asked the Devs why a bash that failed to stun was so much more likely to interrupt casting than a bash that would have stunned, but didn't (due to resist or immunity). It turns out that the mechanism first determines if a bash will stun or not; if not a stun, it checks for interrupt or not. When bash was put in to the game, they did not take into account stun immunity or the development of stun resist mods; so that if the first check yeilds a (potential) stun, it doesn't check for interrupt (assuming the stun would do the interrupting). The Ogre racial immunity to frontal stuns seems to be well worth the 70 levels of experience penalty at this point."

This logic is basically what I was describing above, except it apparently didn't check for interrupts at all if the stun was resisted. Of course, I am not sure where this quote came from, exactly.

DMN

06-14-2020, 11:40 PM

That is incorrect, based on how p99 currently handles bash. A bash has a spell interrupt component, AND a stun component. This much is fact. You can see this by getting bashed on a non-ogre. If the bash does not stun you, you will sometimes still finish casting the spell. This means there are two separate calculations. One for stuns, and one for spell interrupts. If you wanted to build the bash function as simple and generic as possible, the logic would look like this:

1. Calculate if a stun occurs. If a stun occurs, end the function.
2. If a stun has not occurred, calculated the interrupt chance.

This would be the default way to program bash in a generic manner. It keeps your options open in case some mechanics change in the future.

Your logic would require one more step, which means bash was intentionally designed to make Stun Immunity in general less effective:

1. Calculate if a stun occurs. If a stun occurs, and it is not prevented by a special mechanic, end the function.
2. If a stun occurs, but it is prevented by a special mechanic, set the interrupt chance to 100% and end the function.
3. If a stun has not occurred, calculated the interrupt chance.

Unless there is evidence to suggest Stun Immunity was specifically designed to prevent the stun, and not the spell interrupt, you would assume the function is built in the simpler, more generic way.

Ya, I don't know what you are going on about here. You mentioned how something wasn't "logical" and i showed you it made logical sense if you wanted to minimize the server's resources.

I could go even further and offer why it is illogical for a roleplaying game to operate in this manner too.

The idea of a bash is some sort of hard blow focused on knocking you off balance, like a trip or shove or something along those lines. You have 3 outcomes of a successfully landed bash:

The best outcome you don't get stunned or interrupted. RPG wise you got hit the softest.
The second worst outcome you get your spell immediately interrupted. RPG wise you got hit the second hardest.
The worst outcome you spell is immediately interrupted and you are stunned for 1.5 seconds. RPG wise you got hit the hardest possible. Similar to a "critical hit".

"Gee, I'm glad that guy hit me so damn hard. If only the fool would have hit me much softer would it have interrupted my spell." -- not logical RPG dialogue

So it's pretty piss poor logic from an RPG perspective as well server performance perspective.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-14-2020, 11:56 PM

Ya, I don't know what you are going on about here. You mentioned how something wasn't "logical" and i showed you it made logical sense if you wanted to minimize the server's resources.

I could go even further and offer why it is illogical for a roleplaying game to operate in this manner too.

The idea of a bash is some sort of hard blow focused on knocking you off balance, like a trip or shove or something along those lines. You have 3 outcomes of a successfully landed bash:

The best outcome you don't get stunned or interrupted. RPG wise you got hit the softest.
The second worst outcome you get your spell immediately interrupted. RPG wise you got hit the second hardest.
The worst outcome you spell is immediately interrupted and you are stunned for 1.5 seconds. RPG wise you got hit the hardest possible. Similar to a "critical hit".

"Gee, I'm glad that guy hit me so damn hard. If only the fool would have hit me much softer would it have interrupted my spell." -- not logical RPG dialogue

So it's pretty piss poor logic from an RPG perspective as well server performance perspective.

There is always a trade-off between an absolute minimum resource usage, and flexibility. One number vs. two numbers, even in 1999, wasn't a big deal performance wise. The problem with your idea of a single 1-100 number is you cannot give individual percentages to stun AND interrupt chance. This is because the numbers are tied together. If you have a 30% stun chance, you can NOT have greater than a 70% interrupt chance.

From a game design perspective, it is better to take the very slight performance hit, and keep the two chances separate. This allows greater flexibility for balance tweaking. Overall, this is a better design pattern too, because you can keep the stun function generic. This means a stun from bash and a stun from spells can share the same stun function. Having a specially designed stun function for bash, and a specially designed stun function for spells, is harder to maintain.

From a pure programming perspective, the logic I described is a more common design pattern.

From a pure story perspective, this makes sense too. If an ogre is tough enough to brush off a blow that would otherwise stun a normal human being, it would make sense that they are less likely to be interrupted while casting a spell. The idea is they are less affected by heavy blows.

DMN

06-15-2020, 12:59 AM

There is always a trade-off between an absolute minimum resource usage, and flexibility. One number vs. two numbers, even in 1999, wasn't a big deal performance wise. The problem with your idea of a single 1-100 number is you cannot give individual percentages to stun AND interrupt chance. This is because the numbers are tied together. If you have a 30% stun chance, you can NOT have greater than a 70% interrupt chance.

From a game design perspective, it is better to take the very slight performance hit, and keep the two chances separate. This allows greater flexibility for balance tweaking. Overall, this is a better design pattern too, because you can keep the stun function generic. This means a stun from bash and a stun from spells can share the same stun function. Having a specially designed stun function for bash, and a specially designed stun function for spells, is harder to maintain.

From a pure programming perspective, the logic I described is a more common design pattern.

From a pure story perspective, this makes sense too. If an ogre is tough enough to brush off a blow that would otherwise stun a normal human being, it would make sense that they are less likely to be interrupted while casting a spell. The idea is they are less affected by heavy blows.

They would still be less affected because instead of getting stunned they only have the spell interrupted, at which point they can immediately start casting again. As far as "server performance", you generally want to optimize the system however it currently works. If eventually they want to change the system, it will be easy enough to simply change the code.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-15-2020, 01:06 AM

They would still be less affected because instead of getting stunned they only have the spell interrupted, at which point they can immediately start casting again. As far as "server performance", you generally want to optimize the system however it currently works. If eventually they want to change the system, it will be easy enough to simply change the code.

The problem is you do not understand how trivial an optimization that is. We are taking about one integer variable on the heap. Micro optimizations are not usually preferred over flexibility, unless there is a specific need. This calculation is not being run hundreds of thousands of times per second. You wouldn't be sending this data over the network, either. Losing your ability to set individual percentages and keep the functions generic is not worth one integer variable on the heap.

I see no serious "lore" issue either. If your skull is too thick to be stunned, and your weight makes you difficult to move around, a bash would have much less affect on any actions you are taking, including spell casting.

It makes complete sense from programming optimization, programming design patterns, and lore.

DMN

06-15-2020, 01:39 AM

greenspectre

06-15-2020, 09:12 AM

Read entire thread, now just stoked for Kunark and Epic/Torpor/Fungi/FunStick and becoming a solo god. Thanks, thread, for hyping up my class even more!

BlackBellamy

06-15-2020, 09:44 AM

Read entire thread, now just stoked for Kunark and Epic/Torpor/Fungi/FunStick and becoming a solo god. Thanks, thread, for hyping up my class even more!

Yeah me too and I would like to thank everyone involved in crunching the numbers and going through all the mechanics step by step so that my belief that race choice for a Shaman is not very material is reinforced.

For some classes race choice matters a lot. But when you have 6 pages of people arguing 8 vs 12 regen rates then I know that for Shaman it doesn't matter at all.

Which is awesome because nothing is more important than fashionquest. I fucking hate when stats get in the way of looking awesome.

greenspectre

06-15-2020, 10:00 AM

Which is awesome because nothing is more important than fashionquest. I fucking hate when stats get in the way of looking awesome.

Barb shammy here and never looking back.

sonofbaal

06-15-2020, 10:01 AM

Read entire thread, now just stoked for Kunark and Epic/Torpor/Fungi/FunStick and becoming a solo god. Thanks, thread, for hyping up my class even more!

yeah but

.....

but what race?

I think ogre if it wasnt for the clicky snare tbh. Ogre bash immunity, while not recovering as much health , recovers it (by saving from getting hit) in smaller bursts, by preventing mobs hitting on you more because you land that root/slow.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-15-2020, 10:10 AM

A programmer would never intentionally write shitty code. What you are suggesting is someone intentionally wrote shitty code in the hopes that the shitty code might eventually become an "ugly duckling" and morph into something not shitty.

And i already debunked your "lore" claim. Not wasting my time to do it again.

The lore claim doesn't only go your way, that is your opinion. Also, lore does not always dictate game mechanics, even if I grant your lore is superior. Often times the code base is more important than getting an exact bit of lore just right.

A programmer should not write shitty code. Your suggestion was shitty code:) Not being mean here, but it is the truth. Your design pattern is very limited, has no optimization benefits, and is specifically designed to make stun immunity less effective. You have no evidence to suggest the Dev's specifically designed it this way. Also, if you looked at this link I posted here:

https://fanra.fandom.com/wiki/Skill_Modifiers_and_Combat_Effects

"As a side investigation, we asked the Devs why a bash that failed to stun was so much more likely to interrupt casting than a bash that would have stunned, but didn't (due to resist or immunity). It turns out that the mechanism first determines if a bash will stun or not; if not a stun, it checks for interrupt or not. When bash was put in to the game, they did not take into account stun immunity or the development of stun resist mods; so that if the first check yeilds a (potential) stun, it doesn't check for interrupt (assuming the stun would do the interrupting). The Ogre racial immunity to frontal stuns seems to be well worth the 70 levels of experience penalty at this point."

This quote supports my design pattern. It is even better for Ogres if it is true, because they were lazy and simply used the stun component as the interrupt component when a stun landed. Stun Immunity was a special case for 4 expansions. It makes complete sense that they would build it this way in the beginning, and only change it later when they started building the AA system, which was post Velious.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-15-2020, 10:19 AM

yeah but

.....

but what race?

I think ogre if it wasnt for the clicky snare tbh. Ogre bash immunity, while not recovering as much health , recovers it (by saving from getting hit) in smaller bursts, by preventing mobs hitting on you more because you land that root/slow.

Thanks for sticking it out on the whole thread! Trust me when I say the snare necklace isn't that great. I have it on another character. The snare length is short, the snare % is poor, and it gets resisted quite a bit.

I tested Clinging Darkness on my Shadowknight last night. The snare is so bad, if you FD with the mob snared, the mob will start pathing back, instead of standing in place. It paths back slowly, but it still moves lol. As I said before, the mob also doesn't stop running until 10% when the snare is applied. This severely limits it's reasonable use cases.

As to DMN's earlier point about camping out a mob with snare and coming back in quickly, I tested this with root as well. Root does not always break automatically when you camp. So the necklace doesn't even provide the ability to "break camps better".

The only real benefit you will get from the necklace is when you are fear kiting with blind. Fear kiting with blind is limited in it's application, but it can work well against caster mobs that are very dangerous. However, you usually need a large open area to do this effectively. The snare neck will help reduce the area you need, but again, the snare is so bad that the mob is still covering a good amount of ground. You also need to re-cast it a lot.

greenspectre

06-15-2020, 10:48 AM

yeah but what race?

Barbarian, fuck the haters. Advantages as follows-

-Good race. Sell/bank/travel easier. Every 5 levels make a sojourn back to Everfrost to hang out with my barbarian brothers, get spells, ride a wooly mammoth, listen to people moan that Karg Icebear isn't up. Feelin' cute, might get ganked by Lich of Miragul while looking for the Glacier Bear, idk tho.

-Grobb as a hub for Guk runs is still doable. Already got my merchant faction up to Apprehensive and can ghetto-bank with merchants, too. Troll guards are also fixable, but I'm lazy. Fuck those shamans though and their "We don't believe in wolf-form" bullshit. Cabilis will also still be doable when Kunark releases. I'm thinking of building a summer home there.

-Fashionquest. I can't even begin to describe the amount of tail my huge rippling muscles and shiny totemic plate armor has gotten me so far. Darkelves, woodelves, fellow barbarian lasses as well all swoon at the sight of me as I SoW right on by. Don't need Glamour on to attract the ladies, and my armor doesn't look like it's held together with Innoruuk's Dental Floss. I have needed a STA buff on occasion to last those long nights, though. First world problems, I guess.

-I don't have to worry about the Troll vs Ogre debate if I am neither! Can just take big sips.

-If Loramin can solo the Seb Crypt then someday I can, too. Good enough for me!

loramin

06-15-2020, 11:44 AM

For some classes race choice matters a lot. But when you have 6 pages of people arguing 8 vs 12 regen rates then I know that for Shaman it doesn't matter at all.

I truly think this is the correct takeaway.

If Loramin can solo the Seb Crypt then someday I can, too. Good enough for me!

I highly recommend it, only ... do so at an off time, like late at night: if you try and solo a good chunk of a larger 6-person camp (CE, Crypt/Emperor) during prime time, you are going to make a lot of players mad (and there are forum threads here that prove it) :)

sonofbaal

06-15-2020, 11:49 AM

Barbarian, fuck the haters. Advantages as follows-

-Good race. Sell/bank/travel easier. Every 5 levels make a sojourn back to Everfrost to hang out with my barbarian brothers, get spells, ride a wooly mammoth, listen to people moan that Karg Icebear isn't up. Feelin' cute, might get ganked by Lich of Miragul while looking for the Glacier Bear, idk tho.

-Grobb as a hub for Guk runs is still doable. Already got my merchant faction up to Apprehensive and can ghetto-bank with merchants, too. Troll guards are also fixable, but I'm lazy. Fuck those shamans though and their "We don't believe in wolf-form" bullshit. Cabilis will also still be doable when Kunark releases. I'm thinking of building a summer home there.

-Fashionquest. I can't even begin to describe the amount of tail my huge rippling muscles and shiny totemic plate armor has gotten me so far. Darkelves, woodelves, fellow barbarian lasses as well all swoon at the sight of me as I SoW right on by. Don't need Glamour on to attract the ladies, and my armor doesn't look like it's held together with Innoruuk's Dental Floss. I have needed a STA buff on occasion to last those long nights, though. First world problems, I guess.

-I don't have to worry about the Troll vs Ogre debate if I am neither! Can just take big sips.

-If Loramin can solo the Seb Crypt then someday I can, too. Good enough for me!

hte virgin ogre/troll vs the chad barbarian

DeathsSilkyMist

06-15-2020, 12:31 PM

hte virgin ogre/troll vs the chad barbarian

Lol gotta love it:D At the end of the day all Shaman races can basically do the same thing. The question is always what do you prefer more: Extra benefits that help you recover from bad situations a bit better, or fashion. If you are lucky, you can get both! I personally love the way Ogres and Trolls look.

peterpal

06-18-2020, 08:53 PM

Baler

06-18-2020, 08:59 PM

Inspired by this discussion I started playing a troll shaman as I am usually a barbarian. And this is very small scale anecdotal evidence but I'm experiencing a lot of stuns from 2 to 5 stuns each combat easily. And I can see this making a big difference in the late game. But I'm also liking lower downtimes due to the troll regen

What level are you, What are your skills. Not real questions.
Game starts at 60, Get your skills maxed.

Don't listen to people who tell you to melee to level up. Root Rot, then duo to 60.
Shaman is a priest class, these people are playing the wrong class.
I leveled my troll shaman in two weeks to 51, root rotting.

Comparing level 10 to level 60 is not comparable at all. You'll have different gear, spells, etc.
Don't start making assumptions that ogre will be any better while leveling. Even the brain dead ogre boys say troll leveling is better.

Troll is the defacto best shaman race. I hate this ogre brainwashing BS that this community has layered on so thick for years

Hope you picked innoruuk

Sizar

06-18-2020, 09:08 PM

Don't listen to people who tell you to melee to level up. Root Rot

From 40ish to 60 sure yes do this, but it is soooo much more efficient on blue to melee till around 40. Like night and day. Shaman dots and nukes are quite mana inneficient so if you have a good beat stick it's much faster imo to slow, beat down, heal at end of fight and keep going. Baler you clearly know what your talking about when it comes to shamans but in this case I think you are just wrong.

loramin

06-18-2020, 09:39 PM

From 40ish to 60 sure yes do this, but it is soooo much more efficient on blue to melee till around 40. Like night and day. Shaman dots and nukes are quite mana inneficient so if you have a good beat stick it's much faster imo to slow, beat down, heal at end of fight and keep going. Baler you clearly know what your talking about when it comes to shamans but in this case I think you are just wrong.

I think it really depends on the mobs and your gear. Some stuff hits hard enough that your puny Shaman melee damage (even with haste, a proc weapon, etc.) just doesn't make up for the healing you have to do after. Some stuff doesn't hit so hard, and it's worth taking some hits in exchange for that melee DPS.

But of course this depends heavily on your gear. I started without especially good gear (I had a gift of a Barbarian Spiritist Hammer and a couple plat wedding rings, but otherwise was naked). I found I tended to start doing a lot more root/rotting in the late teens, but depending on what I was fighting I went back to meleeing at times. I definitely used my hammer plenty, and root/rotted plenty.

And then one other factor is your pet: it's your best DoT, but you can only use it if either you or the pet is tanking. That leads to a third option I took also: pet tanking. You still lose melee damage, but it can be nice if the mob casts or interrupts you a lot (or summons).

Ultimately I suspect you're both right and you just went to different hunting spots at different levels.

sonofbaal

06-18-2020, 09:57 PM

What level are you, What are your skills. Not real questions.
Game starts at 60, Get your skills maxed.

Don't listen to people who tell you to melee to level up. Root Rot, then duo to 60.
Shaman is a priest class, these people are playing the wrong class.
I leveled my troll shaman in two weeks to 51, root rotting.

Comparing level 10 to level 60 is not comparable at all. You'll have different gear, spells, etc.
Don't start making assumptions that ogre will be any better while leveling. Even the brain dead ogre boys say troll leveling is better.

Troll is the defacto best shaman race. I hate this ogre brainwashing BS that this community has layered on so thick for years

Hope you picked innoruuk

51 in 2 weeks?

jesus those poor socks

fastboy21

06-18-2020, 10:34 PM

You're going about asking the wrong question. The numbers are insignificant, in and of themselves. What matters is how they are applied. Specifically, the right question to ask is: "is there any content I wish to do on my shaman that is made harder or impossible due to a statistically significant advantage of one shaman race over another?"

In high end gear I do not believe there is any such content. There may be a slight advantage for ogre, especially head to head in less than high end gear in the mid/late 50s game on some solo content, especially in velious...but I've never heard anyone say damn I bet I could have won that fight if I had rolled ogre instead of troll...b/c it doesn't happen much, if ever.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-18-2020, 11:37 PM

1-40 meleeing is more mana efficient than root rotting, especially on Blue when you have access to cheap, good ratio weapons like:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Poison_Wind_Censer
https://wiki.project1999.com/Granite_Face_Grinder
https://wiki.project1999.com/Exquisite_Velium_Brawl_Stick

Shaman DoTs have bad DPM at lower levels, and spell resists hurt a lot mana wise.

With meleeing, you just need to haste yourself, heal yourself, slow, maybe malo, and only root at the end when the mob is running. You reduce how many spells you need to cast, and you reduce how many spell resists you get. This is because you are healing yourself, instead of attacking the mob with DoTs. You are also not rooting as much. Lower level roots have a smaller duration, and random root breaks occur. Mobs don't do a ton of damage levels 1-40, so the damage you take while slow tanking is pretty efficient.

Once you hit level 40, meleeing becomes a lot less efficient. Mobs hit a LOT harder, have more HP, and more AC. You also get access JBB and Epic in 5-6 levels.

Shamans were designed to melee to a certain degree. This is evident by their 200 maximum skill for weapon skills at level 50. This is the same cap as Shadowknights and Paladins. Druids and Clerics have a 175 cap at level 50. Also, Shamans get a specific buff line to help with their meleeing: https://wiki.project1999.com/Frenzy to https://wiki.project1999.com/Voice_of_the_Berserker . Not saying it is an amazing spell line, but the game design is crystal clear.

Snaggles

06-19-2020, 12:12 AM

Once slowed bash timers almost freeze in time. Lag spikes or an add will kill you, not a momentary bash. Not typically at least.

All the sham races are great because the class is great. With an epic and fungi (pre 60) you are almost unstoppable. If a scrubby casual though a JBB will make your life wayyy easier than going iksar. Realistically ask yourself if you will get the epic (or if at all) unless you want an underdog trophy.

Snaggles

06-19-2020, 12:48 AM

Oh disregard that. I thought I read more FSI debate but was mistaken.

I went troll. The snare neck is really nice for those high hp runners.

kjs86z

06-19-2020, 07:20 AM

To summarize 13 pages:

- Ogre if your focus is on soloing end game difficult targets.

- Troll if you're min/max but don't plan on doing the toughest stuff solo frequently (prefer grouping, raiding, etc).

- Barb if you want to level faster and/or look cool (polar bear master species IG and IRL).

- Iksar if you like the aesthetics and/or just want to start + RP in the same zone as your necro / monk duo / trio (pretty weak argument but hey you do you man).

loramin

06-19-2020, 10:46 AM

Arvan

06-19-2020, 11:33 AM

Dang you all need to get laid :)

loramin

06-19-2020, 11:53 AM

Dang you all need to get laid :)

Feh.

https://i.imgur.com/KuOyBpT.gif

(Already at home, but wanted to make the Clue reference.)

DeathsSilkyMist

06-19-2020, 12:23 PM

Dang you all need to get laid :)

It is much easier to get laid than to understand the complex machinations of a 20+ year old Ogre sim:D

Cen

06-19-2020, 01:07 PM

Only barbarians can be and wear polar bears so nothing else matters

Baler

06-19-2020, 02:39 PM

To summarize 13 pages:
Troll if you're min/max

Fixed that for you.

I was frequently doing the hardest solo content on my troll shaman.

DeathsSilkyMist

06-19-2020, 04:20 PM

Fixed that for you.

I was frequently doing the hardest solo content on my troll shaman.

All shaman races can do the same content once they get Torpor. No racial allows one race to do content the other races can't. This includes the snare neck with Trolls, and the AC benefits from Iksar.

Pre-Torpor regeneration is better. Post-Torpor Frontal Stun Immunity is better.

Neither help THAT much Post-Torpor. 8 HP regeneration is useless in short term mitigation, such as mitigating unslowed hits for 18 seconds. You would get a paltry 24 HP. In long fights, you will get one free Torpor's worth of healing at best, over the course of the entire fight.

Torpor nullifies regeneration benefits in-between fights. Saving 30 seconds maximum in between fights will not make a difference in most practical situations a Torpor Shaman will run in to. I am always ahead of re-spawn timers. This is without Fungi Tunic, Regrowth, and Troll regeneration. I am always able to meet buff demands in raids after a wipe.

Frontal Stun Immunity is not always used in a fight, and sometimes you get interrupted anyway, due to the secondary interrupt component on a bash, push, etc. FSI helps to reduce the percent chance of unlucky rolls. It is a noticeable difference, especially when you play characters with and without FSI. But it isn't a guarantee. You could certainly get unlucky anyway, and still die with FSI.

loramin

06-19-2020, 05:02 PM

https://i.imgur.com/TlfL4Rj.gif?noredirect

DeathsSilkyMist

06-19-2020, 05:03 PM

https://i.imgur.com/TlfL4Rj.gif?noredirect

Great show!

sonofbaal

06-19-2020, 05:19 PM

two things will continue until the end of time

1. Skyrim memes
2. Ogre vs Troll debate
3. How many Turpors have you saved being Troll? Take your /played time and multiply it by your health regen

Sabin76

06-19-2020, 05:23 PM

3. How many Turpors have you saved being Troll? Take your /played time and multiply it by your health regen

You spent your entire /played being under 100% health...?

busted

06-19-2020, 07:59 PM

This thread is amazing. The back and forth is very good ��

Any sham with torpor will be great.

That said, I prefer Ogre sham. The frontal stun immunity makes a big different IMO.

Especially in scenarios like this:

1. Engage mob
2. Slow resist
3. Proceed in getting smacked
4. Re-cast slow. This has much lower chance of being interrupted due to FSI
5. Saving HPs instead of continued smackage.
6. Winning

Those HPs lost from unslowed mob (due to stun interrupts) add up.

I wish I could snare like Troll but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ogres can snare but need to use un-rechargable items to do so

- https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn
- https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn

or high-end raid items

https://wiki.project1999.com/Sap_Encrusted_Branch
https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction

Jibartik

06-27-2020, 07:09 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

06-28-2020, 11:39 AM

a level 60 shaman is unkillable, but by 1 of 2 things: they are stunned, or failed a resist.

So ogre>troll :o

edit: whoah this thread is 13 pages lol

I have a theory on that, it's because:

1. Ogre's are better.
2. Trolls look cooler.

100% agree on all of this. Ogre Frontal Stun Immunity is better, but I do prefer the male Troll model and animations. Trolls have really cool looking armor sets, and the male Troll's animations look way better than most other races animations. I never understood how they could get a Troll's animations looking just right, but everyone else looks very stiff.

Oddbaal

07-01-2020, 09:16 AM

I’m so proud of you my son

kjs86z

07-01-2020, 09:21 AM

greenspectre

07-01-2020, 10:16 AM

oh hey look im still correct

Hi still correct, I'm dad.

Naethyn

07-01-2020, 12:41 PM

http://wiki.project1999.com/images/Iksar_spirit_weaver.png

Only one shaman race gets boot buckles. Also, the kunark experience is one of the best in game, and the shaman line of quests are great.

Jibartik

07-01-2020, 12:54 PM

http://wiki.project1999.com/images/Iksar_spirit_weaver.png

Only one shaman race gets boot buckles. Also, the kunark experience is one of the best in game, and the shaman line of quests are great.

I will concede that a darkelf with a VP robe, using some legacy reward, is the greatest looking shaman :cool:

busted

07-02-2020, 12:04 AM

Ogre in full https://wiki.project1999.com/Golden_Efreeti_Armor_Set is the sexiest thing since time began.

All hail the golden sham

Jibartik

07-02-2020, 12:47 AM

Anecdotally, the inflection in the word "geb's" is my favorite eq acronym I think of all the acronyms in this game.

Tann

07-03-2020, 10:05 AM

Anecdotally, the inflection in the word "geb's" is my favorite eq acronym I think of all the acronyms in this game.

I wonder if people pronounce "gebs" differently like they do "sow".

Someone should make a poll, short 'e' vs. long 'e', I wager some gotta say "geebs" because people exist who say "sow" like "cow" ughhh.

Jibartik

07-03-2020, 12:11 PM

I used to say G-E-B's but then I heard someone on vent just say the word gebs

like "ghe-bz", "I need a pair of gebs"

I cracked up and used that word ever since.

Sabin76

07-03-2020, 01:30 PM

I wonder if people pronounce "gebs" differently like they do "sow".

Someone should make a poll, short 'e' vs. long 'e', I wager some gotta say "geebs" because people exist who say "sow" like "cow" ughhh.

Is that not how one pronounces the word for female pig?

Tann

07-03-2020, 03:22 PM

Is that not how one pronounces the word for female pig?

P99 has a few timeless debates:
FSI vs. troll/iksar
Iksar necro vs all other races
Sow (like fem pig or cow) vs. Sow (like sew or s-oh)

Crede

07-04-2020, 01:09 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-04-2020, 06:32 PM

I don't really see how Ogre/Troll is a min/max debate for shamans. You're talking about FSI which probably has a .0001% chance to save your life in very specific solo situations whereas Troll regen is making your life easier 100% of the time while soloing, grouping, raiding, etc. FSI is really more about being annoyed by getting bashed occasionally and if that is a deal breaker for you, then by all means roll one. Troll snare necklace will probably save your life more than FSI will.

With that being said, even myself having a Troll shaman, I'd tell anyone rolling a new shaman to go iksar. If you care anything about fashion, they win out with cool velious armor graphics as well as the ability to wear robes, and being fat just really gets old after awhile, despite shamans having the ability to shrink indoors and outdoors with potions. Also JBB really isn't that great once you get epic.

From a fashion perspective, pick the race you want if that is your biggest concern. Some people prefer having an edge stat-wise, as opposed to fashion. If you are like me, you like Ogres/Trolls AND stat advantage too.

No one has denied regeneration is better than FSI before you get Torpor. This is because 8HP/Tick is an extra 25% of the total regeneration you can get on a Pre-Torpor Shaman (+15 Fungi Tunic, +15 Regrowth/Fungi Staff, +2 Bear Form). That is quite a big improvement. Post Torpor, 8/300 is only an extra 2.6%. Torpor changes the Troll regeneration bonus from a 25% increase, to a 2.6% increase. That is a tenfold reduction in utility. This is why regeneration in general loses a lot of utility once you get Torpor. Most 60 Torpor Shamans don't keep a Fungi Tunic on all the time. It's still a great swap item in certain situations, but it isn't the godly item it is when you are Pre-Torpor.

Some people want the best edge they can get AFTER they have Torpor. If this is the case, FSI will save you more often than 8HP/Tick. If a fight is going south, and you only have one minute to live, 8HP/Tick is giving you a measly 80HP in that minute. That is 2 bashes from a West Wastes Dragon. If Slow wears off, and your re-slows are getting resisted, being able to land more slows in that one minute will give you a much greater chance of survival than 80 HP. This is why FSI is generally considered to be better than regeneration POST Torpor.

You should really get the snare necklace on a character to see for yourself, it isn't that great of an item. The snare has the lowest snare % in the game, the necklace has a 6 second cast time, it only lasts 36 seconds, and it seems to get resisted quite a bit. Due to it's 6 second cast time, it's not really an item you can use to save yourself. Root will work better in almost all situations. The only exception would be if the mob is a powerful caster, and you don't want it casting spells while it is running away. However, the slow is so bad the mob will keep running until about 10% health, instead of the usual 20% health.

JBB is a much cheaper leveling tool than epic, it can be resold if you want, and it is still useful at level 60. I use it to help kill West Waste Dragons faster. As a Shaman, reducing the amount of spell gems you use is critical. A Torpor Shaman will have Cannibalize 4, Torpor, Malo, and Turgur's Insects on their spell bar basically all of the time. That is 4/8 spell gems used already. If you want some extra security with Gate, that is 5/8 spell gems used. That means you only have 3 spell gems for roots, DoTs, secondary debuffs like Malosini, utility spells like invisibility, or your DD Ice Spell. JBB gives you one of your better DD spells for free, without using a spell gem or mana. That is a great advantage on any mob that can be hit with a DD ice spell. You just need to know which mobs it can be used on.

Baler

07-05-2020, 03:59 PM

I've made multiple points and posts in this thread why Troll is better than Ogre.
DeathSilkyMist refuses to acknowledge them and is entirely hung up on fsi which is not as good as racial regen for shaman.

He is repeating himself over and over, which doesn't validate what he's saying anymore than when he said it the first time.
https://www.project1999.com/forums/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=361266

Snaggles

07-05-2020, 04:13 PM

Being able to snare something as an inny troll is clutch. Yes it’s a crap snare but most optimal Sham duo choices don’t have it (minus a SK). A npc with 10k+ hps can “flee” for a very long time.

I have nothing against ogres but for a level 25’ish quest the snare neck is pretty amazing. It’s at least (if not better) than getting bashed when something is already slowed 75%.

Crede

07-05-2020, 07:24 PM

From a fashion perspective, pick the race you want if that is your biggest concern. Some people prefer having an edge stat-wise, as opposed to fashion. If you are like me, you like Ogres/Trolls AND stat advantage too.

No one has denied regeneration is better than FSI before you get Torpor. This is because 8HP/Tick is an extra 25% of the total regeneration you can get on a Pre-Torpor Shaman (+15 Fungi Tunic, +15 Regrowth/Fungi Staff, +2 Bear Form). That is quite a big improvement. Post Torpor, 8/300 is only an extra 2.6%. Torpor changes the Troll regeneration bonus from a 25% increase, to a 2.6% increase. That is a tenfold reduction in utility. This is why regeneration in general loses a lot of utility once you get Torpor. Most 60 Torpor Shamans don't keep a Fungi Tunic on all the time. It's still a great swap item in certain situations, but it isn't the godly item it is when you are Pre-Torpor.

Some people want the best edge they can get AFTER they have Torpor. If this is the case, FSI will save you more often than 8HP/Tick. If a fight is going south, and you only have one minute to live, 8HP/Tick is giving you a measly 80HP in that minute. That is 2 bashes from a West Wastes Dragon. If Slow wears off, and your re-slows are getting resisted, being able to land more slows in that one minute will give you a much greater chance of survival than 80 HP. This is why FSI is generally considered to be better than regeneration POST Torpor.

You should really get the snare necklace on a character to see for yourself, it isn't that great of an item. The snare has the lowest snare % in the game, the necklace has a 6 second cast time, it only lasts 36 seconds, and it seems to get resisted quite a bit. Due to it's 6 second cast time, it's not really an item you can use to save yourself. Root will work better in almost all situations. The only exception would be if the mob is a powerful caster, and you don't want it casting spells while it is running away. However, the slow is so bad the mob will keep running until about 10% health, instead of the usual 20% health.

JBB is a much cheaper leveling tool than epic, it can be resold if you want, and it is still useful at level 60. I use it to help kill West Waste Dragons faster. As a Shaman, reducing the amount of spell gems you use is critical. A Torpor Shaman will have Cannibalize 4, Torpor, Malo, and Turgur's Insects on their spell bar basically all of the time. That is 4/8 spell gems used already. If you want some extra security with Gate, that is 5/8 spell gems used. That means you only have 3 spell gems for roots, DoTs, secondary debuffs like Malosini, utility spells like invisibility, or your DD Ice Spell. JBB gives you one of your better DD spells for free, without using a spell gem or mana. That is a great advantage on any mob that can be hit with a DD ice spell. You just need to know which mobs it can be used on.

This entire statement has nothing to do with min max shaman, but having a potential slight edge over trolls when soloing. But they do a lot more than just solo, and every second they aren’t tanking they’re losing to a troll. I have the snare necklace as well, and I also use clinging darkness on my sk even at higher levels, it’s still effective.

Philistine

07-05-2020, 08:09 PM

I propose that folks just agree to disagree :)

DMN

07-06-2020, 12:08 AM

I've long burnt out on the whole troll/ogre shaman debate. Long term it's not going to make much difference no matter what. once you have torpor the thing that is going to kill you 99.999% of the time soloing is going to be spell resists. The snare can save you a decent amount of mana in grouping situations, but usually only relevant in smaller grouping since more players you add the more likely someone in it has a snare.

Baler

07-06-2020, 07:55 AM

This entire statement has nothing to do with min max shaman, but having a potential slight edge over trolls when soloing. But they do a lot more than just solo, and every second they aren’t tanking they’re losing to a troll. I have the snare necklace as well, and I also use clinging darkness on my sk even at higher levels, it’s still effective.

I've told him this and even bent my knee to give him positives for ogre. But he's thoroughly locked into believing ogre is better, which it isn't.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-06-2020, 12:28 PM

I've told him this and even bent my knee to give him positives for ogre. But he's thoroughly locked into believing ogre is better, which it isn't.

It isn't about bending the knee. I don't care who is right. I just care about the facts. I've shown the math multiple times on Regeneration Post-Torpor, and I keep saying Trolls are better Pre-Torpor.

You are simply over-estimating Regeneration Post-Torpor. Regeneration Post-Torpor isn't that great because you are always full health in between fights due to Torpor. Troll Regeneration will only save you 1 Torpor (24 seconds) maximum when Cannibalizing from low health and mana.

The only time Regeneration matters is in fights, corpse recovery, and in raids when you are chain buffing/healing. I have NEVER run into a problem while raiding in terms of keeping up with heals/buffs, even during corpse recovery. That is WITHOUT Troll Regeneration, WITHOUT Fungi Tunic, AND WITHOUT Regrowth. If I can keep up WITHOUT +38 Regeneration, I can certainly keep up WITHOUT +8 Regeneration.

I am not saying Regeneration is bad Post-Torpor. I still use Fungi Staff and Bear Form. But at the end of the day if you want the best racial Post-Torpor, FSI will help you more often than Regeneration. That is all I am saying. I am not saying Regeneration is bad. The math shows FSI will help more often in a life or death fight than Regeneration. This is the only time either racial really matters Post-Torpor.

If you have a fight completely under control, FSI and Regeneration will not change the fight at all. This is why neither are useful for a lot of fights, and why race doesn't matter much on a Shaman with Torpor.

I am also not saying Snare Neck is bad. I am just showing it isn't a great, class changing item. Clinging Darkness isn't a great spell, and the cast time on the neck is long for the short duration and resist potential of Clinging Darkness. With most Shaman strategies and mob running situations, Root works just fine. The only time Snare Neck partially changes a Shaman strategy is with Blind kiting (ghetto fear kiting).

This entire statement has nothing to do with min max shaman, but having a potential slight edge over trolls when soloing. But they do a lot more than just solo, and every second they aren’t tanking they’re losing to a troll. I have the snare necklace as well, and I also use clinging darkness on my sk even at higher levels, it’s still effective.

I have a Shadowknight, and I would never use Clinging Darkness, even to save mana. The next level spell, Engulfing Darkness, is way better. Engulfing Darkness is twice as good as Clinging Darkness. It costs 60 mana instead of 20, but since it is twice as good, it is the equivalent of casting Clinging Darkness twice. This means if you use Clinging Darkness, you are only saving 20 mana per two casts, and you are losing time and DPS from casting Clinging Darkness twice as often. The snare is also worse on Clinging Darkness, so you are creating a longer runway for yourself when fear kiting.

Crede

07-06-2020, 01:03 PM

It isn't about bending the knee. I don't care who is right. I just care about the facts. I've shown the math multiple times on Regeneration Post-Torpor, and I keep saying Trolls are better Pre-Torpor.

You are simply over-estimating Regeneration Post-Torpor. Regeneration Post-Torpor isn't that great because you are always full health in between fights due to Torpor. Troll Regeneration will only save you 1 Torpor (24 seconds) maximum when Cannibalizing from low health and mana.

The only time Regeneration matters is in fights, corpse recovery, and in raids when you are chain buffing/healing. I have NEVER run into a problem while raiding in terms of keeping up with heals/buffs, even during corpse recovery. That is WITHOUT Troll Regeneration, WITHOUT Fungi Tunic, AND WITHOUT Regrowth. If I can keep up WITHOUT +38 Regeneration, I can certainly keep up WITHOUT +8 Regeneration.

I am not saying Regeneration is bad Post-Torpor. I still use Fungi Staff and Bear Form. But at the end of the day if you want the best racial Post-Torpor, FSI will help you more often than Regeneration. That is all I am saying. I am not saying Regeneration is bad. The math shows FSI will help more often in a life or death fight than Regeneration. This is the only time either racial really matters Post-Torpor.

If you have a fight completely under control, FSI and Regeneration will not change the fight at all. This is why neither are useful for a lot of fights, and why race doesn't matter much on a Shaman with Torpor.

I am also not saying Snare Neck is bad. I am just showing it isn't a great, class changing item. Clinging Darkness isn't a great spell, and the cast time on the neck is long for the short duration and resist potential of Clinging Darkness. With most Shaman strategies and mob running situations, Root works just fine. The only time Snare Neck partially changes a Shaman strategy is with Blind kiting (ghetto fear kiting).

I have a Shadowknight, and I would never use Clinging Darkness, even to save mana. The next level spell, Engulfing Darkness, is way better. Engulfing Darkness is twice as good as Clinging Darkness. It costs 60 mana instead of 20, but since it is twice as good, it is the equivalent of casting Clinging Darkness twice. This means if you use Clinging Darkness, you are only saving 20 mana per two casts, and you are losing time and DPS from casting Clinging Darkness twice as often. The snare is also worse on Clinging Darkness, so you are creating a longer runway for yourself when fear kiting.

Nobody is saying regen was needed in raids. But it's still an advantage and these are the absolute facts:

More regen = less torpor casts needed to maintain health. The racial advantage goes from 8 to 11/tick at 60 if you decide you want to take a break from canni & sit to med or canni dance.
Snare necklace = potential life saver in specific scenarios.
FSI = potential life saver in specific scenarios.

Snare/FSI is a wash. Troll regen wins out.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-06-2020, 01:25 PM

Nobody is saying regen was needed in raids. But it's still an advantage and these are the absolute facts:

More regen = less torpor casts needed to maintain health. The racial advantage goes from 8 to 11/tick at 60 if you decide you want to take a break from canni & sit to med or canni dance.
Snare necklace = potential life saver in specific scenarios.
FSI = potential life saver in specific scenarios.

Snare/FSI is a wash. Troll regen wins out.

Math wise, at low health and mana, Troll Rgeneration only saves 1 Torpor (24 seconds) at best when getting to completely full health/mana. That is the math, unless you have full BiS and cleric buffs, then it may save 2 Torpors. That is nothing time-wise for a Shaman when soloing most targets and waiting for respawns. When you are at full health, Regeneration doesn't do anything. No Torpor Shaman will sit and med any decent chunk of health/mana. No Torpor Shaman canni dances.

FSI is way more useful in life saver situations than Snare Neck. You can root and run or gate easier than the 6 second cast time on Snare Neck, with possible resists. In outdoor zones, you can outrun most mobs with SoW. In dungeons, you don't have the ability to run to the zoneline anyway in most cases.

Crede

07-06-2020, 01:34 PM

Math wise, at low health and mana, Troll Rgeneration only saves 1 Torpor (24 seconds) at best when getting to completely full health/mana. That is the math, unless you have full BiS and cleric buffs, then it may save 2 Torpors. That is nothing time-wise for a Shaman when soloing most targets and waiting for respawns. When you are at full health, Regeneration doesn't do anything. No Torpor Shaman will sit and med any decent chunk of health/mana. No Torpor Shaman canni dances.

FSI is way more useful in life saver situations than Snare Neck. You can root and run or gate easier than the 6 second cast time on Snare Neck, with possible resists. In outdoor zones, you can outrun most mobs with SoW. In dungeons, you don't have the ability to run to the zoneline anyway in most cases.

Your claims are all subjective based on a solo shaman build, not min max which encompasses all areas of shaman play in which regen wins out.

Ogre warriors have an objective min max advantage with FSI, ogre shamans do not.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-06-2020, 01:44 PM

Your claims are all subjective based on a solo shaman build, not min max which encompasses all areas of shaman play in which regen wins out.

Ogre warriors have an objective min max advantage with FSI, ogre shamans do not.

Math is not subjective:) Torpor Shamans will be at full HP/Mana most of the time, due to how fast Torpor allows you to recover. It takes about 5 minutes to get from low HP and Mana back to full HP/Mana with Torpor, unless you are BiS with Aego. In 5 minutes, you are getting 400 HP from Troll Regen. That is actually only 1/3rd of a Torpor. So you are really only saving 8 seconds at best in MOST cases. One Torpor in total if you are BiS with Aego.

The only situation where racial bonuses matter on a Torpor Shaman is when you are soloing/duoing. One of the main reasons why people play Shamans is for their solo/duo power. If you only plan on grouping/raiding with a Shaman, then racial benefits do not matter. Play Barbarian for their slim body build and faster XP rate.

If a group of 3+ or a raid is getting it's ass kicked, one non-interrupted spell, or 80 HP regenerated will not save the group at all.

Baler

07-06-2020, 03:38 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-06-2020, 04:00 PM

DeathsSilkyMist loves ogre, let the person be. They're clearly never going to give an inch towards the truth. If ogre works for them, that's all that matters to them.

Troll is better than Ogre. Go back multiple pages and read through this thread. I've provided numerous examples why this is the case.

I have shown the factual math, you can't escape it:) It takes 5 minutes for most Torpor Shamans to get from low HP and Mana to full HP and Mana. While they are Full HP/Mana, they aren't regenerating. 5 minutes of regeneration = 400 extra HP from Troll regeneration, which is 1/3rd of a Torpor. Saving 24 seconds at best isn't anything special on a class that can get back to full HP/Mana in between fights faster than any other class in the game. Even on 20 min Chardok timers, I have no problems with spawn timers. I am not sure what you are doing in-between spawns. You either keep killing monsters while timers rotate, or you wait. Both situations are handled perfectly fine without regeneration.

In an actual fight, if you are in control of the situation, neither regeneration or FSI will matter. It only matters when you are not in control of the fight. At that point, you are looking at minutes to live at best. That crunched time period makes regeneration not very useful.

In raids, it also isn't anything special. I have never had any problems doing Shaman things without Fungi Tunic, Troll Regen, Bear Form, and Regrowth. If having 40 less regeneration isn't a big deal, having 8 less regeneration also isn't a big deal.

busted

07-09-2020, 06:57 PM

Gustoo

07-09-2020, 07:41 PM

Yep.

Fact is that not being physically stunned is about 10x more useful than any other minor racial difference. You feel it big time as a melee character who in melee range all the time, its a no brainer.

But otherwise guys should just roll barbarians thats just pure nostalgia level fun edition everquest right there.

DMN

07-09-2020, 07:56 PM

For your consideration:

Witness as a troll gets stunned here: https://youtu.be/dO2ls0zK47g?t=31

(Aside: yes yes this is a shadowknight. Thanks for letting me know)

This could have been a death with just 1 more interrupt.

This is where FSI is boss level.

*spoiler* he didn't actually die.

And he certainly is not going to get stunned again before FD attempt because bash/kick has like a 7 second cooldown.

You could also post an ogre being hit/killed and claim that if he was a troll with higher agility he wouldn't have gotten hit. In fact we can extend this hypothetical absurdity by saying a troll could theoretically never get hit due to higher agility.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-09-2020, 08:21 PM

*spoiler* he didn't actually die.

And he certainly is not going to get stunned again before FD attempt because bash/kick has like a 7 second cooldown.

You could also post an ogre being hit/killed and claim that if he was a troll with higher agility he wouldn't have gotten hit. In fact we can extend this hypothetical absurdity by saying a troll could theoretically never get hit due to higher agility.

This doesn't make any sense. Staying on Topic, we are talking about Shamans, who can max all of their melee stats self buffed, including Agility. Claiming starting stats matter at all on a Shaman is kind of silly.

I will show the math again.

Once you get Torpor, all racial bonuses become situational. It takes 5 minutes at most for a Shaman to regain full HP and Mana from Torpor/Cannibalize 4. 5 minutes of standing Regeneration on a Troll = 400 HP. This is 1/3rd of a Torpor. Out of combat, you save 24 seconds at best on the less than 5 minutes it takes to get back to full HP and Mana. You regenerate out of combat very little as a Torpor Shaman due to how fast you can gain your resources back.

A hard 15 minute fight such as West Waste Dragons:

1. 1200 HP total from Troll Regeneration, standing. This is assuming you never hit 100% from Torpor. This is 1 Torpor worth of HP. You will be saving 24 seconds and 200 mana at absolute best in this fight by being a Troll.

2. You are mitigating 80 damage per minute on a mob that can deal over 200 damage per hit.

3. Frontal Stun Immunity will allow you to land spells that would otherwise be interrupted. If you get bashed while casting your first Slow, you are looking at an additional 5-10 seconds of being hit on an unslowed mob that can deal over 200 damage per hit. That can easily amount to over 1200 damage if the mob gets lucky on hits. In the same 5-10 seconds, you would get 16 HP from regeneration at best.

DMN

07-09-2020, 09:21 PM

This doesn't make any sense. Staying on Topic, we are talking about Shamans, who can max all of their melee stats self buffed, including Agility. Claiming starting stats matter at all on a Shaman is kind of silly.

I will show the math again.

Once you get Torpor, all racial bonuses become situational. It takes 5 minutes at most for a Shaman to regain full HP and Mana from Torpor/Cannibalize 4. 5 minutes of standing Regeneration on a Troll = 400 HP. This is 1/3rd of a Torpor. Out of combat, you save 24 seconds at best on the less than 5 minutes it takes to get back to full HP and Mana. You regenerate out of combat very little as a Torpor Shaman due to how fast you can gain your resources back.

A hard 15 minute fight such as West Waste Dragons:

1. 1200 HP total from Troll Regeneration, standing. This is assuming you never hit 100% from Torpor. This is 1 Torpor worth of HP. You will be saving 24 seconds and 200 mana at absolute best in this fight by being a Troll.

2. You are mitigating 80 damage per minute on a mob that can deal over 200 damage per hit.

3. Frontal Stun Immunity will allow you to land spells that would otherwise be interrupted. If you get bashed while casting your first Slow, you are looking at an additional 5-10 seconds of being hit on an unslowed mob that can deal over 200 damage per hit. That can easily amount to over 1200 damage if the mob gets lucky on hits. In the same 5-10 seconds, you would get 16 HP from regeneration at best.

it doesn't allow you to land jack shit on the mob. You have no idea if any given spell is going to get resisted or not, so simply getting the spell off isn't the same thing as landing a spell. In fact:

Non-ogre starts casting slow, gets stunned, this spell would have been resisted even if cast

We place an Ogre in same position who gets interrupted anyway.

We place a a different Ogre in same position but slow is resisted this time.

The non-ogre could have theoretically saved 250 mana and may in fact land the next slow spell before the ogre can, saving even more hp/mana because the stun duration could have been shorter than the completed cast time.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-09-2020, 09:26 PM

it doesn't allow you to land jack shit on the mob. You have no idea if any given spell is going to get resisted or not, so simply getting the spell off isn't the same thing as landing a spell. In fact this scenario is entirely possible:

Non-ogre starts casting slow, gets stunned, this spell would have been resisted even if cast
We place an Ogre in same position who gets interrupted anyway.
We place a a different Ogre in same position but slow is resisted..

The non-ogre could have theoretically saved 250 mana and may in fact land the next slow spell even before the ogre saving even more hp/mana because the stun duration could have been shorter than the completed cast time.

I never claimed the spell couldn't be resisted. No racial helps with that. That is why you normally want to cast Malo on the mob first:)

Being able to get the spell off AND not getting stunned means you can cast the second slow a few seconds faster than a Troll. You know the spell is resisted sooner, and you don't have to wait to become unstunned before you start casting again. So even in your hypothetical, Ogre is superior.

DMN

07-09-2020, 09:42 PM

I never claimed the spell couldn't be resisted. No racial helps with that. That is why you normally want to cast Malo on the mob first:)

Being able to get the spell off AND not getting stunned means you can cast the second slow a few seconds faster than a Troll. You know the spell is resisted sooner, and you don't have to wait to become unstunned before you start casting again. So even in your hypothetical, Ogre is superior.

Stun from bashes only lasts about 1.5 seconds. The full cast time on tugurs is 3 seconds. The non-ogre didn't cast a first slow so they don't have to eat the cast time or mana loss. it's really not complicated stuff here. You want play this game of hypothetical but only when they hypothetically advantage your argument.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-10-2020, 12:41 AM

Stun from bashes only lasts about 1.5 seconds. The full cast time on tugurs is 3 seconds. The non-ogre didn't cast a first slow so they don't have to eat the cast time or mana loss. it's really not complicated stuff here. You want play this game of hypothetical but only when they hypothetically advantage your argument.

I know it isn't complicated. I have a 60 Torpor Shaman. I am not sure why you are trying to make a super convoluted hypothetical to try and show how Trolls would "save 250 mana". A resistance check only happens when you land the spell, so you don't save any mana from being interrupted. The resistance check never happened. You would always cast Turgurs a second time right after you get interrupted in this situation. It isn't like you get bashed and realize you don't need to cast slow anymore.

Under your hypothetical where the first Slow is guaranteed to be resisted, the Troll gets the bad end of the deal. The Troll starts casting Turgurs the first time and gets interrupted. The second Turgurs gets resisted. The third Turgurs lands. He doesn't save any mana or time because he still had to cast the spell twice. But the Troll has to wait 1.5-4.5 seconds before he can cast the second Turgurs, depending on when the bash happens. This means the Troll will be attacked by an unslowed mob for up to 10 seconds before his third slow lands.

The Ogre's first Turgurs wouldn't get interrupted, only resisted. The second Turgurs would land. The Ogre has only been attacked unslowed for 6 seconds. Frontal Stun Immunity saved the Ogre up to 4 seconds of unslowed attacks in this example. It is very simple. The only time the Ogre loses out is when he gets interrupted, but he doesn't know it until the cast bar finishes. But Trolls have this exact same problem. Any bash that doesn't stun can still interrupt, and you don't know that happens until the cast bar finishes.

Naethyn

07-10-2020, 12:59 AM

Focus sta plz

(the rest doesn't really matter)

DMN

07-10-2020, 08:14 AM

Under your hypothetical where the first Slow is guaranteed to be resisted, the Troll gets the bad end of the deal. The Troll starts casting Turgurs the first time and gets interrupted. The second Turgurs gets resisted. The third Turgurs lands.

Not sure if you are stupid or just being obtuse because you are losing the argument here, but neither wears well.

I presented 2 hypotheticals that could reasonably occur following an ogre's successful bash/stun avoidance as being a significantly detrimental instead of beneficial, especially so if talking about a very high end encounter like a dragon solo attempt. One of those didn't even involve a spell resist, by the way.

Do address the hypotheticals and not pretend they are something different than I clearly described them as.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-10-2020, 11:28 AM

Not sure if you are stupid or just being obtuse because you are losing the argument here, but neither wears well.

I presented 2 hypotheticals that could reasonably occur following an ogre's successful bash/stun avoidance as being a significantly detrimental instead of beneficial, especially so if talking about a very high end encounter like a dragon solo attempt. One of those didn't even involve a spell resist, by the way.

Do address the hypotheticals and not pretend they are something different than I clearly described them as.

Insulting people isn't a valid argument, and you didn't read my previous post correctly if you think this. Here are your hypotheticals, you posted them, not me:)

Non-ogre starts casting slow, gets stunned, this spell would have been resisted even if cast

We place an Ogre in same position who gets interrupted anyway.

We place a a different Ogre in same position but slow is resisted this time.

The non-ogre could have theoretically saved 250 mana and may in fact land the next slow spell before the ogre can, saving even more hp/mana because the stun duration could have been shorter than the completed cast time.

Your idea of "this spell would have been resisted even if cast" doesn't make sense. Resistances only occur when the spell LANDS. Getting interrupted doesn't save you a resistance check, or roll you a new one. The resistance check hasn't happened yet. That is why you haven't "saved 250 mana" by getting interrupted. In your hypothetical situation where the first spell is always resisted, the non-ogre would cast Turgurs which would be interrupted. The non-ogre would cast Turgurs as second time, which would be resisted. The non-ogre would cast Turgurs a third time, and land it. This is what I said in the previous post. The non-ogre loses here, because they have to wait for the stun to finish, on top of having to cast the spell twice more anyway.

Your second situation, where the Ogre gets interrupted, the Ogre would lose time yes. I never claimed otherwise. I even said they would lose in my previous post in this situation lol. The Ogre would cast Turgurs for it's full cast time, get interrupted, then have to cast Turgurs a second time, and that one gets resisted. The ogre would cast Turgurs a third time to land the spell. You don't spend mana on an interrupted spell, so the non-ogre hasn't "saved 250 mana" in this situation either. At best, the non-ogre has saved 1.5 seconds over the Ogre, assuming the bash occurred at the beginning of the cast. What you fail to mention is the non-ogre would lose up to 1.5 seconds if the bash occurs at the end of the cast. This second situation is a draw in the end when comparing Ogres and non-ogres. Sometimes Ogres win, sometimes non-ogres win. But as I said in the previous post, ALL races have the problem of getting bashed with an interrupt component, but no stun component. Both Ogres and non-ogres will waste time trying to finish casting a spell that has already been interrupted. There is no way to know until the cast bar finishes.

In the third situation, the Ogre wins, as I mentioned in my previous post. The Ogre casts Turgurs the first time and gets resisted. He casts Turgurs a second time and it lands. The Ogre has saved up to 4.5 seconds of unslowed damage because he got the first spell off, saw it was resisted, and immediately started casting Turgurs as second time.

EDIT: your language of "put x race in the same position" implies the spell would have been resisted the first time in all three situations. This is because the "same position" is going off of the first situation, where the spell would have been resisted. If that is not what you intended, your writing was simply too vague. Based on how you wrote your post, all three situations are resting on your faulty assumption that getting interrupted would save 250 mana or a resistance check.

DMN

07-10-2020, 05:29 PM

Insulting people isn't a valid argument, and you didn't read my previous post correctly if you think this. Here are your hypotheticals, you posted them, not me:)

They aren't insults. They are observations of someone with an apparent inability to understand what hypothetical means.

Your idea of "this spell would have been resisted even if cast" doesn't make sense.

Again, because you apparently don't know what hypothetical means. It doesn't have to be "would be resisted" you can skip right to IS RESISTED. Once the spell is resisted the ogre now spent 3 seconds casting, lost 250 mana, and has to manage a 6 second cooldown on their best slow.

The point is that in there is a range of potential outcomes even after a successful stun resist. You have no certainty what is going to come of it, and a very real chance of a negative outcome because of it if it involves an offensive spell like slow, especially when talking about high end stuff like dragons who have high resist rates.

More broadly the point is there is such a massive soup of variables going on in these encounters that the potential for a brief stun to change the outcome of the fight for a shaman is virtually zero.

rabids

07-10-2020, 05:58 PM

DMN

07-10-2020, 06:09 PM

I also have a hyopthetical situation that shows why orges are worse than trolls.

Imagine if orgres always gets resists and trolls never gets resists. In that case the troll is better then the orge!!!!

Eat it Deathssilkymist! You are stupid and dont understnad hypotheticals! Troll s>>> ogres! Who would want to play a class that always resists anyway? Thats stupid. Stupid ogres.

/Irony off.

I like trolls best (I will always love my snare clicky and I will never get the snare spear.), but I take my hat off for you Deathssilkymist for always focussing on the discussion even when others is being unreasonable og rude.

Hrmm. An account that hasn't been used in over half a year but just shows up for some petty comment in a largely pointless shaman thread. Seems legit.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-10-2020, 06:11 PM

They aren't insults. They are observations of someone with an apparent inability to understand what hypothetical means.

Again, because you apparently don't know what hypothetical means. It doesn't have to be "would be resisted" you can skip right to IS RESISTED. Once the spell is resisted the ogre now spent 3 seconds casting, lost 250 mana, and has to manage a 6 second cooldown on their best slow.

The point is that in there is a range of potential outcomes even after a successful stun resist. You have no certainty what is going to come of it, and a very real chance of a negative outcome because of it if it involves an offensive spell like slow, especially when talking about high end stuff like dragons who have high resist rates.

More broadly the point is there is such a massive soup of variables going on in these encounters that the potential for a brief stun to change the outcome of the fight for a shaman is virtually zero.

Calling someone stupid is an insult, and the only person who doesn't understand hypotheticals is yourself:)

A hypothetical situation needs to be possible, or it is useless. Your idea that getting interrupted allows you to re-roll a resistance check is not correct, and therefore it is an irrelevant hypothetical. Resistance checks only happen when a spell lands.

Of course there is no way to know what will happen. Has anyone in this thread said otherwise? FSI allows you to work with unknown situations easier than a constant, low yield regeneration, which is the real point when comparing FSI with Troll regeneration.

Here is what you do not understand about your OWN hypothetical: If the spell would have been resisted for the Ogre, it would have been resisted for the troll too. Your hypothetical is saying the first slow landed by the caster IS RESISTED. It doesn't matter if the Troll was interrupted before. The first Turgurs that lands will be resisted in this scenario. You somehow think the interrupted Troll will land their first Turgurs, while the Ogre's first Turgurs will be resisted. Those are TWO DIFFERENT SCENARIOS. You cannot compare two different scenarios, and claim they are the same.
.
Here is what will happen in your scenario, if you actually use the same exact scenario for both races:

The Ogre will cast his first Turgurs. He doesn't get stunned, but the spell gets resisted. This is the FIRST resistance check. The Ogre will need to cast Turgurs again. Total cast time: 6 seconds to land the first Slow.

The Troll gets stunned on their first Turgurs cast. The second Turgurs cast, which lands, will get resisted. This is the FIRST resistance check. The Troll will need to cast Turgurs again. Total cast time: 7.5 seconds to 10.5 seconds, depending on when the stun lands during the casting time.

You are correct that a bash with a stun component AND an interrupt component will cause the Ogre to lose time because the Ogre has to wait until the cast time finishes to see that the spell is interrupted. However, the Ogre will only lose time if the bash occurs near the beginning of the spell cast. Trolls will actually lose time if the bash happens near the end of the cast time. This is because you were casting for 2.5 seconds, and then get stunned for 1.5 seconds. This is a waste of 4 seconds, instead of 3 seconds. This is why this kind of situation is a draw for Ogres and Trolls. Who wins simply depends on when the bash hits.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-10-2020, 06:14 PM

I also have a hyopthetical situation that shows why orges are worse than trolls.

Imagine if orgres always gets resists and trolls never gets resists. In that case the troll is better then the orge!!!!

Eat it Deathssilkymist! You are stupid and dont understnad hypotheticals! Troll s>>> ogres! Who would want to play a class that always resists anyway? Thats stupid. Stupid ogres.

/Irony off.

I like trolls best (I will always love my snare clicky and I will never get the snare spear.), but I take my hat off for you Deathssilkymist for always focussing on the discussion even when others is being unreasonable og rude.

Thanks! I try to keep this stuff civil, and with facts. The funny thing is, Trolls are also my favorite race in the game. My first live toon was a Troll Warrior, and my 56 Shadowknight is a Troll. I think Male Trolls have the best model and animations.

But I will not use my personal bias to claim Trolls are better. If Ogres are better, I will still say so, and still love playing my Troll Shadowknight.

DMN

07-10-2020, 06:16 PM

https://i.imgur.com/CcbaeI9.gif

rabids

07-10-2020, 06:39 PM

Hrmm. An account that hasn't been used in over half a year but just shows up for some petty comment in a largely pointless shaman thread. Seems legit.

Good argument there☺ When I was active last and why that is a long time ago is relevant how?

I just think it is very funny that you make up a weird situation about who resists what when and use it as proof. And then insist that Deatssilkymist doesnt understand how hypotheticals work when he is trying to take you seriously🙂

I can agree with you though, in this hypothetical situation where the orge always resist the first cast and the troll only gets a stun instead of a resist, the troll is better. Too bad thats not how it works in the actual game, making it an absurd agrument😁 Fun stuff, keep it up👍

whippetofspades

07-10-2020, 07:24 PM

More broadly the point is there is such a massive soup of variables going on in these encounters that the potential for a brief stun to change the outcome of the fight for a shaman is virtually zero.

This is the big point that nobody seems able or willing to grasp. Every race of shaman can do all the same stuff so in the end it comes down to regen (quantifiable benefit) against FSI (unquantifiable benefit).

The only time you can try to determine the worth of FSI is against a single mob, which when slowed bashes about every 30 seconds, because that's the only time the variables can be apprehended well enough to work out if FSI does anything. Even then if you can't time casts within a 30 second window the problem is not the shaman's race. In circumstances with more than one mob, in these vague 'clutch' situations, the benefits of FSI are drowning in that variable soup and impossible to clearly determine.

Basically you can tell clearly and directly that regen does something significant. The same can't be said of FSI.

It's just such a no brainer. A core aspect of the class is significantly stronger in troll and Iksar than the other races. Nobody argues this for necro. It's like trying to say gnomish wall vision beats regen.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-10-2020, 07:36 PM

This is the big point that nobody seems able or willing to grasp. Every race of shaman can do all the same stuff so in the end it comes down to regen (quantifiable benefit) against FSI (unquantifiable benefit).

The only time you can try to determine the worth of FSI is against a single mob, which when slowed bashes about every 30 seconds, because that's the only time the variables can be apprehended well enough to work out if FSI does anything. Even then if you can't time casts within a 30 second window the problem is not the shaman's race. In circumstances with more than one mob, in these vague 'clutch' situations, the benefits of FSI are drowning in that variable soup and impossible to clearly determine.

Basically you can tell clearly and directly that regen does something significant. The same can't be said of FSI.

It's just such a no brainer. A core aspect of the class is significantly stronger in troll and Iksar than the other races. Nobody argues this for necro. It's like trying to say gnomish wall vision beats regen.

FSI is very quantifiable, this is why people prefer it! If you are willing to read my previous posts here, I give plenty of examples of quantifiable situations, ones I have experienced first hand.

FSI matters when you do not have control of a situation. Those kinds of situations include having unslowed mobs hitting you.

In a fully controlled situation, where the mob is slowed and not resisting, neither FSI or Regeneration will help you. Shaman racial bonuses only matter in specific scenarios once you have Torpor.

Danth

07-10-2020, 08:08 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-10-2020, 08:31 PM

I've said it before, I'll say it again: By far the largest advantage gained from ogre bash resistance is a confidence boost for those players who are otherwise a little unsure of themselves. For that portion of players, the feeling of having a perceived advantage far outweighs the actual potency (or lack therof) of bash resistance. Beyond that, some folks simply hate being stunned now and then. None of this should be interpreted as condescending. Far from it: Feeling confident about a character and enjoying its mechanics are critical if a player intends to succeed at taking that character to 60 and beyond. Few players stick with a character very long if they feel like they made a mistake when they created it.

Danth

It isn't a perceived advantage, it is quantifiable. Min/Max Warriors use it because when you are stunned, you cannot auto attack (generate agro), and you cannot dodge/parry/riposte (you take extra damage). Min/Max Shamans use it to recover from bad situations a bit faster than non-Ogres would be able to. Ogre Shamans are also keeping dodge during those resisted stuns, even though dodge is a fairly rare occurrence due to the low skill.

Not getting stunned saves seconds, which can be critical in an uncontrolled situation. When fighting a tough mob, even at 60 with Torpor, you can die in two minutes or less if everything goes south. Seconds can be critical to stabilize a situation. FSI isn't guaranteed, but when it triggers, it will factually help you more than 2 minutes of Troll standing regeneration, which is 160 HP total.

If you are completely in control of the mob from start to finish (which is the normal case if you are skilled), then neither racial matters at all. This is why Shaman race isn't a huge deal endgame. The question is simply which racial gives you the most bonus at 60. The answer is FSI, even though it isn't a game changer.

Crede

07-11-2020, 01:50 AM

It isn't a perceived advantage, it is quantifiable. Min/Max Warriors use it because when you are stunned, you cannot auto attack (generate agro), and you cannot dodge/parry/riposte (you take extra damage). Min/Max Shamans use it to recover from bad situations a bit faster than non-Ogres would be able to. Ogre Shamans are also keeping dodge during those resisted stuns, even though dodge is a fairly rare occurrence due to the low skill.

Not getting stunned saves seconds, which can be critical in an uncontrolled situation. When fighting a tough mob, even at 60 with Torpor, you can die in two minutes or less if everything goes south. Seconds can be critical to stabilize a situation. FSI isn't guaranteed, but when it triggers, it will factually help you more than 2 minutes of Troll standing regeneration, which is 160 HP total.

If you are completely in control of the mob from start to finish (which is the normal case if you are skilled), then neither racial matters at all. This is why Shaman race isn't a huge deal endgame. The question is simply which racial gives you the most bonus at 60. The answer is FSI, even though it isn't a game changer.

Let me reword your last sentence....

The answer is FSI(when you’re taking hits).

Raid and group shamans are not being hit 99.9% of the time. This is giving Trolls an advantage, your health will not always be at full, and the longer you aren’t at full which should be happening since you shouldn’t be torporing nonstop if you don’t have to, the more mana racial regen actually saves.

if you exclusively want to just go around soloing shit then yea I guess if snare isn’t needed on a mob then I’d probably want to be an ogre too in a solo situation. But literally every other scenario troll regen wins. Don’t care what your math says, ogres are NOT in any way better than trolls in group and raid situations where they aren’t tanking.

The fact that troll is a superior race in the majority of scenarios makes them the best min max race.

FSI is about convenience, not efficiency which is what the essence of min max is. Regen is indisputable efficiency, FSI is a security blanket.

kjs86z

07-11-2020, 12:22 PM

As I said many pages ago:

Ogre is best for players that will hit 60, acquire all spells, and go after very difficult solo targets. If farming plat / items alone is your favorite part of the game, you go Ogre.

Troll is best for players that plan on grouping to 60, focusing on raiding or small group content.

Barb is best for those that like being a Polar Bear.

Iksar is for people that want to be a lizard.

That being said, a barb shaman with all 60 spells can solo the same targets as the ogre. The ogre just has a slightly easier time.

Naethyn

07-11-2020, 02:09 PM

Iksar has the best questlines.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-11-2020, 04:38 PM

I made a few videos to show how Torpor Shamans regenerate with Torpor. People seem to think Torpor Shamans are not at 100% HP a good portion of the time. Only when they are actively in combat or casting will they be under 100% HP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc

This first video is me Torporing from low HP and Mana to full HP and Mana. The total length of the video is 3 minutes 47 seconds. A Troll would have regenerated 304 extra HP compared to an Ogre in this situation. That is 1/4th of a Torpor. You are saving casting one Torpor at best to get that 300 HP back. That is 24 seconds. Then you will be at 100% HP and NOT regenerating until your next battle or casting session. Regeneration isn't very useful when soloing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k&t

Here is a second video showing a simulated scenario of raid buffing 10 people with Riotous Health and Focus of Spirit, with two Primal Avatars thrown in. The total time is 12 minutes and 45 seconds to cast all the buffs AND get back to 100% HP, which is where you will stay in a raid a lot of the time, since raiding has a lot of waiting. This video is a little longer than a real situation, because I waited until 100% HP to re-FoS myself. This was to make sure people didn't claim I was healing with FoS to reduce the video time. A Troll would have regenerated 1004 HP in this time. That is basically 3/4th's of a Torpor. You are STILL only saving 24 seconds, or one Torpor. Then you will be at 100% HP, and not regenerating. Regeneration isn't very useful when raiding.

In grouping, you are saving a ton of HP most of the time due to having to tank less, and having a much higher total DPS with more people. Shaman soloing can be slow. You certainly aren't going to be spending more mana than the raid video I posted above in most cases. Regeneration isn't very useful when grouping.

I am not saying Regeneration doesn't help. I still use Fungi Staff, as shown in both videos. But it is not very useful once you have Torpor. FSI will help you in more situations than the low yield regeneration from Trolls, and the fact that you will be at 100% HP a good portion of the time. Any Torpor Shaman that isn't Torporing/Cannibalizing back to full life and mana is just playing the class inefficiently.

If you want to argue Trolls are better if you are super lazy and don't want to Torpor/Cannibalize, then I guess they are better. But in that scenario, you are less efficient than Ogres/Barbarians who play the class correctly. This ruins the whole argument for Regeneration anyway, since the main point when arguing for Regeneration is it allows you to be more efficient.

Jibartik

07-11-2020, 04:55 PM

Can't believe I watched both of these videos.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-11-2020, 04:57 PM

Can't believe I watched both of these videos.

It is strangely mesmerizing to watch a Shaman work, even though they are just doing the same thing over and over ad-nauseam:D

rabids

07-11-2020, 06:55 PM

I have a lot of situations where i cast constantly for long periods of time. Being main healer, buffer, slower and tank in a group? Great fun! About to wipe in fear due to bad luck/pull? Really fun to survive. Puller and main healer in group, exploring different areas and zones solo and a lot more examples. Never full mana or hp. The problem is getting time to cast all the spells that need casting. Thats what I like to do as a 60 torpor shammy. Not a lot of waiting. All the time regen runs. My regen in total makes a noticable difference, with buff/staff, fungi and troll. Each in its own is rather small, but together its a big deal.

If it takes a mob about 1,5 minutes to kill you the troll regen amounts to an item with 120 hp on it in terms of survivability. Nothing gamebreaking, but people would go a LONG way to get that kind of bonus hp. This doesnt in itself make it better then FSI, I just feel it is too easy to disregard it because it in itself doesnt make a big difference. EQ is about gathering as many small upgrades as possible. They add up. One 100 hp piece of gear doesnt make a big difference, but 10 of them will.

So for me and my playstyle, Im sure that troll regen is better then FSI. Add snare neck and its easy. For others, that wants to push whats possible with slow solo kills you might be right that ogre is better.

In my opinion no one can say that one or the other is best, because play styles are so different. The expression min-maxing can mean a lot of different things. In my book, if you are sitting around with full hp/mana all the time you are not min-maxing🙂

DeathsSilkyMist

07-11-2020, 08:10 PM

Made another video showing a Hechaeva kill:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU&t

Here are the results for the bashes during the whole fight:

1:47 - Bash happens in-between spell casts. Saves 1.5 seconds of stun time.
5:25 - Bash happens during Curse of The Spirits casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 9 seconds (1.5 from stun and the 7 or so seconds from the spent cast time).
5:55 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Save 6 seconds (1.5 from stun and 4.5 or so seconds from the spent cast time).
6:28 - Bash happens in-between spell casts. Saves 1.5 seconds of stun time.
6:57 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 6 seconds (1.5 from stun and 4.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
7:30 - Bash happens during Cannibalize casting half way. Gets interrupted. Saves 0.25 seconds (1.25 lost from interruption, 1.5 gained from stun time).
8:00 - Bash happens during Cannibalize at the end of the cast. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 4 seconds (1.5 from stun and 2.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
9:03 - Bash happens during Cannibalize casting half way. Gets interrupted. Saves 0.25 seconds (1.25 lost from interruption, 1.5 gained from stun time).
9:35 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 7 seconds (1.5 from stun and 5.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
10:06 - Bash happens during Winters Roar at the end of the cast. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 8 seconds (1.5 from stun and 6.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
11:09 - Bash happens in between casting. Saves 1.5 seconds.
12:43 - Bash happens near the beginning of Winters Roar. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 3 seconds (1.5 from stun and 1.5 or so seconds into the cast time).

Total time saved: Up to 48 seconds. There is no way to know which bashes would have been stuns.

Lets say that half of those bashes would have stunned, that is about 24 seconds saved if that is the case. The entire video is 22 minutes. A troll would have gained 1720 HP total with their 8 HP Regen per tick standing. That is 1.5 Torpors roughly. A Troll would have saved 48 seconds at the end of the fight healing, when he is out of danger. An Ogre saved up to 48 seconds of stuns and interrupts during the fight.

I have a lot of situations where i cast constantly for long periods of time. Being main healer, buffer, slower and tank in a group? Great fun! About to wipe in fear due to bad luck/pull? Really fun to survive. Puller and main healer in group, exploring different areas and zones solo and a lot more examples. Never full mana or hp. The problem is getting time to cast all the spells that need casting. Thats what I like to do as a 60 torpor shammy. Not a lot of waiting. All the time regen runs. My regen in total makes a noticable difference, with buff/staff, fungi and troll. Each in its own is rather small, but together its a big deal.

If it takes a mob about 1,5 minutes to kill you the troll regen amounts to an item with 120 hp on it in terms of survivability. Nothing gamebreaking, but people would go a LONG way to get that kind of bonus hp. This doesnt in itself make it better then FSI, I just feel it is too easy to disregard it because it in itself doesnt make a big difference. EQ is about gathering as many small upgrades as possible. They add up. One 100 hp piece of gear doesnt make a big difference, but 10 of them will.

So for me and my playstyle, Im sure that troll regen is better then FSI. Add snare neck and its easy. For others, that wants to push whats possible with slow solo kills you might be right that ogre is better.

In my opinion no one can say that one or the other is best, because play styles are so different. The expression min-maxing can mean a lot of different things. In my book, if you are sitting around with full hp/mana all the time you are not min-maxing��

Mathematically, you get 4800 HP per hour with Troll Regeneration. This assumes you are standing and casting for the whole hour, and are under 100% HP for the whole hour. That means you save 4 Torpors, or roughly 2 minutes per hour. It's really not that big of a bonus even when grouping/raiding. If you watch the other two videos on my Channel, you can see how quickly Torpor can get you back to full HP in both solo and Raid situations.

DMN

07-12-2020, 11:14 AM

Not all bash/stun/interrupts are created equal.

getting stunned on any DoT, any DD, and cannibalize are virtually all negligible. Because shaman work on equilibrium of health/mana, you are often waiting for cannabilizes and missing out on a DoT or DD is simply delaying the DD one tick or the DoT one tick. At the end of a long fight with a high HP mob like that,it will have virtually zero impact on the outcome of the fight and only grant a very small boost to your dps.

Additionally, you can mitigate the vast majority of these supposed "time lost" events if you were playing more smartly as you would be timing your spell casting to not have your longer spells coincide with a bash attempt. So if he should be bashing/kicking in the next 4-5 seconds, you should cannibalize until he does.

Edit: and as a side note, would you have been in a place where you can't abuse the pathing you'd have to properly deal with a fleeing mob, and in the case of shaman and summoning mob, that means rooting it and face tanking. So now you need to keep root going with all the other stuff you are keeping going and your dots/DD can all break root adding another problematic variable into the fight. At 15% HP a troll can just forever lock the mob in place with snare. That last 15% might be he time when a series of bad resists all come and you end up dying/gating. It's essentially like starting the fight with 15% of the hit points removed from the target. That's 15% less danger of shit going tits up.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-12-2020, 03:17 PM

Not all bash/stun/interrupts are created equal.

I already said as much in my previous post.

getting stunned on any DoT, any DD, and cannibalize are virtually all negligible. Because shaman work on equilibrium of health/mana, you are often waiting for cannabilizes and missing out on a DoT or DD is simply delaying the DD one tick or the DoT one tick. At the end of a long fight with a high HP mob like that,it will have virtually zero impact on the outcome of the fight and only grant a very small boost to your dps.

Both Troll Regeneration and Frontal Stun Immunity play little impact in most situations. Everyone here has agreed as much multiple times. Using the "negligible" argument is silly at this point. We are comparing which racial gives you the best "negligible" bonus. Troll Regeneration would have saved 48 seconds of healing at the end of the fight. Period. That is also negligible lol.

Additionally, you can mitigate the vast majority of these supposed "time lost" events if you were playing more smartly as you would be timing your spell casting to not have your longer spells coincide with a bash attempt. So if he should be bashing/kicking in the next 4-5 seconds, you should cannibalize until he does.

I purposely did not do this to show how often bashes occur, and what the best outcome is for FSI. Of course if you play perfectly FSI will matter less in a fight. But Ogres can be lazy if they want to, whereas Trolls can't. Trolls still only saved 48 seconds of healing at the end on this fight. In the video, I was never at a point where the 80 HP/Minute regeneration from Trolls would have saved my life.

The point I keep making is FSI can help in those random situations where a bash would have caused huge problems. These situations don't happen often, but FSI is far superior when these events occur. Trolls get nothing for those situations, other than 48 seconds less recovery time at the end of a fight. This is one of the downsides of the consistency of Troll regeneration. It is basically consistently useless most of the time. Same with FSI. But when FSI triggers on a bad situation, it helps a LOT more. That is why FSI is superior. You cannot get around the math of 4800 HP/Hour with Troll regeneration, which is saving you 4 Torpors max, or less than 2 minutes. If you time your Torpor as the server tick lands, you get 1500 HP per Torpor, so you are really only saving 3 Torpors per hour if you care that much about being efficient.

Edit: and as a side note, would you have been in a place where you can't abuse the pathing you'd have to properly deal with a fleeing mob, and in the case of shaman and summoning mob, that means rooting it and face tanking. So now you need to keep root going with all the other stuff you are keeping going and your dots/DD can all break root adding another problematic variable into the fight. At 15% HP a troll can just forever lock the mob in place with snare. That last 15% might be he time when a series of bad resists all come and you end up dying/gating. It's essentially like starting the fight with 15% of the hit points removed from the target. That's 15% less danger of shit going tits up.

I have made a Cliff Golem video to show another situation with a summoning mob, and without abusing pathing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY

As you can see, root and snare are not even needed here. A lot of hard targets Shamans want to go after don't run at 20%. So snare is useless for a good portion of mobs Shamans want to kill. Any mob that can be rooted can be snared. The clinging Darkness neck has the same resistance check as a root, it is a 6 second cast time, and it only lasts 6 ticks. If you try to cast Clinging Darkness near the end of it's lifetime and it gets resisted, it will wear off and then the mob is running again. A long lasting root will keep the mob in place longer, without you having to spam the necklace. Root also has a faster cast, when Root wears off prematurely.

Any mob that is hard AND runs (such as WW Dragons) would still run a decent amount before they hit the Clinging Darkness health threshold, which is somewhere around 15-10%, depending on the mob's run speed. This is because of how much HP they have. If you don't want to face tank a summoning mob, just use the strategy in the video above. It works just fine. I would love to see a situation where a Shaman NEEDS a snare to do anything meaningful. I will probably make a video sometime soon using https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn to show how bad Clinging Darkness is. I just need to find one for sale. Honestly the only situation where snare neck would matter is if you find a hard caster mob that can be blind kited AND the runway space you need is perfect for how bad the Clinging Darkness snare is. I don't think this specific situation is very common. When I have used blind kiting, I did it without snare just fine. It was in a big outdoor area with not a lot of mobs nearby.

When talking about racials, part of the bonus of FSI is it cannot be acquired via an item. Even if you can prove snare is some kind of God-sent to a Shaman (unlikely), all Shamans can get snare via https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn , https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction , and https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn . So snare necklace isn't anything special anyway in the end. On top of that, Spear of Constriction and Ball of Burlap Yarn actually have proper snares, that prevent the mob from running at 20%.

DMN

07-12-2020, 05:43 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-12-2020, 06:18 PM

That yarn is supposed to involve a "trivial" loot item that you shouldn't be able to get on blue. The spear is unlikely to be obtained by 99% of shamans, and even then it's not very good for using in a group situation. The scepter would also be an expensive pain in the ass to use with any regularity. Might still be good to have in an emergency though if you could make room for it.

As far as having your pet tanking for you. Heh. really gotta wonder just how classic p99 is. That golem should be destroying that pet or inflicting enough damage you'd have to pull aggro by healing i at least.

I completely agree Yarn and Scepter are a pain in the ass to get, and don't have a ton of charges. My point is that all mobs I have fought so far don't need me to snare them at all. This is in solo and group situations. I am completely fine without it. I have yet to find a fight where snare was needed, or would have had a considerable impact. If there is a rare, super hard fight where snare is needed, Shamans can get two items from the Warrens that handle this rare situation. On top of that, you can get the Spear from VP.

Most Shamans don't make it to becoming a Torpor Shaman, so the "VP loot rare" argument isn't that great either. I have said many times on this thread Trolls are the best Shaman hands down before you get Torpor. I know there are a lot of Torpor Shamans on P99 relatively, but it is still a large time and platinum investment most people don't have. Once you get to Torpor Shaman status, you have already proven your dedication to the class, and your ability to join a raid guild and get the VP spear, if you really want infinite snare.

I never played a Shaman on live, so I can't say what is or isn't classic for Shamans. All I can show you is how Shamans play on P99:)

DMN

07-12-2020, 07:50 PM

Who even raids VP on blue?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-12-2020, 08:12 PM

Who even raids VP on blue?

As far as I know VP is cleared every week. I am sure at least Riot does it. No reason not to, some of that loot is still top tier, even in Velious era.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Phara_Dar drops:
1. https://wiki.project1999.com/Sword_of_Rile Shieldskin proc, nice for tanking.
2. https://wiki.project1999.com/Crown_of_Rile
3. https://wiki.project1999.com/Yunnb%27s_Earring
4. https://wiki.project1999.com/Shroud_of_Veeshan
5. https://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Azure_Sky

All very popular items that are close to BiS, or have great utility, like Sword of Rile.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Druushk drops:
1. https://wiki.project1999.com/Blood_Orchid_Katana Clickie Sow for all classes!
2. https://wiki.project1999.com/Shissar_Deathspeaker_Staff life-tap DoT clickie.
3. https://wiki.project1999.com/Shissar_Focus_Staff free charm for mobs up to level 49

SoW sword alone is awesome for most classes.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Hoshkar drops:
1. https://wiki.project1999.com/Shissar_Apothic_Staff still drops. Free Greater Heals forever on a cleric.
2. https://wiki.project1999.com/Grey_Suede_Boots Not amazing, but it is the only boots haste item in the game, and max 41%. Could probably allow for some interesting gear re-arrangement potentially.

Cleric staff is great.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Nexona drops:
1. https://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_Adversity free DMF for raids.
2. https://wiki.project1999.com/Bo_Staff_of_Trorsmang still a great DPS weapon for a monk. Second best ratio weapon according to https://wiki.project1999.com/Special:ClassSlotEquip/Monk/2H_Blunt/AllItems followed by the legendary Abashi's. I think upgraded 2h primal/priceless might be a bit better. But this is still a great weapon if you get this before those.
3. https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_the_Guardian AC buff for Warriors. Still dropped version of https://wiki.project1999.com/Warding_Star

Probably the weakest dragon in VP item wise.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Xygoz drops:
1. https://wiki.project1999.com/Smoldering_Cudgel good shaman auto attack weapon. Pretty nice proc.
2. https://wiki.project1999.com/Robe_of_the_Spring free heals forever on a Druid. Combine this with https://wiki.project1999.com/Manastone for free canni and free heals.
3. https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction ensare spear for Shamans
4. https://wiki.project1999.com/Staff_of_Null Easier to get Monk dispell staff.

Great items overall on this dragon.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Silverwing drops:
1. https://wiki.project1999.com/Hammer_of_the_Dragonborn good raid buff.
2. https://wiki.project1999.com/The_Scimitar_of_Lifestealing great lifesteal item for the classes that can use it. An Iksar Shadowknight can have Epic, Greenmist, and this weapon for a lot of lifesteal procs that can overlap.

I am not a VP expert, so I apologize if I missed a few items that are good. VP is definitely still worth it, even though quite a few items are now just OK.

rabids

07-12-2020, 08:46 PM

Lots of faulty logic here...

"Snare is no good since I have yet to need it." Same for me with FSI. I cant recall even one time that would have saved my life. It has probably happened without me thinking about it, but I would bet that you have needed snare without thinking about it. Since I actually have snare, I can name a lot of times where it made my life a lot easier.

"Just get a snare item from VP or warrens." You are just plain wrong when you try to make it sound as if getting stuff from vp is easy as long as you have torpor. I am sure that most of the torpor shamans very seldom sees the inside of VP. If you wanted the items from the warrens you would have to either twink someone so they can solo group content at the right level or pl a noob in an empty zone. That is a pain. Good idea if you NEED snare for a specific encounter, cant replace the snare neck.

You argue that we cant use the argument that FSI is a marginal bonus, yet you made several videos about how regen is marginal.

It seems as if the only thing worthwile is something that can save you and that the only thing regen does is help with downtime. Every time you get really low but dont die as a troll your regen has saved your life. Where that limit goes is decided from how long the fight has been and if you had time to heal more then you did. I can remember lost of really close calls. FSI might have saved me in some of those situations too (but not all! Caster mobs anyone?). But its wrong that regen only saves time beteen fights.

I still think that FSI can be better then regen and snare, but not for me and not for a lot of others. It all depends on how you play and what you want to do with your shammy. Its kind of arrogant to say you know what race is best for all torpor shammies.

You cherry pick situations in order to make your points. Cliff golems in Overthere are easy with or without snare. Everyone who has been in more then two groups knows that snare is important in crowded dangerous places, not in outdoors zones surrounded by mobs half your level🙂

DeathsSilkyMist

07-12-2020, 09:13 PM

"Snare is no good since I have yet to need it." Same for me with FSI. I cant recall even one time that would have saved my life. It has probably happened without me thinking about it, but I would bet that you have needed snare without thinking about it. Since I actually have snare, I can name a lot of times where it made my life a lot easier.

I have never said FSI is a make or break ability:) I have been comparing the "negligible" benefits both Trolls and Ogres get when they are level 60 with Torpor. I have shown real life examples, and the actual math. It is really that simple. I am trying to show reality. For some reason, people think there is some kind of mystique behind these racials/abilities. I want to dispel that notion, so people can learn.

Please show me some encounters with high level monsters that were considerably easier with Snare Neck than without. I am talking about encounters as a level 60 Shaman with Torpor. It is quite easy to prove your point if you are correct. I never said Snare Neck was useless, or bad for leveling. I keep saying Trolls are the best Shaman race Pre-Torpor. If your Snare Neck examples are with a Pre-Torpor Shaman, I do not disagree with you that Trolls are better than Ogres Pre-Torpor.

"Just get a snare item from VP or warrens." You are just plain wrong when you try to make it sound as if getting stuff from vp is easy as long as you have torpor. I am sure that most of the torpor shamans very seldom sees the inside of VP. If you wanted the items from the warrens you would have to either twink someone so they can solo group content at the right level or pl a noob in an empty zone. That is a pain. Good idea if you NEED snare for a specific encounter, cant replace the snare neck.

I never said VP loot was easy. I don't have a VP Key either lol. I said anyone who actually becomes a Torpor Shaman has enough time and money to get a VP spear. The obvious exception is if you have been playing a little bit for many many years to get to that point. My point is that snare is not very useful at level 60 with a Torpor Shaman, and you CAN get it if you want it. You cannot get FSI from ANY zone at ANY point in the game. You either are an Ogre, or you aren't. And if you cannot get to VP, there are still clickies available that are much easier to get, for the rare situation where snare is warranted.

You argue that we cant use the argument that FSI is a marginal bonus, yet you made several videos about how regen is marginal.

It seems as if the only thing worthwile is something that can save you and that the only thing regen does is help with downtime. Every time you get really low but dont die as a troll your regen has saved your life. Where that limit goes is decided from how long the fight has been and if you had time to heal more then you did. I can remember lost of really close calls. FSI might have saved me in some of those situations too (but not all! Caster mobs anyone?). But its wrong that regen only saves time beteen fights.

Where did I say FSI isn't a marginal bonus? I apologize if I sounded like that. I have always been comparing FSI to Troll Regeneration and Snare Neck. I never said FSI is some game breaking ability. Both Troll and Ogre racials are pretty marginal at level 60 with Torpor. I proved that multiple times.

If you watch my videos, you can see that I never get to 10% health or lower. I never got close to the point where Troll Regeneration might have saved my life. If I do get that low, FSI could save me as well. That is the point. Both situations have a low chance of happening if you are a good Shaman. The question is simply which one is BETTER when that horrible situation occurs. The answer is FSI, due to how much more HP and time it could save in a short period of time.

I still think that FSI can be better then regen and snare, but not for me and not for a lot of others. It all depends on how you play and what you want to do with your shammy. Its kind of arrogant to say you know what race is best for all torpor shammies.

You cherry pick situations in order to make your points. Cliff golems in Overthere are easy with or without snare. Everyone who has been in more then two groups knows that snare is important in crowded dangerous places, not in outdoors zones surrounded by mobs half your level

I am not trying to be arrogant or know-it-all. I am just trying to show the facts, so other players can benefit.

I am not trying to cherry pick situations. I am simply giving real world examples, based on my experience. I haven't recorded all of Everquest yet, to unequivocally prove my point. Maybe I will eventually:) I have simply been providing EVIDENCE. If you have counter evidence, please show it, and I would love to discuss it. If I am wrong, then I will learn something as a Shaman, which is always welcome.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-12-2020, 11:46 PM

FSI might have saved me in some of those situations too (but not all! Caster mobs anyone?).

Everyone who has been in more then two groups knows that snare is important in crowded dangerous places, not in outdoors zones surrounded by mobs half your level��

I made another video showing me kill Cryptmaster placeholder. This is in Chardok, with me killing 3 mobs in close proximity in 15 minutes. I need to do that because respawn timers are around 20 minutes. The reason why the video cuts once around 4 minutes 18 seconds is because I /q to avoid the faction hit. That is also why the video ends a few seconds early, right before the kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c

1. Croweded dangerous place? Check
2. Indoor zone? Check
3. Not surrounded by mobs half my level? Check
4. Getting constantly hit by a spell caster mob? Check

If I had moved 10 more feet in any direction in that video, I would have agroed a bunch of mobs and died. There is no where in this video where snare would have been useful. In fact, Clinging Darkness would have killed me. If the mobs ran for two ticks while waiting for their health to get to 12% or where-ever it needs to be for Clinging Darkness, I would have agroed mobs and died. If you take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c&t=82s specifically, you will see how close the mobs are. They are even closer when I am killing the Cryptmaster. Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c&t=525s and you will briefly see the name of a skeleton or two in the near distance. To the right of me (you can't see it) is a skeleton no more than 5 or 6 feet away.

Troll Regeneration wouldn't have helped here either. The lowest I get in the video is 17%, or around 450 Health https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c&t=104s , this was due to a lucky life tap from the Necro. At that point, Troll Regeneration would have given me something like 140 HP. I would not have died at 450 HP, or 590 HP.

EDIT: Also, Chardok mobs don't run (at least not the ones I've fought). So Snare Neck is basically useless in Chardok.

Also, notice the Cryptmaster is carrying a Torch. This means he is more deadly than usual, because he is dual wielding.

Bardp1999

07-13-2020, 03:09 AM

greenspectre

07-13-2020, 07:36 AM

Best shaman is barbarian (eyepatch) with full rubicite armor and a glorious horned helm, or even possibly a polar bear helm. Ogres and Trolls cant even sniff Barbarians in fashion quest, and fashion quest is the ultimate end game of P99. Therefore barbarian is the master race in concern to the shaman question.

This is the gospel truth. I can't count the number of between-cast butt-scratches that happened in those videos. Barbs can do the same stuff but look FLY while doing it.

Also, disagree on face. Daniel Day-Lewis barbface is the best.

rabids

07-13-2020, 07:37 AM

Please show me some encounters with high level monsters that were considerably easier with Snare Neck than without.

First off, why does it have to be considerable? A lot of constant bonuses are also very nice. But ok, for instance if you want to farm the beetles in sebilis, there is a krup wanderer that can gate down to the guardian if its a caster. If you have to root it, you risk it gating and casting some very nasty DD while you root it. Not efficient and potencially very dangerous. Soloing in the crypt in seb, its nice with snare so that you only have to kill it down to 10% (keep it rooted till the snare actually stops the mob.) Dungeon crawling down in the hole there are a LOT of places snare is very practical. It wont always save your life, but its enough for me with a constant make your life easier.

I never said VP loot was easy. I said anyone who actually becomes a Torpor Shaman has enough time and money to get a VP spear.

These are basically the same thing. Maybe easy is the wrong word to sum up what you are saying, but I still say that this is wrong. Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual. If you want to get it yourself, you only need up to one group. Cant compare that with top end raiding. We are talking about the best race for a lvl 60 torpor shammy, not a lvl 60 torpor shammy with all the drops they want from raids, no?

You cannot get FSI from ANY zone at ANY point in the game.

This is a good point. Not enough for me to feel that ogre would have been better for my play style, but I agree 100% with this point.

Where did I say FSI isn't a marginal bonus?

You know what, I read one of your previous posts wrong. You havent said that it isnt a marginal bonus. But you do keep saying that FSI can save your life and regen and snare is at best utility. They can all save your life.

Troll Regeneration would have saved 48 seconds of healing at the end of the fight. Period.

Lots of other places in this discussion do you say that FSI can save your life, while regen can only save you some time and snare isnt really needed. All three can save your life now and then.

I have shown real life examples, and the actual math. It is really that simple. I am trying to show reality. For some reason, people think there is some kind of mystique behind these racials/abilities.

Just because you use videos that shows regen not being great doesnt mean that it cant be great. In none of your videos does FSI help you that much either. And i dont have a problem with your math, I just have a problem with your interpretation of it. I dont think that there is some kind of mystique behind this, who in here has led you to conclude that?

I am not trying to be arrogant or know-it-all. I am just trying to show the facts, so other players can benefit.

I dont believe that you are trying to be arrogant, or that you as a person are. I get the opposite impression, that you are respectful to the ones that disagree with you. But I feel that your arguments are a bit arrogant, because you are saying that you know best for everyone. Even though (Im guessing) you have never tried to play a torpor shammy with snare a snare clicky. Have you played a troll shammy with torpor?

I havent played an ogre, but then I only agrue that some of us know best witch race is best for our play style. I am not saying that you would be better off playing a troll.

1. Croweded dangerous place? Check
2. Indoor zone? Check
3. Not surrounded by mobs half my level? Check
4. Getting constantly hit by a spell caster mob? Check

I forget to note that they also has to be runners:P Nice video, but not an example of why snare neck doesnt really help. Also, killing a mob that is fighting back the last 10% is a lot more work then killing one thats just standing there.

Troll Regeneration wouldn't have helped here either. The lowest I get in the video is 17%, or around 450 Health

True, it wouldnt have saved your life this time. But you would have had more then 450 left.

If I were to record fights I have had, I guess I could have made a lot of videos of me not being saved by FSI. That wouldnt have proven that FSI cant save me.

I would guess that some times you die with a small margin, and in all those cases being troll might have saved you. Maybe from AEs? If you die to AE's FSI doesnt help at all. Regen can save you. Anyone been below 5-10% from AE's and then survived? I have.

I agree that FSI is pretty cool and I wish I had it. But I love my regen and snare and I really feel that it gives me more consistent bonuses. though sometimes it is almost completely useless, but it doesnt have to save my life every encounter to be good.

I wasnt really planning on getting drawn into this discussion, but here I am:) It has at least led to me wanting to pick up my old shaman and play p99 again.

I think bardp1999 summed it up pretty nicely:
Best shaman is barbarian (eyepatch) with full rubicite armor and a glorious horned helm, or even possibly a polar bear helm. Ogres and Trolls cant even sniff Barbarians in fashion quest, and fashion quest is the ultimate end game of P99. Therefore barbarian is the master race in concern to the shaman question.

Min-maxing isnt the same for everyone. Barb is the best shammy race for min-maxing.

greenspectre

07-13-2020, 08:45 AM

https://imgur.com/a/oGVX2Zb

You know I had to do it to 'em.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-13-2020, 12:30 PM

I wasnt really planning on getting drawn into this discussion, but here I am:) It has at least led to me wanting to pick up my old shaman and play p99 again.

You totally should! Thanks for taking the time, I always enjoy discussion:)

Min-maxing isnt the same for everyone. Barb is the best shammy race for min-maxing.

This is what I mean when I say mystique. Min/Max is factual, not personal preference. There is a Shaman race that has the best racial bonuses for the Shaman class mathematically and statistically. I have said multiple times in this thread if fashion quest is your preference, that is perfectly fine. No Shaman race will give you a huge advantage. But that isn't Min/Max, that is personal preference and fashion questing.

First off, why does it have to be considerable? A lot of constant bonuses are also very nice. But ok, for instance if you want to farm the beetles in sebilis, there is a krup wanderer that can gate down to the guardian if its a caster. If you have to root it, you risk it gating and casting some very nasty DD while you root it. Not efficient and potencially very dangerous. Soloing in the crypt in seb, its nice with snare so that you only have to kill it down to 10% (keep it rooted till the snare actually stops the mob.) Dungeon crawling down in the hole there are a LOT of places snare is very practical. It wont always save your life, but its enough for me with a constant make your life easier.

The reason why I say considerable is because I have still yet to find a situation where Snare Neck would have given me some kind of advantage. I am not denying the utility of snare, I am mostly pointing out that Shaman strategies and popular farm locations don't really need it. This is why Troll Snare Neck isn't any kind of amazing item that changes what a Shaman can do. And as I keep saying, if there is a super rare situation that could only be done with snare, you have other options. When using the FD ring, for example, you don't get many charges to work with before you have to go back up to Sky. With Puppet Strings before it got nerfed, you had to get two and recharge them in a safe location. With only 10 charges, you didn't have a lot to work with either. It isn't anything new for Shamans to have to recharge or re-buy some clickies for very specific encounters. So if there is a very rare encounter where snare is needed, just think of Yarn Ball or Scepter as one of those items. And if you want a good, infinite snare, you can go after VP spear too.

I am glad you brought up Gating. If you watch the Chardok video, the specific reason why I am fighting the first Gravebinder in that tiny hallway is because he can Gate. If you fight a mob close enough to their spawn point, they will not Gate. His spawn point is close enough to the mobs on the left to agro them if he did Gate. But since he is close to the spawn point, he will not Gate the last few feet back to his spawn point.

In Seb specifically, I haven't had a problem with Gating mobs yet. Maybe I'll make a video about that next. The caster frogs don't have a ton of HP, and you can resist most if not all of their spells with resistance gear. You can also use root and Line of Sight to avoid their spell casting. Most of the time you can just kill the caster mobs at their spawn point. I haven't done Seb in a while, so I can't recall that specific pather. You could probably kill it without snare just fine. Let it run and tripple DoT it right before it goes to 20%.

I will totally concede that snare would be useful in this specific situation:

1. You cannot kill the Gating mob at or near it's spawn point.
2. The mob DOES run at 20%.
3. You cannot create a runway big enough to allow the mob to run unless you have Clinging Darkness.

I have yet to run into this situation, however. I specifically say Clinging Darkness in number 3 because if you need a regular snare to do the trick, then you MUST use Yarn ball or VP spear.

These are basically the same thing. Maybe easy is the wrong word to sum up what you are saying, but I still say that this is wrong. Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual. If you want to get it yourself, you only need up to one group. Cant compare that with top end raiding. We are talking about the best race for a lvl 60 torpor shammy, not a lvl 60 torpor shammy with all the drops they want from raids, no?

Top end raiding isn't that hard, it just takes time. If you have the time to create a level 60 Torpor Shaman, you have the time to top end raid. I have done both:) I have already discussed the "Fungi's are easy to get" argument in another thread I think. There are four problems with this argument when talking about casual players:

1. Casual players don't have the time to sink multiple hours into a King camp. If you can do that, you can raid. That is my point. You need to be EXTREMELY lucky to get a Fungi drop in 2 hours at King. If you can play 4+ hours at a time, you could easily raid.
2. It can take a while to even get a King group. That camp is done by 3-6 player max, and they usually replace people with their friends if they can. You really need to get lucky or know people to consistently get a King group.
3. You can get horribly unlucky. I myself have spent quite a bit of time at King, and have yet to see the King even spawn, much less drop a Fungi Tunic or Fungi Staff.
4. If you are a level 60 Shaman without Torpor, you are less likely to get a King group, because King groups would prefer a Torpor Shaman. Not saying you can't get a King group as a Pre-Torpor Shaman, it simply further decreases your chances.

Lots of other places in this discussion do you say that FSI can save your life, while regen can only save you some time and snare isnt really needed. All three can save your life now and then.

I never denied that regeneration couldn't save your life. Of course it can. The reason why I keep saying "It would have saved 48 seconds at the end", is because in those videos, I never get to a point where it would have saved my life. You can do the math across the entire video, and compare my heal bar with and without Troll Regeneration. If you never get low enough for it to save your life, then all it did was save 48 seconds of recovery time, which is not very useful due to how quickly you gain resources back. That is all I am saying.

I am simply trying to deduce which ability will save your life MORE. That is what determines which ability is superior. Of course there are some situations where a little extra regeneration would have saved your life. But if that situation occurs 20% less often than an FSI save, for example, then FSI is the superior Min/Max choice. This is not because Trolls have never been saved by their regeneration, it is because Ogres have been saved by FSI MORE. And again, I have yet to find a situation where a 6 second clicky with a terrible snare would have saved my life. Most Shaman strategies and camps have a solution to the problems they face without snare.

Even though (Im guessing) you have never tried to play a torpor shammy with snare a snare clicky. Have you played a troll shammy with torpor?

I have never played a Troll Shaman. You are correct. But you really don't need to play a Troll Shaman specifically to know where snare is useful, and how much damage mitigation you get with Troll regeneration. This is another thing I kind of think as a mystique. You don't always have to play the specific race to figure out the pros/cons. I am confident enough in my knowledge of Torpor Shamans, and Everquest mechanics in general, to make these deductions. I also have video proof:)

I have a 56 Troll Shadowknight, so I can easily test Troll Regeneration AND Clinging Darkness.

I also have a 24 Cleric with the Snare Neck, so I know how it operates. The cast time is long, the duration is short, the snare is bad, and resistances can happen.

I would guess that some times you die with a small margin, and in all those cases being troll might have saved you. Maybe from AEs? If you die to AE's FSI doesnt help at all. Regen can save you. Anyone been below 5-10% from AE's and then survived? I have.

This is a perfect situation where Troll Regeneration could save your life, whereas FSI would not do anything. The only reason why I say this is a VERY small percentage of saving you, is because of how AoE fights typically go. I have been in a lot of them. Resistances and Max HP play a much bigger role overall than Troll Regeneration in MOST cases. I am not saying Trolls have never been saved here due to their extra Regeneration, but it is usually pretty clear cut if you are going to die or not to AoE spam. At least from my experience. In many AoE fights, Line of Sight is used to avoid AoE spam. In the fights where it cannot be avoided, the fight is usually pretty quick. Either the raid wipes, or it wins.

DMN

07-13-2020, 02:14 PM

I also have a 24 Cleric with the Snare Neck, so I know how it operates. The cast time is long, the duration is short, the snare is bad, and resistances can happen.

Ya the cast time is long. But not a big deal if you are soloing a slowed mob. You can also mediate during the cast time if its possible to do so. Duration is 48 seconds. I'm not sure I'd call that "short". Resists do happen so you have decide if you want to refresh it with plenty of time to spare or risk it breaking. In which case it'snot a big deal to go back to rooting. At the end of the day it's pretty much an auto win if you can get a mob to flee into durp mode. Root requires you to continue fighting a summoning mob and it can break any time. If you need a mob held somewhere with 100 certainty it doesn't move at all snare is waaaaaaaay better than keeping it rooted because of root's random duration.

Actually it looks like its bugged on blue perhaps green too and is only lasting 5 ticks.

kjs86z

07-13-2020, 02:22 PM

I have a barb shaman and I look far better than any ogre or troll.

Does anything else matter?

Snaggles

07-13-2020, 02:22 PM

Yea except a 24 cleric doesn’t have Malo and runners have like 100 hps left in the tank. If you can take the time to click a JBB you can mix in a snare attempt every three or four JBB’s.

This whole thread is a bit silly. Racial perks for a warrior or SK are hardly with the debate. Let alone a torp epic sham getting into a very long battle. Theory crafting is fun but don’t think it’s going to make or break the game...

DeathsSilkyMist

07-13-2020, 02:42 PM

Duration is 48 seconds. I'm not sure I'd call that "short".

https://wiki.project1999.com/Clinging_Darkness

Duration is 6 ticks. 6 x 6 = 36 seconds. The cast time is 6 seconds, so you lose 1 tick if you want constant overlap. I believe you can get up to 42 seconds out of the snare if you cast it right after a server tick occurs. So you have to re-cast it every 3-6 ticks, depending on when you cast it tick wise, and how many potential resists you feel comfortable with.

With all of the casting Shamans need to do, that is not great. You can only really maintain it on one mob at a time, without constantly casting Snare Neck. You would need to root the other mobs while babysitting the chosen mob with Snare Neck.

On top of that, the snare is bad. Mobs don't stop running at 20% with Clinging Darkness. So you are still assuming you are in an area where your runway is ONLY big enough for a mob to run with Clinging Darkness until 15%-10% health. I just haven't really seen that situation. I would love to, if you can show it.

Root requires you to continue fighting a summoning mob and it can break any time. If you need a mob held somewhere with 100 certainty it doesn't move at all snare is waaaaaaaay better than keeping it rooted because of root's random duration.

Can you show an example of a summoning mob that runs, and snare helps considerably? I showed WW Dragons. They run and summon, but snare wouldn't have mattered here. Yes, snare could have saved me a few minutes because I wouldn't have to melee the mob down (it is hard to cast on mobs underwater due to LoS issues). But it doesn't make me any safer. The mob is still running in an area without adds. If I wanted to save time, I would just root the Dragon at 20% and finish it off. I have plenty of resources left at the end of the fight to do that. A Troll would still only save 48 seconds of recovery time, whether they snare, root, or chase.

With Cliff Golems and Chardok, the mobs don't run, so snare is useless. In Seblis the trash mobs are considerably weaker, and I haven't ran into any situations where snare would have helped. Kill Gate mobs at their spawn points, and use resistance gear and LoS to prevent nasty spells from landing.

Yea except a 24 cleric doesn’t have Malo and runners have like 100 hps left in the tank. If you can take the time to click a JBB you can mix in a snare attempt every three or four JBB’s.

This whole thread is a bit silly. Racial perks for a warrior or SK are hardly with the debate. Let alone a torp epic sham getting into a very long battle. Theory crafting is fun but don’t think it’s going to make or break the game...

You can watch my videos I posted previously. This isn't theory craft. You can do the math at any time in the videos. I was simply pointing out I do have the Snare Neck, AND I have a Shadowknight, so I am pretty comfortable with my knowledge in how the Snare Neck operates, and how Clinging Darkness operates. I agree Shamans get less resists because of Malo and Tash stick, but hard mobs resist more often, even with debuffs.

Snaggles

07-13-2020, 02:48 PM

DeathsSilkyMist

07-13-2020, 02:52 PM

Snare, FSI on a 75% slowed mob, a few mins of standing +12/tick regen. It’s all pretty worthless.

Arguably the best racial perk is the xp bonus a Barbarian has for a game that demands a cruel number of hours to hit max level.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Iksar

It's +8 Regeneration a tick standing compared to Ogres/Barbarians at level 60, not +12.

I have stated multiple times in this thread no racial is make or break for a Torpor Shaman. The OP was basically asking which racials are superior. At the end of the day, neither matter much, but one IS superior from a mathematical and statistical perspective. We are simply deducing which one is better, for people who care about getting the most out of their character. If you don't then it doesn't matter:)

DMN

07-13-2020, 02:59 PM

Well, they don't need to be summoning mobs necessarily. Just dangerous spell casters who flee. And living mobs in chardok don't flee? I did chardok a ton back in the day and all the living mobs there should be flee-enabled.

Also the snare duration like I mentioned above seems bugged. You are right that it should be 6 ticks but right now it'snot getting the proper ticks. At least not when I just tested it. And it's 20% for regular snare 15% for clinging darkness snare.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-13-2020, 03:05 PM

Well, they don't need to be summoning mobs necessarily. Just dangerous spell casters who flee. And living mobs in chardok don't flee? I did chardok a ton back in the day and all the living mobs there should be flee-enabled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c

The first mob I fought in this video is single, and a living mob. I never rooted him, and he did not flee at 20%. The only thing he will do is gate if he is too far away from his spawn point.

I haven't soloed all the mobs in Chardok yet, so if there is a fleeing mob, that would be great to know. I just haven't seen it yet.

DMN

07-13-2020, 03:16 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS3uoIHTu_c

The first mob I fought in this video is single, and a living mob. I never rooted him, and he did not flee at 20%. The only thing he will do is gate if he is too far away from his spawn point.

I haven't soloed all the mobs in Chardok yet, so if there is a fleeing mob, that would be great to know. I just haven't seen it yet.

It's possible there are some nearby allies in assist range of him but not in LOS. Course it could also just be not classic heh.

rabids

07-13-2020, 04:32 PM

This is what I mean when I say mystique. Min/Max is factual, not personal preference. There is a Shaman race that has the best racial bonuses for the Shaman class mathematically and statistically. I have said multiple times in this thread if fashion quest is your preference, that is perfectly fine. No Shaman race will give you a huge advantage. But that isn't Min/Max, that is personal preference and fashion questing.

My point here isnt that barbarian is the best, it is that play styles are different. Nothing mystical about that.

Why are you talking about fungis? My point wasnt that you could get lots of fungis as a casual, it was that anyone can get money. Killing guards, grouping in where ever and winning randoms, farming gems for armor, etc etc. You say that you know a lot about EQ, you should know that you can get money as a casual. You can also farm torpor with a couple of friends. I have done guardian wurms with 3 people, without torpor.

So torpor shammy isnt the same as raiding shammy. Now if we were talking about best race for a high end raiding shammy with lots of BiS and torpor I might agree that ogre is best. But I thought we were talking about torpor shammies, and there is a lot of different kinds of torpor shammies. Not everyone has maxed out resists, not everyone has a shit ton of hp (making the extra effective hp you have from regen count more) and not everyone has or can get snare spears.

There is a lot of snare quotes I could bring up, but I will just say this. I am stupified that we are discussing whether or not snare is any good. Groups can wipe because they have no snare. Snare is good. You say you know a lot about EQ, you should know that snare is good. Our clicky snare is really bad compared to the good ones, but a crappy snare is still good compared to no snare. I would say the burden of proof lays with the party with the opinion that differs from the majority. I think that the majority of EQ players would agree that snare is good. So I wont spend any more time trying to prove to you that snare is good. It just is. Prove me wrong. Speaking of proof brings me to my next point, one of my main points through this whole discussion.

I also have video proof
I have simply been providing EVIDENCE.
I have shown the factual math, you can't escape it

There are lots of similar quotes I could pull up from this thread. All wrong. You have video examples (IMO cherry picked) and calculations that slightly strengthen your arguments. That is not proof or evidence in itself. If I film myself killing something without healing myself, does that prove that healing isnt important? Of course not. It just prove that I can kill that specific mob without healing. An extreme and absurd example, but that is what you are doing. You have some videos where you dont need snare and you say that torpored shamans have no use of snare. Some vidoes where the troll regen (or the FSI for that matter) makes just about no difference and you say that troll regen doesnt make any real difference.

It is much easier to prove something happening (show a video of something happening) then prove that something wont happen. Or science would have disproven ghosts and religion long ago.

You talk about facts, math, evidence, reality and proof, but as a chemical engineer I can say that it takes a lot more then what you have presented to prove something according to those standards.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-13-2020, 05:16 PM

Why are you talking about fungis? My point wasnt that you could get lots of fungis as a casual, it was that anyone can get money. Killing guards, grouping in where ever and winning randoms, farming gems for armor, etc etc. You say that you know a lot about EQ, you should know that you can get money as a casual. You can also farm torpor with a couple of friends. I have done guardian wurms with 3 people, without torpor.

The reason why I am talking about Fungi's is because of what you said:

Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual.

You literally said it is easy to get some lucky Fungi drops as a casual:D

I never claimed farming money is hard. But it is time consuming in most cases, unless you get lucky. So is raiding. If you can spend the time to farm 100k and get to level 60, you can probably find time to raid. Fungi Farming and GWurms usually require hours of time back to back to see results, so if you can play 3+ hours at a time, you can raid. If you are so casual that you can only do guard farming for 1 hour a day forever, then yes, raiding won't be for you.

I never said you can't do GWurms or King without Torpor. I have done both without Torpor as well. But both of those spots can be done with a small number of people. This means if you are grouping with randos, they will pick a Torpor Shaman over you if they had the choice. If you have a farm crew that gets together all the time, that is great! Not a lot of people have that though, especially casuals.

So torpor shammy isnt the same as raiding shammy.

But I thought we were talking about torpor shammies, and there is a lot of different kinds of torpor shammies.

This is mystique again. All Torpor Shamans operate EXACTLY the same. All players can acquire the proper gear and strategies to do all of the Shaman content possible if they dedicate enough time and platinum. The only thing a Torpor Shaman cannot do is swap racials. You are stuck with whatever racials you get from the start. That is why people debate about which racial is best. It is literally the only thing that is different between Torpor Shamans.

There is a lot of snare quotes I could bring up, but I will just say this. I am stupified that we are discussing whether or not snare is any good.

Where did I ever debate that snare is bad? I said snare isn't very useful for Shaman specific strategies and farm spots. That is different from saying snare is bad. Also, Snare neck is specifically the WORST snare in the game, on top of having a long cast time, so it is an extremely limited snare. Snare is amazing for quadding, for example. Shamans can't quad though, even with all of their snare items. Even if you could find a way to ghetto quad, it wouldn't be as effective as the other Shaman strategies available. Different spells have different benefits for different classes when soloing.

When grouping (3+ people), you will probably have a person who can snare, and do it way better than Snare Neck. This is especially true if an encounter requires a snare. Nobody is expecting a Shaman to break out the snares when building a group, nor should they.

here are lots of similar quotes I could pull up from this thread. All wrong. You have video examples (IMO cherry picked) and calculations that slightly strengthen your arguments. That is not proof or evidence in itself. If I film myself killing something without healing myself, does that prove that healing isnt important? Of course not. It just prove that I can kill that specific mob without healing. An extreme and absurd example, but that is what you are doing. You have some videos where you dont need snare and you say that torpored shamans have no use of snare. Some vidoes where the troll regen (or the FSI for that matter) makes just about no difference and you say that troll regen doesnt make any real difference.

It is much easier to prove something happening (show a video of something happening) then prove that something wont happen. Or science would have disproven ghosts and religion long ago.

You talk about facts, math, evidence, reality and proof, but as a chemical engineer I can say that it takes a lot more then what you have presented to prove something according to those standards.

I am a game programmer. I deal with logic and facts, specific to gaming. I am providing evidence for my claims. That is how this works lol. I make a claim, and I provide evidence. If you want to dispute my claim, please provide counter evidence. You do not get to say "Your evidence is insufficient!" without providing any of your own. I am 100% open to being wrong here. But I have yet to see people posting even one scenario where snare would have made a huge difference on a Torpor Shaman. And AGAIN, even if you can show a rare scenario, other Shamans have 3 different options to acquire snare if they want to. Yes, having charges on items is a pain in the ass, but Snare Neck is not giving a Troll an advantage other Shaman races cannot get too. At worst, it is simply preventing you from doing that specific situation as often, without replenishing your charge items first. But Shamans are not new to this. FD ring and Puppet Strings are also items with charges, and they are used in very specific Shaman scenarios.

rabids

07-13-2020, 06:54 PM

The reason why I am talking about Fungi's is because of what you said:

Originally Posted by rabids
Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual.

You literally said it is easy to get some lucky Fungi drops as a casual:D

Read my quote again. There is an "or" there. Meaning that you need two fungis (named because they are a staple of the economy) OR a couple of weeks of lucky drops of other stuff. And I am sure that you understood that even though I was talking about fungis I was discussing whether or not its possible to get 100k while still being casual, not whether or not you can get a fungi as a casual.

Im paraphrasing here but you basically say that if you can get lvl 60 and torpor you can just as well raid in the end game. Im calling bullshit. Actually getting a shaman to lvl 60 is easier then many classes, because we are good soloers and very sought after in groups.

This is mystique again. All Torpor Shamans operate EXACTLY the same. All players can acquire the proper gear and strategies to do all of the Shaman content possible if they dedicate enough time and platinum. The only thing a Torpor Shaman cannot do is swap racials. You are stuck with whatever racials you get from the start. That is why people debate about which racial is best. It is literally the only thing that is different between Torpor Shamans.

You are nitpicking at words again. You should know by now that I am talking about different play styles and different gear. That was the whole point in that paragraph you take my quote from. That the needs of a BiS end game raiding shaman is different from a lvl 60 torpored shaman that isnt raiding. Would you say that a shaman with gear for a total of 50k with torpor operates the same as a shaman with all BiS and lots of clickies? I call bullshit again.

If you want to discuss what is best for a shaman at the end of their potential with all BiS and clickies, say so. That is a totally different discussion then just a shaman with torpor. All players CAN aquire what you call "proper" gear and strategies if they have the time (many dont), but not all will or even want to. And add to that they want to do different things with their gear and strategies.

Where did I ever debate that snare is bad? I said snare isn't very useful for Shaman specific strategies and farm spots.
I have still yet to find a situation where Snare Neck would have given me some kind of advantage.
So snare is useless for a good portion of mobs Shamans want to kill.

Ok, sorry. You didnt say that snare is bad. You said snare is bad for a shaman with torpor. Nitpicking at words just a bit? Snare is good, even for shammies. Get over it:) Btw, that last quote is also pointing out my previous point. You make yourself judge over what shamans want to kill. That is a big flaw in your argument, as I have said several times. Different play styles needs different things. Not everyone raids, not everyone wants to kill WW dragons and that is ok. Shamans can still do challenging things and want to min-max.

This is starting to get systematic, you focus on a small part of what I write and totally forget my actual point. Sometimes you just dont reply to it at all.

You do not get to say "Your evidence is insufficient!" without providing any of your own.

Why not? This is a serious question; why not? I give you counter arguments and logic. How about answering my actual arguments instead of focusing on small irrelevant details?

To be specific, I would love for you to explain this point that you handily ignored from my last post:

You have video examples (IMO cherry picked) and calculations that slightly strengthen your arguments. That is not proof or evidence in itself. If I film myself killing something without healing myself, does that prove that healing isnt important? Of course not. It just prove that I can kill that specific mob without healing. An extreme and absurd example, but that is what you are doing. You have some videos where you dont need snare and you say that torpored shamans have no use of snare. Some vidoes where the troll regen (or the FSI for that matter) makes just about no difference and you say that troll regen doesnt make any real difference.

1. Do you think that such a video would prove that healing isnt all that great?
2. Please explain how your videos work as proof and evidence and not just as examples as if I am a child.
3. Please explain how your videos are different then the healing-sucks video I talked about. (That is if you feel that they are different, if not, I would love to hear your arguments about how healing isnt important for torpor shamans.)
4. Also, since Im making a list. I would like to know why I cant claim that your evidence is insufficient based on only arguments and logic. How could you otherwise prove anything in theoretic physics? You speak like you like math. How you can you prove anything in math if arguments and logic isnt enough? Its all a chain of arguments and logic. Again please explain as if Im a child:)

DeathsSilkyMist

07-13-2020, 08:01 PM

Read my quote again. There is an "or" there. Meaning that you need two fungis (named because they are a staple of the economy) OR a couple of weeks of lucky drops of other stuff. And I am sure that you understood that even though I was talking about fungis I was discussing whether or not its possible to get 100k while still being casual, not whether or not you can get a fungi as a casual.

Im paraphrasing here but you basically say that if you can get lvl 60 and torpor you can just as well raid in the end game. Im calling bullshit. Actually getting a shaman to lvl 60 is easier then many classes, because we are good soloers and very sought after in groups.

You keep arguing things I haven't said. I didn't say leveling a Shaman to 60 is hard. I didn't say farming money is hard. I said it is time consuming for most players. That is it, and that is fact. A casual player is not playing 12 hours a day, rushing their class to 60 with a leveling team and expensive leveling tools like https://wiki.project1999.com/White_Dragon_Tooth . It is the same with farming. Unless you get SUPER lucky, a lot of farming time is either wasted (you don't get the item), or low yield (farming consistent but lower yield camps like Hill Giants). It took me over a year to level a Shaman to 60 at "casual play", and years to farm enough cash for both Torpor and Epic. Not everyone gets Fungi Tunics, Torpors, and whatever other drops raining down on them:) I did get some lucky drops that did help with the cash, but they weren't huge. 5k here, 10k there, etc.

Whether you intended it or not, your sentence includes Fungi Tunics. You said "or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual." You did not exclude Fungi Tunics specifically. This is the internet. I cannot see your face, and a lot of nuance is lost. Please be clear in your language, or prepare to be misinterpreted. Thank you for clearing it up though:)

You are nitpicking at words again. You should know by now that I am talking about different play styles and different gear. That was the whole point in that paragraph you take my quote from. That the needs of a BiS end game raiding shaman is different from a lvl 60 torpored shaman that isnt raiding. Would you say that a shaman with gear for a total of 50k with torpor operates the same as a shaman with all BiS and lots of clickies? I call bullshit again.

You are contradicting yourself here. You seem to think it is easy to get Torpor, but difficult to buy most Shaman clickies, and enough resistance gear to get the job done. If it isn't too hard for a casual to farm 100k for Torpor, it isn't too hard for a casual to farm another 100k for clickies and resist gear. You don't get to have it both ways:) A Torpor Shaman, even non-raid geared, can do most if not all Shaman solo/duo content. Raid gear makes things easier for a Shaman, but it isn't a requirement for most content. Maybe a super hard solo challenge, but those are usually for bragging rights, as opposed to efficient farming.

If you want to discuss what is best for a shaman at the end of their potential with all BiS and clickies, say so. That is a totally different discussion then just a shaman with torpor. All players CAN aquire what you call "proper" gear and strategies if they have the time (many dont), but not all will or even want to. And add to that they want to do different things with their gear and strategies.

The definition of Min/Max is being at the end of your potential. That is what we have been discussing in this thread the entire time. Which racial is best for a Shaman. That assumes Min/Max. This thread has never been about which Shaman build works best for a very specific user. That is basically what you have been talking about, which is off topic. As far as I am aware, the OP's intent for this thread was not to discuss some very specific use case a very specific user has. This is a Min/Max question for best racials.

I could easily argue an Iksar is the best race for Shaman, if a specific user's primary intent for their Shaman is crafting. Foraging would help WAY more than any other racial a Shaman gets in this case. That has nothing to do with OP's question, or the spirit of this thread.

You make yourself judge over what shamans want to kill.

I did not. I am showing common camps and zones that Shamans like to do. I did not make up these camps, other Shamans did. I only have so many hours in the day. I cannot create a video on every single thing a Shaman can possibly do. I have shown you a strategy on how to do ALL West Waste Dragons without any kind of snare. I have show you how to do MANY Chardok spawns without and kind of snare. I have show you how to do Cliff Golems without any kind of snare. You can do the math on Troll Regen with all those videos and see what a Troll would have gotten regen-wise. I have also shown the best potential FSI could give you in a specific, common Shaman encounter. I have covered quite a bit, but you think it is cherry picking because I can't record everything in Everquest in one weekend:) That is a silly argument. If you have an example you can show with snare being awesome, lets see it!

Why not? This is a serious question; why not? I give you counter arguments and logic. How about answering my actual arguments instead of focusing on small irrelevant details?

To be specific, I would love for you to explain this point that you handily ignored from my last post:

1. Do you think that such a video would prove that healing isnt all that great?
2. Please explain how your videos work as proof and evidence and not just as examples as if I am a child.
3. Please explain how your videos are different then the healing-sucks video I talked about. (That is if you feel that they are different, if not, I would love to hear your arguments about how healing isnt important for torpor shamans.)
4. Also, since Im making a list. I would like to know why I cant claim that your evidence is insufficient based on only arguments and logic. How could you otherwise prove anything in theoretic physics? You speak like you like math. How you can you prove anything in math if arguments and logic isnt enough? Its all a chain of arguments and logic. Again please explain as if Im a child:)

You made a lot of points. I will try to upack them.

1. Your healing example is irrelevant. No one is arguing anything close to this. You are using a false equivalency to try and compare 8 HP Regeneration Per Tick to... healing spells? That is a silly argument, and should be self evident. I am using healing spells heavily in every video lol.

2. The problem is you think the videos I showed are cherry picked, super specific examples. You are wrong. As I said before, the strategies I showed you can be employed in a number of encounters, in a number of zones, besides the ones shown. None of these strategies include snare, or needed Troll Regeneration. I shouldn't have to film killing every mob in Everquest for you to understand that you can use these strategies in multiple situations, in multiple zones, all without snare.

3. Please see point 1. False equivalencies are irrelevant.

4. Everquest is not Theoretical physics. You can document how the game works very effectively. The only thing I can't say with 100% certainty is how often FSI blocks a stun. I would need access to the programming logic to determine that. But I can give you the best potential outcome for FSI, compared to the best potential outcome of Troll Regeneration and Snare. That is what I am doing.

If it is SO easy to prove how much better Trolls are, just make some videos yourself, so we can discuss it. I would love to see your crazy Troll shenanigans!

Bardp1999

07-13-2020, 10:37 PM

I have a barb shaman and I look far better than any ogre or troll.

Does anything else matter?

no - you are playing correctly

Berendar

07-14-2020, 03:24 AM

I got the snare necklace on Blue a couple of years ago and unless it has changed since then, it was almost worthless. It took ages to cast and lasted a couple of ticks.

People also always discount the quality of life thing with FSI. I always noticed getting constantly stunned on my Troll and Barbarian in just day to day gameplay after playing a Ogre to the point where it became annoying. I always tank mobs though as not a fan of root/rotting if I can avoid it.

DMN

07-14-2020, 07:44 AM

I got the snare necklace on Blue a couple of years ago and unless it has changed since then, it was almost worthless. It took ages to cast and lasted a couple of ticks.

Snare can save a ton of mana both grouping and soloing at high levels, that alone makes it valuable. There are a couple other tricks you can pull off with it, nothing major or anything but certainly useful if the situation arises.

People also always discount the quality of life thing with FSI. I always noticed getting constantly stunned on my Troll and Barbarian in just day to day gameplay after playing a Ogre to the point where it became annoying. I always tank mobs though as not a fan of root/rotting if I can avoid it.

Ahh, that's nice. I find people who don't know what they are talking about annoying.

kjs86z

07-14-2020, 09:30 AM

Don't mind DMN. He's incredibly obtuse.

Crede

07-14-2020, 12:52 PM

People also always discount the quality of life thing with FSI. I always noticed getting constantly stunned on my Troll and Barbarian in just day to day gameplay after playing a Ogre to the point where it became annoying. I always tank mobs though as not a fan of root/rotting if I can avoid it.

This is exactly how I summed up FSI many pages ago in this thread. The main benefit for shaman FSI is not having to deal with the annoyance of being stunned. Whether or not it will actually save your life And improve your gameplay is highly debatable, whereas the regen is always there Working for you the second you dip below 100% hp. The benefit of snare Neck vs FSI is a toss up. Regen gives the min max edge to trolls.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 12:59 PM

This is exactly how I summed up FSI many pages ago in this thread. The main benefit for shaman FSI is not having to deal with the annoyance of being stunned. Whether or not it will actually save your life And improve your gameplay is highly debatable, whereas the regen is always there Working for you the second you dip below 100% hp. The benefit of snare Neck vs FSI is a toss up. Regen gives the min max edge to trolls.

Both FSI and Regeneration are quantifiable. Here is a video showing me killing Hechaeva in WW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU

As I posted in the description:

1:47 - Bash happens in-between spell casts. Saves 1.5 seconds of stun time.
5:25 - Bash happens during Curse of The Spirits casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 9 seconds (1.5 from stun and the 7 or so seconds from the spent cast time).
5:55 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Save 6 seconds (1.5 from stun and 4.5 or so seconds from the spent cast time).
6:28 - Bash happens in-between spell casts. Saves 1.5 seconds of stun time.
6:57 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 6 seconds (1.5 from stun and 4.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
7:30 - Bash happens during Cannibalize casting half way. Gets interrupted. Saves 0.25 seconds (1.25 lost from interruption, 1.5 gained from stun time).
8:00 - Bash happens during Cannibalize at the end of the cast. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 4 seconds (1.5 from stun and 2.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
9:03 - Bash happens during Cannibalize casting half way. Gets interrupted. Saves 0.25 seconds (1.25 lost from interruption, 1.5 gained from stun time).
9:35 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 7 seconds (1.5 from stun and 5.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
10:06 - Bash happens during Winters Roar at the end of the cast. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 8 seconds (1.5 from stun and 6.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
11:09 - Bash happens in between casting. Saves 1.5 seconds.
12:43 - Bash happens near the beginning of Winters Roar. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 3 seconds (1.5 from stun and 1.5 or so seconds into the cast time).

Total time saved: Up to 48 seconds. There is no way to know which bashes would have been stuns.

With a video time of 22 minutes from the start of the encounter to finishing the encounter and getting back to 100%, a Troll would have regenerated 1760 HP more than me in that fight. You can see I never got below 10% health. Troll Regeneration would not have done anything to quicken the fight, or save my life. Trolls saved 1.5 Torpors worth of health. Since it did not save my life, the only thing Troll Regeneration would have done is save 48 seconds of healing at the end of the fight. Then you would be at 100% HP, and not regenerating.

FSI quickened the fight up to 48 seconds, depending on which bashes would have been stuns. FSI gave me benefits during the fight, where Troll Regeneration would only give me benefits after the fight.

DMN

07-14-2020, 01:15 PM

Both FSI and Regeneration are quantifiable... There is no way to know which bashes would have been stuns.

Hrrrmmmm. And if you would have fought that fight and no bashes even landed at all. Your quantifiable analysis of FSI would be?

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 01:16 PM

Hrrrmmmm. And if you would have fought that fight and no bashes landed atall on you ever. Your quantifiable opinion of the results would be?

I never said it wasn't variable. I am giving an example. Let's say that situation happened in my video. Trolls would have still only saved 48 seconds at the end of the fight:)

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 01:33 PM

Just because I do not know the exact percent chance of FSI triggering, doesn't mean I can't show exactly how much time you could have saved. That is quantifiable. Even if the Server Dev's gave us the code, so we could see the percentage, it is possible FSI would trigger 0 times if you are unlucky. It could also trigger 100% of the time if you are lucky:) The only thing we can't say for sure is "FSI triggers 30% of the time, so you would have saved 30% of 48 seconds on average". Since we do not know the percentage, we can only give the best case scenario.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 01:49 PM

I made a video showing how you don't really need snare to get down to the entrance of Crypt in Seb. Having high resistances and using Line of Sight is more than good enough to avoid most spells from these Frogs in Seb. It isn't really necessary to snare a caster to prevent them from casting. If you watch the video, most of the frogs are out of mana by the time they die anyway. There are some decently sized runways as well if you really want to do it, without snare.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kYEDUOoKU4

Someone previously posted that a Krup pather by beetles could Gate back to Guardians. That pather stops at the entrance to Crypt, so you can easily kill it at spawn point if it gates.

Crede

07-14-2020, 02:31 PM

I never said it wasn't variable. I am giving an example. Let's say that situation happened in my video. Trolls would have still only saved 48 seconds at the end of the fight:)

The value of FSI still remains highly situational depending on the fight. For instance if you’re soloing dartain the lost in the hole, he sprints away at 20%. If you miss one root, you’re probably dead. I’d rather have Snare necklace all day while chain rooting until snare really kicks in for lower health.

As I said FSI vs snare necklace is a toss up, really depends on the fight in question. But regen is constant and thus makes trolls superior.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 02:36 PM

The value of FSI still remains highly situational depending on the fight. For instance if you’re soloing dartain the lost in the hole, he sprints away at 20%. If you miss one root, you’re probably dead. I’d rather have Snare necklace all day while chain rooting until snare really kicks in for lower health.

As I said FSI vs snare necklace is a toss up, really depends on the fight in question. But regen is constant and thus makes trolls superior.

Snare neck cast time is twice as long as your roots, so you really shouldn't be using Snare Neck in this specific situation:) Root and Snare have the same resist chance. You are correct Troll Regeneration is constant. That doesn't make it superior. Constant != Superior.

Troll Regeneration gives you 4800 HP per hour standing. That's it. Over an entire hour, you get 4 Torpors worth of HP max, assuming you are always under 100% health, which simply isn't the case on a Torpor Shaman. It is only 3 Torpors per hour if you time your Torpor with the server tick, so you get 1500 HP instead of 1200 HP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc

It takes less than 4 minutes to get back to full health with Torpor, and then you aren't regenerating.

Crede

07-14-2020, 02:49 PM

Snare neck cast time is twice as long as your roots, so you really shouldn't be using Snare Neck in this specific situation:) Root and Snare have the same resist chance. You are correct Troll Regeneration is constant. That doesn't make it superior. Constant != Superior.

Troll Regeneration gives you 4800 HP per hour standing. That's it. Over an entire hour, you get 4 Torpors worth of HP max, assuming you are always under 100% health, which simply isn't the case on a Torpor Shaman. It is only 3 Torpors per hour if you time your Torpor with the server tick, so you get 1500 HP instead of 1200 HP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc

It takes less than 4 minutes to get back to full health with Torpor, and then you aren't regenerating.

Root and snare stack, and resist chance has nothing to do with this. Being able to have a fixed duration snare while root Isn’t fixed is huge on a fight like this which I’m assuming you haven’t done.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 02:51 PM

Root and snare stack, and resist chance has nothing to do with this. Being able to have a fixed duration snare while root Isn’t fixed is huge on a fight like this which I’m assuming you haven’t done.

I understand they stack. Your scenario is "mob sprints at 20%, and you need to stop the mob before it agros adds".

If you cast https://wiki.project1999.com/Root twice, it takes a total of 8.5 seconds. If you cast snare neck twice, that is 12 seconds. If you cast root and then snare neck, that is 10 seconds. If you need to stop a mob ASAP, 2x roots is better than any other situation with Snare Neck:)

The only situation in which Snare Neck would help here is if you are 100% out of mana.

Crede

07-14-2020, 02:56 PM

I understand they stack. Your scenario is "mob sprints at 20%, and you need to stop it before it agro's adds".

If you cast https://wiki.project1999.com/Root twice, it takes a total of 8.5 seconds. If you cast snare neck twice, that is 12 seconds. If you cast root and then snare neck, that is 10 seconds. If you need to stop a mob ASAP, 2x roots is better than any other situation with Snare Neck:)

The only situation in which Snare Neck would help here is if you are 100% out of mana.

It’s not about the root time. It’s about how far away he gets away from you before you can cast root again. He could either lose sight due to the amount of corners involved which is a wipe for you or Could just get too close to adds. Snare mitigates this chance. Not sure why you’re debating on a fight you haven’t done. Simply chain rooting is not always enough.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 02:57 PM

It’s not about the root time. It’s about how far away he gets away from you before you can cast root again. He could either lose sight due to the amount of corners involved which is a wipe for you or Could just get too close to adds. Snare mitigates this chance. Not sure why you’re debating on a fight you haven’t done. Simply chain rooting is not always enough.

I understand that. Would you agree a mob runs LESS distance in 8.5 seconds, as opposed to 10.25 or 12 seconds?:) That is why 2x roots is better. The faster cast time on root means the mob has ran less time before they stop. The 8.5 seconds includes the recast time. Root has a 2 second cast time, and a 2.25 second recast time.

Crede

07-14-2020, 03:02 PM

I understand that. Would you agree a mob runs LESS distance in 8 seconds, as opposed to 10 or 12.5 seconds?:) That is why 2x roots is better. The faster cast time on root means the mob has ran less time before they stop.

Having snare land before the mob flees And before your chain rooting starts means the mob will be closer for chain rooting and preventing wipes. Not sure what you’re missing here.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 03:04 PM

Having snare land before the mob flees And before your chain rooting starts means the mob will be closer for chain rooting and preventing wipes. Not sure what you’re missing here.

It's easy. Having root on the mob before it flees also prevents the mob from running:) If the mob has root on at 20%, it has moved 0 inches in any direction. If root wears off, you can cast your root spell in 2 seconds, as opposed to 6 seconds. That means the mob has ran 4 seconds less than it would have if you tried to snare it while it was running away.

Crede

07-14-2020, 03:13 PM

It's easy. Having root on the mob before it flees also prevents the mob from running:) If the mob has root on at 20%, it has moved 0 inches in any direction. If root wears off, you can cast your root spell in 2 seconds, as opposed to 6 seconds. That means the mob has ran 4 seconds less than it would have if you tried to snare it while it was running away.

You’re not snaring it when it’s running away. You’re snaring it before it runs. So you have a better chance of chain rooting it before it runs out of sight or gets too close to mobs. Every root break is a better scenario with snare. FSI would have done nothing here.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 03:33 PM

You’re not snaring it when it’s running away. You’re snaring it before it runs. So you have a better chance of chain rooting it before it runs out of sight or gets too close to mobs. Every root break is a better scenario with snare. FSI would have done nothing here.

I understand that lol. And I am not arguing that FSI helps here.

The problem is your scenario seems to assume root is breaking left and right while the mob is under 20%. This is why you want to stack snare and root, because you have snare on for when root wears off.

The problem with this idea is if a mob has a super high resistance rate, which is leading to constant root breaks, then the mob is also going to be resisting your 6 second snare casting quite often. So you will have quite a bit of non overlap of root and snare in this scenario. This is especially true due to Clinging Darkness's short duration, and the fact that you lose 1 tick of Clinging Darkness because it takes 1 tick to cast it again, to keep it on.

If the mob has normal resistances, then root break is only happening like 2-3 times max before the mob dies. This means that the mob isn't running very far anyway, because root only takes 2 seconds to cast. 1.75 seconds if you are using immobilize.

Crede

07-14-2020, 04:44 PM

I understand that lol. And I am not arguing that FSI helps here.

The problem is your scenario seems to assume root is breaking left and right while the mob is under 20%. This is why you want to stack snare and root, because you have snare on for when root wears off.

The problem with this idea is if a mob has a super high resistance rate, which is leading to constant root breaks, then the mob is also going to be resisting your 6 second snare casting quite often. So you will have quite a bit of non overlap of root and snare in this scenario. This is especially true due to Clinging Darkness's short duration, and the fact that you lose 1 tick of Clinging Darkness because it takes 1 tick to cast it again, to keep it on.

If the mob has normal resistances, then root break is only happening like 2-3 times max before the mob dies. This means that the mob isn't running very far anyway, because root only takes 2 seconds to cast. 1.75 seconds if you are using immobilize.

Those 2 seconds with the mob running at full flee speed vs a clinging darkness flee speed could be too long depending on where/how you choose to engage a mob like this. But having it snared beforehand, even if it's a weak snare, could easily give you the edge between life & death, similar to how FSI could do in other situations, which is why I consider FSI & snare both highly situational and pretty equal in terms of potential survival. There are certain fights where every inch matters, and this is where any form of snare shines.

The fact that you consider FSI(potential lifesaver in oh shit moments) superior to both Snare neck(potential lifesaver in oh shit moments) & constant regen is flawed logic.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 04:59 PM

Those 2 seconds with the mob running at full flee speed vs a clinging darkness flee speed could be too long depending on where/how you choose to engage a mob like this. But having it snared beforehand, even if it's a weak snare, could easily give you the edge between life & death, similar to how FSI could do in other situations, which is why I consider FSI & snare both highly situational and pretty equal in terms of potential survival. There are certain fights where every inch matters, and this is where any form of snare shines.

The fact that you consider FSI(potential lifesaver in oh shit moments) superior to both Snare neck(potential lifesaver in oh shit moments) & constant regen is flawed logic.

I never claimed Snare Neck could never save you in oh shit moments. I was responding to your specific scenario. Not sure where you read otherwise.

I think you are missing my point:) If you can consistently land a root (or a snare, since they have the same resistance check), then you will NOT be getting a lot of root breaks most of the time, unless you get one of those super rare unlucky moments. If you don't get a lot of root breaks (the normal case), then the mob really isn't going to go very far. At 20% life, they are already low life snared.

I have done a lot of root rotting in a lot of tight places, and it is extremely rare to run into this specific situation. Usually the only time where I lose control of a running mob is when multiple mobs are involved. In this situation, it is almost impossible to keep Snare Neck on 2+ mobs, due to Snare Neck's 6 tick duration time, and 1 tick cast time.

Can Snare Neck save you? Of course it can, but I have run into this specific scenario far less than cases where FSI could have saved me.

That is why FSI is superior. It has more use cases than the very specific scenario you are using Snare Neck for here.

Troll Regeneration is just not very good with Torpor, as I have shown multiple times with the math. It is consistently useless most of the time. Same with FSI, same with Snare Neck. But FSI is more useful with Torpor than both Troll Regeneration and Snare Neck combined.

On top of that, if you do run into an "oh shit" scenario, you can easily get https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn . It has a better snare, a longer duration, and a shorter casting time. Your mob, https://wiki.project1999.com/Dartain_the_Lost , is on a 36 hour respawn timer. That means you need to get a new ball of yarn once every 4 kills, or 144 hours.

EDIT: Oh, and https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn has an instant cast time, so if shit really hits the fan, you have this as a backup for an instant cast. With 10 charges, you should be good for a while on a mob with a 36 hour respawn timer:)

Crede

07-14-2020, 07:13 PM

I never claimed Snare Neck could never save you in oh shit moments. I was responding to your specific scenario. Not sure where you read otherwise.

I think you are missing my point:) If you can consistently land a root (or a snare, since they have the same resistance check), then you will NOT be getting a lot of root breaks most of the time, unless you get one of those super rare unlucky moments. If you don't get a lot of root breaks (the normal case), then the mob really isn't going to go very far. At 20% life, they are already low life snared.

I have done a lot of root rotting in a lot of tight places, and it is extremely rare to run into this specific situation. Usually the only time where I lose control of a running mob is when multiple mobs are involved. In this situation, it is almost impossible to keep Snare Neck on 2+ mobs, due to Snare Neck's 6 tick duration time, and 1 tick cast time.

Can Snare Neck save you? Of course it can, but I have run into this specific scenario far less than cases where FSI could have saved me.

That is why FSI is superior. It has more use cases than the very specific scenario you are using Snare Neck for here.

Troll Regeneration is just not very good with Torpor, as I have shown multiple times with the math. It is consistently useless most of the time. Same with FSI, same with Snare Neck. But FSI is more useful with Torpor than both Troll Regeneration and Snare Neck combined.

On top of that, if you do run into an "oh shit" scenario, you can easily get https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn . It has a better snare, a longer duration, and a shorter casting time. Your mob, https://wiki.project1999.com/Dartain_the_Lost , is on a 36 hour respawn timer. That means you need to get a new ball of yarn once every 4 kills, or 144 hours.

EDIT: Oh, and https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn has an instant cast time, so if shit really hits the fan, you have this as a backup for an instant cast. With 10 charges, you should be good for a while on a mob with a 36 hour respawn timer:)

You’re trying to math out FSI which only relates to your own personal experiences. Likewise, snare only relates to ones own personal experiences. There are shamans out there who have killed every mob you have, without having FSI, and without ever dying because they didn’t have it.

Regen is the only thing that can accurately be measured, no matter how little the benefit is, which makes trolls superior to ogres for shamans.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 07:32 PM

You’re trying to math out FSI which only relates to your own personal experiences. Likewise, snare only relates to ones own personal experiences. There are shamans out there who have killed every mob you have, without having FSI, and without ever dying because they didn’t have it.

Regen is the only thing that can accurately be measured, no matter how little the benefit is, which makes trolls superior to ogres for shamans.

This is false. I am glad you are admitting regen it is a small bonus now though:)

You can accurately math out FSI's potential savings, as I have already done. This is because you can actually see how many bashes have happened per fight. The only piece of information we are missing is the percent chance of a stun happening on a hit. Even without that, you can see the potential savings of FSI. You just can't place a definitive average on it. I play an Ogre and a Troll. I know FSI works, because I have been stunned before on my Troll, and stuns happen fairly often. There is no denying FSI is working. I don't think anyone out there is going to say FSI isn't working.

You can also accurately math out how often root breaks occur on a monster. Using that math, you can determine how necessary a snare is for that specific encounter. Maybe I will do another video on this soon. I haven't seen any situation where Clinging Darkness would land more often than a root. Both snare and root operate on the same resistance, and have the same resistance check value. If root only lands 25% of the time on a mob, snare will also only land 25% of the time. It is very simple. This is a problem for Snare Neck SPECIFICALLY, because it has such a short duration, and such a long casting time.

There is no denying if a Shaman uses a LONGER snare, like https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn or https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction , that would CERTAINLY work well in the situation you are describing. Even though the snare only has a 25% chance to land, once you do land it, the snare will be active for 3 minutes 54 seconds or 13 minutes 6 seconds. On top of that, these two snares would stop the mob at 20%. You wouldn't even need to chain root at that point. But both of those items can be obtained by any Shaman race, not just Trolls.

If Snare Neck was using a better snare, you would be 100% correct. But since it is using Clinging Darkness, it's utility is vastly diminished, and outshone by the items mentioned above.

Due to the rarity of encounters that honestly NEED a snare, the charge items are more than sufficient to tide over a non-Troll for those encounters.

Crede

07-14-2020, 07:47 PM

This is false. I am glad you are admitting regen it is a small bonus now though:)

You can accurately math out FSI's potential savings, as I have already done. This is because you can actually see how many bashes have happened per fight. The only piece of information we are missing is the percent chance of a stun happening on a hit. Even without that, you can see the potential savings of FSI. You just can't place a definitive average on it. I play an Ogre and a Troll. I know FSI works, because I have been stunned before on my Troll, and stuns happen fairly often. There is no denying FSI is working. I don't think anyone out there is going to say FSI isn't working.

Thank you for finally admitting FSI has a potential savings vs regen which is a guaranteed saving, no matter how small it is.

Potential savings < guaranteed savings. This is why trolls are better. And you will never convince me otherwise, nor do I believe you’ve convinced anyone else in this thread 😀

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 07:52 PM

Thank you for finally admitting FSI has a potential savings vs regen which is a guaranteed saving, no matter how small it is.

Potential savings < guaranteed savings. This is why trolls are better. And you will never convince me otherwise, nor do I believe you’ve convinced anyone else in this thread ��

What? I never said FSI was guaranteed savings:) You can read the entire thread.

The problem is you think guaranteed savings are better no matter what. That is a flaw in your thinking. It is not part of the reality of the game.

Under your logic, a Warrior's critical hits are less useful than Troll Regeneration because critical hits do not happen 100% of the time. However, I don't think any player out there would trade their ability to critical hit for 8 additional Regeneration per tick:)

That is why FSI is better. You are correct FSI is not as consistent as Troll Regeneration. But FSI has a much bigger impact when it triggers, compared to the near useless constant Troll Regeneration.

And as I have said MANY times on this thread, a Troll is the BEST Shaman race PRE-TORPOR. That is undeniable. Once you get Torpor, however, FSI becomes better.

Crede

07-14-2020, 08:09 PM

What? I never said FSI was guaranteed savings:) You can read the entire thread.

The problem is you think guaranteed savings are better no matter what. That is a flaw in your thinking, not in the reality of the game.

Under your logic, a Warrior's critical hits are less useful than Troll Regeneration because they do not happen 100% of the time. However, I don't think any player out there would trade their ability to critical hit for 8 additional Regeneration per tick:)

That is why FSI is better. You are correct FSI is not as consistent as Troll Regeneration, but it has a much bigger impact when it triggers, compared to the near useless constant Troll Regeneration.

And as I have said MANY times on this thread, a Troll is the BEST Shaman race PRE-TORPOR. That is undeniable. Once you get Torpor, however, FSI becomes better.

I've specifically stated many times that this applies to Shamans. I 100% believe that ogres make the best warriors, especially after the clicky nerf patch. FSI means less stuns and more potential aggro. FSI for a shaman is an entirely different matter, so trying to use Shaman specific logic that I presented on a different class is quite illogical. With shamans we know 3 things for sure at the highest level when it comes to Trolls vs Ogres:

1. FSI - potential to save your life in very specific scenarios & personal preference since stuns can be annoying.
2. Snare necklace - potential to save your life in very specific scenarios & personal preference since we can worry less about gate/runner potential
3. Regen - constant benefit that will result in less Torpor needed, no matter how minimal one thinks it is.

Your math isn't convincing, other than it's convincing me you're likely just annoyed by frontal stuns and are frightened by the thought of getting potentially stunned in a dire situation. I'm fine with that, but min/max is about the facts. We know what benefit regen provides once your health drops below 100%. We don't know whether or not FSI will actually do anything for us when the situation calls for it.

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 08:22 PM

I've specifically stated many times that this applies to Shamans. I 100% believe that ogres make the best warriors, especially after the clicky nerf patch. FSI means less stuns and more potential aggro. FSI for a shaman is an entirely different matter, so trying to use Shaman specific logic that I presented on a different class is quite illogical. With shamans we know 3 things for sure at the highest level when it comes to Trolls vs Ogres:

1. FSI - potential to save your life in very specific scenarios & personal preference since stuns can be annoying.
2. Snare necklace - potential to save your life in very specific scenarios & personal preference since we can worry less about gate/runner potential
3. Regen - constant benefit that will result in less Torpor needed, no matter how minimal one thinks it is.

Your math isn't convincing, other than it's convincing me you're likely just annoyed by frontal stuns and are frightened by the thought of getting potentially stunned in a dire situation. I'm fine with that, but min/max is about the facts. We know what benefit regen provides once your health drops below 100%. We don't know whether or not FSI will actually do anything for us when the situation calls for it.

I have only been talking about FSI with Shamans:) I don't know where you are reading this stuff. I am pointing out how you seem convinced that consistent bonuses are better than triggered bonuses. That is not always correct. That is why I mentioned a Warrior's critical hits. Like FSI, critical hits are a triggered bonus that don't occur 100% of the time. That doesn't automatically make it an inferior ability. There are definitely triggered bonuses out there that out-perform a constant benefit like HP regeneration.

This is ESPECIALLY true on Shamans, who can regenerate faster than any class in the game. Constant Regeneration is literally least useful on a Torpor Shaman compared to any other class in the game. Please see video proof https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc for how quickly Troll Regeneration stops working.

I never denied Snare Neck can save your life. I am simply showing you Snare Neck is more limited in it's application than FSI. On top of that, OTHER Shaman races can get snare items if they need them. This further diminishes the utility of Snare Neck, and it means Trolls aren't unique in their ability to snare. My Shaman has 2 balls of yarn right now, ready to go for that rare occasion where a snare might help.

This is why FSI is superior. It has more applications, and you CANNOT acquire it via an item. From a math perspective, Troll Regeneration just doesn't help that much on a class that can regenerate WAY faster than any other class in the game.

It is strange that you do not seem to believe my math. Do you have any other way to do the math here?:)

Crede

07-14-2020, 08:37 PM

I have only been talking about FSI with Shamans:) I don't know where you are reading this stuff. I am pointing out how you seem convinced that consistent bonuses are better than triggered bonuses. That is not always correct. That is why I mentioned a Warrior's critical hits. Like FSI, that is a triggered bonus that doesn't occur 100% of the time. That doesn't automatically make it an inferior ability. There are definitely triggered bonuses out there that out-perform a constant benefit like HP regeneration.

This is ESPECIALLY true on Shamans, who can regenerate faster than any class in the game. Constant Regeneration is literally least useful on a Torpor Shaman compared to any other class in the game. Please see video proof https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc for how quickly Troll Regeneration stops working.

I never denied Snare Neck can save your life. I am simply showing you Snare Neck is more limited in it's application than FSI. On top of that, OTHER Shaman races can get snare items if they need them. This further diminishes the utility of Snare Neck, and it means Trolls aren't unique in their ability to snare. My Shaman has 2 balls of yarn right now, ready to go for that rare occasion where a snare might help.

This is why FSI is superior. It has more applications, and you CANNOT acquire it via an item. From a math perspective, Troll Regeneration just doesn't help that much on a class that can regenerate WAY faster than any other class in the game.

It is strange that you do not seem to believe my math. Do you have any other way to do the math here?:)

Heh, doesn't matter how much Shaman's can regen already. There's no such thing as too much regen the second your health drops below 100%. Racial Regen still helps. FSI on the other hand is like rolling the dice. It's nice if you're in a life or death situation and it comes in handy, but you'll never know if it will actually help you when that time comes. Otherwise, it's just personal preference not having to deal with the annoyance of being stunned, which is a preference just like having a snare necklace instead of trying to acquire more items, which I might add that the snare spear is much much much harder to acquire than Torpor, or carry around clickies to snare.

Danth

07-14-2020, 08:42 PM

Ogre racial does nothing at all when the player isn't being attacked in melee, rendering it virtually worthless for players who mostly duo or group or raid. It's therefore very specific in its utility. Bash resistance is a nice quality of life/convenience feature to have for dedicated soloists while regeneration provides its modest benefit regardless of playstyle.

I find it amusing that pretty well everyone agrees that none of the Shaman racials are all that important. Trying to min-max Shaman racial choice is something of a fool's errand because EQ's just not tightly tuned enough for any race to have a significant advantage over the others. Pick the one that looks the best and don't fuss over it otherwise.

Danth

DeathsSilkyMist

07-14-2020, 08:48 PM

Heh, doesn't matter how much Shaman's can regen already. There's no such thing as too much regen the second your health drops below 100%. Racial Regen still helps. FSI on the other hand is like rolling the dice. It's nice if you're in a life or death situation and it comes in handy, but you'll never know if it will actually help you when that time comes. Otherwise, it's just personal preference not having to deal with the annoyance of being stunned, which is a preference just like having a snare necklace instead of trying to acquire more items, which I might add that the snare spear is much much much harder to acquire than Torpor, or carry around clickies to snare.

I have never said Regeneration doesn't help on a Shaman lol.

The question is which is better:

1. +8 HP Regeneration Per Tick on a class that can already do +332 Hp Regeneration Per Tick self buffed.
2. A triggered ability that can factually save way more HP than +8 HP Regeneration per tick.

The answer is number 2 in MOST cases. I never said all cases. When Min/Maxing, the question is which bonus is BETTER in MOST cases.

For snare, I have yet to find a camp that requires snare to consistently kill the mobs, and not get additional agros. This is for a Shaman specifically, with Shaman strategies. Chain rooting works just fine. That is why Snare Neck isn't that special. If there does exist the rare camp or two that requires a snare to win, you can use https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn , if you can't get to VP. The only way you will be able to prove Snare Neck is superior is if you can show there are a decent amount of camps out there that require a Snare Neck to consistently win. Otherwise your skill will be the deciding factor at that camp, not an item.