Please check my math on Troll vs Ogre Shaman

[Crede]

I have never said Regeneration doesn't help on a Shaman lol.

The question is which is better:

1. +8 HP Regeneration Per Tick on a class that can already do +332 Hp Regeneration Per Tick self buffed.
2. A triggered ability that can factually save way more HP than +8 HP Regeneration per tick.

The answer is number 2 in MOST cases. I never said all cases. When Min/Maxing, the question is which bonus is BETTER in MOST cases.

For snare, I have yet to find a camp that requires snare to consistently kill the mobs, and not get additional agros. This is for a Shaman specifically, with Shaman strategies. Chain rooting works just fine. That is why Snare Neck isn't that special. If there does exist the rare camp or two that requires a snare to win, you can use https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn , if you can't get to VP. The only way you will be able to prove Snare Neck is superior is if you can show there are a decent amount of camps out there that require a Snare Neck to consistently win. Otherwise your skill will be the deciding factor at that camp, not an item.

As Danth pointed out, your logic fails to account for any situation where a shaman isn't tanking. There's a hell of a lot more to the shaman class than just taking hits, which I mentioned many pages ago. You say you're talking about min/max, but you're really just talking about one specific area of shaman playstyle. So in regards to your #2, i don't know how you consider that most cases. Unless you're soloing 24/7, the math favors troll regen in most cases.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As Danth pointed out, your logic fails to account for any situation where a shaman isn't tanking. There's a hell of a lot more to the shaman class than just taking hits, which I mentioned many pages ago. You say you're talking about min/max, but you're really just talking about one specific area of shaman playstyle. So in regards to your #2, i don't know how you consider that most cases. Unless you're soloing 24/7, the math favors troll regen in most cases.

I have mentioned grouping/raiding in this thread multiple times, and I made a video!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k

This is a faux raid situation. I am buffing 10 people in a row with STA/FoS, and two Primal Avatars thrown in. I get the WHOLE thing done in 12 minutes, 45 seconds. That is starting with 100% HP/Mana, and ending with 100% HP/Mana. A Troll would have regenerated 1024 extra HP in that time. That is less than 1 Torpor's worth of health. A Troll would have saved a grand total of 24 seconds of healing, before he stopped regenerating. In raids, you spend a lot of time waiting. That 24 seconds does nothing 99% of the time.

You can easily get hit in Group/Raid situations. Slows are a high agro spell. FSI can prevent an interrupt there too, so do not think FSI turns off in a Group or a Raid.

In a raid situation, if an actual mob focuses on you for more than 18 seconds, you are dead anyway. Shamans just don't mitigate damage well in Raid situations. Troll Regeneration will not save you from the focused fury of a serious mob.

In a group situation, you are rarely spending more mana in a short period of time than the video above. This is because a group (3+ people) has WAY faster DPS, shared HP pools, shared Mana pools, and shared responsibilities.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is the irony when people want to argue "Ogre Shaman is Min/Max for soloing/duoing, Troll Shaman is Min/Max for raiding".

If you really want to claim ANY damage mitigation is superior to FSI in a raid situation, then Trolls lose the Min/Max debate for raids anyway. JBB, Snare Neck, Jaundiced Armor, Slam, and Barbarian Spiritist Hammer have no use in raids. This means IKSARS are the best raiding Shaman. They have regeneration, an AC bonus, better default resistances than a Troll, AND a smaller default body build (This is useful when corpse recovery is done in a dangerous area, where a tall race could agro stuff). They can also forage, which means they need to buy/summon food and drink less in poop sock situations. Starting stats on a Shaman are not relevant since you can already buff your stats to a large degree.

So I wouldn't be too hasty to try and use this logic to prove Trolls are superior in raiding situations:)

[Jimjam]

The most important thing is having the most recognisable silhouette possible.

Barbarian best raid shaman as doesn’t look like shadowknight and few wars are barbarian.

Under geared melee need to berate you for not loading avatar or having a pe hammer in the smallest time possible. Also, to a lesser degree it helps for buff requests and staying in torpor range.

[kjs86z]

rofl all this paper napkin math

FSI might save you on a tough string of RNG, mistakes, etc.

Regen is not going to save you when things go tits up.

This only matters when soloing difficult stuff. Any other situation in game is trivial.

Troll is good for people not pushing the upper limits of their character but want to min/max (lol). Barb looks cool. Iksar has stuff.

Just stop it already...you're scaring the children.

[DMN]

rofl all this paper napkin math

FSI might save you on a tough string of RNG, mistakes, etc.

Regen is not going to save you when things go tits up.

This only matters when soloing difficult stuff. Any other situation in game is trivial.

Troll is good for people not pushing the upper limits of their character but want to min/max (lol). Barb looks cool. Iksar has stuff.

Just stop it already...you're scaring the children.

Eh, they both could save you if the situation presents itself. it's just incredibly unlikely either of them will actually do so in typical shaman solo play.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

rofl all this paper napkin math

FSI might save you on a tough string of RNG, mistakes, etc.

Regen is not going to save you when things go tits up.

This only matters when soloing difficult stuff. Any other situation in game is trivial.

Troll is good for people not pushing the upper limits of their character but want to min/max (lol). Barb looks cool. Iksar has stuff.

Just stop it already...you're scaring the children.

This is not paper napkin math:) This is the actual math of the game lol. Not sure why people are having such a hard time with this.

Of course all racials are trivial on Torpor Shamans. But that doesn't mean it isn't good to know which racial is the best for people who want to Min/Max.

If you don't care about that, then it doesn't matter to you:) Some players like Min/Maxing, some players don't. There is nothing wrong with having this discussion between people who want to know which racial is the best.

[Crede]

While I still believe troll is the best min max shaman race, I’d definitely go iksar if I rolled another one due to not being a fatty and to robequest. And still getting the best shaman trait - regen

[DeathsSilkyMist]

While I still believe troll is the best min max shaman race, I’d definitely go iksar if I rolled another one due to not being a fatty and to robequest. And still getting the best shaman trait - regen

You are completely free to believe Trolls are the best for you. Just please don't say something is factually the best when it isn't. The math is against Troll Regeneration for Torpor Shamans. I am not saying Regeneration isn't helpful, or good. It just isn't the best compared to FSI, and it is easy to prove from a math perspective and a real situation perspective. I have videos! If you prefer regeneration, that is great! More power to you. That doesn't mean it is better factually.

As I have said many times already, Trolls ARE the best racial Pre-Torpor. If you are making a 52 Shaman for Naggy/Vox, Troll is the best race.

If you are making a guild bot, instead of a character you want to play yourself, Barbarian is the best race, due to it being the fastest race to level up.

If for some reason you are making a 60 Torpor Shaman ONLY for raiding, and you will never (or rarely) solo or group, Iksar is the best race. The clickies they lose out on are irrelevant for raiding, they have the best total damage mitigation from racials, they have the ability to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Stone_of_Morid (best Fire and Cold resistance item for ranged slot. Only Warder Resistance Stones beat the individual resistances), and they have the smallest default character model size.

There are situations in which a specific race is better. But if you want to create a Min/Max level 60 Torpor Shaman with good gear that solos, groups, and raids, Ogres are the best due to FSI. This is why I say Ogres are generally the best Shaman race for Min/Max. I am fairly confident this is the normal situation for people creating Shamans. I haven't heard of a lot of people that don't play Shamans because of their powerful soloing abilities, for example.

[kjs86z]

This is not paper napkin math:) This is the actual math of the game lol. Not sure why people are having such a hard time with this.

Of course all racials are trivial on Torpor Shamans. But that doesn't mean it isn't good to know which racial is the best for people who want to Min/Max.

If you don't care about that, then it doesn't matter to you:) Some players like Min/Maxing, some players don't. There is nothing wrong with having this discussion between people who want to know which racial is the best.

I just helped your argument without any need to use numbers be it paper napkin or otherwise.

No one cares about guild bot leveling, vox alts, etc. Those answers are obvious. The only aspect of this discussion that matters is what is best when you're pushing your character to its limit by soloing difficult targets....be it for the pure challenge or for plat.

FSI is the only racial that has a chance of saving you if things go tits up. Period.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I just helped your argument without any need to use numbers be it paper napkin or otherwise.

FSI is the only racial that has a chance of saving you if things go tits up. Period.

Ah, thanks for the clarification, and the support:D

[kjs86z]

Ah, thanks for the clarification, and the support:D

But barb is still master race b/c fashion > all. :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But barb is still master race b/c fashion > all. :)

Fashion Quest is awesome. I have certainly been a victim of preferring fashion over function lol.

From my own personal taste: Barbarian eye patch head and polar bear hat are one of the best head fashion combinations in the game. Polar bear form is also the best bear form. But I personally think the barbarian bodies, animations, low poly kilts, and armor textures are generally ugly. That is why I don't like them too much from a Fashion Quest perspective.

I personally think Male Trolls are the best overall race Fashion Quest wise for Shamans. For some weird reason, they made the Male Troll animations better than any other race lol. Not sure why it turned out that way. I really like a lot of their armor textures too, and their custom hat.

But that is just me. I like the look of the big races, both Ogres and Trolls. Fashion Quest is subjective, and that is how it should be!

[Snaggles]

The overwhelming opinion is that all racials are of little functional advantage with a 60 shaman. Being large and the xp penalty are by far the most noticeable as is not being able to use a JBB if iksar. There are other nuances such as the symbol quest, robes, or the Barb hammer but again they won’t noticeably change the game.

As a buff bot you say the regen is pointless but also argue that FSI is much better. I guess in a game of theoretical fractions but how do you measure this? If a sham has been bash-killed before while slowing or gating they might have that burned into their memory. In the contrary a non-regen player rarely looks at the green bar and screams to the heavens why it’s a bit lower than it could be.

There are functional differences (constant) and there are theoretical differences (variable). Technically regen is a constant but even as a fan of it I’d agree it’s rarely going to make a difference. Since much of this game is running and no shamans have safe fall it does permit you to hoof around and keep the health bar higher. That isn’t a raid benefit but it’s a perk.

The one thing P99 proves is the design of this game allows pedantic squabbles over min-maxing race where as the failure and success of an encounter is down to decisions, player skill/gear, and RNG rolls. 27 pages to determine if trolls or ogres are better? Lol, it really is just like 1999. I wish the gas was $1/gallon...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The overwhelming opinion is that all racials are of little functional advantage with a 60 shaman. Being large and the xp penalty are by far the most noticeable as is not being able to use a JBB if iksar. There are other nuances such as the symbol quest, robes, or the Barb hammer but again they won’t noticeably change the game.

As a buff bot you say the regen is pointless but also argue that FSI is much better. I guess in a game of theoretical fractions but how do you measure this? If a sham has been bash-killed before while slowing or gating they might have that burned into their memory. In the contrary a non-regen player rarely looks at the green bar and screams to the heavens why it’s a bit lower than it could be.

There are functional differences (constant) and there are theoretical differences (variable). Technically regen is a constant but even as a fan of it I’d agree it’s rarely going to make a difference. Since much of this game is running and no shamans have safe fall it does permit you to hoof around and keep the health bar higher. That isn’t a raid benefit but it’s a perk.

The one thing P99 proves is the design of this game allows pedantic squabbles over min-maxing race where as the failure and success of an encounter is down to decisions, player skill/gear, and RNG rolls. 27 pages to determine if trolls or ogres are better? Lol, it really is just like 1999. I wish the gas was $1/gallon...

Being large is "largely" irrelevant on a Shaman, since they can shrink. The only time it is actually a problem is when you are getting resurrected from a separate zone, into a dangerous raid area where Line of Sight can agro a mob. If you are getting resurrected in the same zone, you can pre-shrink before resurrection, and it will stick. But skilled raids always get around this problem, and big races aren't banned in raids lol. XP penalties are also largely irrelevant, since XP is only a buffer at level 60. Shamans can solo extremely well, and Shamans can level quickly at level 60. The experience flies on my 60 Shaman.

As a "Buff Bot", you only save about 1 Torpor per buff session max with Regeneration. I have a video, and you can do the math yourself lol. Regeneration doesn't work in some magical way. It is constant, and easy to calculate. Saving 1 Torpor (24 seconds) while buffing is irrelevant in a raid 99% of the time. Shamans do other things besides "Buff Boting" in raids. Shamans do a lot of Slowing in raids, and that generates a ton of agro. FSI can help a raid in those situations.

Getting a mob slowed ASAP is critical, and a Slow interrupt can really hurt a raid's chances. As I said before, Shamans don't mitigate damage very well in Raids, so a Shaman cannot sustainably tank a raid mob for more than a minute. They will die. FSI is better here, since you have a greater chance to land a Slow, and you are going to die anyway if someone doesn't help you. Regeneration doesn't really matter here. A Troll would get 80 HP total before they bit the dust. Of course there is a very small percent chance that 80HP could save you one more hit, but I just haven't seen a lot of those situations in raids. Raid mobs just hit too hard and too fast for those situations to crop up a lot. Regeneration is better in AoE fights, but most AoE fights are either fast (because everyone is getting AoE'd and you can't avoid it, either the raid wipes you you win), or you can avoid the AoE with line of sight. In a fast fight, you don't get a lot of regeneration. In a fight where you can avoid the AoE, skill will save you, not regeneration. In the rare fights where they are long AND you can't avoid AoE, I will give Trolls the win here. Damage mitigation could save you one extra AoE, which means you have more time to Torpor back up from a near death experience. But that is one of the rarer raid situations to be honest.

EDIT: FSI also helps when using https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh in raids. No stuns means more swings, means more chances to proc slow:)

I don't understand how people think FSI is somehow less quantifiable/reliable than any other triggered ability. Everquest is MOSTLY a percentages game. All auto-attacking and auto attacking abilities that aren't guaranteed to land are just percentage based. Any spell casting that requires a resistance check is just percentage based. Fizzling is just percentage based. FSI is also just percentage based lol. The only thing we don't know about FSI is the exact percent chance for stuns to occur. But you COULD figure that out with enough data. Take a non-Ogre, and fight 500 battles. You could see the average stuns per bashes that hit, and come up with a rough percentage. This would be the same if the Dev's were trolls and hid the Damage/Delay on weapons. You could still figure out which weapons had the best ratio with this method, it would just take a lot longer due to how much parsing you would have to do.

[Snaggles]

To my knowledge no high end guild in EQ has ever required ogre shams.

Even the king of neckbeard Valhalla, Furor Planedefiler, was a human warrior.

I’m not saying it’s not a possible “advantage” if all the stars were misaligned at once. I’m just saying you certainly looking at it as optimistically as possible given the bias you have for the race.

To each his/her own. Unless we can remember a thousand non-FSI deaths having a toon look like what we want it to look like is the most important thing. I’ve kicked myself many times for making a troll over a Barb, never an ogre once.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To my knowledge no high end guild in EQ has ever required ogre shams.

Even the king of neckbeard Valhalla, Furor Planedefiler, was a human warrior.

I’m not saying it’s not a possible “advantage” if all the stars were misaligned at once. I’m just saying you certainly looking at it as optimistically as possible given the bias you have for the race.

To each his/her own. Unless we can remember a thousand non-FSI deaths having a toon look like what we want it to look like is the most important thing. I’ve kicked myself many times for making a troll over a Barb, never an ogre once.

You are correct no guild requires Ogres. No guild has required Iksars or Trolls either:) There is no "stars aligned" situation here. If you are in melee combat, FSI works like any other combat skill. It is a "defensive skill" (it can only trigger when you are hit), and it works exactly the same as dodge/parry/riposte. The only difference is it only triggers on bashes/kicks that stun, so the percent chance of it occurring is arguably lower. But just like dodge/parry/riposte, you could easily figure out how often it triggers on average, if you parsed enough data points to create an average. It would be easier if the Dev's just gave us the percentage, but that will not happen:)

[Snaggles]

Ya maybe they are too busy trying to fix the free game and restore corpses/items to us silly players.

How many bashes does it take to get a non-FSI death and raid wipe, Mr Owl?
The world will never know.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ya maybe they are too busy trying to fix the free game and restore corpses/items to us silly players.

How many bashes does it take to get a non-FSI death and raid wipe, Mr Owl?
The world will never know.

I am not saying the Dev's should give us the percentage, or that they are doing a bad job:)

You are incorrect, you can quantify this with percentages. If FSI triggers 10% of the time on average, that means an Ogre has a 10% greater chance to land a slow than a non-Ogre in melee combat. It is quite simple. That doesn't mean it will always happen, but you can say this will happen on average. It is the same thing with weapon ratios. Just because a 0.7 ratio weapon can out-damage a 0.9 ratio weapon on rare occasions due to luck does not mean we "cannot know" the 0.9 ratio weapon is better on average.

[Snaggles]

I am not saying the Dev's should give us the percentage, or that they are doing a bad job:)

You are incorrect, you can quantify this with percentages. If FSI triggers 10% of the time on average, that means an Ogre has a 10% greater chance to land a slow than a non-Ogre in melee combat. It is quite simple. That doesn't mean it will always happen, but you can say this will happen on average. It is the same thing with weapon ratios. Just because a 0.7 ratio weapon can out-damage a 0.9 ratio weapon on rare occasions due to luck does not mean we "cannot know" the 0.9 ratio weapon is better on average.

This is great information for those single shaman raids.

Not gonna argue with you any further. Clearly ogres are the best. Any other choice is just a stun-lock death infinity loop.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is great information for those single shaman raids.

Not gonna argue with you any further. Clearly ogres are the best. Any other choice is just a stun-lock death infinity loop.

I am just trying to help, and give people the correct information. There are raids where multiple Shamans have to slow multiple mobs simultaneously. Vulak guards are a great example. If you need to FTE Vulak with 2+ guards still up, you need slow teams on each Guard AND Vulak. The faster you can land slows, the better chance your raid has of winning the fight. This is why raid shamans use https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh , so they can cast slow AND have a chance at procing a slow simultaneously. Not only does FSI help with the casting Slows, but it helps with the slow procs as well. Every stun avoided is 1.5 more seconds of weapon proc potential, or possibly 1 less slow interrupted.

[busted]

Side question:

When using https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh in raid, do you dex + slow yourself for higher chance of weapon proc before engage?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Side question:

When using https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh in raid, do you dex + slow yourself for higher chance of weapon proc before engage?

Yes, that does help with proc rate.

[kjs86z]

This is great information for those single shaman raids.

Not gonna argue with you any further. Clearly ogres are the best. Any other choice is just a stun-lock death infinity loop.

No one said FSI matters in raids.

The only scenario where a racial might even come close to mattering is soloing big target mobs that summon (or I suppose duoing stuff like PoM puppets where the shaman winds up tanking). The best choice for that is Ogre.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No one said FSI matters in raids.

The only scenario where a racial might even come close to mattering is soloing big target mobs that summon (or I suppose duoing stuff like PoM puppets where the shaman winds up tanking). The best choice for that is Ogre.

FSI can help in raids, as I mentioned above. When slowing mobs you can get agro, so FSI could trigger and prevent an interrupt. It also means you are not getting stunned while swinging https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh . That being said, if you have the full focus of a raid mob for a minute, you are dead anyway. So I agree it is a much lower chance, and the scenario is less common. But it can help.

Just like FSI, regeneration won't help most of the time in raids. The time saved in buff sessions from regeneration is negligible. If you buff 20 people in a row as a Troll, you are saving 2 Torpors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k . I don't think I have ever been in a situation where I buffed 20 people in a row, and then we immediately went into a tough fight less than a minute later. If you get focused by a mob, the damage mitigation from regeneration won't do anything, due to how hard and how fast mobs hit. Regeneration works a bit better in AoE situations, but it really depends on the fight to determine if it matters at all.

[Naethyn]

Tunare Ogre Wall

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Tunare Ogre Wall

That is the best Ogre wall! And good point:D

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I made a new video. I am going to make a series on how Clinging Darkness works with a Torpor Shaman. Took a little longer since it took me a while to obtain a Scepter of the Forlorn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYSN1sN9z8

This video is an example of just how bad the snare is, especially on high HP mobs. Hechaeva will run the full length of the snare, and still not stop. By the time I need to cast it again, she is already out of LoS due to her positioning in the water. I understand the strategy of rooting first, and then snaring to take less damage. This first video is to specifically show that the snare didn't slow her much at 20%, and how she could run the entire duration of the snare, because she had not reached the 15% or so needed to stop her from the snare.

As you can see in the video, I could have easily root tanked her the last 20%, without any significant resource loss. I will probably make two more videos, one with the root then snare strategy, and one with just root.

[DMN]

As you can see in the video, I could have easily root tanked her the last 20%, without any significant resource loss.




No resources other than the 4000 or so hit points for having to face tank it for the last 15% of its health, and the fact that you could theoretically die in that 15% if slow drops and you can't get it back on or you were some other place where you couldn't let the mob run very far and root wasn't holding very well -- or perhaps it's a cleric you don't want complete healing, a caster you don'
t wnt gating, and enchanter you don't want charming, some other mob/caster you'd prefer not nuking your face off.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No resources other than the 4000 or so hit points for having to face tank it for the last 15% of its health, and the fact that you could theoretically die in that 15% if slow drops and you can't get it back on or you were some other place where you couldn't let the mob run very far and root wasn't holding very well.

Can you post a video? I have yet to see the encounter you are describing, where the Snare Neck was the difference between life and death. You can math exactly how much HP I was losing in the fight, how long Turgurs would have lasted, and how much HP a Troll would have saved. In this video, a Troll would have saved 1520 HP in regeneration, didn't need the regeneration, and didn't need the snare neck.

I will continue posting evidence, so people can see how the game actually plays, not theory:) I would love to see some Troll Torpor Shamans do the same, and prove me wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kYEDUOoKU4 Look at all those caster froggies doing... nothing.

EDIT: Also, Complete Heal starts at 40%. If you are able to get a cleric mob down to 15%, it is almost certainly out of mana anyway. Any mob that can Complete Heal indefinitely is not soloable by a Shaman anyway. Unless you can show a specific encounter?:)

[DMN]

To give theotretical examples -- at around 13 minutes what could have happened is you could have gotten rooted in open hallway in LOS(he did cast root on you but you resisted since those guys are prolly green to you anyway) and his own root could have broken when he was in flee HP range. Then he quickly runs out of LOS before you reroot then you could have train on your hands( I'm not sure where the pathing goes in that exact spot but it should be illustrative enough ).

[DMN]

EDIT: Also, Complete Heal starts at 40%. If you are able to get a cleric mob down to 15%, it is almost certainly out of mana anyway. Any mob that can Complete Heal indefinitely is not soloable by a Shaman anyway. Unless you can show a specific encounter?:)

Mobs have boosted mana regen rates. It's stlll possible for them to regenerate enough mana to cast a complete heal even after previously exhausting their mana beyong CH range. And who knows, maybe it'snot a summoner? You can kill a healer as long as you stay out of melee range without them healing at all -- and guess what, snare makes keeping them out of melee range that much easier on a root breaks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

To give theotretical examples -- at around 13 minutes what could have happened is you could have gotten rooted in open hallway in LOS(he did cast root on you but you resisted since those guys are prolly green to you anyway) and his own root could have broken when he was in flee HP range. Then he quickly runs out of LOS before you reroot then you could have train on your hands( I'm not sure where the pathing goes in that exact spot but it should be illustrative enough ).

Seblis is an actual place Shamans like to go to solo. That means the mob's /con is relevant to my point about casters. If the places Shamans like to go are heavy on casters, but their spells get resisted most of the time, then you don't need Snare Neck. You just need resistance items and an understanding of the map and spawn points.

I agree if there is some hypothetical Cleric mob that drops awesome gear in the middle of a bunch of fast respawning mobs, Snare Neck MIGHT help. But I am talking about REAL camps that exist in the game. If the camps don't exist, the hypothetical is irrelevant. And if there is 1 or 2 camps out there like this, you can just get https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn or https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn to deal with those rare camps. It is the same thing with https://wiki.project1999.com/Puppet_Strings . You only need them for a few very specific camps or solo challenges, so it isn't that big of a deal that they are on an item with limited charges.

I would love to see a video of a specific camp where Snare Neck actually mattered:)

[DMN]

I would love to see a video of a specific camp where Snare Neck actually mattered:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcRRaXV-fg

Great video lol. Always a classic. Not seeing the relevance though:)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is doing Hechaeva with roots instead of letting her run:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLhe3KQXke0

This is actually my fastest video yet. Maybe I'll just do this strategy from now on lol.

[DMN]

Great video lol. Always a classic. Not seeing the relevance though:)

It wouldn't be nearly as funny OR relevant if you did.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It wouldn't be nearly as funny OR relevant if you did.

Being vague isn't being clever:)

[DMN]

Being vague isn't being clever:)

And being specific has been a giant waste of my time in this thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is another video showing Clinging Darkness on Seb Frogs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qGq5PZbMXc

3:05 - See how far the Knight runs before I re-root him. Not far at all. This would have been even faster if I was using immobilize instead of Paralyzing Earth.

3:22 - See the Shaman running. I did not even need to root him. I had plenty of time to double dot the mob, which caused a swift death.

11:30 - See a Bok Wizard get Clinging Darkness. Watch how bad the snare is, and how it wasn't really needed with the runway already available. I even purposely acted slowly, to see how much distance the frog could get. Snare briefly stopped the mob around 15% health, but I had plently of time to root the mob if I needed to.

This is another example of where snare doesn't really help. You can create a big enough runway for runners without snare, and even if your root ends up failing, the mob dies pretty quickly under 20% if they are trash mobs like this.

[Byrjun]

1. Ogre
2. Troll
3. Barbarian
4. Iksar

Always has been always will be.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

1. Ogre
2. Troll
3. Barbarian
4. Iksar

Always has been always will be.

Agreed.

[Crede]

Here is another video showing Clinging Darkness on Seb Frogs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qGq5PZbMXc

3:05 - See how far the Knight runs before I re-root him. Not far at all. This would have been even faster if I was using immobilize instead of Paralyzing Earth.

3:22 - See the Shaman running. I did not even need to root him. I had plenty of time to double dot the mob, which caused a swift death.

11:30 - See a Bok Wizard get Clinging Darkness. Watch how bad the snare is, and how it wasn't really needed with the runway already available. I even purposely acted slowly, to see how much distance the frog could get. Snare briefly stopped the mob around 15% health, but I had plently of time to root the mob if I needed to.

This is another example of where snare doesn't really help. You can create a big enough runway for runners without snare, and even if your root ends up failing, the mob dies pretty quickly under 20% if they are trash mobs like this.

All you’re doing is cherry picking scenarios trying to show that snare isn’t that useful. I could do exactly the same with FSI, And find plenty of scenarios where it literally made no difference.

All this thread has done has shown why ogre shamans are a good Shaman solo race at 60, which everyone already knew, whereas regen is more effective in groups and raids, which is what shamans ultimately are at their core, a support class. This is why regen is generally more useful. I still feel trolls are the best overall shaman, no math in this thread has been convincing otherwise, but I can see why one would want to go ogre for a solo focus or iksar for a raiding focus or barb for a faster leveling focus, all fashion aside.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All you’re doing is cherry picking scenarios trying to show that snare isn’t that useful. I could do exactly the same with FSI, And find plenty of scenarios where it literally made no difference.

All this thread has done has shown why ogre shamans are a good Shaman solo race at 60, which everyone already knew, whereas regen is more effective in groups and raids, which is what shamans ultimately are at their core, a support class. This is why regen is generally more useful. I still feel trolls are the best overall shaman, no math in this thread has been convincing otherwise, but I can see why one would want to go ogre for a solo focus or iksar for a raiding focus or barb for a faster leveling focus, all fashion aside.

Lol I am not cherry picking. I am showing real examples, in real scenarios that Shamans actually run into. I am giving indoor and outdoor examples. If you have a real example where Clinging Darkness helped, show it! I can't record all of Everquest in a day. This "Cherry Picking" argument is absolutely silly lol. I am the only one doing the work, while you just keep claiming "There is this scenario that exists that proves Trolls are better, I just can't show it!". So far, the Troll side has done nothing to prove what they claim.

EDIT: I have already proven how worthless Troll Regeneration is in Raids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k

In this video, a Troll would have factually saved 1040 HP over an Ogre. That is less than one Torpor. That means they would have saved 24 seconds worth of healing. That is meaningless 99% of the time in a raid.

Honestly, HOW ELSE would you do the math here? I just don't understand how people think Regeneration works in some magical way. Trolls save up to 4800 HP/Hour with standing Troll Regeneration. That is it, that is the best scenario a Troll gets, assuming they are under 100% HP the entire time. That is 3-4 Torpors, depending on if you are timing your Torpor to the server Tick or not. You get 1200HP per Torpor without timing it to the server tick, and 1500HP per torpor with timing it to the server tick.

[Crede]

Lol I am not cherry picking. I am showing real examples, in real scenarios that Shamans actually run into. I am giving indoor and outdoor examples. If you have a real example where Clinging Darkness helped, show it! I can't record all of Everquest in a day. This "Cherry Picking" argument is absolutely silly lol. I am the only one doing the work, while you just keep claiming "There is this scenario that exists that proves Trolls are better, I just can't show it!". So far, the Troll side has done nothing to prove what they claim.

EDIT: I have already proven how worthless Troll Regeneration is in Raids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k

In this video, a Troll would have factually saved 1040 HP over an Ogre. That is less than one Torpor. That means they would have saved 24 seconds worth of healing. That is meaningless 99% of the time in a raid.

No what’s silly is you throwing out numbers claiming FSI is superior. Guess what, FSI is also meaningless in a raid, or else being an ogre would be a requirement. You havent proved anything, just that you’re another biased ogre who values the potential benefit of FSI over snare/regen.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No what’s silly is you throwing out numbers claiming FSI is superior. Guess what, FSI is also meaningless in a raid, or else being an ogre would be a requirement. You havent proved anything, just that you’re another biased ogre who values the potential benefit of FSI over snare/regen.

I never claimed any Shaman racial was a requirement for raiding, or a game changer:) The debate has always been which "trivial" racial is better as a Torpor Shaman. Claiming I am biased when I am showing actual facts and scenarios, while you are showing nothing, is quite telling. I believe the bias is on your side, sir:)

What I said was FSI can help in raids, because Shamans do a lot of slowing, which grabs agro. FSI can trigger and prevent a slow interrupt. On top of that, if you are using https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh , you are swinging more often than a Troll, because you don't have to worry about the 1.5 seconds of stuns.

Regeneration doesn't help at all in buff sessions, as show here. Honestly grouping Shamans don't spend this much mana in 13 minutes 99% of the time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k

Regeneration can help in AoE fights, depending on the fight. I never claimed otherwise. The problem is most AoE fights don't really need it. They are either extremely fast, or you can use Line of Sight to avoid the AoE. There aren't a ton of AoE fights where it is long, AND you have to take all the AoEs. In those situations Regeneration is helpful.

The question is simply which racial gets used more often on a Torpor Shaman who likes to solo, group, and raid. This is most Torpor Shamans I would wager. The answer is FSI. Look how quickly Torpor Shamans get back to full and stop regenerating:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc

Look how much Troll Regeneration would have helped in a long fight (not at all):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU

FSI saves up to 48 seconds here, depending on which bashes had stuns. Trolls would have gained NOTHING in the fight. They would save 48 seconds (2 Torpors) worth of healing at the end of the fight.

And finally, for the Clinging Darkness argument, here is how good Clinging Darkness is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYSN1sN9z8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qGq5PZbMXc

It simply isn't that useful due to how bad the snare is, and how short it's duration is. This is why it isn't anything special. Not to say it can't help here and there, but other Shaman races can get snares too if they want them. You can do the easy ones https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn and https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn , or you can do the hard one https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction .

[DMN]

Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Me thinks the autist doth protest too much.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Me thinks the autist doth protest too much.

Insulting people is not an argument, and it simply shows how little you can offer against my arguments. It should be trivial for you to show me the hypotheticals you claim make Trolls superior. You have a Troll Torpor Shaman, correct?

[DMN]

Insulting people is not an argument, and it simply shows how little you can offer against my arguments. It should be trivial for you to show me the hypotheticals you claim make Trolls superior. You have a Troll Torpor Shaman, correct?


Let me post a video of an ogre shaman never getting bashed in a fight and the keep saying " see, FSI is stupid" or post a troll shaman video here bash never stuns and say the " see my overwhelming evidence and compelling argument that FSI is completely worthless.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me post a video of an ogre shaman never getting bashed in a fight and the keep saying " see, FSI is stupid" or post a troll shaman video here bash never stuns and say the " see my overwhelming evidence and compelling argument that FSI is completely worthless.

Using false equivalencies is not an argument. I am not doing what you are suggesting I am doing. I am posting video evidence of real situations in which Shamans operate. I am also posting videos of a Shaman using Clinging Darkness lol.

You are insulting people, making silly hypotheticals (which you refuse to back up at all), and use false equivalencies to try and avoid the fact that you aren't doing anything to prove your argument:)

[DMN]

Using false equivalencies is not an argument. I am not doing what you are suggesting I am doing. I am posting video evidence of real situations in which Shamans operate. I am also posting videos of a Shaman using Clinging Darkness lol.

You are insulting people, making silly hypotheticals (which you refuse to back up at all), and use false equivalencies to try and avoid the fact that you aren't doing anything to prove your argument:)

You insult everyone who dared read through this giant clusterfuck of a pointless thread by wasting their time. And I'd hate to tell you, but the whole logic of FSI ever helping an ogre out -- even just one time-- is purely hypothetical. Guess that makes your choice of racefor shaman pretty damn "silly", huh?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You insult everyone who dared read through this giant clusterfuck of a pointless thread by wasting their time. And I'd hate to tell you, but the whole logic of FSI ever helping an ogre out -- even just one time-- is purely hypothetical.

100% false on everything you just said. FSI is factually working. It has helped players, including myself. This is your weakest argument yet:)

[DMN]

100% false on everything you just said. FSI is factually working. It has helped players, including myself. This is your weakest argument yet:)

So show me the video of your ogre shaman benefiting from FSi.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So show me the video of your ogre shaman benefiting from FSi.

Every video I have posted I am getting bashed. Nobody here is going to claim FSI is broken/not working. Just watch those and count how many times I get bashed:) You will see the lack of stuns as video proof it is working. I play other races, and I know stuns happen fairly often. They are not some crazy low percentage chance of happening, like 1%.

You can also watch my videos and see how often snare and troll regeneration would have helped (which is not at all).

[DMN]

Every video I have posted I am getting bashed. Nobody here is going to claim FSI is broken/not working. Just watch those and count how many times I get bashed:) You will see the lack of stuns as video proof it is working. I play other races, and I know stuns happen fairly often. They are not some crazy low percentage chance of happening, like 1%.

You can also watch my videos and see how often snare and troll regeneration would have helped (which is not at all).

Remember when you cried yourself to sleep after i pointed out how FSI could be detrimental?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Remember when you cried yourself to sleep after i pointed out how FSI could be detrimental?

I have never lost a wink of sleep due to you:) I am trying to help other players learn.

I already have a video showing the exact issue you are talking about lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU

1:47 - Bash happens in-between spell casts. Saves 1.5 seconds of stun time.
5:25 - Bash happens during Curse of The Spirits casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 9 seconds (1.5 from stun and the 7 or so seconds from the spent cast time).
5:55 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Save 6 seconds (1.5 from stun and 4.5 or so seconds from the spent cast time).
6:28 - Bash happens in-between spell casts. Saves 1.5 seconds of stun time.
6:57 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 6 seconds (1.5 from stun and 4.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
7:30 - Bash happens during Cannibalize casting half way. Gets interrupted. Saves 0.25 seconds (1.25 lost from interruption, 1.5 gained from stun time).
8:00 - Bash happens during Cannibalize at the end of the cast. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 4 seconds (1.5 from stun and 2.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
9:03 - Bash happens during Cannibalize casting half way. Gets interrupted. Saves 0.25 seconds (1.25 lost from interruption, 1.5 gained from stun time).
9:35 - Bash happens during Torpor casting near the end. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 7 seconds (1.5 from stun and 5.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
10:06 - Bash happens during Winters Roar at the end of the cast. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 8 seconds (1.5 from stun and 6.5 or so seconds into the cast time).
11:09 - Bash happens in between casting. Saves 1.5 seconds.
12:43 - Bash happens near the beginning of Winters Roar. Doesn't get interrupted. Saves 3 seconds (1.5 from stun and 1.5 or so seconds into the cast time).

Even when you want to talk about the potential determent to FSI (You can finish casting the spell before you realize it is interrupted), you can see from this list that most of the time, it would NOT have hurt me. Trolls have this EXACT same problem on any bash that did not stun, but had an interrupt.

EDIT: as I have said many times, the determent to FSI is a wash when comparing Trolls to Ogres, because it really depends on WHEN the stun occurs during the cast time. Sometimes Ogres save time, sometimes Trolls save time.

[DMN]

https://i.imgur.com/hlcfd4M.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/hlcfd4M.gif

Another example of the inability to counter the arguments presented.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY

Here is a video of me soloing Frenzy camp in Velks. No need for snare here, mobs don't run at 20%. Plenty of me getting bashed and not getting stunned. No Troll Regeneration needed either.

[DMN]

Here is me soloing an internet troll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is me soloing an internet troll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Still not an argument, or evidence to support your claims.

[DMN]

Still not an argument, or evidence to support your claims.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0idLSOQZmRw

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0idLSOQZmRw

You really should preface your trolling, so people don't waste their time clicking a link they think could be evidence. Spoiler, this is just another trolling video. Monty Python and the Holy Grail, to be specific.

[DMN]

You really should preface your trolling, so people don't waste their time clicking a link they think could be evidence.


What are you going to do, bleed on me?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What are you going to do, bleed on me?

I am simply asking you to be courteous to the other people reading this thread. It is honestly not for my benefit.

There are people who genuinely want to get to the bottom of this debate, and look at the facts. If you have already decided that your mind cannot be changed, and you refuse to provide any evidence for your claims, you aren't really offering anything new here.

[DMN]

I am simply asking you to be courteous to the other people reading this thread. It is honestly not for my benefit.

That's rich, coming from the guy who has turned this thread into a non-stop shitfest.


There are people who genuinely want to get to the bottom of this debate, and look at the facts. If you have already decided that your mind cannot be changed, and you refuse to provide any evidence for your claims, you aren't really offering anything new here.

Yes, and those people , assuming they read through this thread, already have you on ignore. You are either a giant idiot or one of the most disingenuous posters I've seen on p99. in either case, any would-be reader is wasting their time reading anything you have to say.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's rich, coming from the guy who has turned this thread into a non-stop shitfest.



Yes, and those people , assuming they read through this thread, already have you on ignore. You are either a giant idiot or one of the most disingenuous posters I've seen on p99. in either case, any would-be reader is wasting their time reading anything you have to say.

How have I turned this thread into a shitfest by posting facts and evidence?

Who is the one insulting people and posting troll videos and memes?:)

[DMN]

How have I turned this thread into a shitfest by posting facts and evidence?


Because your "facts" and "evidence" are much more akin to "shit", festive or otherwise.


Who is the one insulting people and posting troll videos and memes?:)

Like i mentioned before, you are the biggest insult by wasting god knows how many peoples time with your complete non-stop, detached from reality bullshit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Because your "facts" and "evidence" are much more akin to "shit", festive or otherwise.



Like i mentioned before, you are the biggest insult by wasting god knows how many peoples time with your complete non-stop, detached from reality bullshit.

It is pretty obvious who the shit poster is here:) You aren't doing yourself any favors here.

[Crede]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY

Here is a video of me soloing Frenzy camp in Velks. No need for snare here, mobs don't run at 20%. Plenty of me getting bashed and not getting stunned. No Troll Regeneration needed either.

What does snare not being needed and troll regeneration not needed have anything to do with this entire debate? FSI isn't needed either. No racial is needed to solo any mob, for any class. Your bash scenarios literally mean nothing to help kill the mob, a troll just might have to click a spell gem an extra time or 2.

You say you're trying to help, but this thread was quiet for a few days, then you started stirring shit up again. As I already stated, you're just a biased ogre whose borderline trolling at this point pretending your math actually is convincing anybody other than yourself.

We get it, FSI is cool, my next char could likely be an ogre war/SK, but you're just giving us hypothetical scenarios against tried and true regeneration. 1, 2, 3, or 4 more torpors in an hour, whatever it is, it's helping you more than FSI is in the overall gameplay that encompasses a shaman. I'd bet money that raids have wiped more to one last heal not going off then a shaman not having FSI. You might just kill the mob slightly faster with an ogre because of bash for solo play, but I already admitted that if I wanted to do nothing but solo, I'd be an ogre. So again, I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince here or what you're trying to prove.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What does snare not being needed and troll regeneration not needed have anything to do with this entire debate? FSI isn't needed either. No racial is needed to solo any mob, for any class. Your bash scenarios literally mean nothing to help kill the mob, a troll just might have to click a spell gem an extra time or 2.


I never claimed any racial was needed to kill these mobs, or any other mobs. You can read everything I have said. I am not sure why people keep claiming I am saying racials are required to be a Torpor Shaman. I have never said that, and I have said multiple times already in this thread a Torpor Shaman's race is irrelevant.

The debate has always been which racial is the best, irrespective of the fact that it doesn't really matter. Just because it doesn't really matter, doesn't mean people don't want to know which race is best. This is why people keep asking over and over and over across multiple forums! One race is factually the best, and I don't see why it is such a travesty to figure that out, even if you don't like the results.

I keep saying "Regeneration and Snare wasn't needed" because that is factually correct. I never needed snare to keep the mobs under control, and I was never at a point where Regeneration would have saved my life. You can do the math yourself to confirm this. My point is to show common scenarios Shamans encounter, and how useful a racial is in that scenario. In all the videos I posted, I WAS getting bashed. This means FSI was doing more for me than Regeneration and Snare. It is really that simple, and factually correct. I have video evidence.


You say you're trying to help, but this thread was quiet for a few days, then you started stirring shit up again. As I already stated, you're just a biased ogre whose borderline trolling at this point pretending your math actually is convincing anybody other than yourself.


If your definition of "stirring shit up" is having a civil discussion and posting evidence, we will need to agree to disagree on that one lol. I am not the one insulting people and posting memes when I am unable to counter someones point. Not saying you did that specifically, I don't think you did. But some people are:)

I find it funny that I am the biased one, when I am the only one spending the time and effort to post videos showing how an actual Torpor Shaman works. So far, I have a lot more evidence to prove my point than yourself. It is pretty biased to assume you are right, AND you don't need any evidence to be right. Maybe you are the biased one?:)


We get it, FSI is cool, my next char could likely be an ogre war/SK, but you're just giving us hypothetical scenarios against tried and true regeneration. 1, 2, 3, or 4 more torpors in an hour, whatever it is, it's helping you more than FSI is in the overall gameplay that encompasses a shaman.


Why do people disagree with my math? Do you have a different way to interpret Multiplying 8 HP Regen x 10 Ticks per minute X however many minutes the Troll is not at 100% HP? That is how you do the math. There is no other way around it. Trolls get 4800 HP per hour standing at max per hour, assuming they are not at 100% HP the entire time. That is 3-4 Torpors per hour, meaning you save 2 minutes per hour. That is 2 minutes per hour soloing, 2 minutes per hour grouping, and 2 minues per hour raiding. It doesn't change when you do something different. 2 minutes on a Torpor Shaman just isn't anything useful due to how fast you regenerate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc . You can keep saying Regeneration helps a Torpor Shaman more, but you are factually incorrect, and the math proves it.


I'd bet money that raids have wiped more to one last heal not going off then a shaman not having FSI. You might just kill the mob slightly faster with an ogre because of bash for solo play, but I already admitted that if I wanted to do nothing but solo, I'd be an ogre. So again, I'm not really sure who you're trying to convince here or what you're trying to prove.

Showing the best case scenario for FSI is NOT the same thing as claiming "More raids have wiped due to racial x than to racial y". That could be proved if everyone in the raid had logs going the entire time, for every raid, but I doubt we will ever get that complete data set, or have someone who cares enough to parse it.

The only thing I can do is show you REAL encounters a Shaman experiences, and what the normal outcome is. Based on that, you can determine which racial is benefiting the Shaman more. The answer is FSI. In every video I posted, I am getting Bashed. Not once did I need Troll Regeneration to save me. Not once did I need Snare to save me. That doesn't mean it can never save me, but in a normal situation, FSI is more useful than Troll Regeneration or Snare. In the RARE case where Troll Regeneration or Snare saves you, I can easily argue FSI could have saved you too.

This is why FSI is better.

In the NORMAL situations, like the videos I have made, FSI is doing more for you than Troll Regeneration.

In the RARE situations, where a racial can save your life, that is the same argument you can make for any racial, whether it is FSI, Regen, or Snare Neck.

The thing that really puts the nail in the coffin for snare neck is every Shaman race can get snare clickies, so if Snare can save your life in RARE situations, just get some snare clickies and leave them in your bag for emergencies. I am sure you already have a WC cap and a Reaper ready for such a rare emergency.

[Crede]

I keep saying "Regeneration and Snare wasn't needed" because that is factually correct. I never needed snare to keep the mobs under control, and I was never at a point where Regeneration would have saved my life. You can do the math yourself to confirm this. My point is to show common scenarios Shamans encounter, and how useful a racial is in that scenario. In all the videos I posted, I WAS getting bashed. This means FSI was doing more for me than Regeneration and Snare. It is really that simple, and factually correct. I have video evidence.

I'm not sure why you're claiming that regen/snare are both inferior abilities to FSI because they didn't save your life in the scenarios you provided. All you've shown is that FSI is more effective in soloing a named. We already knew this. You haven't shown me why an ability that only applies when you're tanking surpasses 1.) Regen - which applies in basically 100% of shaman gameplay & 2.) Snare - Which makes your life easier in any situation that FSI applies because you don't have to worry about getting a near impossible to obtain VP weapon or carrying around extra clickies which you could easily blow through in one dungeon session.

Until then, Regen > FSI overall & FSI/snare is a wash.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not sure why you're claiming that regen/snare are both inferior abilities to FSI because they didn't save your life in the scenarios you provided. All you've shown is that FSI is more effective in soloing a named. We already knew this. You haven't shown me why an ability that only applies when you're tanking surpasses 1.) Regen - which applies in basically 100% of shaman gameplay & 2.) Snare - Which makes your life easier in any situation that FSI applies because you don't have to worry about getting a near impossible to obtain VP weapon or carrying around extra clickies which you could easily blow through in one dungeon session.

Until then, Regen > FSI overall & FSI/snare is a wash.

Sure! I have already demonstrated both of your points in this in the thread previously, but let me try to be a little more succinct in my answer this time. Let me preface a few things here, so we don't get lost on tangents:

1. The debate is which racial is the OVERALL best for a Torpor Shaman.
2. No racials are game changing for Shamans. We are simply determining which racial is the OVERALL best, with the knowledge it doesn't matter most of the time.
3. Trolls are the BEST Shaman race Pre-Torpor. I have said this multiple times already.
4. Some people prefer to Min/Max their characters after they have completed their character, even if that means suffering a bit more during the leveling process. This debate is for those people.
5. If you prefer fashion questing or leveling speed over Min/Max after your character is complete, this debate is not discussing that.

Troll Regeneration (+8 HP Per Tick Standing. Sitting Regeneration is irrelevant, as Torpor Shamans only sit to change spells)

Summary: Troll Regeneration gives you 4800 HP per hour, assuming you are under 100% HP the entire hour. This means a Troll is saving 3-4 Torpors per hour maximum, depending on when the Torpor lands with the server tick. 1200 HP Per Torpor normally, and 1500 HP Per Torpor when timed to the server tick. This equates to 1.5-2 minutes saved of healing yourself per hour (6 second cast time for Torpor, 24 seconds of buff duration).

1. How often is a Torpor Shaman under 100% HP?

- NORMAL SITUATION: Not as much as you would think: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc . This video shows how quickly a Torpor Shaman can get from low HP and Mana to 100% HP and Mana. The video is 3 minutes and 48 seconds long. After that, you stop all regeneration. This is worn, buff, and racial. Torpor Shamans are often at 100% HP. You are also under 100% HP when in combat, if you are taking damage.

- RARE SITUTATION: I have yet to run into this, but theoretically you could be killing more mobs than you should safely. This could mean you are never at 100% HP, as you are constantly moving from one battle to the next without stopping to get your resources back.

2. When is Troll Regeneration useful in Solo and Group situations?

- NORMAL SITUATION: Any time Troll Regeneration was NOT used to save your life, it ONLY saves you time after the battle during the recovery phase. In this example of a long fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY , my life was never in danger. A Troll would have saved 1600 HP at the end of the fight. This means a Troll would have saved 30 seconds to one minute at best in the recovery phase. 30 seconds if Torporing on a server Tick, 1 minute otherwise, due to having to cast Torpor twice.

- RARE SITUATION: In the rare chance a small amount of HP was the difference between life and death, Troll Regeneration could have saved you here, depending on the HP amount, and the point in the fight this occured. The point in the fight is important, because regeneration takes time to add up. If you would have died within the first 24 seconds of a fight, Troll Regeneration was probably not the savior here, due to how little you regenerated to begin with. If you would have died 5 minutes into the fight, Troll Regeneration might have been the deciding factor for living.

3. When is Troll Regeneration useful in Raid situations?

- NORMAL SITUATION: Troll Regeneration isn't useful at all in buff sessions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k . In this video, you can see me buffing 10 people, with two Primal Avatars thrown in. The video time is 12 minutes, 45 seconds to go from 100% HP and Mana and back again after buffs. This means a Troll would have saved 1024 HP, or less than 1 Torpor worth of HP. A Troll would have saved 30 seconds of recovery time, which is useless 99% of the time in raids. As a class that always stays in camp, you are waiting at 100% HP and Mana for a good portion of the raid. On top of that, Raids in P99 tend to be Shaman heavy, rather than Shaman light. This means less HP and Mana spent per Shaman. Troll Regeneration is also useless in melee combat in Raids. Shamans have a relatively small max HP pool, and they don't usually get Aegolism. This means any Shaman that gets focused by a raid mob will die in less than a minute. Regeneration will have no affect here, due to how fast and how hard Raid mobs hit.

- RARE SITUATION: In SOME AoE fights, Troll Regeneration is useful for damage mitigation. While most AoE fights are fast, or you can avoid the AoE with Line of Sight, there are a few AoE fights that are long, and the ENTIRE raid must be AoE'd the entire time. In this situation, Troll Regeneration is quite useful, as it can save your life on rare occasions. In rare melee situations, Troll Regeneration could give you an extra second or two, due to being able to survive one more auto attack in melee than a race without regeneration. This could be the difference between raid success and raid wipe, if you were almost finished casting a slow or a heal. However, if you really want to build a character to be the best damage mitigation Shaman out there, Iksar is the better choice. They have regeneration, an AC bonus, better base resistances, and access to Stone of Morid.

Frontal Stun Immunity (Or FSI for short)

Summary: Frontal Stun Immunity means you are immune to the stun component from certain melee attacks, such as bash. This only works when you are in melee combat, and the mob is in front of you. It will NOT work on mobs hitting you from behind.


1. When is Frontal Stun Immunity useful in Solo and Group situations?

- NORMAL SITUATION: If you are not getting hit by a mob, Frontal Stun Immunity is useless. In any normal situation, Frontal Stun Immunity doesn't really matter, since saving fight time and HP still only translates to less recovery time at the end. Any time you are tanking the mob, or get agro from the mob due to high agro spells like Slow, Frontal Stun Immunity is potentially saving you time and HP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU . In this video in the summary, I have bookmarks for each bash that lands on me during the fight. I save 0-48 seconds of spell interruption, depending on which bashes would have stunned (there is no way to know which ones would have). This saves HP, due to the fight lasting less time, and thus getting hit less. The other nice thing FSI does is it allows you to move more freely in a fight, due to not being forced to stand in one position, waiting for a stun to clear. It also allows you to swing proc weapons like https://wiki.project1999.com/Journeyman's_Walking_Stick more often, due to stuns not preventing auto attacks.

- RARE SITUATION: Frontal Stun Immunity can save your life. If you are pulling a hard mob, and you are getting an unlucky chain of slow resists, landing a slow one cast sooner could be the difference between life and death. If you need to Gate, Frontal Stun Immunity increases your chance of Gate going off. If you need to root a monster to prevent death, less spell interrupts means you can get out of the mobs attack radius faster. If you need to start running immediately, not getting stunned means you have a 1.5 second lead.

2. When is Frontal Stun Immunity useful in Raid situations?

- NORMAL SITUATION: Frontal Stun Immunity is useless in buff sessions, since you are not getting hit. Frontal Stun Immunity IS useful in melee situations. One of a Shaman's primary roles in raiding is Slowing mobs, both bosses and trash. As I said in the Regeneration section, getting focused by a mob means you will die in one minute or less. This means getting off a few slows before you die is critical, even when you are guaranteed to die. Not getting stunned also means you can swing https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh more times in the fight before you die, due to not having to wait for stun to finish to resume auto attacking.

- RARE SITUATION: If raid boss summons you, you will die in less than 6 seconds. If you had auto-attack on with https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh , you could get a swing in before you die, and proc the weapon. That could be the difference between a raid wipe and a not raid wipe, due to a slow landing ASAP.

Snaring as a Shaman (Regent Symbol of Innoruuk, and Snaring in general on a Shaman)

Summary: https://wiki.project1999.com/Regent_Symbol_of_Innoruuk allows Troll Shamans specifically to cast Clinging Darkness indefinitely. The item has a 6 second cast time. There are other items a non Troll Shaman can acquire to snare: https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn , https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn , and https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction .

- NORMAL SITUATION: Snares are generally useless on a Shaman, due to the strategies they employ, and the encounters they prefer to fight. Clinging Darkness specifically is even more useless on a Shaman, due to it being the worst snare in the game, with a 6 tick duration. Here are two videos showing Clinging Darkness in action as a Shaman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUYSN1sN9z8 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qGq5PZbMXc . Root is more than capable of CCing most mobs effectively most of the time, even when they are running, or casters. Here is a video of a Shaman resisting most spells or using LoS to control casters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kYEDUOoKU4 . By the time the casters hit 20% HP, they are out of mana anyway. Here is a video of a Shaman controlling 5 monsters with just roots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY . There just aren't a lot of situations or camps where Snare does anything significant a root could not do. This is especially true due to Clinging Darkness being the worst snare in the game.

- RARE SITUATION: If you absolutely need a caster to stop casting spells at 20%, Snare will hold or slow the mob, preventing casting. This is uncommon, however, because you would need to be in control of the caster for the first 80% of their HP. This means you are either resisting or using Line of Sight. Complete Heal starts at 40%, so you would need to be able to get the mob to 20% to start running anyway for snare to be effective. For Gate mobs, you can fight them on their spawn point. If a camp exists where mobs are extremely close to each other, and even a bit of running will agro mobs, Snare is good when combined with Root. If root breaks, the snare should be able to hold the mob in place until you re-root. This situation is quite rare, however, due to the mechanics of root breaking. If a mob can be consistently rooted due to not having high resists, it will not have heavy root breaks most of the time. A Shaman who is paying attention can re-root a mob in less than 2 seconds, which is almost always enough time. If a mob has high resistances, causing roots to be resisted and break often, then snares are also going to be resisted quite a bit. This means Snare/Root overlap is less likely, especially with Clinging Darkness's 6 tick duration, and Regent Symbol of Innoruuk's 6 second cast time. In the unlikely event snare is needed, https://wiki.project1999.com/Ball_of_Burlap_Yarn and https://wiki.project1999.com/Scepter_of_the_Forlorn are more than adequate. I have two Balls of Burlap Yarn in my bag, and a Scepter. I have yet to use them at ALL for an emergency situation. I have only used the scepter for the videos I posted showing the efficacy of Clinging Darnkess. You just don't really need an infinite clicky, due to the rarity of the necessity of snare. For any Shamans that really want infinite snare, https://wiki.project1999.com/Spear_of_Constriction is available, and it is the best snare in the game a Shaman can get.

Final Thoughts (TLDR)

Troll Regeneration in Solo/Group Situations:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Useless
- RARE SITUATION: Might save your life

Troll Regeneration in Raid Situations:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Useless in Buff sessions and Melee
- RARE SITUATION: Might save your life, might allow you to get an additional slow off. However, Iksars are better at this overall, if your goal is to be the best damage mitigation Shaman out there in Raids

Frontal Stun Immunity in Solo/Group Situations:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Might save time during a fight
- RARE SITUATION: Might save your life

Frontal Stun Immunity in Raid Situations:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Useless in Buff sessions, Can be useful in Melee to get an additional slow off
- RARE SITUATION: Might allow you to get an additional Slow off

Snare on a Shaman:
- NORMAL SITUATION: Useless
- RARE SITUATION: Might save your life, but not exclusive to Trolls.

As you can see, Frontal Stun Immunity has less "Useless" situations overall, and is thus superior. On top of that, one of the situations in which Troll Regeneration IS useful, Iksars are better anyway. Snare is a wash, due to the rarity of usage, and the ability for other races to get it for emergencies.

[Jimjam]

You've defended your thesis admirably, and I award you a PhD* in Shaman Shenanigans.

*Pixel hording dweller

[Naethyn]

Ogre = Best raiding/RP shaman (tunare ogre wall, ogre speech)
Iksar = Best fashion/starting area shaman (boot buckles, kunark)
Barbarian = Best use of items/non kos shaman (blind, goodguys)
Troll = Best hardcore shaman (pyrocat)

solved.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You've defended your thesis admirably, and I award you a PhD* in Shaman Shenanigans.

*Pixel hording dweller

Lol thanks! I like it, quite clever.

Ogre = Best raiding/RP shaman (tunare ogre wall, ogre speech)
Iksar = Best fashion/starting area shaman (boot buckles, kunark)
Barbarian = Best use of items/non kos shaman (blind, goodguys)
Troll = Best hardcore shaman (pyrocat)

solved.

I always forget the Orge wall. Great summary again. Good point about being a "hardcore Shaman" too! For those rare individuals who want to play a character that has never died.