/list feature first phase completed - reviews and suggestions for the future

[Izmael]

So we just went through the first incarnation of the /list feature.
Post your thoughts and eventual suggestions for improvement.

I'll start.

The good: overall, a great success. It worked exactly as announced, I haven't ran into any glitches. It allowed people who aren't as dedicated to EQ as some others to still compete to an extent which is a Good Thing. Meanwhile, it allowed the most commited ones to still get the lion's share of the loot, as it should be.

Kudos for the implementation, to whoever did it (I assume Rogean).


The bad: how it draws people to wish others (with a better # position than them) failed and the inevitable lawyering that ensues. The mechanics of /list create too many situations where instead of camaraderie, it results in tension and hard feelings. It's hard to imagine the number of /petition that have been generated by the manastone camp alone.



A solution to this problem has been proposed - randomly award the coveted item to one of the first 6 players on the list - drawing the mechanics of a particular camp closer to what it would be without /list - an exp group camping it and /rolling on the loot.

I would like to know what the GMs and the rest of people who used /list think of it.

[Natewest1987]

find a way to prevent account sharing or the whole thing is BS

[xalg]

it makes account sharing a requirement for the most coveted items and it encourages those who can't or don't want to account share to stay up for unhealthy periods of time. if it was up to me, a random person on the list would be selected on each drop without regard to their position.

[Izmael]

But account sharing is fine. It involves trusting your friends and receive trust from them, which is good.

[Indecisive]

But you're not camping the item yourself, which is the spirit of the system.

If your IP changes, you should be moved to the bottom of the list.

[Elijah850]

Agree with Indecisive

[Izmael]

But you're not camping the item yourself, which is the spirit of the system.

If your IP changes, you should be moved to the bottom of the list.

What's wrong with having someone helping you camp an item? It has been in EQ since day 1.

Also, if you declare it wrong, you cannot really police that. Someone's router can reboot and the IP changes. Or they are using mobile internet and IP changes often. Not to mention, sneaky people will find a way around it anyway (screen sharing etc, and you cannot really police that).

[Indecisive]

Yeah, there would be problems with it, just like every solution. Nothing would be perfect. But it would go a long way towards making it more fair for people who are willing to put in the work, without making it so only guilds or people with a friends list to the floor can win the item. That was the whole point of the /list system in the first place.

Back of the line on IP change, and random 1 - 6 on list to mimic full group.

[Izmael]

What good is there in a solution that is easy to defeat if you're malicious but will hinder honest people at the same time? Sounds like a cure worse than the disease itself.

I wouldn't mind it myself personally, but I doubt the devs would consider that.

[Jibien]

Just my two cents take it with a grain of salt:

The /list system was interesting to say the least but the amount of people who join a /list and FD till they hit #1, or even just to loot their item, was insane.

I think the lockout on the item drops should be permanent per toon. Get the item 1ce and move on or level another toon to farm.

1-This allows equal opportunity to the coveted loot (which I think is the whole purpose of the /list system)

2- This prevents people from hoarding the items and messing up the economy before it is even started (too late to an extent)

3-Makes the account sharing a mute point because once each toon has the item they will be unable to farm the camp again on that toon. (this promotes more alt leveling and could help noobs find groups in soon to be empty zones)

4- Anyone wanting to collect the "Lion's Share" as it was put can level multiple toons and do so while the casual gamers don't have to lose a camp to the same toon multiple times.

[Indecisive]

What good is there in a solution that is easy to defeat if you're malicious but will hinder honest people at the same time?

Isn't that exactly what we have now? Stay up for days on end for Manastone, or participate in account sharing so your guild can farm up Manastones to use and sell later on?

The impact on "honest" players would be minimal. It's the Scrooge McDuck pixel hoarders that would scream.

[Farinor]

Why not just makes the drops more common?

[Endonde]

Account sharing is all fun and games until your "friend" gets your account permanently banned for RMT.

[jolanar]

It was a success in the only metric that matters: less petitions for staff to review.

[Baler]

No Sharing: If your ip changes you get booted off the list.
If they're VNCing they're running the risk of multibox ban.

It was a success in the only metric that matters: less petitions for staff to review.
+1

[kelsoider]

Just my two cents take it with a grain of salt:

The /list system was interesting to say the least but the amount of people who join a /list and FD till they hit #1, or even just to loot their item, was insane.

I think the lockout on the item drops should be permanent per toon. Get the item 1ce and move on or level another toon to farm.

1-This allows equal opportunity to the coveted loot (which I think is the whole purpose of the /list system)

2- This prevents people from hoarding the items and messing up the economy before it is even started (too late to an extent)

3-Makes the account sharing a mute point because once each toon has the item they will be unable to farm the camp again on that toon. (this promotes more alt leveling and could help noobs find groups in soon to be empty zones)

4- Anyone wanting to collect the "Lion's Share" as it was put can level multiple toons and do so while the casual gamers don't have to lose a camp to the same toon multiple times.

You're making too much sense

[loramin]

A solution to this problem has been proposed - randomly award the coveted item to one of the first 6 players on the list - drawing the mechanics of a particular camp closer to what it would be without /list - an exp group camping it and /rolling on the loot.

I like this idea ... as I like any idea that returns /list to playing EverQuest (ie. luck and patience) instead of playing a non-EQ made-up game (click the box every few minutes).

That being said, I don't think the group thing is necessary at all, and it'd be simpler to just list for a random chance to kill the mob when it spawns. To solve the "people don't kill their own mob" problem, make it so winning /list only gives you a ten minute window to kill: if you fail to do so in that time, /list happens again, giving the mob to someone else.

Again, I'm happy with any "more-EverQuesty" solution (and also, to be clear, /list 1.0 is still far more "EverQuesty" than not having a list at all) ... it's just that among all possible solutions I favor simpler ones over complex ones.

[Jibien]

it's just that among all possible solutions I favor simpler ones over complex ones.

don't think it gets more simplistic than permanently locking out a toon once they get an item.

[drdrakes]

So we just went through the first incarnation of the /list feature.
Post your thoughts and eventual suggestions for improvement.

I'll start.

The good: overall, a great success. It worked exactly as announced, I haven't ran into any glitches. It allowed people who aren't as dedicated to EQ as some others to still compete to an extent which is a Good Thing. Meanwhile, it allowed the most commited ones to still get the lion's share of the loot, as it should be.

Kudos for the implementation, to whoever did it (I assume Rogean).


The bad: how it draws people to wish others (with a better # position than them) failed and the inevitable lawyering that ensues. The mechanics of /list create too many situations where instead of camaraderie, it results in tension and hard feelings. It's hard to imagine the number of /petition that have been generated by the manastone camp alone.



A solution to this problem has been proposed - randomly award the coveted item to one of the first 6 players on the list - drawing the mechanics of a particular camp closer to what it would be without /list - an exp group camping it and /rolling on the loot.

I would like to know what the GMs and the rest of people who used /list think of it.

Between screenshare and afk checker bots/exploits the only improvement I see is requiring characters to be max level for lists and to be active during the engagement of the mob.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

99% chance locket of escape is perma camped

[loramin]

don't think it gets more simplistic than permanently locking out a toon once they get an item.

I'm sort of in favor of that, but really the decision on lockouts is almost totally separate from the decision on how to do /list, so they're really separate discussions.

The part I don't like about permanent lockouts is that it's not very EverQuesty. In any system the staff comes up with, if the item isn't no drop I don't think it's a bad thing to have people farming it and selling it.

Ultimately any system is going to require large amounts of time sunk to "win" an item. Not everyone will want to do that, and I don't see anything wrong (or out of character for EQ) in letting player A farm plat, character B farm a legacy item, and then those two players exchange their goods. Permanent lockout prevents that, and makes it much harder for people who'd rather farm plat to ever see a legacy item.

But for no drop legacy items? There is no reason for anyone to ever farm two, at least if they're lore (and I think they all are?), so it doesn't even require a lockout, because who is going to waste hours camping an item they already have, and can't use a second copy of?

[Izmael]

I agree that Everquestiness shall be respected. Permanent lockout (even though I wouldn't mind personally), isn't right. Droppable or nodrop. The lockout can be randomish though, just like it was for phase 1.

[Bristlebaner]

I think you should only be allowed to be on the list for 12 hours total. Anything beyond that is encouraging unhealthy behavior, as well as account sharing.

[Taiku]

I think you should only be allowed to be on the list for 12 hours total. Anything beyond that is encouraging unhealthy behavior, as well as account sharing.

This wouldn't work, having a time limit on the list would just cause chaos and a lot of anger as you would finally get to #1 and then not have enough time to get the item before your window was up.

This whole thing seems like some sort of psychological torture for people who are very invested, with the fear of missing out on the items, I think the whole thing is very unhealthy and rather unethical if people are spending DAYS at the keyboard to hit afk checks while they wait for their chance to wait for an item.

I've no investment in any of these items, but I wish there was a better solution.. I feel sad for the people who are spending days camping these items, having a way to limit the time invested would be ideal but a hard time cutoff seems rough, unless each spawn that didn't contain the item dropped like a fragment of the item, so you could spend 10 hours at a camp, and come away with 1/5th of the item or whatever it works out to be.

But anyway, not classic, so enjoy your fungi staff camp experience!

[loramin]

I wish there was a better solution

I think either the system Izmael has proposed (/list to join the item group), the system I proposed (/list to win the rights to kill the item mob for 10 minutes), or any other system that relies on "luck and patience" (ie. playing EverQuest) as opposed to not sleeping and clicking unclassic boxes, will be a vast improvement (but just so I'm not misunderstood, the current /list was also a vast improvement over no lists at all).

Any such "randomness, not staring at your screen endlessly" system would address all the concerns you listed and more.

[Taiku]

I think either the system Izmael has proposed (/list to join the item group), the system I proposed (/list to win the rights to kill the item mob for 10 minutes), or any other system that relies on "luck and patience" (ie. playing EverQuest) as opposed to not sleeping and clicking unclassic boxes, will be a vast improvement (but just so I'm not misunderstood, the current /list was also a vast improvement over no lists at all).

Any such "randomness, not staring at your screen endlessly" system would address all the concerns you listed and more.

Yeah for sure, I guess what I meant by a better solution was, a better solution implemented by the staff, there seems to be a lot of good suggestions on how to handle it a bit better, though I am curious if the p99 staff are even considering different routes to take with it or if they'll just leave it how it is, and if people actually want the item, that's just the price they have to pay to maybe get it.

By how people berate the staff and complain about this server I feel like they maybe feel it's a proper punishment!

I'm not quite sure how the /list system works as far as other non heavily contested, non legacy camps, can you /list at the AC in OOT and such? I think I would take some exception to a /list system that allowed someone to come claim a random chance to kill a mob someone had been previously camping for multiple hours. Sorry if I'm totally mistaken on how this works!

[loramin]

Yeah for sure, I guess what I meant by a better solution was, a better solution implemented by the staff, there seems to be a lot of good suggestions on how to handle it a bit better, though I am curious if the p99 staff are even considering different routes to take with it or if they'll just leave it how it is, and if people actually want the item, that's just the price they have to pay to maybe get it.

The staff here is ... cagey. Their style is not to post a thread saying "hey guys, we hear you have problems with /list, how could it be better?"

And you can probably guess why that is, given ...

how people berate the staff and complain about this server I feel like they maybe feel it's a proper punishment!

Thankfully the staff doesn't judge (or punish) the whole server for the actions of a few :) Instead, they just do their thing (in silence), and then spring whatever they feel is best for us on us, whenever they feel like it.

But, at the same time, I wouldn't assume they don't care about how we feel. There is a wealth of evidence to suggest that the staff reads this forum, and given that they do they'd be idiots to look at a good idea and go "yeah that'd be great, but it came from a player so we're not doing that."

To the contrary, I absolutely believe they listen to us ... they just do it very quietly.

I'm not quite sure how the /list system works as far as other non heavily contested, non legacy camps, can you /list at the AC in OOT and such? I think I would take some exception to a /list system that allowed someone to come claim a random chance to kill a mob someone had been previously camping for multiple hours. Sorry if I'm totally mistaken on how this works!

Currently /list is only for legacy mobs on Green, and it's likely to stay that way in the near future. Keep in mind that "automated GMing" is an experiment, and as this thread shows the result of that experiment has not been "we've got the perfect solution" ... yet.

Someday I think it'd be in everyone's interest (staff and players) to implement some form of "automated GMing" to problematic non-legacy NPCs like Hadden and the AC ... but the staff are likely going to keep "dipping their toe in the water" (of automated GMing) a lot more at first before they do that.

[Kich867]

I think either the system Izmael has proposed (/list to join the item group), the system I proposed (/list to win the rights to kill the item mob for 10 minutes), or any other system that relies on "luck and patience" (ie. playing EverQuest) as opposed to not sleeping and clicking unclassic boxes, will be a vast improvement (but just so I'm not misunderstood, the current /list was also a vast improvement over no lists at all).

Any such "randomness, not staring at your screen endlessly" system would address all the concerns you listed and more.

The random person in "group" solution makes a lot of sense but only if your chances of receiving the item increases each time you don't get it. At face value, handing it to someone in the top 6 could mean you never end up receiving it.

[Izmael]

If you're in the top 6 on the list, there's 83 % chance you don't get it awarded when it drops.

The probability of it happening twice in a row is 69 %
3 in a row: 58 %
4 in a row: 48 %
5 in a row: 40 %
6 in a row: 33.5 %
10 in a row: 16 %
15 in a row: 6.5 %
20 in a row: 2.6 %
30 in a row: 0.4 %

Basically it will be fun to listen to these 0.4% stories in RnF.

[loramin]

The random person in "group" solution makes a lot of sense but only if your chances of receiving the item increases each time you don't get it. At face value, handing it to someone in the top 6 could mean you never end up receiving it.

A "guarantee of treasure for those who wait" is something you have to lose to get rid of "endless AFK clicks". You can make the system reward those that wait for an insane time, or you can reward the patient and the lucky (but this means unlucky people might make hundreds of attempts and never get an item).

Which should we have? Well I'd answer that with another question: how many things (outside of lists) in EverQuest do you get by being lucky/patient (and the unlucky get screwed), and how many things do you have guaranteed because you sat somewhere for days without sleeping?

[Phaezed-Reality]

end of welfare pixel era is over, for now. may brad rest easy again.

[fadetree]

there is no way to prevent account sharing of one sort or the other. People will do anything they possibly can to get around any rules or conditions. There is no way to prevent people gaming this feature by substituting other humans behind the char.

[GnomeCaptain]

List is terrible.

Creating a situation in which the only people that win are those that cheat (with account sharing) or stay glued to their screens for 24-48 hours or more (and thus threaten their own lives) is incredibly irresponsible.

And it's about as far from EQ as possible, which is ironic given this project is supposed to be all about recreating classic.

[fadetree]

Well, the only other options are to:
1. allow kill stealing, camp fighting, young lawyering, and mass hysteria to go on willy nilly with no redress.
2. Have a GM spend 100% of their time physically watching the camp.
3. remove all legacy items and be done with it.

There are no good solutions here. There is one sort of less terrible solution, which is the current list system. I probably would have gone with #3. Even the suggestion for changing the list system to a random award of the item is terrible, because bad rng will screw you over, you could have some poot who just got there get the item after you've been waiting 40 hours, plus guilds would overload the list with people to increase chances. It is just not solveable.

[boukk]

-Permanent lockout (no reseting with sever reset either)
-Randomly awarded to top 6-12

[boukk]

I like this idea ... as I like any idea that returns /list to playing EverQuest (ie. luck and patience) instead of playing a non-EQ made-up game (click the box every few minutes).

That being said, I don't think the group thing is necessary at all, and it'd be simpler to just list for a random chance to kill the mob when it spawns. To solve the "people don't kill their own mob" problem, make it so winning /list only gives you a ten minute window to kill: if you fail to do so in that time, /list happens again, giving the mob to someone else.

Again, I'm happy with any "more-EverQuesty" solution (and also, to be clear, /list 1.0 is still far more "EverQuesty" than not having a list at all) ... it's just that among all possible solutions I favor simpler ones over complex ones.

Solo kill fungus king? hmmmm :p

[boukk]

The random person in "group" solution makes a lot of sense but only if your chances of receiving the item increases each time you don't get it. At face value, handing it to someone in the top 6 could mean you never end up receiving it.

Just like any group then, can happen but how likely is it?

[Kohedron]

As janky as it sounds, I actually agree with awarding it randomly to the first 6 in line

[magnetaress]

Sometimes we need to just let bad things happen. In order for the community to grow and mature. Kill stealing should be legal. I guess. Like 99% of the time.

[Gatorsmash]

1- list records your MAC address. This is already shared info when you connect to your IP.

2. Add AHK detection. Not sure why people think ahk stuff happens in fps full loot games and not here but it does and did.

Edit - And for the uninitiated, takes about 15 mins to script AHK to click on a random Box or fill out a field in a window

[Cen]

Finally people like my idea of first 6 random ;D

after half a year

[fishdaemon]

maybe just afk check on the first 3. You can list and not even be online or there. get a notification when you are number 4. When you are 1 - 3 you need to be at camp and do afk checks.

[magnetaress]

maybe just afk check on the first 3. You can list and not even be online or there. get a notification when you are number 4. When you are 1 - 3 you need to be at camp and do afk checks.

The pace at which this world, game, thread crumbles and dies seems to be accelerating.

I am going to be upfront here. List is bad. It's bad for the players. It's bad for the community.

At some point you just need to log off or go do something else. /list encourages and enables the opposite.

Killl stealing is a a better solution. This way terrible niave addicts cannot hide behind /lists. Just let them show their true colors and let the server community sort em all out.

Also.
.
Try red.

[fadetree]

-Permanent lockout (no reseting with sever reset either)
-Randomly awarded to top 6-12

people will just rotate chars, PL them in background if they need to. Random award to top 6-12 is the same problem, everybody has to wait and then #1 is mad that #12 gets it first. Imagine the forum rage. Could make these items LORE NODROP, but that is not even slightly classic.

[loramin]

Solo kill fungus king? hmmmm :p

Yeah, because it's totally possible to solo clear King :rolleyes:

[Haldour]

I actually did /list for the guise, and it wasn't a bad experience at all. I made some server friends and connected with old friends from blue I hadn't seen in a while. now granted I did /list when I was stuck at home and it had the benefit of my wife not murdering me because I wasn't bothering her for a day and a half. Overall I actually found it to be a great solution. Even the manastone with guilds sharing a camp toon, It really supports the community theme Everquest has. There are a ton of items and content that cannot be obtained solo in EQ, its the nature of the game. Can't sock for 3 days for a manastone? join a guild that has a shared character to camp it. To me it's no different than raid gear except you aren't going to be screwed by RNG and never get that class breastplate.

Edit-Edit-I do support the whole 1 drop per toon idea though, socking a bunch of stones away for the future really is not good for the overall server economy

[fadetree]

@haldour - you are obviously a noob here, so I'd like to give you a friendly warning about being reasonable on the forums. This is the Internet, man. We all need to do our part to take extreme hysterical positions on as many things as possible...otherwise the world might start to return to a non-hysterical outlook and THERE WOULD BE NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT EXCEPT REGULAR STUFF. And my god, man, the media would have nothing to report! Do you want restless herds of desperate media schnooks wandering around on the streets and pestering people? Of course not.

[Ivory]

The list should have been cumulative time at a camp dictating your place (like I suggested!) ... which means you could put in a few hours here or there till you rose up the list high enough to finally get it.

This would have been the most fair way of handling things (and not created silly situations where you HAD TO have people tag teaming in with you to camp it for 80+ hours STRAIGHT).

Instead you could have camped whatever you wanted over a month or two.

[Izmael]

The list should have been cumulative time at a camp dictating your place (like I suggested!) ... which means you could put in a few hours here or there till you rose up the list high enough to finally get it.

This would have been the most fair way of handling things (and not created silly situations where you HAD TO have people tag teaming in with you to camp it for 80+ hours STRAIGHT).

Instead you could have camped whatever you wanted over a month or two.

You realize that the neckbeards would always have 10x more accrued time than you anyway, on each of their alts? And you'd get zero shot at the item this way.

[fadetree]

You realize that the neckbeards would always have 10x more accrued time than you anyway, on each of their alts? And you'd get zero shot at the item this way.

That. And how would it work, anyway? So if I 'visit' manastone camp occasionally and build up to 40 hours, say, and that's the highest for people who are trying to get it. However, I'm not at the camp when the next stone drops, what happens? Do I somehow get the stone? If you say well, you have to actually be holding the camp to get your stone, then we're right back to where we were: either standard /list or lots of camp stealing. And, how would time accrue? Do I have to be actively holding down the camp to get hours? Can I just sort of be nearby? If so, how far? You probably mean that you would accrue it for just sitting at the list, but the same kind of problem exists - it puts people in the position of getting a stone they didn't kill for and screwing the guy who actually did kill for it because you had more 'list time'. In fact, you could do nothing but sit in list and get the stone eventually, no actual fight required. It's really kind of an unworkable idea.

There is no way to fix this by tweaking the ruleset. It is literally impossible. Making the all of the items LORE NODROP would sort of work to cut down on the /list account sharing problems, but at the expense of really murdering the classic utility of the item. At that point, we should just remove the items altogether and be done with it.

[Castle2.0]

Same bad ideas rehashed in new threads.

Go read all the old threads first to find out why your "original new FIX /list" idea is bad.

[loramin]

There is no way to fix this by tweaking the ruleset.

/list for a chance to kill the mob: fixes everything as far as I can see.

[sajbert]

This /list system was downright unhealthy, as in actually physically unhealthy.

It promoted account sharing, which isn’t recommended but somehow still allowed despite the obvious issues with it.

It is difficult to do as a person with actual real/life responsibilities.

It could be incredibly streaky. I saw 23 hours between J-boots drops, thus it’s a cointoss each attempt.



Thus, why not just make it so that you EITHER collect points each hour in queue OR that anyone who’s spent 1/5th of the time of the longest listed player gets a chance to roll on the item dropped. I.e. you can actually take a break and do it in segments.

[magnetaress]

This /list system was downright unhealthy, as in actually physically unhealthy.

It promoted account sharing, which isn’t recommended but somehow still allowed despite the obvious issues with it.

It is difficult to do as a person with actual real/life responsibilities.

It could be incredibly streaky. I saw 23 hours between J-boots drops, thus it’s a cointoss each attempt.



Thus, why not just make it so that you EITHER collect points each hour in queue OR that anyone who’s spent 1/5th of the time of the longest listed player gets a chance to roll on the item dropped. I.e. you can actually take a break and do it in segments.

whoever has the most played time should get the loot, veneration, respect your elders, once they loot it blocks them from list for 3 weeks IRL and subtracts a year or something from their played

[Jimjam]

Perhaps P1999 could partner up with some life coaches. When you win a list your account receives a suspension and you get some rehabilitation coaching.

Once your coach has given clearance your suspension is mitigated and you are allowed to access your account for up to 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, with one monthly 5 hour binge 'cheat day'. I'm not a monster.

After a season, all account restrictions will be released, but if you 'win' a list item again, you will require further coaching, with the possibility of being referred to therapy, and much harsher ban restrictions.

Lets not fix list - lets fix people!

[magnetaress]

life coaches voice grafting or gming the mobs in question would be fucking amazing, i got some shit to talk about

[sajbert]

That. And how would it work, anyway? So if I 'visit' manastone camp occasionally and build up to 40 hours, say, and that's the highest for people who are trying to get it. However, I'm not at the camp when the next stone drops, what happens? Do I somehow get the stone? If you say well, you have to actually be holding the camp to get your stone, then we're right back to where we were: either standard /list or lots of camp stealing. And, how would time accrue? Do I have to be actively holding down the camp to get hours? Can I just sort of be nearby? If so, how far? You probably mean that you would accrue it for just sitting at the list, but the same kind of problem exists - it puts people in the position of getting a stone they didn't kill for and screwing the guy who actually did kill for it because you had more 'list time'. In fact, you could do nothing but sit in list and get the stone eventually, no actual fight required. It's really kind of an unworkable idea.

There is no way to fix this by tweaking the ruleset. It is literally impossible. Making the all of the items LORE NODROP would sort of work to cut down on the /list account sharing problems, but at the expense of really murdering the classic utility of the item. At that point, we should just remove the items altogether and be done with it.


No, if you’re not at the camp you don’t get the stone. If you revisit the camp your hours would be saved for when you re-list. Time would accrue as long as you’re on /list and following the already set rules for being on list. The issue of not having to kill a single PH ALREADY exists. Some players just lay in FD snd have their girlfriends click the AFK-boxes.

Making it based on hours camped total over any number of sessions would make the farm more available and at the same time make it less attractive to the super-neckbeards eho could get better pp/hr elsewhere if they have to farm 240hrs for a manastone.

[magnetaress]

No, if you’re not at the camp you don’t get the stone. If you revisit the camp your hours would be saved for when you re-list. Time would accrue as long as you’re on /list and following the already set rules for being on list. The issue of not having to kill a single PH ALREADY exists. Some players just lay in FD snd have their girlfriends click the AFK-boxes.

Making it based on hours camped total over any number of sessions would make the farm more available and at the same time make it less attractive to the super-neckbeards eho could get better pp/hr elsewhere if they have to farm 240hrs for a manastone.

girlfriends, u mean boyfriends, life partners, and questmates

[Izmael]

Perhaps P1999 could partner up with some life coaches. When you win a list your account receives a suspension and you get some rehabilitation coaching.

You can ask the GM's in the petition forum to suspend your accounts.

I've done that in the past. I listed all my accounts and they banned them all for one year from both Blue and Red. It was great, I could get on with my life and achieve stuff.

Toward the end though, like... 9 months in, I started to get a serious itch. I made a level 1 EC toon on a new account and tunnelquested a bunch of plat out of the thin air.

The last few days before the 1 year mark, and therefore unbanning of the accounts, were me literally counting the hours then the minutes before I could access my characters.

[magnetaress]

You can ask the GM's in the petition forum to suspend your accounts.

I've done that in the past. I listed all my accounts and they banned them all for one year from both Blue and Red. It was great, I could get on with my life and achieve stuff.

Toward the end though, like... 9 months in, I started to get a serious itch. I made a level 1 EC toon on a new account and tunnelquested a bunch of plat out of the thin air.

The last few days before the 1 year mark, and therefore unbanning of the accounts, were me literally counting the hours then the minutes before I could access my characters.

Please don't ever tell me to stop posting again. I would very much appreciate that. :o

[loramin]

I'm sorry, I try not to shit on other people's ideas in general, but ...

EVERYONE HERE WANTING TO EARN POINTS IS WRONG!

Look, if you want guaranteed rewards, there are umpteen million other MMOGs out there. EverQuest (at least not the version most people remember) has never been about guaranteed rewards!

The game only has two mechanisms that work that way: faction and plat. Faction on its own is almost completely useless (modulo weird exceptions like Droga faction for the first Chardok ring), and plat ... well mostly plat isn't a guaranteed reward. If you sit and farm Hill Giants or Sea Furies it sort of is, but even then A) it's random how much you get, and B) you won't get much in the grand scheme of things. If you really want to earn plat in classic EQ, you earn items and sell them, and those are not guaranteed.

99% of anything worth having in the game boils down to luck and patience. Want to breathe underwater? Be patient waiting for Hadden, and lucky enough for him to drop the earring. Same thing for fungi tunic, and the same thing for almost all raid gear (there are a few predictable drops, but they're the vast minority).

EverQuest was never about "if I show up enough times I know I'll get handed loot", so it would be incredibly unclassic for any system (list or otherwise) to work that way here.

[Dolalin]

There is no /list that won't be bad somehow. It's the very definition of a least-worst option.

It is the shittiest solution except for all the others that have been tried.

[magnetaress]

I'm sorry, I try not to shit on other people's ideas in general, but ...

EVERYONE HERE WANTING TO EARN POINTS IS WRONG!

Look, if you want guaranteed rewards, there are umpteen million other MMOGs out there. EverQuest (at least not the version most people remember) has never been about guaranteed rewards!

The game only has two mechanisms that work that way: faction and plat. Faction on its own is almost completely useless (modulo weird exceptions like Droga faction for the first Chardok ring), and plat ... well mostly plat isn't a guaranteed reward. If you sit and farm Hill Giants or Sea Furies it sort of is, but even then A) it's random how much you get, and B) you won't get much in the grand scheme of things. If you really want to earn plat in classic EQ, you earn items and sell them, and those are not guaranteed.

99% of anything worth having in the game boils down to luck and patience. Want to breathe underwater? Be patient waiting for Hadden, and lucky enough for him to drop the earring. Same thing for fungi tunic, and the same thing for almost all raid gear (there are a few predictable drops, but they're the vast minority).

EverQuest was never about "if I show up enough times I know I'll get handed loot", so it would be incredibly unclassic for any system (list or otherwise) to work that way here.

tru, but i a wizard could get lucky enough to win a roll on a fungi tunic, and trade that for something else that I wanted, but didn't want to spend months farming

Or I could just spend months hanging around seb and most likely get a fungi tunic, wasn't garanteed, but the gods usually relent

nothing comes easily or readily or in a formuliac way in that regard not unless you have infininite time, which some of us admittidly have (but should not)

also... some melees are better at farming gobs, and some wizards are better at quading specs for plat etc... were as enchanters admitedly can make the most money by hunting high value items, and such, giving people different options, its kinda lame when a lazy enchanter moves in on a melees or priests 'spot' but such is life also in EQ

[loramin]

tru, but i a wizard could get lucky enough to win a roll on a fungi tunic, and trade that for something else that I wanted, but didn't want to spend months farming

Or I could just spend months hanging around seb and most likely get a fungi tunic, wasn't garanteed, but the gods usually relent

nothing comes easily or readily or in a formuliac way in that regard not unless you have infininite time, which some of us admittidly have (but should not)

also... some melees are better at farming gobs, and some wizards are better at quading specs for plat etc... were as enchanters admitedly can make the most money by hunting high value items, and such, giving people different options, its kinda lame when a lazy enchanter moves in on a melees or priests 'spot' but such is life also in EQ

Right, but the core point is, whatever you choose to farm, you progress through patience and luck ... not a guarantee that if you do X number of daily tasks (or AFK checks, or whatever) you get Y reward.

[Izmael]

There is no /list that won't be bad somehow. It's the very definition of a least-worst option.

It is the shittiest solution except for all the others that have been tried.

The only acceptable solution would be for us to be back in 1999 again.

Altavista, Yahoo, AOL, denim jackets and 14" CRT monitors that make a bzzzert noise on power up.

As soon as Sheldon and his friends are done with the computations, we're going there.

[Zephire]

Just my two cents take it with a grain of salt:

The /list system was interesting to say the least but the amount of people who join a /list and FD till they hit #1, or even just to loot their item, was insane.

I think the lockout on the item drops should be permanent per toon. Get the item 1ce and move on or level another toon to farm.

1-This allows equal opportunity to the coveted loot (which I think is the whole purpose of the /list system)

2- This prevents people from hoarding the items and messing up the economy before it is even started (too late to an extent)

3-Makes the account sharing a mute point because once each toon has the item they will be unable to farm the camp again on that toon. (this promotes more alt leveling and could help noobs find groups in soon to be empty zones)

4- Anyone wanting to collect the "Lion's Share" as it was put can level multiple toons and do so while the casual gamers don't have to lose a camp to the same toon multiple times.

I like this idea!

[mickey_mcfly]

I think the list system is honestly mostly fine, and absolutely better than most alternatives.

One thing that could be improved is that right now there is an incentive to train list camps. If you’re a caster blind outside the dungeon you will make it back in time. If you are a melee you probably will not.

I think if you die in a list area you should have like 60-90 minutes to get back to the list area. Once you get back this extra time would reset to normal.

[phr0stbyt3]

I like the idea of a time accrual camp with everything set to lore. That way even the account sharers can get first dibs, but not camp the items until they stop dropping. The current implementation was certainly better than investing actual manpower due to lack of an army of guides/GM, but I think it just created a theme-park-like attraction where I was pretending to have a fun "classic experience".

However...
Why not just put the classic items on vendors with cooldowns? I.e. one person can buy one every 6/8/10/12 hours for jboots/rubi/guise/manastone, make them lore until a certain point in time like when/if green merges with blue, and make them 2.5k/5k/7.5k/10k. Maybe a /list feature on top of that as well. That way there's still a time and money sink but:
1) nobody has to pretend it's classic when it really isn't
2) there's much more opportunity to get the item you want without resenting the /list feature when you can't share your account with someone
3) the grind for money creates a much more vibrant economy and rewarding environment for everyone on the server instead of just sitting around idle waiting for an item we know is going to stop dropping
4) making these items actually cost money mandates that you have a vested interest in the game instead of just a free-for-all entitlement system where you can /AFK and /hide or bard invis the entire time until your number comes up.

Yes these items were heavily camped by the top guilds in classic, but EVERYONE had the advantage of hindsight knowing these would stop dropping. I don't see a way to recreate the actual classic experience when we know ahead of time what the future holds.

[magnetaress]

I like the idea of a time accrual camp with everything set to lore. That way even the account sharers can get first dibs, but not camp the items until they stop dropping. The current implementation was certainly better than investing actual manpower due to lack of an army of guides/GM, but I think it just created a theme-park-like attraction where I was pretending to have a fun "classic experience".

However...
Why not just put the classic items on vendors with cooldowns? I.e. one person can buy one every 6/8/10/12 hours for jboots/rubi/guise/manastone, make them lore until a certain point in time like when/if green merges with blue, and make them 2.5k/5k/7.5k/10k. Maybe a /list feature on top of that as well. That way there's still a time and money sink but:
1) nobody has to pretend it's classic when it really isn't
2) there's much more opportunity to get the item you want without resenting the /list feature when you can't share your account with someone
3) the grind for money creates a much more vibrant economy and rewarding environment for everyone on the server instead of just sitting around idle waiting for an item we know is going to stop dropping
4) making these items actually cost money mandates that you have a vested interest in the game instead of just a free-for-all entitlement system where you can /AFK and /hide or bard invis the entire time until your number comes up.

Yes these items were heavily camped by the top guilds in classic, but EVERYONE had the advantage of hindsight knowing these would stop dropping. I don't see a way to recreate the actual classic experience when we know ahead of time what the future holds.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ that is exactly how wow got 250million subscribers, in theory its' 'fair' 'balanced' and decreases the suicide rate of the addicted gamblers and the people who farm for irl pizza dough

but it ruins the life of the game and the drama of people interacting with each other....

the alternative is to have dedicated GMs drop thy bannhamer at any camp where there is no RP - sadly - people need guidance, the flock will just lemming right over a cliff otherwise

[phr0stbyt3]

^^^^^^^^^^^^ that is exactly how wow got 250million subscribers, in theory its' 'fair' 'balanced' and decreases the suicide rate of the addicted gamblers and the people who farm for irl pizza dough

but it ruins the life of the game and the drama of people interacting with each other....

the alternative is to have dedicated GMs drop thy bannhamer at any camp where there is no RP - sadly - people need guidance, the flock will just lemming right over a cliff otherwise

Did you participate in any of the lists? I would argue the "life" of the game at one of those camps was completely gone. Making them available at vendors would add value to other parts of the game, but the lists themselves are silly theme park experiences to me. I would equate it to watching hours of Disneyland streamers go on rides, then going to the themepark yourself only to wait in line for 6 hours to enjoy a 30 second ride. Oh, it's also going to cost you $500 to get in the gates.

[magnetaress]

Did you participate in any of the lists? I would argue the "life" of the game at one of those camps was completely gone. Making them available at vendors would add value to other parts of the game, but the lists themselves are silly theme park experiences to me. I would equate it to watching hours of Disneyland streamers go on rides, then going to the themepark yourself only to wait in line for 6 hours to enjoy a 30 second ride. Oh, it's also going to cost you $500 to get in the gates.

No, I don't have 40 hrs to sit infront of a camp.... lol despite having no life, no friends, and being always afk.

That said I made some great forumposts while everyone was /listing and my elf karma increased.

Look - everyone gets a participation 'point' in wow for just showing up. Essentially, and loot is autorolled at this point. It's even like actually pretty hard to circumvent and I played in a guild... where we attempted to do guild runs, but its hard to field players because the common denominator (people like me) aint got time for being #1 guild on the box *** Or even good enough at the game to do a 'heroic****. And those guilds burn out FAST, that is more of a social game for a group of like 10 people who like managing 40 other peoples personalities.

Perhaps I can't understand the fun in it, but I dont want to log in and acrue points. I want to log in and just dream of a time when I will eventualy get a bone razor, don't give a flip about a ragebringer, nawmean? Actually stilleto of the bloodclaw has a proc, and obsidian dagger looks prettier )

So, it's hard for me to fathom what people are going through. I did it once, when I was in the military I would stahy up to 4am earning dkp with my guildies, BUTTTTTTT here's the big caveat, even back then that DKP wasn't anything I cared about, I just showed up on my cleric /healed and tried to hit on the thots (back when I was still a juvanile virile male). It's human nature I guess, but I wasn't trhying to earn specific gear... I just spent DKP when I had enough and something 'cool' looking dropped. I was friends with a cool mage bro who did farm DKP for specific items and they were super serious about raid times and encouraged me to be their #2 wingman at the time.

Such is life.

Don't get bent over a broken 30 yr old pixel, this game still has a lot of charm even if you've seen it all if we can take a step back from all this 'lets balance', 'make fair', 'need rotations', '/list', /accrued time on accounts at camp shenanagainz

If u are mad, I am sorry my intent isn't to troll, I am just spewing rainbow puke stream of conciousness...

https://i.imgur.com/WlcGHNw.gif

Bress Brell
Brad Bless

And if I could go back in time and change everything I would make babies with that cool mage bro and be a server mom.\

Yikes I need help, not pickles.

[phr0stbyt3]

And if I could go back in time and change everything I would make babies with that cool mage bro and be a server mom.\

Yikes I need help, not pickles.

Gotcha... Sounds like we agree on some things. My biggest criticism is of the manastone camp where it was not lore AND a rare drop rate on a 38 minute spawn. It is physically impossible for one single person to wait 80 hours to obtain that, and encourages enlisting mechanics that operate in grey rule areas and violate the classic EQ experience anyway. Might as well just put it on a vendor, and/or make it 100% drop rate every 2 hours with account-lore, or item lore at the very least. I don't necessarily want it to be easier, hence my suggestion for a 10kpp price tag. Heck, make it a quest for all I care. A complete redesign of the camp would work too, but the /list on this camp specifically is not classic at all.

[magnetaress]

Lore would have been an excellent step in the right direction with that camp for sure. Thx )

I guess for certain specific items, you really have a totally valid point. I shouldn't godzilla u.

[phr0stbyt3]

Lore would have been an excellent step in the right direction with that camp for sure. Thx )

I guess for certain specific items, you really have a totally valid point. I shouldn't godzilla u.

I'm immune to that anyway :p

[Jimjam]

When was the lore mechanic introduced? Was it in from day 1?

[Izmael]

What lore mechanic? I have an original manastone on live, it's over 20 years old. It's not lore, it's exactly how it is here on P99.

[Jimjam]

You know that mechanic that makes it so you can only have one copy of some items in inventory / banked?

I was wondering if it came in around the time of the Temple Sol Ro armor. I remember the 'Lore Pending' tag on Shralok Packs and other items, which suggests to me that perhaps at some point there may not have been a 'lore' mechanic in game.

[Izmael]

Oh I thought you meant making legacy items lore (that wouldn't change anything, people would just put them on mules, just like they do with beads or lockets etc).

Anyway, just to sum up - I think the current way of handling thing is a great compromise between all factors. Just add the random award to first 6 on the list and it will be perfect. Maybe test it on an existing Blue camp for a bit before Kunark hits on Green.

What current Blue items/camps would be good candidates for a quick test? Scout Charisa comes to mind but it's not really and item camp, or a camp at all really.

[magnetaress]

Oh I thought you meant making legacy items lore (that wouldn't change anything, people would just put them on mules, just like they do with beads or lockets etc).

Anyway, just to sum up - I think the current way of handling thing is a great compromise between all factors. Just add the random award to first 6 on the list and it will be perfect. Maybe test it on an existing Blue camp for a bit before Kunark hits on Green.

What current Blue items/camps would be good candidates for a quick test? Scout Charisa comes to mind but it's not really and item camp, or a camp at all really.

1 per account, 1 account per person. Per SSN. 1 Character.

ironically 1 character forum account is already best practice, its a bannable offense over at takp to have multiple forum accounts.

FYI: this is my only forum account all the rest were banned

don't be *EXPLETIVES*

[magnetaress]

You know that mechanic that makes it so you can only have one copy of some items in inventory / banked?

I was wondering if it came in around the time of the Temple Sol Ro armor. I remember the 'Lore Pending' tag on Shralok Packs and other items, which suggests to me that perhaps at some point there may not have been a 'lore' mechanic in game.

I think if it was in it was rarely seen, yeah there is a lot of non classic stuff here...

There should be a server that never goes past week 2 or w/e

I use tog in and train the entire newbie zones to the guards to loot up, i made about 10p per hr this way on my newbie characters I dont think guards should gank the mob (poof) if the guard gets the kill the corpse should be locked and everyone should have a chance at the loot, no exp, if u do 50% dmg the killl should be urs

No LORE

No NO DROP

No Trivial loot code

KSing should be legal, people should be able to mez steel and wiz nuke

Seriously its great that blue/green/red (sorta) have rules, and they try to follow a pnP

There is room for a wild wild west server tho.

also wiz nukes got nerfed, right at the end of beta, b4 live, but they should be unerffed and wizards should have their full potential unocked

[Polkan]

I've been reading the whole post and the different ideas made me think about this:
- Every character gets a counter for each different list.

- /list command forms a group with the first 6 players in the list.

- Every hour spent by a player in the group gives him a positive amount of points to his counter. Players not in the group get a lower amount of points each hour. Dunno if it's possible to make ungrouped players earn points by assisting in each kill of mobs spawned in that camp.

- When the item drops, it is randomly assigned to one of these 6 players and he is removed both from list and group. He also gets a huge negative amount of points to his counter. The next player in the list is added to the group.

- AFK checks are be only applied to the group, and a /voteafk command can be created for them to use with players that don't contribute towards the goal. If 3 players use the command for the same member and he also skips an AFK check, he is automatically thrown out from the group and assigned a negative amount of points. The same happens if all the 5 players use the command against the 6th member or if a player skips two AFK checks in a row.

- When a player joins a list, it adjusts the positions of every player in it according to the points every player has in their counter.

- Every hour spent online without using the /list command for any camp will decrease the negative score until reaching 0.

Hope at least this helps somebody else to come up with new ideas to tackle this issue.

[magnetaress]

I've been reading the whole post and the different ideas made me think about this:
- Every character gets a counter for each different list.

- /list command forms a group with the first 6 players in the list.

- Every hour spent by a player in the group gives him a positive amount of points to his counter. Players not in the group get a lower amount of points each hour. Dunno if it's possible to make ungrouped players earn points by assisting in each kill of mobs spawned in that camp.

- When the item drops, it is randomly assigned to one of these 6 players and he is removed both from list and group. He also gets a huge negative amount of points to his counter. The next player in the list is added to the group.

- AFK checks are be only applied to the group, and a /voteafk command can be created for them to use with players that don't contribute towards the goal. If 3 players use the command for the same member and he also skips an AFK check, he is automatically thrown out from the group and assigned a negative amount of points. The same happens if all the 5 players use the command against the 6th member or if a player skips two AFK checks in a row.

- When a player joins a list, it adjusts the positions of every player in it according to the points every player has in their counter.

- Every hour spent online without using the /list command for any camp will decrease the negative score until reaching 0.

Hope at least this helps somebody else to come up with new ideas to tackle this issue.

Great so now all uneed is 5 friends or to box 6 toons and u can permanently sit at a camp and acrue negative points indefinatley vote afk anyone who doesn't send pizza.

No thanks, dude you are clearly an exploitive creep

[Polkan]

Thought it was obvious that such situation can be easily handled by any GM checking the logs.

What I didn't expect is anybody to be so screwed up to get such read from my intentions for writing that post. Guess you have quite a lot of information about who I am and which my motivations are.

[magnetaress]

your code tag is so broken it runs off the edge of the screen, there is no way those rules you made cant be gamed

look you are right and i made an assumption about you being a creep and I ignorantly jumped down your throat.

but given the context of the board and the game and the issue at question, i do not believe u are coming up with a new version of /list in good faith even with such glaringly to me, obvious flaws

i am sorta not really sorry --- and its not even about the /list issues or the fact that i havent bothered camping a manastone ever

i say put em on an item vendor and let people trade dragon loot for manastonepoints and grind faction with a new continent to get a manastone

[Donkey Hotay]

You guys are kidding yourselves if you think the /list system wasn't implemented merely to:
A. Keep one guild (of donators) from blocking other guilds (of donators) from getting rare items, causing the lesser guilds to donate less
B. Keep random redditors who discovered Green interested by presenting the system as benefiting the little guy, so said redditors will donate (which they love to do for all their pet causes).

If the /list system sees any changes, it will be based on maximizing donations and not on equal chance loot distribution. HTH.

[Lostfaction]

Rule Idea: You can not go over 1 hour without being on combat logs for any PH or mob or you're booted from list.


Though depending on the number of people and dedication I guess they could try to burn and block someone from logs. Thoughts?

[cd288]

You guys are kidding yourselves if you think the /list system wasn't implemented merely to:
A. Keep one guild (of donators) from blocking other guilds (of donators) from getting rare items, causing the lesser guilds to donate less
B. Keep random redditors who discovered Green interested by presenting the system as benefiting the little guy, so said redditors will donate (which they love to do for all their pet causes).

If the /list system sees any changes, it will be based on maximizing donations and not on equal chance loot distribution. HTH.

This is a weird take

[Donkey Hotay]

Is it any weirder than another rambling thread with ideas that should be implemented but won't be and aren't discussed at all by anyone making the rules? Yet another thread that will be ignored on forums where they don't even announce that they pulled the rare items (choosing Discord instead to inform donators)?

C'mon, dude. We're in a containment ward.

[cd288]

Is it any weirder than another rambling thread with ideas that should be implemented but won't be and aren't discussed at all by anyone making the rules? Yet another thread that will be ignored on forums where they don't even announce that they pulled the rare items (choosing Discord instead to inform donators)?

C'mon, dude. We're in a containment ward.

Not sure how that’s relevant

[Donkey Hotay]

It's relevant because there's apparently an abstraction layer between those discussing the game they're playing and how to improve systems that are not working as the persons discussing it are expecting them to work and those who are creating and implementing those systems. I'm speculating as to why that abstraction layer exists. As to why you're calling that weird or whatever, I can only make uncomplimentary guesses.

If you were running your server for reasons and motivations that the persons on your forums would disagree with and probably be disillusioned by, you would ignore your forums and let those people talk themselves into apathy.

[Donkey Hotay]

Before I subside back into another apathetic episode, I will expand a bit on what I have observed. When Green was announced, the forums were feverish with excitement and the certainty that everything would be just as it was in 1999 because that was what the forums were certain the staff strove for. Instead, mob spawns were varied. Quest xp was custom nerfed. A new /list system that no one on forums would have imagined was even a possible option because of how blatantly it violated the zeitgeist's conception of P99 was announced without any input whatever.
Now, did the forums pause? Did they ask themselves, wait, why are these custom changes occurring without any input from the forum community? No. Instead, they adopted cognitive dissonance and began analyzing these systems and their motivations from the exact argumentative positions that should have negated those systems from the outset.
Ergo, the forums are pointless. They serve no function as discussion except whatever relief you or I might have from typing to each other. P99 as a project is not influenced by these forums. It is, however, influenced by something and that something dictated these custom systems and a closed-door policy with regards to their creation.

[gherron]

Why can’t we just make some or all of these premium items lore/no drop? Some of the prices I’ve seen are just outrageous.

[Izmael]

There's little probability Rogean will redo code that already works perfectly. I hope he doesn't. Don't fix what's not broke.

So suggesting things that have 0% probability of being implemented is a waste of time. Things like "have to tag a PH in the last hour", fall into this category. This ain't happening because Rogean will read it, his neural nets will immediately subconciously process the inputt into the mountain of work and potential bugs/exploits that doing something like that involves, and his brain will immediately issue a "lol, no" verdict. The he will move on to something else.

It has to be someting simple, that doesn't change the existing system fundamentally but improves it.
Like random to top 6 intead of #1. Probably under 5 lines of code to change/add and little room for bugs.

[BlackBellamy]

The amount of staff time dedicated to curating /list issues and solving problems for the tiny portion of the population that actually engaged with that list seemed to show clearly that for a vocal portion of the player base no amount of changes would bring about a desired solution that was acceptable to all or even most of those who continuously raised such issues and that continuing to pay even the smallest amount of attention to the terrible whining associated with rare legacy loot distribution schemes would ultimately drain valuable resources which could be more efficiently allocated towards improving other various functionality for a more robust net effect on the ROI and which would have an overall positive effect on both the community and the staff efficiency and would be a better allocation of scarce resources rightly associated with a volunteer staffing arrangement that is the core of this project's support structure and development program.

/points at whiteboard
/looks around