It is time.

[magnetaress]

For both a new thread and the project to move in a more classic direction:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23162

I distinctly remember needing zings swinging a rusty2h.

Make it happen. You have all the info you need in the linked thread. It will make some of these people, including me really happy, and I think it's important to move the project in more classic direction to differentiate it from RoZ when you roll out red 2.0 guildwars.

Thanks for taking the time to investigate and look into these things.

/pras blue, green, and red99.

[Bardp1999]

There is something with Titanium where coding in Stamina in a classic fashion is just not possible. I believe they tried several ways to get it working and at some point just gave up because it goes against so much of the Titanium code.

[magnetaress]

Can we do it in an almost but not quite classic way though? That doesn't steamroll into titaniums limitations?

[Kich867]

There is something with Titanium where coding in Stamina in a classic fashion is just not possible. I believe they tried several ways to get it working and at some point just gave up because it goes against so much of the Titanium code.

I would believe that the devs see this as a low priority implementation long before I believe "it's too complicated". Jumping consumes stamina in a consistent manner, the functionality exists.

Either they don't want to or they won't until they have more concrete evidence as to what the numbers actually were. Reading those and other threads clearly indicate that attacking used to consume stamina at a rate based on your weapon weight per-attack, all of those parameters are surely able to be provided to the combat code.

[Sunderfury]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89&highlight=Endurance+Questions&page=2

Seems like Secrets is the person to talk to about a work around based on this thread.

[Zekayy]

Sounds like we should move onto another client then if things cant be fixed that are classic and cant be fixed due to the client. p99 has moved on one client before they can move to another again most servers use RoF or their own custom one.

[Mblake81]

Let's talk about Stamina! -by Nilbog (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23162)

Stamina bar is classic! Endurance bar is... non-classic.

Why is stamina not frequently discussed?

Has it been forgotten? It used to have a strong effect on daily gameplay.

-while swimming, you lost stamina
-swinging your weapons, you lost stamina based on their weight
-"zing" spells, invigor etc had a use
-having 100stamina was important, as it negated a minor stat/attack speed reduction
-jumping should consume like 10% of your bar with each jump

Run out of stamina? Not good.. you walk slower and can't jump.


This will become more relevant with Kunark weapons.. because they were heavy.

i.e. Wurmslayer's good stats and damage should be negated by the fact it weighs 15lbs.

Does anyone remember a good weapon weight ratio? What weapons could you swing and not have to worry about stamina? When did weight become a problem, 5lbs, 8lbs?

Discuss.

Stamina/endurance doesn't work properly
(https://wiki.project1999.com/Non-Classic_Compendium)
Stamina/endurance was changed to work differently in EverQuest after the classic period, and the Titanium client assumes that that change has happened. As a result it is difficult (impossible?) to re-create truly classic stamina/endurance behavior with the Titanium client.

[Kich867]

Sounds like we should move onto another client then if things cant be fixed that are classic and cant be fixed due to the client. p99 has moved on one client before they can move to another again most servers use RoF or their own custom one.

I'd be real interested to know why it couldn't be solved using this client if jumping works already. If Stamina at this point in time is some number greater than 100 then you can just handle the "fatigue" hits as a percentage of your total stamina to simulate it and convert stamina regeneration to also behave as a percentage of your total stamina.

[Jauna]

i dont see a point
wont be long before kunark comes along with .1 weight weapons all over the place and the 10+ weight weapons still wont get used

maybe irl or something wear weighted clothing and do 5 jumping jacks every time you auto attack to simulate going up hill both ways in the snow to fuck off or something

[Secrets]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89&highlight=Endurance+Questions&page=2

Seems like Secrets is the person to talk to about a work around based on this thread.

God damn I forgot I wrote that. I was literally researching it over again today

FUCK

[Mblake81]

The Phara Dar crown (https://wiki.project1999.com/Crown_of_Rile) is supposed to be top tier melee item.

[Jimjam]

i dont see a point
wont be long before kunark comes along with .1 weight weapons all over the place and the 10+ weight weapons still wont get used

maybe irl or something wear weighted clothing and do 5 jumping jacks every time you auto attack to simulate going up hill both ways in the snow to fuck off or something

Will be good to have something in place for green2.

Perhaps we can make a formula of estimated stamina loss based on swingrate/weight and trick the client into thinking it jumped the equivalent number of times, and once it runs out activate a reverse 100 hands effect.

I don't know what I'm talking about.

Sounds like a lot of difficult work.

[Secrets]

I think the only questions I have remaining are:
1) How much was the attack speed slow from being fatigued? When did the fatigue slow kick in?
2) If you're over 100 stamina, do you get attack speed slowed? I'm having a hard time believing people had sub-100 strength on tanks in Classic-Velious era

[Secrets]

sub-100 strength on tanks in Classic-Velious era

sorry, this should read stamina.

[Sunderfury]

I think the only questions I have remaining are:
1) How much was the attack speed slow from being fatigued? When did the fatigue slow kick in?
2) If you're over 100 stamina, do you get attack speed slowed? I'm having a hard time believing people had sub-100 sta on tanks in Classic-Velious era

Some answers spread in this thread with links:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283610&highlight=stamina

One link regarding the stamina only affecting jump ability if STA = 100+:
http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-2620.html

Palarran
07-28-2003, 07:59 AM
100 seems to be one of several "important" points in a stat. Around 100 cha (varies slightly) you'll get the best prices from indifferent vendors; at 100 stamina fatigue affects nothing except your ability to jump;

There is some anecdotal evidence on slowing the attack speed but I don't think a percentage was ever said. What's interesting, is I believe in classic any slow negated all haste effects. So it could be possible if you had only 10% slow effect on you, all your haste items + buffs would not take effect making it appear a greater slow than it could be?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/stamina|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/cU9TsQJAuEo/PgjukFbKC1YJ

I just logged on a new char, 100 sta, jumped until stamina bar drained
and checked stats, no change. Deleted him and made a 75 sta, jumped
and when bar ran out suffered -10 to sta, dex and agi. I tried
fighting a few battles with each to test slowing in battle, but I
couldn't see anything noticeable either way. I do know with my
Barbarian Warrior, 105 sta, I have never noticed any slowing from sta
running out, even after very long overpulls where bar is empty for a
long time.

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?8666-Idiots-Guide-to-the-Iksar-Monk-1-55
Stamina (sta)- This stat affects a few things. First of all it has a direct relationship to how many hit points you have. In addition to this it affects the yellow bar below your health. If you have under 100 stamina and this bar runs out (which can happen with heavy weapons, lack of food, being overweight, etc) you will lose other stats and be slowed (ie. Swing your weapon less times per second). Seeing as how this is true I would definitely try to get this stat over 100, if not put all your points into stamina.

In the end, I think the effects of stamina drain were more of an urban legend on what really happened, where basically as you were at 100 stamina you only couldn't jump but people always feared it affected damage so asked for zings?

[magnetaress]

i dont see a point
wont be long before kunark comes along with .1 weight weapons all over the place and the 10+ weight weapons still wont get used

maybe irl or something wear weighted clothing and do 5 jumping jacks every time you auto attack to simulate going up hill both ways in the snow to fuck off or something

Because people like me actually deliberately roll sub-optimal stats on purpose and equip the worst gear on purpose and actually play like that just to watch how it affects the game and have fun making the group work harder on purpose. Also, max CHA on a warrior is important, got to sell those lightstones at 9.98gp.

The Phara Dar crown (https://wiki.project1999.com/Crown_of_Rile) is supposed to be top tier melee item.

Also because of this ^^^^^^^^^

And

@ all the devs, gms, and generally cool people actually looking at this:

https://i.imgur.com/spiuQHf.gif

Thanks, its awesome just knowing it was thought about.

[strongNpretty]

Would love for stamina to work correctly.. Really does become a game changer...

[sacman08]

I mean for Stamina to work classic it should be just like the mana bar. Which means melee and do’s would stop swinging their weapons after they run out. Can you imagine doing a mob and the tank runs out of stamina and now it turns on the casters and healers? Much more wipes, more deaths, less fun. Considering the level grind already I don’t think it’s necessary to change this.

[loramin]

Much more wipes, more deaths, less fun.

I was with you on the first two, but when you got to that last one ... you do know you could have less deaths/more "fun" playing WoW ... right?

To me the constant thread of death is a huge part of what makes this place appealing, and even with that aside, just forcing groups to think more and auto-play yes sounds awesome to me.

[sacman08]

I was with you on the first two, but when you got to that last one ... you do know you could have less deaths/more "fun" playing WoW ... right?.

Lorain, true enough. I should clarify with unnecessarily more death. Death due to learning how to raid or just bad situations is EQ. Adding more death because the tank stops swinging his weapon and can’t taunt due to STA loss (which is like them going LD all the time) would be less fun.

[Mblake81]

Lorain, true enough. I should clarify with unnecessarily more death. Death due to learning how to raid or just bad situations is EQ. Adding more death because the tank stops swinging his weapon and can’t taunt due to STA loss (which is like them going LD all the time) would be less fun.

He doesn't stop swinging. 5 classes get zing spells including two of the holy trinity. I remember asking for Acumen from the guild shaman when xping in sebilis.

Acumen (https://wiki.project1999.com/Acumen)

Grants your target a quickness of mind and body, allowing them improved night vision, the ability to see invisible creatures, and greatly increased stamina regeneration.

[magnetaress]

I personally feel like classic stamina will just bring a few clickies and spell gems back into use. Most people above lvl 10 are grouping on warriors, rangers, rogues, monks, paladins, etc. Those that aren't are twinked enough it will make no difference other then they will have to consider their gears stats slightly more, and whether they will yaulp or not yaulp.

It is a great way to make the servers more classic in light of the necessary changes that were made to recharging, and the soulfire, etc... And as many Emu communities are catching up to p99. I think it will also help set p99 apart some from the rest of the crowd. When it comes to choice.

[sacman08]

He doesn't stop swinging. 5 classes get zing spells including two of the holy trinity. I remember asking for Acumen from the guild shaman when xping in sebilis.

Acumen (https://wiki.project1999.com/Acumen)

Acumen at level 56. That’s like an enchanter get breeze at 56.
Maybe there are other ones that do better. The only one I recall that would be useful is the bard songs Jaxan’s Jig until Cantana of Soothing.
My point is the game would change so much that P99 wouldn’t be EQ circa 1999 anymore, it would be something else.
Also if you want example of a game that tried this good old Star Wars Galaxies did it with the combat refresh patch and we all know that game went downhill after that.

[Mblake81]

Acumen at level 56. That’s like an enchanter get breeze at 56.
Maybe there are other ones that do better. The only one I recall that would be useful is the bard songs Jaxan’s Jig until Cantana of Soothing.
My point is the game would change so much that P99 wouldn’t be EQ circa 1999 anymore, it would be something else.
Also if you want example of a game that tried this good old Star Wars Galaxies did it with the combat refresh patch and we all know that game went downhill after that.

I don't comprehend, 1999 had this.

[Mblake81]

Invigor (https://wiki.project1999.com/Invigor)

Cleric - Level 9
Paladin - Level 22
Ranger - Level 30
Druid - Level 14
Shaman - Level 24
Enchanter - Level 24

Extinguish Fatigue (https://wiki.project1999.com/Extinguish_Fatigue)

Cleric - Level 19
Ranger - Level 52 (kunark)
Druid - Level 29
Shaman - Level 39
Enchanter - Level 44

[sacman08]

Invigor does 35 points of Stamina, Extinguish does 90. Compared to cleric Healing at 14 for up to 100 points and Greater Healing at 24 For up to 270. I don’t see any other spells for cleric to do more.
Stats on a poorly geared warrior at 14 has 320 stamina to restore, at higher levels it’s on par with HP or Mana depending on class. 1000 stamina means casting Extinguish 10 plus times to restore stamina.
Without custom spells to up stamina restoration It wouldn’t be feasible to have to restore stamina as well as health.

[magnetaress]

I remember invigor restoring like a bar at 14. So we just figure out what 10% is and give it the best we can closest to classic. It's more classic then infinity stamina.

[Danth]

Invigor does 35 points of Stamina, Extinguish does 90. Compared to cleric Healing at 14 for up to 100 points and Greater Healing at 24 For up to 270. I don’t see any other spells for cleric to do more.
Stats on a poorly geared warrior at 14 has 320 stamina to restore, at higher levels it’s on par with HP or Mana depending on class. 1000 stamina means casting Extinguish 10 plus times to restore stamina.
Without custom spells to up stamina restoration It wouldn’t be feasible to have to restore stamina as well as health.

This guy either doesn't remember or never played classic. Original stamina bar was effectively a fixed value (call it a 100 point percentage system). It did not get bigger with levels/gear like your "endurance" bar does. This difference is one of the historic sticking points that has been preventing P99 from replicating the classic system accurately. I'd like a working stamina bar as much as anyone else but I temper that with memories of past attempts on here. P99's past attempts at replicating the yellow bar functionality were overdone and broken to the point of absurdity and they never did get the invigor-type spells working decently.

Danth

[Danth]

Sounds like we should move onto another client then if things cant be fixed that are classic and cant be fixed due to the client. p99 has moved on one client before they can move to another again most servers use RoF or their own custom one.

P1999 has used Titanium since day 1, and beta before. It allowed some other clients at various times, but Titanium has been the primary client since the start. That has never changed.

[Mblake81]

This guy either doesn't remember or never played classic. Original stamina bar was effectively a fixed value (call it a 100 point percentage system). It did not get bigger with levels/gear like your "endurance" bar does. This difference is one of the historic sticking points that has been preventing P99 from replicating the classic system accurately. I'd like a working stamina bar as much as anyone else but I temper that with memories of past attempts on here. P99's past attempts at replicating the yellow bar functionality were overdone and broken to the point of absurdity and they never did get the invigor-type spells working decently.

Danth

Good post.

Acumen was like clarity for stamina iirc.

[Evets]

Arent Warriors and other melee classes already grossly underpowered? Granted they already suck at soloing.. but this would cripple them wouldn't it?

[Secrets]

Technically you could easily implement stamina values, even with endurance being in instead. Wouldn't even need a client hack/change for anything beyond stat reductions, sinking to the bottom of the lake when you're out of endurance, etc.

Take the total endurance and turn it into the percentage value you need to simulate classic. The client does its own endurance calculations in Titanium, but the variable is pretty much the same across the board. Send the value of endurance you need based on the server's 'percent' representation. Use that percent for server calculations and gains/losses, but send the actual numerical value (not the percent) of the amount you would be missing from the total.

Technically everything would still work if you did that, ie; jumping, as it does already.

[magnetaress]

Arent Warriors and other melee classes already grossly underpowered? Granted they already suck at soloing.. but this would cripple them wouldn't it?

It would hinder newbie warriors, which I think is one of the primary reasons it was changed, because maybe people logged in and saw how hard it was to play a warrior and so went over to wow were warriors had slam, so this was a quick and immediate 'fix' they could implement to stop bleeding customers, and hope said warrior would play for 1 more week and get a group.

It really didn't cripple anyone. It also encouraged min-maxing, but that isn't a problem anymore in my eyes. People are going to play ogres who want the best str stat and stam stat in game. Doesn't matter if elfs need a zing every once in awhile more often.

Technically you could easily implement stamina values, even with endurance being in instead. Wouldn't even need a client hack/change for anything beyond stat reductions, sinking to the bottom of the lake when you're out of endurance, etc.

Take the total endurance and turn it into the percentage value you need to simulate classic. The client does its own endurance calculations in Titanium, but the variable is pretty much the same across the board. Send the value of endurance you need based on the server's 'percent' representation. Use that percent for server calculations and gains/losses, but send the actual numerical value (not the percent) of the amount you would be missing from the total.

Technically everything would still work if you did that, ie; jumping, as it does already.

I am not begging you or rogean to consider implementing it :o

I do agree in theory with your implementation though!

Also, say if invigor only restored like 1 bar ish or 35 points in classic, but here it restores 30% at 60 and that leads to it restoring 500 and so the client thinks it's healed fully at lvl 14 because the percents don't match up, thats fine. It's way cooler then it is now.

IMO let invigor be broken, overpowered, at low lvls till it matches up with the higher level values.

[Mblake81]

Arent Warriors and other melee classes already grossly underpowered? Granted they already suck at soloing.. but this would cripple them wouldn't it?

It certainly crippled them in the original game :o. I am only making this argument because we are talking with people who never played it, only P99 Blue or Green as they were being corrected and took those for fact of what the game is/was. They think these 'changes' are to alter their game.. we have had this discussion many times.

You are looking at the game from the point of view that the Quality of Life changes were the standard. I don't expect a change from the developers, they have already tried. I am just pointing this out to you. Original EQ was not concerned with Min/Max and being uber in its player design. Some classes could, some do here on P99 20years after the fact with all knowledge shared. I think you are given the short end of the stick with this but its complicated.

The Safehouse 02-16-2000, 10:14 AM (https://thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2967-book-of-knowledge-guide-to-soloing)

Stamina is also very important. I'm not talking about the stamina stat, but the stamina bar in the corner. Remember when I said to use lightweight weapons? Well that is because you want your stamina up for a a number of reasons. During your pull, while chasing your MoB after a successful instill doubt, or during a retreat to zone; you will probably be making good use of your jump button (which requires stamina). With heavy weapons and a low stamina, you'll be a dead rogue. So keep an eye on that bar.

Here is an in era level 57 Shadowknight with less than 100 stamina (https://uenaelar.forumauberge.com/htm/us/zoom/index/zoom03.htm). Point is not everyone had full best in slot, a wiki to guide them to the best loots with full spawn times and placeholders or would dedicate the time to camping shit to sell or trade.

that screenshot is from this site (https://uenaelar.forumauberge.com/us_index.htm), you can follow an in era adventure with screenshots that still exists today. In several you can see his stamina bar dropping in a fight.

[magnetaress]

It certainly crippled them in the original game :o. I am only making this argument because we are talking with people who never played it, only P99 Blue or Green as they were being corrected and took those for fact of what the game is/was. They think these 'changes' are to alter their game.. we have had this discussion many times.

You are looking at the game from the point of view that the Quality of Life changes were the standard. I don't expect a change from the developers, they have already tried. I am just pointing this out to you. Original EQ was not concerned with Min/Max and being uber in its player design. Some classes could, some do here on P99 20years after the fact with all knowledge shared. I think you are given the short end of the stick with this but its complicated.

The Safehouse 02-16-2000, 10:14 AM (https://thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/library-read-only/2967-book-of-knowledge-guide-to-soloing)



Here is an in era level 57 Shadowknight with less than 100 stamina (https://uenaelar.forumauberge.com/htm/us/zoom/index/zoom03.htm). Point is not everyone had full best in slot, a wiki to guide them to the best loots with full spawn times and placeholders or would dedicate the time to camping shit to sell or trade.

that screenshot is from this site (https://uenaelar.forumauberge.com/us_index.htm), you can follow an in era adventure with screenshots that still exists today. In several you can see his stamina bar dropping in a fight.

Good find!

[magnetaress]

Wt 2.6 on Mace of the Shadowed Soul and he's got clinging darkness so gtg )

[Jimjam]

Thanks for linking that profile, that was some great nostalgia! I was taken back in time, thinking what awesome gear he had, but then the illusion collapsed and I realised my 52 sk has much better gear, and my nostalgia collapsed and I questioned what my love of eq had become.

He was wearing that guardian armour in some slots though. I might pick up a set of those tasty greaves!

[Mblake81]

Good Find!

Ennewi found it (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284891)

[magnetaress]

Ennewi found it (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=284891)

/pras Ennewi!!!

[magnetaress]

my wiz is decked out in random stuff from the hole at lvl 40 and I think I have fellin into the 'not classic' meme...

Then again, I would be able to dip in and out of groups for an hr at a time if this were 1999 at lvl 40 and people wouldn't notice what gear I didn't have, most people.

[Jimjam]

My monk was wearing bristlesilk armour up to whenever the spiders in thurgadin turned green. So like mid 40s.

No one ever commented cos it had the Velious texture, so looked good despite being cloth AC. Apparently I was doing a fine job, even in City of Mist.

One day I upgraded my cached silks into crystalline silk armour (cured silk but with MR, so twice as good as what I was previously wearing) but had people refusing me groups because I had cloth appearance.

It was quite funny that having good looking equipment was more important to getting groups than being effective. Based on this lesson I ended up getting the sexy red dress from the brothers, and even persuaded my kind friends and colleagues to get me a new one after doing the epic. Thanks Daewen and co <3. Upgraded it to the white one eventually as my monk is a bridezilla of Thule.

[Zekayy]

P1999 has used Titanium since day 1, and beta before. It allowed some other clients at various times, but Titanium has been the primary client since the start. That has never changed.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47664

It did allow other clients yes, but it seems Titanium is the biggest problem, alot of the bugs on this server are client side its time to move on from shitty titanium or allow other clients again.

[Mblake81]

Trilogy client as standard?

https://i.imgur.com/ouflzsX.jpg

[magnetaress]

Trilogy client as standard?

https://i.imgur.com/ouflzsX.jpg

👍

[Zekayy]

Trilogy client as standard?

https://i.imgur.com/ouflzsX.jpg

this

[Zekayy]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47664

It did allow other clients yes, but it seems Titanium is the biggest problem, alot of the bugs on this server are client side its time to move on from shitty titanium or allow other clients again.

[Swish]

That's a lot of work for a volunteer project.

[Evets]

because casters were not OP enough right?

[magnetaress]

That's a lot of work for a volunteer project.
thanks for reminding us plebes

because casters were not OP enough right?

I don't care about 'casters'

[Old_PVP]

Good post.

Acumen was like clarity for stamina iirc.

Shit yeah, I remember asking for acumen all the time. Also not to derail this thread or anything, but what about enchanter illusions? I remember being a chanter in classic and being able to cast illusions on group members.

So many cool tidbits about this game that have been lost to time...