Pandemic screwed essential workers trying to /list

[Trexller]

I work for American Water (water utility) in Pennsylvania.

The Pandemic gave so many players unlimited time to /list for a legacy item.

a little rough math:

10 players on the list when I show up as #11

2 PH spawns per hour

*maybe* a 20% chance for assassin to spawn

*Maybe* a 20% chance for the guise to drop

So if a guise drops say, every other assassin spawn (being generous on drop rate)

That is a minimum of 30 hours straight in 1 sitting for spot #11 to get a mask

(I know that others have been lucky, or not lucky and camped 60 hours)

I have a job considered essential critical and I do not work from home. There is no chance in hell that I will even have an opportunity to /list for this item. I will not ever have 30+ hours to sit in front of my computer.

The Pandemic made all these lists go deep in player count, before the pandemic, players would log off because they had to go do grown up stuff, like work their job.

The Devs made the /list system to make the legacy loot distribution a little more fair.

The Pandemic has turned that fair system AGAINST players who cannot poopsock 30-60 hours.

The /list system has worked well. However something should be done to counter the Pandemic stay at home orders. (i don't have any good ideas aside from increasing spawn and drop rate)

The Pandemic made all these lists go deep in player count, before the pandemic, players would log off because they had to go do grown up stuff, like work their job.


Before the Pandemic, I would have had at least a CHANCE to camp a guise or manastone, but now, because I still have to work, and the rest of you do not, I'm shafted out of the item.

I don't want handouts, I don't even want things changed really, but it needs to be recognized that the Pandemic has caused every list to be 10+ players 24/7 with wait times ranging at a 24 hour minimum to upwards of 60-70 hours.

So maybe someone could come up with a solution, not a handout, a solution to address that players who can work from home, under the stay-at-home order have a MASSIVE advantage over people like me, who work a job considered Essential Critical, to even have half a chance in hell at obtaining a legacy item.

Due to the Pandemic, I have no chance at obtaining legacy items before they are removed.

Enjoy your lives at home if you can, just remember people like me make that life possible. People like me are the reason your electricity and water are still flowing during this public shutdown.

But you, you can have your guise and 8 manastones, sure.

[solleks]

Unemployeds winning eq? Oh no you didn't

[Droxx]

Unemployed players have been winning EQ since 1999. It's classic.

[Maliant]

Quit your job and not profit. But at least you will get legacy items!

[gnomishfirework]

Weak excuses.

I’m working 49 hours this week, /listing the entire time.

You don’t want it badly enough, to be honest.

Can’t believe this guy really complaining about getting a paycheck right now when so many are not.

Priorities bud, but also you weren’t gonna finish a list regardless if a full time job is an impediment.

It’s cool. I’ll sell you a manastone 200k

[Natewest1987]

sorry for the assholes.

[Cen]

.

Same here man.

Nothing we can do.

Also i'm in PA and I do a very similar thing to you.

[Trexller]

Weak excuses.

I’m working 49 hours this week, /listing the entire time.

You don’t want it badly enough, to be honest.

Can’t believe this guy really complaining about getting a paycheck right now when so many are not.

Priorities bud, but also you weren’t gonna finish a list regardless if a full time job is an impediment.

It’s cool. I’ll sell you a manastone 200k

40 hours turned into 50-60 hours when the shit hit the fan because alot of other people were exposed/infected/could not work.

If I had full weekends like I used to, I could probably get to the #1 spot on a list with a little luck.

Im not complaining about getting a paycheck, im getting overtime AND hazard pay.

You totally missed the entire reasoning behind my post.

You can keep your manastone, I know it makes you feel like you did something with your life.

[Tethler]

I have a job considered essential critical and I do not work from home. There is no chance in hell that I will even have an opportunity to /list for this item. I will not ever have 30+ hours to sit in front of my computer.



This is how EQ has always been. The people with more play time get the fun toys. Maybe you'll get one in the next iteration in a few years. Once you retire you'll have all the time in the world to camp whatever you want.

[Darksinga]

Overpopulation is crazy atm.

Need Teal reopened at least temporarily to combat it.

[BlackBellamy]

I love the high population, it's like a nice fresh cup of coffee. You're instantly alert trying to get that rep and upgrade your camp while defending your present one at the same time.

Little elfs be swarming around with their little books yelling about rule 3 paragraph 1 must maintain line of sight to claimed camp meanwhile I'm gathering a nice "jury" to bring to the camp for the final verdict.

You can just straight out buy a manastone and JBoots are available forever, I mean eventually a merchant sells them, so is this entire thing about the Guise? Cause I go by the ass/sup room and there's frequently like 4-5 people on it.

I don't know, set your alarm clock OP?

[Mblake81]

https://i.imgur.com/V1HpgqL.jpg

[loramin]

Y'all have been stockholm-syndromed by this place.

Sure classic EverQuest favored those with more free time. 100% true. But classic Everquest never had the massive mandatory time sinks that P99 has. No one sat waiting in a list for days for an item on live (as I've mentioned, GMs didn't even stay online for more than eight hours). No one stared at a raid boss's spawn point for days, or waited at a zone for days to race for an FTE.

All that is purely Rogean's unclassic way of dealing with different player knowledge vs. live. It's not classic EQ, so stop pretending it is: OP would at least have had a chance in classic EQ.

[solleks]

More classic than classic.

[loramin]

More classic than classic.

Bullshit, it's a different game. One game is made for the most insane 0.01% of the player base, and rewards them the best stuff.

Then there's actual EQ, which gave everyone rewards proportional to the time they put in. Put in more time, get more good stuff: that's how classic EQ worked (not "you must meet a certain 'devotion to P99' time threshold" to get the good stuff).

The only "time thresholds" set in classic EQ came from the most uber raid guilds on the server setting their own membership requirements.

[Castle2.0]

250 people agree that Teal is the answer. Cast your vote to make your voice heard.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353144

[loramin]

250 people agree that Teal is the answer. Cast your vote to make your voice heard.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=353144

I don't :) Maybe I'm feeling contrarian today, and please don't get me wrong, I do think Teal would be an improvement ... but it seems to me Teal addressed the symptom, not the cause.

Teal was amazing because it accidentally subverted the above in two ways: 1) most of the "competitors" stayed on Green, and 2) there were less players on Teal. Both those facts made it easier for people to "meet the threshold" and get mobs/items they couldn't on Green (especially post-merge).

In short, the beauty of Teal was its lower threshold. But ultimately, new servers with lower thresholds are lipstick on a pig, unless they address the underlying problem of having a threshold at all.

P99 has long had a difficult problem (making classic EQ with unclassic player knowledge), and to solve it they've tried to make two wrongs equal a right: they've tried to fight that knowledge with increasingly insane unclassic time sinks ... when the real solution is more "fake GM" mechanisms like /list.

As much as I've argued /list 1.0 isn't perfect, the idea of /list was 100% a step in the right direction! It's just that, as I've said in other threads, it needs to work more like player agreement rolls. As the players of this server have universally agreed, those are the best and most fair way to share limited classic EQ content, because there is no threshold. Everyone who shows up has a chance, and the people who show up more get more chances.

It's both a simple and a radical departure from the previous P99 idea to make "the good stuff" only be a giveaway to the 0.1% who "meet the threshold" ... but as I said at the start, I truly think it's more classic than an artificial threshold.

[BlackBellamy]

Without the /list and it's exclusion mechanism, no one but Seal Team would have a manastone. Any guild that can lock down the red wood spawn for six days straight would do the same for the manastone. That's EXACTLY what would happen 100%. You would NEVER get on the list because there would always be a dozen guild members ahead of you.

You can all thank Rogean for taking the time to make sure some people outside the uber-guilds get a shot at these. He should be given a medal for this.

[loramin]

Without the /list and it's exclusion mechanism, no one but Seal Team would have a manastone. Any guild that can lock down the red wood spawn for six days straight would do the same for the manastone. That's EXACTLY what would happen 100%. You would NEVER get on the list because there would always be a dozen guild members ahead of you.

You can all thank Rogean for taking the time to make sure some people outside the uber-guilds get a shot at these. He should be given a medal for this.

Amen. I'm a critical person, and I try to push ways to improve things ... but not acknowledging how much better /list 1.0 is over /list 0.0 would absolutely be:

https://i.imgur.com/bCeQ4k0.jpg

P.S. But, if popular items were all on some sort of "you have to show up and 'win a roll' to get them" system, NO ONE could ever lock down ANYTHING!

[solleks]

the real problem is the wiki

[loramin]

the real problem is the wiki

https://i.imgur.com/fLwhuwR.png

;)

[galach]

I'm personally not a fan of how the list mechanic works. I've seen a bunch of abuse and neckbearding taken to the extreme. I would have personally had the item /random out to those that are on the list with perhaps increased odds for #1-#3 or something. Not a dev though.

[Erati]

Y'all have been stockholm-syndromed by this place.

Sure classic EverQuest favored those with more free time. 100% true. But classic Everquest never had the massive mandatory time sinks that P99 has. No one sat waiting in a list for days for an item on live (as I've mentioned, GMs didn't even stay online for more than eight hours). No one stared at a raid boss's spawn point for days, or waited at a zone for days to race for an FTE.

All that is purely Rogean's unclassic way of dealing with different player knowledge vs. live. It's not classic EQ, so stop pretending it is: OP would at least have had a chance in classic EQ.


What? Did you play each server simultaneously to come to this opinion?

Plenty of people camped things for a very long time...

For my VS kill to finish wiz epic I sat in KC a full day anticipating him to spawn...wasnt an FTE race like p99 but I mean people camped shit hardcore on live too.

[solleks]

maybe the epic super duper fabulous nerd fashion items need special requirements like being level 50 and beating a built in EQ trivia game to enter the list and then it gets randomed to list as well. that way its not just everyone on the server at the list camps.

[Cen]

I love the high population, it's like a nice fresh cup of coffee. You're instantly alert trying to get that rep and upgrade your camp while defending your present one at the same time.

Little elfs be swarming around with their little books yelling about rule 3 paragraph 1 must maintain line of sight to claimed camp meanwhile I'm gathering a nice "jury" to bring to the camp for the final verdict.

You can just straight out buy a manastone and JBoots are available forever, I mean eventually a merchant sells them, so is this entire thing about the Guise? Cause I go by the ass/sup room and there's frequently like 4-5 people on it.

I don't know, set your alarm clock OP?

The list has been 12 -20 since April 1st.

[loramin]

I'm personally not a fan of how the list mechanic works. I've seen a bunch of abuse and neckbearding taken to the extreme. I would have personally had the item /random out to those that are on the list with perhaps increased odds for #1-#3 or something. Not a dev though.

https://i.imgur.com/HsE0zeg.gif

Yes, that's almost exactly what I'm saying!

The only difference is the part about "should people that have waited longer get a better chance?", which is just a tiny tiny detail compared to the overall idea of making it so anyone who shows up has a chance.

Part of me is against the "better odds the longer you've been on the list" (or for #1-#3, or whatever), because nothing else works that way in EQ: when you kill a PH, there's no greater chance of getting a named, even if you've been killing that PH for three days straight.

But, at the same time, you want "the good stuff" to go to people who "work harder" for it (but again, without creating a "threshold"). Giving people who've waited longer a better chance, while maybe not super-EQ-y, does fit that.

[Cen]

The only person who pissed me off was this SK when i was in a guise group and the group suffered due to afkers and he was FD and nonresponsive for over 24 hours, and when his guise dropped, he stood up, looted and logged out. People died and the groups barely held as half the list was mildly afk and some took deaths due to afk but this dude assisted 0 the whole way

[loramin]

What? Did you play each server simultaneously to come to this opinion?

Plenty of people camped things for a very long time...

For my VS kill to finish wiz epic I sat in KC a full day anticipating him to spawn...wasnt an FTE race like p99 but I mean people camped shit hardcore on live too.

Sure they did ... but back then, if someone else had showed up and waited for VS also, what would have happened? Well, practically speaking, I think the answer is "whichever of you got a raid force there first won".

But in the (very unlikely, on live at least) event that two people, both with full raid forces, were ready to engage at the exact same time, someone would have petitioned, and it would have come down to a GM decision. Because GMs were unpredictable, that in and of itself amounted to "a roll" ... even if the GM didn't literally do /random to decide who got VS (which they likely would have ... again, in this scenario that was extremely unlikely on live).

The two core points are "A) live didn't have as much competition, so it's apples and oranges" (and this is what makes this hard for the P99 devs), but .... "B) even so, there were no 'thresholds' in classic EQ: you didn't get VS by not sleeping for a week, you got him by being first (if no one else was there) and/or (if someone else was) random luck ... and the same applied to all mobs".

[derpcake2]

I don't understand why a system which accommodates neckbeards was implemented on a server that has a previously unseen concentration of neckbeards.

Guessing to troll the general population, don't see any other reason.

People should get kicked off the list after 4 hours to promote a healthy lifestyle and some kind of fairness.

Guess that is too simple. If you going to implement an unclassic system, why not dick over the employed people?

[loramin]

How would you do it differently since you are on a server 20 years later with EQ vets?

I think I already answered this pretty solidly: remove thresholds, use artificial GMs instead.

Instead of /list creating a "threshold requirement" (no sleep for days), it would work exactly like showing up for a player-agreement-roll (for Scout, Shady Goblin, etc.). You indicate you want to be a part of the roll with /list, and then you wait for the mob to pop: when it does you get a "roll" to get that mob.

Furthermore, I'd argue that this sort of mechanism should be used on every "competed for" mob, not just legacy item mobs. Why shouldn't (say) Hadden work the same way?

Players who play P99 16 hours a day have the exact same chance of winning any individual roll as the players who play P99 16 minutes a day ... but the person showing up for 16 hours of rolls in a row is of course far more likely to get the item.

[Sunderfury]

Any system is just going to be abused, regardless of what fixes you put in place. /List is a great solution and was highly touted by nearly everyone when it was announced. You will not stop pixel lust whatever you do to the system, someone is going to figure a way to get what they want.

Seems to me the abysmal drop rate is what causes abuse of screen sharing / days of listing. I'd say keep list as is, but for Green 2.0 perhaps do the following:

Say, just for example, that current manastone would be on the server for 6 months @ 5% drop rate (I don't know exact numbers). Implement manastone for only 2 months @ 25% drop rate. Adjust level requirements as needed, implement lifetime lockout of /list. Hopefully that keeps same amount of items entering the server.

Even the above would issue cries of abuse that you need to toon share to level up to get on list because of limited window of drops blah blah blah. One does not simply stop a neckbeard, they will always have an advantage over the masses.

[loramin]

Any system is just going to be abused, regardless of what fixes you put in place. /List is a great solution and was highly touted by nearly everyone when it was announced. You will not stop pixel lust whatever you do to the system, someone is going to figure a way to get what they want.

Seems to me the abysmal drop rate is what causes abuse of screen sharing / days of listing. I'd say keep list as is, but for Green 2.0 perhaps do the following:

Say, just for example, that current manastone would be on the server for 6 months @ 5% drop rate (I don't know exact numbers). Implement manastone for only 2 months @ 25% drop rate. Adjust level requirements as needed, implement lifetime lockout of /list. Hopefully that keeps same amount of items entering the server.

Even the above would issue cries of abuse that you need to toon share to level up to get on list because of limited window of drops blah blah blah. One does not simply stop a neckbeard, they will always have an advantage over the masses.

Dude, it's like you didn't read a single word I wrote :(

I've already addressed your concerns: there is no way for neckbeards to game a player agreement roll system (which is precisely why that system is so popular among the players here!) All neckbeards can do is show up to it more often than others.

[loramin]

So be in a group camping it?

wtf are we talking about here..because without that list thing you would have to be. You gonna show up to a group/guild camping the item and throw out a /random 100 for shits and giggles?

You are not entitled to squat just because you play, modern games takes you into consideration and lets you buy your items to 'support' the poor dev team.

To be clear, I'm talking about an extremely high level change: going from "the 0.1% of the server that is willing to do things no one else will ... gets the best stuff" to "everyone has an equal chance to get the best stuff (but of course some will put in more time, and thus have a better chance)".

I worry that quibbling over exact details will miss the point ... but this is a forum and we all have too much time, so let's quibble :)

If you had a player-roll-agreement-style /list, one simple answer to your concern is "well what would happen if someone did that for Scout?" And so one answer is ... everyone on /list would have to help. /list wouldn't compel them to, but if they want the mob dead so it can respawn and they can have a chance on that next spawn, they''ll be incentivized to kill it.

But I'd argue "everyone is compelled to help" isn't very EverQuest-y; it's us players making the best of a bad situation, and lots of people here don't like it because of that. What would be more "EverQuest-y" in my opinion is that winning a "/list roll" gives you a window to kill the mob. If you don't do so within that window, another roll happens.

[therealmd]

All I can say is, OP, I pretty much think you’re an idiot. 3 million people a weekend file for unemployment and you’re stupid ass is actually complaining about having a job and not being able to get an item in a game? You need to re-evaluate your life there big guy.

[Mblake81]

willing to do things no one else will ... gets the best stuff

[loramin]

Exactly MBBlake81! What I'm saying is that we as a community have a choice (I know ultimately it's R&N that have a choice, but contrary to public opinion I truly do believe they care about and listen to the community).

There are X Fungi Tunics/Vindi BPs/Guise of Deceivers/Manastones/etc. There are Y players who want those items, where Y is much higher than X. Ultimately the server has to somehow how decide which of those Y players get X.

The EverQuest answer, and this is true at every level of the game itself, is simple: everyone has the same chance, but more time = more chances = better gear. The P99 option, which you quoted, is to make everyone in Y do increasingly nutty and non-EverQuest things, until it gets down to being the same number of people as X.

I vote the EverQuest route (but to be clear, I'm not in any way faulting the staff for their solution; it was a reasonable one to deal with a very different playerbase than live ... I just think there's an even better option possible).

[loramin]

'Someone else will kill it, they will be incentivized to so they can get the next one"

the other guy is thinking the same thing. Oh, is this a GM enforced thing? you say it wont compel but you will have to have some rules such as if you don't help you can't be on the list for 2 weeks, then a month then perma banned from it.

Adding more workload to GMs to keep up with this petty crap. You could have joined any of the top guilds, showed up when you wanted to, got your DKP but you stayed butt chapped on Blue.

Then you cried because the big bag GMs took your teal, now you want communist pixels.

You're in fight mode, so you're reading what I write to try and find something to argue with, instead of actually trying to understand what I'm saying as one human to another. This is making you miss the answers to your own posts.

I already said I don't think the "you must help" option is best. I think it's the best possible option for a player-enforced agreement, because giving a window and then re-rolling would be far more organization than the players can muster (I say this as one of the people who founded the Shady Goblin roll: you have no freaking idea just how difficult that was to start even with its extremely simple rules!)

I think player agreements are a great model though, so I think list should mostly work like them. I just think that instead of forcing everyone to help (not "EverQuest-y", but necessary for a player solution) an official /list solution could instead provide a window, and if the roll winner doesn't kill the mob in that window, they lose the mob and a new roll gives it to someone else.

As for this being "communist"? I want the EverQuest to be EverQuest, you want it to be this non-EverQuest game created to combat advanced player knowledge. I think the latter is more communist: the core EQ system is a meritocracy.

[Castle2.0]

Say, just for example, that current manastone would be on the server for 6 months @ 5% drop rate (I don't know exact numbers). Implement manastone for only 2 months @ 25% drop rate. Adjust level requirements as needed, implement lifetime lockout of /list. Hopefully that keeps same amount of items entering the server.

Even the above would issue cries of abuse that you need to toon share to level up to get on list because of limited window of drops blah blah blah. One does not simply stop a neckbeard, they will always have an advantage over the masses.


Interesting idea, but I don't see it having the intended effect. In fact, it will have some dire unintended consequences.


Point 1: On increasing drop rate

Think of "time spent at Manastone camp to get my own Manastone" as a currency. Some people have more of it than others.

Currently, people that successfully camp a Manastone are willing to spend 3-7 days at the camp. If the drop rate is 25% instead of 5%, you may have a list that is 5 times longer, since there are still people willing to spend the 3-7 days. Instead of 12 on list, you have 60 people and it moves at the same speed.

I doubt the numbers would work out exactly, as above, but I 100% believe the above trend. Increasing drop rate, or removing AFK checks totally (or for those who arent #1, or top 3, or top 5, or whatever arbitrary number) will just increase the length of the list.

Point 2: On decreasing time period in which Manstone drops + increased level + increased lockout

Now you just have farm crews constantly disrupting exp zones with powerleveling for levels 1-35 to get toons up to the required level. If the level is 45 or 50, and the timeline is a short two months, you effectively lock out a lot of a casuals from ever having any shot at the Manastone. It just means less total Manastones available, and they are still in the hands of a few.

----------------------------

/list isn't perfect, but I've looked at a lot of "solutions" and nothing looks better than what we currently have.

[loramin]

Interesting idea, but I don't see it having the intended effect. In fact, it will have some dire unintended consequences.


Point 1: On increasing drop rate

Think of "time spent at Manastone camp to get my own Manastone" as a currency. Some people have more of it than others.

Currently, people that successfully camp a Manastone are willing to spend 3-7 days at the camp. If the drop rate is 25% instead of 5%, you may have a list that is 5 times longer, since there are still people willing to spend the 3-7 days. Instead of 12 on list, you have 60 people and it moves at the same speed.

I doubt the numbers would work out exactly, as above, but I 100% believe the above trend. Increasing drop rate, or removing AFK checks totally (or for those who arent #1, or top 3, or top 5, or whatever arbitrary number) will just increase the length of the list.

Point 2: On decreasing time period in which Manstone drops + increased level + increased lockout

Now you just have farm crews constantly disrupting exp zones for levels 1-35 to get toons up to the required level. If the level is 45 or 50, and the timeline is a short two months, you effectively lock out a lot of a casuals from ever having any shot at the Manastone. It just means less total Manastones available, and they are still in the hands of a few.

----------------------------

/list isn't perfect, but I've looked at a lot of "solutions" and nothing looks better than what we currently have.

Drop rates, like Teal itself, don't address the core problem. On any game even remotely resembling EQ, there will always be more people that want the item than items that drop (Y will always be much higher than X). If it wasn't (if Fungi's dropped like candy off Fire Beetles) the game wouldn't be fun.

The issue is just how we settle the Y - X difference: create non-EQ challenges for Y until it's X-sized ... OR give everyone in Y an equal chance to be one of the X's (but, again, the people in Y who play more will earn more chances, and statistically will wind up with more phat lewtz).

[loramin]

has the permafrost frozen your brain, the community already decided then cried when the GMs tried to implement a fairness system.

Ok first off, props for the in-game insult. It helps keep this fun and not mean :)

But that being said, I do think you're wrong about the community crying over a "fairness system". Player roll agreements on Blue have gone from being just for Scout, to being for Scout, Ring rolls, and Shady/Angry Goblin. They've been going successfully for years, and none have ever gone back to FTE.

To me, that signals the community has embraced them.

no, the players do.

Again, you're objectively wrong. If "the players did", all loot on the server would go to the biggest concentration of players, and the largest guild would get everything. That's very P99 (it's how TMO was for years) ... but again it's not very EverQuest.

All Manastones (here or on live) did/do NOT go to uber guild members: as Bellamy noted, /list very much prevented that exact scenario, and I don't hear anyone saying "yes, let's go back to giving TMO (or its latest descendent) all the phat lewtz".

Incorrect. They do that because everything is known, you have a concentration of die-hards willing to go further to get that over the others. Just like in classic but everythign wasn't known and there was no precedent for the behavior going any further than it did. Just playing a game for 8 hours was bonkers. Now you have a concentration of bonkers on top of a time in society when playing games is accepted, hell even encouraged with the likes on streamer money.

Your solution is to get rid of all the older players and start fresh, like a great revolution.

What are you even talking about here? We agree that there are players that play more than others, but how does giving everyone an equal chance (which by definition gives those who play more a better chance) = getting rid of older players?

Line a bunch of them up at the OT gorge and cap em.

Again, creating new non-EverQuest games inside of EQ (like FTE races or not sleeping for days) is an option ... but it's just an option, and I think playing EverQuest is a better one.

[Castle2.0]

The issue is just how we settle the Y - X difference
There are Y people who want camp X, and Y>X.

There are Y guilds who want dragon X, and Y>X.

There are Y people who want item X, and Y>X.

Y>X is not a problem, Bernie Bro, and therefore it does not require a solution.

The biggest potential problem for legacy items was a subset of Y locking out everyone else from having any chance at the item.

/list gave everyone a fair shot in the same way every rare camp gives the camper the same drop rate. If you put in the time, you will get it.

P99 will never be, nor should be, a socialist experiment or a pure lottery.

[loramin]

Y>X is not a problem, Bernie Bro, and therefore it does not require a solution.

Exactly what I said before: if Fungi Tunics dropped off Fire Beetles then it would make Y = X ... and the game would suck (plus it wouldn't be EverQuest).

/list gave everyone a fair shot in the same way every rare camp gives the camper the same drop rate. If you put in the time, you will get it.

This is factually incorrect. /list 1.0 is a threshold system: the only players who can ever get a Manastone are those who don't sleep for days, or get someone to help them click AFK checks constantly for days. Both of those are non-EverQuest mechanisms: clicking AFK checks was never part of EverQuest.

They were added for a good reason: to simulate GMs (GMs on live did enforce lists, and we have proof of as much in the GM guidelines from live). They have been massively successful, but unless you've played here for awhile and seen what Blue was like prior to Green and /list, it's easy to miss that fact.

I'm not crapping on /list, but I am saying it could be better. /list does not give everyone an equal chance ... but my "2.0 player-agreement-style /list" idea would. The current system "gate-keeps" out 99% of the server: anyone who just wants to play a computer game and not have to stay awake for days at a time (which, at the risk of repeating myself, was NEVER A PART OF CLASSIC EVERQUEST).

[Castle2.0]

We all show up every 28 minutes to roll? Sounds real bad. Enlighten me.

[loramin]

We all show up every 28 minutes to roll? Sounds real bad. Enlighten me.

You mean "we all show up every *mob X respawn time minutes* if we want a chance to kill mob X?" Yes, emphatically so: that's EQ!

In EQ you show up and kill something, unless someone else is already killing it, in which case you wait your turn. That's how it works when you want a Fungi Tunic in Seb, that's how it works when you want a Talisman of Benevolence from Scout, and that's even how some raid content works (in Plane of Sky). That's EverQuest!

It's also how /list 1.0 works! In that respect my "/list 2.0" is no worse, only ... A) instead of having to click an AFK check, you just have to not be AFK when the mob spawns, and B) at the end of the day, when you haven't gotten the mob, you can go to sleep and start over in the morning (again, like anything else in EQ).

[loramin]

So remove the list, camp the mob.

Make more complaint threads about overpopulation. No wonder the original devs put instances in.

"I want to camp the mob and get the item but other people are doing it. I need a place just for me so I can get it"

Skyrim.

Again, it's like you just want to argue with me rather than think.

How is "the people who don't sleep are the only ones who can ever get the best stuff" a better system than "everyone who plays the game has an equal chance (people who play more get better chances)?"

That's all I want to know.

[BlackBellamy]

I got a highly desirable camp once due to some server shenanigans and within a minute someone from a well-known guild offered me 6k to leave. This was a bit more money than I could hope to farm there as a single player with biological needs. He knew exactly how much to offer me to gtfo and so I did. They're probably still holding it.

[Mblake81]

Again, it's like you just want to argue with me rather than think.

How is "the people who don't sleep are the only ones who can ever get the best stuff" a better system than "everyone who plays the game has an equal chance (people who play more get better chances)?" That's all I want to know.

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

[loramin]

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT

The same exact thing I've been talking about for the past several pages? /list 1.0 vs. a better version? I know you've been racing to yell angrily at me and not fully reading my posts, but ... c'mon.

[Mblake81]

Are you proposing a no lockdown rule on certain mobs, namely the ones that drop legacy items?

[Fammaden]

He's proposing that every time a legacy drops, the people on /list (or presently camping the item by some other metric) all get a roll or a random on winning the item. Like scout roll but more server hardware enforced presumably, and only when the legacy item drops. At least that's my impression of what he's proposing.

[loramin]

Are you proposing a no lockdown rule on certain mobs, namely the ones that drop legacy items?

At the risk of boring everyone else here by repeating the exact same thing I've already said in multiple posts ...

I'm proposing changing /list (1.0) to instead be like a player agreement random roll. No "I don't sleep for five days so I get the best stuff", and instead every player on the server has an equal chance of "winning the roll" for the item.

To address concerns, I proposed adding some sort of "window" to the roll, eg. you have to engage the mob within 2 minutes and kill it within 10, or there's a new roll and someone else gets the mob. But really the exact details aren't important; what's important is shifting from a "threshold system" (only the nuttiest of the server get the best stuff) to an "EverQuest system" (everyone has a chance, those who play more have better chances).

He's proposing that every time a legacy drops, the people on /list (or presently camping the item by some other metric) all get a roll or a random on winning the item. Like scout roll but more server hardware enforced presumably, and only when the legacy item drops. At least that's my impression of what he's proposing.

Thank you, I'm glad someone got it :D Although it could work on either an NPC-level or a dropped-item-level; personally I'm not really picky which, since it doesn't change things much either way. It might not be fun to "win" a Hadden roll and not have him drop an earring, but basing it on Hadden and not the earring might be simpler.

[Mblake81]

So guy that shows up for 5 minutes wins the roll I guess.

How does that take into account the people actively camping the item? holding it down and doing all the work?

I have never seen a camp in eq where holding it down and doing the work allowed others to come in and /random on the goods.

Is scout a camp?

Are we redefining what is and what isn't a camp because of a manastone?

[Fammaden]

Are we redefining what is and what isn't a camp because of a manastone?

Apparently so, I mean he admits himself that in EQ you show up to claim the camp then camp it until you get your drop or give up. If someone got there before you or can stay longer, than you are out of luck and that's how it is in EQ for every item. But for legacies we just throw that out the window because reasons?

I really think this is a slippery slope, the whining about shit like pained soul and fungi not being on the /roll system would be cacophonous. There's already rumblings from these shitter-come-lately people new to P99 thanks to green that those camps should be /list.

In my opinion the real answer is to fix the orginal dev team's mistake in creating these "legacy" items in the first place by never including them on green. But that ship is sailed. And yes list is far from perfect.

Maybe if anything keep list but when the item drops the top six listers do a /random. The longer you've been on list the more bonus you get on your random perhaps, but now we are getting into more and more coding to add to the project which we all know is unfair and unrealistic to expect at this time.

[loramin]

I'm advocating a major, high-level shift, and I've deliberately tried to avoid "getting into the weeds" so we can focus on what's important (do we want a meritocratic "EverQuest-y" system, or a "threshold system"?)

But ...
So guy that shows up for 5 minutes wins the roll I guess.
Yes ... just like the guy who lucks out and gets his Guardian Robe after killing one mob in Skyshrine, he can "win the roll" even though you've just killed 999 Skyshrine mobs. Shit's EverQuest.

How does that take into account the people actively camping the item? holding it down and doing all the work?

I have never seen a camp in eq where holding it down and doing the work allowed others to come in and /random on the goods.

/list 1.0 already addresses this. /list 2.0 could solve it in multiple ways (as I previously outlined). Either it could go "full player agreement mode" and no one could get a new mob until the old was cleared ("forcing" people to help) ... or (and I think this is more EverQuest-y) "winning the roll" could only give you a window to kill the mob: fail to do so and there's a new roll, so someone who can kill it can do so.

Is scout a camp?

/list 1.0 was very deliberately only applied to legacy items, because it was new and the staff wanted to "dip their toe" into the water of "automated GMing". I see no reason to change that, and so I'd start with /list 2.0 only applying to legacy item camps.

But ultimately, yeah I think having the server enforce an ("EverQuest-y") system would be superior to player agreements. For instance, a server-enforced system with a window could remove the need for people to help with fights (which as I've said, is necessary to make the agreement work ... but who remembers Scout working that way on live?).

Of course, for the "roll mobs" specifically P99 would require custom code to "give" the fight to another player if the first fails, and this is the sort of detail that would need to be worked out if/when this system ever made it that far (some people might argue that's more or less "EverQuest-Y" than the player agreement system; I'd argue it's more, but again I don't want to get lost in details).

Are we redefining what is and what isn't a camp because of a manastone?

Again, I'm talking about /list, and currently /list is legacy item camps. But I could absolutely see great benefit to extending the system elsewhere in the game ... it's just that the details of how it's implemented matter, and those details would need to be sorted out to make it applicable. Hadden is different from the Evil Eye, who's different from the Fungus King, who is different from an NPC (like Scout) you have to turn something into.

Which leads to ...

sheiit, put me down for a Fungi.. i will sit in the corner with my rogue and watch porn while some other fools do all the hard work.. alls I gotta do is /random and get lucky

While the details would have to be worked out, obviously it would need to address that sort of thing. One already-discussed mechanism to do so would be the window (good luck killing that king by yourself ...)

Ultimately, I'm not saying "let's change everything overnight without thinking", but I am arguing for a high-level change to make P99 more classic, expressed first through a superior (2.0) version of /list ... with the idea being that the principle could ultimately be used elsewhere.

[Fammaden]

Thank you, I'm glad someone got it :D Although it could work on either an NPC-level or a dropped-item-level; personally I'm not really picky which, since it doesn't change things much either way. It might not be fun to "win" a Hadden roll and not have him drop an earring, but basing it on Hadden and not the earring might be simpler.

Ok, so you DO propose that this system should follow every rare item time sink camp? I can appreciate the consistency in that but for me personally it really does start to feel like not EQ anymore. People rolled on stuff when camping in a group together, you never just showed up to camp and expected to roll when it dropped two minutes later against a guy who'd held the spawn for hours. I understand it for legacies based on what we've seen but I just don't see it being a good idea extended to the game at large.

Stuff like ring 8 and scout work because there are hard limitations to them, doing the quest pre-req's, faction, level considerations, travel and location dangers. You do this at hadden and its a royal shit show. Even with the success of something like ring8/scout you still have constant drama, attempts to game the system or monopolize the spawn or hand off to buddies alts surreptitiously, people showing up aggro and non factioned cause all they see is pixels and don't actually prepare, underleveled people causing friction with frequent rollers.

Now we open that all up to a mob in a newbie zone? To a camp deep in the second floor of seb prone to trains of shit that can easily wipe velious geared 60 groups? I just imagine a constant auction on RMT sites for these items/MQ's when its only a /random away for some dude that does nothing but log toons in at the value camps at the roll time all day every day.

[Fammaden]

Yes ... just like the guy who lucks out and gets his Guardian Robe after killing one mob in Skyshrine, he can "win the roll" even though you've just killed 999 Skyshrine mobs. Shit's EverQuest.

Lucking out on a zone wide drop is very different from camping a static spawn PH/named cycle and doesn't really seem comparable.

[loramin]

Ok, so you DO propose that this system should follow every rare item time sink camp? I can appreciate the consistency in that but for me personally it really does start to feel like not EQ anymore. People rolled on stuff when camping in a group together, you never just showed up to camp and expected to roll when it dropped two minutes later against a guy who'd held the spawn for hours. I understand it for legacies based on what we've seen but I just don't see it being a good idea extended to the game at large.

What I want to change ... and again this is a philosophical change, to get closer to classic EQ ... is to move away from "only people willing to do crazy non-EQ things get the best EQ stuff". That is a purely P99-construct, created to deal with the fact that we have way more people who want Manastones (or whatever) here than live did. But (as I've tried to argue) it's not the most "EverQuest-Y" solution.

Stuff like ring 8 and scout work because there are hard limitations to them, doing the quest pre-req's, faction, level considerations, travel and location dangers. You do this at hadden and its a royal shit show. Even with the success of something like ring8/scout you still have constant drama, attempts to game the system or monopolize the spawn or hand off to buddies alts surreptitiously, people showing up aggro and non factioned cause all they see is pixels and don't actually prepare, underleveled people causing friction with frequent rollers.

Now we open that all up to a mob in a newbie zone? To a camp deep in the second floor of seb prone to trains of shit that can easily wipe velious geared 60 groups? I just imagine a constant auction on RMT sites for these items/MQ's when its only a /random away for some dude that does nothing but log toons in at the value camps at the roll time all day every day.

I guess I confused people by trying to apply a principle, which I see existing across EverQuest, to justify a specific change to /list ... and I made things worse by suggesting that someday that system (in some form) might be used elsewhere besides Legacy mobs.

Point #1:
I 100% think "/list 2.0" (based on playing the game and patience/luck, nothing else) is better than /list 1.0 (where not sleeping for days and clicking a box every few minutes is what matters), for legacy mobs.

Point #2:
At the same time, I think a shift towards more "automated GMing" could make P99 more classic in many other places too. For instance, it could allow for Scout rolls where you have to actually bring friends and do the fight yourself.

As I said before, forcing everyone there to help is not classic EQ ... but it is a necessary departure from classic EQ if you want to make a player-run (and not server-implemented) agreement. "Automated GMing" could improve that.

Lucking out on a zone wide drop is very different from camping a static spawn PH/named cycle and doesn't really seem comparable.

My point was more that lots of EverQuest is about luck. There's nothing "not-EverQuest-y" about giving people an equal random chance at something that multiple people want, whether that thing is a Guardian Robe, Fishbone Earring, or whatever.

[Mblake81]

What I want to change ... and again this is a philosophical change, to get closer to classic EQ ... is to move away from "only people willing to do crazy non-EQ things get the best EQ stuff". That is a purely P99-construct, created to deal with the fact that we have way more people who want Manastones (or whatever) here than live did. But (as I've tried to argue) it's not the most "EverQuest-Y" solution.

Everquest-y

People willing to log on later at night, say after 10pm or wake up early on a weekend to play all day were once things people wouldn't consider but did because of Original Everquest.

Your philosophy is flawed.

Lucking out on a zone wide drop is very different from camping a static spawn PH/named cycle and doesn't really seem comparable.

It's not and hes reaching.

[Castle2.0]

"Playing the lottery" is luck. Put in $1 (low or no value) and hope for a big win against immeasurable and changing odds.

"Playing the odds" is putting in something of real value (time, effort, skill, money and/or something else) to win where a measurable and not infinitesimally small odds exists.

EQ is more like playing the odds (ex: poker), and less like the lottery.

Your lotto method is counter to the true spirit of EQ. That is the "RNG" side of EQ. There is one more side: 'the classic MMORPG equation' - see below.

EQ was always a "resources in, pixels out" equation. To get your epic, train your tradeskills, kill a raid target, camp a rare item, get to max level, etc. will cost you time, plat, effort, and some skill.

We didn't sign up to play a slot machine. See lottery vs poker example above if it's not making sense.

[loramin]

"Playing the lottery" is luck. Put in $1 (low or no value) and hope for a big win against immeasurable and changing odds.

"Playing the odds" is putting in something of real value (time, effort, skill, money and/or something else) to win where a measurable and not infinitesimally small odds exists.

EQ is more like playing the odds (ex: poker), and less like the lottery.

Your lotto method is counter to the true spirit of EQ. That is the "RNG" side of EQ. There is one more side: 'the classic MMORPG equation' - see below.

EQ was always a "resources in, pixels out" equation. To get your epic, train your tradeskills, kill a raid target, camp a rare item, get to max level, etc. will cost you time, plat, effort, and some skill.

We didn't sign up to play a slot machine. See lottery vs poker example above if it's not making sense.

It's a lotto either way, and ultimately it has to be. There's no other way to fairly distribute one mastone among 100 people that want it.

The question is, do we only let the most insane players, who are willing to do (extreme) non-EverQuest things (like not sleep for a week), participate in that lottery, or do we open it up to everyone who wants to play the game?

[loramin]

Everquest-y

People willing to log on later at night, say after 10pm or wake up early on a weekend to play all day were once things people wouldn't consider but did because of Original Everquest.


So you're saying that in EverQuest some players are willing to put in more hours (or play at different hours), and those players should have a better chance? I couldn't agree more.

But if you're saying that only people willing to not sleep for a week should get to play EverQuest (or at least get the best pixels in it), I strongly disagree.

[Mblake81]

good lord.

So you're saying that in EverQuest some players are willing to put in more hours (or play at different hours), and those players should have a better chance? I couldn't agree more.

That is not what you are saying, Loramin.

But if you're saying that only people willing to not sleep for a week should get to play EverQuest (or at least get the best pixels in it), I strongly disagree.

Because of the list right? and there are guys not sleeping for a week to do that?

Why was the list put in, Loramin.

[Arvan]

Pro tip kiddo - roll a dark elf if you want to look like a dark elf

[Anxarcule]

I think a better solution would be for the server to keep track of how many hours you have logged at a given camp. and at any given time whoever has the most logged hours is #1. it would allow semi-poopsockers to put in their time in chunks instead of all at once.

Just me 0.02c, though I don't have any /list items and probably wouldn't even with my proposed system

[Mblake81]

Pro tip kiddo - roll a dark elf if you want to look like a dark elf

And run around in sweet Adamantite armor while the rest of the mouth droolers quibble over a manastone to the point they topsy-turvy the game to be fair, so everyone can have a pixel and restore their digital fantasy self-esteem.

Legacy items should never be removed or changed.

Other camps should never be changed for the whims of a few cry babies who can't deal with it.

one fucking year I spent chasing a white dragon scale because A/A had everything locked down.

Oh where oh where were the Loramins of the day to White Knight forumquest to get that drop changed so it could be fair. OH.. maybe he wants a manastone or two?

Where were my multitude of retarded threads about how A/A are the big bad guys and they suck! I am cool and deserve a stone or a pixel. Change the game so I can win! The only thing I have EVER requested on this site was a change to NTOV entrance pulls, mainly because they had it set up for fucks who didn't want to play the game at all.

[Castle2.0]

It's a lotto either way, and ultimately it has to be. There's no other way to fairly distribute one mastone among 100 people that want it. Two logical fallacies here: (1) False equivocation and (2) begging the question.

(1) See poker vs lottery example. Some RNG does not equal pure RNG. Poker does not equal lottery.
(2) You assume pure RNG is the only way to 'fairly distribute' the manastone and thus your pure RNG must be correct.

Effectively, you're saying:
"Your idea is based on the same premise as mine. And since my standard of fairness is the right one, my idea must be correct."

Wrong.


The question is, do we only let the most insane players, who are willing to do (extreme) non-EverQuest things (like not sleep for a week), participate in that lottery, or do we open it up to everyone who wants to play the game?
Another logical fallacy: False dichotomy - I got a Manastone in 18 hours once. Anyone who really wants it, can stay up 18 hours once and be totally healthy and sane.

To those who go long....no one is staying up for a week. People are banding together with friends to camp an item, and taking turns camping it. Sounds pretty EQ to me. Kind of like getting your epic. I'd even call it an "asynchronous epic camp" since it's friends camping the item in succession.

Your argument is pretty flaccid: " Fellas.... it's INSANITY or my way (whcih BTW I am going to tell you, is just so very reasonable, so good, I'm just going to describe it as "open it up to everyone who wants to play the game").

Lastly, your Bernie Bro socialist approach is one of the worst ideas to 'fix' list. I'm not going to ping pong the idea back and forth with you on this. It will never happen because it is so antithetical to the spirit of EQ. It cheapens the goal (manastone) by requiring nothing more than dumb luck. No feeling of ownership, no feeling of accomplishment -- it's socialism.

I'll let you argue it out with others. I've made my points -- they can stand on their own merits, and I'll bet 50K, your approach is never implemented for Manastone on Green.

[loramin]

Two logical fallacies here: (1) False equivocation and (2) begging the question.

Jesus Christ: I get page after page of Blake, and then out of nowhere someone wants to have a rational debate! I think you're wrong about my "fallacies", but damn it's nice to have someone who at least engages, and with logic no less!

(1) See poker vs lottery example. Some RNG does not equal pure RNG. Poker does not equal lottery.
(2) You assume pure RNG is the only way to 'fairly distribute' the manastone and thus your pure RNG must be correct.

Effectively, you're saying:
"Your idea is based on the same premise as mine. And since my standard of fairness is the right one, my idea must be correct."

Wrong.

So not sleeping for a week = playing poker? I don't buy it.

(2) False dichotomy - I got a Manastone in 18 hours once. Anyone who really wants it, can stay up 18 hours once and be totally healthy and sane.

Ok, you tell me: what's the name of the logical fallacy where you take an exceptional case and try to use it to ignore the actually applicable cases (bonus points for the Latin name ;))?

Most people getting a manastone, and for certain everyone since the servers merged, have all needed much, much longer than 18 hours.

To those who go long....no one is staying up for a week. People are banding together with friends to camp an item, and taking turns camping it. Sounds pretty EQ to me. Kind of like getting your epic. I'd even call it an "asynchronous epic camp" since it's friends camping the item in succession.

So sharing accounts is how things were done in classic EverQuest? You had to trade accounts with another real life player to get the good stuff? Strange, I don't remember that at all: that seems 100% like an unclassic requirement introduced solely by P99.

(But again, I don't blame P99; trying to recreate an ancient game when the players have modern knowledge is a hard problem, and /list 1.0 was a great solution ... I just think an even better way is possible.)

(3) Lastly, your Bernie Bro socialist approach is one of the worst ideas to 'fix' list. I'm not going to ping pong the idea back and forth with you on this. It will never happen because it is so antithetical to the spirit of EQ. It cheapens the goal (manastone) by requiring nothing more than dumb luck. No feeling of ownership, no feeling of accomplishment -- it's socialism.

I'll let you argue it out with others. I've made my points -- they can stand on their own merits, and I'll bet 50K, your approach never is implemented for Manastone on Green.

You lost me here. How is it socialist for everyone who puts in the effort to have an equal chance to gain a reward, based on how much effort they put in? That's fucking capitalism bro: no one's guaranteed a thing, and the only way to make sure you get something you want is to work harder for it.

It's more socialist (at least if we're talking Russian socialism and not say Danish socialism) to pick an arbitrary elite group that did nothing within the game itself to deserve it, and give them all the good shit.

[Mblake81]

Jesus Christ: I get page after page of Blake, and then out of nowhere someone wants to have a rational debate!


Bite me, you icy nutts Barbarian

[loramin]

one fucking year I spent chasing a white dragon scale because A/A had everything locked down.

Oh where oh where were the Loramins of the day to White Knight forumquest to get that drop changed so it could be fair. OH.. maybe he wants a manastone or two?

Stockholm syndrome ;)

Look, nothing I've said would change any of what you said. Even if /list 2.0 were implemented tomorrow on every mob in the game, you'd still probably have to put in a year to win one, unless you were insanely lucky, because lots of people want white dragon scales and there aren't enough to go around. X and Y, like I said before.

There are no free pixels in EverQuest, and I'm certainly not promising any ... I just want to get back to playing EverQuest for pixels.

Bite me, you icy nutts Barbarian

<3

[Mblake81]

There are no free pixels in EverQuest, and I'm certainly not promising any ... I just want to get back to playing EverQuest for pixels.

The list was put in to get you guys stones, it was loaded up to the point you have to wait a week (or whatever the time is)

If you want to get back to playing EQ for pixels to knock out the top guys and get them. Or log in at an odd hour, which you are not going to get 'lucky' with the manastone camp because it was setup to give you guys a fair chance.

Your crying is what has resulted in this. Now you can't deal with that and want it changed but fail to grasp how that will be taken advantage of, a month after the 'improvement' has been put in there will be more threads about how it sucks and it needs to be more fair.

Rogean/Nilbog could just insta-poof some stones on each of your characters.. but that would be complained about because the other guy had two accounts and now has more.

Stockholm syndrome ;)

Did you take up employment at some asian mobile games company?

[loramin]

If you want to get back to playing EQ for pixels to knock out the top guys and get them. Or log in at an odd hour, which you are not going to get 'lucky' with the manastone camp because it was setup to give you guys a fair chance.

So what's the best time of day to join a week-long list? Or should I just keep training everyone on the list until I'm first (which is what your first suggestion sounds like)?

But most importantly of all ... when do you start hating Classic EverQuest? (And yes Castle, I know the logical fallacy there, but I think the rhetorical point makes up for it.)

[Mblake81]

So what's the best time of day to join a week-long list? Or should I just keep training everyone on the list until I'm first (which is what your first suggestion sounds like)?

None, motherfuckers. You got a list because you wanted it to be fair. Now, the fairness is your dumb asses waiting a week to get it. But at least you know you will, unlike a power guild camping the spot and holding it for all loots for who knows how long.

There is no wit, no guile or intrigue. Take your ticket and sit at the digital elf DMV.

[loramin]

Like I said, I think /list 1.0 is a vastly superior solution to /list version 0.0 (ie. having TMO block anyone else out of getting a manastone). /list 1.0 is not bad ... but that doesn't mean a 2.0 can't be better.

However, you seem to be trying to trash that system, and at the same time trashing me for wanting to make it better. That seem incongruous.

[Picked]

I'm in the same boat as the OP as I stated on another thread. I'm not upset about it, it's just the way things are and the way they played out. I wish I was at home getting paid like some but I'm also happy I'm getting paid where some aren't, but you have to suck it up. It's our job. It's what we chose to do professionally. I take pride in what I do and I am glad I am considered an essential business and get to stay open providing services to the public.

Do the circumstances suck for some of us in regards to P99? Yes, but they are good for a lot of people who are getting these items that normally wouldn't have.

I'm also glad that when I log in the server is full and groups are going everywhere, people are running through every zone, it's like it was back when it launched in 99. You know it's populated when you can't even find some guards to kill.

I'm not really sure what you plan to accomplish with this post if it isn't wanting to be compensated for something. You are wanting these items without putting in the time to get them? Do you want people to know your plight? Do you want something to change? You said no to all of these so what is the angle exactly? What do you expect the people on the server to do? More so what do you expect the developers and people in charge to do?

[Mblake81]

I'm not really sure what you plan to accomplish with this post if it isn't wanting to be compensated for something. You are wanting these items without putting in the time to get them? Do you want people to know your plight? Do you want something to change? You said no to all of these so what is the angle exactly? What do you expect the people on the server to do? More so what do you expect the developers and people in charge to do?

[loramin]

I'm not really sure what you plan to accomplish with this post if it isn't wanting to be compensated for something. You are wanting these items without putting in the time to get them?

You people are arguing with the voices in your head: you just could not have read this thread, and put any effort whatsoever into understanding it ... and written that post.. So it seems silly for me to write more when what I already wrote isn't being read ...

...but just to be 100% clear there was NOTHING WHATSOEVER about anyone being "compensated" for ANYTHING in any of the past eight pages of conversation (not by me, and not even by anyone else that I can remember). I also never said a single thing about giving anyone items without putting time in.

In fact, I'm arguing for the exact opposite: I want people to "put the time time in" ... playing the game of EverQuest. As I've said, that amounts to having patience and luck (for the most part EQ is not a skill-based game, like say Counter Strike). Playing EQ is how people earned their pixels in 1999, and that's how they should earn them here ... but the current system instead gives them to those who play non-EQ "games" (like not sleeping for a week or trading accounts, so you can click boxes all day). 99% of the server doesn't want to or can't "play" those games, but from the reactions you'd think that was a radical idea to suggest that's not EverQuest.

[Fammaden]

I feel like every solution you're coming up with, Loramin, tends to devolve in the long run to being a sort of WoW daily quest situation. Anyone can have the item on a long enough timeline, but the most hardcore will get it done faster/more efficiently. And that's simply not Everquest-y to many of us.

There are a ton of unfair things about EQ in the past and the present. There are myriad unhealthy behaviors associated with this game's timesinks. That's very classic and very EQ to me. Some people simply never got some items if they couldn't sink the time, or at best got them after Luclin+ trivialized the old content. Everyone has a fair shot, but it depends on how much RL you are willing to sacrifice to get it.

I do like ideas like using cumulative time on the list instead of requiring 70+ hours logged in, I get that this leads to toxic behavior like account sharing or dangerous sleep deprivation. I get it, legacies are limited time and we don't want people monopolizing. That still doesn't mean it has to be FAIR, like leveling the playing field for joe casual two hours a week fair, you can go too far.

[Picked]

I'm not really sure what you plan to accomplish with this post if it isn't wanting to be compensated for something. You are wanting these items without putting in the time to get them? Do you want people to know your plight? Do you want something to change? You said no to all of these so what is the angle exactly? What do you expect the people on the server to do? More so what do you expect the developers and people in charge to do?

I made sure to mention that OP said he didn't post this FOR THESE REASONS lol so I'm curious as to why even post it. I'm genuinely curious. My post was to him and his initial post. Had nothing to do with what you said at any time in this thread.

[Mblake81]

https://i.imgur.com/qPEwgHk.jpg

[loramin]

I feel like every solution you're coming up with, Loramin, tends to devolve in the long run to being a sort of WoW daily quest situation. Anyone can have the item on a long enough timeline, but the most hardcore will get it done faster/more efficiently. And that's simply not Everquest-y to many of us.

There are a ton of unfair things about EQ in the past and the present. There are myriad unhealthy behaviors associated with this game's timesinks. That's very classic and very EQ to me.

Fan I really feel like you're trying harder than anyone here to actually read what I write and respond to that, and I appreciate it.

Also I'm very open to the idea that making non-EQ changes to try and fix EQ can make it worse ... in fact that's kind of a key part my central thesis :D

(Although again, /list 1.0 is MUCH, MUCH better than /list 0.0: P99 is absolutely getting better over time!)

But I honestly don't get your argument. You truly feel clicking boxes all day and not sleeping for a week, or trading accounts to do so, is MORE like classic EQ than a random chance (where the people with more time get more chances)?

[loramin]

I made sure to mention that OP said he didn't post this FOR THESE REASONS lol so I'm curious as to why even post it. I'm genuinely curious. My post was to him and his initial post. Had nothing to do with what you said at any time in this thread.

Apologies: I misunderstood.

The bulk of the conversation has been about my "/list 2.0" idea, so I took your latter paragraphs to be about it also (in my defense, so did Blake ;)). I guess they weren't, which was a misunderstanding on my part, and again I apologize.

[loramin]

https://i.imgur.com/qPEwgHk.jpg

What classic EQ looks like:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=12394&dateline=1577286590

What EQ looks like Blake-style, when you add lots of unclassic mechanisms instead of playing EQ:

https://i.imgur.com/2vkoFeM.png

[Mblake81]

Ok, Boomer.

The perma has for sure broke your brain, Loramin. You acting like it was me who suggested making a list for those camps.

Apologies: I misunderstood.

The bulk of the conversation has been about my "/list 2.0" idea, so I took your latter paragraphs to be about it also (in my defense, so did Blake ;)). I guess they weren't, which was a misunderstanding on my part, and again I apologize.

I knew what he was referring to. You responded to him like you did.

[loramin]

As I recall (and I've tried to find this post, but failed), I did endorse a /list-like idea early on ... I think even prior even to Green being announced. However, the decision to apply the idea to legacy camps was not at all mine (AFAIK it was the staff's).

Either way, who cares who suggested what? Let's talk about what would be best/most classic. Simple question: back in 1999 did people ...


wait their turn to get pixels?
rely on multiple attempts over time (ie. patience and luck) to get pixels?
click AFK checks all day long, and then either not sleep or pass their account over to someone else to get pixels?


One of those three is not classic. We give the best pixels in the game out in the least classic way, and all I'm saying is "let's be more classic".

[Mblake81]

As I recall (and I've tried to find this post, but failed), I did endorse a /list-like idea early on, prior even to Green being announced IIRC. However, the decision to apply the idea to legacy camps was not at all mine (AFAIK it was the staff's).

Either way, who cares who suggested what? Simple question: back in 1999 did people ...


wait their turn to get pixels?
rely on patience and luck to get pixels?
click AFK checks all day long, and then either not sleep or pass their account over to someone else?


One of those three is not classic.

You do, fool. You just posted "my version" of EQ is WOW after you just got accused by the guy you misunderstood for supporting WoW-like features. Instead of list removal and playing the game you have proposed further list related things that are anti-eq.. while talking about how pro Eq you are and what is Everquest-y.

Are you trying to topsy-turvy?

[loramin]

You do, fool. You just posted "my version" of EQ is WOW after you just got accused by the guy you misunderstood for supporting WoW-like features. Instead of list removal and playing the game you have proposed further list related things that are anti-eq.. while talking about how pro Eq you are and what is Everquest-y.

You posted a pic about ice blowing up my skirt; my (also image-based) reply was on the same level of seriousness :p

But the core idea remains. I listed three things, and you seem to be avoiding acknowledging which one isn't classic, evan as you quote them.

Look, /list 0.0 (uber guild hogs all the best pixels by locking down camps) isn't classic. /list 1.0 (people who don't sleep hog all the pixels) isn't classic. Can we agree on that much?

If so, wouldn't you agree that there's a potential for a better/more classic /list 2.0?

[Mblake81]

You posted a pic about ice blowing up my skirt; my (also image-based) reply was on the same level of seriousness :p

haha! and no, you weren't.

But the core idea remains. I listed three things, and you seem to be avoiding telling me which one isn't classic.

Bah. What is this jeopardy. You bringing your bridge riddles in here after proposing BS

[loramin]

Please see revised post; I got a little carried away while editing (it's the Literature major in me ...).

But the really key thing is, I'm asking you to identify what classic EQ is, and whether you want it. If you won't do that, it makes it hard to talk: I can't have a rational conversation with someone who thinks clicking AFK boxes (or guilds locking down camps) is what happened in 1999.

[Mblake81]

Look, /list 0.0 (uber guild hogs all the best pixels by locking down camps) isn't classic. /list 1.0 (people who don't sleep hog all the pixels) isn't classic. Can we agree on that much?

oh my fucking word.. Loramin the players are not classic. Your wiki is not classic either.. I can't answer you straight because you are not asking straight questions.

[loramin]

Wiki is mostly classic; we had Caster's Realm and Allakhazam. And of course, the players will never be classic, and we can never have 1999 back again without a time machine. What we're talking about is degrees: trying to be more or less classic.

So I'll make it very, very "straight" for you. Did players in 1999 ...


wait their turn to get pixels?
rely on multiple attempts over time (ie. patience and luck) to get pixels?
give certain pixels over to certain guilds, which locked them down 24/7?
click AFK checks all day long, and then either not sleep or pass their account over to someone else to get pixels?


Should be an easy question to answer if you know classic EQ.

[Mblake81]

Wiki is mostly classic; we had Caster's Realm and Allakhazam.

But I'll make it very, very straight for you. Did players in 1999 ...


wait their turn to get pixels?
rely on multiple attempts over time (ie. patience and luck) to get pixels?
give certain pixels over to certain guilds, which locked them down 24/7?
click AFK checks all day long, and then either not sleep or pass their account over to someone else to get pixels?


Should be an easy question to answer if you know classic EQ.

Hogwash! it's compiled all in one spot and there are little to any guesses, its fact for the most part.

Lists are not classic outside of a group having one for replacement members. That was not GM enforced or any coding done to add anything to the game. You kept a list with a pen and paper because we were not all morons yet that can't tie our shoes or wipe our own asses.

[loramin]

You're going to great lengths to avoid answering the question (even after I did what you asked and presented it "straight"). I think that's making my argument stronger honestly.

[Cen]

oh my fucking word.. Loramin the players are not classic. Your wiki is not classic either.. I can't answer you straight because you are not asking straight questions.

Interesting fact, that actually falls into red herring territory, like the demand for 100% absolute certainty.

One time someone was telling me how unnatural a shoe was for running and I was like, then run barefoot without shoes. Don't lift with a barbell, don't be under a roof, etc etc.

You can't actually have classic. It's impossible, and everyone knows it.

The closest thing you can get is to give this server we're playing to a group of people who have never played the game in the first place, with minimal internet access or a wiki that you burn to the ground, and ban anyone who has played before. Then you have a classic server for a bunch of folks who its all new for!

Using the fact that we can't have absolute classic though would just be considered a red herring in a discussion anymore.

[loramin]

Interesting fact, that actually falls into red herring territory, like the demand for 100% absolute certainty.

One time someone was telling me how unnatural a shoe was for running and I was like, then run barefoot without shoes. Don't lift with a barbell, don't be under a roof, etc etc.

You can't actually have classic. It's impossible, and everyone knows it.

The closest thing you can get is to give this server we're playing to a group of people who have never played the game in the first place, with minimal internet access or a wiki that you burn to the ground, and ban anyone who has played before. Then you have a classic server for a bunch of folks who its all new for!

100% agree! We can't go back to 1999, but that doesn't mean we can't aim for "most classic EQ possible in 2020".

[Mblake81]

The argument that players are not classic is not so any or further unclassic things can be added. Its acknowledgement that both the old players who know everything and can bend the game or will take things to the higher extreme because what it takes is known and people naturally one-up that.

And that new players often come in with WoW as their only reference point.

The list, iirc, was put in because people wanted the legacy items and knew the big guilds would sit on them to control them which is classic EQ but not in the same sense of the original game because no one knew they would be worth anything later.

Blue also had a small amount of players when the manastone still dropped so there was less on the server and demanded a high price. Then in turn led everyone to want one for green, they were worried they couldn't get one so an unclassic list was put in for unclassic reasons for unclassic players doing something unclassic because they are not classic (see above)

Edit: I came in fighting due to reading some of the posts. Angry that I was, I figured this was well known by now to some of you posters who, while you might not post everyday, have been here for sometime and would already know that. Confusion further increased.

[Topgunben]

Unemployeds winning eq? Oh no you didn't

^

[Topgunben]

Unemployed players have been winning EQ since 1999. It's classic.

I would counter though that in order to be unemployed one must;

1) Not be gainfully employed
2) be actively looking for employment

Most neck beards going to get hung up on #2.

[solleks]

KILL THE WIKI ITS TOXIC

[Amyas]

I still go to work mon-fri and have wanted a DE mask on a druid since 99. I don't think it is going to happen =(

[Mblake81]

I still go to work mon-fri and have wanted a DE mask on a druid since 99. I don't think it is going to happen =(

:confused:

tough break.

there were people for years upon years that wanted Warder loot, as Mead would say.. "You're welcome"

As a counter flame some top guild members would say "Sorry you didn't get warder loot"

Did Loramin ever campaign for the Sleeper? (honest I don't know)

This is the game, this is the hook that keeps us here unlike other pleasure factories. And at least in my case it was seeing parts of the game I never did in classic, just because I played didn't mean anything. Note: That last sentence is really just a response to an argument I had years ago on one of the social media sites when I was going back and forth with a guy talking about MMORPGs, he was all about the pleasure cruise. I guess that makes me a digital sadist/masochist..oh well, that seems more adult than a console controller twerp going on about his xbox achievements and match-making rank.

[Visual]

I still go to work mon-fri and have wanted a DE mask on a druid since 99. I don't think it is going to happen =(

Is it impossible for you to make friends? After all, that is what this game is about.

Once you have done that, they can take shifts and you can get to your goal. Where there is a will, there is a way.

[bubur]

You could just as easily say the pandemic screwed you out of the guise, or your boss, or the govt, or maybe it's the devs, or was it brad, or god?

Definitely not you though

[solleks]

it was brad imo

[Nomadic Plainswalker]

Just when you thought the sense of entitlement and level of whining could not get any worse among this population, it goes to a whole new level.

[fadetree]

I think I already answered this pretty solidly: remove thresholds, use artificial GMs instead.

Instead of /list creating a "threshold requirement" (no sleep for days), it would work exactly like showing up for a player-agreement-roll (for Scout, Shady Goblin, etc.). You indicate you want to be a part of the roll with /list, and then you wait for the mob to pop: when it does you get a "roll" to get that mob.

Furthermore, I'd argue that this sort of mechanism should be used on every "competed for" mob, not just legacy item mobs. Why shouldn't (say) Hadden work the same way?

Players who play P99 16 hours a day have the exact same chance of winning any individual roll as the players who play P99 16 minutes a day ... but the person showing up for 16 hours of rolls in a row is of course far more likely to get the item.

Would the winner be the only person able to damage the mob? Would it be loot locked to them? What if they were killing it 'for a friend' or an alt? What would prevent a guild from showing up in force each time and then just awarding the item later to whomever they want?
This is one of the more unclassic suggestions I've heard. Why not just hand out the items...make a NPC that will just give you the contested item when you hail it? Do that for everything people fight over, and there ya go, problem solved....and game over, because as soon as everyone got their little prized items, they would get bored and wander off.
Your (the OP, and various people in the thread, and not just Loramin) take-away from a world wide deadly pandemic is...waaaa now I can't get my stuff I want? But, but...I always wanted it it! How about you guys get over your ridiculous whining and just play the damn game. No, you aren't going to get everything you want. If you don't like it, there are other worlds than these.

[Jimjam]

If everyone had the decency to poop in a sock, drink mountain dew and not wash then water utility wouldn't even be an essential employment.

Big sip for OP.

[Gatorsmash]

I work for American Water (water utility) in Pennsylvania.

The Pandemic gave so many players unlimited time to /list for a legacy item.

a little rough math:

10 players on the list when I show up as #11

2 PH spawns per hour

*maybe* a 20% chance for assassin to spawn

*Maybe* a 20% chance for the guise to drop

So if a guise drops say, every other assassin spawn (being generous on drop rate)

That is a minimum of 30 hours straight in 1 sitting for spot #11 to get a mask

(I know that others have been lucky, or not lucky and camped 60 hours)

I have a job considered essential critical and I do not work from home. There is no chance in hell that I will even have an opportunity to /list for this item. I will not ever have 30+ hours to sit in front of my computer.

The Pandemic made all these lists go deep in player count, before the pandemic, players would log off because they had to go do grown up stuff, like work their job.

The Devs made the /list system to make the legacy loot distribution a little more fair.

The Pandemic has turned that fair system AGAINST players who cannot poopsock 30-60 hours.

The /list system has worked well. However something should be done to counter the Pandemic stay at home orders. (i don't have any good ideas aside from increasing spawn and drop rate)

The Pandemic made all these lists go deep in player count, before the pandemic, players would log off because they had to go do grown up stuff, like work their job.


Before the Pandemic, I would have had at least a CHANCE to camp a guise or manastone, but now, because I still have to work, and the rest of you do not, I'm shafted out of the item.

I don't want handouts, I don't even want things changed really, but it needs to be recognized that the Pandemic has caused every list to be 10+ players 24/7 with wait times ranging at a 24 hour minimum to upwards of 60-70 hours.

So maybe someone could come up with a solution, not a handout, a solution to address that players who can work from home, under the stay-at-home order have a MASSIVE advantage over people like me, who work a job considered Essential Critical, to even have half a chance in hell at obtaining a legacy item.

Due to the Pandemic, I have no chance at obtaining legacy items before they are removed.

Enjoy your lives at home if you can, just remember people like me make that life possible. People like me are the reason your electricity and water are still flowing during this public shutdown.

But you, you can have your guise and 8 manastones, sure.

NO1CURR. This server is for the 1%.

Anybody with an atom of awareness rolling around in their head can see the current crushing population has been detrimental for game play enjoyment and Teal should be reopened. I guess we want to join the likes of the UFC, Holly lobby and other tone deft to a global pandemic going on.

[Mblake81]

There are too many people in my massively multiplayer online game, Skyrim never treated me like this

Thats it!.. screw you guys im going to play Fallout76

[loramin]

Would the winner be the only person able to damage the mob? Would it be loot locked to them? What if they were killing it 'for a friend' or an alt? What would prevent a guild from showing up in force each time and then just awarding the item later to whomever they want?


Real question time: do you understand how "/list 1.0" currently works on Green? Because this discussion was not about implementing some entirely new system: it was about "/list 2.0".

Every person in this ten page thread understood that since no one was talking about (say) changing how damaging /list mobs works, that it wouldn't change ... everyone except you.

This is one of the more unclassic suggestions I've heard. Why not just hand out the items...make a NPC that will just give you the contested item when you hail it? Do that for everything people fight over, and there ya go, problem solved....and game over, because as soon as everyone got their little prized items, they would get bored and wander off.

Let's just list all the options, and if you still truly think your option is the most classic ... I think you're full of crap:


no rules whatsoever, ie. DPS race (one group locks down the best camps)
no rules except enforced camps (one group locks down the best camps)
"/list 1.0" ie. infinite length listing (people have to not sleep for days or trade accounts )
"/list 2.0" random chance to join list, or random chance to get mob/item once on it (anyone can get items, but they have to be lucky/patient ... just like everything else in EQ)
Fadetree solution: "make a NPC that will just give you the contested item when you hail it" (:confused:)


Your (the OP, and various people in the thread, and not just Loramin) take-away from a world wide deadly pandemic is...waaaa now I can't get my stuff I want? But, but...I always wanted it it! How about you guys get over your ridiculous whining and just play the damn game. No, you aren't going to get everything you want. If you don't like it, there are other worlds than these.

Yup, you've absolutely mastered the English language, and are able to comprehend what other humans write ... even though you're basically having a conversation with the voices in your head, instead of actually meaningfully responding to what all those other humans actually wrote.

[loramin]

Is it impossible for you to make friends? After all, that is what this game is about.

Once you have done that, they can take shifts and you can get to your goal. Where there is a will, there is a way.

You're not wrong, but this response in this particular thread seems to miss the larger point.

Would you rather have to "make friends" ... that you can trust to give your account information to, and then coordinate clicking a square that pops up on the screen, non-stop, for a week straight ... or would you rather just play a damn game, and wait your turn for a chance at the item while playing?

[Mblake81]

You're not wrong, but this response in this particular thread seems to miss the larger point.

Would you rather have to "make friends" ... that you can trust to give your account information to, and then coordinate clicking a square that pops up on the screen, non-stop, for a week straight ... or would you rather just play a damn game, and wait your turn for a chance at the item while playing?

Or not get that item.

Dude, Loramin. Just straight up tell the large group of players down there to stop doing that, and to make way for OP and yourself. I mean, afterall you are doing all this FQ so surely you deserve a stone for it.

Just suggest Instances or splitting the server into like 3-4, because even with TEAL put back in there will be complaints of a group there.. only its not a week long but 3 days.

https://i.imgur.com/RsHhWie.gif

[Mblake81]

yeah, i forgot its all my fault.

Carry on with your FQ

[loramin]

Yeah, when a bunch of people are talking about changing a system to make it better for all players on a server, it's totally normal to attack one of them personally, or to attack "straw men" instead of their actual points (eg. you're the only person talking about instances in this whole thread).

Another solid contribution Blake.

[Cen]

My perfect MMO is a sci fi MMO like AO, but it has like a lot of instanced content with cool gear and stuff, but also has open world non instanced dungeons and raid content with superbosses that are going to rarely be killed by players. I kind of like both of those things together.

I don't make games though I play em :D

I want an AO sequel more than an EQ sequel tbh ;D It was sort of the inbetween world of theme park and sandbox, and quests were still item based like EQ and not the weird question mark crap I hate

[ldgo86]

My perfect MMO is a sci fi MMO like AO, but it has like a lot of instanced content with cool gear and stuff, but also has open world non instanced dungeons and raid content with superbosses that are going to rarely be killed by players. I kind of like both of those things together.

I don't make games though I play em :D

I want an AO sequel more than an EQ sequel tbh ;D It was sort of the inbetween world of theme park and sandbox, and quests were still item based like EQ and not the weird question mark crap I hate

I want to completely reskin all of EQ classic into a Sci Fi theme. Like a combination of EQ and SWG. That is my perfect game. :p

[Mblake81]

My perfect MMO is a sci fi MMO like AO, but it has like a lot of instanced content

AO has instanced zones. I wasn't suggest instances, I was saying the Barbarian should because he holds no cards worth anything.. what else is he going to do.

And hard pass on instance mmorpgs. The lengths people go to and the mess of a game they make because they can't handle not getting a pixel. Reminds me of the twerpy kid on social media talking about "If I play a game then I deserve to get anything in it and see all of the content. I paid for it"

So far removed from anything interesting. Get your ticket for the pleasure cruise, dab the sunscreen on your nose and kick back.

[loramin]

I want to completely reskin all of EQ classic into a Sci Fi theme. Like a combination of EQ and SWG. That is my perfect game. :p

SWG pre-overhaul was actually a pretty great game ... once they finished it. It was just too bad that it got released so incomplete, and wasn't finished fast enough, so most people left it early.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

My perfect MMO is a sci fi MMO like AO, but it has like a lot of instanced content with cool gear and stuff, but also has open world non instanced dungeons and raid content with superbosses that are going to rarely be killed by players. I kind of like both of those things together.

I don't make games though I play em :D

I want an AO sequel more than an EQ sequel tbh ;D It was sort of the inbetween world of theme park and sandbox, and quests were still item based like EQ and not the weird question mark crap I hate
TBH the only MMO I've enjoyed as much as EQ was Vanguard.

If they'd had another year of development before being forced to release VG would've been a damned near perfect MMO.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

SWG pre-overhaul was actually a pretty great game ... once they finished it. It was just too bad that it got released so incomplete, and wasn't finished fast enough, so most people left it early.

Yup! Same with Vanguard. These companies don't realise that spending the extra time+money to release a complete game would've netted them far greater profits in the long run!

But shareholders don't understanding gamers enough to realize that. So many MMOs failed for the exact same reason, though, that you'd think someone would've caught the pattern there.....

[Canelek]

I beta tested AO. It was a pretty awesome start to Funcom's string of failures.

(I really would love to see at least a spiritual sequel to AO.)

The Star Wars MMO was gorgeous, with fantastic stories, but was a bit too on-rails. Hutball was fantastic. No endgame content available by the time everyone max-leveled though.

Neverwinter was a swing and miss, despite player-built content. That D&D ruleset they used was overly-simplistic and shallow.

Secret World was such a cool concept with urban legends and cyber-punkish themes. But...Funcom again.

[bubur]

AO was/is so goog. 2019 best summer ever with their rk19, although it was so poorly run and mismanaged with the weirdest unclassic changes, like questable best-in-slot armor that overturned the whole classic itemization. made p99 look like a dang ol gift from gosh

not gonna lie, i'd do it all over again in AO for rk20, but FC just sold big to Tencent. no idea what's going to happen to AO

[Menenolly]

I'm considered an essential worker and I just got a guise. If you have two days off in a row and your level 35 you can get an item but maybe not a manastone. As soon as you finish your shift log into the legacy item camp and get to camping. You'll still have plenty of time to sleep for 11 or 12 hours to sort of get back to normal before work starts again.