MUST READ: XP penalty facts and Ranger/SK hate

[vaylri]

A Primer:
XP penalties (http://wiki.project1999.com/Experience)

So I have a half elf ranger and a Human SK among my many alts. All the people I play with regularly know I know the class and can play to its strengths and help plug holes where they exist, and actually advocate adding me to a group if they see I'm LFG and a melee or tank is looking for a rep, or they just need more.

One thing that makes me pull my hair out is the absolute ignorance that the community at large has about XP penalties.

Example 1:
Group consists of:
1. Human Pally (-40%)
2. High Elf Pally (-40%)
3. Troll War (-10%)
4. Ogre Shammy (-15%)
5. Halfling Clr (+5%)

Won't add a human SK because of xp penalty (-40%)

Example 2:
Group consists of:
1. Human Monk (-20%)
2. Half elf Bard (-40%)
3. Troll SK (-65%)
4. High elf CLR (0%)
5. Wood Elf Dru (0%)

Won't add a Half Elf Ranger because of xp penalty (-40%)

Seriously why can't this myth die with facts you can look at by clicking on a link?
If it's that you don't like the individual or had a problem in the past... use that as your excuse.
This XP penalty boogie man needs to be left back 1999 with your soiled pj's.

-Vayl
_________________________
Race/Class Experience Modifiers

Troll -20%
Iksar -20%
Ogre -15%
Barbarian -5%
Halfling +5%

By Class:
Paladin / Shadowknight / Ranger / Bard -40%
Monk -20%
Wizard / Magician / Enchanter / Necromancer -10%
Rogue +9%
Warrior +10%
Exp modifiers are multiplied not added. E.g. Troll SK would be 1.4 (class) x 1.2 (race) = 1.68 or a 68% penalty.

Server Notes:

GREEN: All experience modifiers above are in place. Class experience penalties will be removed at the appropriate time in the Classic Timeline.

[encopitt]

Agreed.
So sick of trying to explain this to people. Actually got turned down by 3 different groups tonight, one in MM (with a pally and a bard), one in Unrest (group didn't want to replace their pally that was leaving cause *ranger*) and one in LGuk simply cause, "ewww ranger steals my precious pixelssss.
Give it a rest.
- encopitt

[Radish]

A Primer:
XP penalties (http://wiki.project1999.com/Experience)

So I have a half elf ranger and a Human SK among my many alts. All the people I play with regularly know I know the class and can play to its strengths and help plug holes where they exist, and actually advocate adding me to a group if they see I'm LFG and a melee or tank is looking for a rep, or they just need more.

One thing that makes me pull my hair out is the absolute ignorance that the community at large has about XP penalties.

Example 1:
Group consists of:
1. Human Pally (-40%)
2. High Elf Pally (-40%)
3. Troll War (-10%)
4. Ogre Shammy (-15%)
5. Halfling Clr (+5%)

Won't add a human SK because of xp penalty (-40%)

Example 2:
Group consists of:
1. Human Monk (-20%)
2. Half elf Bard (-40%)
3. Troll SK (-65%)
4. High elf CLR (0%)
5. Wood Elf Dru (0%)

Won't add a Half Elf Ranger because of xp penalty (-40%)

Seriously why can't this myth die with facts you can look at by clicking on a link?
If it's that you don't like the individual or had a problem in the past... use that as your excuse.
This XP penalty boogie man needs to be left back 1999 with your soiled pj's.

-Vayl


Can you elaborate on your argument? You didn't include the levels of the players and the content (ie: camp) being fought.

If we assume people are cold and calculating, then they want to maximize xp/hr and don't factor value-add for socializing. Let's analyze from that min-max perspective.

If everyone is relatively the same level, then their experience pools will differ greatly (Hybrids will have accrued more experience to reach the same level due to penalty). Borrowing from your referenced article: "Group with people who have similar xp totals to you". Therein lies the problem.

If the players with a higher penalty have similar xp totals to a group of non-hybrids, they will be lower level compared to the content. Ever see how fast healers OOM when hybrid tanks are significantly lower level compared to the mobs? Or how significant a level advantage has in overall dps? That's purely mechanics.

Do you choose a group of similarly leveled players, with the hybrids taking a larger chunk of the pie? Or do you choose a group of similar xp totals, where everyone takes an equal chunk of the pie, but the group performs poorly?

Let's discuss group composition: Ideally, you want 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 cc, the rest as dps.
In your example, Group 1 already has two tanks (both paladins). Adding an SK isn't ideal since the role has already been filled. The group is probably waiting for a pure dps class.
In Group 2 you could be a dps, but you take a larger chunk of exp from the pie compared to a rogue or even human monk. They already have a puller (monk/bard) and a snare (bard/druid).

Honestly, I can see why they passed in Group1. I can sympathize with them passing on Group2, but if you're as good as you claim, there's an argument to be made there. It's always a joy to play with talented players. Unfortunately, they aren't usually the ones explaining about exp penalties.

In the end, I prefer to solo because it's faster and wait until max level to group. We all play differently. That's how I play.

[Fammaden]

Both groups just wanted more DPS. They clearly don't have problems with hybrids since they both invited two already, one with two paladins for some reason, and the other even including a troll SK.

The first group has three fucking tanks, they need damage which your SK most assuredly is not.

The second group could have added you but to really maximize an already mostly solid lineup they want pure DPS. Ranger's greatest asset is for pulling, and second best contribution is tanking, snare and root parking third which they can already do without you and also have superior CC from the bard. They already have a monk to pull and an SK to tank so they need damage to fully optimize. Rangers get a lot of misinformed and undue mockery by green players, but they definitely aren't top tier DPS right now. I can't blame these guys for holding out and sticking with the five they have.

TLDR: stop crying OP, sounds like its you who doesn't understand a few things about making a group.

[Wrekt]

One day I entered Unrest on my twink Warrior. There were 4 people in the group. They told my Warrior they were leaving it at 4 so they could maximize XP. He was an Ogre Warrior so the xp penalty was extremely small. People are just this way...

Welcome to Norrath. Enjoy your stay. No, you can't join my group as a paladin or ranger because they can only be puny races and I don't want dead weight.

Consider creating a horrible class in Velious when you don't debuff your group. Hope this helps.

[Cen]

A Primer:
XP penalties (http://wiki.project1999.com/Experience)

Example 1:
Group consists of:
1. Human Pally (-40%)
2. High Elf Pally (-40%)
3. Troll War (-10%)
4. Ogre Shammy (-15%)
5. Halfling Clr (+5%)

Example 2:
Group consists of:
1. Human Monk (-20%)
2. Half elf Bard (-40%)
3. Troll SK (-65%)
4. High elf CLR (0%)
5. Wood Elf Dru (0%)



Just being a stickler here but your troll warrior, ogre shaman, and troll SK bonuses and penalty numbers aren't correct. Multiply the two together, not add. I.e. Troll Shadowkight 1.2 and 1.4, or troll warrior .9*1.2

[OuterChimp]

N00bs. All of my SKs are +50 exp bonus because i'm uber l33t.

[kjs86z]

i think its more that you're a ranger for your standard p99 green aspie

[Octopath]

Yep part of the game. It has only made my journey to 50 as a ranger that much better. Every time I was skipped over or denied a group, I got a little tougher.

Let the weak enjoy their easy to play core shit classes. We will continue to be the few, the proud, the mediocre.

[Veikuri]

Sounds like you don't fully understand group composition. You would have more of a point if both groups had limited amounts of exp pentalities, but it looks like neither of your classes mesh well with the groups in question. It's great you're a good SK/Ranger, but that doesn't offset class limitations.

Why on earth would you invite a SK to a group that has a PAL, PAL, WAR composition with no enchanter/bard for mana regen?

Never understood the menatality of adding someone to a group that can't cary it's weight in a group or boggles down the group as a whole all for the "social" aspect of the game.

[mzl0011]

I prefer to be in a group with 5 mages and a chanter.

[Fammaden]

I prefer to be in a group with 5 mages and a chanter.

Forget rangers and hybrid penalties, this is the actual classic toxicity.

[Veikuri]

Forget rangers and hybrid penalties, this is the actual classic toxicity.

What's wrong with preferring mage burns?

[Danth]

Should also remember to point out that character level plays a role in experience rates as well. Higher-level Warrior can take more of a group's experience than a lower-level Ranger. Unfortunately, crusading against experience rate misconceptions feels like a losing battle within this community. Many players seem uninterested in learning the ins-in-outs beyond the bare minimum required to make a character function at a basic level. I get the impression that such folks learn "hybrid bad!" and don't want to be confused by further facts. You should expect this situation to take an even more comical turn once Kunark is out and Iksar Monks will fail to attract the same sort of discrimination in spite of their 44% penalty which exceeds that of Paladins or Rangers.

I give the original poster some leeway on the group composition because he specifically says he was excluded due to experience, not due to class. Presumably someone told him it was due to experience because it'd be a strange assumption in light of the seeming class redundancies in those groups.

Danth

[Mblake81]

You should expect this situation to take an even more comical turn once Kunark is out and Iksar Monks will fail to attract the same sort of discrimination in spite of their 44% penalty which exceeds that of Paladins or Rangers.

mage burns

https://i.imgur.com/GtCfFXY.gif

[Zephire]

OP #1 reason I didn't roll a ranger. I played on on Brell in 99 and leveled him all the way to 65 over the years. The HOURS spent in a zone spamming /ooc "40 Rng LFG" checking on lists ect... I won't do it again unless something magical happens where people realize that it's not that big of a deal

[Bardp1999]

Hybrid XP penalty's are rough and really do slow down an XP group. Your examples just highlight how fucked hybrids are (especially if many are in group). If you think its bad now, wait until 50-60 when the XP grind is at its realest. Good luck grouping on that Ranger or Bard! The tank hybrids have an advantage in that groups actually need tanks.

Rangers and Bards are especially fucked since they are basically 'optional' classes in every situation possible (IE they dont do anything very well another class cant do better)

On Blue before the penalties were removed there hybrid hate was at an all time high, when Kunark hits Green we will be having a renaissance of that era. Better make friends and enjoy duo/trios of under utilized camps.

[Bardp1999]

And if you are gong to make a rant at least get the math right. XP modifiers are multiplied, not added, so a Troll Shadowknight's modifier would be 1.4 x 1.2 = 1.68, a 68% penalty.

it becomes easy to see why no one wants to join a group consisting of

Troll SK
Dwarf Pally
Wood Elf Bard
Ogre Shaman
Human Ranger

[Tarsonis]

There are only 2 reasons to make and lvl a hybrid. Legacy item Guise and Jboots. Once you get those at lvl 35 you promptly drop your hybrid into long term stasis till veli comes out. You should have been making and lvling your hybrids at green server start date because the people playing cared a lot less about min/max and tanks were super rare since everyone went magi and got stuck on the whole research pet thing so they took any tank/melee they could into group.

I lvl'd a Paladin first, Ranger second, Ogre SK third, Ogre Warrior 4th, and my Rogue is my main now....all have Guise (except rogue) and Jboots (except ranger)…

One week till Legacy items are removed. Either use your home time wisely during this Covid19 mess by staying home and grinding it out to get your mask and boots or shelve your hybrids and play a non-penalized class to main till veli drops.

P.S - The lists are going to be so long this last week you might as well shelve the hybrid now.
Foolish fool

[Balimon]

Yes we all get how the penalties work, but what you don't get is that adding a hybrid that is at the group's level or higher significantly lowers everyone else's piece of the 'experience pie'. The only time you won't affect the group's experience is if you are lower than the average level of the group.

You picked hard mode dude. You picked a class that takes twice as long to level, has the potential to slow down the group, and solo's mediocre or poorly. You knew what you were getting into, you obviously know enough about exp to complain about it here.

Why are you mad at people ( who also understand how exp works ) who prefer not to exp at the same slower rate as you?

/boggle

[turbosilk]

OP create your own group problem solved.

[BlackBellamy]

Sometimes I log my ogre sk on and be popping the guise back and forth so I could look at myself in my full suit of rubicite and I forget I'm not anon so I'll start to get these annoying tells from faraway places.

Hey man we need a tank.

Can you come to wherever?

Bitch please. You send a porter for ME. Also, what's your cleric's name cause I don't accept heals from scrubs.

Beating down these requests is a full-time job I tell you.

[f2pelerin1182]

I never even considered the Exp penalties when forming groups or finding replacements, it doesn't really bother me - I'd rather just have people to group with.

[ewjax]

I thought XP penalties only affected that player. Is it true that XP penalties affect the entire group's XP awarded for any kill?

[magnetaress]

This is why its best to form static groups with your friends and play on Red99 where there is an insane bonus.

[Hazek]

I thought XP penalties only affected that player. Is it true that XP penalties affect the entire group's XP awarded for any kill?

Exp is split among group members and whoever has the highest total exp from level one gets the biggest cut. So that can either be a hybrid or someone 2+ levels higher.

[Danth]

I thought XP penalties only affected that player. Is it true that XP penalties affect the entire group's XP awarded for any kill?

To clear up potential misunderstanding: On P1999-Blue experience penalties are not shared with the rest of the group. This is likely why you think that they're player only. On P1999-Green experience penalties DO affect the rest of the group. The reason is because in the original game experience was changed (to non-shared) in early Velious when the class penalties were removed. As Hazek says, experience is divided based on total, meaning even on Green a higher-level Warrior will take more of a experience split than a lower-level hybrid might.

Danth

[Tethler]

I think I've only had 1 group turn me away so far and 2 or 3 times people in group (after I joined) about hybrid xp penalty.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Yep part of the game. It has only made my journey to 50 as a ranger that much better. Every time I was skipped over or denied a group, I got a little tougher.

Let the weak enjoy their easy to play core shit classes. We will continue to be the few, the proud, the mediocre.

I won't even hesitate to invite an appropriately-leveled Ranger. But I'm sure as hell not gonna spend a night in a group with three or four hybrids. The difference in XP/hour with three hybrids vs one (or none) is HUGE.

[Wrekt]

I won't even hesitate to invite an appropriately-leveled Ranger. But I'm sure as hell not gonna spend a night in a group with three or four hybrids. The difference in XP/hour with three hybrids vs one (or none) is HUGE.

Yeah, this is absolutely rational.

But wait for all the stubborn, mathematically-challenged and inconsiderate other players to tell you that you're wrong for valuing your time.

Ever wonder why people have leave suddenly when you invite a few hybrids? It's because experience all but stopped.

[Jimjam]

The more time spent playing EQ the better, after 20 years of it I realise I don't need to rush for the endline!

[magnetaress]

Experience penalties do not matter on red99. Rangers can fear Kite in EW, Iceclad, WW, and they can use that windstriker bow from sky with that awsome proc )

Also u can take ur time there and no one will hurry u along

[Kanuvan]

fact is your group is trash if it doesnt have a sk or pal in it so the h8 is only from stacking which doesnt make any sense to begin with, relying on pets to hold aggro is for people who like /ooc'ing for rezes every 5 minutes, having a good sk in your group is going to make the xp as smooth as butter

hybrids are gr8 but having more than 1 is just stupid, the hybrids of classic eq are tanks/pullers and nothing more and you only need 1 of those , monk to pull hybrid to tank

[fadetree]

The original group sharing mechanism was intended to help groupmates level at the same rate. In a full group that is the same level and the same earned exp amount and the same race/class, everyone would get an equal split. Let's say they all just dinged before the kill and are all at 0% to the next level. Let's also say the mob was worth 12% of the amount needed for next level. They will all get exactly 2% each on the kill. If they continue that way, they will all ding at the same time.
However, if one of them is 1 level ahead (but at the same amount to next level, i.e. 0%), his or her distance to the next level is larger because needed exp amounts for the next level are larger than the level before. In order for them all to 'travel' the same distance to the next level on a kill, the other 5 members get 1.8% each and the one who is a level ahead gets 2.10% of the exp from the kill. If they stay together for the whole level they will all ding at the same time again, but that time will be longer than if they were at the same level.
Add in the ridiculous hybrid and racial penalties, and you can see that the 'distance to the next level' is much larger for some than for others, and the earned exp is split according to that distance, again to keep them all travelling the same distance to next level.
However, there are offsetting benefits to having groups of mixed levels, races and class. If your group doesn't have a decent tank, for instance, letting a Paladin tank for you might increase the kill rate by quite a bit. Letting a higher level Bard CC for you might also increase the kill rate. Having a ranger pull outdoors might as well. So, it's not totally cut and dried, there are a mix of factors to consider.
And, most importantly of all, if you are extremely concerned about your leveling rate and all you want to do is get to max level as fast as you possibly can, you are not really doing everquest right, in my opinion. I think they should have just not shown the exp bar at all.

[solleks]

i agree the class/race XP penalty is pretty stupid. after all this is a more classic than classic server so it really shouldn't be an issue

REMOVE XP PENALTIES ASAP

[magnetaress]

The original group sharing mechanism was intended to help groupmates level at the same rate. In a full group that is the same level and the same earned exp amount and the same race/class, everyone would get an equal split. Let's say they all just dinged before the kill and are all at 0% to the next level. Let's also say the mob was worth 12% of the amount needed for next level. They will all get exactly 2% each on the kill. If they continue that way, they will all ding at the same time.
However, if one of them is 1 level ahead (but at the same amount to next level, i.e. 0%), his or her distance to the next level is larger because needed exp amounts for the next level are larger than the level before. In order for them all to 'travel' the same distance to the next level on a kill, the other 5 members get 1.8% each and the one who is a level ahead gets 2.10% of the exp from the kill. If they stay together for the whole level they will all ding at the same time again, but that time will be longer than if they were at the same level.
Add in the ridiculous hybrid and racial penalties, and you can see that the 'distance to the next level' is much larger for some than for others, and the earned exp is split according to that distance, again to keep them all travelling the same distance to next level.
However, there are offsetting benefits to having groups of mixed levels, races and class. If your group doesn't have a decent tank, for instance, letting a Paladin tank for you might increase the kill rate by quite a bit. Letting a higher level Bard CC for you might also increase the kill rate. Having a ranger pull outdoors might as well. So, it's not totally cut and dried, there are a mix of factors to consider.
And, most importantly of all, if you are extremely concerned about your leveling rate and all you want to do is get to max level as fast as you possibly can, you are not really doing everquest right, in my opinion. I think they should have just not shown the exp bar at all.

agreed put a piece of black tape over it

and

there are options other than grouping for 'fastest leveling available'

there are certain demographics groups and guilds though which will always roll a druid an enchanter and a cleric and then proceed to power lvl a bard and necro, then a sham, and then try to assemble a raid force of plvld rogues and mage twinks in order to try and be the 1st to kill a mob ---- very new servers ---- both live, and not live, and different mmos too.... like wow even ... attract these 'players.... like a plague, a karana plague...

Actually I like these guys, once they've got their first kills in and have their bis geared main within a month of server opening, they are usually very helpful and cool towards the stragglers and role players. I am grateful for the people that know the game and are able to roll with their preferences and just do it their way. They aren't killing undead gnolls in EK usually unless they are there to help a friend or the lowbies on a coffee break.

[magnetaress]

i agree the class/race XP penalty is pretty stupid. after all this is a more classic than classic server so it really shouldn't be an issue

REMOVE XP PENALTIES ASAP

yes exp penalties are dumb and lower lvl players should level fast and catch up to the higher lvls in grps as well. They are there to get 'trained up' anyway.

[Alexdoubz]

Experience penalties do not matter on red99. Rangers can fear Kite in EW, Iceclad, WW, and they can use that windstriker bow from sky with that awsome proc )

Also u can take ur time there and no one will hurry u along
Is there an option to have people on ignore on the forums? Can't stand reading this desperate try red crap all these years later.

[fadetree]

Yeah that person is getting seriously annoying. I think you can, and can also report his posts.

[Fammaden]

Is there an option to have people on ignore on the forums? Can't stand reading this desperate try red crap all these years later.

Yes, but you'll still see:

Unread Today, 10:14 AM
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solleks
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magnetaress
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[magnetaress]

Yeah that person is getting seriously annoying. I think you can, and can also report his posts.

Yes, but you'll still see:

Unread Today, 10:14 AM
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solleks
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magnetaress
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Is there an option to have people on ignore on the forums? Can't stand reading this desperate try red crap all these years later.


I am not breaking the rules. I am not promoting red99 over any other server, just promoting it because it's an awesome box where I play.
I am not putting green down.
Sorry you are upset.
Please ignore me. I am very grateful you can if that is what you need to feel safe and happy.
Red99 has 70-90 really awesome, really friendly OG players on it with ZERO /lists. Come get some dragons.

[fadetree]

Spam posting is against the rules, although the definition of 'spamming' would be up to the devs. If your stuff got reported enough they might take action. How about you just realize that you could stop talking about red constantly in the green forum? Would that make you feel safe and happy?

[Gustoo]

Play red, then they have the choice to invite you or maybe battle you. Or kill you.

Its better. no one ever talked about these things.

Not grouping with a hybrid for xp penality reasons is pretty terribal.

Plus you get the +100 exp bonus for that 6th member so it makes them basically free.

Only exception is when there are just not enough mobs to go around.

[magnetaress]

Spam posting is against the rules, although the definition of 'spamming' would be up to the devs. If your stuff got reported enough they might take action. How about you just realize that you could stop talking about red constantly in the green forum? Would that make you feel safe and happy?

Ya I talk about way more than red, sometimes red pops up in the discussion. If you can't handle that, maybe you are the one that needs some GM intervention? It's not nice to come on these forums and threaten random strangers with bannings and try to doll out beatings.

I didn't ever do anything to you. I guess if you woke up upset, I can forgive you. I am sorry you felt the need to:

Berate me
Belittle red
Threaten me
Attack my integrity by accusing me of spamming
and

Just generally be unhappy. Wish it weren't like this for you, this is genuine, unconditional pity.

Not arrogance.

I humbly wish you would be free of the pain you bare.

[fadetree]

Oh hush, you are using a ridiculously old forum strategy. If you want to forumquest, at least upgrade your tactics. You know perfectly well that you're spamming crap about red in almost every thread. Trying to be ironic with fake sympathy is lame.

Just stop spamming stuff about red.

[Kohedron]

You dare make a group run 1% less efficient after the nosepicker sat and waited 4 hours for a group?

[magnetaress]

Oh hush, you are using a ridiculously old forum strategy. If you want to forumquest, at least upgrade your tactics. You know perfectly well that you're spamming crap about red in almost every thread. Trying to be ironic with fake sympathy is lame.

Just stop spamming stuff about red.

I don't appreciate the personal attacks and insinuations my character is less than stellar.

That being said I understand you feel like I am just trying to pick a fight over which servers are better and which players are better.

I assure you that I believe every server and player has their individual merits and preferences. I have an alt on green, and while it is an odd culture for me to visit, I find it charming and entertaining.

All that said, I still love red99 the best and believe it's important to let others know how much fun and different it can be to the PvE only options.

[ewjax]

The original group sharing mechanism was intended to help groupmates level at the same rate.

I understand the math behind the weighting calculations for exp for each player, I was just unaware that racial/class penalties were included in the calculation.

If that's true (and I guess it is), I can at least understand WHY people would be hesitant to add a hybrid. Although, as stated, it's not the only factor, but at least I understand why it really IS a factor.

Interesting side note: if one applies this same logic, the "I don't want to group with someone who needs a lot of exp to level" logic, people should be way MORE hesitant to add someone currently in a hell level to the group. Even being in level 30, the easiest hell level, a much larger exp impact than being a hybrid. See attached plot.

Just sayin. I don't hear anyone making that argument. Makes me think any prejudice against hybrids on the exp penalty basis is largely based on emotion and less on facts/data.

[cd288]

Agreed.
So sick of trying to explain this to people. Actually got turned down by 3 different groups tonight, one in MM (with a pally and a bard), one in Unrest (group didn't want to replace their pally that was leaving cause *ranger*) and one in LGuk simply cause, "ewww ranger steals my precious pixelssss.
Give it a rest.
- encopitt

Seems like those groups just didn’t want a Ranger in general not because of the xp penalty

[cd288]

Sounds like you don't fully understand group composition. You would have more of a point if both groups had limited amounts of exp pentalities, but it looks like neither of your classes mesh well with the groups in question. It's great you're a good SK/Ranger, but that doesn't offset class limitations.

Why on earth would you invite a SK to a group that has a PAL, PAL, WAR composition with no enchanter/bard for mana regen?

Never understood the menatality of adding someone to a group that can't cary it's weight in a group or boggles down the group as a whole all for the "social" aspect of the game.

This