Melee vs Casters

[eqravenprince]

If the population counts were like this back in 1999, what do you think Verant would have done to balance the game? I have ideas, but want to see what others think.

[magnetaress]

what are the population counts? People play casters now so they can have a main to use to twink melees, but melees will get more powerful and become more popular

There is nothing wrong with a group of 4 mages a necro, and an enchanter

No one wants to be a warrior in leather with a pair of obsidian daggers while grouping with enchanters, shams, monks, etc..

bronze has enough ac literally to make mitigation 1-50 fine until crafted/planar in classic, just have people root mobs.

[eqravenprince]

what are the population counts?

Generally melee classes is half to a quarter as much as caster classes.

People play casters now so they can have a main to use to twink melees, but melees will get more powerful and become more popular

People want to play melee, but most do not until twinked. Seems like a balance issue to me which the original devs were always trying to fix.

There is nothing wrong with a group of 4 mages a necro, and an enchanter

I agree with that. However, my point is I think the original devs would have had an issue with so few people playing melee classes.

No one wants to be a warrior in leather with a pair of obsidian daggers while grouping with enchanters, shams, monks, etc..

I wouldn't say no one, some like the pain of playing say an untwinked Troll SK. But in general I agree the majority do not.

[DMN]

If the population counts were like this back in 1999, what do you think Verant would have done to balance the game? I have ideas, but want to see what others think.


They would have fixed the bullshit exp penalty for hybrids much sooner.

[magnetaress]

The devs solution was eventually that floppy AA veteran ability that casted hots, mercenaries, and out of combat fast regen - basically wow with EQ skin.

[magnetaress]

They would have fixed the bullshit exp penalty for hybrids much sooner.

agreed it isn't worth it, that and the nerfed manapool/spell costs

[eqravenprince]

They would have fixed the bullshit exp penalty for hybrids much sooner.

Certainly would help some. Wouldn't fix the numbers for non hybrid melee classes.

[eqravenprince]

The devs solution was eventually that floppy AA veteran ability that casted hots, mercenaries, and out of combat fast regen - basically wow with EQ skin.

I agree with one thing. HP regen to match Mana regen makes a LOT of sense to balance melee vs caster population counts.

[magnetaress]

I feel like the hardest thing is melees not being able to compete with like necros for solo camps. But a dungeon geared war is pretty beastly and makes grouping funner.

[fishdaemon]

My main is war, got him to 50 around Christmas. I always had better gear than my shammy buddy. Had full bronze pgt and cold iron morning star pre 25. then i needed root to tank. at 25 i switched to 2x gnoll lariat. then i got my obsiadian shards , i bought them. Used that till 50 then i got my ykesha.

This need to twimk melee classes is just lame. Game totally give you the oppo to play melee without twinking.

how to get pp
bandits in karana give you full banded in early teens ,
run to ec buy pgt and do some befallen to early 20
move to mm/sola/uguk. i mean high 20s in mm is fs drop on almost each mob in gy, along with AC and imp.

after 35 alternate MM and lguk and you will get the drops you need and afford to buy the rest.

[magnetaress]

PGT procs are pretty legit for sure as an easy weapon to get :)

[eqravenprince]

This need to twimk melee classes is just lame. Game totally give you the oppo to play melee without twinking.


I play without twinking, it's fun and rewarding, but casters are WAY easier to play without twinking. I honestly believe if we had this discrepancy of population between the classes back in 1999, something would have been done.

[cd288]

People want to play melee, but most do not until twinked. Seems like a balance issue to me which the original devs were always trying to fix.

I disagree with this somewhat. Depends on the melee. For Warriors and Rogues, sure. The reason you're not seeing more of the other melee classes on Green right now isn't because people need to twink them to make them playable, it's because no one wants to deal with the ridiculous 40% class EXP penalty (not to mention any additional racial penalties for Trolls and Ogres).

[Hazek]

Not sure if code is wrong or if its how it was on live, but mob melee or player mitigation is broken.

For example I can't even solo an Ice Giant as a planar geared paladin and BIS weapon. And that goes for all melee, even Nagak, whos a BIS SK with lifetaps said he can't solo them either.

Same problem while leveling. Light blue and especially blue mobs at higher levels will destroy you regardless of your gear as melee.

But I understand why devs may be hesitant to change anything at this point.

[magnetaress]

Not sure if code is wrong or if its how it was on live, but mob melee or player mitigation is broken.

For example I can't even solo an Ice Giant as a planar geared paladin and BIS weapon. And that goes for all melee, even Nagak, whos a BIS SK with lifetaps said he can't solo them either.

Same problem while leveling. Light blue and especially blue mobs at higher levels will destroy you regardless of your gear as melee.

But I understand why devs may be hesitant to change anything at this point.

I'm pretty sure the biggest stuff melee routinely solod was an SG, however, rogues can intimidate HG and spectres and that was also not that hard with the lvls and gear.

Would be surprised rogues cant intimidate IG?

[Hazek]

I disagree with this somewhat. Depends on the melee. For Warriors and Rogues, sure. The reason you're not seeing more of the other melee classes on Green right now isn't because people need to twink them to make them playable, it's because no one wants to deal with the ridiculous 40% class EXP penalty (not to mention any additional racial penalties for Trolls and Ogres).

Another reason is because its best to make a farm character first because melee can't solo any high end camps like Guk, IG's, Nox, etc.

I made a paladin because I thought, "they have soothe, 2h damage, tankiness, self heals, double stun, buffs, roots etc, so its gotta be a strong solo melee class." Without knowing that mob damage is broken and melee still take a ridiculous amount of damage regardless of gear.

Now I wish I had a caster.

[Gatorsmash]

People acting like this is some type of 1999 fucking mystery....

Everyone wants to be self sufficient. The class population scales directly from this. Only modifier is the hybrid penalty and people now twinking out those less self efficient melees

[Kanuvan]

i can barely solo some dark blues and most light blues on monk (best melee solo class in classic without 20k plat twink) using a incombat bandage exploit that was probably never intended, and i still am at 10% life sometimes to generic non casting mobs in sola

and on the flip side i need 10x as much plat to buy haste/hp/str/ac gear and "catch up" to caster ability to solo

i never knew what the developers were thinking when they designed melee vs caster in classic eq, the only thing melee has going is that its 50x more rewarding to get a new piece of gear where as with caster you notice literally nothing with new gear, they severely overestimated melee ability to "outlast" mobs with endless auto attacks that dont require any resource, its only good for raiding or if twinked

[Jibartik]

They would do what Wow Did, give melee players "spells" with names like "gut punch"

The dang rogue in that game was the enchanter lol

[Cen]

So I just picked my ranger back up and im on a blitz journey to level 35 in hopes for mask before times up and then beyond when the cool solusel quests come. I'm level 11 and hitting it hard. My ultimate tip for those who dont like the class pops.. Invite hybrids because they are awesome especially me gooby pls I harmony / tank / doops for you good plz thanks :D

But seriously I do think the balance is weird at times, Classic it's not too bad except in the Kunark era, then its good during velious for the most part.

[magnetaress]

Progressing a rogue from classic scrap to kunark BIS is really rewarding on a populated box with active grouping.

[Cen]

Another reason is because its best to make a farm character first because melee can't solo any high end camps like Guk, IG's, Nox, etc.

I made a paladin because I thought, "they have soothe, 2h damage, tankiness, self heals, double stun, buffs, roots etc, so its gotta be a strong solo melee class." Without knowing that mob damage is broken and melee still take a ridiculous amount of damage regardless of gear.

Now I wish I had a caster.

Whats funny is I have a little of both, and on my melee characters I felt the same way.. Its like your still made of paper. Then I'm like F it, back to Wizard. Then you hear the bone crunches and your lifebar vanish instantly and realize.. Actually melee do mitigate quite a lot.. Its just these NPC fuckers are like hyper blending machines lol. So unfair. Even their magic usage is unfair. We are essentially all leveling mostly from mobs who cant use magic who we are desperately trying to simply not take ANY hits from and thats essentially the way the game is balanced. They never really figured out the whole combat / mitigation thing, defensive discipline is sort of an easy to calculate bandaid being used as a percentage and all

[Expediency]

Hybrids are underpowered anyway and that 40% penalty is among the worst ideas ever implemented in a mmo. War and rogue cant solo and can be very boring if youre grinding.

That leaves monk and there are plenty of those.

[DMN]

Hybrids are underpowered anyway and that 40% penalty is among the worst ideas ever implemented in a mmo. War and rogue cant solo and can be very boring if youre grinding.

That leaves monk and there are plenty of those.

It was actually the introduction of disciplines, particularly the stupidly overpowered warrior ones where they went wrong. Originally SK/paladins were 95% warriors(and could easily replace a warrior for anything, including raid content )and 50% cleric/necro. But then the warrior disciplines showed up. that is what screwed everything up.

[Cen]

It was actually the introduction of disciplines, particularly the stupidly overpowered warrior ones where they went wrong. Originally SK/paladins were 95% warriors(and could easily replace a warrior for anything, including raid content )and 50% cleric/necro. But then the warrior disciplines showed up. that is what screwed everything up.

I concur for the most part with this. In classic, in terms of performance, hybrids are actually pretty good!

[Jibartik]

So I just picked my ranger back up and im on a blitz journey to level 35 in hopes for mask before times up and then beyond when the cool solusel quests come. I'm level 11 and hitting it hard. My ultimate tip for those who dont like the class pops.. Invite hybrids because they are awesome especially me gooby pls I harmony / tank / doops for you good plz thanks :D

But seriously I do think the balance is weird at times, Classic it's not too bad except in the Kunark era, then its good during velious for the most part.

It's satisfying I was 100% right when I guessed after I saw you post about ranger weapons the other day.

[Gustoo]

Balance is what it is, you have to play passionately.

All the classes are cool. Some are less efficient and some solo not-so-well.

Hybrids took a best of both worlds penalty and on top of that are masters of very little. Still they are fun characters to be.

No twinking needed game is mad easy just long. Enjoy the journey.

[Cen]

It's satisfying I was 100% right when I guessed after I saw you post about ranger weapons the other day.

Hehe, I have been clericing and got my guise on him so now I need to finish what i originally planned. Hes a wood elf now but I'm chugging along. I had trouble at release due to the crowds. I need to figure out a magic boots situation though and decide on what SNES sprite works best for a ranger lol

[Zal22]

Not sure if code is wrong or if its how it was on live, but mob melee or player mitigation is broken.

For example I can't even solo an Ice Giant as a planar geared paladin and BIS weapon. And that goes for all melee, even Nagak, whos a BIS SK with lifetaps said he can't solo them either.

Same problem while leveling. Light blue and especially blue mobs at higher levels will destroy you regardless of your gear as melee.

But I understand why devs may be hesitant to change anything at this point.

This guy...

"I'll just roll an Erudite Paladin so i can solo camps at 50!"

Where have you been for 20 years?

[Gustoo]

Balance is flawless. Game is flawless and 100% complete, perfection.

Don't make me call the pope.

[Videri]

Hehe, I have been clericing and got my guise on him so now I need to finish what i originally planned. Hes a wood elf now but I'm chugging along. I had trouble at release due to the crowds. I need to figure out a magic boots situation though and decide on what SNES sprite works best for a ranger lol

Any update on this thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347725), Cen?

[Cen]

Any update on this thread (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=347725), Cen?

The last few of my posts IS the update ;P I only had one original plan on Green before the legacy stuff disappeared: Get a guise on a ranger or paladin, probably a Ranger. Also make a Cleric since my blue cleric was only level 5.

I got a guise on my cleric yesterday, which I made on January 28th. I didn't really strive for a guise so much on the cleric, but my ranger is going now. Will I be able to do that again as quickly on him? Nope, because 1. I can't solo a ranger probably as much as a cleric (this could be wrong) and 2. Rangers take 40% longer to level

.. but there's more then that much time until May.

[magnetaress]

I solo'd a ranger to 38 on red by just doing snare, root, dot kiting and jousting and bow kiting b4 velious mob fear thing. And getting the few ranger weapons, like the root sword. GG

but I think exp penalty may not have been in

it took a few months irl

[Cen]

I solo'd a ranger to 38 on red by just doing snare, root, dot kiting and jousting and bow kiting b4 velious mob fear thing. And getting the few ranger weapons, like the root sword. GG

but I think exp penalty may not have been in

it took a few months irl

I was offered an amazing deal on two ebs and runed oak bow and the bow is amazing. Its like a whole new game for low levels. I dreaded the levels below 20 since dwda comes so late for rangers but this is going to help me blast off to the fun 20-40 levels where rangers are incredible.

[Bardp1999]

If the population counts were like this back in 1999, what do you think Verant would have done to balance the game? I have ideas, but want to see what others think.

They would launch an expansion with weapons that make Melee the dominate damage dealers, and they would add in an item that gives insane health regeneration, they would call it Kunark

[vanix]

i main a monk and i can assure you that melee aren't as gimp as you seem to be lead to believe. In a group the other night with a bunch of melee it was one of the best groups i have been in. There seem to be a TON of warriors on green, as well as a good amount of SK's and Pallys with the sprinkle of monks and rangers and rogues tossed in I think a lot of people just started with casters because they are easier to play in the beginning which they totally are i guess.

[Bigsham]

Kunark made melee viable

until then melee are stupid : )

Maybe a SK for a tank thats about it

[Kanuvan]

you can have a melee heavy group and have great endless xp with no downtime, too many casters and you have problems with lack of tanks and downtime even with clarities, it is very true the best xp groups are heavy melee based

melee is great for groups, but you need the gear first, and to get the gear you want to solo and to solo you want to...not be melee, but eventually you can get the gear from just farming plat off bandits and then youre set, its really not as bad as people make it out to be, EQ1 players arent exactly known for their quick wits and prowess when it comes to these things so they take the easy road everytime, melee is still nice to have around in groups and nothing is worse than a caster that is sitting more than casting

[magnetaress]

you can have a melee heavy group and have great endless xp with no downtime, too many casters and you have problems with lack of tanks and downtime even with clarities, it is very true the best xp groups are heavy melee based

melee is great for groups, but you need the gear first, and to get the gear you want to solo and to solo you want to...not be melee, but eventually you can get the gear from just farming plat off bandits and then youre set, its really not as bad as people make it out to be, EQ1 players arent exactly known for their quick wits and prowess when it comes to these things so they take the easy road everytime, melee is still nice to have around in groups and nothing is worse than a caster that is sitting more than casting

:thumbs UP:

<3 ya that's how I did my rogue and a friend loned me his rubi bp was good times good times indeed

[Kpaz]

Just dinged 14 today as a Shaman. So far I have grouped with mostly other shamans while in my starting city, once I moved to the Freeport area I have seen a ridiculous amount of necros and enchanters, but I have grouped with almost each class at least once except for palidans or bards. They are MIA, only place I have seen them is in the EC tunnel.

[magnetaress]

Melees are awesome if you don't want to solo even cons or camp dungeons. Killing green after green and getting 1kp per hour on a warrior or rogue is great.

A lvl 50 melee with decent classic gear can camp some cool spots too, like in SolA.

Just don't expect to camp AC island with one. Unless you have a mage buddy who wants to help you out )

[Wallicker]

Melees are awesome if you don't want to solo even cons or camp dungeons. Killing green after green and getting 1kp per hour on a warrior or rogue is great.

A lvl 50 melee with decent classic gear can camp some cool spots too, like in SolA.

Just don't expect to camp AC island with one. Unless you have a mage buddy who wants to help you out )

Lol at 1k an hr on rogue or warrior raw plat.

[magnetaress]

Lol at 1k an hr on rogue or warrior raw plat.

I am not super hardcore at grinding plat. There are also a few nice low lvl item camps that net a decent amount of cash per-time spent.

[Wallicker]

You just said killing green after green after green and getting 1kpp per hr. A warrior or rogue could potentially do the net camp in perma and the wand camp in lfay(albeit these are perma camped and you would still need stellar RNG) outside of this there is no way possible to get 1kpp/hr on a warrior or rogue, sorry.

[magnetaress]

You just said killing green after green after green and getting 1kpp per hr. A warrior or rogue could potentially do the net camp in perma and the wand camp in lfay(albeit these are perma camped and you would still need stellar RNG) outside of this there is no way possible to get 1kpp/hr on a warrior or rogue, sorry.

I don't feel like giving away my secrets to you,


SORRY!

[Wallicker]

I don't feel like giving away my secrets to you,


SORRY!

Play on red where you are the only player in highkeep and as a 50 warrior w/Rubi BP, CT sword and CoF you still wouldn’t hit 1kpp per hr

[magnetaress]

Play on red where you are the only player in highkeep and as a 50 warrior w/Rubi BP, CT sword and CoF you still wouldn’t hit 1kpp per hr

That is not the one trick that makes wallickers mad.

GG m8

[Wallicker]

Yeah sorry bud but even with 80 empty bag slots, if you factor in sell time, bank time once encumbered, kill time, recovery/respawn time you aren’t farming 1k hr raw plat on a classic war/rog.