worst class in classic

[Bhairava]

currious to know what u guys think is the worst class in classic.

many people i have seen claim rogue is, some ranger, some even say warrior (?)

i personelly like rogues, but im also maybe retarded so

[Albanwr]

Worst should be the one you the least fun with. Some people will exclude you based on what they think is the worst, and that is just stupid

[Kavious]

Druids

[Wallicker]

Enchanter, Shaman, Bard, Necro. Do yourself a favor and never play any of these wildly powerful classes.

PS druids and mages suck too.

[cd288]

Wizard

Druid post like level 35

[Smellybuttface]

In Classic, you can say either the class itself, or I’d argue factoring in whatever exp penalty they bring to a group should also be considered.

With that in mind:

-Ranger tops the list. 40% exp penalty, low utility in a group beyond snare, lowest damage out of the pure DPS classes. People will argue “but a Ranger can tank if none of the other 3 are available! They have more sustained DPS than a Wizard!”

*Only in those situations where none of the 3 main tanks can be found. Wizards have amazing utility in raids, whereas Rangers can either be track bots or take death touches. In later expansions (PoP and beyond) Rangers get some amazing ranged DPS options with AA’s and can start really racking it up in parses, but sadly that’s outside the scope of P99.

[Castle2.0]

My ranger will probably be #1 DPS on Green Server across entire population during vanilla era... so don't go knocking rangers.

[Smellybuttface]

[QUOTE=Castle2.0;3086402]My ranger will probably be #1 DPS on Green Server across entire population during vanilla era... so don't go knocking rangers.[/QUOTE

He said during Classic. From Hate/Fear/Sky. Warrior’s get one of the highest DPS weapons in all of Classic (Fear) - Monsoon.

I’m saying pound for pound all things being equal (equal planar gearing across classes), the Ranger has the lowest utility and medium-tier damage compared to pure DPS classes. Maybe you’ll have some insane luck, but we’re talking classes judged on their own against the others in Classic.

[aaezil]

Warriors go from one of the worst to one of the best in kunark/velious so although they are terribad now their time will come i s’pose

[Keebz]

In Classic, you can say either the class itself, or I’d argue factoring in whatever exp penalty they bring to a group should also be considered.

With that in mind:

-Ranger tops the list. 40% exp penalty, low utility in a group beyond snare, lowest damage out of the pure DPS classes. People will argue “but a Ranger can tank if none of the other 3 are available! They have more sustained DPS than a Wizard!”


Aside from snare, there's root, harmony for pulling, SOW if you need it and perhaps the best snap aggro in flame lick. There's a bunch other utility spells as well (invis, damage shields, buffs, cancel magic, etc.). There are lots of bad rangers that may give you the idea they just auto-attack and cast the occasional snare, however.

Honestly, the hybrids are all pretty good in classic-it's Kunark where they really suffer.

Warrior and rogue are both pretty bad in classic due to having few abilities and poor itemization. Monks are also weak, at least in comparison to later. Wizards of course are also a pretty meh grouping class, but have some decent utility.

[Wrekt]

I would take a warrior, rogue or wizard over ANY hybrid because xp > all.

[cd288]

I would take a warrior, rogue or wizard over ANY hybrid because xp > all.

If that character is a few levels higher than you they take more of your EXP than a hybrid close to your level does

[drdrakes]

If that character is a few levels higher than you they take more of your EXP than a hybrid close to your level does

For a ranger to be useful they def need to be higher level than you, usually by at least 10 levels.

[Bardp1999]

Bards are fairly useless in classic IMO

[Natewest1987]

If that character is a few levels higher than you they take more of your EXP than a hybrid close to your level does

Every time I end up having to group with a hybrid, they are usually more than a few levels ahead of me. They’ll work their way into groups and then stay at that scene well past the point of robbing everyone else of their fair xp. It’s not uncommon to see hybrids clinging to goblins in HK from 35-37, where as most other classes seem to move on by then.

You are also probably far more likely to end up with more than one hybrid during your session after you open the gates for the first.

It’s really a dirty thing the original developers did to hybrids. The whole thought process being adding a penalty to them to offset additional kill speed would be great if mobs didn’t die seconds after they spawn and weren’t attached to fixed timers anyway.

[Jimjam]

Probably one of the pet classes as they seem inclined to solo, which is antithetical to the core concept of player interaction in mmos and rpgs.

[DMN]

Every time I end up having to group with a hybrid, they are usually more than a few levels ahead of me. They’ll work their way into groups and then stay at that scene well past the point of robbing everyone else of their fair xp. It’s not uncommon to see hybrids clinging to goblins in HK from 35-37, where as most other classes seem to move on by then.

You are also probably far more likely to end up with more than one hybrid during your session after you open the gates for the first.

It’s really a dirty thing the original developers did to hybrids. The whole thought process being adding a penalty to them to offset additional kill speed would be great if mobs didn’t die seconds after they spawn and weren’t attached to fixed timers anyway.

I think that's because you are guaranteed a group there if you wait on list.

[Smellybuttface]

Every time I end up having to group with a hybrid, they are usually more than a few levels ahead of me. They’ll work their way into groups and then stay at that scene well past the point of robbing everyone else of their fair xp. It’s not uncommon to see hybrids clinging to goblins in HK from 35-37, where as most other classes seem to move on by then.

You are also probably far more likely to end up with more than one hybrid during your session after you open the gates for the first.

It’s really a dirty thing the original developers did to hybrids. The whole thought process being adding a penalty to them to offset additional kill speed would be great if mobs didn’t die seconds after they spawn and weren’t attached to fixed timers anyway.

Well the worst part is that hybrids don’t have a large inherent benefit to offset their penalty. They don’t kill faster, dont add any real amazing utility to a group. Would much rather just root the mob and let the Warrior tank it then deal with the “opened door” of multiple hybrid penalty’s.

Lessons learned: make your hybrids after Velious, go solo, or group with friends or guild mates that are fine with the exp penalty. Don’t inflict it on a group of randoms.

[kjs86z]

ranger

[Natewest1987]

Lessons learned: make your hybrids after Velious, go solo, or group with friends or guild mates that are fine with the exp penalty. Don’t inflict it on a group of randoms.

lol one more lesson:

careful who you make friends with, less you could end up with a hybrid that always wants to group with you.

[cd288]

Well the worst part is that hybrids don’t have a large inherent benefit to offset their penalty. They don’t kill faster, dont add any real amazing utility to a group. Would much rather just root the mob and let the Warrior tank it then deal with the “opened door” of multiple hybrid penalty’s.

Lessons learned: make your hybrids after Velious, go solo, or group with friends or guild mates that are fine with the exp penalty. Don’t inflict it on a group of randoms.

Definitely disagree when it comes to Bards. At least pre-when Enchanters get Clarity, that Bard regen can be huge for helping healer downtime by saving them from having to heal. In the high teens, we did a Befallen basement crawl without even having a healer just using the Bard regen and it was still pretty efficient. Once Enchanters get Clarity and the haste and slow spells just become that much better, I think Bard helpfulness goes away. But I definitely don't mind a Bard before then.

[Smellybuttface]

Definitely disagree when it comes to Bards. At least pre-when Enchanters get Clarity, that Bard regen can be huge for helping healer downtime by saving them from having to heal. In the high teens, we did a Befallen basement crawl without even having a healer just using the Bard regen and it was still pretty efficient. Once Enchanters get Clarity and the haste and slow spells just become that much better, I think Bard helpfulness goes away. But I definitely don't mind a Bard before then.

True, that is a good point. It’s much more painful at lower levels when they don’t have a good repertoire of songs but still have the penalty. Higher levels a bard with an instrument running heal song/mana regen is pretty damn strong. Have grouped with exceptional bards that can weave songs, mez adds, and keep up pulls simultaneously.

Even worse that the other hybrids have the penalty even before lvl 9, but don’t actually even get semi-decent spells till then.

[cd288]

True, that is a good point. It’s much more painful at lower levels when they don’t have a good repertoire of songs but still have the penalty. Higher levels a bard with an instrument running heal song/mana regen is pretty damn strong. Have grouped with exceptional bards that can weave songs, mez adds, and keep up pulls simultaneously.

Even worse that the other hybrids have the penalty even before lvl 9, but don’t actually even get semi-decent spells till then.

Yeah plus if you are having trouble finding an Ench (happens more than people think) those mez and haste/slow songs can be a game changer too.

[fastboy21]

Exp struggles are temporary...sucking is forever.

[Gatorsmash]

Paladin and it only goes down hill from here.

Worst DPS, once kunark hits #3 for tank agro.

[Bluedarksun]

I'd wager that each hybrid class that is scoffed at makes it into a group more times than not. I never group (by choice), and I play hybrids. I prefer to spend my time leveling than knowing a group of whiners are going to constantly run me down about an experience penalty I have no control over.

[sedrie.bellamie]

My ranger will probably be #1 DPS on Green Server across entire population during vanilla era... so don't go knocking rangers.

in black lotus? i guess top dps on fear trash is something to strive for

black lotus will never going to kill a dragon on green

[lubyen13]

If that character is a few levels higher than you they take more of your EXP than a hybrid close to your level does

You are spot on! even a 40% penalty class is usually only equivalent of 1-2 levels. 95% of players still think the "penalty" actually affects ur character by taking away X% of exp.

[cd288]

You are spot on! even a 40% penalty class is usually only equivalent of 1-2 levels. 95% of players still think the "penalty" actually affects ur character by taking away X% of exp.

I mean, technically it does. Regardless of how it works, the result is the same. The penalty is shared across the group so it indirectly takes away your EXP.

[Tiax]

Probably shaman, crappy heals, mobs die too fast to slow, no jbb

[cd288]

Probably shaman, crappy heals, mobs die too fast to slow, no jbb

Sounds like you play on Blue only

[Gatorsmash]

You are spot on! even a 40% penalty class is usually only equivalent of 1-2 levels. 95% of players still think the "penalty" actually affects ur character by taking away X% of exp.

I mean, technically it does. Regardless of how it works, the result is the same. The penalty is shared across the group so it indirectly takes away your EXP.

Its significant and I play a SK so understand the hate. The wiki has a great write up on it.

And the worst class is still Paladin.

[mycoolrausch]

Velious is Classic.

You mean vanilla? The worst class in vanilla is all of them. The game gets good in Kunark and beyond.

[Tiax]

can't beat a pally in a group imo

[Asteria]

Cleric

Rezzes ruin the spergouts and ragequit dialogues :p

[Smellybuttface]

I'd wager that each hybrid class that is scoffed at makes it into a group more times than not. I never group (by choice), and I play hybrids. I prefer to spend my time leveling than knowing a group of whiners are going to constantly run me down about an experience penalty I have no control over.

You do have control over it though, it's the group that doesn't. You had the choice of class, and you chose to play a hybrid. It's wrong to expect a group to take you in and not have that at least as a consideration.

[Smellybuttface]

Probably shaman, crappy heals, mobs die too fast to slow, no jbb

Most Shamans will never get a JBB, and their healing is usually more than adequate if they can effectively canni dance + regen. Mobs getting slowed is definitely worthwhile on raids, and on a lot of 40+ mobs.

Velious is Classic.

You mean vanilla? The worst class in vanilla is all of them. The game gets good in Kunark and beyond.

On P99, when people refer to "Classic," they are generally referring to the game pre-Kunark/Velious.

[Tenderizer]

You are spot on! even a 40% penalty class is usually only equivalent of 1-2 levels. 95% of players still think the "penalty" actually affects ur character by taking away X% of exp.

A higher level charecter steals way more xp from the group than an average level hybrid. Plus, I'm pretty sure the calc for group distro is level based and then the hybrids take their xp cut after the group is given their xp. so yes, if you have even a rogue 4 levels higher than everyone else in group they will steal more xp from the group than a hybrid of equal level.


-Ranger tops the list. 40% exp penalty, low utility in a group beyond snare, lowest damage out of the pure DPS classes. People will argue “but a Ranger can tank if none of the other 3 are available! They have more sustained DPS than a Wizard!”


penalty doesnt matter as much as you think, see above.
snare,levi,invis,root,harmony, and the many other lower level but still useful spells that can stack in some groups.

low damage? subjective, ranger with cof would do more damage than most others that have lesser haste/gear. the idea that if its not meta its not worth it permeates this server.

Ranger can tank very well in classic up to 40-45 with minimal gear and do fine. higher tier mobs are reserved for tanks' duh.

There are no bad classes, only bad players and meta fags

[Asteria]

A higher level charecter steals way more xp from the group than an average level hybrid. Plus, I'm pretty sure the calc for group distro is level based and then the hybrids take their xp cut after the group is given their xp. so yes, if you have even a rogue 4 levels higher than everyone else in group they will steal more xp from the group than a hybrid of equal level.



penalty doesnt matter as much as you think, see above.
snare,levi,invis,root,harmony, and the many other lower level but still useful spells that can stack in some groups.

low damage? subjective, ranger with cof would do more damage than most others that have lesser haste/gear. the idea that if its not meta its not worth it permeates this server.

Ranger can tank very well in classic up to 40-45 with minimal gear and do fine. higher tier mobs are reserved for tanks' duh.

There are no bad classes, only bad players and meta fags

This guy gets it!! +100 points

https://i.imgur.com/tfXGRsV.gif

[Smellybuttface]

A higher level charecter steals way more xp from the group than an average level hybrid. Plus, I'm pretty sure the calc for group distro is level based and then the hybrids take their xp cut after the group is given their xp. so yes, if you have even a rogue 4 levels higher than everyone else in group they will steal more xp from the group than a hybrid of equal level.



penalty doesnt matter as much as you think, see above.
snare,levi,invis,root,harmony, and the many other lower level but still useful spells that can stack in some groups.

low damage? subjective, ranger with cof would do more damage than most others that have lesser haste/gear. the idea that if its not meta its not worth it permeates this server.

Ranger can tank very well in classic up to 40-45 with minimal gear and do fine. higher tier mobs are reserved for tanks' duh.

There are no bad classes, only bad players and meta fags


Haven’t ever cared about meta, only my time. I mained a Ranger back in the live EQ days, so I don’t think they’re a bad class at all, but in Classic they are very underwhelming given their penalty and middle of the road DPS. Of course if they have a CoF and all BiS they’d be doing better than 50% of DPS on the server, but I’m assuming equal geared/equal level characters.

Same reason I’m skittish about the penalty is also why I wouldn’t take someone 4 levels higher than the group generally. If I’m group leader, I’m not going to make a choice that hurts the group in a benefit/burden sense. It’s unfair of me to put that on the group.

Their exp penalty is assessed on the group before experience is divvied out to everyone, not after. Wiki explains it much better than I can. It’s definitely noticeable though, especially with multiple hybrids in a group. If people are so butthurt about groups not taking the exp penalty, then they can either play a different class, solo, or only play with friends/guild mates and not a bunch of rando’s. Not saying I wouldn’t not ever take a hybrid, but given the choice between a DPS with a penalty and one without, I’ll take the one without.

[Tenderizer]

You are probably right on the xp calc, I just go by feeling and I can tell you level hurts more no matter what. If a group has chain pulls and lots of mobs you won't notice hybrid xp penalty. Same group with a ton 5 levels higher, you notice regardless of how the calc is done.

I don't know, when I was leveling it didn't seem much of a burden when another hybrid around the same level of group joined. If someone joined higher level no matter what class it killed xp so much it hurt inside.

Pro tip* make sure you are the highest level in every xp group.

[gherron]

Leveled to 50 as a ranger on green. Never really had problems with a group shutting me out due to being a hybrid or a ranger. Not sure where this fuss is coming from unless hybrid discrimination is something new on the server?

[Fragged]

A ranger walks into a bar...

LOADING... Please wait.

[Fragged]

Ever notice when you try to delete a ranger at the character select screen, it wont ask "Are you sure?" like with your other classes?

[Wrekt]

Just let the hybrids die. While they're on a corpse run, experience will be better.

All jokes aside, I don't have a huge problem with inviting a hybrid, like only one. But it's rich when they start barking orders trying to make things run more efficiently. Like, bitch, you nerfed your experience gains by choosing high elf paladin. Don't suddenly get overly concerned with efficiency now!

[Madbad]

I heard your glasses shipped 2 days ago, they should be here tomorrow before 8pm.

[Wrekt]

I heard your glasses shipped 2 days ago, they should be here tomorrow before 8pm.

?

[Wrekt]

I don't wear glasses, you fucking nerd.

[Madbad]

Welcome to Barnes and Noble, can I point you to the large print section?

[Videri]

Just let the hybrids die. While they're on a corpse run, experience will be better.

All jokes aside, I don't have a huge problem with inviting a hybrid, like only one. But it's rich when they start barking orders trying to make things run more efficiently. Like, bitch, you nerfed your experience gains by choosing high elf paladin. Don't suddenly get overly concerned with efficiency now!


You put the telescope down.

[Wrekt]

I don't wear glasses, you fucking nerd.

[Madbad]

I don't wear glasses, you fucking nerd.

[Asteria]

Just let the hybrids die. While they're on a corpse run, experience will be better.

All jokes aside, I don't have a huge problem with inviting a hybrid, like only one. But it's rich when they start barking orders trying to make things run more efficiently. Like, bitch, you nerfed your experience gains by choosing high elf paladin. Don't suddenly get overly concerned with efficiency now!


I don't wear glasses, you fucking nerd.

You: https://i.imgur.com/SIqFZew.png

[Natewest1987]

A higher level charecter steals way more xp from the group than an average level hybrid. Plus, I'm pretty sure the calc for group distro is level based and then the hybrids take their xp cut after the group is given their xp. so yes, if you have even a rogue 4 levels higher than everyone else in group they will steal more xp from the group than a hybrid of equal level.



penalty doesnt matter as much as you think, see above.
snare,levi,invis,root,harmony, and the many other lower level but still useful spells that can stack in some groups.

low damage? subjective, ranger with cof would do more damage than most others that have lesser haste/gear. the idea that if its not meta its not worth it permeates this server.

Ranger can tank very well in classic up to 40-45 with minimal gear and do fine. higher tier mobs are reserved for tanks' duh.

There are no bad classes, only bad players and meta fags

A high level rogue only has one way to fuck your xp. A high level hybrid has two. People keep comparing these variables like they’re of equal weight but they’re not. If equal levels, then a hybrid is still going to screw your group over more than a rogue would.

[Tenderizer]

:-)

[Wrekt]

A high level rogue only has one way to fuck your xp. A high level hybrid has two. People keep comparing these variables like they’re of equal weight but they’re not. If equal levels, then a hybrid is still going to screw your group over more than a rogue would.

Yep. Playing a hybrid before velious is extremely inconsiderate if you group. Don't make your poor decision my problem.

[gherron]

Yep. Playing a hybrid before velious is extremely inconsiderate if you group. Don't make your poor decision my problem.

Yeah but are you really banning all hybrids from your groups?

[Thulghor]

Sure is a lot of hybrid hate in this thread.

Anyhow, I was going to say warrior, as it bites cock to tank for groups in classic with crap like gnoll hide lariats and obsidian shards, but paladin and ranger definitely aren't doing great in this era either. I got a good laugh out of rogue as a suggestion. For a class that sucks, they sure seem popular. Can't turn a corner on blue or green without bumping into someone's rogue twink.

[Wallicker]

I generally get zero flack as hybrid being a bard.

[solleks]

Good pickup groups are all about the idiot/normie/beard sliding scale. If a ranger wants to join your pug there is high likely hood of them being an idiot. It's not 100% but it's close.

[Smellybuttface]

Yep. Playing a hybrid before velious is extremely inconsiderate if you group. Don't make your poor decision my problem.

[Atmas]

I spent sometime debating on posting something in this thread. Honestly, by this point if you haven't looked at the parsing for healing or don't understand the utility hybrids have you probably won't ever get it. Properly played hybrids will always be better group tanks than warriors and will worth it in group efficiency and time saved because of utility.

[cd288]

I spent sometime debating on posting something in this thread. Honestly, by this point if you haven't looked at the parsing for healing or don't understand the utility hybrids have you probably won't ever get it. Properly played hybrids will always be better group tanks than warriors and will worth it in group efficiency and time saved because of utility.

Eh it depends on the group. If you have someone in the group willing to root the mob each pull, then you don't really need that snap aggro from the hybrids and so a lot of the benefit of them versus a warrior goes away. Snaring ability is nice too, but other classes have that so it's not something you absolutely need a hybrid for. The only hybrid I would say is really worth the penalty is a Bard pre-level 29 when Enchanters finally get C and healer and caster downtime becomes drastically reduced. Otherwise, I'd rather have a Warrior as a tank with just rooting the mob.

[Wrekt]

Eh it depends on the group. If you have someone in the group willing to root the mob each pull, then you don't really need that snap aggro from the hybrids and so a lot of the benefit of them versus a warrior goes away. Snaring ability is nice too, but other classes have that so it's not something you absolutely need a hybrid for. The only hybrid I would say is really worth the penalty is a Bard pre-level 29 when Enchanters finally get C and healer and caster downtime becomes drastically reduced. Otherwise, I'd rather have a Warrior as a tank with just rooting the mob.

This isn't even necessary. I usually pull on my warrior. Before bringing it in, I land a few rounds of attacks. Unless someone spams slows or nukes at 100%, I have no problems holding aggro.

Play hybrids in Velious or solo with them is all I'm saying. Use all that "utility" and solo.

I agree on the bard opinion. They're on another level of usefulness.

[Atmas]

This isn't even necessary. I usually pull on my warrior. Before bringing it in, I land a few rounds of attacks. Unless someone spams slows or nukes at 100%, I have no problems holding aggro.

Play hybrids in Velious or solo with them is all I'm saying. Use all that "utility" and solo.

I agree on the bard opinion. They're on another level of usefulness.

Well people can play how they want, whether that's group or solo, hybrids have the option.

If you have a hybrid tank you don't have to wait for a warrior to build agro, people can more immediately dps or slow etc.

[Wrekt]

Well people can play how they want, whether that's group or solo, hybrids have the option.

If you have a hybrid tank you don't have to wait for a warrior to build agro, people can more immediately dps or slow etc.

Yep. And with warrior coefficients, there's no need to slow asap or blow the mob up before the dainty little HIE pally, that's encumbered by the weight of her armor alone, blows over with a gust of wind.

[Atmas]

Yep. And with warrior coefficients, there's no need to slow asap or blow the mob up before the dainty little HIE pally, that's encumbered by the weight of her armor alone, blows over with a gust of wind.

All gear being equal the healer will use more mana per mob on the warrior even with the mitigation differences.

[gherron]

Good pickup groups are all about the idiot/normie/beard sliding scale. If a ranger wants to join your pug there is high likely hood of them being an idiot. It's not 100% but it's close.

Part of this issue, specifically for rangers at least, is the wiki for gear. Prioritizing STR, Dual Wield, and DEX is great for soloing but in groups you’ll just pull a lot of threat off the tank (and waste the healer’s mana keeping the ranger alive).

[Tethler]

Part of this issue, specifically for rangers at least, is the wiki for gear. Prioritizing STR, Dual Wield, and DEX is great for soloing but in groups you’ll just pull a lot of threat off the tank (and waste the healer’s mana keeping the ranger alive).

Rangers stacking strength/dex will not be peeling off the tank with autoattacks unless they are doing something else like flame licking or casting early snares, or if the warrior has garbage weapons. In the first cast, the ranger just needs to wait longer before snaring (and to stop fucking casting flame lick in groups while not tanking).

If a difference in weapon quality is really causing the ranger to pull aggro, it is also solved by the ranger casting root and backing out to max melee range (or the tank getting their shit together and buying a decent weapon).

[Smellybuttface]

All gear being equal the healer will use more mana per mob on the warrior even with the mitigation differences.

Why would that be? Warrior’s have the best mitigation in the game. Paladin’s and SK’s aren’t decreasing the time spent killing the mob, only offering potentially faster aggro. That doesn’t have anything to do with who would be healed more. In fact, Warrior’s not only have higher mitigation, but higher DPS, equating to a faster kill on a mob. As a healer, there’s nothing that would cause the Warrior to take MORE damage than a hybrid, only multiple reasons why he would take less.

Root is an easy and accessible spell for multiple classes in EQ. Would absolutely prefer rooting a mob and let a Warrior tank it then punishing the group by accepting a 40+% exp penalty that’s chopped up across all members. Then of course the asshole that picks a Troll SK and gets butthurt over groups not bending over backwards to invite him.

[Wallicker]

if you are this concerned about Xp just limit the # of people in your group. Anything more than 3 people in a group significantly hinders exp much more than any hybrid.

[Tethler]

Why would that be? Warrior’s have the best mitigation in the game. Paladin’s and SK’s aren’t decreasing the time spent killing the mob, only offering potentially faster aggro. That doesn’t have anything to do with who would be healed more. In fact, Warrior’s not only have higher mitigation, but higher DPS, equating to a faster kill on a mob. As a healer, there’s nothing that would cause the Warrior to take MORE damage than a hybrid, only multiple reasons why he would take less.

Root is an easy and accessible spell for multiple classes in EQ. Would absolutely prefer rooting a mob and let a Warrior tank it then punishing the group by accepting a 40+% exp penalty that’s chopped up across all members. Then of course the asshole that picks a Troll SK and gets butthurt over groups not bending over backwards to invite him.

He said "even with the mitigation differences" so I don't think he's saying warriors take more damage. I'd guess it's due to inferior warrior aggro. Weak aggro causes mobs to ping-pong and dps classes have to wait longer to let loose than with a hybrid tank. Also, the people getting hit by ping-ponging mobs need to be healed, tanking cleric mana efficiency.

[cd288]

All gear being equal the healer will use more mana per mob on the warrior even with the mitigation differences.

Lol no

[Smellybuttface]

He said "even with the mitigation differences" so I don't think he's saying warriors take more damage. I'd guess it's due to inferior warrior aggro. Weak aggro causes mobs to ping-pong and dps classes have to wait longer to let loose than with a hybrid tank. Also, the people getting hit by ping-ponging mobs need to be healed, tanking cleric mana efficiency.

That’s why I was saying with root it’s much more effective. No ping-ponging, Warrior has time to get sufficient aggro, and DPS can do what they do best. I rarely factor in slow since majority of mobs die so quickly it isn’t even worth the mana cast (except for raid mobs). Snap aggro of course is faster, but generally unnecessary with the above.

[Atmas]

Why would that be? Warrior’s have the best mitigation in the game. Paladin’s and SK’s aren’t decreasing the time spent killing the mob, only offering potentially faster aggro. That doesn’t have anything to do with who would be healed more. In fact, Warrior’s not only have higher mitigation, but higher DPS, equating to a faster kill on a mob. As a healer, there’s nothing that would cause the Warrior to take MORE damage than a hybrid, only multiple reasons why he would take less.

The reason is higher dps up time. Not to mention potential mana lost on healing non-tanks. Warrior dps isn't going to make up for group dps jumping in immediately.


Root is an easy and accessible spell for multiple classes in EQ. Would absolutely prefer rooting a mob and let a Warrior tank it then punishing the group by accepting a 40+% exp penalty that’s chopped up across all members. Then of course the asshole that picks a Troll SK and gets butthurt over groups not bending over backwards to invite him.

You guys are really stuck on this root thing. Roots sound good in theory and are useful in pinches but aren't really great in practice for sustained killing. Who is rooting? Not a great use of mana for your dps classes plus you get agro on resists and less med time due to rooting. What if the only rooter is the healer? Same problems but even worse for group efficiency. Beyond just rooting your hybrids are all going to be able to pull better than your warrior and be way more useful with adds.

[Tethler]

That’s why I was saying with root it’s much more effective. No ping-ponging, Warrior has time to get sufficient aggro, and DPS can do what they do best. I rarely factor in slow since majority of mobs die so quickly it isn’t even worth the mana cast (except for raid mobs). Snap aggro of course is faster, but generally unnecessary with the above.

Yeah, this is 100% true as long as someone is on the ball with roots. I do this on my ranger when I group with undergeared warriors or overzealous casters.

[Atmas]

Lol no

I mean believe whatever you want. I tanked this game on my Paladin from crushbone orcs to KT and ToV dragons (notable exceptions, AoW, Tunare, Lord Vyemm). So I have a pretty good understanding of how this game works. A warrior is going to shine against the hardest hitting mobs when they have a mallet or other agro implement, no question about it. However, a hybrid is going to result in things being dead significantly quicker on other mobs.

[DMN]

Why would that be? Warrior’s have the best mitigation in the game. Paladin’s and SK’s aren’t decreasing the time spent killing the mob, only offering potentially faster aggro. That doesn’t have anything to do with who would be healed more. In fact, Warrior’s not only have higher mitigation, but higher DPS, equating to a faster kill on a mob. As a healer, there’s nothing that would cause the Warrior to take MORE damage than a hybrid, only multiple reasons why he would take less.


Actually the difference in tanking for hybrids/warriors is incredibly small in vanilla EQ. I as the main tank plenty of times in the planes back in the day.

Warrior also isn't going to have higher than a knight DPS in most of vanilla either since they can use mith 2 hd and warrior will probably be using 1 hd taunting weapons.

Additonally an SK or ranger will probably save the healer more mana if dealing with fleeing mobs(vast majority in the game) as they basically just let you kill them when snared after 15% health.



Root is an easy and accessible spell for multiple classes in EQ. Would absolutely prefer rooting a mob and let a Warrior tank it then punishing the group by accepting a 40+% exp penalty that’s chopped up across all members. Then of course the asshole that picks a Troll SK and gets butthurt over groups not bending over backwards to invite him.

Well, root isn't terribly reliable. It gets resisted and can break quite early and can break from anyone doing spell damage too. Additionally ,if you do use root than you once again don't get to save all that mana when mobs hit 15% life.

If your group is needing to wait on mana from the healer, in any decent sized group the ranger/SK will more than make up for the exp penalty, assuming they did not have a snarer in the party beforehand.

[Wallicker]

A 45 troll Sk takes as much exp as a 42 Ogre warrior and 41 barb rogue.

[Smellybuttface]

You’re right about root potentially breaking and the Mith 2 Hander. I was going to make a special mention of that but it seems like so few people actually have one.

I don’t dislike Knight classes; snap aggro is nice, and without discs Warrior’s don’t have a whole lot to work with in Classic. It’s still sort of mind boggling how the original EQ devs gave the Warrior so little in the game off the bat. Also of course class exp penalty’s were a pretty poor idea. Even Monk’s get a 20% penalty, and they already have so many restrictions as it is (weight, low ac, few Classic weapons etc.).

[Magerin]

Rangers top the list for the worse class. they are mostly for the fun of playing them not because they shine in any one situation over one another. the EXP hit is huge, the lack of good spells to solo. Nothing they get makes them worth any one class on a raid during classic.

Kunark they do see a decent spike, but again, rangers are mostly for fun of the players play style, nothing else.

[gherron]

Rangers top the list for the worse class. they are mostly for the fun of playing them not because they shine in any one situation over one another. the EXP hit is huge, the lack of good spells to solo. Nothing they get makes them worth any one class on a raid during classic.

Kunark they do see a decent spike, but again, rangers are mostly for fun of the players play style, nothing else.

For exp groups that are in outdoor zones (which is the path most take) they can potentially be the best puller.

[Videri]

Last night, I had a group experience that changed my thinking on the topic of tanks. We had a warrior tanking at the Gnome castle in Sol A. The Gnomes are quite resistant to magic and fire. I was playing a druid. Because we had a warrior tank, I thought I should root every mob so the two rogues could easily backstab. The higher-level clockwork Gnomes resisted it a lot, and it broke early too. The warrior recommended we not root OR mez mobs. He actually held aggro better that way, and quickly, too. We focused our mana on healing him. We rarely had to heal the rogues. Maybe they were just good at managing their aggro. Or maybe the warrior was geared much better and simply topped the aggro meter like some kind of champion of Zek.

So...root can create easy-mode aggro on non-resistant mobs, but resistant mobs may require other strategies. Once again, strategy depends on situation, and we must be able to adapt.

[Wrekt]

There are just a lot of shitty players on this 20 year old game. Once you group with a skilled warrior, you will denounce hybrids. If everyone in the group knows the game, yes asking a lot, a warrior is best.

Fuck hybrids - fucking lazy backpedaling, keyboard turning spell and skill clicking noobs!

<3

[gherron]

There are just a lot of shitty players on this 20 year old game. Once you group with a skilled warrior, you will denounce hybrids. If everyone in the group knows the game, yes asking a lot, a warrior is best.

Fuck hybrids - fucking lazy backpedaling, keyboard turning spell and skill clicking noobs!

<3

Yet we have no info on that warrior’s twink status. Granted, warriors ARE the most gear dependent so I’m sure it’s not inaccurate to say that a warrior can hold threat over 2 rogues with the right gear.

[vanix]

Warriors go from one of the worst to one of the best in kunark/velious so although they are terribad now their time will come i s’pose

then why the fuck does my blue monk have to tank for groups even when we have sk's and pallys and warriors in the fucking group please explain this to me

[vanix]

FACT: my monk back on the combine has pulled, positioned, and tanked full through the entire fight and survived for everything up to and limited to AoW and the few other really really hard hitting targets.. maybe tunare.. idk its been a while, but all im saying is that monks are pretty much capable of doing anything a warrior can with a small amount of exceptions

[valenwood]

FACT: my monk back on the combine has pulled, positioned, and tanked full through the entire fight and survived for everything up to and limited to AoW and the few other really really hard hitting targets.. maybe tunare.. idk its been a while, but all im saying is that monks are pretty much capable of doing anything a warrior can with a small amount of exceptions

Less hp, less AC, more damage = better tank? Confused.

Can you? Yes
Should you? No

Be kind on your healers.

[cd288]

Less hp, less AC, more damage = better tank? Confused.

Can you? Yes
Should you? No

Be kind on your healers.

I wouldn't say they are BETTER tanks but they are certainly doable as tanks for the vast majority of content since they are a damage avoidance class so their less AC and less HP doesn't hurt them as much.

[valenwood]

Worst class would have to be Wizard. What other class HAS to be paired with a very specific OTHER class in order to feel strong, or effective? Bard song does not cut it, sorry. Wizards HAVE to have an enchanter in their group, or at least someone in the zone willing to be their C bot.

The only "niche" that druids seem to fill as a healer that's substantial is having an "outdoor shrink". Other than that, they seem to be the "Wizards of the Healers", always Oom, and rarely being able to contribute in a very powerful way. They sit in the back, and hope no one calls on them to be the main healer.

Let's not forget everyone that warriors rely on PROCS to generate the brunt of their AGGRO. They do this by focusing intently on the stat called DEXTERITY. No dexterity, no procs, no aggro, everyone dies. (Or they have tons of clickies. Just another thing that the other tanks don't have to worry about.)

Do Paladins or Shadowknights have to do this? Nope. Is the mob blue to me? Yes? Then I'm the best tank for it.

[Hazek]

Worst class is a bard because most people suck at it.

[vanix]

i went from 26-27 at gobs in hk last night in a few hours ~3 with 2 enc, a shm, druid, and mage.. pulling, splitting, tanking mobs ~8lvls higher than i was with cured silk armor and my fists and 30ish regen a tick below 50% with bw macro and 2 charmed pets its all how much effort you feel like putting into making your character work with what you have and do it well.. really shine

[Wrekt]

Worst class is a bard because most people suck at it.

You're a racist piece of shit, but you're absolutely correct here.

[Nirgon]

You're a racist piece of shit, but you're absolutely correct here.

Correction: you are a transgression fabricating whacko and he's a champion of Prexus

[Wrekt]

Correction: you are a transgression fabricating whacko and he's a champion of Prexus

I don't fabricate anything. You guys are hoods-off racist on the forums and in game. I simply quote you.

[cd288]

i went from 26-27 at gobs in hk last night in a few hours ~3 with 2 enc, a shm, druid, and mage.. pulling, splitting, tanking mobs ~8lvls higher than i was with cured silk armor and my fists and 30ish regen a tick below 50% with bw macro and 2 charmed pets its all how much effort you feel like putting into making your character work with what you have and do it well.. really shine

Lol what this really means is:

- You had a ton of good DPS with two charmed rmobs (best DPS in game) which probably included Osargen backstabbing, plus great mage pet DPS. All of which were probably hasted/Auged and putting up amazing numbers; thus decreasing the length of fights drastically. Plus Mage and Enchanter nuke DPS.
- You had haste/aug, which added to the decreased fight time mentioned above even further when combined with the pet DPS. So you weren't taking as much damage overall because of that.
- You had Druid buffs and regen to help make what hits you did take not be significant.
- You had a Shaman or Ench slowing mobs so that the amount of chances you had to take damage (especially when combined with how fast the mobs were being burned down) was drastically reduced.

So what you're really saying is "I had this amazing group composition that allowed me to shine a lot as a Monk tank." Don't get me wrong, I think Monks are certainly serviceable at tanks but even in that group composition I would've rather had an actual tank than a Monk as a tank.

[Wallicker]

Lol what this really means is:

- You had a ton of good DPS with two charmed rmobs (best DPS in game) which probably included Osargen backstabbing, plus great mage pet DPS. All of which were probably hasted/Auged and putting up amazing numbers; thus decreasing the length of fights drastically. Plus Mage and Enchanter nuke DPS.
- You had haste/aug, which added to the decreased fight time mentioned above even further when combined with the pet DPS. So you weren't taking as much damage overall because of that.
- You had Druid buffs and regen to help make what hits you did take not be significant.
- You had a Shaman or Ench slowing mobs so that the amount of chances you had to take damage (especially when combined with how fast the mobs were being burned down) was drastically reduced.

So what you're really saying is "I had this amazing group composition that allowed me to shine a lot as a Monk tank." Don't get me wrong, I think Monks are certainly serviceable at tanks but even in that group composition I would've rather had an actual tank than a Monk as a tank.

Lol more like sow + regen mitigated his face aggro pulls bc by the time he flopped mob to the pets it’s probably time to go pull another...

[sentinel]

Seems either rangers or wizards.

If you disagree with either choice, then who is the worst? Remember this is who the worst, not who is bad.

[Visual]

Warriors go from one of the worst to one of the best in kunark/velious so although they are terribad now their time will come i s’pose

Warriors must have been spamming the forums with hate posts. Imagine not knowing if it would ever get better

[YendorLootmonkey]

Yes, rangers. Don't make one. Delete the one you have.

[Secrets]

paladin by far. Basically a worse cleric.

[Hazek]

paladin by far. Basically a worse cleric.

Not even close.

During raids I can:

- Snap agro the pull so warriors have time to proc.
- Tank mobs 80% of the time until they do proc
- Root and pick up adds
- Offheal a significant amount and save casters, etc.
- Double stun mobs and do damage with one of them.
- Stun charmed pets
- Do good damage with a hasted 2h
- Lay Hands
- Symbol people to take pressure off the clerics
- Heal the shaman, druids and clerics while they canni / manastone for buffs

If you think Paladins are bad by any means then you've never played one at a sufficient skill level.

[Wallicker]

Worst class is whichever one is played by DMN

[Secrets]

Not even close.

During raids I can:

- Snap agro the pull so warriors have time to proc.
- Tank mobs 80% of the time until they do proc
- Root and pick up adds
- Offheal a significant amount and save casters, etc.
- Double stun mobs and do damage with one of them.
- Stun charmed pets
- Do good damage with a hasted 2h
- Lay Hands
- Symbol people to take pressure off the clerics
- Heal the shaman, druids and clerics while they canni / manastone for buffs

If you think Paladins are bad by any means then you've never played one at a sufficient skill level.

Cleric can do everything you've mentioned except Lay on Hands. Even tank. They do everything else tons better and aren't limited to undead like Paladins are.

The only downside is Cleric doesn't use the same formula for health. That's literally it.

[Gatorsmash]

Not even close.

During raids I can:

- Snap agro the pull so warriors have time to proc.
- Tank mobs 80% of the time until they do proc
- Root and pick up adds
- Offheal a significant amount and save casters, etc.
- Double stun mobs and do damage with one of them.
- Stun charmed pets
- Do good damage with a hasted 2h
- Lay Hands
- Symbol people to take pressure off the clerics
- Heal the shaman, druids and clerics while they canni / manastone for buffs

If you think Paladins are bad by any means then you've never played one at a sufficient skill level.

A level 50 Paladin:
-Greater heal, the lvl 24 cleric spell that caps at 270 and Calm
-lvl 19 cleric lul
-the clerics lvl 34 ac-hp buff
-the lvl 19 cleric stun
- and ya that 2hs DPS with no slam for runners or casters is amazing.

Fucking Paladin players are the most delusional out of all the classes hands down. Class is complete trash at 50 in classic compared to other tank classes.

[Hazek]

A level 50 Paladin:
-Greater heal, the lvl 24 cleric spell that caps at 270 and Calm
-lvl 19 cleric lul
-the clerics lvl 34 ac-hp buff
-the lvl 19 cleric stun
- and ya that 2hs DPS with no slam for runners or casters is amazing.

Fucking Paladin players are the most delusional out of all the classes hands down. Class is complete trash at 50 in classic compared to other tank classes.

Your comment is beyond stupid and all you're demonstrating is that you can't think logically and have zero end game experience.

One example is the fact that the level of the stun is irrelevant to its usefulness based on what it does.

[Hazek]

Cleric can do everything you've mentioned except Lay on Hands. Even tank. They do everything else tons better and aren't limited to undead like Paladins are.

The only downside is Cleric doesn't use the same formula for health. That's literally it.

Except clerics don't do any of those things in raids because they have to med and use mana for heals, buffs and rezzes. No cleric stands there chain stunning mobs and picking up adds.

All of the things I listed are significant and what makes paladins useful that I did during every raid personally.

I'm not saying pallies are better than clerics or vice versa. But to say pallies are the worst class, or even close, is a flat out lie. All of the paladins utility is a compliment to their tanking ability and damage.

And compared to a warrior; warriors get a slight bonus in HP and AC except none of the utility and even less damage from having to use 1h's with procs. Warriors would be better off letting a pally or SK tank and using a 2h for damage during trash. Because even if you gave them time for agro, thats even less efficient than just letting a hybrid snap it and DPS immediately.

And there's so much more to say, but you have to think for yourself instead of me trying to explain all of it. Even though i've provided plenty of reasons for why a well played paladin is highly effective.

[Gatorsmash]

Your comment is beyond stupid and all you're demonstrating is that you can't think logically and have zero end game experience.

One example is the fact that the level of the stun is irrelevant to its usefulness based on what it does.

Except clerics don't do any of those things in raids because they have to med and use mana for heals, buffs and rezzes. No cleric stands there chain stunning mobs and picking up adds.

All of the things I listed are significant and what makes paladins useful that I did during every raid personally.

I'm not saying pallies are better than clerics or vice versa. But to say pallies are the worst class, or even close, is a flat out lie. All of the paladins utility is a compliment to their tanking ability and damage.

And compared to a warrior; warriors get a slight bonus in HP and AC except none of the utility and even less damage from having to use 1h's with procs. Warriors would be better off letting a pally or SK tank and using a 2h for damage during trash. Because even if you gave them time for agro, thats even less efficient than just letting a hybrid snap it and DPS immediately.

And there's so much more to say, but you have to think for yourself instead of me trying to explain all of it. Even though i've provided plenty of reasons for why a well played paladin is highly effective.

Warriors will and have always out damaged paladin-SK's. And your stun "fact" fails to mention the resist check modifier since your casting a lvl 34 spell at 50.

Like I said, paladin players are fucking delusional about the class.

[Wonkie]

Knight sword-and-board may out mitigate warrior in classic

Does green have shield AC?

[Hazek]

I have no brain and make baseless claims

[Hazek]

Warriors will and have always out damaged paladin-SK's. And your stun "fact" fails to mention the resist check modifier since your casting a lvl 34 spell at 50.

Like I said, paladin players are fucking delusional about the class.

And even if they did, they still don't have any of the utility that a paladin has. You're obviously a dumbass.

[Videri]

I’ve been a cleric on raids, and in an effort to be more than nust another constantly-medding CH bot, I have done things like try to root adds, stun charm breaks, and tank things that are hitting clothies, and I have found we clerics take sooo much damage. Cleric mitigation is bab. I think it’s misguided to compare cleric tanking to paladin tanking. I think Hazek is right about more than people are giving him credit for.

[Fragged]

Worst class is whichever one is played by DMN

+1

[Benanov]

Except clerics don't do any of those things in raids because they have to med and use mana for heals, buffs and rezzes. No cleric stands there chain stunning mobs and picking up adds.


*coughs* I mean, I only do that in XP groups.

Honestly clerics don't have the mitigation to be doing that for more than a fight or two because the tank has to piss, or as a party trick when vastly overgeared. WAR PAL SHD and possibly BRD are optimizing for HP/AC; Clerics are optimizing for +WIS, then +Mana, then +HP/MR/AC.

Defense caps at 200, Dodge at 75, no Parry, no Riposte. DA/DB sure but you can't do anything except move and sit once you fire off one of those spells (can't even get evacced *shakes fist*) and I can't imagine too many raid mobs are vulnerable to stun.

So yeah while a cleric CAN tank...it's really only useful when you've got a glut of clerics.

[magnetaress]

Monks cuz basically they just FD pull and can't use swords. Every other class can pull better. Warriors are awesome cuz they can just pull 3 mobs at once and not die.

[Issar]

Monks cuz basically they just FD pull and can't use swords. Every other class can pull better. Warriors are awesome cuz they can just pull 3 mobs at once and not die.

See, this guy here? He gets it!

[Videri]

Ranger or paladin?
https://i.imgur.com/ey9Crye.gif

[Tethler]

Let's be real though. Rogues are worst in classic due to shitty weapons and 0 utility.

[sentinel]

Honestly it is ranger or rogue. I'd say *probably* rogue due to track/sow/harmony in favor of the ranger.

[magnetaress]

rogues steal hardly any exp and benefit a lot from a shaman, bard, or chanter. Rangers have snare & roots tho which is handy unless there is a necro.

[Neno]

I don't know if there is an overall worst class. I think how valuable a class is to a group can change depending on things like location, goal, and group makeup. Groups in EQ can be so malleable so having a class that can do 1 role but also cover other duties is really nice if suddenly group make up changes. Not every player is created equal as well. I'd take a sub optimal class piloted by an experienced player over a "better" class piloted by an inexperienced player.

I'm never too worried about things like exp penalties. Hybrids almost always make the group better in multiple ways. If my group will be more secure and can survive a particular class leaving then I'll always take the hybrid as it nets me way more xp in the long run. Like a ranger can dps, pull, buff, root, snare, invis, track and tank in a pinch. That is a ton of utility. If my monk/bard puller would leave and my only options for a replacement are a mage or necro my ranger can switch to pulling. If I have druid healer that leaves and I need snare I can replace them with whatever as the ranger can do it. There are situations where maybe rangers don't shine and/or are too redundant but thats OK.

There probably is one singular group makeup that is across the board superior in all situations. I enjoy those kinds of metas but it just isn't always a given that you will have X, Y, and Z when putting together a group or looking for replacements.

[magnetaress]

I don't know if there is an overall worst class. I think how valuable a class is to a group can change depending on things like location, goal, and group makeup. Groups in EQ can be so malleable so having a class that can do 1 role but also cover other duties is really nice if suddenly group make up changes. Not every player is created equal as well. I'd take a sub optimal class piloted by an experienced player over a "better" class piloted by an inexperienced player.

I'm never too worried about things like exp penalties. Hybrids almost always make the group better in multiple ways. If my group will be more secure and can survive a particular class leaving then I'll always take the hybrid as it nets me way more xp in the long run. Like a ranger can dps, pull, buff, root, snare, invis, track and tank in a pinch. That is a ton of utility. If my monk/bard puller would leave and my only options for a replacement are a mage or necro my ranger can switch to pulling. If I have druid healer that leaves and I need snare I can replace them with whatever as the ranger can do it. There are situations where maybe rangers don't shine and/or are too redundant but thats OK.

There probably is one singular group makeup that is across the board superior in all situations. I enjoy those kinds of metas but it just isn't always a given that you will have X, Y, and Z when putting together a group or looking for replacements.

The best group will always be an enchanter and druid duo probably other than that, ya, its all situational IMO. Everything else is a bonus. I find that full groups level slow but if not in a rush to get lvl 60 it really doesn't matter. I want people in my group who I can chat with and have a good time with. Even if it takes 19 hrs to ding. vs 8.

[twitchthroe]

I want people in my group who I can chat with and have a good time with. Even if it takes 19 hrs to ding. vs 8.

Touching cloth seems to be a feature of most mmos I played. Not so much in EQ. I wonder if extended turtle heads are expected at higher levels but as of now, it's no problem. Just afk and feed the french, take your time and savor it. Nobody cares.

[kaluppo]

The only "niche" that druids seem to fill as a healer that's substantial is having an "outdoor shrink". Other than that, they seem to be the "Wizards of the Healers", always Oom, and rarely being able to contribute in a very powerful way. They sit in the back, and hope no one calls on them to be the main healer.

I'm shocked at your ignorance on the Druid class considering how old this game is. But let me educate you with thirteen ways your assessment is incorrect.

1). Harmony. This along with sow/wolfform this actually makes druids an ideal puller or assistant to the puller. Harmony is low mana and it can't be resisted.

2). Damage Shield. Unless there is a mage in the group, I always keep DS on the tank whether I am healer or DPS. It's low mana and the damage adds up.

3). Regeneration. This is highly underrated. It only costs 100 mana and I love it for the non-tanks who take a little damage here and there. Keeps the healer from having to cast larger mana heals on multiple players making their mana last longer.

4). Snare. Very low mana and it can keep your mob from aggroing adds when low health. For groups with minimal DPS this can be very useful.

5). Fire/ICE based nukes. These do considerable DPS for the mana spent. In a good group I can keep DS on the tank and nuke once per fight without ever getting below 50M. Add a chanter with clarity and I can nuke 2-3 times per fight. Right now at CE entrance, my fire nuke does about 20% of mobs health. I nuke twice then I did 40% of the kill + DS damage.

6). Swarm DOT. Mostly this is a solo spell. But the magic based swarm DOT is extremely mana friendly and highly effective against higher level mobs that the group may take longer to kill. This spell is also never resisted by anything non-red. When I know the puller grabbed a mob that takes awhile to kill then I will throw the dot on to get more damage done for less mana.

7). SOW/share wolf form. Speaks for itself.

8). Heals. You can never beat a cleric but you can come close. From level 1-28 the Druid can heal nearly as good as a cleric. From 29-34 the Cleric, Druid and Shaman all have the same greater healing spell as their best. 34+ the Clerics run away with it but the Druid can fill in nicely in a pinch. Not to mention having a backup healer in a group can be huge when two members are getting beat on or the Cleric is taking aggro. When main healing I can manage my mana very efficiently as long as we have a good puller and tank. In other words, If I only have to heal one player most of the time then there is no issue with premature 00m. If however, the puller, tank and chanter are all taking damage on every pull then sure mana will be a problem. That's certainly not the Druids fault.

9). Evac/ports. I can't tell you how many times I saved an entire CE entrance group from wiping on a bad pull. The ones who can gate back do so and I can go get the rest so they can make the relatively short run from Steamfont druid rings. Not to mention all the times a replacement has been found for someone who needs a ride.

10). Skin/STR/MR buffs. This is the least useful but when you are encumbered the STR buff is a lifesaver. When the Cleric is LOM or non-existent the Skin buff is awesome for the tank, puller and chanter in the group. Magic resist is also nice to have on for a low mana buff when pulling caster mobs.

11). Levitate/enduring breath. There are zones where this is huge even in a group setting.

12). Whirling wind. Low level, low mana nuke with a stun to interrupt caster mobs. This was huge when fighting at orc highway whenever they pulled an orc priest.

13). Root. Druids have a great root line which lasts 1.6 minutes and does a little damage on impact. It's also low mana to cast so it makes it great for groups with a tank who can't keep aggro or just as CC for that pesky add when the group lacks a chanter or bard.

[Gatorsmash]

I'm shocked at your ignorance on the Druid class considering how old this game is. But let me educate you with thirteen ways your assessment is incorrect.

1). Harmony. This along with sow/wolfform this actually makes druids an ideal puller or assistant to the puller. Harmony is low mana and it can't be resisted.

2). Damage Shield. Unless there is a mage in the group, I always keep DS on the tank whether I am healer or DPS. It's low mana and the damage adds up.

3). Regeneration. This is highly underrated. It only costs 100 mana and I love it for the non-tanks who take a little damage here and there. Keeps the healer from having to cast larger mana heals on multiple players making their mana last longer.

4). Snare. Very low mana and it can keep your mob from aggroing adds when low health. For groups with minimal DPS this can be very useful.

5). Fire/ICE based nukes. These do considerable DPS for the mana spent. In a good group I can keep DS on the tank and nuke once per fight without ever getting below 50M. Add a chanter with clarity and I can nuke 2-3 times per fight. Right now at CE entrance, my fire nuke does about 20% of mobs health. I nuke twice then I did 40% of the kill + DS damage.

6). Swarm DOT. Mostly this is a solo spell. But the magic based swarm DOT is extremely mana friendly and highly effective against higher level mobs that the group may take longer to kill. This spell is also never resisted by anything non-red. When I know the puller grabbed a mob that takes awhile to kill then I will throw the dot on to get more damage done for less mana.

7). SOW/share wolf form. Speaks for itself.

8). Heals. You can never beat a cleric but you can come close. From level 1-28 the Druid can heal nearly as good as a cleric. From 29-34 the Cleric, Druid and Shaman all have the same greater healing spell as their best. 34+ the Clerics run away with it but the Druid can fill in nicely in a pinch. Not to mention having a backup healer in a group can be huge when two members are getting beat on or the Cleric is taking aggro. When main healing I can manage my mana very efficiently as long as we have a good puller and tank. In other words, If I only have to heal one player most of the time then there is no issue with premature 00m. If however, the puller, tank and chanter are all taking damage on every pull then sure mana will be a problem. That's certainly not the Druids fault.

9). Evac/ports. I can't tell you how many times I saved an entire CE entrance group from wiping on a bad pull. The ones who can gate back do so and I can go get the rest so they can make the relatively short run from Steamfont druid rings. Not to mention all the times a replacement has been found for someone who needs a ride.

10). Skin/STR/MR buffs. This is the least useful but when you are encumbered the STR buff is a lifesaver. When the Cleric is LOM or non-existent the Skin buff is awesome for the tank, puller and chanter in the group. Magic resist is also nice to have on for a low mana buff when pulling caster mobs.

11). Levitate/enduring breath. There are zones where this is huge even in a group setting.

12). Whirling wind. Low level, low mana nuke with a stun to interrupt caster mobs. This was huge when fighting at orc highway whenever they pulled an orc priest.

13). Root. Druids have a great root line which lasts 1.6 minutes and does a little damage on impact. It's also low mana to cast so it makes it great for groups with a tank who can't keep aggro or just as CC for that pesky add when the group lacks a chanter or bard.

That's a great write up, the only thing I heavily disagree is the healing.

It's not what they get (heal spell) it's when. Having recently lvled a cleric, getting that level appropriate heal spell is so dramatically different than my shaman. Even with slow pre 34 it's just comparable

[Gatorsmash]

Just **isn't comparable


God damn phone auto correct

[kaluppo]

That's a great write up, the only thing I heavily disagree is the healing.

It's not what they get (heal spell) it's when. Having recently lvled a cleric, getting that level appropriate heal spell is so dramatically different than my shaman. Even with slow pre 34 it's just comparable

I also have leveled a cleric (multiple times). The Cleric does gets the healing upgrade sooner. But there are also multiple times when all three classes have the same exact main healing spell. From lvl 5-9, 14-19 and 24-29 the cleric has a better heal than the Druid/Shaman. But....

Lvl 1-5 all priest classes have minor healing. Lvl 9-14 all priest classes have light healing. Lvl 19 to 24 all priest classes have healing. lvl 29-34 all priest classes have greater healing.

So from 1-34 there are more levels that the priest classes are equal then are unequal. Where the Cleric really shines is 34+ and the fact they use less mana per heal due to the efficiency bonus or whatever you want to call it. I'm not saying the Druid/Shaman can heal as well as a cleric but for several levels 1-34 it is pretty close.

[magnetaress]

druids are OK healers, if a group sux so bad it cant get healed by a druid IDK wat to say, basically a druid can keep an MT and puller up np and is fine when everyone is doing their job at not getting hit to much

[Qaldar]

Warriors will and have always out damaged paladin-SK's. And your stun "fact" fails to mention the resist check modifier since your casting a lvl 34 spell at 50.

Like I said, paladin players are fucking delusional about the class.

Warriors may out damage a paladin, but their groups also take a considerable amount of damage over a paladin’s. In Sakuragi’s warrior guide, he recaps a tale of three spore king groups in Kunark. The warrior took twice as much damage as the paladin, and the paladin’s group also took 20% less damage amongst members. Higher damage taken translates to downtime, even if the warrior’s group is killing an individual mob slightly faster than the paladin.

Paladins are the best group tank in the game. Stuns should be chained and are absolutely sick for reducing melee damage, locking down caster damage completely with three interrupts, and for controlling charmed pets (charm pets are where the real dps lies anyways).

In duos and trios, a paladin is also the clear choice due to being able to root adds and their ability to strengthen and increase survivability of their partners. Other tanks cannot effectively duo with an enchanter for example.

PS Stun lands on most PoF mobs, but the main point here is the paladin’s strength in group content. You’ve probably only grouped with bad paladins or were terrible yourself when you tried one.

[Ennewi]

Warriors will and have always out damaged paladin-SK's. And your stun "fact" fails to mention the resist check modifier since your casting a lvl 34 spell at 50.

Like I said, paladin players are fucking delusional about the class.

Well at that level stuns are equal in importance for consistent on-demand aggro at a distance, especially when needing to keep Enchanters/Druids/Necromancers alive during charm breaks; considering those are the true DPS classes, I would say that alone makes knights worth a damn on raids and in groups, where it applies at least. Also, wouldn't a resisted stun translate into more aggro? So your argument actually favors the class more given their traditional role, even though the damage mitigation of an unresisted stun would be preferred. Yes, other classes have stuns and AE stuns, but those stuns typically won't take priority over their other spells or even spell slots, and those classes won't survive long against a hasted torched pet. Plus, if one of those classes attempt to CC that pet and dies, it could easily lead to the group/raid wiping. If PAL/SHD dies, it's no big deal.

That's why they're used in other niche areas of the game as well; pure classes have more to offer physically, if not magically, depending on the target(s). Protecting CC on spiroc island and training bees away. Low numbers Plate House cycles. Fear/Hate break-ins. Ring Wars. All of these scenarios have multiple targets/waves and/or limited space.

It is odd that the original devs gave the best versions of Flowing Thought to priests and purecasters (especially those that already had ways of regenerating mana themselves), when PAL/SHD could have benefited more, closing the gap between OP classes and them. With smaller mana pools and no ability to specialize in any type of magic, higher mana regen would have given PAL/SHD more support raid significance where the previous definitive role (as tank) no longer applied considering that weren't given worthwhile disciplines to increase damage output or avoidance.

Outside a group setting, both knights compete for the title of "worst" in classic and trilogy, at least in min/max terms where you must be able to do one thing and do it very well. Knights needed to be made into more of what they already were, multifaceted, much in the way that Bards are the hybrids of all hybrids.

If your spell book won't ever include bind/gate, evac/ports, slow/haste, mana regen, mez/atone, sow/selos, charm, or even a summoned pet that can withstand damage. If your skill table won't ever translate into burst or sustained DPS on raids. You might be playing one of the worst classes. But by that same logic, if your MMORPG won't let you do all of these things on the same character, some would argue that you're playing one of the worst games.

[Ennewi]

That's why they're used in other niche areas of the game as well; pure classes have more to offer physically, if not magically, depending on the target(s).

And it's why they (PAL/SK) are DT fodder more often than not.

[DMN]

And it's why they (PAL/SK) are DT fodder more often than not.

Raid scene sucks for pretty much everyone except for maybe the pullers, and SKs can help with that.

[Ennewi]

Raid scene sucks for pretty much everyone except for maybe the pullers, and SKs can help with that.

True, but then there's already an (over)abundance of Monks. Too many cooks in the kitchen is often the result. SKs are really good for fear golems though; help with pulls and eat the DT.

[magnetaress]

The real bonus for SK, pal, ranger, is they can do 'some things on their own'. They can't really farm items, but they can fight and do stuff and grind vendor loot during downtime between main events.

No one playing this game should be worried about min-maxing in 2020 though. There is no reason to other than being the first guild on green to kill Naggy.

Anyway.

Knights are really good in pvp. Not as good as pure melees tho )

Actually they are pretty good in pvp. Unless its a twinked out rogue, monk or war with mad skills.

[magnetaress]

Classic 1-50 ranger is a pretty decent pvp class over-all. Its bow damage is scary )

[Madae]

DT fodder

It's unfortunate that this is a thing. The moment I found out my guild on one of the TLP servers would be making my SK do this, I stopped playing it and started something else. It's just funny that your most useful aspect in raids is to get killed so everyone else can succeed. How boring.

[magnetaress]

You can always HT b4 u DT

[Ennewi]

You can always HT b4 u DT

And hope no one notices when it's resisted.

[Lartanin63]

If only this server had endurance in the game....Hybrids would be alot different when your warrior swinging his 15 weight swords would say please hold pulls I can't do anything. Priests would be wasting mana on the melee instead of healing. Bards would be essential in heavy melee groups, enchanters would have to Augmentation everyone all the time. I'd love to see people not be able to swim anymore and drowned because of no stamina. It's great there is a line of spells in this game that do nothing that were backbone in classic and added worth to the most hated classes. Worthless kunark clickies that would be standard equipment to melee. But let's keep that exp pen because it's classic.

[Kohedron]

imagine white knighting a type of character in a 1,000 year old video game

[Ennewi]

imagine white knighting a type of character in a 1,000 year old video game

Is white knighting possible if there aren't any actual women present, only female character models?

[indiscriminate_hater]

It's unfortunate that this is a thing. The moment I found out my guild on one of the TLP servers would be making my SK do this, I stopped playing it and started something else. It's just funny that your most useful aspect in raids is to get killed so everyone else can succeed. How boring.

Is standing there autoattacking any better?

[Madae]

Is standing there autoattacking any better?

Control is still in your hands, so at least you feel active and contributing.

[Hazek]

Just remember that Paladin out damages mage pet plus a monk.

[Gatorsmash]

And it's why they (PAL/SK) are DT fodder more often than not.

^ Seriously this should tell you all you need to know

[Tenderizer]

Hi again. Worst class is a war/sk/pali who has mobs running all over because they can't aggro worth shit. Call in a ranger to grab it off the squishier's...

[Tenderizer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ga-TIjl-cJA

[Molitoth]

Hi again. Worst class is a war/sk/pali who has mobs running all over because they can't aggro worth shit. Call in a ranger to grab it off the squishier's...

If a paladin or SK can't hold agro, they just suck.

[Hazek]

Everything gets locked down except amy wars and knights.

Those can bounce because our wars need to tank them and they need a sec to get agro even when I root.

And I think casters are used to the insane pally agro so they have a habit of going early.

SK's have good snap but nobody will pull off a pally after my combo without a taunt.

[Zuranthium]

Based on how game mechanics were in 1999, rather than the altered version we have here with P99, this was my ranking of the classes - https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2940484&postcount=147

I would probably put Ranger as the worst overall for P99. Rogues have the upgraded versions of Sneak and Backstab already at Green launch, right? That's a big boost over what they used to be initially. NPC's on P99 still don't flee as swiftly as they used to in Classic as well, right? So that makes Ranger snare less valuable than it was back in the day. Hybrids on P99 Green do get the benefit of a bigger mana pool and having Meditate as compared to way back in 1999, and also casting in combat working more efficiently, but overall I'd probably put Rogue sneak as being the more pivotal thing, for corpse dragging when people die in bad spots.

Paladin is probably the worst when Rangers are able to catch up in gear, and in this modified era of LGuk no longer being that great of a place to go; RIP the benefit of Ghoulbane and undead DD's for grinding on those undead froggies.

[Snortles Chortles]

If a paladin or SK can't hold agro, they just suck.

[RecondoJoe]

It’s hilarious that people are implying Warrior or Rogue is worse than Ranger.

[Rick Sanchez]

Play what you want and stfu

[Tankwipe]

Play what you want and stfu

[Ennewi]

Haven’t ever cared about meta, only my time. I mained a Ranger back in the live EQ days, so I don’t think they’re a bad class at all, but in Classic they are very underwhelming given their penalty and middle of the road DPS. Of course if they have a CoF and all BiS they’d be doing better than 50% of DPS on the server, but I’m assuming equal geared/equal level characters.

Same reason I’m skittish about the penalty is also why I wouldn’t take someone 4 levels higher than the group generally. If I’m group leader, I’m not going to make a choice that hurts the group in a benefit/burden sense. It’s unfair of me to put that on the group.

Their exp penalty is assessed on the group before experience is divvied out to everyone, not after. Wiki explains it much better than I can. It’s definitely noticeable though, especially with multiple hybrids in a group. If people are so butthurt about groups not taking the exp penalty, then they can either play a different class, solo, or only play with friends/guild mates and not a bunch of rando’s. Not saying I wouldn’t not ever take a hybrid, but given the choice between a DPS with a penalty and one without, I’ll take the one without.

Say the group leader invites a Wizard, despite one or two objections. That player does fine. Rooting. Nuking low health mobs before/as they gate and begin to cheal.
Best of all, not pulling aggro or AFKing excessively. And they ported everyone out after the group finished the xp session. Other party members might still have wanted
a rogue or bard to fill that last slot, but you made the decision. Then, months later, an earthquake or gm event happens and that Wizard friend you made from all of
those invites sends you a tell, saying to run to the nearest wiz spire. You get there before all of the other min/maxing meta players because they didn't factor in the
social aspect of gameplay and the spells that have nothing to do with sustained damage output or heals. It's similar to the story of the Chinese farmer. "Maybe."

[kjs86z]

Say the group leader invites a Wizard, despite one or two objections. That player does fine. Rooting. Nuking low health mobs before/as they gate and begin to cheal.
Best of all, not pulling aggro or AFKing excessively. And they ported everyone out after the group finished the xp session. Other party members might still have wanted
a rogue or bard to fill that last slot, but you made the decision. Then, months later, an earthquake or gm event happens and that Wizard friend you made from all of
those invites sends you a tell, saying to run to the nearest wiz spire. You get there before all of the other min/maxing meta players because they didn't factor in the
social aspect of gameplay and the spells that have nothing to do with sustained damage output or heals. It's similar to the story of the Chinese farmer. "Maybe."

This never happens. Consider Blue.

[douglas1999]

bards. every time i see that far away client-hasnt-rendered-it-yet circling of like 20 mobs i have to leave the room and count to ten

"worst" meaning i hate them the most, of course

[Ennewi]

This never happens. Consider Blue.

Maybe.

[douglas1999]

Wizards cast their darn spells and mages use their heckin earth elemental, which once again proves my theory; richard simmons is gay

[Danth]

Solution to the problem of always being asked to eat deathtouch: Tell the guild "No." See, that was easy. Once in awhile is simply part of such encounters, but if a player's always being asked to do it he should stand up for himself. Too many players allow themselves to be treated like dirt.

[Keebz]

All these classes have floors and ceilings depending on the player. So the question is: do you rate based of the ceiling? the floor? Or the estimated competency of the average player?

If you go off ceiling, rogue/warrior are probably at the bottom. If you go off floor, it's probably ranger, wizard, rogue in some order, but all the hybrids are pretty awful if the player is bad.

Also, do you factor in the EXP penalty? If so it's all the hybrids. A bad Troll SK may be the worst, but a bad bard (one who just melees while playing 1 song) is also quite bad.

[RecondoJoe]

All these classes have floors and ceilings depending on the player. So the question is: do you rate based of the ceiling? the floor? Or the estimated competency of the average player?

If you go off ceiling, rogue/warrior are probably at the bottom. If you go off floor, it's probably ranger, wizard, rogue in some order, but all the hybrids are pretty awful if the player is bad.

Also, do you factor in the EXP penalty? If so it's all the hybrids. A bad Troll SK may be the worst, but a bad bard (one who just melees while playing 1 song) is also quite bad.
I can tell you as someone who plays multiple healers, I love having warriors in my group.
I routinely root mobs anyways, and aggro is essentially a non-issue. Rangers on the other hand I cannot stand having in my groups. I have had so many 5-man groups who were easily holding a camp and then they get the bright idea to invite a ranger and it wipes us because his constant aggro and inability to mitigate damage means I have to spam heals on him the entire time — and then I don’t have mana to heal the essential players.

Rogues have at least pulled my corpses on numerous occasions. I’ve yet to have a Ranger do anything other than get on my nerves.

Wizard is pretty shitty too. Imagine if Wizards couldn’t teleport to the Planes, they would essentially serve no purpose. My Cleric can solo camp stuff easier than most Wizards and that’s really sad.

[gundumbwing]

I can tell you as someone who plays multiple healers, I love having warriors in my group.
I routinely root mobs anyways, and aggro is essentially a non-issue. Rangers on the other hand I cannot stand having in my groups. I have had so many 5-man groups who were easily holding a camp and then they get the bright idea to invite a ranger and it wipes us because his constant aggro and inability to mitigate damage means I have to spam heals on him the entire time — and then I don’t have mana to heal the essential players.

Rogues have at least pulled my corpses on numerous occasions. I’ve yet to have a Ranger do anything other than get on my nerves.

Wizard is pretty shitty too. Imagine if Wizards couldn’t teleport to the Planes, they would essentially serve no purpose. My Cleric can solo camp stuff easier than most Wizards and that’s really sad.

Drugs.

[RecondoJoe]

Drugs.

https://i.imgur.com/qkwhB4C_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[Tethler]

I can tell you as someone who plays multiple healers, I love having warriors in my group.
I routinely root mobs anyways, and aggro is essentially a non-issue. Rangers on the other hand I cannot stand having in my groups. I have had so many 5-man groups who were easily holding a camp and then they get the bright idea to invite a ranger and it wipes us because his constant aggro and inability to mitigate damage means I have to spam heals on him the entire time — and then I don’t have mana to heal the essential players.

Rogues have at least pulled my corpses on numerous occasions. I’ve yet to have a Ranger do anything other than get on my nerves.

Wizard is pretty shitty too. Imagine if Wizards couldn’t teleport to the Planes, they would essentially serve no purpose. My Cleric can solo camp stuff easier than most Wizards and that’s really sad.

Sounds like you've grouped with some bad rangers. Too many of them don't utilize their toolkit fully. Rangers can actually tank fairly well in classic if they gear smartly. Geared in Fear armor, I only have like 40ac less than my guilds fear-geared SK tank. I tanked no problem in many groups while leveling up, and when there was a tank, I was pulling for the group or peeling adds off casters and rooting them, assisting monk pullers with harmony, etc.

A competent ranger can definitely pull their weight. It's the scrubs that just melee and occasionally snare mobs and do nothing else that aren't worth having.

[RecondoJoe]

Sounds like you've grouped with some bad rangers. Too many of them don't utilize their toolkit fully. Rangers can actually tank fairly well in classic if they gear smartly. Geared in Fear armor, I only have like 40ac less than my guilds fear-geared SK tank. I tanked no problem in many groups while leveling up, and when there was a tank, I was pulling for the group or peeling adds off casters and rooting them, assisting monk pullers with harmony, etc.

A competent ranger can definitely pull their weight. It's the scrubs that just melee and occasionally snare mobs and do nothing else that aren't worth having.

I mean, it feels like the Rangers I group with are intentionally grabbing aggro, but I also have memories from 20 years ago about people complaining about the same thing. (Rangers getting aggro and dying). I've used Rangers tanks, but it feels like.... 30-35 is when they start to fall off. Like a Ranger trying to tank Kobold Royals seldom ends well, and it's frustrating when you have an actual tank in the group who takes almost no damage from tanking the same mobs, but he can't because the Ranger has aggro the entire time.

[Jimjam]

Ranger has a million root spells. Against mobs that don’t summon they have very little excuse for taking hits beyond they want to.

[RecondoJoe]

Ranger has a million root spells. Against mobs that don’t summon they have very little excuse for taking hits beyond they want to.

Yeah, it always baffles me too. A Ranger could insure tank always has aggro by rooting mob and stepping back a bit, but very few have any concept of this, and trying to explain it to them just means they'll get angry and start raging. No one in this game likes being told how to play their class, even if they're playing it completely wrong. Watched a Bard explode on someone the other day because they asked if they could interrupt Justicar's when they healed.

[Lurgort/Sseri]

I can tell you as someone who plays multiple healers, I love having warriors in my group.
I routinely root mobs anyways, and aggro is essentially a non-issue. Rangers on the other hand I cannot stand having in my groups. I have had so many 5-man groups who were easily holding a camp and then they get the bright idea to invite a ranger and it wipes us because his constant aggro and inability to mitigate damage means I have to spam heals on him the entire time — and then I don’t have mana to heal the essential players.

Rogues have at least pulled my corpses on numerous occasions. I’ve yet to have a Ranger do anything other than get on my nerves.

Wizard is pretty shitty too. Imagine if Wizards couldn’t teleport to the Planes, they would essentially serve no purpose. My Cleric can solo camp stuff easier than most Wizards and that’s really sad.

Wizards are the 'oh shit, something went wrong' panic button. You can burn a couple things down fast, you can evac if some idiot from Efreeti trains you with a billion imps. It's definitely true they're average, but I've had no problem making friends and regularly grouping with mine. If Wizards were given the Clarity line instead of adding to an Enchanter's already impressive toolbox, It'd make more sense to have a purely mana-based DPS caster class.

Wizards can quadkite, root 'n nuke, and at earlier levels, shoot three 300 range bolts at a mob before it has a chance to deal damage.

[RecondoJoe]

Wizards are the 'oh shit, something went wrong' panic button. You can burn a couple things down fast, you can evac if some idiot from Efreeti trains you with a billion imps. It's definitely true they're average, but I've had no problem making friends and regularly grouping with mine. If Wizards were given the Clarity line instead of adding to an Enchanter's already impressive toolbox, It'd make more sense to have a purely mana-based DPS caster class.

Wizards can quadkite, root 'n nuke, and at earlier levels, shoot three 300 range bolts at a mob before it has a chance to deal damage.

That's true, Wizards do actually fill a real role that's important. Ironically the only time anyone has ever evac'd me was in the exact same scenario you just described (usually people are scared to evac). The reason I say Wizards is bad is because the other INT casters feel insanely powerful due to the nature of their pets. Would probably be pretty awesome playing a Wizard at high level though. I doubt they have as much competition for loot in raids.

[Lurgort/Sseri]

That's true, Wizards do actually fill a real role that's important. Ironically the only time anyone has ever evac'd me was in the exact same scenario you just described (usually people are scared to evac). The reason I say Wizards is bad is because the other INT casters feel insanely powerful due to the nature of their pets. Would probably be pretty awesome playing a Wizard at high level though. I doubt they have as much competition for loot in raids.

Yeah, that's also another perk - low DKP for stuff while enjoying the class you play! Yes, Necros and Mages are far more superior in damagedealing, Mages get shittier in Kunark / Velious in terms of solo-ability, Necros get ridiculously good, and Wizard epic / quadkites become insanely good. Just check out the Pillar of Frost/Fire/Lightning line, efficient stuff.

Unrelated, but there was one encounter in CT where a Paladin decked out in full rubi and a Mith 2H said I should be the one pulling while I was keeping up Conflags on pulls for a good while because yes, I make a point to make friends with Enchanters, one grouped with me.

Dude called me a pussy and I just left the group, what a self-entitled prick.

Back on thread topic...hard to say, NEC/MAG/ENC are on an entirely different level compared to every other class in terms of soloing / damage dealing in Vanilla. Ranger or Rogue gets my pick.

[Danth]

I'd much rather have a Necromancer as the insurance class than a Wizard. With a Wizard if your group gets trained, he evacuates the group and under P1999 rules you've lost claim to whatever it was you were camping. In contrast the Necromancer gamely feigns out while the others die then he rezzes people (at least the cleric) back in, maintaining camp presence the entire time. Essence emeralds are cheap.

------------------------------------------------------------

If some guy keeps pulling unwanted aggro and running you (as the healer) out of mana, endangering the group, then your job is clear: Stop healing the twit until he either gets the memo or eats dirt.

Danth

[Danth]

(Can't edit RnF) I'm aware Necromancer rez is Kunark-era and the thread originated for classic. Almost a moot point; classic is fleeting.

[reznor_]

There aren't any truly bad classes. Only bad players.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I mean, it feels like the Rangers I group with are intentionally grabbing aggro, but I also have memories from 20 years ago about people complaining about the same thing. (Rangers getting aggro and dying). I've used Rangers tanks, but it feels like.... 30-35 is when they start to fall off. Like a Ranger trying to tank Kobold Royals seldom ends well, and it's frustrating when you have an actual tank in the group who takes almost no damage from tanking the same mobs, but he can't because the Ranger has aggro the entire time.

Sounds like just bad players who do not understand aggro.

Rangers tend to opt for low delay weapons like EBWs, we get a 14-delay rat whip in Hate, and we'll invariably go for 19-delay lammies or 18-delay lupine daggers/jade maces in Kunark (unless we go the Woodsman's Staff route), and then some wonder why they're rising up the hate list faster than the tank. This caused us issues in Kunark back on Live because our mitigation did not scale well after level 50, and taunt was broken for warriors for quite some time if I recall correctly. Pre-Kunark, a planar-geared ranger was pretty damn solid in Live if played well. Kunark era was peak squishiness for rangers and when we really started becoming the butt of jokes. The fix? The Jolt/Cinder Jolt spells for aggro management.

I've seen rangers tell me they're gonna camp for dual yaks. Or they leave their flux axe out during raids or while grouping without being the designated tank. Why? They're fixated on the DPS without fully understanding the consequences of the pain they're causing everyone else when aggro shifts off the tank. They've probably exhausted all of their mana using Call of Flame instead of saving it to heal themselves or root the mob so they can back off. Once the mob starts flipping towards them, they can always turn auto-attack off and let the tank build aggro again.

But rangers have some sort of inferiority complex (justified by the way they are shunned by min-maxers) and in my opinion incorrectly seek to justify their group invite with DPS at the risk of over-aggroing, instead of the utility they bring with their arsenal of tools.

[Jibartik]

If it was 1999, and everyone was trying this game out for the first time, the correct answer is:

Warrior

That class was a trashcan and anyone who played one back then knows it, it was so sad. Everyone would throw coins at the poor warriors sitting there by the shore of the oasis trying to find a group.

Their only dps is auto attack.

Nobody knows how to do anything

They're confused why all these other classes can wear plate and cast spells, they are alone.

Warrior

in 99

Was by far the worst class.

But are they in classic with what we know now? idfk.

[Jimjam]

That's true, Wizards do actually fill a real role that's important. Ironically the only time anyone has ever evac'd me was in the exact same scenario you just described (usually people are scared to evac). The reason I say Wizards is bad is because the other INT casters feel insanely powerful due to the nature of their pets. Would probably be pretty awesome playing a Wizard at high level though. I doubt they have as much competition for loot in raids.

On the subject of insanely powerful pets you seem to have forgotten a wizard can summon an eye of zomm to use as a dart board while bored waiting for someone to send a tell for a port for some stupid venture like helping to recover a failed hate break in (where you’ll spend more on stones than you receive as payment).

[Jimjam]

There aren't any truly bad classes. Only bad players.

Kinda, but only a bad player would choose to play a wizard!

[reznor_]

Kinda, but only a bad player would choose to play a wizard!

Well...I play a warrior, monk, and wizard on green :(


Hoisted by mine own petard.

[Jibartik]

Kinda, but only a bad player would choose to play a wizard!

at least the wizard could beat the warrior sitting there with naked legs under is barbarian kilt, in a duel while they both waited for groups 100% of the time. :(

[Gustoo]

They're all good.

[Snortles Chortles]

currious to know what u guys think is the worst class in classic.

ForumQuester

[pivo]

There aren't any truly bad classes. Only bad players.

So true, first hand experience! (bad, slow clumsy player here) ;)

[RecondoJoe]

Well...I play a warrior, monk, and wizard on green :(


Hoisted by mine own petard.

I mean, level 50 Wizard probably has a way more realistic chance of raiding and receiving loot? I had a lot of friends who rushed to 50 on an Enchanter and quit the game after seeing the raid scene, apparently they would be in raids with 15 other enchanters, meanwhile their guilds would barely have enough Wizards to teleport in?

[Arteker]

FACT: my monk back on the combine has pulled, positioned, and tanked full through the entire fight and survived for everything up to and limited to AoW and the few other really really hard hitting targets.. maybe tunare.. idk its been a while, but all im saying is that monks are pretty much capable of doing anything a warrior can with a small amount of exceptions

monk only had that kind of power late velious and while high end geared , people tend to forgot monk had the biggest ac pool and avoidance on velious, the only problem was when they got hit they got hit hard as fuck.
Aswell u needed 2 sods to keep agro

[Arteker]

For exp groups that are in outdoor zones (which is the path most take) they can potentially be the best puller.

bard will do it always better,

rangers realy did not become good dps untill velious and mainly using his haste cloack and primal. due to them having the highest ATK pool in game if done right.

[Arteker]

Paladin and it only goes down hill from here.

Worst DPS, once kunark hits #3 for tank agro.

u are deluded and clueless in regard agro , pala was the premier number 1 agro tank in the game untill stun agro nerf and warriors gettin incite .

towards end of velious palas got buffed in dmg and def to the point they could tank aswell like any warrior wich only had defensive to keep his edge and marginnaly 460 hps more than the pal sk being both class in bis gear .

in classic a full russet pala can tank anything better than any warrior and have roughly same dps , warrior only began to pull ahead on dmg on kunark

[Keebz]

WRT outdoor pulling vs rangers
bard will do it always better...

Bards cannot cast harmony :/ I have played both extensively and while bards have many many advantages, there are just some pulls that are trivial with harmony and a death sentence otherwise. Not to mention ranger tracking is another level.

[Bardp1999]

Bards can harmony but its single target... I guess it's technically a lul