Theoretical XP distribution question

[Frug]

For ease of argument, let's assume 2 characters in a group, of different levels.

When they group and get party XP, is the XP distributed in such a way that they will:

* Level at the same rate? (eg: their level difference will never change; if they were 2 levels apart when they started, they will forever remain so)
* converge? (eg: the lower level char will gain levels at a faster rate until he matches the level of the higher level char)
* diverge? (eg: the higher level char will gain levels at a faster rate than the lower)
* Something else?

Is this relationship the same if the 2 chars have different xp penalties/curves, or is it invariant?

[Cen]

The mob who dies gives out an amount of experience based on its level, but with a multiplier based on the levels above or below each character, to that respective character. There's a percent bonus for the group applied to each character based on group count after the fact. All of the situations you asked about can happen because of this.

[zaneosak]

If characters are the SAME level they will stay the same forever due to the class/race modifiers giving the person with the penalty more XP per mob than the other, thus keeping it even. So someone with a high penalty gets more XP per kill than a lower penalty and you will ding at the same time, because the higher penalized person gets more per kill to compensate for their penalty.

If they are different levels -- the person with "more XP" gets more of the XP per mob kill and will eventually get further ahead over time. "more XP" is represented by the total amount of XP they currently sit at.

For Example a Human Bard just starting level Level 31 has a total currently earned XP of 41,580,000.
If they group with a 29 Human Druid who has just dinged 29 and has a total earned XP of 21,952,000.

Add the two numbers together and take each players current XP level and divide by the total. That will give you how much percent of the the XP each kill offers each player will take. In the 31 bard and 29 druid example. The Bard takes 65% of each kill and the druid takes 35%. While that seems like a huge problem, it's not THAT bad if you kill fast enough.

Using the same example. If the 31 bard and 29 druid are killing level 27 mobs in a zone with no presumed XP bonus, it should take the Druid no more than 8-10% more kills to complete his current level than the bard did (31-32 and 29-30 respectively)

I made a calculator to test these things theoricially back when Green was in Beta just for fun. It's obviously not perfect because ZEMs aren't perfect but I have tested it with my duo and in alot of zones the numbers are usually within 5-15 kills, so again, not perfect but the XP split part should make sense because that part is just math.

Link is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kuGt_NC5Mb7SOEOtAJwWt0gFBbQH1FhndV8CN6BdANE/edit?usp=sharing

Save a copy to your own google drive if you want to play with it. (directions on right)

[cd288]

If characters are the SAME level they will stay the same forever due to the class/race modifiers giving the person with the penalty more XP per mob than the other, thus keeping it even. So someone with a high penalty gets more XP per kill than a lower penalty and you will ding at the same time, because the higher penalized person gets more per kill to compensate for their penalty.

If they are different levels -- the person with "more XP" gets more of the XP per mob kill and will eventually get further ahead over time. "more XP" is represented by the total amount of XP they currently sit at.

For Example a Human Bard just starting level Level 31 has a total currently earned XP of 41,580,000.
If they group with a 29 Human Druid who has just dinged 29 and has a total earned XP of 21,952,000.

Add the two numbers together and take each players current XP level and divide by the total. That will give you how much percent of the the XP each kill offers each player will take. In the 31 bard and 29 druid example. The Bard takes 65% of each kill and the druid takes 35%. While that seems like a huge problem, it's not THAT bad if you kill fast enough.

Using the same example. If the 31 bard and 29 druid are killing level 27 mobs in a zone with no presumed XP bonus, it should take the Druid no more than 8-10% more kills to complete his current level than the bard did (31-32 and 29-30 respectively)

I made a calculator to test these things theoricially back when Green was in Beta just for fun. It's obviously not perfect because ZEMs aren't perfect but I have tested it with my duo and in alot of zones the numbers are usually within 5-15 kills, so again, not perfect but the XP split part should make sense because that part is just math.

Link is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kuGt_NC5Mb7SOEOtAJwWt0gFBbQH1FhndV8CN6BdANE/edit?usp=sharing

Save a copy to your own google drive if you want to play with it. (directions on right)

Cen seems to contradict you above

[Frug]

All of the situations you asked about can happen because of this.

I'm failing to see where you can draw that conclusion, other than "I don't know, so all must be possible". As each character gets his share of XP based on what he's gotten thus far, it seems like they would level mostly at equal rates, because even though one gets less, he requires less to advance.

[aaezil]

Math, how does it work ?

[Cen]

I'm failing to see where you can draw that conclusion, other than "I don't know, so all must be possible". As each character gets his share of XP based on what he's gotten thus far, it seems like they would level mostly at equal rates, because even though one gets less, he requires less to advance.

I was sure I cancelled my reply. Ahh. Well, what i mean is, depending on the time constant, what is staying together is ill defined. I can create group structures where a person gets lost, and has to play catch up, and I can create structures where a person reaches a level that shuts down the exp gain for the group until the highest is removed or replaced.

Get this though: I can also make a rarer structure. One where everyone always stays the same level and experience percentage total for the most part.

That probably satisfies your ultimate question without using maths?

[zaneosak]

Cen seems to contradict you above

It's just math at the end of the day. The group bonus and ZEM bonus gets applied to the mob before the mob gets split up and rewarded. So with 2,3,4,5,6 people in group, the mob xp reward will change before being divvied up. There's no evidence anywhere that I've found that the mob level difference to the player gives any kind of bonus up or down.

Level X mob has a certain amount of XP to reward which goes up or down based on ZEM bonus/penalty and up via how many players are in group. The only thing class/race penalties/bonus do is determine the players XP bar size.

[Cen]

It's just math at the end of the day. The group bonus and ZEM bonus gets applied to the mob before the mob gets split up and rewarded. So with 2,3,4,5,6 people in group, the mob xp reward will change before being divvied up. There's no evidence anywhere that I've found that the mob level difference to the player gives any kind of bonus up or down.

Level X mob has a certain amount of XP to reward which goes up or down based on ZEM bonus/penalty and up via how many players are in group. The only thing class/race penalties/bonus do is determine the players XP bar size.

So the high green light blue mobs don't take the 50% penalty? I dont parse anything but everyone always claims this. I do notice the drop on greens on bard swarming 25s

(Though not many groups I ever encountered fight greens)

Guys just ignore me i dont know what I'm talking about really. I posted in haste theres so many people who know more about exp calculations

[zaneosak]

So the high green light blue mobs don't take the 50% penalty? I dont parse anything but everyone always claims this. I do notice the drop on greens on bard swarming 25s

Ok, you got me. I don't really consider light blues as far as grouping scenarios, they may as well be greens with how little reward they give once split. My calculations are always dark blues or higher. I am aware of the light blue 50% penalty, as I am also aware of the 11% maximum XP per kill cap if you're being power leveled and killing red mobs. I don't really take those into account as far as real time examples of leveling with other group members. So there are some "special case" scenarios that give a hard cap or hard fall off of XP but nothing I'd super relevant on the OPs question about duo-ing and characters staying close or far in level.

cheers

[zaneosak]

So the high green light blue mobs don't take the 50% penalty? I dont parse anything but everyone always claims this. I do notice the drop on greens on bard swarming 25s

(Though not many groups I ever encountered fight greens)

Guys just ignore me i dont know what I'm talking about really. I posted in haste theres so many people who know more about exp calculations

You edit your post when I was posting mine to make the same point, bastard! lol

[Cen]

Oh and I do agree with same level same level forever.. As long as the group is relatively the same percentage through that level.. And honestly, even if they aren't, they won't deviate much. That was the situation where everyone stays the same

[Cen]

Let me reiterate

For ease of argument, let's assume 2 characters in a group, of different levels.

When they group and get party XP, is the XP distributed in such a way that they will:

* Level at the same rate? (eg: their level difference will never change; if they were 2 levels apart when they started, they will forever remain so)
* converge? (eg: the lower level char will gain levels at a faster rate until he matches the level of the higher level char)
* diverge? (eg: the higher level char will gain levels at a faster rate than the lower)
* Something else?

Is this relationship the same if the 2 chars have different xp penalties/curves, or is it invariant?

Same rate: I can create a level 1 to 60 iteration of this
Converge: I can create a small time constant of this
Diverge: I can create a large time constant of this

[Tilien]

For ease of argument, let's assume 2 characters in a group, of different levels.

When they group and get party XP, is the XP distributed in such a way that they will:

* Level at the same rate? (eg: their level difference will never change; if they were 2 levels apart when they started, they will forever remain so)
* converge? (eg: the lower level char will gain levels at a faster rate until he matches the level of the higher level char)
* diverge? (eg: the higher level char will gain levels at a faster rate than the lower)
* Something else?

Is this relationship the same if the 2 chars have different xp penalties/curves, or is it invariant?


XP is divided based proportionally on the XP totals of each group mate. If everyone has 100,000 XP then everyone gains the same xp per kill.

This means that the only time people will level at the same rate, regardless of class/race penalties, will be if they've been grouping since they started the game and never do any quests.

We can then do a calculation of (your xp total)/(xp total of the group) will tell you what fraction of the xp you're pulling in. You can then compare this to how much experience you need to level vs your group mates.

If we look at the experience table if you are level 46 you will "catch up" in levels with your level 51 friend you're grouping with until you hit 51, and then your friend will start to pull ahead again. (with no xp penalties for either). This is because the XP requirement per level for 51+ is more than double the xp requirement per level for 46-50, but the xp total is not double at that point.

So you will both converge and diverge depending on what levels everyone in the group is, and the convergence/divergence will change over time.

Edit: assuming https://wiki.project1999.com/Experience_table is true. I used 50's as an example because it is the most extreme jump in xp. Hell levels will also cause convergence AND divergence over time.

[gnatch]

20 Halfling Warrior +14.5%
6840000 xp
37 kills to level solo
22.89% of pie
162 kills to level in group

20 Human Monk -20%
9600000 xp
51 kills to level solo
32.13% of pie
159 kills to level in group

20 Troll Shadowknight -68%
1344000 xp
71 kills to level solo
44.98% of pie
158 kills to level in group

If you're at the same level you should progress at effectively the same rate.

20 Halfling Warrior +14.5%
6840000 xp
37 kills to level solo
15.96% of pie
225 kills to level in group

22 Human Monk -20%
12777600 xp
51 kills to level solo
29.82% of pie
170 kills to level in group

24 Troll Shadowknight -68%
23224320 xp
71 kills to level solo
54.20% of pie
94 kills to level in group

quickly divergent.

[gnatch]

24 Troll Shadowknight -68%
23224320 xp
71 kills to level solo
54.20% of pie
94 kills to level in group

quickly divergent.

part in bold should be
131 kills to level in group

realized i had the formula wrong in my spreadsheet <.<

Another thought was same xp amounts. Can't edit my post anymore <.<

24 Halfling Warrior +14.5%
11819520 xp
36 kills to level solo
33.33% of pie
108 kills to level in group

21 Human Monk -20%
11819520 xp
51 kills to level solo
33.33% of pie
153 kills to level in group

20 Troll Shadowknight -68%
11819520 xp
71 kills to level solo
33.33% of pie
213 kills to level in group

Also divergent.

[Cen]

Try a level 21 halfling warrior, and 5 level 24 SKs killing mobs who con green to the SKs, but give xp, but con blue to the warrior ;)

I.e. the group that would never exist lol

[Tilien]

part in bold should be
131 kills to level in group

realized i had the formula wrong in my spreadsheet <.<

Another thought was same xp amounts. Can't edit my post anymore <.<

24 Halfling Warrior +14.5%
11819520 xp
36 kills to level solo
33.33% of pie
108 kills to level in group

21 Human Monk -20%
11819520 xp
51 kills to level solo
33.33% of pie
153 kills to level in group

20 Troll Shadowknight -68%
11819520 xp
71 kills to level solo
33.33% of pie
213 kills to level in group

Also divergent.

You need to look at groups in 30's, 40's and 50's. The effect of hell levels will make the convergent/divergent properties change over the group's leveling experience. Convergent leveling would mostly happen in a mixed group of high 40's and low 50's leveled characters (ie, not until Kunark) because the xp required per level rises so quickly post 50.

[cd288]

So basically as a hybrid with an EXP penalty you should always be trying to join groups with people a few levels lower than you and you can sap their EXP and level relatively fast?