Hill Giants FTE?

[Aurorikine]

So I've spent literally hundreds of hours killing Hill Giants and the rule of the land was always HGs are FTE. Today when I mentioned that to someone, he said they are not and there is no where in the rules or forums that say they are. I looked myself to prove him wrong and came up with nothing.
So, did I float along these past years on some fluke that everyone who happened to be around me considered them FTE? Like I put up some shit with such as a monk killing every single HG all afternoon because he could engage quicker than me for some reason. But I didn't complain because I adamantly believed they were FTE. Did I do this for nothing?

[m00r5tuD]

i thought they were FTE as well, most people seem to treat it like that.

[Kavious]

You can sit on one spawn and thats your one Hill Giant camp. You cant claim an area though. Should be in the rules about how outdoor camps work

[zaneosak]

Definitely FTE. I mean technically you can camp a single spawn point outside. If you found a single HG spawn, I don't see how they wouldn't engage you first if you sat on it as well. Seems moot.

[DMN]

There aren't any static hill giant spawns that I'm aware of, so I'm not sure you can even legitimately camp a PH in the first place.

[galach]

You can camp a single Hill Giant if that's the only one you are clearing. You must near that spawn, not kill any other Hill Giants, and engage shortly after spawn (before it starts to roam).

[drdrakes]

There aren't any static hill giant spawns that I'm aware of, so I'm not sure you can even legitimately camp a PH in the first place.

There are 6, often one is Bruug. Someone was bug reporting that in classic they were random and that is what I remember but blue was never like that when I played on it, just the six. 3 up top, two on side of hill, and one out in the 'field'.

[loramin]

You can camp a single Hill Giant if that's the only one you are clearing. You must near that spawn, not kill any other Hill Giants, and engage shortly after spawn (before it starts to roam).

It doesn't get any better than a GM providing a direct answer to your question. But if you have a question about a different camp and you don't get such an answer http://wiki.project1999.com/Camp%20Rules has both a more general breakdown of the rules, and a list of rulings for specific camps.

Which reminds me that I now need to go add this post to the list ...

EDIT: Congrats GM Galach on your first entry on the http://wiki.project1999.com/Rulings page: you're now officially wiki famous ;)

[Kalamurv]

Hopefully they will fix the hill giant spawns to what it was on live during classic onwards where every single mob that paths on or near that hill (3 sides of it) are ph's for hill giants, every bear, lizard, basilisk, drake etc should all have possibility of spawning a hill giant....there should be easily enough of them to support 4 or 5 full groups + a druid or 2 quadding.

[silo32]

This goes for same in oasis at specs?

Druid last night claimed all 8... 4 static 1 static in tower and 3 in top tower...

He didn't want to share and when i tried to kite one he kept dispelling it. I just left.

Maybe things are different here but i once had a shm on red do this to me named Fecal Matter and provided screen shots and sirken said that screen shots are not valid evidence. Also let the player named Fecal matter keep his name.

So glad sirken is gone

[shovelquest]

Oooh not being able to kill any other creatures is a new feature to use when lawyering this rule afaik

"You lost Pzyn because you were clearing the other spawns while I watched"

That's new to me.

[loramin]

Oooh not being able to kill any other creatures is a new feature to use when lawyering this rule afaik

"You lost Pzyn because you were clearing the other spawns while I watched"

That's new to me.

Perhaps that part of the ruling isn't for all outdoor zones, just mobs like HGs (or say Seafuries), where you have a bunch of similar mobs all together, and it unusual to have people camp a spawn point?

My guess would be that, to avoid having fights over "your taking my (five) spawn points!" they essentially say "if you're going to camp one it has to be clear which you're camping, and that means not running around killing as many as you can while claiming to be camping a point".

If I'm guessing that right, clearing random stuff in Qeynos Hills wouldn't be a problem.


P.S. Keep in mind also that these rules only come up when two people dispute a camp. Until someone comes along and says "I want to share", you can clear every mob in QH for as long as you want. It's only when someone says "I want Pyz or Hadden, pick one" then you have to start following rules.

So it's not like someone could come up and say "you took mob X, you lose your camp": they'd have to say "I see that you're doing X and Y: please pick one and lose the other" ... and if you picked Pyz but chased other stuff, then you might have an issue.

[Crimsonghost]

This goes for same in oasis at specs?

Druid last night claimed all 8... 4 static 1 static in tower and 3 in top tower...

He didn't want to share and when i tried to kite one he kept dispelling it. I just left.

Maybe things are different here but i once had a shm on red do this to me named Fecal Matter and provided screen shots and sirken said that screen shots are not valid evidence. Also let the player named Fecal matter keep his name.

So glad sirken is gone

Oasis is an outdoor zone, so yes. Each spec can be considered a camp. Ask him to pick one and you'll take another. If he doesn't cooperate, or concede at least one mob, petition and he will lose.

[Polycaster]

Oooh not being able to kill any other creatures is a new feature to use when lawyering this rule afaik

"You lost Pzyn because you were clearing the other spawns while I watched"

That's new to me.

Yeah, it sounds like a rule that is only in effect if Galach happens to be the responding GM, since I've seen no mention of that "rule" anywhere else.

[galach]

I'm unfamiliar with Pzyn, but if it acts similar to the AC in Sro (can spawn at any location) then I could see how it could be a straight FTE battle.

If it has a set spawn spot (singular) then it would work just like any other campable mob. Again, I don't know how it works, so don't quote me on this.


I know during the peak hours of Seafuries years ago (before Velious) it was common to see individual spawns camped by a singular player since there might be 8 or more people camping them.

[Kalamurv]

I'm curious Galach.....would you consider Quillmane an FTE mob since it has 4? (or is it 3 I forget) separate spawn locations, yet all are based off killing ph's.

[galach]

I'm curious Galach.....would you consider Quillmane an FTE mob since it has 4? (or is it 3 I forget) separate spawn locations, yet all are based off killing ph's.

You can camp a singular PH spawn location yourself. You can't claim every Quillmane unless you have a person at each spawn location.

[loramin]

Yeah, it sounds like a rule that is only in effect if Galach happens to be the responding GM, since I've seen no mention of that "rule" anywhere else.

You're missing something crucial here: it's not that what you said is wrong, it's just that ... EVERY rule is a rule that's only in effect when a given GM shows up, unless it's in the Play Nice Policies (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349). And if you actually read those policies, you'll find that they leave out a lot.

This is by design: remember, the staff are just people who volunteer their time to let everyone else who wants to actually play the game do so. They have the least fun out of any of us, so the system is weighted towards making that not-fun task as painless as it can be for them.

If they had to compile some massive bible of rules for every possible camp, and then anytime they forgot the slightest footnote in it the forum pounced on them ... it'd probably be impossible to get anyone to do the job.

But at the same time, if you understand all that, you can also understand that people who volunteer their time to help are not doing so to play "gotcha" and unfairly suspend people! They absolutely want people to understand the rules, just more on the macro level (essentially "don't be a dick", with a few clarifications) than on a micro "we're going to cover every rule for every spot in this huge virtual world".

[Teppler]

You're not allowed to kill anything else if you're sitting on a static spawn? WTF lol?

[Polycaster]

You're missing something crucial here: it's not that what you said is wrong, it's just that ... EVERY rule is a rule that's only in effect when a given GM shows up, unless it's in the Play Nice Policies (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349). And if you actually read those policies, you'll find that they leave out a lot.

This is by design: remember, the staff are just people who volunteer their time to let everyone else who wants to actually play the game do so. They have the least fun out of any of us, so the system is weighted towards making that not-fun task as painless as it can be for them.

If they had to compile some massive bible of rules for every possible camp, and then anytime they forgot the slightest footnote in it the forum pounced on them ... it'd probably be impossible to get anyone to do the job.

But at the same time, if you understand all that, you can also understand that people who volunteer their time to help are not doing so to play "gotcha" and unfairly suspend people! They absolutely want people to understand the rules, just more on the macro level (essentially "don't be a dick", with a few clarifications) than on a micro "we're going to cover every rule for every spot in this huge virtual world".


So they don't want to create a system of precise rules, but Galach just created such a precise rule out of thin air, which may or may not apply at any given time, which only forum-dwellers will know about since its extremely unintuitive, and you think this is an example of keeping things simple? This is neither simple nor predictable, nor fair. If someone is camping a spawn spot, and attacks an HG wandering by unengaged, some guy can immediately run in and grab the spawn pt he was sitting on? What if he attacks a basilisk or a lizard man?

This is the problem with trying to control things: the more rules you make, the more star systems slip through your fingers.

[loramin]

So they don't want to create a system of precise rules, but Galach just created such a precise rule out of thin air, which may or may not apply at any given time, which only forum-dwellers will know about since its extremely unintuitive, and you think this is an example of keeping things simple? This is neither simple nor predictable, nor fair. If someone is camping a spawn spot, and attacks an HG wandering by unengaged, some guy can immediately run in and grab the spawn pt he was sitting on? What if he attacks a basilisk or a lizard man?

This is the problem with trying to control things: the more rules you make, the more star systems slip through your fingers.

No, Galach didn't create anything (except a forum post).

I, a player, added his "ruling" quote to the wiki, as I do every time I see one. But again, that does not create some kind of rules bible: the staff is under no obligation to follow the camp rules page or any other GM's (or even their own) previous rulings. All of that only exists to give players a sense of how future GMs are likely rule, not to promise them anything.

But again, the staff doesn't do any of this to confuse people, and even in this thread Galach took pains to say "hey I don't know the deal with Pyzjn, so all I'll say is we'll be consistent with other stuff". So similarly here, if this is confusing, they'll likely clear it up at some point. In fact, as you can see on the Rulings page, that's happened before: a GM gave an incorrect ruling in the forum, and later it got cleared up. They're human after all.

Until then, anyone trying to draw some general server rule from Galach commenting on one specific case doesn't seem to understand how the staff handles rules at all. What I think people should take from it is ... IF you are somewhere like Seafuries/Hill Giants, which normally is a mess of mobs running around ... and IF, for whatever reason (eg. it's so busy on Seafury island there are more players than spawn points) you decide to camp a single point, and then IF on top of that you go kill some more mobs while waiting for your point, and IF during that time someone doesn't realize that point is yours, so you get into a dispute, and IF a GM gets involved ...

... THEN, MAYBE, you might have to stick to your one Hill Giant/Seafury/whatever spawn and not go after any others.

[galach]

This is how it has always worked with these hill giant & seafury spawns since 2010 when I was a player.

I don't think many people remember how packed these camps were before Velious.

[loramin]

This is how it has always worked with these hill giant & seafury spawns since 2010 when I was a player.

I don't think many people remember how packed these camps were before Velious.

Heh, well Seafuries are certainly quite a contrast compared to back in the day :)

But what I think this tempest in a teacup boils down to is that most camp disputes are on clear named spawn points, so those rules have become well known. When you apply the general rules for them to an area where everyone else is just FTE-ing, and have one person camp a point, it becomes messy (a perfect example of the larger point that it's impossible to make rules cover everything without creating a "bible").

What I read your quote as was basically "people trying to claim a spawn point, while also running around grabbing more FTE, in an area where everyone else is FTEing is ... a mess, so if you're going to do that, it has to be clear that you're doing one point, and that means only doing one point" ... but I think it's being taken as some new restriction on any outdoor camp.

I will admit that particular wrinkle about sticking to the mob you're camping was news to me too ... but that's not to say I'm disagreeing with you at all, it's just I've never tried camping an HG point, or heard of anyone doing so and getting into a dispute. But just because we players haven't heard of a case, it doesn't mean you GMs haven't, and that you're making a ruling out of nowhere.

[cd288]

Outdoor mobs generally FTE, but you can lay claim to a single static spawn point (or come to some other arrangement with the other players in the area as to who gets how many spawns).

For outdoor mobs that are triggered by PHs and could spawn at multiple different points in the zone, you can't claim the mob just because you're killing the PHs (unless you have a group of people and everyone in your group is holding down one of the possible spawn points of the mob).

[Kohedron]

You just ran into the very typical rule-lawyer on P99.

[Teppler]

Heh, well Seafuries are certainly quite a contrast compared to back in the day :)

But what I think this tempest in a teacup boils down to is that most camp disputes are on clear named spawn points, so those rules have become well known. When you apply the general rules for them to an area where everyone else is just FTE-ing, and have one person camp a point, it becomes messy (a perfect example of the larger point that it's impossible to make rules cover everything without creating a "bible").

What I read your quote as was basically "people trying to claim a spawn point, while also running around grabbing more FTE, in an area where everyone else is FTEing is ... a mess, so if you're going to do that, it has to be clear that you're doing one point, and that means only doing one point" ... but I think it's being taken as some new restriction on any outdoor camp.

I will admit that particular wrinkle about sticking to the mob you're camping was news to me too ... but that's not to say I'm disagreeing with you at all, it's just I've never tried camping an HG point, or heard of anyone doing so and getting into a dispute. But just because we players haven't heard of a case, it doesn't mean you GMs haven't, and that you're making a ruling out of nowhere.

Here's the thing. There's static HG points where they pop but most of them aren't. There are 1 or 2 that are static spawns. I don't believe any Seafuries are static spawns. I'm not sure if you are missing that.

[loramin]

Here's the thing. There's static HG points where they pop but most of them aren't. There are 1 or 2 that are static spawns. I don't believe any Seafuries are static spawns. I'm not sure if you are missing that.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "I don't believe any Seafuries are static spawns". There are definitely places where Seafuries spawn, and those places have a fixed timer, don't move around, and don't have non-Seafury PHs, so ... to me they seem static?

Either way though, my point was ... when you're camping Hadden (or most mobs), it's VERY clear. But when you're on a hill with a bunch of giants, it's not, because most people are running around grabbing FTEs. And it's more confusing when you're also grabbing FTEs, but telling other people they can't FTE one particular point at the same time.

So all I was saying is, I don't think Galach is making some blanket statement for every outdoor spawn point ... my guess was he only meant ones (like HG/Seafuries) where a person picking one point to camp could get confusing (and problematic for camp disputes) IF they're also racing around grabbing more mobs ... ergo, they can't also race around grabbing mobs.

[Teppler]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "I don't believe any Seafuries are static spawns". There are definitely places where Seafuries spawn, and those places have a fixed timer, don't move around, and don't have non-Seafury PHs, so ... to me they seem static?

Either way though, my point was ... when you're camping Hadden (or most mobs), it's VERY clear. But when you're on a hill with a bunch of giants, it's not, because most people are running around grabbing FTEs. And it's more confusing when you're also grabbing FTEs, but telling other people they can't FTE one particular point at the same time.

So all I was saying is, I don't think Galach is making some blanket statement for every outdoor spawn point ... my guess was he only meant ones (like HG/Seafuries) where a person picking one point to camp could get confusing (and problematic for camp disputes) IF they're also racing around grabbing more mobs ... ergo, they can't also race around grabbing mobs.

Well I don't know then. I always thought seafuries spawned in a general range and not specific spots and that those were examples of the outdoor mobs that aren't campable.

[Doktoor]

So the way it's working now, post-merge, is that people are sitting on top of individual HG spawn points. Before the merge, most people were pulling off to the side and just doing FTE because the amount of spawns was > the people camping them except occasionally during peak hours.

Now, people are literally medding right where the HGs spawn and killing one through FTE as the mob spawns where they're sitting.

And you have some people that can kill them quickly, like lvl 50 magies/sham, etc, that will sit until one spawn, then move and sit on another spawn.

The result is that it's made it impossible to grab any HG without sitting at one of the spawn locations.

[galach]

So the way it's working now, post-merge, is that people are sitting on top of individual HG spawn points. Before the merge, most people were pulling off to the side and just doing FTE because the amount of spawns was > the people camping them except occasionally during peak hours.

Now, people are literally medding right where the HGs spawn and killing one through FTE as the mob spawns where they're sitting.

And you have some people that can kill them quickly, like lvl 50 magies/sham, etc, that will sit until one spawn, then move and sit on another spawn.

The result is that it's made it impossible to grab any HG without sitting at one of the spawn locations.

It will just get crazier as more people hit max level and want to farm plat. It was almost impossible for myself to get more than 1 Hill Giant or Seafury's in a spawn cycle unless it was 2 am during the week on blue before Velious.

[Corbin]

Well I don't know then. I always thought seafuries spawned in a general range and not specific spots and that those were examples of the outdoor mobs that aren't campable.

I sat on individual Seafury spawns during Kunark.

I understood the rule at the time as:

You could camp one singular spawn provided you remained near it and were present when it spawned, engaging without delay. You were allowed to engage nearby spawns and wandering mobs as FTE, provided they were not similarly camped. As more players arrived to contest, you needed to remain on the spawn to show clear intent and allow them to choose other spawn locations.

[shovelquest]

I'm unfamiliar with Pzyn, but if it acts similar to the AC in Sro (can spawn at any location) then I could see how it could be a straight FTE battle.

If it has a set spawn spot (singular) then it would work just like any other campable mob. Again, I don't know how it works, so don't quote me on this.


I know during the peak hours of Seafuries years ago (before Velious) it was common to see individual spawns camped by a singular player since there might be 8 or more people camping them.

Outdoor mobs often have multiple triggers that spawn at multiple spots, so sometimes you HAVE to kill more than 1 to get them to spawn (unless you want to reduce your chance of spawning your named by thousands of percent)

So the way the old rule worked was:

You could claim 1 outdoor spawn, you could kill other mobs, but could only lay claim to any 1 outdoor spawn.

The rule of (that I am paraphrasing) "You can claim 1 outdoor spawn, or one spawn area/room indoors... so long as you can kill the spawn in a reasonable amount of time - aka if you're meding from 5% t to kill your one spawn, that is not reasonable." works fine.

I find it feels like we're slipping back to our old days where we had different rules for different camps, which is bad news for petitioning and players.

Having to only kill the mob you CLAIM will force players to sit there like an idiot while you wait for it to spawn and plenty of juicy creatures path right by you. Take this Hillgiant example, as an example. :)

Hillgiant example:

2 players claim Hill giants, one is capable of killing all of them, but the other is not.

both players kill their spawn, but there are roamers that are not being claimed by anyone.

In this case, then BOTH PLAYERS have to sit there and watch the other hillgiants path around and avoid agro from them or they will be engaged and "lose their camp"...

If a player can FTE a hillgiants that are not claimed by another player, you should be able to kill it and not lose your claim, so long as you can kill your claimed spawn in a reasonable amount of time (again killing the last 10% of a hill giant, while your claimed spawn walks away, is not reasonable).

If 5 players are camping Hill Giants, every once and a while any one of them will get a 6th hill giant. Otherwise, those 5 people would have to just watch that thing path around yelling at each other not to touch it or they will lose their claimed spawn.

Demigog says in OOC "There's only 5 of us so if anyone kills that 6th hill giant Im petitioning ALL OF YOU!"

Im not a GM but this was how rules worked for the last few years. And Maybe they changed since green, but this was it up to greens launch for a few years at least.

[AgentEpilot]

FTE, and the sitting on spawn thing is fine but they get like 10 seconds before its FTE.

[Menden]

The PNP clearly states you can claim a single spawn point in an open-outdoor zone. This is more intended for camps like Hadden, Stormfeather or OOT AC. But some players are petty enough to sit on a single spawn point like a HG or a black bear.

Pyzjn is no exemption to this policy. She has multiple spawn locations and can be triggered. Not exactly like Quilmane but close enough for this example. Like it's been said before, sure you can "camp" them but you need to have players on every spawn point and get FTE within a reasonable amount of time.
If you have a team trying to spawn one of these mobs and another player sees Pyzjn or QM wondering around, the player assigned to that spawn location messed up. It's that simple.


Something else to consider, this policy was created to give players some sort of guide how to behave because without it there would be KSing and a very long convoluted set of rules.

The bottom line is, don't be a douche out there. If a player is camping Oasis Specs, BBM dorfs, or SK Spire Gnolls, find something else to do. It's not worth the conflict.

[Doktoor]

The bottom line is, don't be a douche out there.

It's too bad that this couldn't be the only rule.

[Kalamurv]

You can camp a singular PH spawn location yourself. You can't claim every Quillmane unless you have a person at each spawn location.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with how quillmane works but the ph's that spawn quillmane are nowhere near the spawn locations. Basically there are 2 place holders that spawn near aviak village, and killing those can spawn quillmane at any of his locations, one quillmane spawns near aviaks, one in the far north east near the centaurs and another one by hermits, all spawned by the 2 place holders near aviaks

[Kalamurv]

Personally I think pyzin and quillmane both should be considered a single camp as you have to clear ph's to spawn them, regardless of where they spawn (blame verant / sony for creating a stupid spawn system for these 2 mobs....and if AC in south ro was classic spawn there is actually a place holder for him as well that the devs revealed many years later because no one could figure it out). There is absolutely nothing worse than spending hours clearing place holders to spawn a mob, only to have some idiot that happened to zone in and run into it before you could run and catch it.

[Kalamurv]

Forgot to mention one last thing about spawning quillmane....quillmane spawns almost instantaneously after killing either of the 2 placeholders, and unless you are a guide / gm, or using some sort of macroquest hack to warp over to the spawn it is simply impossible to get there (especially the centaur spawn point which with sow is still a damn long run to get to) before random_wanderingdruid/ranger sees it on track and snags it

[Fawqueue]

Personally I think pyzin and quillmane both should be considered a single camp as you have to clear ph's to spawn them, regardless of where they spawn (blame verant / sony for creating a stupid spawn system for these 2 mobs....and if AC in south ro was classic spawn there is actually a place holder for him as well that the devs revealed many years later because no one could figure it out). There is absolutely nothing worse than spending hours clearing place holders to spawn a mob, only to have some idiot that happened to zone in and run into it before you could run and catch it.

Yeah but the spirit of this project is to recreate the Classic experience, not correct it. And it was very Classic for both of those mobs to be open to sniping someone else's hard work.

[cd288]

FTE, and the sitting on spawn thing is fine but they get like 10 seconds before its FTE.

For a static spawn? That's not true.

If someone is camping a single static spawn, they definitely get more than 10 seconds before it's FTE. They have to be "actively" clearing it...which means they have time to med up, for instance, so long as they are going to kill the mob once they have sufficient mana. They can't go afk or just sit there refusing to kill the mob obviously or they lose the camp, but 10 seconds? That's just not true.

[Erati]

No one respects Pyjzn as a camp

Theres 1-5 people running around at each spawn point every night regardless who killed the PH.

[BlackBellamy]

I'm not sure if you are familiar with how quillmane works but the ph's that spawn quillmane are nowhere near the spawn locations. Basically there are 2 place holders that spawn near aviak village, and killing those can spawn quillmane at any of his locations, one quillmane spawns near aviaks, one in the far north east near the centaurs and another one by hermits, all spawned by the 2 place holders near aviaks

He knows how it works, just didn't phrase it right because he said PHs instead of spawn locations. He means you need a 1 guy to clear the PH and 3 to sit on the spawn points.

[BlackBellamy]

This goes for same in oasis at specs?

Specs in Oasis and OOT have always been considered a single camp. If you want to muscle in and force a share, the GMs will back you up but realize you're the guy going against custom and tradition.

[loramin]

For a static spawn? That's not true.

If someone is camping a single static spawn, they definitely get more than 10 seconds before it's FTE. They have to be "actively" clearing it...which means they have time to med up, for instance, so long as they are going to kill the mob once they have sufficient mana. They can't go afk or just sit there refusing to kill the mob obviously or they lose the camp, but 10 seconds? That's just not true.

I wouldn't go quite as far as "That's just not true." I think you're mostly correct, but ...

The staff has never defined specific times for these things, only that they be "reasonable", and again this goes back to not having a bible of rules. Most of the time, yes, absolutely, 10 seconds won't be "reasonable" ... but imagine you're on Blue doing Hill Giants. There's a whole mess of HGs running around, but you want to be a rules lawyer and claim a single spawn point (it's your right to do so :rolleyes:), resulting in you picking fights with anyone that tries to take the giant from that spawn point.

Well in that particular case, 10 seconds might actually be reasonable: if you don't grab it fast, the giant from that point quickly becomes indistinguishable from any other giant, at least to anyone else. If you don't grab it quick, it's less about you camping a spawn point, and more about you letting a time bomb run around, and then when anyone tries to touch "your" time bomb you start a completely unnecessary fight.

The whole point of the rules is to avoid fights, not create them, and (I imagine) the whole point of not specifying a time is so that, in weird situations like that, the staff can say "no you have to engage your giant before they run off and start partying with the other giants" ... without our rules lawyer player saying "but I have two minutes to engage my mob, it says so in the rules!"

[shovelquest]

Should make the rule in outdoor zones that you have as much time as it takes for the mob to start pathing, which could be anywhere from half a second to a few minuets depending on the creature.

Would be relatively straightforward to lawyer and most mobs path away at a average rate except for a few and for those just be ready on time!

And for the ones that dont path, congrats those are the most chill outdoor spawns to camp :P

[Doktoor]

Specs in Oasis and OOT have always been considered a single camp. If you want to muscle in and force a share, the GMs will back you up but realize you're the guy going against custom and tradition.

Agreed.

[Velerin]

Hah the rules lawyering that always goes on here cracks me up. I remember when I first tried the TLPs I thought the DPS wins, no camps was stupid but in reality 90% of the time people actually were just cool and respected camps. The more rules you have the more people try to twist and distort them to justify dumb things. I dream about a place where people just follow the don’t be a dbag rule but that’s probably non existent...
It’s nice being back here playing. I missed a lot of the things that make p99 better than the pseudo classic on TLPs. Except temporary sky keys..those are just evil.

[TripSin]

Can someone give me a tl;dr? Are they FTE or what? Also, are they static spawns (whatever that means?) do they have placeholders?

[Kalamurv]

As it is right now they aren't static but have static spawn locations....and ph's aren't in as they should be which is why theres only 7? spawns of them.

[TripSin]

As it is right now they aren't static but have static spawn locations....and ph's aren't in as they should be which is why theres only 7? spawns of them.

oh ok.... i don't really understand, but thanks anyways.

[Videri]

If you define a static spawn as a mob that doesn’t roam, then no, HGs aren’t static. Each HG does have one spawn point, though, and no placeholders; so you can sit at one spawn point and camp it.

You can camp a single Hill Giant if that's the only one you are clearing. You must near that spawn, not kill any other Hill Giants, and engage shortly after spawn (before it starts to roam).

[Tethler]

Can someone give me a tl;dr? Are they FTE or what?

Yes, FTE

[Kalamurv]

That's pretty much what I meant Videri….on p99 all hill giants have specific spawn points, but with seconds of spawning they will start pathing around, or attacking npcs. I always got a kick out of watching them wipe out those silly guards up on top of the hill.

[DMN]

What? the HGs don't have PHs on P99?

[Tethler]

What? the HGs don't have PHs on P99?

I guess not. People saying that the lizardmen and basalisks and shit aren't on the same spawn table, so there are only like 7 that can ever spawn instead of the potential for many being up.

[TripSin]

I guess not. People saying that the lizardmen and basalisks and shit aren't on the same spawn table, so there are only like 7 that can ever spawn instead of the potential for many being up.

Uh, so is there any way we can get an acutal confirmation as to what the actual heck is going on on our server with the placeholders and spawn tables? I've read old allakhazam posts or whatnot saying that all the low level fodder there serve as giant placeholders so I've been killing those in the hopes of getting more to spawn but then people are saying they aren't placeholders and killing them doesn't matter so wtf??????

[DMN]

I guess not. People saying that the lizardmen and basalisks and shit aren't on the same spawn table, so there are only like 7 that can ever spawn instead of the potential for many being up.

From the sounds of it, thee might be too many spawning actually. The HG are supposed ALL have PHs and they just have a moderate chance of spawning a HG when killed . If the HGs dont have Ps then they always spawn HGs, and that's wrong.

[Kalamurv]

Its actually far to few spawning, 7 static spawn locations instead of all of the lizardman bears basilisk giant skellys cyclops drakes (and their named) being a ph for hill giants. They have no ph right now, those 7 locations always spawn a hill giant, where as they should be on same spawn table as the other mobs with chance at having 15-20 up (or more)

[Tethler]

I don't have any evidence myself. Haven't camped rathe mtns HGs in years on blue and never on green. Just repeating what I've seen discussed on the forums.

As far as too many, or not enough, I'm not sure. Sounds like now it's 7 spawns that always spawn as HGs instead of X number of spawns that can spawn as HG, or cyclops, or lizard, or basaslisk like it was believed to be on live. I don't remember where I saw it discussed here on the forums, but if it was a bug thread, then there is a chance it will be corrected if sufficient evidence was provided.

[DMN]

7 100% spawns are a lot better than 12 30-35% chance spawns.

[DrShadows]

Yes that’s good math DMN but it wouldn’t be 12 spawns it would be more like ~40

[douglas1999]

I've noticed odd things that seem wrong with outdoor spawns in general on p99. Like in classic I don't remember there ever being "static lion that always spawns in this one spot and doesn't roam". Or "there are five elephant spawns in this zone and they always spawn elephants". I seem to remember basically everything in, say, south karana, was a potential PH for every other generic trash mob. So a roaming elephant spawn might sometimes spawn a lion or a lioness or a low level aviak etc.. Obv exceptions would be static non-roamers like the gnolls outside paw. In any case, 7 static HG spawns in rathe mountains that always spawn HG's *definitely* doesn't sound right. The whole "find evidence" thing is kind of frustrating sometimes, if like 99% of people remember things being a certain way, it probably was that way.

[loramin]

I've noticed odd things that seem wrong with outdoor spawns in general on p99. Like in classic I don't remember there ever being "static lion that always spawns in this one spot and doesn't roam". Or "there are five elephant spawns in this zone and they always spawn elephants". I seem to remember basically everything in, say, south karana, was a potential PH for every other generic trash mob. So a roaming elephant spawn might sometimes spawn a lion or a lioness or a low level aviak etc.. Obv exceptions would be static non-roamers like the gnolls outside paw. In any case, 7 static HG spawns in rathe mountains that always spawn HG's *definitely* doesn't sound right. The whole "find evidence" thing is kind of frustrating sometimes, if like 99% of people remember things being a certain way, it probably was that way.

Honestly, I think it's a little more complex than you make it out to be.

I don't think Nilbog is 100% certain of the classic-ness of every spawn point in every zone, so I don't think he requires solid evidence to make any changes. If you could find a whole bunch of people in this forum who all agree that "X was a certain way", and there's no classic evidence to the contrary, I'd imagine he'd want to change it

In other words, I'd guess he does consider lots of people remembering X as "evidence for X" ...

... it's just that I'd also imagine his priorities are something like:


stuff there's evidence for
stuff whole community has the same memory of
his own personal memory
how it currently is
one random player claiming one thing based on their memory

[Erati]

outdoor spawns were very much custom built from ground up

[galach]

Its actually far to few spawning, 7 static spawn locations instead of all of the lizardman bears basilisk giant skellys cyclops drakes (and their named) being a ph for hill giants. They have no ph right now, those 7 locations always spawn a hill giant, where as they should be on same spawn table as the other mobs with chance at having 15-20 up (or more)

If you have proof or want to research it please post it in the bug forum.

[Danth]

I don't think Nilbog is 100% certain of the classic-ness of every spawn point in every zone, so I don't think he requires solid evidence to make any changes. If you could find a whole bunch of people in this forum who all agree that "X was a certain way", and there's no classic evidence to the contrary, I'd imagine he'd want to change it

There's also the question of motivation: Even with the necessary information in-hand, someone has to want to go in and clean things up.

A lot of the old world zones, especially outdoor zones, can be in somewhat rough shape on P1999. Remember that P1999 wasn't wholly new construction; it was based off stock EQ-EMU from ~2008-2009 then backdated as needed. Pathing was added but the nodes or "tracks" mobs follow can in some cases be limited and some creatures were missed entirely, hence where the static non-roamers come from. My experience is that P1999's expansion zones (Kunark and Velious) tend to be much better in this respect, probably owing to the protracted development cycle for those areas compared to the original content which was prepared in more rapid fashion.

Danth

[cd288]

I've noticed odd things that seem wrong with outdoor spawns in general on p99. Like in classic I don't remember there ever being "static lion that always spawns in this one spot and doesn't roam". Or "there are five elephant spawns in this zone and they always spawn elephants". I seem to remember basically everything in, say, south karana, was a potential PH for every other generic trash mob. So a roaming elephant spawn might sometimes spawn a lion or a lioness or a low level aviak etc.. Obv exceptions would be static non-roamers like the gnolls outside paw. In any case, 7 static HG spawns in rathe mountains that always spawn HG's *definitely* doesn't sound right. The whole "find evidence" thing is kind of frustrating sometimes, if like 99% of people remember things being a certain way, it probably was that way.

I don't recall it being this way at all. How would you know it was this way? The mobs in SK for example aren't static, so how would you know that Elephant you see wandering around doesn't always respawn as an Elephant when it's killed? Are you saying you sat in SK killing one generic trash mob at its spawn point over and over and over again and it always spawned something different...because if so I'm going to guess that you never actually did that because why would someone kill one singular trash mob spawn point over and over for no reason.

[Danth]

He is correct. There are numerous elephants that only spawn as elephants in South Karana, some of which only follow specific short pathing routes not shared by anything else. This includes but is not limited to the Cracktusk placeholder elephant. This behavior is widely known by players who have spent significant time in the zone on P1999.

Danth

[douglas1999]

I don't recall it being this way at all. How would you know it was this way? The mobs in SK for example aren't static, so how would you know that Elephant you see wandering around doesn't always respawn as an Elephant when it's killed? Are you saying you sat in SK killing one generic trash mob at its spawn point over and over and over again and it always spawned something different...because if so I'm going to guess that you never actually did that because why would someone kill one singular trash mob spawn point over and over for no reason.

For the same reason I noticed on p99 how the same mobs always path in the same places, I also noticed in classic that they do not. I don't think its a particularly hard thing to notice if you just spend a lot of time in a particular zone. What I remember is that the paths roamers would follow were unchanging, but *which mob* you would see following that path would vary. It wasn't always an elephant following path X every single time.

[fridayjones]

Hill Giants were sort of a big deal for Wizards, and I kited a bunch of them. In classic/Kunark, they shared a whole bunch of random spawnpoints with lizardmen, basilisks, and several similar lower-level "trash" mobs, so if you got there and there weren't any HG's, you could kill off some trash mobs and they'd spawn like gangbusters.

That being said, the random outdoor spawning was really weird in EQ, and things tended to happen in clusters. There were several places that were "more likely" to spawn hill giants. The wider valley on one side of HG Hill seemed like such a spot, as were three distinct areas on the top of HG Hill, plus right at the northernmost tip where the two valleys meet. People used to camp those spots because they generated more HG's.

[cd288]

He is correct. There are numerous elephants that only spawn as elephants in South Karana, some of which only follow specific short pathing routes not shared by anything else. This includes but is not limited to the Cracktusk placeholder elephant. This behavior is widely known by players who have spent significant time in the zone on P1999.

Danth

Okay, so where is the evidence that it's inaccurate versus what it was back in the day?

[Kalamurv]

If you have proof or want to research it please post it in the bug forum.

Dolanin (sp?) posted proof in a thread titled question about hill giants that I started before this thread came up, with Telin replying to the thread so does it still need to put posted in bugs?

[DMN]

Since I played on test server, a server that often only had 100 people during primetime, many times I went to rathe mountains on my druid to kill some HGs like I could do on fennin or rallos. However. on test server often what would happpen is one person would pass through and just kill the HGs that were up and then leave. When i would get there the zone would be completely deviod of HGs. That's because their non HG spawns had popped and were never cleared. The hill giants had several PHs like basilisks and cyclops and only had a moderate chance of spawning. I'm guessing if there were three things that could pop, each would have a 1/3 chance of popping after being killed.

Long story short, there are actually too many HGs on p99 if what people here are saying is true.

[Doktoor]

While that may be the case that there were no HGs up, I never saw that on live in 2000 when I was killing them. Verant often times made ninja changes to spawns and it's quite possible that what happened on test server was different than live in 1999 and then changed again in 2000, etc.

[DMN]

While that may be the case that there were no HGs up, I never saw that on live in 2000 when I was killing them. Verant often times made ninja changes to spawns and it's quite possible that what happened on test server was different than live in 1999 and then changed again in 2000, etc.

Of course you wouldn't see that on the normal servers because on normal servers rathe would always have 30+ people in it and the PHs would all be being killed in short order.

And there was no secret code on the test server. the test server just patched to the "next major patch" ahead of normal servers.

[Mr-B]

Just to throw my two cents in, I played on Fennin Ro during Kunark/Velious on a druid and I distinctly remember seeing people complain in OOC that no one was killing the PHs to make HGs spawn.

[Kalamurv]

Since I played on test server, a server that often only had 100 people during primetime, many times I went to rathe mountains on my druid to kill some HGs like I could do on fennin or rallos. However. on test server often what would happpen is one person would pass through and just kill the HGs that were up and then leave. When i would get there the zone would be completely deviod of HGs. That's because their non HG spawns had popped and were never cleared. The hill giants had several PHs like basilisks and cyclops and only had a moderate chance of spawning. I'm guessing if there were three things that could pop, each would have a 1/3 chance of popping after being killed.

Long story short, there are actually too many HGs on p99 if what people here are saying is true.

I think you may want to consider reading comprehension lessons if you somehow came to the conclusion that there are to many hill giants on p99. You've heard from multiple people all saying that there were 4 or 5 camps for groups, druids / wizzies kiting / quadding...7 hill giants can't even support more than a single group let alone multiple.

If you go check out the thread titled "a question about hill giant population" (or something similar) that I posted, Dolanin posted proof that we have FAR FAR to FEW giants spawning. The hill giants should be tied to the place holders as you yourself have said, and many others, and NOT how they spawn on p99 (7 static spawn locations with no place holders). Dolanin also had a post showing number of spawns in rathe mountains, with there being 15? hill giants at the time that zone parse was done.

If you consider how many bears, drakes, lizards, giant skellys and cyclops that can and do spawn on and around the hill here....each of those having a chance to spawn a hill giant, regardless of how low that number is means there could easily be (on the super rare chance) in theory 30 or 40 hill giants up at once, if not more. Someone would have to actually count how many of them path on / around the hill (static mobs aren't on same spawn table), you can easily see how many there would be a possibility of being up at once.

[silo32]

if there are only 7 static HG's in rathe something isn't right... I do remember that place being loaded with giants at some point... 7 tho that's barely 2 kites...

as well as low lvl mobs being ph's for spawns

[DMN]

I think you may want to consider reading comprehension lessons if you somehow came to the conclusion that there are to many hill giants on p99. You've heard from multiple people all saying that there were 4 or 5 camps for groups, druids / wizzies kiting / quadding...7 hill giants can't even support more than a single group let alone multiple.


I'd be very careful questioning someone else's reading comprehension of I were you.

There were 4 full groups camping the HHK goblins back in the day. There were full groups camping single enchanter pets. It means nothing.



If you go check out the thread titled "a question about hill giant population" (or something similar) that I posted, Dolanin posted proof that we have FAR FAR to FEW giants spawning. The hill giants should be tied to the place holders as you yourself have said, and many others, and NOT how they spawn on p99 (7 static spawn locations with no place holders). Dolanin also had a post showing number of spawns in rathe mountains, with there being 15? hill giants at the time that zone parse was done.



Ok, listen very carefully, what he posted showed a theoretical maximum amount of HGs in rathe mountains. That means if you killed all the Phs and AND all HGs spawned you get 12(i think it was 12). The chance to spawn from a PH is not the same thing as a static spawn that always pops. Even if we gave a completely unlikely 50% chance for a HG to spawn after a PH or HG is killed, it would still be less than having 7 always spawning HGs. There is zero evidence that there were more than 12 that has been shown.

Even with that said I can't even fully trust the data he posted because of errors I pointed out in already. It's double counting some NPCs for some reason.

[shovelquest]

There were 4 full groups camping the HHK goblins back in the day. There were full groups camping single enchanter pets. It means nothing.


There used to be 3 full groups on live in the pond area/canyon where those red dots are:

https://i.imgur.com/BUAxhlp.png

lol we couldnt hack the hardcore EQ on p99 and had to split the server :cool:

we're all casual down here.

https://i.imgur.com/WAKC6VK.png

:o

[Modwolf]

There used to be 3 full groups on live in the pond area/canyon where those red dots are:

https://i.imgur.com/BUAxhlp.png

lol we couldnt hack the hardcore EQ on p99 and had to split the server :cool:

we're all casual down here.

https://i.imgur.com/WAKC6VK.png

:o

[Telin]

I know this isn’t a bug thread, but some changes were made relating to this topic pending update.

[Dural_Levant]

What does "FTE" stand for?

Is there a page on the wiki that explains all the jargon used in the p99 forums?

[Blingy]

What does "FTE" stand for?

Is there a page on the wiki that explains all the jargon used in the p99 forums?

First To Engage

First person on the mobs hate list gets first dibs on killing the mob.

[loramin]

What does "FTE" stand for?

Is there a page on the wiki that explains all the jargon used in the p99 forums?

Not that I know of, but someone could always start one ... it's a wiki :D

[fastboy21]

So I've spent literally hundreds of hours killing Hill Giants and the rule of the land was always HGs are FTE. Today when I mentioned that to someone, he said they are not and there is no where in the rules or forums that say they are. I looked myself to prove him wrong and came up with nothing.
So, did I float along these past years on some fluke that everyone who happened to be around me considered them FTE? Like I put up some shit with such as a monk killing every single HG all afternoon because he could engage quicker than me for some reason. But I didn't complain because I adamantly believed they were FTE. Did I do this for nothing?

If its a static spawn you can probably lay claim to it...but if your HG pops and you don't engage expect other players to treat it as FTE, especially if it starts to wander off.

Most nameds in outdoor zones that folks camp don't have singular static spawns (i.e. Quillmane). You could possibly lay claim to a single static QM location and just sit there though.

[Baler]

They Unlocked this thread?!

*raises bitter old man fist feebly shaking it*

[Cen]

Hill giants are no longer static pending update? :p

[TripSin]

What does "FTE" stand for?

Is there a page on the wiki that explains all the jargon used in the p99 forums?

https://wiki.project1999.com/Abbreviations_Glossary

[Baler]

No one else cares they unlocked this thread?

[Nirgon]

No one else cares they unlocked this thread?

Imagine farming hill giants like a beta when you could claim pixels with your powerful guild of Erudites instead

[Baler]

Imagine farming hill giants like a beta when you could claim pixels with your powerful guild of Erudites instead

DMO propaganda!
Don't let these men of Odus ruin Antonica too!

You all saw what happened to sea fury giants!
This is totally the same :rolleyes:
They're trying to suppress our ability to reach end game by killing our chances of farming hill giants!

[Dural_Levant]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Abbreviations_Glossary

Thanks^^ totally bookmarking this when I get home.

[Sabin76]

Today I learned what "proc" actually stood for...

[Snortles Chortles]

Today I learned what "proc" actually stood for...