/list

[Secrets]

Should apply to all named creature camps.

It's clear to me that P99'ers cannot exist in harmony like they did back in the day.

(alternatively, turn on pvp upon a list growing to more than 6 people)

[Argh]

Naw

[Modwolf]

Free ma root nets!

[Cecily]

I don't know if I ever made my own never going to happen suggestion, so here's mine:

Do Lineage II pvp rules. Names are blue at first
Attacking another player turns your name purple. Fighting back against purple flags name purple also.
Purple flags last 60 seconds and no penalty for killing. Purple.

PK: A PK occurs if a non-pvp flagged player is killed by another player. The killer's name turns red and remains so for an exponentially longer period of time, depending on their total number of PKs. Red players drop gear on death and anyone can attack them without flagging.

"Karma" point acquired from PKing are shed either through PvE or dying.

I loved this game. You could kill anyone if you really wanted to. Then you spent the next couple hours being hunted by everyone, either getting away with murder or being harshly punished for it. L2 had a beautiful mix of FFA PKing and consentual PvP, while ensuring the game didn't turn into a griefer theme park.

EQ PvP also fucking sucks so please feel free to not read that.

[Tenderizer]

gotta love that p99 community am i right. ;-)

[Genevensis]

L2 had a beautiful mix of FFA PKing and consentual PvP, while ensuring the game didn't turn into a griefer theme park.

Where were you when we griefed the whole server out of Dragon Valley with our perma red team and forced them to pay us rent to exp there?
Eventually the whole server rallied against us and booted us out. Best game ever haha.

[Kirrund]

I don't know if I ever made my own never going to happen suggestion, so here's mine:

Do Lineage II pvp rules. Names are blue at first
Attacking another player turns your name purple. Fighting back against purple flags name purple also.
Purple flags last 60 seconds and no penalty for killing. Purple.

PK: A PK occurs if a non-pvp flagged player is killed by another player. The killer's name turns red and remains so for an exponentially longer period of time, depending on their total number of PKs. Red players drop gear on death and anyone can attack them without flagging.

"Karma" point acquired from PKing are shed either through PvE or dying.

I loved this game. You could kill anyone if you really wanted to. Then you spent the next couple hours being hunted by everyone, either getting away with murder or being harshly punished for it. L2 had a beautiful mix of FFA PKing and consentual PvP, while ensuring the game didn't turn into a griefer theme park.

EQ PvP also fucking sucks so please feel free to not read that.

It also had entire zones you didn't go to because there were hundreds of RMT asian gold farmers strewn across a single zone; for those who don't understand, it would be as though you were in a zone the size of east commonlands but it was day 1 of green and hundreds of people were camping every known spawn point and you were the only person who wasn't just farming gold for an RMT operation. If you tried to contest anything, they would all zerg you down and kill you.

Even in Cruma tower (the equivalent of lower guk) you'd have a group and then suddenly the asian gold farmers would move in and kill everyone in a wing, set up their lower level farmers, and if you contested anything, the farm boss (who had high tier gear and was about 20 levels higher than you) would come in and kill you instead.

That game was ruined by korean grindfest and gold farmers, otherwise it was an okay game with some decent ideas.

[shuklak]

Remember when Jack ganked those pet toys in mines lol.

[Cecily]

Where were you when we griefed the whole server out of Dragon Valley with our perma red team and forced them to pay us rent to exp there?
Eventually the whole server rallied against us and booted us out. Best game ever haha.

Me? Lol. I was on Gustin with Eternal Avatar in Antharas' Lair, making sure no one (80-90% of server) got in without being trained, PKed, or otherwise griefed. We didn't let any other alliances into AL and forced them to level at Shillen's Gate, which was sooo much worse.

Then when we got bored we'd send out our two Phantom Rangers permareds with a group of healers and kill them all. This led to a huge battle where they managed to push down halfway into the lair and we just trained the shit out of them and sent them home. I got an eminence bow off one of their reds that night, which I used to 3k crit their casters with on my Abyss Walker. L2 was pure griefing lol. I miss it.

[Chocolope]

while ensuring the game didn't turn into a griefer theme park.


lol

[Jack N]

I did what?

[Cecily]

It also had entire zones you didn't go to because there were hundreds of RMT asian gold farmers strewn across a single zone; for those who don't understand, it would be as though you were in a zone the size of east commonlands but it was day 1 of green and hundreds of people were camping every known spawn point and you were the only person who wasn't just farming gold for an RMT operation. If you tried to contest anything, they would all zerg you down and kill you.

Even in Cruma tower (the equivalent of lower guk) you'd have a group and then suddenly the asian gold farmers would move in and kill everyone in a wing, set up their lower level farmers, and if you contested anything, the farm boss (who had high tier gear and was about 20 levels higher than you) would come in and kill you instead.

That game was ruined by korean grindfest and gold farmers, otherwise it was an okay game with some decent ideas.

I don't know about you, but I just saw the Chinese as content. I spent months fighting high level, active farm crews in tower of insomence. They got to the point where they wouldn't flag if I was around, so we had to drop angels on them to clear them out.

[Valeriya]

Naw

Sissy compete for your loot like a man

[Valeriya]

gotta love that p99 community am i right. ;-)

The ones who bitch and moan cause they cant get loot like normal people?

[loramin]

Should apply to all named creature camps.

It's clear to me that P99'ers cannot exist in harmony like they did back in the day.

Amen ... except that I don't completely about the harmony part.

People in systems act however the systems guide them to act. P99 has created (partly by choice, partly by forces out of their control, and partly by stuff that's sort of in-between, like the limited guide capacity) a system that is responsible for this behavior, just like the different system on live created that behavior.

P99 players could "act right" ... IF Rogean got way more specific and clear about the rules (and maybe forced people to see the rules page when they signed up for an EQEmu account), so no one could claim "I didn't know better", and then also got draconian about enforcing those rules.

I truly think that as soon as people start seeing their guildmates getting banned for being jerks, everyone would stop acting like jerks and behave decently. Or to put it another way:

https://i.imgur.com/TXhraeC.gif

But of course, while more draconian rules would work, they wouldn't be Classic EQ(tm). And given P99's limits as an all volunteer-project (and the desire to have good/quality GMs and not just lots of jerks on a power trip), such a system may not even be possible here ...

... which makes /list the best classic solution. And just as lists did exist for all camps on live, they belong on all camps here. We just need to get rid of this bit about them lasting more than 24 hours, because on live GMs definitely did not maintain lists that long (they went to sleep!)

[loramin]

*completely agree about

[Videri]

*completely agree about

I accidentally your post.

[loramin]

P.P.S. (Man I wish RnF had edit ...)

IF Rogean got way more specific and clear about the rules (and maybe forced people to see the rules page when they signed up for an EQEmu account), so no one could claim "I didn't know better", and then also got draconian about enforcing those rules.

Actually, just thinking about it, Live worked kind of because of the reverse. They let everyone know the rules clearly, but they weren't specific. Heck there wasn't even an official Play Nice Policy until Kunark.

Instead, players just had this vague sense that if they acted like jerks and someone petitioned them, the GMs might side with the other player, and I think that "fear of the unknown" kept a lot of people in line.

So I guess it's less about needing specific well-known definitions of "bad behavior", and more just about letting players know that their bad behavior will be punished. In other words, it's all about the fear :D

[Cecily]

Basically the server needs Uthgard

[Tilien]

Free ma root nets!

If only people knew the actual server camp rules there would probably be less of a monopoly on them (or a greater number of guild organization to monopolize them at least).

[Bardp1999]

Here is an idea - don't sit at your computer for literally days for an item

[kjs86z]

consider blue

[Cecily]

Do you really think people would sit at their computer for days just to get an item?

[Hyjalx]

Heres an idea... How about actually leaving the game alone and keeping it classic.

We have gone through how many changes on p99? How many have failed?

We always revert back to CLASSIC mechanics... because...guess what? We play this game for the CLASSIC experience, not for custom content.

2010 called Secrets, still nobody cares....

[Hyjalx]

You should be the last person criticizing the game or backing non-classic ideas. You been here from the start like many of us. This is a bullshit mechanic and you know it.

[baakss]

Heres an idea... How about actually leaving the game alone and keeping it classic.

We have gone through how many changes on p99? How many have failed?

We always revert back to CLASSIC mechanics... because...guess what? We play this game for the CLASSIC experience, not for custom content.

2010 called Secrets, still nobody cares....

A lot of classic mechanics "fail" when put in the hands of modern day players.

You remember Kunark with lvl 5 rogues running around with Ragebringers? Pretty stupid.

[Hyjalx]

Its Everquest. It's a community game. Its unfair. It was never meant to be a hand holding merry go round. Some items for melee have INT and junk stats. Should we change that too? Because it doesnt make sense?

And whats your point Baakss? Epics aren't exactly easy to get at the start of Kunark... GL getting one on your level 5 during that era.

I love WoW, but this is the last game that should be anything like it.

[baakss]

There were no epics at the start of Kunark. They got introduced like a couple months before Velious. It was a general example from blue.

My point is that some unclassic changes (such as nerfing epics to be 46+) were made because of how we've acted/played the game.

In the case of the Manastone/Jboots/Guise camp, the toxicity would be horrendous. List may seem bad, but it would be worse otherwise because of the lengths we'll go to get our way.

[Hyjalx]

Knee jerk reactions. Its as simple as that. No matter how badly we want to change the game to fit someones narrative or complaints, it cannot be done without ruining the concept entirely.

Classic and Custom are 2 totally different things.

[loramin]

In the case of the Manastone/Jboots/Guise camp, the toxicity would be horrendous. List may seem bad, but it would be worse otherwise because of the lengths we'll go to get our way.

This makes it sound like lists are some custom thing introduced to "make classic" less bad ... but they're not. Lists were 100% classic, and are not just some wacky custom mechanic Rogean dreamed up.

The specific /list command itself isn't classic, but it's just an automation of what happened on live (ie. what was enforced by paid human GMs/guides (http://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines)).

So please let's not frame things as "classic vs. lists". It's "impossible-to-recreate (because we don't have paid staff) live sytem vs. /list ... vs. something else far less classic".

[loramin]

P.S. I think the far more interesting case of "custom code" is stuff like AoE mob limits, as that sort of thing makes you realize that even "strict adherence to classic mechanics" is subjective.

[Hyjalx]

GMs never enforced rotations on camps Loramin....it just didnt happen. Our problem is too much staff involvement in intricate parts of the game.

Uthgaard knew how to handle the community. It's been downhill since.

[Hyjalx]

Now its frapsquest, lists, and rooted dragons...


How is that classic? One thing leads to another and it becomes a custom server like it currently is. Too much staff involvement = bad for community to regulate itself

[baakss]

This makes it sound like lists are some custom thing introduced to "make classic" less bad ... but they're not. Lists were 100% classic, and are not just some wacky custom mechanic Rogean dreamed up.

The specific /list command itself isn't classic, but it's just an automation of what happened on live (ie. what was enforced by paid human GMs/guides (http://wiki.project1999.com/Kunark_Era_Customer_Service_Guidelines)).

So please let's not frame things as "classic vs. lists". It's "impossible-to-recreate (because we don't have paid staff) live sytem vs. /list ... vs. something else far less classic".

The implementation of list here is not what happened on live.

There was certainly not a requirement that you leave a camp because a non-lore item dropped that you wanted. You could continue to accrue as many of them as you wanted, as long as you held the camp. A GM wasn't going to kick you out because everyone in your group had a Manastone and a 7th one dropped. You weren't obligated to hand it over to someone just hanging out there.

I maintained lists to join a group on live using pen and paper. "Sure, we'll add you to the list to join the group, you're 15th" or whatever. Same as people do now for Ancient Cyclops.

But a list to just be handed a non-lore item that drops from a camp I'm in? No way.

All this said, I still think that some automated implementation of loot-listing is needed to curb toxicity here.

[booter]

Uthgaard knew how to handle the community.

With biased rulings that eventually made him step down disgracefully?

[Valeriya]

Now its frapsquest, lists, and rooted dragons...


How is that classic? One thing leads to another and it becomes a custom server like it currently is. Too much staff involvement = bad for community to regulate itself

P99 is garabage now

[loramin]

GMs never enforced rotations on camps Loramin....it just didnt happen. Our problem is too much staff involvement in intricate parts of the game.


8.2.3 Contested Spawn Complaints

When a complaint is received indicating that a spawn or kill is contested, a disruption investigation should first be initiated according to the procedures of section 8.2.2 to determine if harassment or Zone/Area disruption is occurring. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, instruct the parties involved in the contested spawn situation to work out a compromise. Then leave the scene.

If another complaint is received involving the same spawn site, another disruption investigation should be initiated. After following those procedures and issuing warnings as necessary, if any of the parties involved were involved in the initial situation, establish a compromise for the parties to which the parties are required to abide. The compromise should be as described in section 8.2.3.1. Any party refusing to abide by the compromise established by the CS Representative should be issued a warning for disruption.

On PvP servers, where players can reach a solution to the contested spawn situation, the CS Representative does not need to require the players to share the spawn.

8.2.3.1 The compromise will require all parties to take turns killing the spawn(s). All parties involved in the contested spawn should be instructed to use /random 0 100 to choose a number. The CS Representative then uses /random 0 100. The individual with the closest number to the CS Representative’s number will be next in the rotation. The CS Representative then bases the rest of the rotation order on how close the other parties’ numbers were to theirs. The compromise established by a CS Representative must be objective and not require the CS Representative to choose one customer over another based on subjective criteria. The CS Representative is the arbiter in any disputes in establishing the compromise. 8.2.3.1

Again, the exact details of the mechanism have to be different here because we don't have paid GMs and "paid with free play time" Guides. And people can absolutely have legitimate quibbles with how faithfully or unfaithfully /list represents what live did. Personally I think the fact that lists can go on for days is a meaningful departure from live, and IMHO creates an unnecessary problem here.

But the simple fact of the matter is that, whatever your personal experience, Verant was telling every last one of their paid employees to settle things with lists.

[Genevensis]

Me? Lol. I was on Gustin with Eternal Avatar in Antharas' Lair, making sure no one (80-90% of server) got in without being trained, PKed, or otherwise griefed. We didn't let any other alliances into AL and forced them to level at Shillen's Gate, which was sooo much worse.

Then when we got bored we'd send out our two Phantom Rangers permareds with a group of healers and kill them all. This led to a huge battle where they managed to push down halfway into the lair and we just trained the shit out of them and sent them home. I got an eminence bow off one of their reds that night, which I used to 3k crit their casters with on my Abyss Walker. L2 was pure griefing lol. I miss it.

All Hail Beliar!

[Cecily]

All Hail Beliar!

Oh hi there. This is Jetta. If you're EA you'll appreciate this:

https://youtu.be/dB9Z7bwyrss

[Nirgon]

The blue playerbase, not the red one, is the reason had to spend his time making this btw. Otherwise, you Antonican MAGGOTS would have destroyed this fresh roll up with cooking the books on lists and handing off only when non guildies had given up and logged. Or lies about what dropped etc. I can only imagine.

[Cecily]

The blue playerbase, not the red one, is the reason had to spend his time making this btw. Otherwise, you Antonican MAGGOTS would have destroyed this fresh roll up with cooking the books on lists and handing off only when non guildies had given up and logged. Or lies about what dropped etc. I can only imagine.

You're absolutely right. This wouldn't happen on red. Could you imagine? A server with enough people to form a list.

[Teppler]

I don't like the idea of blaming the common people for common people behavior. I've been arguing that the system of rules is wack for a long time. The consistency isn't there..... Which allows for GMs and Guides to be flexible in situations but it also will create a lot of hurt feelings over the inevitable inconsistency. People are simply trying to compete to improve their character. No one wants to run around dying with a level 1 character forever. People derive fun from winning and improving. Is Super Mario fun if you never make it past the 1st level?

Things are very limited in classic with only so much to camp. People competing hard for them was going to be an inevitability.

[Secrets]

You can make programmed systems that police themselves in the spirit of classic that weren't possible or thought of back in the day.

It's like baseball's robo-umpire system that a lot of people push for; the technology is there and people want to replace humans because humans will get things wrong where a machine will not. I mean, if you watch baseball you'll see that we have the tech. The broadcasts often show pitch replays and constantly show where an umpire got a call wrong.

/list is the EverQuest version of Robo-Umpires. You don't want it because it'll stop you from being a scumbag making biased decisions, but it's needed to remove human error from the equation.

[loramin]

The blue playerbase, not the red one, is the reason had to spend his time making this btw.

God I hate agreeing with Red players, on anything. But you're not wrong:

8.2.3 Contested Spawn Complaints

When a complaint is received ...

On PvP servers, where players can reach a solution to the contested spawn situation, the CS Representative does not need to require the players to share the spawn.

/list is the EverQuest version of Robo-Umpires. You don't want it because it'll stop you from being a scumbag making biased decisions, but it's needed to remove human error from the equation.

Brilliant analogy! And just like with robot umps, many purists worry that "the devil is in the details" (eg. I don't think our "robot umps" are quite the equivalent of live ones ... if only because our's don't sleep). But once the details are hammered out and perfected, robot umps are clearly better for the game.

[Hyjalx]

Yes, I get it Secrets. It's the same argument that can used with Fraps. Has it really made Everquest better? No it hasn't.

The game is worse off with staff implemented CSR mechanics. And that's entirely the problem.

Anyone who ever played on live knows that the servers govern'd themselves. It made for the best player experiences. It's not to be a scumbag, but to play the game it was actually meant to be played.

ROBO umps aren't used in baseball for the same exact reason. IT CHANGES THE GAME.

[Hyjalx]

Just because a technology is introduced, doesn't mean it has to be used. We have turned a 1999 game into a 2020 carebear version. We even rooted the fucking dragons. Really?

All of these implementations are staff related. Nothing to do with improving the game. I can't thank Nilbog, Rogean, and other staff members enough for making all of this happen, as I wouldn't even be able to relive all this with yall, but we have lost the concept of what made this game what it was.


We claim we want to cut down on the CSR issues, and instead, implemented mechanics that are centralized AROUND CSR issues, it's changed the game. I mean, look no further then Blue. And non-classic mechanics are creeping into Teal and Green now.

Gimmie a break.

[Endonde]

I miss the old p99.

[Haynar]

Should apply to all named creature camps.

It's clear to me that P99'ers cannot exist in harmony like they did back in the day.

(alternatively, turn on pvp upon a list growing to more than 6 people)
Just give every full group their own instance of a zone. Not a full group? You get the crap non-instanced zone.

There. Everyone is happy.

[Erati]

Just give every full group their own instance of a zone. Not a full group? You get the crap non-instanced zone.

There. Everyone is happy.

Pick zones!!!!

[Nuggie]

There. Everyone is happy.

Some people just don't want to be happy.

[shuklak]

Some people just don't want to be happy.

Most probably don't know how.

[Jimjam]

Imagine if everyone complaining about /list being a suboptimal system actually volunteered time as CSR then maybe we would be able to have the optimally classic system...

[ScottBerta]

If you think it’s bad now..take away /list and you’ll find out what bad really is.

[shuklak]

If you think it’s bad now..take away /list and you’ll find out what bad really is.

Imagine... what it was like when we first played...?

I think the word you were looking for is remember.

[Secrets]

Imagine... what it was like when we first played...?

I think the word you were looking for is remember.

Oh, I do remember. 2009-2014 or so, when we had time limited items originally, was a shitshow on P99 without list.

The argument that 'people haven't changed' is just not based in reality and a result of wishful, rose-colored glasses thinking.

ROBO umps aren't used in baseball for the same exact reason. IT CHANGES THE GAME.
Maybe the game needs changing because the people have too, and the rules of the game have to be updated to match the people playing and enforcing the game.

[YendorLootmonkey]

The game is worse off with staff implemented CSR mechanics. And that's entirely the problem.

Yes, the game was so great prior to FTE shout messages, where it could be hours/days after you already distributed the loot when you find out from the GMs that rival_guild_monk001's javelin hit the mob 0.2 seconds before your arrow, so the kill belonged to them and the loot transferred.

/eyeroll

[Zekayy]

You can make programmed systems that police themselves in the spirit of classic that weren't possible or thought of back in the day.

It's like baseball's robo-umpire system that a lot of people push for; the technology is there and people want to replace humans because humans will get things wrong where a machine will not. I mean, if you watch baseball you'll see that we have the tech. The broadcasts often show pitch replays and constantly show where an umpire got a call wrong.

/list is the EverQuest version of Robo-Umpires. You don't want it because it'll stop you from being a scumbag making biased decisions, but it's needed to remove human error from the equation.

Except for the fact that Robots can malfunction or break and then they will get stuff wrong think about that....

[Secrets]

Except for the fact that Robots can malfunction or break and then they will get stuff wrong think about that....

Have you found instances where /list wasn't working as intended? If so, have you reported the bugs?

[Secrets]

Imagine if everyone complaining about /list being a suboptimal system actually volunteered time as CSR then maybe we would be able to have the optimally classic system...

Sorry, I don't trust anyone to actually enforce the rules as they're written at this point. Imagine the lawyerquest folk running the show. Yikes.

[Frostback]

This poor guy back in the day spent a whole day trying to get a FBR..... I got six in a row the other day..... Lists seem to have worked similar in 1999 as they do here on p1999.

I spent 20 hours on Memorial Day weekend 1999 praying to Marr that Najena would appear only to slay elemental after elemental. I got the robe…and then promptly quit playing the game for the majority of the summer. I was burned out.

One weekend I camped the Ancient Cyclops spawn for 24 straight hours. In that time, he appeared once, after 7 hours. It wasn’t my turn to loot. I waited 17 more hours and never saw him again in that time. Powerful as Nenelar is, soloing the Cyclops placeholder for most of that time, I left exhausted and empty-handed.

The next weekend I camped the Arch Ghoul Magi for 20 straight hours. In that time the Magi appeared 8 times, dropping the Shining Metallic Robe twice. I was number 6 on the original loot order. Two ahead of me got their robes while the others gave up early. I camped at the top of the order for 12 hours only seeing the Magi only twice. On both occasions he had only silversilk leggings…not the robe.
https://web.archive.org/web/20001010030338/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/030200_life_after_50.html

[Cecily]

If they outlaw lists then only outlaws will have systems designed to ensure the equitable distribution of valuable goods.