Monk or Ranger for soloing melee?

[VincentVolaju]

Which melee class do you think is the better solo leveling on Green and Teal?

[Swish]

Without gear? Go with a monk I think. Rangers aren't bad with a decent weapon at the very least but there's not much around at the moment unless you've already acquired a nice amount of plat ^^

[Ivory]

Ranger....100x ranger. Bows is the greatest power in all of Norrath. You can outsolo a monk EASILY till at least mid 30's. And even after that (since you can root rot most things).

[AgentEpilot]

Yea I know a heroic gnome who can take down giants with a bow...at level 7.

[VincentVolaju]

Yeah originally my first thought was "Def. a Monk". But then when I considered there is no Iksar regen, no Fungi, bandages only heal up to 50% until Kunark. There isn't very much gear in general for a Monk at this stage of the game. It started to seem like Monk soloing is probably pretty dang rough.

Not that Ranger is all that much better, but there is at least some basic gear that can make it much easier on you, even just Banded and Short Sword of Mornin for example, those alone would probably be a pretty big boost to both AC and DPS. Then take into consideration being able to Snare/Root + Bow down mobs, and it's starting to sound a bit better. Of course bowing down things will take arrows, and take longer to kill a mob, but the plus side is there is pretty much no downtime, yea?

I don't know, I've never played a Ranger passed like lvl 10 before, and the only Monk I've played was a twinked out Iksar on Blue with Fungi and all. So I just wanted to hear some opinions from some of you guys who probably have much more experience than I do at these classes, in all stages of the game.

But now I'm beginning to lean towards Ranger tbh.

[Kanuvan]

with trash gear - monk

with moderate twink - ranger

with epic twinks - tie

[Rooj]

At high levels I soloed soooo many things on my RNG on Blue, Root + Magic DoT + Fire DoT + Bow spam. You can sit in between ranged attacks so you kinda have infinite mana. Although with Green's meditate mechanics that'll be hard to do until 35+, plus Immolate is level 49 and the first magic DoT is 30. Do your best to cap STR and DEX, Wolf Form if outdoors. This is of course for farming and not for EXPing.

[Wallicker]

Ranger at 50: Monk at 50:
Def. 200. Def. 230
Dodge. 137. Dodge 200
Parry 185. Block. 200
Riposte 150. Riposte. 200
Offense. 210. Offense. 230
Dual Wld 210. Dual Wld. 252
Dbl atk. 200. Dbl atk 210
1HS. 200. H2H. 225


Spells + bowkiting. Mend + FD + combat BW + Flying kick
BiS weapons yaks. BiS weapons fists
8/24 ratio is .333. 14/30 ratio is .466

In classic it’s quite obvious the monk is a stronger soloer, sure a ranger can bow kite something to death outdoors but this can take a realllly long time if it’s not a blue which the monk could kill easier. I’d say outdoors tie indoors monk wins by a bit. This is all assuming OP is asking about leveling a monk or ranger on teal/green right now in similar gear. Really two yaks for the ranger is pushing it right now. Not to mention hybrid penalty for ranger.

[Aaramis]

^^ The Monk definately has more dps, and on paper, sure they're better.

The Ranger's benefits are in that little word you mentioned - "spells".
Outdoors they can harmony and single pull; they can snare (the death of many a soloer is a running mob); they can root; they can bow kite if need be; they can DoT, including lowering an enemy's AC; they can self-buff their AC and HP; they can self-DS (thorns); they can self-SoW; they can self-heal, and eventually self-regen; they can dispel enemy DSs (cancel magic); they can track; the list goes on.

All of those add up to make the gap VERY narrow indeed, if not tilted in the Ranger's favour.

The Monk is a dps machine. The Ranger is a swiss army knife, similar to the Bard (but with less utility, but more dps).

[Wallicker]

The monk has much better offensive and defensive skills, both can get mobs solo mobs outdoors it’s not hard... if you took the same lvl monk and ranger to a camp indoors the monk would be able to solo more. A bard can solo infinitely better than both that comparison is silly

[VincentVolaju]

Yea I'm talking strictly leveling, not farming items / money at 50 etc. I could see at 50 the big difference in skill caps, but are the skill caps that noticeable while leveling?

Also, I'd probably be soloing outside more than inside, considering most dungeons you'd need a group anyway...for the most part at least. Don't get me wrong, I'd like to group as well when possible, however, I can only play in 2-3 hour chunks so in most situations I'd be soloing.

[Jimjam]

Trueshot longbow is acquirable at a rather low level, and as ivory points out bows can be OP in a world without fungi (if you keep arrows stocked).

For traditional tank and spank levelling i'd probably give it to the monk though. Feign death adds so much leeway and monks have a high baseline of effectiveness. I remember my (admitedly iksar) monk on blue could solo xp mobs while naked on a corpse run in guk.

[Teflondon75]

I have nothing smart to add to this conversation at all lol. But I am sitting in Steamfont Mnts right now watching as a level 8 mage is soloing the Minotaur camp significantly easier, safer and faster than I can at level 12 Ranger with full banded and a BBC. Not gonna lie....really sucks to watch lol.

[Wallicker]

Monks start with dual wield at lvl 1 the skill caps are significantly in their favor during the entire leveling process in the end though do whatever is calling you and what you think will be more fun!

[VincentVolaju]

How well does the Monk fear work?

[Fireblade7]

Monk fear works ok... just not reliable. I mostly used it in giant fort in WW to help solo. I think like every 2nd or 3rd mob would be feared for awhile. That was maxed for my level at the time. Didn’t use it past then though. (Obvs this was blue)

[kotton05]

Lol as if a ranger comes close to a monk solo. Hands down monk but in this era both monk and rangers really suck....

[YendorLootmonkey]

Lol.. you will bowkite all of two mobs before you give up because it's too tedious, time-consuming, and cost-prohibitive. Whoever said no downtime was conveniently ignoring all the time you have to spend fletching arrows. If you want to run all around outdoors with a mob chasing you, turning around to fire an arrow, and then distancing yourself again... play a bard who can do similar with multiple mobs at a time.

Root-rotting? With your DoT's you get 20 levels after druids get them? Lol.

I've played nothing but a ranger for 20 years. Here's the real scoop... without fungi (Kunark), Earthcaller or even just Swarmcaller (both Kunark era), and twinked out with some good armor, you're going to have a tough time soloing at a rate that could even be considered slightly efficient. Maybe bow-kiting after you pick up a Tolan's bracer. Plus the hybrid xp penalty working against you well into Velious?

If you want to solo as a ranger, you're better off waiting until Velious after the xp penalty gets removed and you get Panic Animal... unless you're an absolute glutton for punishment.

Don't get me wrong... the ranger is a fun and versatile class... to play as part of a group. I would not want to level one up for the 3rd time trying to solo unless I were heavily twinked and/or had Panic Animal to look forward to at 22. Just being realistic.

[Wallicker]

Monk will significantly out level a ranger solo

[Nagoya]

I asked myself the same question and my answer was a Barbarian Warrior.

So I won't participate in your thread I feel my opinion might be dumb.

(however Ranger vs Monk? well when shit hits the fan Monk can FD and make no XP and try again, the ranger can snare, sow, bow, root, meditate, dot, dd, heal, etc. and eventually get the XP. i think monk is better when things work as planned, ranger is better for all the other times. my2¢)

[Velerin]

Think one of the most important parts of effective soloing is not dying and losing hours of progress. Monks are really good at that part too.

[Ivory]

-looks at the way the thread is going and slowly gets up out of her chair.....then climbs up on the table-

LISTEN HERE !!!! ARCHERY IS AMAZING!!!

Not only can you get a trueshot bow very very very early (you need micro-servos, so if someone is hunting the robot spiders....you can get them because no one else wants them as they are no drop, that is the hardest part.. AND WITH A BOW you can solo robot spiders at any level with a store bought bow, some arrows, and a sow for safety....you could do this at level 1, but I'd wait till 7ish).

ANYHOW, bows are amazing!! And rangers are the best synergy with a bow (with SK coming in 2nd, mostly since they can agro kite easily and use the pet as basically a long term dot....with the bow adding some damage on top of that).

They actually get their first magic dot (rangers) at level 9....flame lick shouldn't be underestimated. It is very welcome additional damage (and makes landing hits a bit easier, as it lowers AC of the mobs).

Look at it this way, with a bow you can shoot for about 22 every couple seconds.... THAT IS EQUAL TO A LEVEL 29 DRUIDS IMMOLATE! Mana free, always, your bow is a dot.

But hold on, let's number crunch a bit.

Let's say you hit for AVERAGE 15 a hit. And you are around that same druids level....30 (your ranger spell level).

25 a tick from bow (bows are faster than dot ticks by 2 or 3, so let's just say you are fighting something yellow ....instead of a blue which you will land most hits on)

+ Stinging swarm: 13 a tick

+ Flame lick: 3 a tick

-------------

that's 41 damage a tick .....

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE

Because rangers synergize so well with bows, they also get a DD (that is too low of damage to break root!!!! so root and nuke away safely!!)

Burst of fire at level 15 means you can add on another 15 damage a tick to throw in between bow shots. BUT you get an upgrade at level 22!! Making it 37 damage!!!!!

Suddenly you are sitting there doing 78 damage a tick.....non stop....all day long.

BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE!! Here's a secret, if you are soloing, instead of using burst of
fire between shots (15 damage for 15 mana).....go quad stuff and use your invoke lightning. Level 15 spell, but does 25 x 4 damage for 32 mana.....meaning you will be doing 100 damage per 32 mana.....and by the time one dies, the others will be substantially hurt.....meaning you can continue to bow kite the rest down and continue AEing to push your mana further.

And you are doing this at level 15....holy cow...you are quad kiting non stop, killing yellows easily.... yea, it's ridiculous.

BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE!!

So a fresh server right? You gonna be scrapped for cash....buyin arrows and nice equipment....staying on top of your game.

Well, a ranger (or rogue with a bow) can take down high targets if they have a bit of patience. My rogue has been killing giants from level 7 when I needed to get some money. You 'can' do this from a full life giant solo, but it's a pain. So finding some other low level help to team up and take them down for dem money money is a good idea. But a better idea is to get them to fight the guards in commons or karanas....they kill the guards but end up almost at the point where they start running.

BOOOM BOW BABOOZLE that means you are soloing giants within 10 minutes....and making piles of platinum!! Thanks to you being a ranger, and using a bow, and being awesome. While the monk feign deaths out of fear and goes "look guys....I can kill blues slightly faster with melee at level 50".

And that isn't even to mention ranger invisibility (getting around is kind of nice). Sure, if you are level 50 and high end gear and no longer are leveling.....the monk can kamakazi places and FD.... but there is a LOT of the game before getting level 50, and just being able to invis up and get to your group is a great luxury.

OH and rangers root? That is amazing for groups CC when you don't have an enchanter. A ranger can help manage agro very well (flame lick is insta-agro) and then go off-root something.

So, in summation, rangers is great.....but not as great as gnomes! Gnomes is even better than rangers.

BUT with bows....rangers is best.

Shadow archers also though, they are pretty neat.....the agro + pet + dots make them actually quite decent at the entire thing. Even against targets that are too high of level (since they can still pet + resist agro + bow). I dunno, having a low level pet hitting on stuff all the time is actually welcome dot damage.

So, in summation summation, archery is amazing. Bows are amazing. Embrace the ways of the bendy branch. The end. I win.

[Clinicus]

Look at it this way, with a bow you can shoot for about 22 every couple seconds.... THAT IS EQUAL TO A LEVEL 29 DRUIDS IMMOLATE! Mana free, always, your bow is a dot.

Mana free, but every single tick costs real coin. And instead of medding you have to fletch constantly.

[Frug]

Yea I know a heroic gnome who can take down giants with a bow...at level 7.

LOL, I was hoping someone other than me saw that insane Discord trolling!

[YendorLootmonkey]

Suddenly you are sitting there doing 78 damage a tick.....non stop....all day long.


I appreciate your enthusiasm for archery, but where you are getting unlimited arrows and mana?

[heyokah]

Ivory is a bow nerd. Trust your feelings padawan.

[Wallicker]

In the time it takes ivory to bow kite a giant monk has gained a full level, sold drops to merchant, and made himself lunch.

[Plaxiglass]

I made a self found all solo ranger on blue, currently lvl 23. Stopped playing him because of green launch. I can say that trueshot is a super powerful and easy quest to do at low lvls. Just buy a lot of cheap arrows from vendors.

[Mercius]

rangers kinda suck they feel like playing a rogue with really bad low level druid spells instead of backstab

monks better option hands down

[tinklepee]

Ranger is fun but fletching arrows constantly hurts my hand.

[Ivory]

I appreciate your enthusiasm for archery, but where you are getting unlimited arrows and mana?

Sit and med between shots...with the med button its superrrr annoying till 35 on green, but once you get 35, med up and pew pew pew.

Ranger spells largely are small mana costs, so they can really spam stuff.

Also....no archer in their right mind tries fletching their arrows for regular hunting. Early on if you REALLY need to pinch your pennies, then sure (like I did on my early ranger on green)....but once you got some extra plat, then you just buy all your bags filled.

I carry like 7 bags of 8 slots with arrows..... which is about 1120 arrows....

That can last a few hours easily. But knowing arrow merchant spots (they are all over) is important for archers. Commons, kith, several karanas places, akanon, kelethin, ogok, and so on and so on.

And I'm not an absolute purist....when EXPing , you wana take advantage of all you got....so now and then just go melee a blue, and go arrow kite while recovering HP. Melee is a little faster, but the thing is the massive downtime associated with throwing tons of HP at something as it bashes you around. That's why archery shines so much for soloers, because they can just keep going.....and if they gets ads, it doesn't matter, because they can kill it as long as they have arrows.

Though the AE kiting once you get 15 is the most efficient way to hunt. The extra damage per mana is reallyyyyyyy good. You are getting like 3 damage per mana, that is better ratio than anything else soloing anything else (unless it is a wizard or druid quad kiting, but they don't do that till later because they can't go all the way with their mana.....rangers don't need to rely 100% on their mana is what makes them shine there).

Monks don't have the option to go farm giants for plat ....you won't find them taking down the entrance giants at permafrost or doing seafuries much..... but rangers can. Sure, not as great as a necro plowing through them for cash, but at least rangers can hang out in the same room as the top tier soloers...... monks are much more limited.

Oh, and that's still not even mentioning tracking! Ranger tracking is GODLY for if you are doing many many many things. Ranger tracking alone is insane for awareness of a zone and knowing where your targets are (so later if you are doing kunark quests or getting various keys....rangers are godly...or even just walking through a zone and hitting your "what's up right now" button to snag a rare as you pass by).

[Ivory]

Ranger is fun but fletching arrows constantly hurts my hand.

Don't fletch your own arrows unless you really need to save money. So many merchants that sell a stack of arrows for 1 gold 8 silver. So 100 arrows for 9 gold.... early on that can be a lot, but once you are about level 10 and can go cheese some giants...money stops being such a problem.

Or go take down the mino hero and get a bracer and sell it for a couple hundred plats (again, you can do this really early with a couple other low levels and a sow if you have a bow).

A poor ranger is a ranger that doesn't use a bow :P

[solleks]

I love your archery fanaticism ivory

[Mercius]

idk how contrarian you would have to be to enjoy the most broken and useless systems in the game

there is nothing fun about kiting a mob for 40 minutes with sow while you attempt to shoot 9 damage arrows at it

[Ivory]

I love your archery fanaticism ivory

Archery and arrows is like dreams....anything is possible if you gottum!!!!! :D

[Fireblade7]

I’m a little confused here and getting 2 mixed messages.

Trueshot bow quest is easy. But it’s trivial at 225.
Don’t make arrows, just buy them from vendors. But then how do I get my fletching up? (Also I’m at like 56 and it’s taking forever and starting to get expensive)

[Widan]

Get it up to like 150 and farm for multiple combines

[Ivory]

I’m a little confused here and getting 2 mixed messages.

Trueshot bow quest is easy. But it’s trivial at 225.
Don’t make arrows, just buy them from vendors. But then how do I get my fletching up? (Also I’m at like 56 and it’s taking forever and starting to get expensive)

A) NEVER shoot your own arrows past the very basic ones unless you need special arrows for something special (like high ranged for staying out of range of a dragon or kiting a caster).

2) You don't gotta craft your own trueshot....getting fletching up JUST for a trueshot really isn't worth it. Just buy a trueshot or have a fletcher with high skill do the combine for you (they still need a few parts of their own, but if they are that high of a fletcher...then chances are they have extra parts or you can help them farm up some extras to do it).

[YendorLootmonkey]

Get it up to like 150 and farm for multiple combines

This. The only reason I can justify skilling up fletching past that is to go all the way to 200+ to make Trueshots reliably enough to convert to Rain Callers to sell.

[YendorLootmonkey]

...(archery is all the rage, etc)...

I get all that, and I've done it in a pinch to save my own ass, but why would anyone subject themselves to all that if they can just grab some friends/guildmates and group up?

I really don't want to be a naysayer because as a ranger I respect the bow, but it wasn't really *efficient* until EQ/AM3... maybe I got spoiled in Luclin on Live. Hopefully as an archery aficionado, you got to experience that -- if not, it would have blown your mind. :)

But i feel like you are over-hyping here... it takes a very patient glutton for punishment to exclusively solo the way you are describing. At least I personally feel like it would be.

[Ivory]

But i feel like you are over-hyping here... it takes a very patient glutton for punishment to exclusively solo the way you are describing. At least I personally feel like it would be.

Yea, it's more work for sure than just auto-attacking. You gotta keep moving.

But the exp is very very good (especially once you get 15 and start doing AE tactics). 100 damage for 30 mana is pretty nice.

[Spock2020]

I would compare the 2 along those lines if you get 1 mob at a time monk better at 2 mobs ranger and monk even more then 2 ranger much better because of range spells, snare, bows, root if 1 mob try to flee.There is also those who swear by iksar monk.In that case wait for kunark.

[ajdes]

Not sure if this matters to you, but one thing to keep in mind is that monk weight constraints will mean you cant loot very much. If this is your only char, its going to make it tough to save up for gear. Not that a monk really needs much I guess..

[Vormotus]

Yea I know a heroic gnome who can take down giants with a bow...at level 7.

I know that gnome personally! I even helped him get his runed bow in SK with screenshots and fun! :D

[Plaxiglass]

I’m a little confused here and getting 2 mixed messages.

Trueshot bow quest is easy. But it’s trivial at 225.
Don’t make arrows, just buy them from vendors. But then how do I get my fletching up? (Also I’m at like 56 and it’s taking forever and starting to get expensive)

What I did is I got fletchimg up to 150 and did the quest myself at lvl12. Once I had trueshot bow I soloed lvl12-23 easily.
Literally you could solo yellow con bandits with 5-6 shoots at lvl12. It was efficient because you didn’t have downtime to med up for mana.

You could just farm the plat yourself and buy the bow.

[Fireblade7]

Hey thanks for the replies! I’ll just keep working on my fletching and go do the quest in a few levels! Thanks!

[Teflondon75]

What I did is I got fletchimg up to 150 and did the quest myself at lvl12. Once I had trueshot bow I soloed lvl12-23 easily.
Literally you could solo yellow con bandits with 5-6 shoots at lvl12. It was efficient because you didn’t have downtime to med up for mana.

You could just farm the plat yourself and buy the bow.

Curious how much it cost you to skill up to 150? Did you use any particular guide like Almar's or anything? Thanks!

[Plaxiglass]

Hey thanks for the replies! I’ll just keep working on my fletching and go do the quest in a few levels! Thanks!

Just make sure that you farm a lot the components in case you have many fails. It took me three tries at fletching skill 150.

[Plaxiglass]

Curious how much it cost you to skill up to 150? Did you use any particular guide like Almar's or anything? Thanks!

I just followed wiki for most cost effective way. I made a human ranger so I had rabid pelts and bandit sashes to farm plat. Definitely one of
The easiest tradeskill to lvl up in the game.

Ivory did put a nice guide thread out there on which bows to fletch and use before Trueshot, and which one to get after it.

[Ivory]

Ivory did put a nice guide thread out there on which bows to fletch and use before Trueshot, and which one to get after it.

It doesn't apply much to classic world.

In classic you have some fletched bows (all non-magic) which can do better than the trueshot (150 range vs 100).....BUT they are a 250pp+ and take super high skill to make.

Then the runed oak bow (magic, 125 range) - so is better than the trueshot and has 21 damage instead of trueshots 20 with a little faster attack speed.

BUT the real pickles and potatoes is the raincaller. Magic with 200 range!!! Highest range bow, but a runed oak bow is better DPS (by just a little).

And then some bows for high end raiding in sky later....or when they add the hole.

But otherwise not too much in way of bows.

[Teflondon75]

I just followed wiki for most cost effective way. I made a human ranger so I had rabid pelts and bandit sashes to farm plat. Definitely one of
The easiest tradeskill to lvl up in the game.

Ivory did put a nice guide thread out there on which bows to fletch and use before Trueshot, and which one to get after it.

That's cool man, thanks. I was just hoping somebody had even the most rough of guesses. Being new I couldn't guess if I'll need 100 plat or 5 you know? lol. Just trying to make a goal here. I'll find out soon :D

[slowpoke68]

It doesn't apply much to classic world.

In classic you have some fletched bows (all non-magic) which can do better than the trueshot (150 range vs 100).....BUT they are a 250pp+ and take super high skill to make.

Then the runed oak bow (magic, 125 range) - so is better than the trueshot and has 21 damage instead of trueshots 20 with a little faster attack speed.

BUT the real pickles and potatoes is the raincaller. Magic with 200 range!!! Highest range bow, but a runed oak bow is better DPS (by just a little).

And then some bows for high end raiding in sky later....or when they add the hole.

But otherwise not too much in way of bows.


My ranger is 19 and I am using an Ash bow that I crafted myself with my 105 fletching skill. I haven't been in too much of a hurry on fletching because I figured there would be a damage cap like in melee weapons. Does this not apply to bows?

Thanks.

[Graahle]

Rolled a Ranger for fresh server, but not even sure what I should be doing. Only ever played trolls (years ago at that) so good race stuff is unknown to me. Also when should I even start fletching?

[Nirgon]

Barb shaman

[Spock2020]

Rolled a Ranger for fresh server, but not even sure what I should be doing. Only ever played trolls (years ago at that) so good race stuff is unknown to me. Also when should I even start fletching?

I try a half-elf ranger karana deity that start at surefall glade.Start killing decaying skeleton in north qeynos.Pickup the quest that give you a 6 slot box to fill with bone chips.Give faction with most qeynos faction. Did turn-in like 6 times. That will cancel most of the class penalty. By level 2 was able to buy fletching kit, make a small bow and 30 arrows. Did that til I ding level 3 then move to higher mobs.So far so good oh and u can do nestiff statue quest also.Thats where I am atm.

[Graahle]

I try a half-elf ranger karana deity that start at surefall glade.Start killing decaying skeleton in north qeynos.Pickup the quest that give you a 6 slot box to fill with bone chips.Give faction with most qeynos faction. Did turn-in like 6 times. That will cancel most of the class penalty. By level 2 was able to buy fletching kit, make a small bow and 30 arrows. Did that til I ding level 3 then move to higher mobs.So far so good oh and u can do nestiff statue quest also.Thats where I am atm.

Thanks for the little tips!

[Teflondon75]

Hey thanks for the replies! I’ll just keep working on my fletching and go do the quest in a few levels! Thanks!


Just to add in some costs(RNG...mine was likely bad) I went about and got myself 15 attempts worth of goods and then started in on fletching following the guides. I started at 340 plat and ended up with 30 left and 132 skill. So, not really that cheap honestly. Will likely take me another 100-150 to finish the last 18 points. Because I had spent a lot of time already and wanted to see something out of it today I made the mistake of praying to the tree gods with my 132 skill and failed all 15 attempts of making the bow.

Go into it with at least 400 plat I'd say to account for bad RNG on level up and do not try to make it sub 150(why 150? is that a break point of some sort?)

[Aaramis]

FWIW, I leveled fletching on blue from levels 35-40 while killing that solo HG on the hill in EK (6min respawn).
Fletch while medding. Rinse, repeat. HG coin funded it, and all the parts were available inzone.

If you can hold out until then, that's a perfect time to level it.

[Teflondon75]

Just finished my Trueshot bow. Hunted up another 300 plat turning in sashes and went to town. Ended up costing me 200 plat ish for the last 18 points, 500 plat total. I had another 12 attempts ready, took 4 to make the bow at 150 skill.

It seems to only do 22 damage an arrow though, not sure how somebody can kill a yellow with only 5-6 arrows doing 22 a pop max lol. Still a nice bow ;)

[Fireblade7]

I’m currently at 141. Every 40 combines starting at 135 costs 54pp but I sell back the arrows for 35-40pp. (122-135 was 46pp selling back for 30pp) How’d it cost you so much? I get 2-5 skill ups every 40 combines with a terrible dex and wis

Edit: waiting for 150 skill to go get 10 attempts in. :)

[slowpoke68]

Just finished my Trueshot bow. Hunted up another 300 plat turning in sashes and went to town. Ended up costing me 200 plat ish for the last 18 points, 500 plat total. I had another 12 attempts ready, took 4 to make the bow at 150 skill.

It seems to only do 22 damage an arrow though, not sure how somebody can kill a yellow with only 5-6 arrows doing 22 a pop max lol. Still a nice bow ;)

What level are you? At 21 my Ashwood Hemp bow hits for about 19. Each hit barely moves a blue mob's life bar. I don't know how people are saying you can mow down mobs either.

[Teflondon75]

I’m currently at 141. Every 40 combines starting at 135 costs 54pp but I sell back the arrows for 35-40pp. (122-135 was 46pp selling back for 30pp) How’d it cost you so much? I get 2-5 skill ups every 40 combines with a terrible dex and wis

Edit: waiting for 150 skill to go get 10 attempts in. :)

Simple, bad RNG. I did my combines in sets of 80. The last ones I made from 132-150 cost me right around 125plat(what arrow could you make for less? CLASS 5 Bone Point Arrow is the cheapest at around 31pp/stack) per 80 combines and I averaged 70ish plat return. My first set of 80 got me 4 skill ups. Second set got me 2 lol...in 80 combines. Third set was 3 skill ups for 141 skill and luckily the last set of 80 combines got me to 150 skill in the last 3 or 4.

You either got way lucky or I got way unlucky lol. Or a bit of both @shrugs@

Edit, maybe you have super high charisma for costs. Doubt it, but maybe. I have 75

[Teflondon75]

What level are you? At 21 my Ashwood Hemp bow hits for about 19. Each hit barely moves a blue mob's life bar. I don't know how people are saying you can mow down mobs either.

I'm 16. 22 is max hit with the Trueshot with the standard super cheap 1 damage arrows bought at a merchant. My guess? Wild exaggeration or observer error in how many shots are being used to make kills lol. It takes like 15-20 arrows to kill a low green for me currently. You could definitely kill high targets with root/snare and plinking but it would take ages to be honest.

I'd love to be shown the error in my thinking though lol would be awesome to rip it up and get some fast levels :)

[Widan]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QHkJpZ5vLP9-7tUXDtyCrFNufcWlRKoIFtMPRTv7uFA/edit#gid=0

At 150 skill you have a 25% chance to succeed in making the bow
At 175 skill it's about 50%

For the guy who combined at 132 skill you had about a 7.5% chance.

[Cerrwin]

About a week ago I farmed first three tries of Trueshot. Think I was fletching skill 45 and figured what the heck and tried once. Fail. Went searching for a master fletcher but no dice. Figured hey, I’ll just try the combine until I get it. Farmed clockworks in Steamfont for 28 micro servos and get all the other pieces. I prepare for disappointment but start the combine. Poof, on the first one, at fletching skill 56, got my Trueshot!

As far as damage, you’re capped at 22 with the Trueshot unless you use stronger arrows. Yes, it takes bags full of arrows to take down tough mobs but mix in dots and nukes and it is doable. Useful for tough situations or named mobs.

[Fireblade7]

Simple, bad RNG. I did my combines in sets of 80. The last ones I made from 132-150 cost me right around 125plat(what arrow could you make for less? CLASS 5 Bone Point Arrow is the cheapest at around 31pp/stack) per 80 combines and I averaged 70ish plat return. My first set of 80 got me 4 skill ups. Second set got me 2 lol...in 80 combines. Third set was 3 skill ups for 141 skill and luckily the last set of 80 combines got me to 150 skill in the last 3 or 4.

You either got way lucky or I got way unlucky lol. Or a bit of both @shrugs@

Edit, maybe you have super high charisma for costs. Doubt it, but maybe. I have 75

For the 135-162 skill up, I was combining the basic 5cp items (wooden, field point, large nock) with bone vane arrows. This came to 27pp a stack. Maybe I was lucky?

Also update, got to 153 fletching. Farmed for 10 tries at true shot. Got it on first combine. :)

My journey is over for now until I go for rain caller. Thank you all so much for the advice!

[Ivory]

I'm 16. 22 is max hit with the Trueshot with the standard super cheap 1 damage arrows bought at a merchant. My guess? Wild exaggeration or observer error in how many shots are being used to make kills lol. It takes like 15-20 arrows to kill a low green for me currently.

Are you using spells also? Dots + DD between shots along WITH arrows.

Soloing PURELY with bow is too slow.... that's why rogues and warriors don't really make the best bow damage classes (even though they get nice bows also, and have high skill caps).

You NEED your spells to fill in the rest and make it realistic for leveling.

You are 15+ already also, so you can even start quad kiting and using your AE spell along with archery to kill 4 mobs faster than others can. (you'd be hitting with 100 damage for 30 mana ....which is better damage to mana ratio than a shaman is killing with.... it may seem slow, like just little ticks of health....but after 30 minutes you will be killing a lot more than those next to you. Same with just single killing using dots + DD + bow).

[Teflondon75]

For the 135-162 skill up, I was combining the basic 5cp items (wooden, field point, large nock) with bone vane arrows. This came to 27pp a stack. Maybe I was lucky?

Also update, got to 153 fletching. Farmed for 10 tries at true shot. Got it on first combine. :)

My journey is over for now until I go for rain caller. Thank you all so much for the advice!

If you notice I was getting roughly half as many skill ups per 40 as you were and also less return through successful combines/reselling. With a 1 tap bow as cherry on top. You definitely got a bit lucky lol. Or I didn't heh. @shrugs@ Is no big deal. I only posted My findings because I would hate for some new person to come in and think well damn I'm gonna make this bow at level 8 with my 130 plat.

[Fireblade7]

If you notice I was getting roughly half as many skill ups per 40 as you were and also less return through successful combines/reselling. With a 1 tap bow as cherry on top. You definitely got a bit lucky lol. Or I didn't heh. @shrugs@ Is no big deal. I only posted My findings because I would hate for some new person to come in and think well damn I'm gonna make this bow at level 8 with my 130 plat.

I think total it was still something like 300-350pp. Yeah, I feel I got really lucky though on that combine though.

I think between both of us, 350-500pp though is a decent enough spread for 150+ fletching idea. That 141-153 still cost me a good portion of that though.

[Teflondon75]

Are you using spells also? Dots + DD between shots along WITH arrows.

Soloing PURELY with bow is too slow.... that's why rogues and warriors don't really make the best bow damage classes (even though they get nice bows also, and have high skill caps).

You NEED your spells to fill in the rest and make it realistic for leveling.

You are 15+ already also, so you can even start quad kiting and using your AE spell along with archery to kill 4 mobs faster than others can. (you'd be hitting with 100 damage for 30 mana ....which is better damage to mana ratio than a shaman is killing with.... it may seem slow, like just little ticks of health....but after 30 minutes you will be killing a lot more than those next to you. Same with just single killing using dots + DD + bow).

I was not at that time no, just testing and commentating on the bow's relative strength. I did after though and for sure it kills faster, my DoT does 2 damage every 6 seconds lol and while I do save on HP downtime you definitely go through mana fast as can be doing that. To kill a single yellow would likely take me my entire mana bar and still not likely finish the job. 2/6 seconds DoT, 22(MAX no misses) bow, 16 DD spell. Then add in multiple snares/roots...I'm doubtful this will get the job done in a single mana bar consistently. I'm not trying to argue with you lol. I'm honestly giving what is happening to me with my current gear etc. Somebody mentioned earlier killing yellows in 5-6 shots. Simply impossible, level 13 mobs have 275ish HP.

Quad kitting. I AM interested in this but can you give some more insight into how you do this and maybe even give an example of where/what you might start at 15? I tested on myself a bit and I can cast a total of 11 AoE spells. Even a single fizzle meant 10 only. Typically quad kitting involves snaring all the mobs And having SoW/JB's.

Are you doing this with no snares and just chugging along with a mooched SoW every 35 minutes? I ask cause adding snares to all 4 targets will take me down to 8 casts total for 200 damage(MAX). 200 damage will not even get close to killing zero exp mobs at this point let alone exp giving critters. They have at Least 250-275 HP atm for even the lowest exp green. It sounds like it would be terribly inconsistent what with adding in resists and occasional low damage casts. I am interested in what you have to say!

[Ivory]

To kill a single yellow would likely take me my entire mana bar and still not likely finish the job. 2/6 seconds DoT, 22(MAX no misses) bow, 16 DD spell. Then add in multiple snares/roots...I'm doubtful this will get the job done in a single mana bar consistently.

Well, first off....you are killing yellows solo....which most classes can't do, at all. Yellows also aren't really the best targets for "grinding exp", high blues and maybe a white con is plenty for that.

level 13 mobs have 275ish HP.

Quad kitting. I AM interested in this but can you give some more insight into how you do this and maybe even give an example of where/what you might start at 15? I tested on myself a bit and I can cast a total of 11 AoE spells. Even a single fizzle meant 10 only. Typically quad kitting involves snaring all the mobs And having SoW/JB's.

Yea, grab a sow from a nearby druid or shaman. Always someone around that you can get that from (especially in outdoor zones). Even better if it's a druid, and you can join up so they can AE also.

Well....10 AEs....is 250 damage....that is killing 4 mobs JUST WITH YOUR SPELLS.

But you won't be just taking them down with your spells. You will be adding on with your bow shots. When I would quad I would keep switching targets to try and even out damage a bit, but it's just an efficiency thing.

Are you doing this with no snares and just chugging along with a mooched SoW every 35 minutes?

You don't "need" sow, it just makes it a lot more mindless (and lets you get more room for spells). You can strafe run and kill stuff too (I was doing that to orcs a bunch earlier on before druids were high enough level).

But yea, mooch a sow :D Eventually you can just buy some SOW potions....and at level 30 you can sow yourself....

Don't bother snaring....unless you are killing single targets and just want to relax more. Sometimes I would root and dot and try to med between hand, especially if I didn't feel like running around a bunch (or didn't have sow).

You don't HAVE TO do the quadding. That is just the maximum way to EXP (since, again, your spells do 3 times the damage for the mana at that point. So one bar of mana using AEs is equal to 3 bars of mana doing single target DDs between shots. Even at much higher levels, using invoke lightning is a big boost.

And running out of mana to finish stuff isn't the biggest problem in the world, you can always just finish off mobs with your bow. Later one when you can beg some clarity from enchanters who are soloing nearby you can go a lot longer too.

200 damage will not even get close to killing zero exp mobs at this point

???? That is VERY close....that is killing them 4/5ths of the way..... another 50 HP is nothing, that is literally 3 shots with the bow....

Again, you are doing stuff no one else can .....wizards don't have the mana-pool to quad kite yet...druids either..... but as a ranger with a bow, you can (even if you need to polish them off with a few bow shots).

You are killing yellows....red....DEEP reds if you feel like it.....

You are exping faster than most other classes....and doing it safely..... you never need to worry about "will I win this fight" as long as you have arrows.

Don't even really need to worry about adds (yesterday I accidently pulled like 10 kobolds.....so I just ran around till they were all dead).

Archery is suuuppperrr strong. Especially in the hands of rangers and their spells working together with it all so well.

[Teflondon75]

Well, first off....you are killing yellows solo....which most classes can't do, at all. Yellows also aren't really the best targets for "grinding exp", high blues and maybe a white con is plenty for that.

No no haha. I was just making an example. I'm not killing yellows at all ever. That was somebody else(earlier in this thread)saying they kill yellows in just a few shots.



Yea, grab a sow from a nearby druid or shaman. Always someone around that you can get that from (especially in outdoor zones). Even better if it's a druid, and you can join up so they can AE also.

Well....10 AEs....is 250 damage....that is killing 4 mobs JUST WITH YOUR SPELLS.

But you won't be just taking them down with your spells. You will be adding on with your bow shots. When I would quad I would keep switching targets to try and even out damage a bit, but it's just an efficiency thing.

I appreciate your enthusiasm for getting SoWs consistently. I usually see for tips or not many people on as I like to play on off hours. 10 AoE's is 250 if not a single resist and not one of them is lower than max damage which we all know never happens lol. Everything you are saying is like...best case scenario.



You don't "need" sow, it just makes it a lot more mindless (and lets you get more room for spells). You can strafe run and kill stuff too (I was doing that to orcs a bunch earlier on before druids were high enough level).

But yea, mooch a sow :D Eventually you can just buy some SOW potions....and at level 30 you can sow yourself....

Don't bother snaring....unless you are killing single targets and just want to relax more. Sometimes I would root and dot and try to med between hand, especially if I didn't feel like running around a bunch (or didn't have sow).

You don't HAVE TO do the quadding. That is just the maximum way to EXP (since, again, your spells do 3 times the damage for the mana at that point. So one bar of mana using AEs is equal to 3 bars of mana doing single target DDs between shots. Even at much higher levels, using invoke lightning is a big boost.

And running out of mana to finish stuff isn't the biggest problem in the world, you can always just finish off mobs with your bow. Later one when you can beg some clarity from enchanters who are soloing nearby you can go a lot longer too.

No SoW and no snare just strafe run? Strafe run is great but are you saying just that gets you far enough ahead to both cast your AoE AND throw some bow shots? Damn, you must be strafing for half a minute to get that far ahead?



???? That is VERY close....that is killing them 4/5ths of the way..... another 50 HP is nothing, that is literally 3 shots with the bow....

Again, you are doing stuff no one else can .....wizards don't have the mana-pool to quad kite yet...druids either..... but as a ranger with a bow, you can (even if you need to polish them off with a few bow shots).

You are killing yellows....red....DEEP reds if you feel like it.....

You are exping faster than most other classes....and doing it safely..... you never need to worry about "will I win this fight" as long as you have arrows.

Don't even really need to worry about adds (yesterday I accidently pulled like 10 kobolds.....so I just ran around till they were all dead).

Archery is suuuppperrr strong. Especially in the hands of rangers and their spells working together with it all so well.


I cannot argue any of this lol. Your optimism and "Best Case Scenario" game is at a level I don't think I can climb lol. I know all of this is possible. But when you have "Just" enough mana you are bound to have many times with resists and misses and low bow shot and low spell damages, no? Not overly dangerous if all 4 are low/mid green but blues could be quite dangerous if you end up with 2-3 left and the point of not needing to HP regen has been lost. I'm guessing you just keep strafe running and slow as molasses turn around every 20 seconds and shoot 1-2 times hoping for hits/max damage a few ticks of mana back etc.

Where the heck can you even find a plethora of easily scooped up mobs that is not just taking from somebody else? <<Hint Hint, Pretty please tell me a place...I'll gladly go practice and report back that you were 100%....I want you to be lol. All the known spots have enough people this might only be possible occasionally and certainly not all day long. My intent is not actually to come after you lol. I 100% Really want to learn Ranger and get good at the class. I have never not once seen a ranger with no SoW/no snares round up piles of mobs and strafe run to AoE/bow plink them dead in a timely manner so I'm skeptical @shrugs@ lol.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Well, first off....you are killing yellows solo....which most classes can't do, at all. Yellows also aren't really the best targets for "grinding exp", high blues and maybe a white con is plenty for that.


Well....10 AEs....is 250 damage....that is killing 4 mobs JUST WITH YOUR SPELLS.

You're talking level 15+ since you're talking about Invoke Lightning.

A level 14 NPC example mob in West Karana (giving you plenty of room to kite) has 336+ HP:

https://wiki.project1999.com/A_brigand

I don't know what high blue/white con mobs you're talking about having 250 HP.

and at level 30 you can sow yourself.....

Uh, level 39 for rangers until much later...

You are killing yellows....red....DEEP reds if you feel like it.....

You are exping faster than most other classes....

You're not landing many spells for full damage on yellows, especially reds. What you are talking about is not fast exp by any definition of the word fast.

Again, I appreciate your fondness and love of archery, but as this other poster suspects, I feel like you are way over-exaggerating and going to cause a lot of young rangers to be disappointed.

[Wallicker]

Hi there, I am a bard, I can run speed buff myself at lvl 5 and kite reds endlessly without any downtime much faster than any ranger. Bow kiting is not going to allow you to speed level faster than most other classes and definitely not a monk. You sir are delusional.

[Frug]

Hi there, I am a bard, I can run speed buff myself at lvl 5 and kite reds endlessly without any downtime much faster than any ranger. Bow kiting is not going to allow you to speed level faster than most other classes and definitely not a monk. You sir are dilusional.

In theory. But until you get your second AOE dot, that shit is not fast, even with the maximum 4 mobs in tow.

[Wallicker]

In theory. But until you get your second AOE dot, that shit is not fast, even with the maximum 4 mobs in tow.

It’s not theory, for example I did lvl 8-18 on teal quadding on my bard Occisa and it took less than 8 hrs for those 10 lvls solo unassisted and unbuffed.... show me a ranger that can do that.

[Ivory]

It’s not theory, for example I did lvl 8-18 on teal quadding on my bard Occisa and it took less than 8 hrs for those 10 lvls solo unassisted and unbuffed.... show me a ranger that can do that.

BUT bards have an upper limit on what they can kill. Rangers don't.

Rangers also make AMAZING duo partners with pet classes, since the ranger can flame lick agro kite....and then let the mage or necro pet bash the bananas out of anything they are fighting (so at level 40 killing higher level things that a duo normally wouldn't be able to do....and definitely not as fast).

[Wallicker]

BUT bards have an upper limit on what they can kill. Rangers don't.

Rangers also make AMAZING duo partners with pet classes, since the ranger can flame lick agro kite....and then let the mage or necro pet bash the bananas out of anything they are fighting (so at level 40 killing higher level things that a duo normally wouldn't be able to do....and definitely not as fast).

Bard can aggro kite mana free... and fear and mez for casters also pump mana for said caster...and a ranger is single kiting a deep red(6+ levels) which would take forever and not being quadded. Rangers are not fast soloers nor powerful soloers, sure they can kill a high lvl non summoning mob 10+ levels over them but it’ll take a really long time and isn’t really a viable leveling strategy. I’m not really seeing your point. More over as a bard I can charm mana free a mob and sick it on the deep red while spamming snare on it too kill a red faster than a ranger dinking and dunking.

[Ivory]

You're not landing many spells for full damage on yellows, especially reds. What you are talking about is not fast exp by any definition of the word fast.

Yea, you wouldn't be trying to exp off of yellows / reds....

But what you have is a 3x mana to damage ratio ...that is VERY good in terms of solo efficiency....then add onto that a bow that is basically a strong targetted dot.....

That's all the bow is, a pretty good dot that doesn't need mana, and is instead just limited by your bag size ....that can still land at reduced efficiency on mobs regardless of level. The higher you get the higher the reduction, but it is still something...which means you don't have a limiter on what you can kill.

Is it efficient to EXP killing things 30 levels higher than you? Nope....but there are a lot of reasons why it's handy to have it as an option (item NPCs, quests, farming money).

[Ivory]

Rangers are not fast soloers nor powerful soloers,

Wrong! They are one of the fastest soloers. It drops off higher levels, but before 35 they are one of the finest.

The main issue is that bows don't really scale to higher levels before velious (or before planes , if you can get the sky bow). Then rangers also get double damage after level 50....and things like the skydarkener...and other really bananas bows.

Still, in a classic world, fighting classic stuff, the ranger can do some nice things with a bow even indoors. Being able to root-rot stuff makes them a stronger soloer than someone like an SK or a paladin in a dungeon.

[Wallicker]

Go bow kite Allizewsaur to death on teal/green on your lower lvl ranger and make a video unbuffed, unassisted, and regardless of whether I think rangers are good soloers I will be impressed by your sheer will and determination.

[Ivory]

Go bow kite Allizewsaur to death on teal/green on your lower lvl ranger and make a video unbuffed, unassisted, and regardless of whether I think rangers are good soloers I will be impressed by your sheer will and determination.

Oh no....you've given me a new target.... maybe not solo it, but I'm gonna take my level 10 with a bow to face the great beast! With one or two more people!

[Wallicker]

Enchanter, bard, magician, wizard, Druid, necro, shaman are all better soloers than a ranger imo. Ranger might be above Paladin warrior rogue and maybe shadowknight. So not even top 5 soloer and not the best hybrid soloer which is a bard.

[Wallicker]

Oh no....you've given me a new target.... maybe not solo it, but I'm gonna take my level 10 with a bow to face the great beast! With one or two more people!

Make sure to fraps it, you should do it solo. Corpse a few corpses with stacks of arrows lol

[YendorLootmonkey]

I'm on my 3rd time leveling a ranger... on Live, on Blue, and now Teal... if you're looking for fast and efficient soloing, a ranger isn't it. At least until we get Panic Animal in Velious. The archery, kill speed, and mana costs being talked about here are being overhyped and over-exaggerated.

Sorry, Ivory, but when you're talking about a ranger sowing themselves at level 30, you're not talking Classic.

[Ivory]

I'm on my 3rd time leveling a ranger... on Live, on Blue, and now Teal... if you're looking for fast and efficient soloing, a ranger isn't it. At least until we get Panic Animal in Velious. The archery, kill speed, and mana costs being talked about here are being overhyped and over-exaggerated.

Sorry, Ivory, but when you're talking about a ranger sowing themselves at level 30, you're not talking Classic.

Not overhyped! Bows is really strong.

But, yea, I was thinking later for the sow.....not a big deal though, just get jboots or grab sow potions. 100 plats get you 5 hours of sow.... you can make that in a few hill giants, so for an archer no big deal, you can take them down at any level within about 10 minutes in some areas.

I know I was STILL using invoke lighting a lot at level 54 on my ranger for AE kiting while also bowing. So I know how handy that spell is, and just super overlooked.

[Siege]

I would go Monk 10 times out of 10 because I prefer going to toe-to-toe with mobs to bow kiting and root rotting. Aside form swarm kiting, that has to be the most miserable way to play EverQuest. Plus you need to keep your weapon and defense skills maxed as a Ranger so you aren't a complete waste of a slot when you get into a group, so you'll be forced to go toe-to-toe with mobs even when you would be better off bow kiting/root rotting them. Never again. Yuck.

[Plaxiglass]

Just finished my Trueshot bow. Hunted up another 300 plat turning in sashes and went to town. Ended up costing me 200 plat ish for the last 18 points, 500 plat total. I had another 12 attempts ready, took 4 to make the bow at 150 skill.

It seems to only do 22 damage an arrow though, not sure how somebody can kill a yellow with only 5-6 arrows doing 22 a pop max lol. Still a nice bow ;)

I was the guy who mentioned the 5-6 on bandits. Look maybe it was a slight exaggeration on my part, but reality is not far from there. Humanoid mobs flee at a certain hp.

Also, doing 22 dmg for a melee at that lvl is awesome, and you don’t get hit and barely need to med after fights. You easily solo mobs that are over your lvl such as werewolves for quests. The best thing is you have track to find the mobs you want to fight.

[Keebz]

Lots of ranger highfalutin ranger debate going on. But how about monks? How are they solo in classic? Does combat bind wound still work here? Monks seem kind of rough, given the lack of gear, lack of Iksar and inability to loot anything.

[Teflondon75]

I was the guy who mentioned the 5-6 on bandits. Look maybe it was a slight exaggeration on my part, but reality is not far from there. Humanoid mobs flee at a certain hp.

Also, doing 22 dmg for a melee at that lvl is awesome, and you don’t get hit and barely need to med after fights. You easily solo mobs that are over your lvl such as werewolves for quests. The best thing is you have track to find the mobs you want to fight.


For sure, if you're hitting max/high DD's in between each shot it could be as low as 8-9. I think conservatively 10-12 on average would be better though with the wild misses and half/less damage hits I personally get on even low greens lol. When I saw you post 5-6 I though "Holy shite, it must be hitting for 40-50's" Is all good :) 100% agreed track is awesome!

[Teflondon75]

Lots of ranger highfalutin ranger debate going on. But how about monks? How are they solo in classic? Does combat bind wound still work here? Monks seem kind of rough, given the lack of gear, lack of Iksar and inability to loot anything.


On mangler TLP in classic everybody was hard for monks and how excellently Uber they were relative to other melees. This is "Real" classic though, maybe somebody can comment that actually knows a damn thing haha.

[Plaxiglass]

Also nobody mentioned the bow crits you get as a Ranger, when I get back to back bow crits on a red or yellow Con that does 48dmg, I get a lot of dopamine rush in my brain.

[Teflondon75]

Also nobody mentioned the bow crits you get as a Ranger, when I get back to back bow crits on a red or yellow Con that does 48dmg, I get a lot of dopamine rush in my brain.


When do you start getting bow crits? I've never once gotten a bow crit lol. 20+?

[Plaxiglass]

I got them right away in blue is it different in green??

[Teflondon75]

I got them right away in blue is it different in green??


Not sure @shrugs@ not a single crit in many hundreds of arrows launched though. Lots of misses lol.