Item Recharging on Green/Teal

[this user was banned]

Should it be removed?

I don't think many people knew about it back in the day and to me, it feels like a classic "exploit" that really doesn't need to be in place. Removing it might make things like alchemy potions be more in demand which I feel would make things a bit more classic, but that's just my opinion.

It feels a bit dirty to spend a few plat for any class to be able to quad kite skeletons down in under a minute using very cheaply rechargeable items. I'm a bit on the fence about it because, honestly, I'd want to exploit it as well. How does everyone else feel about this?

[Madbad]

I would laugh so hard if they did this

[Palemoon]

They removed item recharging on red. Made for a more classic feel. Should do it on green/teal too. As you said, recharging items for a few plat is cheesy.

[Tecmos Deception]

Only one I'd miss is the WC cap. Trying to find ports is for the birds.

recharging items for a few plat is cheesy.

A few plat on blue is a small fortune on green. You won't have every random going around recharging stuff. I mean, when I last played on blue a year ago, it was FAR from uncommon to have people in a high-level group who didn't even own a hat, who maybe had heard of it and knew what it was for but didn't want to pay to recharge it or didn't understand how to recharge it or whatever. Not too many people are going around recharging reapers or stocking 10 root nets, let alone wort pots or whatever. It'll be a LOT fewer on green.

[ajdes]

would make getting an OT hammer pretty painful for nice races

[Tecmos Deception]

It'll be painful enough with like 2% as many strings on green when kunark hits as blue has. Selling OT hammers will be a guild venture with price setting and shit unless strings drop a lot more than I expect they will be.

[this user was banned]

Well classic was notoriously painful, but did people regularly recharge things like puppet strings back then? It there a good reason to keep item recharging in place when it could detract from the classic experience?

They removed item recharging on red. Made for a more classic feel. Should do it on green/teal too. As you said, recharging items for a few plat is cheesy.

How exactly did it help make the game feel more classic?


Is there ever a good reason to keep an exploit in place simply because it was patched out post velious? I used to nuke mobs in mistmoore from the roof of the castle where there was no pathing. That exploit isn't here but technically should be.

[Ligma]

At this point in the game no one was recharging anything. Later on it was a well kept secret until it was nerfed mainly from people using rez staff to skip content in luclin, which is nerfed on p99.

A lot of people probably heard of recharging but didn't know how it worked.

[stewe]

would make getting an OT hammer pretty painful for nice races

It is suppose to be painful for good classes, oh no some ppl might actually have to grind faction and do the sarnak knight quest alot (if you dont know how to do this as a good race then you are a noob that likes EZ mode), the horror of having to play the game the way it was suppose to be played the ABSOLUTE horror.

[ajdes]

It is suppose to be painful for good classes, oh no some ppl might actually have to grind faction and do the sarnak knight quest alot (if you dont know how to do this as a good race then you are a noob that likes EZ mode), the horror of having to play the game the way it was suppose to be played the ABSOLUTE horror.

I didnt say anything about it being a good or bad thing

[Palemoon]

How exactly did it help make the game feel more classic?


Because people actually had to do the quests and camp the mobs to get powerful magic items??

And it allowed rare items to stay rare instead of endlessly cloning them at the cost of some plat.

Everyone wants a "fresh start" free from mudflation, then they fight to keep item duplication cheese in the game. /boggle

[Tecmos Deception]

Everyone wants a "fresh start" free from mudflation, then they fight to keep item duplication cheese in the game. /boggle

I mean, the faster timeline here will have a big effect on this. But in general I think that a lot of people who complained about mudflation on blue won't mind it when they're in on the ground floor of green/teal. It's really is as much a part of MMOs as it is an annoyance.

[Daldaen]

On blue Alligator skins were extremely common. I believe they classically fixed them to be a low drop rate here.

On blue Groi Guttblade was a static spawn that could be camped with no effort. I believe they classically fixed him to have a random spawn location and roam.

These are two variants from Blue which had Leatherfoot Caps and Rings of Shadows as probably the two most recharged items, which should make them much more difficult to obtain.

Recharging is a classic mechanic, knowledge of players is indeed making it far more prevalent however. Among this issues that “knowledge of players” causes for an unclassic experience, this isn’t in my top 3.

[GinnasP99]

How _do_ you turn in sarnak braids as a good race ? Asking for a friend.

[Tecmos Deception]

How _do_ you turn in sarnak braids as a good race ? Asking for a friend.

Couldn't you enlist the help of a cleric or chanter or necro, pacify him so you can stand close enough to open trade window without aggroing, then IVU before completing the turnin? I think this mimics being indifferent for the turnin just like sneaking to do a quest does.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Faction_Tricks

[loramin]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Faction_Tricks

Beat me to it :D

Personally, I think recharging could go either way. It IS an exploit by some definition, and in some respect is no different from Whirl 'till You Hurl. But it's also an "exploit" that was never fixed on live, and that some players absolutely did know about back then.

Really, what bugs me about recharging is just the inconsistency. Recharging items is FAR more game-breaking than the SG "glitch through" bug. Like recharging, that bug was never fixed on live, and at least on my server (Bristlebane) the SG glitch was FAR more well known.

On live only rich players with expensive rechargeable items even had any reason to know about recharging (most didn't know about mallets and caps). But EVERYONE ON THE SERVER who wanted to go to WW, DN, or TOV had to get through SG, and EVERYONE knew that the way to do it was to glitch through (if you weren't in a guild and had guildmates to tell you, you'd inevitably see someone else doing it or read about it online).

Ban recharging or don't, but at least be consistent and apply the same logic/rationale to other stuff, like the SG glitch. If P99 is truly going to get unclassic and "ban exploits", then define what an exploit is (however that makes sense to the devs) and stick to that definition.

It's not my place to tell the devs that recharging or the SG glitch is/isn't an exploit: it's their server, their call. But without a clear exploit definition, it all just feels incredibly subjective, because those two things seem like they should be in the category (or if anything recharging should be nerfed and SG not).

[this user was banned]

So why exactly did we keep item recharging in Green/Teal especially considering how we removed it from Red?

Why was it removed from Red anyway? PvP abuse?

If so, why does PvE abuse get a pass especially considering its impact as outlined in this thread?

There's a lot of stupid stuff you can do with clickies that would normally be balanced by the time it takes to acquire them, however item recharging removes that time and, in my opinion is against the spirit of the game and the spirit of classic in general. Yes, the cost of recharging can also be a limiting factor, but that can be offset by profits that can be generated through their usage.

Is this really just an executive decision made by the developers or is it a community decision?

I guess this really boils down to the question: Is the goal of this project to simply recreate the code of classic Everquest and let the game play itself out now that we have the foresight, or is the goal to recreate the experience of classic from many years ago?

[Palemoon]

Why was it removed from Red anyway? PvP abuse?


Was actually removed for PVE abuse, which is ironic. People were leveling fast recharging the red wood wands.

[this user was banned]

Was actually removed for PVE abuse, which is ironic. People were leveling fast recharging the red wood wands.

And people are doing this on Green now too.

I think it's time we had it removed from Green/Teal too.

[Cuktus]

Was actually removed for PVE abuse, which is ironic. People were leveling fast recharging the red wood wands.

Interesting... Very interesting.

[Nirgon]

And people are doing this on Green now too.

I think it's time we had it removed from Green/Teal too.

Should be in for a very, very limited amount of time and only way later in the timeline

[this user was banned]

Should be in for a very, very limited amount of time and only way later in the timeline

I believe this wasn't removed until after Velious so it is technically "classic" but it seems like it was considered an exploit that was later removed.
Oct 9, 2003 patch:
** Interface **

- Merchants now separate items with different charges in their list. For example, 9 dose and 10 dose potions will show up as separate items on the merchant's list. Items with the same amount of charges will be stacked. NOTE: This will remove the ability to "recharge" items by selling them to a vendor and buying them back.


Should we keep game breaking exploits in like these even though they are classic especially when it alters the classic experience? And why aren't we consistent across all servers?

[mcoy]

I thought I saw somewhere that recharging was kept to function as a plat-sink, but if that's the case they should dramatically increase the price(s) especially for the over-used items.

-Mcoy

[this user was banned]

I thought I saw somewhere that recharging was kept to function as a plat-sink, but if that's the case they should dramatically increase the price(s) especially for the over-used items.

-Mcoy

I believe at some point the developers acknowledged it was an exploit but knew about it for a while. It may have stuck around for a while because of how items were stored in the database and fixing it might have been a lot of work to do.

Here's an interesting discussion from around the time it was removed.
https://thesafehouse.org/forums/forum/everquest-wing/the-back-alley/4049-merchant-item-charge-nerf

[nenja]

I'm firmly in the camp and of the opinion that keeping all things as true to "classic" is, in many cases, rarely in the best interest of the game, these servers, and the population, both old and new.

A number of existing mechanics may have made sense or been briefly tolerated at the original time, but over an extended period on a time-locked server bring to light a number of issues ranging large aspects of the game and its community.

So to this end, I would agree with you, OP. I expect primary complaint will come from those who leverage certain items to make raid bosses "easier". However, as has been mentioned regarding knowledge of this exploit back in 2000, I don't remember my guild doing similar during the original timeline and yet we still accomplished as much, if not more, than what I've seen here with it available.

[this user was banned]

We have already made non classic changes to items to stop recharging them:
https://wiki.project1999.com/Ivandyr%27s_Hoop

In this p99 patch:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48145

Why cherry pick stuff like this on the Blue server then outright remove all recharging on Red?

If it's an argument that an item is just too powerful and game breaking to allow recharging then who gets to make that decision and how is it even made? There's plenty of other items that are just as bad that could use recharge removal too.

[Danth]

I believe this wasn't removed until after Velious so it is technically "classic" but it seems like it was considered an exploit that was later removed.
Oct 9, 2003 patch:
** Interface **

Should we keep game breaking exploits in like these even though they are classic especially when it alters the classic experience? And why aren't we consistent across all servers?

That's a very late date, not only post-classic but also beyond the entire Luclin and Planes of Power eras. Oct. 2003 was after Lost Dungeons of Norrath launched. I wouldn't care overmuch if recharging was taken out on the grounds of it being somewhat game breaking, but it clearly lasted a long time in-game, long after Verant became aware of it. Essentially the same thing has to happen here as happened in the original game--the server operators need to be convinced to take it out when they're basically okay with it for now.

Danth

[Nirgon]

I believe this wasn't removed until after Velious so it is technically "classic" but it seems like it was considered an exploit that was later removed.
Oct 9, 2003 patch:
** Interface **

- Merchants now separate items with different charges in their list. For example, 9 dose and 10 dose potions will show up as separate items on the merchant's list. Items with the same amount of charges will be stacked. NOTE: This will remove the ability to "recharge" items by selling them to a vendor and buying them back.


Should we keep game breaking exploits in like these even though they are classic especially when it alters the classic experience? And why aren't we consistent across all servers?

It wasn't DISCOVERED until later and then quickly fixed. Hello McFly! The knowledge of it also wasn't nearly this wide spread, like to the point of having mandatory raid requirements of having items to recharge.

[Ligma]

That's a very late date, not only post-classic but also beyond the entire Luclin and Planes of Power eras. Oct. 2003 was after Lost Dungeons of Norrath launched. I wouldn't care overmuch if recharging was taken out on the grounds of it being somewhat game breaking, but it clearly lasted a long time in-game, long after Verant became aware of it. Essentially the same thing has to happen here as happened in the original game--the server operators need to be convinced to take it out when they're basically okay with it for now.

They had nerfed recharging during luclin by making really high buyback prices. By that time the rez stick was being widely abused to set up CoTH in VT and ToV. And fungusbeast glands were being abused ala midnight mallets.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

So why exactly did we keep item recharging in Green/Teal especially considering how we removed it from Red?


Because the P99 devs, as ALWAYS, will cater to the "top-end, hardcore" players. Item recharging gives the hardest-core players a HUGE advantage in terms of raid preparation and the guild who can afford to be constantly recharging items has a huge leg up.

[nenja]

... The knowledge of it also wasn't nearly this wide spread, like to the point of having mandatory raid requirements of having items to recharge.

Exactly this. It creates a further divide between casual and hard-core players, not just without but also within a guild. A player's value to a guild shouldn't be judged partly or in large on their ability to get and maintain a handful of rechargable items.

[Nirgon]

So their value shouldn't be measured by their value - blame the meta instead tbh and the competitive playing field . Right now if you're a warrior that doesn't show up with a mallet, you are shit and hit the bricks pal. I wouldn't disagree as a guild leader competing against other super tryhards.

Back to the point, this was lesson common than boxxing and wasn't discovered until a much later era... then quickly fixed

[Ligma]

Personally I see rechargeables as an extra layer of abilities, like AA. Yeah, in a lot of situations it's really OP but so what?

Nerfing recharging won't even stop people from using mallets and root nets since they're so easy to get.

And still doesn't change that soulfire is stupidly powerful. Or donals BP for all of kunark.

[bum3]

Personally I see rechargeables as an extra layer of abilities, like AA. Yeah, in a lot of situations it's really OP but so what?

Nerfing recharging won't even stop people from using mallets and root nets since they're so easy to get.

And still doesn't change that soulfire is stupidly powerful. Or donals BP for all of kunark.

Aye some of those things need to be equip cast only or class required.

[Kirdan]

If recharging items via vendor is removed, then there's no excuse to keep soulfire usable by non-paladins. Both were removed from the game after the abuse became an issue.

[this user was banned]

Personally I see rechargeables as an extra layer of abilities, like AA. Yeah, in a lot of situations it's really OP but so what?


So what? Well it goes against what this project supposedly stands for:
"Our goal is to restore the magic and difficulty of the original Everquest game, including the mechanics, interface, and challenges of Original Content, Kunark, and Velious. Project 1999 is the most popular and most accurate reincarnation of Old School Everquest."

If people weren't using item recharging much in classic and it's an exploit then it probably should be removed like it has already been done on Red. Clickies break the goal of restoring the difficulty of the original Everquest game if their widespread abuse wasn't present in classic EQ.

[Nirgon]

one is a blatant exploit, the other was usable like guise from inventory

[Vizax_Xaziv]

If recharging items via vendor is removed, then there's no excuse to keep soulfire usable by non-paladins. Both were removed from the game after the abuse became an issue.

I'd love SoulFire to be equicast only. Give Pally players a little something extra to offer raids

[this user was banned]

So we are all ok with items like Red Wood Wands being abused to quad kite stuff in seconds at 5pp a recharge each? It just feels horribly wrong to leave things like this in place.

[Tecmos Deception]

So what? Well it goes against what this project supposedly stands for:
"Our goal is to restore the magic and difficulty of the original Everquest game, including the mechanics, interface, and challenges of Original Content, Kunark, and Velious. Project 1999 is the most popular and most accurate reincarnation of Old School Everquest."

If people weren't using item recharging much in classic and it's an exploit then it probably should be removed like it has already been done on Red. Clickies break the goal of restoring the difficulty of the original Everquest game if their widespread abuse wasn't present in classic EQ.

I read that quote as SUPPORTING ridiculously-powerful classic mechanics.

EQ's "difficulty" and "challenge" were there on live like they're here now. The broken mechanics were there too. The changes have been everything else. The internet, you, 3rd party resources, etc.

It's like when Marty goes back in time with the almanac from present day. Betting isn't easier in the 1950s than in the 1980s... it's just that he already knows what to bet on.

In the same way, P99 isn't easier in 2019 than live was in 1999... it's just that we already know what to do. The quote doesn't say they are trying to recreate the feel of the game, or create a totally different game that is as awe-inspiring for us today as EverQuest was for us in 1999. It says it is the most accurate reincarnation. Not the most similar experience. P99 isn't a "spiritual successor" that is going to do all the things the original devs wanted to do but didn't know how to pull off.

[jacob54311]

So we are all ok with items like Red Wood Wands being abused to quad kite stuff in seconds at 5pp a recharge each? It just feels horribly wrong to leave things like this in place.

Yeah. In my mind that kind of thing falls into the completely broken category of things that should be changed, even if they were "classic", like the boats not working properly.

[Firepuff]

Personally, I think the P1999 staff, should aim to recreate the "spirit" of the classic trilogy, rather than emulate its wonky implementation and design flaws.

That includes learning from the past mistakes Verant did.
One could even argue that "legacy items" that were made permanently unattainable (like manastones), shouldn't have been on green at all.

Keeping unbalanced mechanics and wonky exploits in the game on purpose, just for "Classic Sake", goes against the original spirit of the game imo.

It's not really up to me though. :P

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah. In my mind that kind of thing falls into the completely broken category of things that should be changed, even if they were "classic", like the boats not working properly.

Lol. Is it really THAT big of an issue?

If someone wants to burn 5 plat to do 200 damage to 4 blue cons, who cares? It'll cost an arm and a leg and be a pain in the ass recharging constantly to do it much beyond level 25. By the time someone has the plat to spare and wants to make an alt they could as easily hire a druid or necro or whatever to PL them, except that way the plat isn't sunk into a merchant to keep down the inflation plenty of people like to complain about and they didn't need to spend time killing Mina to pile up a dozen or more wands to make it remotely bearable to do.

[bum3]

In the same way, P99 isn't easier in 2019 than live was in 1999... it's just that we already know what to do.

Which makes it easier. And it's not just that we already know what to do.. it's that we know how to use unintended ways to cheese it. You have used this argument regularly. But I like to look at it this way... the naggy/vox fights already done a month in. Sure they know the fight and how to beat it the intended way and it would have made it easier. But it wasn't done the intended way. Because knowing how to cheese it made it trivial. The 9th and 10th guilds to down naggy/vox in classic knew how to do it from the previous guilds. But it still took them multiple attempts to get it down.

[Rooj]

I don't think being able to recharge items by repurchasing them was an intended game mechanic and definitely something I'd like to see removed. Buuuut I have a long list of things I'd liked to see removed (like the other major unintended feature, multiquesting) lol. I don't think item recharging or multiquesting is truly a part of the Classic feel. But I also believe in earning everything the proper way, so /shrug. Humanity obsesses over making things easier or more convenient.

[Tecmos Deception]

Which makes it easier. And it's not just that we already know what to do.. it's that we know how to use unintended ways to cheese it. You have used this argument regularly. But I like to look at it this way... the naggy/vox fights already done a month in. Sure they know the fight and how to beat it the intended way and it would have made it easier. But it wasn't done the intended way. Because knowing how to cheese it made it trivial. The 9th and 10th guilds to down naggy/vox in classic knew how to do it from the previous guilds. But it still took them multiple attempts to get it down.

You're basically asking for a different game entirely.

That's a patently absurd thing to do on an emulator specifically trying to recreate the old mechanics.

[this user was banned]

Lol. Is it really THAT big of an issue?

If someone wants to burn 5 plat to do 200 damage to 4 blue cons, who cares? It'll cost an arm and a leg and be a pain in the ass recharging constantly to do it much beyond level 25. By the time someone has the plat to spare and wants to make an alt they could as easily hire a druid or necro or whatever to PL them, except that way the plat isn't sunk into a merchant to keep down the inflation plenty of people like to complain about and they didn't need to spend time killing Mina to pile up a dozen or more wands to make it remotely bearable to do.

when the 4 blues you kill drop gems and items that sell for over 10p each and a vendor isn't far away then it's potentially profitable.

[Tecmos Deception]

when the 4 blues you kill drop gems and items that sell for over 10p each and a vendor isn't far away then it's potentially profitable.

Right.

So it's not that big of a deal.

You're spending 15pp to kill 4 niche level 20s that may break even or slightly profit you, on a server crowded with people who would also like to kill those mobs. Or you're spending 25pp to kill 4 level 30s that cover your costs with fine steel by a little, or are halflings that every necro and evil sham on the server would like to kill. Or whatever.

[this user was banned]

Right.

So it's not that big of a deal.

This trivializes leveling though and this is why it was removed on Red. Not like leveling that hard anyway, but it's detracting from the classic experience when people can just solo quad stuff instead of grouping. It's a similar argument for why we do not allow multi boxing.

[Tecmos Deception]

This trivializes leveling though and this is why it was removed on Red. Not like leveling that hard anyway, but it's detracting from the classic experience when people can just solo quad stuff instead of grouping. It's a similar argument for why we do not allow multi boxing.

It doesn't trivialize leveling until you've already leveled, and farmed. And even then, it only trivializes leveling for someone who also can find 4 mobs that drop at least bronze every kill around level 20, or fine steel or better every kill by 30. And even THEN, it still is only possible if nobody else is competing for the 4 mobs you need.

That "trivializes leveling" about as much as a ZEM in befallen does. Which is not at all, because it only works with a bunch of provisos and only for a minority of players.


AKA like I said, it's basically no different than paying for power level except it isn't even a plat sink.

[this user was banned]

It doesn't trivialize leveling until you've already leveled, and farmed. And even then, it only trivializes leveling for someone who also can find 4 mobs that drop at least bronze every kill around level 20, or fine steel or better every kill by 30. And even THEN, it still is only possible if nobody else is competing for the 4 mobs you need.

That "trivializes leveling" about as much as a ZEM in befallen does. Which is not at all, because it only works with a bunch of provisos and only for a minority of players.


AKA like I said, it's basically no different than paying for power level except it isn't even a plat sink.

How about specs? scythes + gems probably cover the cost if not turn a profit, rarely camped in OOT, vendor not far away. I've seen a ranger clean shit up and level off them into the high 40's with zero effort required. I suppose we can just leave it in place because it doesn't trivialize end game content like the hoops do. but that's a different discussion.

This almost feels like a gun control debate.

[Argh]

Seems like killing level 40 mobs with Red Wood Wands would take more effort than killing them normally would.

[this user was banned]

Seems like killing level 40 mobs with Red Wood Wands would take more effort than killing them normally would.

5 or so wands all instant cast 76 dmg 4 target aoe nuke with 5 charges = 4 dead spectres in about 1 min.

30p to recharge them. specs drop 10p scythes fairly often + gems and words so I imagine you'd break even if not profit depending on gem drops. 6min respawn and you spent zero mana too.

[Argh]

How is swapping in and out 5 wands and running to a vendor that you can recharge on after every kill while somehow keeping your camp easier than just root rotting mobs while mostly afk?

[Yoite]

5 or so wands all instant cast 76 dmg 4 target aoe nuke with 5 charges = 4 dead spectres in about 1 min.

30p to recharge them. specs drop 10p scythes fairly often + gems and words so I imagine you'd break even if not profit depending on gem drops. 6min respawn and you spent zero mana too.

ya i seen that ranger in oot doing that when i went to check the gargs on the undead island. i was wondering wtf was going on, how was a ranger was quad kiting instant nuking down the specs in seconds.

being creative i guess, idk i'll leave the discussion on if that type of stuff should be left in to yall but it certainly made me raise an eyebrow.

i dont get the power gaming in this old ass game, but people probably dont always understand my enjoyments from the game either

[Yoite]

How is swapping in and out 5 wands and running to a vendor that you can recharge on after every kill while somehow keeping your camp easier than just root rotting mobs while mostly afk?

dude was lvl 44 when i 1st seen him and when i went to check it again day or so later he was 48. so seems like it worked well.

[this user was banned]

How is swapping in and out 5 wands and running to a vendor that you can recharge on after every kill while somehow keeping your camp easier than just root rotting mobs while mostly afk?

They are Any slot so you can just leave them in bags slots, make hotkey and spam 1,2,3,4,5. No swapping is needed.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Red_Wood_Wand

quadding 4 for zero mana is clearly more efficient and faster than root rotting.

[Glasken]

Still waiting for my classic necro pet delay mods from wielding weapons.

Selectively classic.

[this user was banned]

Still waiting for my classic necro pet delay mods from wielding weapons.

Selectively classic.

Me too :(

[zodium]

recharging is good and classic

[Palemoon]

AKA like I said, it's basically no different than paying for power level except it isn't even a plat sink.

Oh yes it is. Paying someone else to PL you = group/player interdependence and interaction.

Using red wands to insta kill mobs at a profit each cycle solo on your warrior, is counter to group/player interdependence.


Many more examples. Shaman soloing with rechargeable puppet strings instead of inviting a enchanter comes to mind. Skipping grouping in over-there to hunt braids for faction and instead just using rechargeable puppet strings to get your hammer, etc.

Charges with POWERFUL effects were added to put a limit on that item's power. Recharging at vendors throws that limit out the window and disrupts game balance.

Blue is too far gone (which is why everyone has left it for green/teal). But there is no reason to make the same mudflation mistake on green/teal.

[Tecmos Deception]

Oh yes it is. Paying someone else to PL you = group/player interdependence and interaction.

Using red wands to insta kill mobs at a profit each cycle solo on your warrior, is counter to group/player interdependence.


Many more examples. Shaman soloing with rechargeable puppet strings instead of inviting a enchanter comes to mind. Skipping grouping in over-there to hunt braids for faction and instead just using rechargeable puppet strings to get your hammer, etc.

Charges with POWERFUL effects were added to put a limit on that item's power. Recharging at vendors throws that limit out the window and disrupts game balance.

Blue is too far gone (which is why everyone has left it for green/teal). But there is no reason to make the same mudflation mistake on green/teal.

Doesn't matter. Shit's classic.

[Palemoon]

Doesn't matter. Shit's classic.


Tell that to Ivander hoop dreams.

[Tecmos Deception]

Tell that to Ivander hoop dreams.

I think you're denying the antecedent.

That an unclassic change has happened before doesn't mean an unclassic change should happen now.

[this user was banned]

I think you're denying the antecedent.

That an unclassic change has happened before doesn't mean an unclassic change should happen now.

Classic for classic sake is one thing but when, in the attempt to keep things pure, we end up potentially causing havoc and creating a non-classic environment, how do we resolve this dissonance?

Who is the arbiter for these decisions?

Who decided Red should have no item recharging at all and Green/Teal should?

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Why argue w Tecmos? The guy will callously defend anything representing his personal interess.

[this user was banned]

Why argue w Tecmos? The guy will callously defend anything representing his personal interess.

I'm trying to have a discussion. How would they be biased in this discussion considering all of have equal access to item recharging.

[Tecmos Deception]

Classic for classic sake is one thing but when, in the attempt to keep things pure, we end up potentially causing havoc and creating a non-classic environment, how do we resolve this dissonance?

Who is the arbiter for these decisions?

Who decided Red should have no item recharging at all and Green/Teal should?

nilbog is.

See my signature.


I guess Rogean with red though. I think he was the guy behind that. I'm not sure.

[Razdeline]

I think the experience would be better without recharging stuff unless it’s a quest recharge. I also think there’s a big difference between ‘keeping things classic’ and ‘keeping things in the spirit of classic’. Sometimes the ‘keeping things classic’ definition is exploited in the current era where people were largely ignorant of current knowledge back in the day. As someone that played classic blue, you see this effect again with green/teal. Back in blue classic there was still some ignorance and mystery- now that feeling is completely destroyed. The cat was half out of the bag in blue classic, now it’s completely out and dead on the floor on green/teal.

Item recharging is a way of life for people, and a staple for raid guilds. In classic not many people used this. Current rechargeable items would become more valuable without recharging which is a good thing, right?

[this user was banned]

I guess Rogean with red though. I think he was the guy behind that. I'm not sure.

If they are each in charge of their individual servers then I can see why there would be different decisions made.

It might be nice if we had some sort of community decision making here, but that's assuming everyone can be mature about it, which, from seeing some forum posts here, that might be asking a lot.

In the end, it's their servers running their code and we pay nothing for it so I really can't complain. I really do appreciate what they have done so far despite some decisions that I don't quite agree with.

[douglas1999]

I absolutely think they should remove it. The devs have stated and demonstrated they are willing to make changes that are classic "in spirit" (the dynamic lighting system on green for instance) to make the overall experience feel more like 1999 even if it's not technically classic. I played from launch in march 1999 until right before planes of power came out and literally never heard of item recharging until I joined a raiding guild on P99 like 15 years later. The good reasons to nerf it far, far outweigh the reasons to leave it in imo.

[Arogarn]

Removing recharging seems like it'd offer more than it cripples. You take food out of the mouth of powergamers that harness these mechanics, especially those that have already invested time to obtain these things with this purpose, but outside of the WC port caps and puppet strings, you don't lose very much.

Maybe the biggest implication for raid targets is the midnight mallet aggro pull guaranteed recharge for 700p, but that's like 5 Ruby turn ins, anyway.

Outside of crippling the powergamers toolkit, the effect removing recharging will have will only be good. It'll stimulate the burgeoning economy for the countless porting druids and alchemist shamans here. And really, the fact that there's precedent on red really means there's no excuse to leave it in besides pandering.

[Castle2.0]

With recharging in, these items aren't permacamped by the powergamers.

If recharging is removed, they will simply be permacamped by powergamers. Us casuals won't have a chance.

[this user was banned]

With recharging in, these items aren't permacamped by the powergamers.

If recharging is removed, they will simply be permacamped by powergamers. Us casuals won't have a chance.

This is all speculation. Being able to recharge items like the wands is what makes some of them viable. Otherwise if you have to camp for hours to get a few more, you otherwise would have been more productive actually working on what you were intending to do with them such as group up for the xp/money/loot which is a major argument for removing recharging: It can lead to a healthier, more classic environment.

[Castle2.0]

Sure, some items that aren't that important like wands will become irrelevant and no one will camp them. DA totems, and other important clickies to raiders will be permacamped.

Do we really want to remove more content from the game, and cause the content that is left to be permacamped by powergamers? From what we've seen so far, this is the last thing Green/Teal needs.

[this user was banned]

Or they will be more in demand which means more opportunity for casual/low level players to camp low level stuff for money. It will also make Alchemy more in demand too.

[Palemoon]

Yeah the damage recharging does to Alchemy, and Tinkering for that matter, is reason enough.

Threats by powergamers to "perma camp" items does not move me. Its the powergamers that will be afraid of OTHER powergamers perma camping the items and making these items actually *gasp* rare and bestowing rare advantages to "some" power gamers, instead of ALL of them like now with EverClone.

[Tecmos Deception]

Why argue w Tecmos? The guy will callously defend anything representing his personal interess.

Lol.

I'm not playing a chanter on green and never intend to. Noman is in the process to drowning himself down to level 50 on blue so that I can test charm on there at 50 with classic playstyle and UI and will never be used for anything but fucking around (quite likely I'll delevel him to 12 so I can make videos of the early stages of charming that I didn't do the first time around).

I've never owned any of the really powerful clickies (strings, bladestopper, etc), and I bet that in 6 years of playing chanters a shitload on blue and red I only ever used the a few wands of allure, half a dozen reapers, several root nets, a handful of assorted shaman pots (disease and poison cure, greater rejuv, a few worts), and a bunch of WC caps. But the prices on those things wouldn't have stopped me from using them just as often without recharging as a mechanic anyway.


Just admit that you have no good argument of your own, or counters to my points. You look like an idiot trying to save face with a bias accusation when it just blows right up in said face.