The pampered experience group (deferential players and forward GMs)

[ELance]

It has been my observation on Project '99 that, unlike classic, one group will often dominate uncontested a very large number of spawns relative to the number of people in the zone seeking something to do. It is my assertion that this is brought about by forward GMs on Project '99, who act more eagerly than they did in classic, and deferential players, who unknowing of the rules voluntarily restrict themselves from what in classic would have been theirs, out of fear of punishment or simply the involvement of GMs, which often happens immediately when someone petitions and is not generally a positive experience for anyone. I have seen a few situations like this, and here is how it usually goes.

One or two players in a group are short-tempered, irrational or what have you. They see someone not in the group take something they feel is theirs, and they bristle up. Sometimes they will say something in OOC in an effeminate way, such as "Please don't take our spawns. Thanks." When their vain aggression is ignored, by people who like to play without a headache, mock courtesy quickly and predictably turns to petitions and reports. Here is where I think things are handled improperly and have a negative effect upon Project '99.

But first, some background. In classic, we know that GMs generally only responded to repeated kill stealing and deliberate training, not minor disputes over camps. Usenet is rife with anecdotal evidence that they seldom responded at all, and the likelihood of their response was proportionate to the number of petitions they received with regard to it. I was once told by someone on here that times have changed, signifying I suppose that players today are wilder and more unruly than they were, but I think not. As I assert most here are deferential, it is my conviction, and truly beyond dispute, that this server is placid compared to classic. But let me provide two examples, not to show the state of camping disputes in classic (because, as I say, these were generally left to players), but to show the vast difference in incidents in classic and now.

"Example: I was after a Chittin Shell Shield to increase my AC and just
for the cool looks (it matches my outfit), so i went down to Guk and started
camping for one. At level 25. the mob who drops it was blue to me so I was
getting exp and i had a chance at a cool item to loot. All of a sudden, a
mid 30s KSer (scumbag by the name of Cendar Fireheart) walks up and starts
attacking the mob i was after. I asked what he was doing and he says
"Killing, and you?".
After i explained to him that i was there first and he should wait his
turn and he said "There is no name on it.. whoever gets it, gets it" I
petitioned and was basically told too bad. " 9/13/99

"Hah, Rivan and Trevor on The Rathe CONSTANTLY trained DVinn, King Crush,
and their band of orcs through the newbies, and steal kills constantly as
well. On purpose.
Everybody in the damn zone (and Crushbone is always FULL) /petition'd and
/feedback'd them, and last I checked they're both still in the game. As
far as I can tell, GM's only ban for exploits, nothing else. AFAIK they
didn't even get a warning." 4/5/99


It is obvious that GMs on Project '99 are not like the ones in classic. Whether that is good or bad is for another thread (and maybe not these message boards), but it does bear on this in one way. GMs here do act on minor camping disputes, things that were resolved before by players. That is to say, if one person out of twelve petitions, I have seen no reason to believe a GM will not intervene and very quickly. I think very few good persons wish to involve GMs in disputes. It is irrational. In classic Everquest, presuming a GM did respond to a camping dispute, the guidebook told him simply to tell the players to work it out themselves. And then he left. In other words, the irrational players were reminded to be reasonable. It is nice Project '99 says in the rules players should work things out themselves, but it is important to understand that one or two people do not represent everyone there. Working things out means sharing or moving on, generally. I was in a group the other day, and one person ran through it pulling for another, and someone in one said, "Don't do that again or I'll report you". The words of a child? No--they are the words of someone with power. The GM came immediately. It is my assertion in this thread that this is bad.

I will cut this post short with my proposed solution. Supposition: camping dispute, a few players become irrational, they petition because mobs they feel are theirs, in a crowded zone, are being taken. Solution: GM receives the complaint and monitors the situation lightly. Maybe he troubles himself to remind them they should work things out themselves (better handled in a tell to the petitioner than the apperance of a GM in the middle of a group, which alarms people). GM only intervenes if the situation escalates to intentional trains or repeated killstealing.

Project '99 has been around a while, and so there must have been some objection to this solution, which it seems to me is most reasonable. I simply close by reminding people this is a massively multiplayer game. Players such as myself put up with rampant spoiler site usage, toilet humour and juvenile lingo, others need to put up with those who are not deferential. Otherwise it will not be a massively multiplayer game in the way classic Everquest was. Here are some opinions of players from '99. Do you think these people play on Project '99? I would wager not.

"You guys, get off it. it is Sony's responibility to make sure bugs are being
handled correctly, and that servers are running smooth. the online GM's are
there to ensure FAIR gameplay (as in to cheating ie finding safe zones etc.
and to get peoples stuck bodies out from a wall...)
They are there NOT to run around listening to whiners. about he sent me a
train. (boo hoo)

If they are pissing you off, then be smart, do something back to them. bring
trains to him, or if you are too wimpy, then go elsewhere and hunt.

The only time ithink a GM should intervene is if the rude player is
following you around.... thats all..." 4/7/99

"Clearly, you dont understand the concept of the GMs on Everquest. First of
all.. I paid money to play this online rpg, which is a rareity. I play MUDs
and they are free, and I might actually fear (a teensy bit) the IMMs doing
somehting bad to me if I was being "unethical". But, since I paid cashmoney to
play EQ, I don't fear that at all.. they have to have a really good reason in
order to talk to me (or even think about booting me from the game.)

GMs are mostly there to cover up EQs bugs. If somehting bad happens, they will
fix it. If someone finds a bug, they report it to the GM and it gets fixed. If
someone is exploiting a bug, they will take care of that (alot faster than
anything else actually..hehe.)

HOWEVER, they don't have time nor the brainpower to listen to all you ---
--- ----- about me utilizing the games features at its fullest. I am not 14,
I am in fact alot more mature than you think. If you don't like they way I
play, get out of my zone. If you feel like getting revenge somehow.. declare
against my guild when I make one and try to kill me. "Telling on me" is not
the way to get my to be nice to you." 4/1/99

[Rooj]

The examples lost their traction when they started claiming GMs are there to fix bugs, lol.

[bum3]

It all depends on the guide you got in classic. It also varied by server. Tunare guides were very active and swift. Entire guilds were dismantled and banned due to members being warned to stop ksing and training. My personal experience was when I was soloing frenzy room pre-kunark as a necro.. i could clear the room and pull the outside room. A group setup outside room and i took a mob. Was warned by a guide that my camp was only inside the frenzy room and If I took another one of their mobs I would lose my camp too. But another personal experience is my name was Bumster Heinie... 3 different guides over 2 years responded to complaint petitions on my name. All 3 said it was fine, might be a little pushy but was ok and laughed about it... then a 4th guide summoned me to GM room a couple months later and changed it.

[Baler]

Pras P99 & Pras Staff
They volunteer to do hard work.

And remember it's 2019 not 1999.
There are a new set of problems that did not exist during live clasic. Cut people some slack.

Everyone should read the Play Nice Policy & Server Rules
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349

Behave toward others as one would have others behave toward oneself.

[flacidpenguin]

So many threads recently where people seem to have the complaint of "I want to be a toxic player, but the GMs tell me not to be a toxic player, and this is somehow unfair!"

[Tecmos Deception]

Players such as myself put up with rampant spoiler site usage, toilet humour and juvenile lingo

Congrats?

[WaffleztheAndal]

I have heard too many stories of people getting suspensions for even trying to assist another player in trouble with a mob and the player perceiving it as an attempted ks. Now I assume many of these petition stories gone wrong are misconstrued or outright lies, but regardless I generally bend, back down or bow out of any kind of in-game dispute. The staff here are fantastic, and the fact they do all they do for free is just incredible. That said, all it takes is one bad day or one misunderstanding to lose days, weeks or more of progress. Maybe that makes me a wuss but it is what it is. Love the server and I’ll gladly accept these circumstances.

[strawman]

This is interesting in light of yesterday's thread about duos and trios monopolizing camps.

While the community here seems to agree it should be allowed, it sounds like in real classic, the rejected players were within their rights to simply band together and force the duo/trio out of the disputed camp.

[Cuktus]

While I understand where you are coming from, I don't think "Figure it out" is going to work. You have to remember many of us, myself included, revert back to Kindergarten while playing EQ. "MINE MINE MINE" Its sad, and I try to recognize when I am acting like an arse. But its hard when another Kindergarten comes along, doesn't want to talk, just starts saying "MINE MINE MINE" too. I start to feel stolen from, cheated, angry. Which doesn't much help the situation. And so, be both just scream "MINE MINE MINE" at each other until....? Hopeful a guide comes, reminds us both not to be stupid, and splits the camps as fairly as they see fit. Staff here are so awesome.

Anyways, just my 2cp.

[cd288]

I'm still somewhat confused about what you're saying should be done here. A lot of the examples you cite are from the very early days when the PnP was still being fleshed out. As someone who was part of the CSR team back in the day, I can tell you two things.

1. Prior to the PnP being put in place, the CSR rulings varied depending on the server (and at times depending on the specific individual handling the petition). So there were certainly plenty of instances where CSR members would intervene in situations.

2. Post-PnP I think you might be mis-remembering a bit. CSR members frequently intervened in camp/kill-stealing situations and adjudicated a solution. Telling the players to "figure it out themselves" wasn't the response because if they had been able to figure it out themselves there wouldn't be a petition. They needed a CSR member to step in and enforce how things should be done, whether that be to expel someone from the camp for being a jerk and KSing, split the camp between the two people, etc. And we had some flexibility as well. I.e. if they hadn't been able to solve the issue prior to petitioning because one party was simply being a total jerk unwilling to compromise at all and being like "lol ok petition me then" I would often just tell that person to get lost and award the camp to the people they were being a jerk to.

[Llandris]

http://i.imgur.com/YExuN4l.jpg

[cd288]

http://i.imgur.com/YExuN4l.jpg

There ya go. Thanks Llandris.

Side note, how old is that book? lol

[workbench]

I think its reasonable, given the differences of classic and p99 (e.g. no subscription) that the Policy be different. We are talking about people here, not a game mechanic. I'm sure at the time, verant wanted to enforce their policy a certain way because thats how they wanted to build their community. Same thing for the P99 staff now, and because we have years of knowledge to update a Policy with.

On another note, seems like the GM responded quickly but what I don't see in your post is the outcome. Not trying to be combative here, but I also don't see examples of P99 GMs besides your own (which would help if you provided those.) If volunteer GMs are responding quickly to disputes thats awesome. If the outcome is not consistent with the Policy, then that's another problem.

[kotton05]

In the Sirken era you could just doctor some recordings essentially framing people into being suspended.

Depends if you get a GM or the elf police.

[silo32]

didn't read

try red

[Baler]

http://i.imgur.com/YExuN4l.jpg

lol that's great

[bum3]

Non-highlighted part is interesting "Note: A "group" in this case is a party of one or more characters that are united in a common belief or goal and are capable of completing that goal" I am always in a group, even solo. So now i don't feel alone anymore when i'm soloing!

[oldhead]

So many threads recently where people seem to have the complaint of "I want to be a toxic player, but the GMs tell me not to be a toxic player, and this is somehow unfair!"


Didnt know how to sum up this post with few words and didnt want to waste too much time on it. Thanks!


The mental gymnastics in the post are... scary but extraordinary at the same time. Akin to watching a murdered kill someone.

[Mblake81]

Didnt know how to sum up this post with few words and didnt want to waste too much time on it. Thanks!


The mental gymnastics in the post are... scary but extraordinary at the same time. Akin to watching a murdered kill someone.

The internet was a place out of societal norms and people let loose (despite marketing). Now, due to cellphones and ever increasing accessibility it has become the new normal. When its normal it is not the exception.

Yes, some people were like that. The net had no filter and you sometimes you got the raw nature of people. No law, no fear and no one really gave a damn about techno geek things. Here we are arguing about whats correct in the post social media boom, where grandma is on Facebook and your three year old niece surfs youtube.

When the majority was 18-40 year old males.. tell you to plug that bleeding pussy with a kotex.

https://i.imgur.com/UW8MMxb.png

[ChairmanMauzer]

Brevity is the essence of wit...

[Khorza]

OP might have had a good point but it's completed wasted by the condescending tone he decided to take.

By the way, just because the old policy was "whenever there's a dispute the CSR gets to do whatever they want" doesn't mean it was a good policy and should be replicated on P99. Sometimes players lie and sometimes CSR agents are incredibly gullible. Sometimes the CSR has interacted with one or more of the parties in the past and that influences their decision in an unfair way. There's just way too many variables. Camps should have been defined 10 years ago.

[Mblake81]

Brevity is the essence of wit...

locked in here with your neighbors snotty nosed kid. (https://www.gamesradar.com/diablo-4-cross-play/)

[cd288]

OP might have had a good point but it's completed wasted by the condescending tone he decided to take.

By the way, just because the old policy was "whenever there's a dispute the CSR gets to do whatever they want" doesn't mean it was a good policy and should be replicated on P99. Sometimes players lie and sometimes CSR agents are incredibly gullible. Sometimes the CSR has interacted with one or more of the parties in the past and that influences their decision in an unfair way. There's just way too many variables. Camps should have been defined 10 years ago.

Out of curiosity, how are they gullible? In my experience, you generally need proof of things in order for them to take action. So it's hard to be gullible if you're not taking someone's word for things and instead requiring actual evidence.

[Dolalin]

In classic, we know that GMs generally only responded to repeated kill stealing and deliberate training, not minor disputes over camps

You can stop right there. You're wrong.

I was a guide on Mith Marr in 2000/2001, and I have fond memories of refereeing spawns at the orc and derv camps in WC between two groups. If it was contested, we made them share it. If they tried to KS the mobs from the other group, I would /kill the mob and nobody would get it. Usually this would go on for about half an hour and one group would break up.

You're absolutely wrong that guides did not referee spawns. It was one of the major things guides were there for.

[ELance]

My personal experience was when I was soloing frenzy room pre-kunark as a necro.. i could clear the room and pull the outside room. A group setup outside room and i took a mob. Was warned by a guide that my camp was only inside the frenzy room and If I took another one of their mobs I would lose my camp too.

And you exchanged no words with the others? You only took one mob and this happened? Was it a guide or a GM? I am not sure the guides were paid, but the GMs were paid professionals. But yes as a general rule the more rules there are, the worse it becomes. I am not sure of the difference between guides and GMs, but your post would be good evidence that even given a clear set of guidelines such enforcers will still sometimes behave and interpret rules erratically. Often it is just a case of illiteracy or a failure to read the guidelines in the first place. The fewer rules there are, the better. That is why I advocate GM intervention only when repeated killstealing or intentional trains are happening. I am not even opposed to these within reason, and neither were a number on alt.games.everquest in 1999; but in this thread I have advocated a more moderate position. Player conflict was a natural part of early MMORPGs, even ones without PvP. There are plenty of games where you can play apart from others.

In the end, whether it be a train, killstealing or camp dispute, the worst that can happen is you lose experience points. That is a part of the game. When a GM shows up it is not a game. The mechanics have failed to suffice. But I don't think they have. I do not share a dislike of conflict with others so much that I would call a time out and invite police to mediate it. And what is more, when this is done, it only increases conflict. The people that are petioning are prone to conflict, at least behind their computers. They have expectations out of keeping with their strength. The more power they think they have, the more they will display--squealing and whining.

In general the rule in life is that people don't read rules. GMs don't read rules, player don't read rules. So rules are not the best choice. Thankfully Everquest has systems. Sony went a step further, and would yet in Everquest II--locked and leashed encounters and instances. But Project '99 has no such ambitions.

It will be interesting to study the responses of those that disagree with me in this thread. What is the general nature of their writing? Do they write thorough, detailed posts, or one line replies that show lack of comprehension?

And let's not forget the old saying, which I think, paraphrased, is, "People who deal in poison take half their own dose." It is unpleasant for all to go against others, especially if they are fewer persons against more persons. Add to this the natural function of reputation in the game, which might blossom more if it could breathe, and even more attempts to govern players with GMs can seem heavy handed. This is a world, and we are all people, and I do not think it needs great intervention from others. We can always press the power button or go elsewhere if we don't like it. There was a story in the news a while back about a man that called police to his home with regard to an intruder. The police came, saw him in the living room, thought he was the intruder and after some misunderstanding shot him dead. Those who serve justice, do not always deliver it.

[ELance]

Pras P99 & Pras Staff
They volunteer to do hard work.

And remember it's 2019 not 1999.
There are a new set of problems that did not exist during live clasic. Cut people some slack.

Everyone should read the Play Nice Policy & Server Rules
https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349

Behave toward others as one would have others behave toward oneself.

Oh? And do you deign to tell me what those problems are that exist now?

[Khorza]

Out of curiosity, how are they gullible? In my experience, you generally need proof of things in order for them to take action. So it's hard to be gullible if you're not taking someone's word for things and instead requiring actual evidence.

I don't know, I've never really seen a GM ask for proof. It's usually one party gives their side of the story, the other party gives their side, and then a GM makes an arbitrary decision which is generally poor and not in the spirit of the game. But that's just my personal experience.

#DefineCamps2020

It will be interesting to study the responses of those that disagree with me in this thread. What is the general nature of their writing? Do they write thorough, detailed posts, or one line replies that show lack of comprehension?

Oh please. You know as well I do that there's no correlation between the length of a comment and its validity.

There's also value in brevity. I'm sure many people have skipped your comments due to their length (and the off-putting, holier-than-thou language).

[bum3]

And you exchanged no words with the others? You only took one mob and this happened? Was it a guide or a GM? I am not sure the guides were paid, but the GMs were paid professionals.

Nah i'm sure i pulled some before I realized they were there. I would just pop around corner and pull with disease cloud. They were in the hallway T behind that room. No words were spoken. Guides were volunteers. Unpaid. At least I was when I did it for a short 3 month stint. It could have been avoided if they let me know they were there. After guide warned me, I invited them to my group with the understanding I got first fbss that dropped. As a guide, when i oversaw camp disputes If they were solo/duo or partial I asked them to group together and share. If 1 group had been there a long time they kept it. But usually their kill radius got smaller. IE your group gets the room camp.. other group can have next room or hallway spawns. Then I sat invis and watched for a bit while answering question petitions. But I was one of the nicer guides, IMHO.

[solidious77]

TL only read half -- your talking about maaaaasive population differences. Not even comparable whatsoever in terms of treatment. Moreover, who gives a shit.

Does therycrafting all this really achieve anything? Seems like you spent a fuck load of time choosing percice words for no actual benfit =(

P99 staff/volunteers are not responsible for everything negative.. In fact, they are really not comended at all for all of this great work lol. A couple appreciative posts near launch; and then just constant bitching ever since.

Get a real life, so you have real shit to worry about; is the answer to most of these atrocious complaints.

[ELance]

I have heard too many stories of people getting suspensions for even trying to assist another player in trouble with a mob and the player perceiving it as an attempted ks. Now I assume many of these petition stories gone wrong are misconstrued or outright lies, but regardless I generally bend, back down or bow out of any kind of in-game dispute. The staff here are fantastic, and the fact they do all they do for free is just incredible. That said, all it takes is one bad day or one misunderstanding to lose days, weeks or more of progress. Maybe that makes me a wuss but it is what it is. Love the server and I’ll gladly accept these circumstances.

How can judges be fantastic among stories of unjustice?

I hope this to be a practical thread, and hope it will stir thought in the right direction. As things stand now, people are afraid, I have seen, to pull mobs through other groups and even to pass by other groups for further camps-- especially if that camp is not commonly taken. To make matters worse, the petitioners, emboldened by past successes (and I think any public show by a GM is a success for them, most people don't want to deal with that), will immediately harass people through tells, say or OOC. No different from classic, except people are much more afraid since it's private server. To my mind, the easiest way to recreate Everquest is through fewer rather than more rules. People openly stole kills and intentionally trained in classic, and never feared more than a warning--from the GMs. On the other hand, the beauty of classic Everquest, was that we learned lessons from our fellow players and their treatment of us after we did these things. If you trained people at high levels you were done for, and not by the GMs; you had better hope you were the brother of a guild leader--or had some very loyal friends. You were ostracized. The game became unplayable and you rerolled or left. I know cause I did eye for an eye then; it wasn't the GMs that were a problem (I never saw one of those), it was the other players.

Getting back to the players, yes, by hook or by crook it seems one group in a popular zone will have their one or two dozen mobs to pull back to back, unless a concerted group interferes and is willing to go to trial. Pick up groups will sink into their shells and go. Overcrowding? I haven't even seen elementary attempts at sharing. I saw someone in Befallen the other day say "basement is camped guy". What does that mean? The whole third floor? Isn't that big? It's worth considering when people see a GM pop up on a private server they are afraid. Most people don't want to be banned. A little of that goes a long way, and I have seen no hesitation to act from GMs. I actually saw one appear in the middle of a group the other day, less than 2 minutes after a petition for a petty camp dispute. Certainly stories like the above do not help things, I do not blame someone for pusillanimity.

[cd288]

How can judges be fantastic among stories of unjustice?

I hope this to be a practical thread, and hope it will stir thought in the right direction. As things stand now, people are afraid, I have seen, to pull mobs through other groups and even to pass by other groups for further camps-- especially if that camp is not commonly taken. To make matters worse, the petitioners, emboldened by past successes (and I think any public show by a GM is a success for them, most people don't want to deal with that), will immediately harass people through tells, say or OOC. No different from classic, except people are much more afraid since it's private server. To my mind, the easiest way to recreate Everquest is through fewer rather than more rules. People openly stole kills and intentionally trained in classic, and never feared more than a warning--from the GMs. On the other hand, the beauty of classic Everquest, was that we learned lessons from our fellow players and their treatment of us after we did these things. If you trained people at high levels you were done for, and not by the GMs; you had better hope you were the brother of a guild leader--or had some very loyal friends. You were ostracized. The game became unplayable and you rerolled or left. I know cause I did eye for an eye then; it wasn't the GMs that were a problem (I never saw one of those), it was the other players.

Getting back to the players, yes, by hook or by crook it seems one group in a popular zone will have their one or two dozen mobs to pull back to back, unless a concerted group interferes and is willing to go to trial. Pick up groups will sink into their shells and go. Overcrowding? I haven't even seen elementary attempts at sharing. I saw someone in Befallen the other day say "basement is camped guy". What does that mean? The whole third floor? Isn't that big? It's worth considering when people see a GM pop up on a private server they are afraid. Most people don't want to be banned. A little of that goes a long way, and I have seen no hesitation to act from GMs. I actually saw one appear in the middle of a group the other day, less than 2 minutes after a petition for a petty camp dispute. Certainly stories like the above do not help things, I do not blame someone for pusillanimity.

The problem with your argument is that's it's simply incorrect in terms of what you stated things were like in classic. Rules were very quickly put in place. When I was on the CSR team we definitely banned people for things like kill stealing, griefing, training, etc. etc. One of the people we banned actually tried to sue myself and a couple of other CSR team members.

[bum3]

The problem with your argument is that's it's simply incorrect in terms of what you stated things were like in classic. Rules were very quickly put in place. When I was on the CSR team we definitely banned people for things like kill stealing, griefing, training, etc. etc. One of the people we banned actually tried to sue myself and a couple of other CSR team members.

You're not Keith Rekoske are you? A pad CSR from SOE that was let go by daybreak?

[cd288]

You're not Keith Rekoske are you? A pad CSR from SOE that was let go by daybreak?

Lol no. He looks like he was there for 15 years. Was he sued or something?

[TheRusty]

So many threads recently where people seem to have the complaint of "I want to be a toxic player, but the GMs tell me not to be a toxic player, and this is somehow unfair!"

They're the abandoned manchildren of Youtube "philosophy" channels.

[Baler]

I want to train other players
I want to kill steal
I want to ninja loot
I want to grief other people off the server

So you're not a productive member of society I take it?

[bum3]

Lol no. He looks like he was there for 15 years. Was he sued or something?

Lol.. yeah.. I'm still on facebook with him. He's not in the gaming industry anymore. He's now a train conductor.

[Rooj]

Camps should have been defined 10 years ago.

Erm camps were defined yearsss ago. https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325349
Specifically, in open world you can only claim 1 spawn. In dungeons you basically only claim 1 room. Claim meaning that you are the only one "allowed" to kill the mob(s) in question, anyone else is KSing. But that doesn't mean you can't pull from other rooms, so long as said room isn't also claimed by a player. So if there are 2 rooms near each other, and there is a group in each room, anything outside of those rooms can be pulled by either group, but not in the room the groups are camping in.

Or something like that.

[Purplefluffy]

[...] One of the people we banned actually tried to sue myself and a couple of other CSR team members.

Wow.

[cd288]

Lol.. yeah.. I'm still on facebook with him. He's not in the gaming industry anymore. He's now a train conductor.

Lol what an interesting career path

[ELance]

I'm still somewhat confused about what you're saying should be done here. A lot of the examples you cite are from the very early days when the PnP was still being fleshed out. As someone who was part of the CSR team back in the day, I can tell you two things.

1. Prior to the PnP being put in place, the CSR rulings varied depending on the server (and at times depending on the specific individual handling the petition). So there were certainly plenty of instances where CSR members would intervene in situations.

2. Post-PnP I think you might be mis-remembering a bit. CSR members frequently intervened in camp/kill-stealing situations and adjudicated a solution. Telling the players to "figure it out themselves" wasn't the response because if they had been able to figure it out themselves there wouldn't be a petition. They needed a CSR member to step in and enforce how things should be done, whether that be to expel someone from the camp for being a jerk and KSing, split the camp between the two people, etc. And we had some flexibility as well. I.e. if they hadn't been able to solve the issue prior to petitioning because one party was simply being a total jerk unwilling to compromise at all and being like "lol ok petition me then" I would often just tell that person to get lost and award the camp to the people they were being a jerk to.

It would be nice if you drew some relationship between this and the point of my thread. You seem to be trying to undermine what I am saying though, so I will spare a few lines. My knowledge isn't first-hand, it's from continual examination of Usenet. I did great research for this when I argued the point a while ago, but I don't have the sources any more. Yet I will find a few more, since you are questioning the wholesomeness of my assertion.

"A group of us were working a spawn site.
Another group shows up and they take the next kill while we were medding.
An arguement then ensues about what the rules are about sharing
spawn sites. First group says that whoever gets there first OWNS the site
and does NOT have to share with people who arrive later. Second group says
first group must SHARE with those who arrive later.
A HUGE competitive kill stealing contest then erupts
One person calls a GM. The GM arrives and just says that everyone has to
work it out themselves and he then proceeds to force every mob that
spawns to commit suicide. Both groups continue to argue for 30 minutes
while every mob spawns and instantly commits suicide. GM finally calls the
HEAD GM for the server who arrives. HEAD GM talks to certain
people for 30 more minutes telling them they must come to some argreement
but
REFUSES to say what that agreement should be. Meanwhile everyone else is
standing
or sitting around for an hour watching the mobs commit hari kari.
Finally everyone agrees to share the site and GMs leave." 11/12/99

Actually this one example should be enough. The GM and head GM waited an hour for players to work things out themselves. They did nothing in the dispute, and it is likely (from other evidence) they were there because of the kill stealing, not the petty argument about who owned what. I have not seen much evidence in '99 that Sony acknowledged camps.

As to the play nice policy, since we are being so factual, rather than speaking of general truths, that was about a month before Ruins of Kunark, a year after release of Everquest. The pertinent part of that, as someone wrote, is "anyone needs to share a camp with anyone who comes along wanting to hunt there too." Your comments show again as I wrote before the erratic behavior of various such enforcers, and testify to the advantage of their absence. Your arguments about jerks and people getting lost show your emotional attachment. I wouldn't let you on a jury, or be a judge. Maybe a traffic cop. Something simple.

[M.J.]

Your arguments about jerks and people getting lost show your emotional attachment. I wouldn't let you on a jury, or be a judge. Maybe a traffic cop. Something simple.

LETS BE CONSTRUCTIVE GUYS, ALSO YOU'RE ALL FAGGOTS.

But seriously, without shrink in for a spell (heh), the talk about rooms being the "camp" is bunk. Go claim a room as a group of fatties in SolA, that shit is like the clown car olympics.

[Cuktus]

"A group of us were working a spawn site.

Another group shows up and they take the next kill while we were medding.

HEAD GM talks to certain people for 30 more minutes telling them they must come to some argreement
but
REFUSES to say what that agreement should be.



"I want to be able to steal a camp and that be okay" is what you are trying to say. No.

[lordpazuzu]

Where's the TL;DR on this?

[ELance]

It is sad how many disrespectful or off topic replies are in this thread. Even a GM answered my post with a picture, with no comment. Yes it does appear Project '99 uses the Play Nice Policy as its model, but it does not. Camps are enforced on Project '99, they were not in Everquest, from March 2000 (the month of the Play Nice Policy, about) and later. GMs do not make people share camps on Project '99, they define them. For instance the pond in Mistmoore is a camp. There is no sharing of that (How do I know? Don't ask. I do). But you know when I made this post, it didn't depend on any certain evidence to support it. The attitude of some people on this message board is hideous, they have no respect for their fellow man. How can you call yourself civilized when you answer five paragraphs with one sentence, or a picture, for heavens sakes? This person is a GM? It is hard to understand how some of these people think, or if they do.

I will resist all attempts to make me into a pedant by disrespectful people. If this means I need to killfile them then I will.

And where is that report button? The FAQ says there is a red report button on the message boards somewhere for objectionable content, but I don't see it. At least two pages of irrelevant posts can be cleared out of here.

[solidious77]

Personally, the point has been lost since the first wall of text and overthought response. Reading your paragraphs are painful; the quality of your words and horrific punctuation are far overshadowing your point.

In short, why can't you just type P99 instead of "Project '99". You're literally taking the time to add the apostrophe every fuckin time.. get to the fucking point already cause i still don't know what everyone is bitching about today lol.

Is it that gm's are too involved? Would it really be a better expierence if they wern't involved? Wouldn't one out of two people still be on the losing end; and still find something to bitch about? Probably the reverse arguement like 'where is all the staff' haha.

Why can't people just enjoy playing the game the way its presented now; instead of trying to change it to their vision? If its not fun anymore, then don't play. /shrug

[Rooj]

This discussion has been had before.

Different servers had different GMs. Some servers had a GM enforced rotation on raid mobs. Some servers did not.

Some servers apparently had GMs bad at their job. Some servers did not. Or maybe behind the scenes Verant/SOE purposely set it up this way so different servers would have different "personalities." Who knows.

Regardless, the PNP was a part of EQ and it's a part of P99.

Edit to add: If you want to see these servers turn into Red population numbers, get rid of CSR and camps, lol.