Troll SK - too much pain to bother?

[Frug]

I really like Trolls. And SK's. But I don't want to have to solo because no one will group.

For those out there actually playing (Teal, mostly, but I'll take input from Greens), do you find it:

* Impossible to get a group (for those playing Hybrids)
* Actively restrict hybrids from grouping with you (for those not)

Or is this largely overblown? I don't mind that I won't level as fast as the hobbit warrior, but I don't want to have to solo all the time to do it.

[skipdog]

My SK has been invited to plenty of groups so far on green.

We have no way to know how restrictive people will get about groups until a larger population of these SKs start to get into the later teens, 20s and 30s.

There absolutely will be group members who won't want the xp penalty and will do what they can to avoid grouping with hybrids. There is no way to know how prevalent this mentality will be.

Honestly, I feel like no matter what class you choose, it will be difficult to find groups at times, even with Teal existing.

[Sandroid]

I’m doing ogre SK on Teal. Hybrid penalty doesn’t really matter as a tank. Groups want tanks.

[bum3]

There are 3 types of people right now from what i've seen. Soloers, Pet class groups, and everyone else who aren't discriminating. The majority of people are the last. My guild has 3 sks and 2 pallies and none have any trouble getting groups. The enchanters on the other hand... lfg all night.

[magusfire24]

The hybrid penalty isnt an external penalty. It just means that class requires more exp per level . not that they get less. They will just level slower then some of the group is all. Group exp for others will be the same

[zodium]

The hybrid penalty isnt an external penalty. It just means that class requires more exp per level . not that they get less. They will just level slower then some of the group is all. Group exp for others will be the same

AKSHUALLY

the exp penalty is shared with the group

[bum3]

The hybrid penalty isnt an external penalty. It just means that class requires more exp per level . not that they get less. They will just level slower then some of the group is all. Group exp for others will be the same

? And here I thought group exp was shared and calculated by total exp needed to level of each player in the group then divided evenly. That's why grouping with someone 2 lvls higher is worse exp than grouping with a hybrid your level.

[strawman]

The hybrid penalty isnt an external penalty. It just means that class requires more exp per level . not that they get less. They will just level slower then some of the group is all. Group exp for others will be the same

Another thread I was reading last night said that the hybrids take a larger share of the XP from each kill in a group

[dekova]

The hybrid penalty isnt an external penalty. It just means that class requires more exp per level . not that they get less. They will just level slower then some of the group is all. Group exp for others will be the same

Absolutely incorrect.

Still love a good hybrid tanks though.

[Tecmos Deception]

The hybrid penalty isnt an external penalty. It just means that class requires more exp per level . not that they get less. They will just level slower then some of the group is all. Group exp for others will be the same

eQ Is SoLVeD guISE

eVeRyONE knOwS iT AlL

it'S 2019 guiSe

[magusfire24]

I stand corrected. Still not a good reason to be excluded. Where is the race to max level?

[Converse]

I really like Trolls. And SK's. But I don't want to have to solo because no one will group.

For those out there actually playing (Teal, mostly, but I'll take input from Greens), do you find it:

* Impossible to get a group (for those playing Hybrids)
* Actively restrict hybrids from grouping with you (for those not)

Or is this largely overblown? I don't mind that I won't level as fast as the hobbit warrior, but I don't want to have to solo all the time to do it.

Thus far, I can't say that I've seen any hybrid tank prejudice first hand. SK has utility, amazing threat generation, feign, plate. I personally wouldn't care & wouldn't hesitate to bring one into my group. Come on over, friend!

Additionally, I've seen numerous times where groups advertise "LF Tank" for long periods without success. Feels like a shortage on them right now. Which means it's a perfect time to level one up right now!

[Graventhel]

As long as you are willing to tank, then this is a largely overblown issue save for a few jerks.

[jacob54311]

AKSHUALLY

the exp penalty is shared with the group

How does this work?

Everyone isn't hit with the full 40 percent penalty, are they? Is the penalty sort of divided up amongst players?

[oldhead]

Exp pen is real. There is a prejudice against it. Anyone saying otherwise is ling or naive.

But so few tanks it should balance it out... but its there.

Pal, sk, ranger... all do not high unless have too. With ranger never really have to.

This is why war is so popular by comparison even tho they are the sucky group tank.

One other think that helps the tank get group is the mage pet nerf. Pets are viable tanks in exp groups especially in classes when tanks are fuck all paper thin.

Best casual pug exp group setup currently is two or three pets with the highest pet taunt on and no melee.

A healer or two.

something else that does dmg like a chanter. No melee cus then pets cant tank.

[Baler]

Claiming you leveled with -60% exp modifier is something you can brag about forever to gain peoples awe.

[cubiczar]

How does this work?

Everyone isn't hit with the full 40 percent penalty, are they? Is the penalty sort of divided up amongst players?

Take a look here, great explanation on the wiki:

How experience works (https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works)

[Grindak]

I completely ignore the XP penalty when inviting people to my groups. A tank is a tank, healer a healer, etc.

I am here to have fun, kill some stuff and hang out with nice people.

[Graventhel]

How does this work?

Everyone isn't hit with the full 40 percent penalty, are they? Is the penalty sort of divided up amongst players?


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2968138&postcount=57

[Tecmos Deception]

Is the penalty sort of divided up amongst players?

That's the TLDR.

Basically each mob gives a set amount of exp. That exp is divided amongst group mates proportionally based on their exp totals, rather than dividing by the number of players or even by the number of players while including penalties bonuses.

A level 32 grouping with level 28s will make the level 28's exp gains feel really slow, even if nobody has an exp penalty. Level 40 halfling cleric grouping with level 40 troll SK, the halfling will feel like his exp is really slow even though his partner is the same level. Etc. This is because the 32/the troll have a much higher exp total, and so are taking a proportionally larger chunk of the exp per mob, so exp feels slow for everyone else unless the person with the bigger exp total murders mobs so efficiently that it makes up for the exp penalty.

And then you get groups with a troll SK tank and a troll sham and a bard and a ranger... and those groups are what convert people to disliking exp penalties and sometimes shunning hybrids in favor of mages, necros, rogues, enchanters, etc, who generally bring more to the table while also having a lower exp penalty.

[bum3]

How does this work?

Everyone isn't hit with the full 40 percent penalty, are they? Is the penalty sort of divided up amongst players?

It's by total exp of each groupmate. So a hybrid needs more exp to level so they get a larger number.. so a non hybrid and the hybrid get the % exp to next lvl... also same for someone higher lvl. 5 lvl 5s and a lvl 8 in a group.. the 8 is eating the most exp.. more so than another lvl 5 hybrid would have ate.

[jacob54311]

Take a look here, great explanation on the wiki:

How experience works (https://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works)

Thanks.

I would think the advantages of having a proper tank would outweigh them getting a little bit larger share of xp in most groups.

[Palemoon]

I was a troll SK at launch back in the day, on rallos zek at that. I had no clue about the xp penalty at first. But then I thought it just applied to me, until a group would not invite me because they knew it was shared.

I remember the agony of getting randomly ganked by NPCs all over the world for faction as the most painful thing. Though having to solo at times as a troll SK back then was a close second.

Do it if you want to win this game on hardcore mode.

[Lulz Sect]

recently realized i no longer held the same naïveté towards classic SK leveling i once did back in Red 1999 ClassiC launch

all it took was playing a caster (since SK suspension) for four hours and making nearly the same lvling gaiNs a SK 1.5 wknd took

BiG RiP

[Tecmos Deception]

Thanks.

I would think the advantages of having a proper tank would outweigh them getting a little bit larger share of xp in most groups.

Fixed.

[Zill]

So does this whole group sharing XP splits thing mean Halflings are essentially the best race to group with?

A Halfling warrior would basically be getting flowers and blowies from every group in Norrath?

[Tecmos Deception]

All things being equal, a halfing warrior would be great to group with. But there's more to actual fast level gain than exp bonuses. And a halfling warrior or two still doesn't make a big difference compared to what a hybrid or two does to a group, or what 4 pet classes do to a group, etc.

[silo32]

So does this whole group sharing XP splits thing mean Halflings are essentially the best race to group with?

A Halfling warrior would basically be getting flowers and blowies from every group in Norrath?

we repped out a high elf paladin for a Halfling warrior last night

the penalty is real and shared

[silo32]

Exp pen is real. There is a prejudice against it. Anyone saying otherwise is ling or naive.

But so few tanks it should balance it out... but its there.

Pal, sk, ranger... all do not high unless have too. With ranger never really have to.

This is why war is so popular by comparison even tho they are the sucky group tank.

One other think that helps the tank get group is the mage pet nerf. Pets are viable tanks in exp groups especially in classes when tanks are fuck all paper thin.

Best casual pug exp group setup currently is two or three pets with the highest pet taunt on and no melee.

A healer or two.

something else that does dmg like a chanter. No melee cus then pets cant tank.

pretty much this for a long time....

[Siege]

Think of it this way: The 40% hybrid penalty is almost as bad as the 50% pet penalty that mages have to deal with, but you can't sit on your ass and let your overpowered pet kill stuff for you and then have it regen at an increases rate between pulls, and your penalty doesn't poof into thin air the second you join a group. And as a troll, that penalty goes from 40% to 60%.

You'll also have to solo in the most horrific possible way: fear kiting.

[dekova]

And as a troll, that penalty goes from 40% to 60%.

It's multiplicative, so total penalty for troll sk is 68%. Crazy right?

Still... love grouping with an sk.

[Siege]

It's multiplicative, so total penalty for troll sk is 68%. Crazy right?

Still... love grouping with an sk.

That's brutal. You could almost level a couple halflings to 50 for the same amount of XP it would take you to get a single troll SK to 50.

[kaluppo]

Tanks are in short supply so I don't see you having a problem getting a group. As long as YOU are ok with the XP penalty then you should be able to find groups easy enough. I will gladly group with an SK or Paladin.

[Natewest1987]

tough question. Personally, it would depend most on what content we were doing, how dense the mob count is, and I guess my level in relation to that content. ZEM too. Would I group with a hybrid at a static 6 min spawn in a low zem zone? No. Would I think much about it while in a group that’s chain pulling in unrest? Probably not.

I generally do not seek out hybrids, but if I’m desperate for a group, and happen to land in a group that has a hybrid, it’s whatever. However if I get there and there happens to be more than one, then I’m quietly LFG elsewhere. I’d take a good hard in a duo though, and most dungeon crawls or chain pulling groups

[Spock2020]

Personally if there is 1 hybrid and it's a tank I don't mind. If there is more then 1 I will look for another group.

[Smashed]

Some groups won’t want a hybrid. Those groups are usually trash anyway. They hang out near zone lines in case a caster has to zone after overagroing. Slow lands at 50% mob health, etc. Then there’s the enchanter charm pet heavy groups that actually want a tank to hold aggro and those groups like SKs, pals or even rangers. XP in the latter groups is usually much better.

[Widan]

Enchanters definitely do not want a tank or a full group except in rare cases with backstabbing mobs in high ZEM zones, i.e. Osargen.

[Noselacri]

I played a ranger to 20 when green launched and nobody ever so much as mentioned the hybrid penalty, but then it's only 40% for rangers whereas troll SKs have like 68% or something. The general shortage of tanks means people will usually just accept the penalty. It's not that bad as long as the hybrid isn't also several levels above the rest of the group. If everyone's the same level, one hybrid won't make a noticeable difference. Spread across a 6-man group, it's like 8.5% for a rng/pal/brd and 11% for a troll SK, and people are full of shit if they think 10% less XP matters. But if there's two hybrids or one that's 3-4 levels higher than you, it gets kinda bad.

Right now, warriors are absolute garbage so groups should actively look for hybrid tanks. Warriors without proccing weapons are just utterly useless. People like to say "herp derp just keep every mob rooted 100% of the time" as if root doesn't break every five seconds and cost serious mana at lower levels. It's just something people say to feel better about a broken, dysfunctional class. It's nearly impossible to keep a mob rooted for any length of time when a whole group is DPSing it. The sad reality is that hybrids are the only worthwhile tanks at this point in time. A warrior without (at the very least) 2x Obsidian Shard is just not a tank.

[turbosilk]

People want real tanks. Every warrior in my groups so far has meant the mobs attack everyone except the warrior.

[Benanov]

People like to say "herp derp just keep every mob rooted 100% of the time" as if root doesn't break every five seconds and cost serious mana at lower levels.

Pretty much. It's almost like they don't have root on their spell bar. :)

Root is to me a crowd-control measure rather than a aggro management spell. It's better than mez if you have people who are target-happy or dot-happy.

The funny thing is...some of this stuff isn't classic, but we might be limited by technical limitations here.

I do remember that there was a series of changes to nerf root where DD's broke root more and melee gained a chance to break root. People really feared ghouls back in the day. Ghoulroot was nasty. Root was also really nasty in PvP. Really nasty. If you were a melee and you got rooted...you started bagging your armor.

Divine Aura, now that's aggro management for a cleric. Before guilds figured out how to abuse it against AoW in Velious, mobs would happily beat on a DA'd cleric if they were on top of the hate list. Who needs a CH chain when all of your clerics can just tank for 36 seconds each? And the mob's rooted, so when the timer gets close you just back up. DA dropping you down the hate list is not classic, until Velious.

(SHD's also shouldn't have lifetaps this early in the game, either. Those were given to them as a result of balance changes.)

[Lamil]

As a rogue I love it when a SK tanks in my groups. Hell i had Two SK's and a ranger in my group last night. I guess it depends if people are trying to lvl really fast which I'm not really sure why you want to at this point but oh well everyone plays differently.. Thing is SK/PAlly can hold aggro for me to Backstab stuff where a warrior usually just is dps while the mob runs around. Yes root works but I don't see it used a ton since mana pools and stuff are low.

[Gatorsmash]

People want real tanks. Every warrior in my groups so far has meant the mobs attack everyone except the warrior.

Lol this^ I could grab agro at will on my SK.

And thanks assholes, seeing all the troll sk's in game and all the sk posts made it impossible to ignore on my nice easy to level shaman. I caved in and resurrected my original first toon from live launch a troll sk.

Pro tip- bought a player crafted 2-hand sword and made lvl 3 in about an hour. Surprisingly better than I thought it would be (the weapon) and was a nice feeling before the pain starts.

[apprentice04]

I would like to chime in as a paladin tank at 25. I havnt gotten on any alts yet so I dont really have any other basis of comparison for xp gain per hour as a paladin versus warrior or cleric.

I do know that I have grouped with a few warriors and they were basically a rogue without back stab that couldn't build and hold threat. I joined a group with a warrior in it and purposely was just auto attacking with my two hander and yaulping. I wanted the warrior to have his turn tanking, he was in the group before me so didnt seem fair to spam flash.

But then the rogue started backstabbing and getting pummeled. Then the cleric would drop a fat heal on the rogue and get pummeled. Then the wizard panicked and started nuking from orbit (because its the only way to be sure) and got pummeled before I gave up and started flashing to hold aggro.

I felt bad for the warrior, but even more bad for the group who had obviously been playing this way for a few hours before I joined. That was right before the server rebooted for teal launch and the warrior didnt log back in afterwards.

I know in the 20's I am having a harder and harder time finding tanks to replace me when I need to leave a group. I know when I log on, I am not LFG for very long and often get tells for people starting groups or tells from tanks asking me to replace them.

I have gotten 2 groups gripe at me for my hybrid xp tax, but then thank me for joining so the hybrid taxed xp could continue to flow.

Just wanted to echo the other comments that people know the tax, they feel the tax, they hate the tax, but they have no alternatives right now. I am sure that will change once warriors start getting yaks though.

[bwe]

Can a dex focused warrior with obsidian shards or whatever even sort of keep up with a pal or sk?

[bum3]

Can a dex focused warrior with obsidian shards or whatever even sort of keep up with a pal or sk?

They do better but if a pal or sk wants the agro they can still take it from said warrior.

[Gatorsmash]

Can a dex focused warrior with obsidian shards or whatever even sort of keep up with a pal or sk?

No. The agro values from some of the SK's spells, the debuffs/dot/snares dont do "a lot" but generate a ton of snap agro. At the party level warriors just dont have the agro tools of a SK and too a lesser degree pally. Raids is where warriors shin.