Should ZEM even be in the game this early?

[Coridan]

Don't get me wrong, I have been rocking it in Befallen, but I'm certain ZEM wasn't even introduced until paw 2.0

[Ahris]

Don't get me wrong, I have been rocking it in Befallen, but I'm certain ZEM wasn't even introduced until paw 2.0

Well if you have proof it wasn't they might reconsider, they can't just take your word or 20 year old memory for it. There are many things on green that wasn't in at launch but since there are no records of exactly when they were added they are simply left in.

[Rooj]

I'm not sure, but this post got me going here http://wiki.project1999.com/Patch_Notes and searching "ZEM" and "experience." Some neat informations in there. It seems like the exp loss from death was reduced multiple times for example, lol.

A lot to read, still reading.

[Coridan]

I'll grant my 20 year old memory isn't a reliable source, but at the same time they hid ZEM stuff back on live so it's likely there is no actual source unless we ask a developer.

I can tell you though that on live there were constantly groups in highpass, orc highway and aviak city and people weren't doing 3 levels in one session in Befallen/Guk.

[cd288]

I think this was something you should have brought up in the lead up to launch. They’re not gonna change it at this point.

[Coridan]

ZEMs get brought up all the time, the staff never talks about it though.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

I'll grant my 20 year old memory isn't a reliable source, but at the same time they hid ZEM stuff back on live so it's likely there is no actual source unless we ask a developer.

I can tell you though that on live there were constantly groups in highpass, orc highway and aviak city and people weren't doing 3 levels in one session in Befallen/Guk.

Yea speaking purely anecdotally, the XP seems quite rapid. Then again I sure died a lllloooooottttt more back in the day which would've slowed things considerably.

[Danth]

You can't not have a zone experience modifier in the game. It's a core part of the game's basic functionality. The game doesn't work without it. If a zone didn't have a "ZEM" you'd get no experience for anything you killed. You won't see (much) discussion of it in the very early days simply because the acronym hadn't come into common use yet. That being said, I don't remember when they began to tinker with experience modifiers beyond their original launch values, and neither do I have any indication that P99's values are equivalent to classic.

Note that most zones consider a normal experience modifier 75 (not 100) because 989/Verant decided to slow everyone down after creating the basic system once they realized people could level pretty quickly and there was very little content for upper level players.

-----------------------------------------------

With respect to the above post, people can definitely level more quickly than in the original game. My first serious character took me several months (all summer, basically), playing quite a lot, just to get to about level thirty or so. Turns out grinding in full or near full groups who are pulling maybe half a dozen monsters per round was a lousy way to try to level.

Danth

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Yes like I said purely anecdotal evidence. I'd love rotating ZEMs on Green/Teal unannounced and hidden to keep players moving around though

[Coridan]

I'd be fine if there was no ZEM at all. The drops already make dungeons worth hunting on over places like Orc Highway or crocs.

[Fireblade7]

High ZEMs for dungeons with amazing loot don’t even make sense. The high ZEMs should have been terrible zones where no one wanted to go, making people choose between loot and exp

[Rooj]

High ZEMs for dungeons with amazing loot don’t even make sense. The high ZEMs should have been terrible zones where no one wanted to go, making people choose between loot and exp

Which is pretty much what SOE said themselves in Jan 2001. Now how things ended up the way they supposedly are, AKA completely contradictory to that statement, I have no idea.

I do wish the staff would talk about it more, since it's a pretty big part of the game, but they feel like even just talking about it is unclassic.

[loramin]

Now how things ended up the way they supposedly are, AKA completely contradictory to that statement, I have no idea.

I think this was a case of the staff trying to make things more classic, by changing the ZEMs from the classic values to add mystery.

But what we gained in classic "mystery", we lost in ... well, everything else. As I've said in other threads, NO ONE wins from the current ZEM system. Whether you're a classicist or a "make P99 as close to live today as possible" player, and whether you want to see "classic clumping" in certain dungeons or whether you'd like to see the population more spread out ...

... no matter what, the current ZEMs don't serve your, or anyone else's, interest. I honestly don't think they even serve the staff's (except that not changing them = less work for the staff).

[Roth]

I think this was a case of the staff trying to make things more classic, by changing the ZEMs from the classic values to add mystery.

But what we gained in classic "mystery", we lost in ... well, everything else. As I've said in other threads, NO ONE wins from the current ZEM system. Whether you're a classicist or a "make P99 as close to live today as possible" player, and whether you want to see "classic clumping" in certain dungeons or whether you'd like to see the population more spread out ...

... no matter what, the current ZEMs don't serve your, or anyone else's, interest. I honestly don't think they even serve the staff's (except that not changing them = less work for the staff).

I understand what you're saying here, you've posted this same thing a few times, but it's really distracting from the actual issue. Any changes the staff have made to zem have seemed to be minor and mostly the issues are with the original or stock values of zem. Trying to misdirect this issue onto the staff setting bad zems is out of touch with the actual problems. All zones that had originally high zems seem to still have high zems.

[Lulz Sect]

if the Project 1999: Green/Teal 2019 ZEMS are randomly generated and randomly change after X hour/X date, do you EVEN think Staff would let the playerbase know?

i think not

[loramin]

I understand what you're saying here, you've posted this same thing a few times, but it's really distracting from the actual issue. Any changes the staff have made to zem have seemed to be minor and mostly the issues are with the original or stock values of zem. Trying to misdirect this issue onto the staff setting bad zems is out of touch with the actual problems. All zones that had originally high zems seem to still have high zems.

And you're basing that on ... your wishes? A handful of zones you've visited? I mean if you're going to call me out and say I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe have something to base it on? :rolleyes:

No one (except the staff) knows the current ZEMs, so it's fallacious for anyone to claim that A) they know what they all are, and B) that they're all the same as, or close to, classic ZEMs. All you, I, or anyone else has to go on is subjective player reports. If you take those reports for what they are, in aggregate, they most certainly do strongly suggest that zones here have unclassic ZEMs, and this fact is not controversial.

People have given numerous specific examples (eg. in those other threads you referenced reading). There's no point in repeating them all here, but one very obvious one is Kedge Keep. Kedge gave very good XP on live, and gives comparatively terrible XP here, so while no one knows it's exact ZEM, subjective measurements strongly suggest it's significantly different (and not classic) here.

At the end of the day, I'm all for rotating dynamic ZEMs, or the staff setting some new sensible ones that encourage people to not clump, or whatever. I'm also in favor of 100% classic ZEMs. But either way, if we can't even acknowledge the reality that the staff made a Faustian bargain with ZEMs here (they wanted mystery and traded both the original devs' goals/logic and the "soul of classic" to get it), I don't see how the discussion can really be honest.

TLDR; I don't see how unclassically nerfing the XP of a zone like Kedge makes the game better for anyone ... but P99 definitely does it.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

if the Project 1999: Green/Teal 2019 ZEMS are randomly generated and randomly change after X hour/X date, do you EVEN think Staff would let the playerbase know?

i think not

No and it could be a scripted event. We've seen bonus XP be implemented without having to take any servers offline in the past.

[Roth]

And you're basing that on ... your wishes? A handful of zones you've visited? I mean if you're going to call me out and say I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe have something to base it on? :rolleyes:

No one (except the staff) knows the current ZEMs, so it's fallacious for anyone to claim that A) they know what they all are, and B) that they're all the same as, or close to, classic ZEMs. All you, I, or anyone else has to go on is subjective player reports. If you take those reports for what they are, in aggregate, they most certainly do strongly suggest that zones here have unclassic ZEMs, and this fact is not controversial.

People have given numerous specific examples (eg. in those other threads you referenced reading). There's no point in repeating them all here, but one very obvious one is Kedge Keep. Kedge gave very good XP on live, and gives comparatively terrible XP here, so while no one knows it's exact ZEM, subjective measurements strongly suggest it's significantly different (and not classic) here.

At the end of the day, I'm all for rotating dynamic ZEMs, or the staff setting some new sensible ones that encourage people to not clump, or whatever. I'm also in favor of 100% classic ZEMs. But either way, if we can't even acknowledge the reality that the staff made a Faustian bargain with ZEMs here (they wanted mystery and traded both the original devs' goals/logic and the "soul of classic" to get it), I don't see how the discussion can really be honest.

TLDR; I don't see how unclassically nerfing the XP of a zone like Kedge makes the game better for anyone ... but P99 definitely does it.

So do YOU know what you're talking about? You're basically going off on a tangent assuming that they messed with every zem, when there's no evidence that's the case. Guk, crushbone, najena, befallen all seem to give the most exp which matches up.

[loramin]

So do YOU know what you're talking about? You're basically going off on a tangent assuming that they messed with every zem, when there's no evidence that's the case. Guk, crushbone, najena, befallen all seem to give the most exp which matches up.

It does not logically follow that because five zones seem to have classic ZEMs, that all ZEMs, for every zone in Project 1999, are classic.

That I have to explain something as basic as that to you, or the fact that people care about zones other than your pet five, just demonstrates why there's no point in engaging further with you.

[Roth]

It does not logically follow that because five zones seem to have classic ZEMs, that all ZEMs, for every zone in Project 1999, are classic.

That I have to explain something as basic as that to you, or the fact that people care about zones other than your pet five, just demonstrates why there's no point in engaging further with you.

No one that I have seen agrees with this argument at all. Pretty much every debate I've seen is over the zem listed on the wiki. If you think that they have changed zem for guk/ct, provide evidence.

Edit: also I acknowledge they've changed zem for zones like kedge and possibly lake for balance reasons. That's a corner case and not really related to this topic.

[fischsemmel]

No one (except the staff) knows the current ZEMs

It's easy to test them.

[cd288]

It's easy to test them.

For real. It’s always funny to me when people go “No OnEs KnOwS tEh ZEMs” as though we didn’t just spend a decade on Blue watching our EXP go up significantly faster in those zones than in others lol

[Dolalin]

ZEMs were in from the start. But the insane bonuses on newb dungeon ZEMs was added during PoP when they added the low level cleric rez spells etc.

I've done all the digging.

In era sources from a ShowEQ dev that the max ZEM was 100 pre-Luclin, explicit references to Crushbone and Najena ZEMs being 80, and so on.

We are playing with PoP ZEMs and this should change.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343193

[BlackBellamy]

Yeah, the ZEMs are most unclassic thing here. I'm getting a huge bonus in one of the most popular dungeons in the game, wtf? It's ALREADY popular. But it wasn't during PoP because by then everyone went on to new places, so they gave it a high ZEM we're seeing here.

[Zeboim]

I'd settle for HHK being nerfed into the ground.

[unleashedd]

everyone pines about classic this, and slow exp/enjoy the journey that, and wearing shit gear... just get rid of ZEMs, people will love it.

[cd288]

The ZEMs on P99 are also sort of weird in that they don’t seem to accomplish what ZEMs were supposed to be, which is motivation to go to places that you might not otherwise go due to danger etc.

Befallen makes sense, as does a zone like the Warrens. But CB? Unrest? Neither of those are particularly dangerous zones!(Unrest, for instance, if you’re in the MR you can pretty much avoid any trains for other floors by standing in the corner of the room). Highkeep? Hardly dangerous and phenomenal loot...people would go there regardless. Kurns? Barely dangerous at all.

Guk I think can be dangerous if there aren’t enough people in it clearing stuff, but even then the loot is good so people would go there anyway regardless of ZEM.

Then you have zones like Mistmoore, CT, and Splitpaw which I would argue should have higher ZEMs than the zones above since they’re much more dangerous. Permafrost is another that I think would make sense to have a higher ZEM than some of the zones above if for nothing else than just to encourage more people to hang out there.

The ZEMs just don’t really make sense in a lot of ways and we’d never have had them stay static for years back on live, which meant people wouldn’t just have this same EXP highway to do for years. Maybe it’s difficult or otherwise an annoying hassle to switch up ZEMs periodically and that’s why they don’t do it?

[fadetree]

ZEMs were in from the start. But the insane bonuses on newb dungeon ZEMs was added during PoP when they added the low level cleric rez spells etc.

I've done all the digging.

In era sources from a ShowEQ dev that the max ZEM was 100 pre-Luclin, explicit references to Crushbone and Najena ZEMs being 80, and so on.

We are playing with PoP ZEMs and this should change.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343193

I think Dolalin is correct. My opinion:
ZEM was always a core mechanic. That way they could make small adjustments to compensate for the 'difficulty' of a dungeon/zone. It could also be used globally to slow people down across the board, as was mentioned.

Luclin and the insane zem on Paludal Caverns was the fist sign that the devs were beginning to react to fears that new people would be left behind as the huge wave of people that had been playing all along would all be end game. They were afraid they'd start to lose new subs because 'there's no-one to play with'. Solution - tinker with noob dungeons to really crank up the zem, that way people can blast through and join their friends. Of course, much later, they were like, 'eh...just start 'em at 80'.

They also started to think about underused zones and how to get people to them, since, craven little min-maxers that we are, everyone followed the same path through 4 or 5 zones to end game. This was what started the 'hot zone' idea later.

I also think the zems in play on p99 are probably from a much later era. Should they fix them? I think so...the problem is I don't think we have any hard data that describes all of the zems per zone at an era that applies to classic. Also, we may SAY we want it 'fixed', but of they did I bet it would cause a firestorm of complaining.

The zem change to Kedge was a p99-specific deal...not sure exactly but I think it was a response to people being able to exploit charm and.or pbAOE or something and render the dungeon easy and yet still with a high zem.

[Fammaden]

I'd settle for HHK being nerfed into the ground.

[lordpazuzu]

Back in the day we weren't aware of such a thing as a ZEM and so we all spread out more. Now, knowing what they are, we cram around the high ZEM zones and avoid zones with ZEM penalties, so certain places are camped to the gills while others remain under-utilized. Whether the ZEM in and of itself is classic or not, I don't know. But KNOWING that they exist and what they are definitely does not make for a classic experience (no pun intended.)

[jlxharville]

I'd be 100% okay with no ZEM. Make exploring great again...

Instead everyones crunched into a few zones. I mean, why?

Lots on this server isn't entirely classic... might as well just do this.

[cd288]

I think Dolalin is correct. My opinion:
ZEM was always a core mechanic. That way they could make small adjustments to compensate for the 'difficulty' of a dungeon/zone. It could also be used globally to slow people down across the board, as was mentioned.

Luclin and the insane zem on Paludal Caverns was the fist sign that the devs were beginning to react to fears that new people would be left behind as the huge wave of people that had been playing all along would all be end game. They were afraid they'd start to lose new subs because 'there's no-one to play with'. Solution - tinker with noob dungeons to really crank up the zem, that way people can blast through and join their friends. Of course, much later, they were like, 'eh...just start 'em at 80'.

They also started to think about underused zones and how to get people to them, since, craven little min-maxers that we are, everyone followed the same path through 4 or 5 zones to end game. This was what started the 'hot zone' idea later.

I also think the zems in play on p99 are probably from a much later era. Should they fix them? I think so...the problem is I don't think we have any hard data that describes all of the zems per zone at an era that applies to classic. Also, we may SAY we want it 'fixed', but of they did I bet it would cause a firestorm of complaining.

The zem change to Kedge was a p99-specific deal...not sure exactly but I think it was a response to people being able to exploit charm and.or pbAOE or something and render the dungeon easy and yet still with a high zem.

IIRC we use the ZEMs currently in place because those are the last comprehensive ones we have. There are obviously references to certain zones here and there pre-this list of ZEMs, but I don't think there was ever a comprehensive one that they could locate so they use the comprehensive one that's available from as close to classic era as they can get.

[Frostback]

January 14, 2001
Zone Experience

The first and perhaps easiest to explain change that we are making to the experience system is the modification of what we call the "Zone Experience Multiplier", or 'ZEM'. Currently, every creature in game of a given level yields a fixed amount of "Base Experience" (experience before it is allocated to group members). That base experience is then multiplied by the ZEM which is set to a value in correlation with the risk in a particular zone compared with the reward; at least, that is the goal.
https://web.archive.org/web/20010609100231/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

[Bookie]

January 14, 2001

at least, that is the goal.


Northern Karana 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75
Oasis of Marr 75 75 75 75 75 75
Gorge of King Xorbb (Beholder's Maze) 75 75 75 75
Eastern Karana 75 75 75 75 75 75
Lavastorm Mountains 75 75 75 75 75 75
Ocean of Tears 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75 75
Highpass Hold 80 80 80
Runnyeye 100 100 100 100 100 100
Rathe Mountains 75 75 75 75 75
Lake Rathetear 75 75 75
Southern Karana 75 75 75 75 75
Permafrost 90 90 90 90 90 90 90 90
Najena 130 130 130 130 130
High Keep 150 150 150
Splitpaw Lair 90 90 90 90 90
Cazic Thule 85 85 85 85 85
Solusek's Eye (Solusek A) 130 130 130 130 130
Lower Guk 80 80 80 80 80
Nagafen's Lair (Solusek B) 80 80 80

[vossiewulf]

I'd make a few higher-ZEM zones, and change them every day, putting as much distance as possible between yesterday's and today's, and also maximize the distance from porting locations. That way we'll at least get to laugh at the people obsessed by this as they run daily from one end of Norrath to the other.

[Converse]

ZEMs were in from the start. But the insane bonuses on newb dungeon ZEMs was added during PoP when they added the low level cleric rez spells etc.

I've done all the digging.

In era sources from a ShowEQ dev that the max ZEM was 100 pre-Luclin, explicit references to Crushbone and Najena ZEMs being 80, and so on.

We are playing with PoP ZEMs and this should change.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343193

Your thread above was a good read!

With your suggested changes, I wonder if we'd see players more spread out across the world & be more willing to adventure outside the current highway.

Right now, it's hard to beat a place like Highkeep, with it's high ZEM, loot, vendors & banker all within the zone. Arrive around lvl 25, then never leave until 50, with a Santa Claus sized bag of plat.

Interesting to think about the potential shake up!

[bum3]

IMHO... get rid of current ZEM system. Instead, put all dungeons at base 90 and increase to 150 if full group. 90 if solo + 10 per additional group member with final slot giving +20 to make 150. Make all outside zones 85 and give +5 zem bonuses per additional group members with 6th slotting giving +10 for a total of 115. It's a group incentive game that was intended to reward grouping for harder content. I'm sure my method has been mentioned 10000x before.

[vossiewulf]

While we're thinking up stuff that won't happen, on My EQEmu Server(TM), for ZEM I would use it as a relatively gentle tide to move players about to various zones, tweaking it every two weeks so no one gets stuck with just one zone and one set of mobs being their best choice.

And while I was at it, I would make it entirely safe for players to combat mobs of light blue and above, but as the level separation increases there is an ever-increasing chance that a booming voice would suddenly say "THE GODS ARE DISGUSTED BY YOUR DISHONORABLE COMBAT, <PLAYER>" and a single lightning bolt would insta-kill said player. If it's a second offense, maybe the gods take an equipped item also.

The trigger test only occurs on offensive action of any kind against the low level mob, so if the high level player gets trained by low green mobs, they can safely get away if needed.

Voila, only appropriate-level players can farm anything, and there are already controls on number of accounts allowed. And so, as usual, all problems vanish in My Universe(TM).

[Wooted]

Rotational ZEMs would be kinda fun. Official progression servers had or maybe still have this(hot zones).

[Roth]

So this server was basically unclassic ZEMS which is why we're all piling into Guk and hhk.

[Doktoor]

That bump to HHK was way way late into the game. I’m pretty sure I was 60 on live. It’s not classic. It was to get lowbies to group.

[lordpazuzu]

Since we're armchair game dev'ing this, I'l just put all outdoor zones at 100 and all dungeons at 120 and call it a day.

[Rick Sanchez]

Enjoy your free game fellas

[bum3]

HHK.. the place to be from lvl 20 to 50.

[uygi]

Even in Live beta it was commonly known that dungeons had a bonus. It could have easily been a myth, though. Most things commonly known then were myths: You have to loot the old corpses to spawn more mobs; early invis breaks are caused by being out of food/water; Pristine Scarab Carapaces only drop if you kill with non-melee, otherwise it will crack; INT governs tradeskill skillups while WIS reduces failures, etc etc.