Severe penalty of hybrids exp is causing unintended shortage class of tanks!

[LittleJClove]

This problem should be recognized and addressed.

Just look at what class thread its very clearly paladin and shadow knight are at the bottom of the list, Ranger last... and warrior been extreme gear dependant are barely in the middle of the pack.

What do you guys think? The problem will only get worse as more people became aware of it.

[Bazia]

its very bad, I had to shelve my ROG exclusively because I got tired of backstabbing snared shit

[Jibartik]

Im just commenting to keep this one right next to the TOO MANY HYBRIDS post :o

[LittleJClove]

Thanks Jibartik!

[Cen]

Im leveling my cleric today instead to chill with my ranger, and man its night and day exp difference lol, all I have to do is poop on bixies for $$$$$ exp

[LittleJClove]

Paladin population maybe even lower than Ranger soon.

[Sizar]

This problem should be recognized and addressed.

Just look at what class thread its very clearly paladin and shadow knight are at the bottom of the list, Ranger last... and warrior been extreme gear dependant are barely in the middle of the pack.

What do you guys think? The problem will only get worse as more people became aware of it.

Not every group needs to be tank, healer, cc, 3x dps. Change it up and have a weird group of 6. My all time fav group for leveling in classic was 6 monks. Was insane and so fun. Change it up.

[LittleJClove]

Cen try Troll Shadow Knight, last night I saw an alarming OOC conversation from a troll SK, he plays 2 hours everyday with kids and wife and he only reached lvl 7 so far, and he had 2 lvl 60 character on blue.

[bum3]

It'll get better once the pet class only groups die down.

[Tecmos Deception]

its very bad, I had to shelve my ROG exclusively because I got tired of backstabbing snared shit

Teach your groups.

Roots, blinds, slows, these things all let someone other than the rogue tank (unless you don't even have a shaman or ranger or monk, let alone a tank, in which case go find one because those 5 classes ARE like 35% of the server).

[Tecmos Deception]

Cen try Troll Shadow Knight, last night I saw an alarming OOC conversation from a troll SK, he plays 2 hours everyday with kids and wife and he only reached lvl 7 so far, and he had 2 lvl 60 character on blue.

That's alarming? That playing for 10 hours is only 7 levels?

This isn't wow, kiddo. Everyone except the 5% powergamers took 10 hours to get to 7.

[LittleJClove]

BUM3: Unfortunately those casters mentality is They will not create a low exp hybrid.

[magusfire24]

Posts like this really make me think of trying to level a SK or Paladin. Someone should do it. I think SK since it can be soloed easier too and has good aggro with snares and dots

[LittleJClove]

Teach your groups.

Roots, blinds, slows, these things all let someone other than the rogue tank (unless you don't even have a shaman or ranger or monk, let alone a tank, in which case go find one because those 5 classes ARE like 35% of the server).

Unfortunately Ranger are barely 3% of the pop in the Green server.

Hybrids will soon be less than 9% combined.

[Lamil]

I've got like 20 hours and I'm lvl 9...

[putrid_plum]

This weeds out the weak and the true dedicated SKs will reap all the glory later.

[magusfire24]

This weeds out the weak and the true dedicated SKs will reap all the glory later.

[Bazia]

Teach your groups.

Roots, blinds, slows, these things all let someone other than the rogue tank (unless you don't even have a shaman or ranger or monk, let alone a tank, in which case go find one because those 5 classes ARE like 35% of the server).

I could but instead just rolled an ENC, done being inconvenienced for awhile :D

[LittleJClove]

Class Population Balance is the key just like in real life something too little or too much will cause chaos and problems.

[Jimjam]

While level 35 mages are complaining about how underpowered they are the serverfirst 20 sk only happened today.

[Ivory]

The problem is too many people trying to min/max for rugged individualism.... instead of playing a strong range of things that come together to create great classic groups.

Paladins and SKs are GREAATTT tanks (far better than warriors before 50...and even after it for normal leveling). Both of those classes get very low cost AMAZING agro spells (disease cloud is bananas).

Even a ranger in a group can do a TON to offheal and root for CC along with snare and pulling agro / tanking.

But if you are a paladin...in a group with a mage, an enchanter, a druid, and a wizard.....well.... it's going to be rough.

[Ligma]

People will play melee more when they can twink and PL

[skipdog]

But if you are a paladin...in a group with a mage, an enchanter, a druid, and a wizard.....well.... it's going to be rough.

Wait, what? What's gonna be rough? That's a great group.

I'm so confused.

[Leifer7inches]

It's tough being a tank on a fresh server. I think once the server matures and its easier to twink, then tanks will start showing up. It's tough tanking in CB with cloth, a cracked staff and wooden shield. For so many people extolling the challenge and difficulty of early EQ, and the fun of grouping, it is quite extraordinary how many players choose easy soloing and relatively higher powered classes to play.

[westarcher]

Yeah class penalties have always been a too harsh.
I know the intention is the equivalent of dnd multiclassing but yeah.
Racial penalties are good enough

[LittleJClove]

While level 35 mages are complaining about how underpowered they are the serverfirst 20 sk only happened today.

Another clear example less and less people plays SK.
The imbalance will only get worse.

I thought the DEV wants us to group, but NO tank to group with.

[zaneosak]

Problem isnt the hybrid XP, it's that Classic EQ does not require traditional tanks for most content except for dungeons (Unrest, UpperGuk, Mistmoore, etc.) And even then it is not always 100% necessary.

A Shaman can tank a slowed mob pretty well in a dungeon.

[Keza]

Yeah... right... don't you mean the severe shortage of gear, proc weapons and pallies not getting stun until like 29 is causing a lack of tanks? Even if they are in the group the only one holding aggro would be SKs who get their shit kicked in as much as anyone else without gear. It's a group effort to allow a warrior/pally to tank at low levels with roots and such, so if anyone is to blame it's the group.

Removing hybrid penalty is as likely to happen as them adding a /level60 command. Pre-kunark.

[Clang]

Part of the issue is that SKs suffer a bit in power until they get spells at level 9. I'm sure the other hybrids suffer in similar ways. Soloing is painfully slow until you get to that spot - even then I wouldn't call it fast. It just can be done.

Add in the XP penalty and it's very hard to get groups. People have some serious issues with grouping with hybrids - the penalty hate is very real! People that want to go fast don't want you in there group, period.

Now I made the choice of doing the Troll SK thing again - so I've got a bit of "extra" hate directed at me - but I do like the flexibility of soloing and the extra regen helps out.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

While level 35 mages are complaining about how underpowered they are the serverfirst 20 sk only happened today.

While everyone is so happy Mages got nerfed but don't seem to care that Enchanters outnumber Mages literally 2:1.

Have fun at max level when EVERY SINGLE ITEM CAMP is being duo/triod by Enchanter groups.

[Jimjam]

I'm not really happy 'mage got nerfed', just sick of complaints the timeline is being stuck to.

Besides which, enc is much more fun to share a group with.

Grouping with mage is like being grouped with a bad monk and a bad wizard all rolled into a single player slot.

[Bazia]

i can smell the lustrous already

[Jibartik]

Man an all brown shadow-knight with an eye-patch and a black 2h sword would look pretty bad a casting those disease clouds.

[LittleJClove]

I know thats why I am voicing the complaints of many who wants to create Hybrid but either feel very unfair of their penalty or gets hated on and be ignored to join group due to their penalties.

Address this issue dev pls.

[Jibartik]

Nah I think we're totally mature enough to handle it among the player base.

[LittleJClove]

Hybrid gets no love from group due to Experience penalty is real ISSUE. I thought dev is encourage grouping.

[Jibartik]

Dude mages only get pets up to level 20 then its summoning bags only. Think about that.

[Videri]

I’ve got good news and bad news.

The bad news: the goal of Project 1999 is not to create a good game. The goal is to recreate Everquest as it was from 1999-2001.

The good news: if you keep playing, keep seeking groups, and keep forming groups, you will reach max level and have a lot of fun along the way.

[Expediency]

Hard to imagine what original eq devs were thinking when they were designing the hybrid classes. Even with zero class penalty they arent great and penalizing people for grouping with you is madness.

[Bazia]

on red i've leveled like 3 hybrids with no groups because of population

just poopsock highkeep and you can solo on any of the 3 pretty well while you wait for groups

[Aaramis]

From what I recall, I brought this up during beta that the penalties should be removed. Casters already have a distinct advantage at start up, being able to go from 1-50 naked, while the melee have to gear up.

Response I got was "stfu, shit's classic".

Well I guess no tanks is classic too, eh?

[seanidor]

Yeah... right... don't you mean the severe shortage of gear, proc weapons and pallies not getting stun until like 29 is causing a lack of tanks? Even if they are in the group the only one holding aggro would be SKs who get their shit kicked in as much as anyone else without gear. It's a group effort to allow a warrior/pally to tank at low levels with roots and such, so if anyone is to blame it's the group.

Removing hybrid penalty is as likely to happen as them adding a /level60 command. Pre-kunark.

Pallies can use Flash of Light instead of stun at the lower levels. The only problem is that it should only be used when in melee range. If the mob can't reach you with it's fists then it will flip out almost like it's been feared. It's kind of a shame that blinding doesn't reduce a mobs chance to hit, that would be an awesome spell for tanking then.

[oldhead]

Part of the issue is that SKs suffer a bit in power until they get spells at level 9. I'm sure the other hybrids suffer in similar ways. Soloing is painfully slow until you get to that spot - even then I wouldn't call it fast. It just can be done.

Add in the XP penalty and it's very hard to get groups. People have some serious issues with grouping with hybrids - the penalty hate is very real! People that want to go fast don't want you in there group, period.

Now I made the choice of doing the Troll SK thing again - so I've got a bit of "extra" hate directed at me - but I do like the flexibility of soloing and the extra regen helps out.

IT is hated and deserved. That is a huge hit. I group with an SK and its so nice having him hold agro... but the exp was so slow it wasnt worth it.

There is a reason EQ fixed it so the penalty doesnt hurt the group and it only effects the player of the class.

[oldhead]

From what I recall, I brought this up during beta that the penalties should be removed. Casters already have a distinct advantage at start up, being able to go from 1-50 naked, while the melee have to gear up.

Response I got was "stfu, shit's classic".

Well I guess no tanks is classic too, eh?

Casters need to buy spells.. its the equiv of your gear up.

But yes, casters have a slight advantage at first.

[cd288]

Casters also have a 10% penalty

[skorge]

problem is a level 16 mage can summon a level 16 pet which outperforms a level 16 tank...

/thread

[Palemoon]

It's kind of a shame that blinding doesn't reduce a mobs chance to hit, that would be an awesome spell for tanking then.

But it does actually reduce a mobs attack.

[excalibur]

The problem is too many people trying to min/max for rugged individualism.... instead of playing a strong range of things that come together to create great classic groups.

Paladins and SKs are GREAATTT tanks (far better than warriors before 50...and even after it for normal leveling). Both of those classes get very low cost AMAZING agro spells (disease cloud is bananas).

Even a ranger in a group can do a TON to offheal and root for CC along with snare and pulling agro / tanking.

But if you are a paladin...in a group with a mage, an enchanter, a druid, and a wizard.....well.... it's going to be rough.

You must have only played with bad pallies if they cant hold aggro

[stewe]

Yeah... right... don't you mean the severe shortage of gear, proc weapons and pallies not getting stun until like 29 is causing a lack of tanks? Even if they are in the group the only one holding aggro would be SKs who get their shit kicked in as much as anyone else without gear. It's a group effort to allow a warrior/pally to tank at low levels with roots and such, so if anyone is to blame it's the group.

Removing hybrid penalty is as likely to happen as them adding a /level60 command. Pre-kunark.

another person that doesnt know much about pallies i see, paladins get one of their most used aggro spells at lvl 9 called flash of light, i can steal aggro from any SK without taunt and the other way around for SKs

[kaluppo]

I’ve got good news and bad news.

The bad news: the goal of Project 1999 is not to create a good game. The goal is to recreate Everquest as it was from 1999-2001.

The good news: if you keep playing, keep seeking groups, and keep forming groups, you will reach max level and have a lot of fun along the way.

What? That's Blasphemy!

:D

[oldhead]

problem is a level 16 mage can summon a level 16 pet which outperforms a level 16 tank...

/thread


So can necros

So can enchanters


Mages cant after level 20 so you must be happy about that

[Sweeper41]

Its good to know I'll be wanted once I choose to start tanking. Going to see how far I can solo as a paladin. Made it to 54 on blue.

[BlackBellamy]

I don't want to state the obvious that no one is forcing anyone to play a penalized class, but I do understand the desire. However, if you want to play one make sure you're playing with friends or with a good guild or that you're very witty or very skilled. We can argue about the ancient reasons for it, but it's moot because there it is and it's staying here. Low hybrid numbers will absolutely not get Rogean to change his mind about providing the timeline he wants to provide.

Also, market forces will work eventually. If certain classes are needed, people will create incentives for others to play them. If they are just boutique vanity classes, then not so much.

[Cyph]

This is classic.

If you don't like, go to Blue.

[Graventhel]

Here I am having the time of my life on my SK just trying to scrape by.

[Jimjam]

So can necros

So can enchanters


Mages cant after level 20 so you must be happy about that

I think mages can still summon a pet that outperforms a 16 warrior after 20 :p.

[Deathrydar]

As a rogue, you need a tank to backstab. With no tanks, there are no rogues. This population is silly.

[Tuljin]

Am I giving away trade secrets by saying you can use root to keep agro on a warrior tank and have everyone else auto at max melee range? That involves a cleric doing more than sitting on their ass and griming Shralok packs though. You won't have a warrior in group without a cleric or other priest.

Also Warriors don't need to buy spells and there are plenty of people making banded armor at this point. That AC makes an incredible difference in tanking abilities and it is nowhere near unattainable.

SK and Paladin get their snap agro spells at level 9 and they are incredibly effective. People playing the long game will roll these classes, not care about the XP penalty and have fun, and when planes come they will get great loot with little trouble.

Also...whats wrong with snare/fear kiting as a rogue??? Its not lack of tanks that cause a rogue shortage, its the fact that you can't post up "LFG King/Crypt" anymore and plvl to 60 to batphone for dragon phats

[Glarkus31]

Still love playing a Paladin... maybe I am a glutton for punishment.

Now.. if I could just get some time to play. =)

[Benanov]

I've been tanking quite a bit in my groups.

Class in signature.

[Lamil]

Shocker: people need to be aware and let tanks establish aggro even at lvl 9. The amount of nuking on incoming and just lack of general awareness is pretty amazing but I'm still having a great time.

[Deathrydar]

Shocker: people need to be aware and let tanks establish aggro even at lvl 9. The amount of nuking on incoming and just lack of general awareness is pretty amazing but I'm still having a great time.

It's a WoW mentality. There is no need to wait for tank to get aggro in WoW.

[Leifer7inches]

Casters need to buy spells.. its the equiv of your gear up.

But yes, casters have a slight advantage at first.


Melee can't buy appropriate level gear off a vendor next to their guildmaster - and at relatively much cheaper costs than a melee would have to pay in EC.

[Jimjam]

I mean for the first dozen levels they can.

Most people will buy an axe/rapier at level 3 then a two handed sword / bastard sword / spear at 6 then a combine weapon at 12.

There are vendor bought leathers and other armours that resell decently. Hey at least melee get to resell their vendor boughts, instead of having them waste spell book pages!

Lets pity hybrids who have to buy melee gear and spells. At least they have that xp penalty alowing them down so they have more time to save up ��.

[Tuljin]

It's a WoW mentality. There is no need to wait for tank to get aggro in WoW.

"The WoW mentality" has been a big problem on P99 that has manifested itself in many ways for quite some time my dude hahaha =)

[LittleJClove]

As a rogue, you need a tank to backstab. With no tanks, there are no rogues. This population is silly.

Great point about Rogue will be useless without a tank!
And all hybrid tank are battling the lowest population on the server!
Warrior barely in the middle of the pop.

[Deathrydar]

Great point about Rogue will be useless without a tank!
And all hybrid tank are battling the lowest population on the server!
Warrior barely in the middle of the pop.

Catch 22. The cancer of this server do not take hybrids into their group, which means hybrids cannot level, which means there won't be any rogues.

[mattydef]

The problem is too many people trying to min/max for rugged individualism.... instead of playing a strong range of things that come together to create great classic groups.

Paladins and SKs are GREAATTT tanks (far better than warriors before 50...and even after it for normal leveling). Both of those classes get very low cost AMAZING agro spells (disease cloud is bananas).

Even a ranger in a group can do a TON to offheal and root for CC along with snare and pulling agro / tanking.

But if you are a paladin...in a group with a mage, an enchanter, a druid, and a wizard.....well.... it's going to be rough.

I'm a little confused with your last sentence. A paladin can off heal better than a ranger, root just like them and hold agro just as well as an SK.

[Benanov]

Great point about Rogue will be useless without a tank!
And all hybrid tank are battling the lowest population on the server!
Warrior barely in the middle of the pop.

Yeah rogues can't really fight too well off of pets...but I saw ean earlier posting railing against fear-kiting.

Rogues should love fear-kiting. Aggro management goes away for the most part and mob positioning gets stupid easy. You can basically mash backstab until fear wears off - and keep mashing Intimidation / Instill Doubt, in case your kick actually lands and you extend the fear.

But hey, if you want to bitch that you have to run away after a fleeing mob, that's your problem.

I was once in a fear-kiting group with 3 rogues. It was glorious.

[Khorza]

Teach your groups.

Lul

I can't even get the cleric to tell me how much mana he has or get the Mage to summon his pet daggers so he can do damage to the ghouls I'm pulling.

[Copout]

Ranger tanks are indistinguishable from any other tank. If you aren't regarding them as a dedicated tank class right now then you're doing yourself a disservice.

[Roth]

Shocker: people need to be aware and let tanks establish aggro even at lvl 9. The amount of nuking on incoming and just lack of general awareness is pretty amazing but I'm still having a great time.

I'm gonna present the sad reality that I've realized here - if you have a 15 shaman, and a 15 warrior, it's simply easier to just let the shaman tank with drowsy. It gets way better agro and they can tank almost as well in banded. That's just the mechanics of the game.

Also as mentioned, clerics tank fine also.

[TheRusty]

I'm gonna present the sad reality that I've realized here - if you have a 15 shaman, and a 15 warrior, it's simply easier to just let the shaman tank with drowsy. It gets way better agro and they can tank almost as well in banded. That's just the mechanics of the game.

Also as mentioned, clerics tank fine also.

That's not a "sad reality." That's just how the game has always functioned. The "sad reality" would be if groups were forced to be idle while they wait for the least common class to appear in level range and want to group with them. You know, like in Velious.

[Deathrydar]

That's not a "sad reality." That's just how the game has always functioned. The "sad reality" would be if groups were forced to be idle while they wait for the least common class to appear in level range and want to group with them. You know, like in Velious.

They wouldn't be the least common class if people would get their panties out of a bunch about the experience penalty.

[TheRusty]

They wouldn't be the least common class if people would get their panties out of a bunch about the experience penalty.

I think it has more to do with their gear dependence. At a bare minimum a melee class requires the 80+ plat investment of banded armor. Where's that going to come from? Gotta have a higher-level caster class to farm the money or drops for that.

[Deathrydar]

I think it has more to do with their gear dependence. At a bare minimum a melee class requires the 80+ plat investment of banded armor. Where's that going to come from? Gotta have a higher-level caster class to farm the money or drops for that.

That's the easy way, sure. But nothing that is worth is comes easy and no one did that back in 1999.

[Snagglepuss]

My SK is brutal to level on green. The exp loss on death is painful too. Even at level 9 there's a certain feeling of accomplishment. There's definitely gonna be some respect given when you see a 50 hybrid.

Once more platinum enters the economy and gear starts flowing (class specific weapons such as Ebony Bladed Sword too and rotting no drops, e.g. painbringer), you'll see all these mages and shamans farming some guards / hill giants to twink out their new warriors and paladins with PGTs and banded / bronze. At least that's how a lot of people approached blue. Plenty of tanks in the future.

[cd288]

They wouldn't be the least common class if people would get their panties out of a bunch about the experience penalty.

Are we talking about Warriors here?

[Clang]

The problem with "classic" is it isn't classic. As much as we might try to re-create the experience, this isn't 1999 and we aren't naive about the Everquest experience. We know *every* class, quest, statistic, and expansion that is to come.

In 1999, although we knew there was some kind of penalty for hybrids - people were fine inviting them to the group as a tank. People were naive enough to think that these classes were offset with sufficient bonuses so the penalty wasn't a big deal. And as tanks these classes were fine, it wasn't until Kunark that warriors really came into there own.

The real "stigma" these classes started to carry later on for the experience penalty became part of a larger internal debate about class balance within the community and Everquest developers to re balance the classes - and remove penalties which eventually happened.

That's the real problem. As much as we strive for the "classic" experience. We aren't going to get it anymore - because of the knowledge we have of the game and that attitudes that generates. When I said that there was real *hate* about my Troll/SK in groups - I'm not kidding. But that *hate* isn't classic. That *hate* is about a penalty and a stigma that didn't exist in 1999 (or 2000 for that matter).

Anyways, I'm not going to really argue for the removal of the penalty until the "correct" time on the timeline. But I will argue that the penalty and the attitudes have regarding it at this point are not classic at all.

[Deathrydar]

But I will argue that the penalty and the attitudes have regarding it at this point are not classic at all.

[cd288]

Warriors were actually great at launch, subsequently nerfed, and then came back into their own again in Kunark

[TheRusty]

That's the easy way, sure. But nothing that is worth is comes easy and no one did that back in 1999.

Yeah, because in 1999 there wasn't 20 years of know-how. No matter how hard we try, the best we'll ever have is pseudo-classic, because we're all sitting on that bank of knowledge that we didn't have when we were 15 years old. And what we know is that a warrior wearing cloth armor and swinging a rusty two-handed hammer isn't gonna cut it. What we know is that you gotta have money to tank.

[Deathrydar]

Yeah, because in 1999 there wasn't 20 years of know-how. No matter how hard we try, the best we'll ever have is pseudo-classic, because we're all sitting on that bank of knowledge that we didn't have when we were 15 years old. And what we know is that a warrior wearing cloth armor and swinging a rusty two-handed hammer isn't gonna cut it. What we know is that you gotta have money to tank.

I hear ya. And what you are saying is 100% accurate. I just don't like it! :p

[Wurl]

I think it has more to do with their gear dependence. At a bare minimum a melee class requires the 80+ plat investment of banded armor. Where's that going to come from? Gotta have a higher-level caster class to farm the money or drops for that.
I had the money for a full set of large banded by level 9.

[Copout]

I think it has more to do with their gear dependence. At a bare minimum a melee class requires the 80+ plat investment of banded armor. Where's that going to come from? Gotta have a higher-level caster class to farm the money or drops for that.
You don't need banded to tank crushbone.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

I'm gonna present the sad reality that I've realized here - if you have a 15 shaman, and a 15 warrior, it's simply easier to just let the shaman tank with drowsy. It gets way better agro and they can tank almost as well in banded. That's just the mechanics of the game.

Also as mentioned, clerics tank fine also.

The reason NOT to do this however is that your Casters should be sitting down and medding so they're not coming constantly OOM.

[jacob54311]

This problem should be recognized and addressed.

Just look at what class thread its very clearly paladin and shadow knight are at the bottom of the list, Ranger last... and warrior been extreme gear dependant are barely in the middle of the pack.

What do you guys think? The problem will only get worse as more people became aware of it.

I love the concept of a classic server, but I'd be OK with it if they fudged a few things, like getting rid of stuff that really, really sucked a little sooner than they actually were removed, such as the severe xp penalty on hybrids.