Love Aspects but I can see why.

[Kittik]

I love aspects of this game. The effort it requires and work (i.e. ability to mindlessly watch your sprite melee attack another sprite, or having to run to town after killing 6 mobs to sell, or having to sit for 4, 5 mins to meditate after two pulls) and to me this pain of dullness is over-ridden by the joy of getting that next level.

However, due to the sheer lack of QoL features that are solely QoL and not game cheats (Teleports everywhere, Auction houses) I can see why this game was curb stomped by WoW.

Green could have released with some QoL features that didn't change the nature of the game. The nature of this game is that it is not forgiving and it takes dedication. Adding a UI skin wouldn't affect that. Adding separation of /ran from zone wide to group only wouldn't affect that. Adding QoL features that enhance the feeling of being able to play the game yet still allowing the game itself to shine wouldn't be a bad thing.

I love the "FU" attitude of EQ. But because the UI is trash, the ability to play me in the world is un-intuitive the game of EQ is diminished because, although the world wants to kill me (which is fine) it also feels the game doesn't want me to play. (Not fine)

[Baler]

Evercrack
The dopamine you get by succeeding in everquest classic keep you wanting to come back.
Because classic eq is hard the thought and thrill of succeeding gives a bigger longer dose of dopamine.
This is why modern games that reward with instant gratification pale in comparison.

The lack of QoL features increases the risk and therefore the reward your mind places on tasks that would otherwise be simplified with a few QoL changes.

[Baler]

Wow classic was difficult and lacked a ton of QoL features aswell though.

[zodium]

get out

[Cuktus]

EQ features what one youtuber called "hostile world". This is what makes EQ(in my mind, anyways) so great compared to many other games. Corpse runs, finding ports, losing a spell level on death, random dude on a random faction mercing you as you get off a boat, this is wonderful game design. Now, if you will excuse me.

"Loading... Please wait....." Oh yeah... hurt me more....

[Roth]

I get your main message, but then you use lack of TELEPORTS and auction houses as the reason eq failed? Just leave this server will never be for you.

[Vivix]

You are clueless if you think teleports and auction houses are simply QoL.

[magusfire24]

built in Teleports ruin Druids and Wizards . Better to have players rely on them so their spells are actually useful and sought out. Some reward for getting to high levels.

[Jibartik]

Wow didn't curb stomp EQ in terms of sales because it's better, it curbstomped EQ in terms of sales because people are dumb. :o

[Gustoo]

Confirmed people dumb. Eq hardness wi be a niche for psychopaths always.

[Baler]

Confirmed people dumb. Eq hardness wi be a niche for psychopaths always.

You should hear some of the people who still pvp on UO. Psycho :o

[cd288]

I love aspects of this game. The effort it requires and work (i.e. ability to mindlessly watch your sprite melee attack another sprite, or having to run to town after killing 6 mobs to sell, or having to sit for 4, 5 mins to meditate after two pulls) and to me this pain of dullness is over-ridden by the joy of getting that next level.

However, due to the sheer lack of QoL features that are solely QoL and not game cheats (Teleports everywhere, Auction houses) I can see why this game was curb stomped by WoW.

Green could have released with some QoL features that didn't change the nature of the game. The nature of this game is that it is not forgiving and it takes dedication. Adding a UI skin wouldn't affect that. Adding separation of /ran from zone wide to group only wouldn't affect that. Adding QoL features that enhance the feeling of being able to play the game yet still allowing the game itself to shine wouldn't be a bad thing.

I love the "FU" attitude of EQ. But because the UI is trash, the ability to play me in the world is un-intuitive the game of EQ is diminished because, although the world wants to kill me (which is fine) it also feels the game doesn't want me to play. (Not fine)

By /ran do you mean /random or /rand? If so, that's not zone wide at all lol, it's within a very limited distance. Limiting it to group only? And what happens on a raid when no one can see who is rolling what because there are multiple groups?

[Frug]

You are clueless if you think teleports and auction houses are simply QoL.

It was confusingly written, but I think he meant THOSE things /were/ game changing.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Wow classic was difficult and lacked a ton of QoL features aswell though.

Lacking QOL features compared to modern MMOs sure, but certainly not compared to the MMOs that were contemporary to Vanilla WOW's release era.

[Jibartik]

"People keep steeling my camp, lets steel this game design and make it easy."

-wow designers

[Kittik]

I get your main message, but then you use lack of TELEPORTS and auction houses as the reason eq failed? Just leave this server will never be for you.

No I wasn't. I'm saying things like Teleports are a QoL feature that many people claim it is, I consider a game ruining Cheat. Same with Auction Houses.

[Kittik]

You are clueless if you think teleports and auction houses are simply QoL.

They are and they ruin games.

[Kittik]

Wow didn't curb stomp EQ in terms of sales because it's better, it curbstomped EQ in terms of sales because people are dumb. :o

Ture. But people don't like their eyes to bleed, so...

I've said it somewhere before and I'll say it again. If you had EQ (EQ Green even) and give it a brand new Graphics engine (not even brand new, you could use EQ2 graphics engine) and a UI that didn't make me want to kick puppies, you'd have a game that would have a million subscriptions.

[Jibartik]

Ture. But people don't like their eyes to bleed, so...

When Tunare is your mom.

https://i.imgur.com/oiifnQh.gif

[Mblake81]

Ture. But people don't like their eyes to bleed, so...

I've said it somewhere before and I'll say it again. If you had EQ (EQ Green even) and give it a brand new Graphics engine (not even brand new, you could use EQ2 graphics engine) and a UI that didn't make me want to kick puppies, you'd have a game that would have a million subscriptions.

Why the need for a million subs. Everything is judged by console and mobile titles.. and kids consider a game on PC dead if it doesn't have some number of players pulled from their bottoms. Mass appeal doesn't mean something is good, no in fact what it can mean is Diablo 3. If you are basing "goodness" on numbers consider Pop artist music. Having said this, some older guys out there are reading this and wouldn't piss on me if I was fire. Diablo is not that well regarded, EQ is considered one of the popular games that started the move towards Games as a Service models. Personally I see an MMORPG like EQ being its own thing but that doesn't stop others with a more business minded approach seeing it as yet another thing "idiots will pay for", then whatever spark was there that ignited the interest will be removed and replaced with more gimmicks. QoL is a gimmick.

[Kittik]

Why the need for a million subs. Everything is judged by console and mobile titles.. and kids consider a game on PC dead if it doesn't have some number of players pulled from their bottoms. Mass appeal doesn't mean something is good, no in fact what it can mean is Diablo 3. If you are basing "goodness" on numbers consider Pop artist music. Having said this, some older guys out there are reading this and wouldn't piss on me if I was fire. Diablo is not that well regarded, EQ is considered one of the popular games that started the move towards Games as a Service models. Personally I see an MMORPG like EQ being its own thing but that doesn't stop others with a more business minded approach seeing it as yet another thing "idiots will pay for", then whatever spark was there that ignited the interest will be removed and replaced with more gimmicks. QoL is a gimmick.

If EQ had 10 Million subs and WoW had 100K, who do you think everyone would have copied? And instead of having 1000 shitty WoW clones out there today we'd have 1000 EQ clones.

So yes, number of subs is important.

[Ivory]

When Tunare is your mom.

https://i.imgur.com/oiifnQh.gif

heehee

[Mblake81]

If EQ had 10 Million subs and WoW had 100K, who do you think everyone would have copied? And instead of having 1000 shitty WoW clones out there today we'd have 1000 EQ clones.

So yes, number of subs is important.

Would EQ be what it is by adding more QoL in order to gain the 10 million subs or would we be shitting on all of the EQ clones now because they copied something that sucked?

[Ligma]

This server is meant to recreate the original game. All the QoL things you seek are in the modern game. And for the most part were when WoW released.

[lordpazuzu]

Wow classic was difficult and lacked a ton of QoL features aswell though.

Say what?

[ZiggyTheMuss]

"People keep steeling my camp, lets steel this game design and make it easy."

-wow designers

EQ is by far the superior game IMO, like many of us agree I am sure. The people who made WoW though were like us. They were hardcore fans of EQ/former EQ players. They recognized how to appeal to the masses of course and took out what didn't work and left what did work.

The modern gamer is a casual (and more healthy) one who does not have the time to raid for 12 hours a day or whatever. They are also "less skilled" due to all of the crutches that modern games provide but who gives a fuck about skill in a video game. We are here to have fun.

[cd288]

Ture. But people don't like their eyes to bleed, so...

I've said it somewhere before and I'll say it again. If you had EQ (EQ Green even) and give it a brand new Graphics engine (not even brand new, you could use EQ2 graphics engine) and a UI that didn't make me want to kick puppies, you'd have a game that would have a million subscriptions.

No...you really wouldn’t. Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love EQ as much as the next person but if you just cloned this game, updated the graphics, and tried to release it today you wouldn’t come close to seven figures for subscribers on any consistent basis. You might hit seven figures in the first like month after launch because the MMO player base will try anything that comes out because it’s a dead industry, but so many would quickly move on.

EQ’s clunky, and sometimes dumb, needlessly draconian, and/or pointless, mechanics are certainly not something that would achieve mainstream seven figure subscriber count success in 2019.

[Vokhine]

@OP litteraly play any other cookie cutter mmo on the market. Please let p99 be p99.

[Cyph]

Classic.

Emulated server.

Wish all you want, but it is what it is.

Now go get wrecked by a willowisp or back up your bags.

[LiQuid]

Not really having an issue with most of the removed QoL features on Green so far but holy good god damn is it INFURIATING having to manually press the meditate button everytime I sit to get mana back. Yes I understand back in the day we had to deal with the spellbook interface covering up the entire game and yes I'm glad we don't have to deal with that (thx Titanium client!), but I do agree with OP insofar as a lot of these really godawful design decisions were very quickly realized to be horrific mistakes and patched out. Slavishly sticking to these old awful design decisions in service of the gimmick of following the patch order and thus making us have to suffer thru them for a few months before they are "fixed" in a patch is pretty irritating

[TheRusty]

Wow didn't curb stomp EQ in terms of sales because it's better, it curbstomped EQ in terms of sales because people are dumb. :o

Specifically, the people who were given product manager and marketing positions in Sony online Entertainment.

"Let's make a game that will compete with our own flagship, and release it half-developed so that it will be out in time to contest this other company's product that is also competing against our flagship!"

"I don't know boss, that sounds risky. How will it work?"

"Simple, we'll just let Blizzard spend all their money on saturating the advertising uncontested!"

"Genius!"

"I know!"

[Kittik]

Would EQ be what it is by adding more QoL in order to gain the 10 million subs or would we be shitting on all of the EQ clones now because they copied something that sucked?

Well obviously we'd be shitting on the clones. It's what we do as gamers. It's part of our pedigree. However, I'd be happier with a world of EQ clones than WoW clones.

[Mblake81]

However, I'd be happier with a world of EQ clones than WoW clones.

Why?

[Kittik]

Because I believe EQ had a better overall design and course. So if it were all EQ clones, the new market of games would adhere closer to EQ's original design than what they all do with WoW's. If EQ had been the big boy, game design would have been completely different than it is now and games requiring socializing, grouping, painful death mechanics would be flooding the market today rather than MMO's that are solo play, with quest markers and instantly transporting harvested materials to your bank...AH, Teleports....bullcrap.

So in an alternate universe somewhere EQ was the big boy and all those people are having a better gaming life than us.

[Mblake81]

You could argue WoW is a clone of EQ. Powerslave (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV22HetrGlM), Heretic, Hexen are all clones of Doom. People looked to solve the issues with EQ, which was very popular for its day. They found the improvements in WoW, which removed some of the things you listed. It became even more popular and broke all of EQ's records, ended the MMORPG genre and still sits on top.

So the clone added more QoL and thus gained far more subscribers, which takes me back to my earlier question of why a million subs matter. We can see what it took to gain that. WoW was created because EQ was a success. The EQ clone WoW got more market share because it "improved" the game with better QoL, which are things you listed as why you hate them. But you also mentioned earlier that if EQ had done this first then games would be like EQ. You do realize that the things like corpse runs etc would have been removed to do that right? and the clones of EQ would be based off of that and not the original hardcore experience that wasn't hardcore at the time.. it was just the way games were and only later when things like WoW released was it considered hardcore because you could now compare it.

Edit: If anything, not having WoW ever be created could have resulted in less people coming over to computers. If you wish to take this route I can agree with you as there wouldn't be people asking for these things in their MMORPG game design. But remember WOW was created with improving the EQ experience and would probably happen again. Even here on the boards you have people unhappy with some aspects of Green, like the UI. So someone might've created a game with a better UI etc.. it would probably go down the same road. "EQ is amazing, nothing else like it.. but it needs to be improved."

I would take a ToddFX graphics upgrade but that is about it. Sound is not really an option these days. I also wouldn't look for it to have 10 million subscribers. Just another passion project done.. because. Gamers these days don't want what EQ offers because the games have changed, so much that something like EQ is seen as "Hardcore". I am joking but some of them ask for a Games Journalist mode, because they don't want to play it. Then we get into a Life Philosophy argument about what is fun and what are games.

[Ligma]

WoW won because of marketing dollars and name recognition. EQ doesn't even come into the picture because only a tiny fraction of players even came from or knew about EQ. It peaked at like 250k subs.

Most QOL things were in EQ by the time WoW was released, the guild lobby was released like 3 months after WoW. The high end EQ base was tired of unfinished releases..WoW was released in an era designed for lvl 70s with solos speed rape and group dungeons required for progression that needed war, cler, chanter, chanter with 2k hitting charm pets to carry people through.

Casuals were tired of it because PoP locked them out of most content and GoD did the same

[Mblake81]

^ I didn't play past Luclin, only briefly came back during LDoN, so I didn't take any of that into consideration. Ignore my earlier comment, I was mainly wanting to argue with him for forumquesting.

Anyway, It makes me frown when a game that had 250K subs is considered tiny on computer. The internet wasn't cool yet, social media hadn't hit yet, and computer capable of gaming was niche at best. On top of that how many of them would be interested in a game like EQ.

[Jimjam]

What killed live for me was it got to the point where you needed raid gear to have a chance at being able to tank entry tier content to a new expansion.

I don't know what caused this, but something was very sick in the beta testing for new expacs. Missions were dropping no trade gear that was significantly worse than what you had to have equipped to even avoid being 1 rounded.

[Voland]

I think EQ was approaching 500k in it's peak. I can't prove it now, the old site that used to track MMO population ("MMO charts" or something) seems to be gone.

Also, according to the site below, WoW is not as dominating as it once was:
https://mmo-population.com

[Frug]

I think EQ was approaching 500k in it's peak. I can't prove it now, the old site that used to track MMO population ("MMO charts" or something) seems to be gone.

Also, according to the site below, WoW is not as dominating as it once was:
https://mmo-population.com

That site shows Pantheon (barely in Alpha stage still?) showing 20k players. Something's amiss.

[cd288]

That site shows Pantheon (barely in Alpha stage still?) showing 20k players. Something's amiss.

Not speaking to the site's accuracy, but Brad said that EQ peaked around 550k (back in Luclin/PoP days I believe).

[Frug]

Not speaking to the site's accuracy, but Brad said that EQ peaked around 550k (back in Luclin/PoP days I believe).

I recall similar numbers before they started masking them out, a month before DAOC went live. And I think I know the article being referred to that shows growth curves of MMOs of the day.

[jacob54311]

I get your main message, but then you use lack of TELEPORTS and auction houses as the reason eq failed? Just leave this server will never be for you.

Especially since these things were in the game for years before WoW came out.