Potential Bug with No Manastones Dropping

[turbosilk]

Our groups had EE kills for manastones in beta and in talking with others that got manastones in green beta the drop rate was around 25%.


We've been killing the EE on green live using 1+ groups and have 14 kills with no manastone. At what sample size would it be reasonable to confirm the drops in green live are working as intended and not bugged?

We've confirmed that other list gear, jboots, dropped without using the /list.

[Erati]

Report back after 50 and 100 kills.

[Videri]

I am not a statistician, but I highly doubt that there were enough kills on beta to constitute a significant sample size. Not even close. I doubt the drop chance is 25%.

If the drop chance is 5%, the chance of no manastone in 14 kills is 48.77%.
If the drop chance is 10%, the chance of no manastone in 14 kills is 22.88%.
If the drop chance is 15%, the chance of no manastone in 14 kills is 10.28%.
If the drop chance is 20%, the chance of no manastone in 14 kills is 4.4%.

So depending on what the drop chance actually is (does anyone know?), there is a strong enough chance that it’s dropping normally and your luck has been bad.

Can I have a bag?

[Daldaen]

Most classic mobs drop their common 75% of the time and their rare 25% of the time. Some may lean more 80/20 some more 60/40 in the data, but 75/25 is a safe bet when it comes to classic EverQuest.

Manastone is something that existed so briefly when the game wasn’t very populated at the higher end, it’s impossible to find in era sources especially for something like drop rates.

I hope the devs just tried to follow other classic examples and put it at 25% chance.

[Videri]

If the drop chance is 25%, the chance of no manastone dropping in 14 kills is 1.78%.

Am I doing this right?
If chance of no stone in 1 kill = 75%
Chance of no stone in 2 kills = 75% x 75% = 56.25%
Chance of no stone in 3 kills =75% x 75% x 75% = 42.1875%
And so on

[turbosilk]

If the drop chance is 25%, the chance of no manastone dropping in 14 kills is 1.78%.

Am I doing this right?
If chance of no stone in 1 kill = 75%
Chance of no stone in 2 kills = 75% x 75% = 56.25%
Chance of no stone in 3 kills =75% x 75% x 75% = 42.1875%
And so on

Thank you for your input Videri. Based off the formula I found online it looks like your calculations are correct using 1-((1-x)^y).

[Videri]

Any rogues in the group? *sniffs the air for Borgnach*

[turbosilk]

Not yet. They don't want to eat the exp losses from deaths.

[Sahazar]

15/15 Bags

[Sahazar]

16 bags, no stone

[Sahazar]

17 now

[Sahazar]

18/18

[turbosilk]

Not bugged. Dropped on kill #19

[Sahazar]

Move to resolved!

[Videri]

Good job, guys. I didn't know if you
*puts on sunglasses*
had the stones.

[Kubaton]

1999 ON Solusek Ro - the Manastone was the common drop , the bag was the rare.

True story.

[Daldaen]

While it does indeed drop it sounds like the drop rate is around 5% from those who have camped it thus far.

This doesn’t jive with the typical classic common/rare break down for named mobs. If you go through most Named in classic in dungeons, most break down to around 75% common and 25% rare roughly.

Evil eye’s drop table should likely follow this break down as well.

Regarding the above poster suggesting Manastone was the common drop, I have no idea if this is correct. The fungus tunic was common for a period so it’s possible but there’s very little in-era information about Manastone drop rates available. I’ve only found one or two sources that say bags is common and Stone is rare. Haven’t seen anything to suggest the opposite.

However the rareness still sounds off with the stones dropping thus far taking 15+ Eye kills. They, like every other common/rare configuration from classic EQ should be seen 1/4 kills roughly.

[turbosilk]

Is there any proof of drop rates one way or the other?

[Albane]

Does EE spawn every time, or is there a placeholder? I recall the Manastone being very rare on Red, something like 1/10 kills.

[turbosilk]

There is a PH. So far its roughly between 1/15 and 1/20 kills of EE.

[Daldaen]

Is there any proof of drop rates one way or the other?

I’ve not seen anything to indicate exact drop rates. Just that the bag was the common and the Manastone was the rare.

If you check Magelo drop rates for every classic named mob with a two item common/rare loot table the spread is generally 20-40% Rare and 60-80% Common drops. The Manastone seems to be artificially rare compared to the rest of the comparable drops in vanilla EverQuest and should be adjusted accordingly.

[Baler]

23 list hours for my manastone and an unusually high number of PH frog spawns.

[Jeni]

If you are farming both servers at the same time like I am currently the % drop rate is actually right inline with classic values .

[turbosilk]

No need to troll here. I've been the only person camping EE on teal for the last 3 hours.

[Telin]

We need more substantial evidence to consider any changes.

[Sunderfury]

Started looking into this, first hit thus far, can edit as more is discovered:
1/23/00: (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/manastone|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/2EnpGkrDB70/4LQJab6xvigJ)
that is the type of thing they are trying to stop.....
its such an overpowered item its pathetic...it makes the people who own one
soo powerfull that others are willing to spen hours upon hours getting that
one item just to have it....
it is getting to the point that you arent a good caster without it...you need
it to keep up with others who have it....and so everyone camps for countless
hours just to get one..... and really..... is it *that* much fun to camp for
20+hours.... they are trying to make the game more balanced and fun....
I'm sure many people right now would pay 3000p or camp for 20 hours for
like some people said they did for their old Manastones

Mention here of a severely nerfed drop rate 'a few patches ago', not sure of exact date stone was removed.
11/9/99: (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/sxg3vw2dHpE/X_AjS1a5QgQJ;context-place=searchin/alt.games.everquest/manastone$20camp%7Csort:date)
The Bag of Tinkerers now holds extra large items, as of two patches ago.
Additionally, although I am not sure about the box (conflicting reports...it
may now be very rare, or it may have been removed altogether), I do know
manastones are still dropping. However, the drop rate has been nerfed
*badly*; expect no more than a couple per day of camping.

11/23/99: (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/RigLyTdxnFU/99DLRAyw2c0J;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest)
From the EQ_Clerics site..
http://www.kmrcs.com/eqcleric/

Last weekend I received a reply from GZ on a few questions I asked him. To
paraphrase:

a.. Manastones have been removed from the drop table and will return as a quest (I
did not ask him when).
b.. The conversion rate on Manastones is 60 Hit Points for 20 Mana (not the widely
reported 60-30).
manastone isnt gone. its just so F___KING rare now because poor and unplanned
verant finally realized how badly necros can take advantage of them (skilled 50
necros that can utilize their manastones can solo some of the toughest MOB's
such as ice giants and ambassadors and vampires in MM and also the frenzied
ghoul and most of the other named ghouls in lower guk )

8/31/99: (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/alt.games.everquest/ZRw0HlS4Dgg/hK2yRUbr8-QJ;context-place=forum/alt.games.everquest)
Manastone is dropped by an Evil eye in lower guk. the common drop on
this eye is the bag of sewn evil eye, rare drop is the manastone.

10/6/99: (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/%22mana$20stone%22|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/hhtRMxiPuHU/Zynh05QWJiAJ)
My suggestion would be to head down to Lower Guk and find people
camping the eye and ask them if you can have a bag when it drops.
Most of the people there are for the manastone, and by the time
anyone is done with a camping session, let alone the four or five
that's frequently necessary to get the stone, they have more bags
than they know what to do with. When we were camping the stone we
would typically just /shout that we had yet another bag and it was
up for grabs if someone could come get it before the corpse decayed.

10/20/99: (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/%22evil$20eye%22$20guk|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/IgocJfmfV_c/4YkGk0ctJ7QJ)
Dear Brad, Verant, John, anyone :)
Is the stoppage of manastone spawn (1) a bug? (2) an
intentional change? (3) a temporary change? Since Wednesday the 13ths
patch nobody on any server that I have friends on has seen a manastone
drop off the Evil Eye in live side lower Guk. I personally camped the
EE for 24 real-time hours, going through 30+ evil eyes (not including
placeholders) and not one single stone was dropped. Everyone I've
talked to has said for the longest time the ratio is about 1 in 8.
Would somebody address this situation, because manastones at my level
(46) are very necessary. And by stopping the spawn, be it voluntary or
bug you encourage those who've camped and harvested and now allow them
to reap insane rewards and punish those who just never got the chance
to adventure and get the item.

12/1/99: (https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/%22evil$20eye%22$20guk|sort:date/alt.games.everquest/HIcEvb7lmbQ/A9J5_4QQSEgJ)
Manastones still occasionally spawn on the Evil Eye in Lower Guk. A group
got one the other day while we were down there.

Some spawn rate mentions:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=2365&p=1#comments
Jul 15 2001
All you have to do is sit on the lil island in the middle of the water. I could take this solo at level fourty or so. A group could easily take at thirty-five. Place holder is a froggy shaman with pet (if you let him summon it). Bag always drops. EE spawn is pretty common...Maybe two or three frogs before it spawns. Around a seventeen minute spawntime I believe.
Sep 25 2001
The eye itself is rather easy, getting to the spawn is harder than the eye itself. If not done properly a host of green mobs can be a rather frustrating end to your journey. These green mobs can grow like ants on a piece of dried fruit. Dont recall what lvl i did this at again but maybe around the low forties and the mino's loved to gang lynch, but after getting to the spawn every eye dropped the bag with maybe a 15 or 20 minute spawn rate. Everyone left with a bag and a few others who were there did also
Oct 23 2001
I took this guy out yesterday. 1 35 bard 1 45 pally and a 40 shadow knight! the spawn time was 29 minutes exactly(give or take a few seconds)we all 3 got bags the ee always drops them...good to get a cold restistance buff... hope you get it..its CAKE
Oct 26 2001
Falc is right we were in the EE room last night and killed him 3 time and all 3 times the bag dropped and the spawn time was 29 mins...

[Daldaen]

All the quotes about drop rate appear to be after the removal.

The one guy who talks about spending 24 hours after nerf to find it not dropping there said he was told 1 in 8 was the worst rate he heard before removal.

I still don’t believe that this one item was unique compared to the rest of the 100s of classic named mobs in vanilla EQ. Every other classic named mob from Dvinn to Magi Rokyl that has a common/rare drop table varies between a 80/20 to a 60/40 ratio, with 75/25 being a common value accepted to be the likely value if you had large enough data samples to remove RNG skewing present in the small data samples available in posts or magelo data.

There really aren’t any examples of Uber rare drops in vanilla EQ. That was a Kunark Innovation.

I think finding anything definitive on a drop from a 35 mob removed 6 months into EQ beyond the common/rare indicator is unlikely. Which is why I think it following the pattern of every other named mob from classic makes sense.

[BurtMacklinFBI]

Keep it rare if this is going to be selectively classic anyway

[Endonde]

Dear Brad, Verant, John, anyone
Is the stoppage of manastone spawn (1) a bug? (2) an
intentional change? (3) a temporary change? Since Wednesday the 13ths
patch nobody on any server that I have friends on has seen a manastone
drop off the Evil Eye in live side lower Guk. I personally camped the
EE for 24 real-time hours, going through 30+ evil eyes (not including
placeholders) and not one single stone was dropped. Everyone I've
talked to has said for the longest time the ratio is about 1 in 8.
Would somebody address this situation, because manastones at my level
(46) are very necessary. And by stopping the spawn, be it voluntary or
bug you encourage those who've camped and harvested and now allow them
to reap insane rewards and punish those who just never got the chance
to adventure and get the item.

This seems to be about as conclusive as you can get.

Also agree with what Dald is saying, It seems that the "ultra rare" classification was added to manastone, but ultra rare items aren't around until Kunark, and they are found on mobs that drop 3 or more items I believe.

[Daldaen]

Can Devs or content update people who have access to the database share with us what the current drop rate is for the Manastone?

I’m curious what it’s set to currently. Sounds like it’s around 5% from all reports coming out of the Manastone camp.

Coincidentally I’d also be curious to know what the next lowest drop rate from a named mob with 2 items is from classic in our database. Perhaps Arch Magus SMR or Frenzied FBSS? Going off Magelo both of these items are 20% drop rate (it’s important to understand when looking at Magelo drop percentages, these include kills from the updated live level 85-110 versions of the zone which have different drops with the same mob name so it compiles them all under the same mob. So you have to take the total of the two classic items and divide by the count of each to get an accurate drop chance).

Manastone should be set to 20% to match the other rare items from LGuk. Classic while on its face seems very unique with the quests available and zonewide rare spawns, the drop rate for named mobs seems very consistent across the entirety of vanilla EQ. The only exceptions are for mobs that drop 3 items (Skarlorn, Estrella, Ishva Mal, maybe one more I’m forgetting?). But every mob with 2 drops has the chance for each set to around 80-60% common and 40-20% rare. Even in the case of mobs like ghoul cavalier, ghoul assassin, or shin lord, where one of the drops is a class specific item, usable by only a single class, those rare weapons are 20% drop chance.

[Sunderfury]

Telin was pretty clear that he wanted more evidence to implement change, just saying 'it makes sense that it isn't ultra rare' isn't evidence. Knowing what the drop rate is set to right now won't do you any good.

I dug through some newsgroup queries and found 1 piece of 2nd hand evidence for a 1:8 ratio, which is basically a 12.5% drop rate (still very rare by all accounts). It does seem like there was a period based on accounts that it was made more rare, but not sure if they would consider this evidence enough for an increased drop rate.

There's probably more evidence out there, maybe a farm guide or zone guide from early on. Get to searching. Perhaps you want to make a case for a less rare chance of Evil Eye spawn to speed up the drop rate.

It's tough to find a lot of info in era, but give it a shot.

[Daldaen]

For things in the first 6 months of everquest finding anything at all is rare because fan sites were just then cropping up. Finding something as specific as drop rates which take hundreds if not thousands of entries to confirm you’ve done a good job at shaking potential RNG skewing effects, is just not feasible for this type of legacy item. Trust me, I’ve done a lot of EverQuest research in my day. Finding something this specific this early from EQs lifespan just isn’t feasible.

As evidence of this, all the quotes you pulled from the google group are from dates after the item removal was confirmed via patch note. So all of those people who are claiming the item is now uber rare are mistaken and it actually got removed. Brad has a post confirming the removal of the item and later planar Nerf.

I think the fact that literally every other analogous rare creature from vanilla has a similar drop rate distribution of their common and rare drops is extremely telling. If there were some outliers that would be one thing. We are talking about the hundreds of named across 30+ zones that follow this pattern. Common 80-60%, Rare 20-40%. I get that the item is unique and was removed but when they originally launched with all of these unique items like JBoots, Quillmane Cloak, Guise, FBSS/Mithril 2hs (only group haste items prior to kedge revamp) etc. you find that even those items also follow the above drop distribution.

I would think in the absence of specific evidence this should be set to match the norm for all the other items which is what I’m suggesting. Rather than setting the item to the extremely rare chance it is currently.

[Sunderfury]

So, I'm not even saying you're wrong. Just that a dev had asked for more evidence to increase the drop rate. I do not believe there is no additional evidence out there personally, especially considering how valuable this item was to classes. Bound to be some old guides / guild pages out there somewhere.

I searched maybe 30 to 40 mins in one resource and found some decent evidence. Not even sure if different key words could yield better results (noticed people referred to this as "mana stone" early on).

[Erati]

I camped these on live in a normal group and by the end of the night we each basically got a Stone ( was 4 of us )

I know sample size etc but this was a normal LGuk 'rare' item which can go on streaks as we have all seen back to back SMRs, Yaks, FBSS etc. I actually think the drop rate wasnt even that rare considering I dont remember returning to camp often, if we returned at all. We even had an 'extra' Manastone drop that I looted for my brother to give him bc he was too low lvl for Lguk.

[Erati]

I do not believe there is no additional evidence out there personally, especially considering how valuable this item was to classes. Bound to be some old guides / guild pages out there somewhere.


So I would like to comment about this bit.

When I had 'learned' about Manastone, it was being kept secret by players. Eventually the secret got out as most do but I remember players trading Manastone information.

Finding out where drops came from was not easy, you needed high level friends that liked you so they would tell you what you had to do. Manastone was hidden for a long time as people camped them without spilling the beans. I am lucky that I was behind the initial leveling curve that I had friends with people who were Bristlebane's first lvl 50ies so as they leveled I got the foresight into the dungeons they previously leveled in.

Basically my rambling point is, I dont believe you will find a ton of evidence about Manastone statistic or guides. It was kept extremely close to the vest and only a few sets of players who leveled up ahead of the curve really took advantage of the camp before they were removed. There was not a mad dash to get to Lguk like we have now, many items were still undiscovered and being found out by the time Manastone was halfway tru it's shelf life. There was also no loot message in the game when Manastone was dropping so people will not have any data in terms of logs about how many were looted over time.

[WaffleztheAndal]

No one wants a server flooded with manastones. Keep it rare.

The fact Teal means we’re going to have literally double the manastones after the remerge is bad enough.

[Erati]

No one wants a server flooded with manastones. Keep it rare.

The fact Teal means we’re going to have literally double the manastones after the remerge is bad enough.

It's still a rare drop, I am not sure I follow your logic.

You can literally say the same thing about Yak,SMR,FBSS as they all should have same drop rate as Manastone but no one is crying about the server being 'flooded' with those Lguk items.

Its no different minus the fact it gets removed later but that shouldnt be a factor in the drop rate in a classic relaunch.

[WaffleztheAndal]

It's still a rare drop, I am not sure I follow your logic.

You can literally say the same thing about Yak,SMR,FBSS as they all should have same drop rate as Manastone but no one is crying about the server being 'flooded' with those Lguk items.

Its no different minus the fact it gets removed later but that shouldnt be a factor in the drop rate in a classic relaunch.

The manastone was removed for a reason, it’s busted op. Imagine a server flooded with them having been on permanent camping across green and teal with a 20% drop rate. Not to be rude but that’s way, way too much of a broken item.

[Daldaen]

Outside of druid/wizard almost no one uses them on Blue currently and it’s certainly not a make of break item. Just a flavor item people want to play around with.

Soulfire/Reaper being clickable by anyone is far more of a balance concern on a server compared to Manastone. Some Druids / wizards being able to port to classic and regain full mana in reduced time before gating to Kunark or Velious is far less valuable than being able to instantly CH yourself or anyone near you in any zone any time. Just as one example.

Had Manastone not been nerfed to be limited to classic zones I’d agree with you, but the nerf to limit the zones it works in balances the item out.

[Hagglebaron]

I feel like having almost every other cleric, Druid, Necro etc walking around with these things will really take some of the air out of the classic sails. These classes basically won’t have downtime and will have less reliance on working with others to tackle content. Let’s avoid that kind of inflation on the fresh classic server we’ve waited ten years for please.

[Erati]

I feel like having almost every other cleric, Druid, Necro etc walking around with these things will really take some of the air out of the classic sails. These classes basically won’t have downtime and will have less reliance on working with others to tackle content. Let’s avoid that kind of inflation on the fresh classic server we’ve waited ten years for please.

That wont happen even if the drop rate is normalized.

Is everyone who camps AM getting a robe after 1 session? Usually not, same w other rare loots but at least its possible and likely to see a drop within 20 hours unlike this unclassic madness.

[Daldaen]

I mean half the server being an Enchanter, druid, mage or Necro is itself pretty wind in classic sails killing as far as immersion goes.

People know more now and will play the game differently than people did 20 years ago. I know people want to have a classic experience of seeing someone use a Manastone or a Guise or a Pegasus Cloak and be awed because it was a rare sight back in the day to find someone who possessed these items. But their rarity wasn’t due to the drop rate but the knowledge of where they dropped and in the cases of legacy items how briefly they dropped.

If you want that classic awe wait until Kunark and look for mage, Necro, wizard, Enchanter and warrior epics. Those will be classicly rare due to how rare the raid pieces were and the RESPAWN time on those raid mobs.

[Deliverator]

I love how people are concerned that this item is game breaking. 1) It isn't. 2) The drop rate on blue was the same as it is on green and teal. So basically if we had the CORRECT drop rate we would STILL have fewer manastones (once all servers are merged) than we should have.

[skorge]

Telin was pretty clear that he wanted more evidence to implement change, just saying 'it makes sense that it isn't ultra rare' isn't evidence. Knowing what the drop rate is set to right now won't do you any good.

Can you ask him what evidence he had to change it to start with? The drop rate was higher on Red, which was P99's last manastone occurrence. I camped and witnessed several manastones dropping a day on Red which featured no line or wait list at times.

Here's what I think, someone on the dev team purposely reduced the drop rate for Green to this super low number without having evidence to do so.

In the end, all these people are suffering. I am only level 23 so this does not currently affect me but I have a friend who has been there 30+ hours already and he's like the 3rd one on the list...it's unhealthy and insane, the list system combined with the super low drop rate.

So, Sunderfury, can you find out who dev'd the Red launch and ask them what P99 had the drop rate then and use that number? I mean if he is saying he needs more evidence to change things, where was the evidence he received to adjust it to the % rate it is now?

Summary: change the drop rate to what it was on Red launch.

[Dolalin]

I guess you guys need my help huh.

[skorge]

I guess you guys need my help huh.

Yes, they do...my friend is at 50 hours in, no help....#2 on the list now. You can help save a life on this one, lol.

PS - also see if you can find evidence of EE spawn rate, not just drop rate...but anything you can find would be appreciated and amazing.

[WaffleztheAndal]

I love how people are concerned that this item is game breaking. 1) It isn't. 2) The drop rate on blue was the same as it is on green and teal. So basically if we had the CORRECT drop rate we would STILL have fewer manastones (once all servers are merged) than we should have.

How is having 20% drops running 24/7 across two servers that will become one again less manastones than we should have? Blue was a very abnormal server. That would be a fuckton of manastones flooding remerged green. I can already see groups excluding casters without a stone as it becomes easier and easier to find one who does have a manastone.

[skorge]

How is having 20% drops running 24/7 across two servers that will become one again less manastones than we should have? Blue was a very abnormal server. That would be a fuckton of manastones flooding remerged green. I can already see groups excluding casters without a stone as it becomes easier and easier to find one who does have a manastone.

Why not just completely remove it then? Lol. If it's classic, leave it classic. Right now, Green has the drop rate WAY too low. It's not classic.

Classic is classic, like it or hate it. If the server ends up with too many stones, so what. Look at blue. There's like a gazillion fungi tunics on it. People still love it.

[WaffleztheAndal]

Why not just completely remove it then? Lol. If it's classic, leave it classic. Right now, Green has the drop rate WAY too low. It's not classic.

Classic is classic, like it or hate it. If the server ends up with too many stones, so what. Look at blue. There's like a gazillion fungi tunics on it. People still love it.

Blue is a fucking bloated monstrosity of a server. It’s the best available by a country mile before green, but now that we have green we should try to stay as far away from what Blue was/became as possible. The staff have went with selectively classic/non classic decisions many times before, this should be one of those times now that green has teal doubling up the manastone camps and they are on literal 24/7 farm.

[Daldaen]

People seem very fixated on the idea that people get exclusionary when grouping with certain things they already see as bad. Manastones, Hybrid Penalty, Ragebringer alts of old, and AAs come to mind on these forums. I don’t think the rare instances where someone was excluded from a group are part of the norm. Most people just want warm bodies to fill slots as doing content of appropriate level with a full group is almost always trivial regardless of the combination of classes and gear involved. I’ve grouped a lot on green and never had someone speak up rejecting someone for gear or hybrid penalty. I’m sure it’s happened but it’s not the norm.

Contrarily you might even see people being more inclusive for example you may accept a Druid to heal your Efreeti group if they have a Manastone, due to a non-Manastone Druids inability for keep up, reserving that healer slot only for clerics. Or you may be inclined to invite the wizard whose DPS is awful compared to a monk or rogue because they’re able to put out just a little more once they have a Manastone. There are pros to Manastones being more prevalent.

But in reality, I still think it makes no sense for this item to be so rare when nothing else in classic matches this behavior. It seems like a custom change that was made to artificially keep the stones rare, which I don’t quite understand.

If the reason is immersion, it would’ve been better to throw the stone on a random 35+ named that isn’t frequented much in classic, and let people figure it out. This would more match the classic experience where not knowing where an item would drop was a big factor as Eratii posted above.

If the reason was balance concerns there are plenty of more impactful items than an item limited to classic zones that don’t see much level 55+ traffic after Kunark and Velious launch, which is over 70% of the servers projected lifespan. As mentioned above things like any click SoulFire/Reaper, Circlet of Shadows, Locket of Escape, Global Cooldown removal, Vendor recharging, Midnight Mallets, Puppet Strings, Monk Defensive tables etc etc are all classic legacy or bugs that have far greater reaching impacts on the games balance than this one item. Yet as of now none of these have been changed.

Make the Manastone match the drop rate of other LGuk rares and let the server play out. There’s no need for an artificially rare drop rate on this item.

[Erati]

Blue is a fucking bloated monstrosity of a server. It’s the best available by a country mile before green, but now that we have green we should try to stay as far away from what Blue was/became as possible. The staff have went with selectively classic/non classic decisions many times before, this should be one of those times now that green has teal doubling up the manastone camps and they are on literal 24/7 farm.

This has nothing to do with the current problem of the Manastone drop rate.

[Dolalin]

So far just this, it contrasts 'rare' with 'uncommon' though, which I think is a decent find.


WHY STOP DROPPING IT?, By Highbird

I don't think they will have it stop dropping, afterall it's a rare dropping INT caster only robe that comes from a weekly spawing lvl 60 Dragon..unlike the manastone which uncommonly dropped off Evil-Eyes which are in the lvl range of the mid 30s. I think they'd need it to drop more.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001122003200/http://eq.castersrealm.com/data/items.asp?Action=Description&Id=1805

[Nirgon]

We had "more manastones than actual players" on red. Which was likely true.

By Velious they became very valuable again and not everyone had one.

[Daldaen]

Uncommonly dropped is a pretty telling description. 20+ hour gaps in drops even when accounting for RNG sounds very off.

[Deliverator]

Manastone drop rates on P99 are not even close to classic. I'd love to know what justification they have for setting it to less than 10% drop rate with a 60% PH chance. I get it, you guys don't think you have enough evidence to change it. What is the evidence you're using for the CURRENT drop rate? Because I feel like the "evidence" you're using to justify the current drop rate doesn't exist.

[Aquelin]

We've nearly reached the thirty hour mark since the last stone dropped on Green. That's 28+ consecutive hours for one person to get their stone, with at least 4 others having to wait those same 28+ hours and more just for their chance to spend 20 to over 65 hours (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=340936) for their chance at this item that is largely only useful for it's own era.

Let's be real; this is likely the product of artificial scarcity because the staff knew the population was going to be many times over what the initial population of Blue was (/tinfoil hat). We even a post here (https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4667) from nilbog stating that the bag (the common drop from EE table) was dropping 70% of the time during early classic Blue prior the Manastone being removed. This coincides with the drop formula for named mobs Daldaen mentioned in this thread. So why is it being kept secret now?

More importantly, what evidence is being used to support the current drop rate if nothing decisive has been found?

[Solist]

Just some quick update.

The last 3 manastones are:
31.5 hours for a drop of a manastone from last
6hrs for another.
currently at 34.5 hours and no stone.

HEAPS CLASSIC GUYS

(qualification, im at just under 100 hours total spent here)

[BlackBellamy]

Manastone drop rates on P99 are not even close to classic. I'd love to know what justification they have for setting it to less than 10% drop rate with a 60% PH chance. I get it, you guys don't think you have enough evidence to change it. What is the evidence you're using for the CURRENT drop rate? Because I feel like the "evidence" you're using to justify the current drop rate doesn't exist.

What "evidence" do you have "drop rates on P99 are not even close to classic"?

It's a hypothetical question because I know you don't have any.

[randal.flagg]

For what its worth i saw 5 drop in 36 hours.

Sounds like ya'll got some bad RNG.

[Daldaen]

This is sort of like resist rates.

You’re not going to find specific resist rates on every single mob in game, so you generally just want to go with a basic resist set. Unless you have specific evidence indicating a mob has a special or unique resist, like some mobs being magic immune for example. Then you apply a magic immune resist level to a mob.

Same should go for Manastone drop rate. In absence of specific information, it should match the regular drop rate for “rare drops” from the other 20 named mobs in the same zone.

[YendorLootmonkey]

They probably properly halved the drop rate of legacy items when Green split to Teal post-Thanos Snap so the same amount of coveted items would have entered the world once Green and Teal were merged post-Hulk Snap.

[Daldaen]

I’m pretty sure it was like this for the first group that got there before the split as well.

However if I’m mistaken, I’d hope they realize that’s a silly thing to do considering classic featured many splits and many of those servers merged back together in a classic era.

[Videri]

They probably properly halved the drop rate of legacy items when Green split to Teal post-Thanos Snap so the same amount of coveted items would have entered the world once Green and Teal were merged post-Hulk Snap.

Dang...I wonder if that is true. There is a certain logic to it, and the drop rates seem to reflect that. I think Green is at 40 hours now. Perhaps someone can confirm.

[Swyftfingers]

The drop rate is likely 10%. This is just terrible. PLEASE consider revising the drop rate of manastones. It is unbearable. Most folks are spending on average at least 12 hours per stone - With a line of 4-5 people permanently camping it, it's taking the average player in excess of 48 hours of nonstop camping & AFK checks to attain the mana stone.

The current drop rate is completely conjecture - We all know it used to spawn quite commonly and at some point the drop rate was nerfed. But it just seems it is nerfed from the get-go. I've been at the camp now for 12 hours and not a single stone has dropped. I'm number 5 in line. It's just ridiculous...

[YendorLootmonkey]

Please keep in mind all of the legacy items are "want to have" items and not "need to have" items. You can get all the way up to endgame Velious raiding without them.

No need to physically make yourself suffer for X number of hours at the computer over this stuff. If you do, that's on you and your weird grasp of life priorities.

[WaffleztheAndal]

The drop rate is likely 10%. This is just terrible. PLEASE consider revising the drop rate of manastones. It is unbearable. Most folks are spending on average at least 12 hours per stone - With a line of 4-5 people permanently camping it, it's taking the average player in excess of 48 hours of nonstop camping & AFK checks to attain the mana stone.

The current drop rate is completely conjecture - We all know it used to spawn quite commonly and at some point the drop rate was nerfed. But it just seems it is nerfed from the get-go. I've been at the camp now for 12 hours and not a single stone has dropped. I'm number 5 in line. It's just ridiculous...

No. The server will be absolutely flooded with these things if the drop rate is higher after the green/teal remerge. I’ve said it before but it bears repeating. Keep the drop rate low, if the cost of server integrity is some people (heaven forbid) going without a manastone that is a small price to pay. If it is unbearable then make the healthy choice and don’t bear it. Leave it for the neckbeards.

[Daldaen]

No one should care about the number of manastones after merger. A merger won't occur until Kunark at the earliest likely. No reason to worry about manastones count when the bulk of the server is in non-manastone zones.

[zodium]

The server will be absolutely flooded with these things if the drop rate is higher after the green/teal remerge.

that'd be good tho?

[Veeshan31]

Guys are you really spending over a full 24 hours at this camp? Like you are sitting at your computer for 24+ hours? WTF is wrong with all of you.

[Dolalin]

I wanted to revisit Drakkan's post about the drop rate of Manastones, because I found more info from him on Graffe's in October 1999:


Drakkan Dragonsbane of the Covenant of Blood guild on Prexus sent in more confirming info on the disappearance of the Mana Stone:
"What the user submission said is no joke. Myself and a party of friends camped the Evil Eye in lower guk live side from 8:00pm PST On Saturday the 16th to 4:00am PST Monday the 18th. Do the math:
32 hour period
Less ~8 hours for sleep, food, etc
-
24 consecutive Evil eye camping hours
35 minutes per spawn leaves:
-
41 Eye or placeholder spawns
About 8 or 10 of which were placeholder live frogloks
-
Leaves over thirty consecutive confirmed Evil Eye kills on Prexus, yielding no manastones. Bring our stones back!"
Thank you Drakkan!

http://web.archive.org/web/20000918121745/www.graffe.com//home/October31st.htm


That's a decent sample size for the ratio of eyes to PHers, if nothing else. And I'll repost his newsgroup thread from below:


10/20/99

From: Drakkan Dragonsbane-CoB, Prexus

Dear Brad, Verant, John, anyone :)

Is the stoppage of manastone spawn (1) a bug? (2) an
intentional change? (3) a temporary change? Since Wednesday the 13ths
patch nobody on any server that I have friends on has seen a manastone
drop off the Evil Eye in live side lower Guk. I personally camped the
EE for 24 real-time hours, going through 30+ evil eyes (not including
placeholders) and not one single stone was dropped. Everyone I've
talked to has said for the longest time the ratio is about 1 in 8.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/IgocJfmfV_c/4YkGk0ctJ7QJ


I will have a look at CoB's website and see if there's any info there to pry out. But I'd think with such a large sample size and what he's saying about the drop rate that this should be given some weight.

(Just FYI I play a Bard and couldn't give a shit about the manastone drop rate, heh. I just hate mysteries, they itch)

Edit: Also from that Graffe link:


Anonymous Viewer sent this in: "I heard a rumor the night before the last patch (solusek ro patch) that manastones will no longer be dropped by the Evil Eye in Lower Guk. Since the patch.. I have killed the eye 26 times and nothing.. a friend has killed it about 15 times and nothing.. and another friend has done 5-10 without getting one. I'm beginning to think that the rumor is more than just a rumor."


Puts more bounds on what the "expected" drop rate would have been.

Oh and hilariously, I think Drakkan may have been this guy who fell asleep camping the manastone lol:


A fellow guildie in Covenant of Blood on live back in 99 got stuck in a death loop. He was a wizard and he bound himself at the Evil eye camp in lower guk.. He was camping the manastone and fell asleep. I think he lost about 8 levels or so. The GM's thankfully restored his character.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=329446&postcount=28

[Erati]

so what is the consensus here?

Did they nerf the drop rates THEN remove the stone all together and on P99 we are experiencing the 'nerfed' drop rates based on the evidence of these testimonies?

[Dolalin]

so what is the consensus here?

Did they nerf the drop rates THEN remove the stone all together and on P99 we are experiencing the 'nerfed' drop rates based on the evidence of these testimonies?

I think this is a case of good old fashioned rumor mill running in overdrive. People were saying "it still drops it's just uber rare!" after the Temple of Sol Ro patch in October, but I don't think it was.

After the Temple of Sol Ro manastone stoppage, I see posts like these in the newsgroups:


11/27/99
Subject: Rumor Control on Manastones !

HI, I'm hoping to get an official word on manastones, rumor has it they may
come back as a quest item and others say they are gone forever. Anyone seen
any OFFICIAL word on this? Thanks....
Non-staggering druid on erollisi marr :)

---

Nope .. just drops a lot less ... A RL friend of mine looted one from the
Evil Eye yesterday

Parricide <parr...@fastmail.ca> wrote in message
news:81p512$2m8$0@206.162.38.99...


> Gone forever due to a cleric exploit. Current price on E'ci? 30kpp.
And
> as soon as i can come up with 30000pp, im getting one ;-)

https://groups.google.com/d/topic/alt.games.everquest/xoR0aOovN0g/discussion


But it just smells like bullshit to me.

[Erati]

Ah so the drop rate “nerf” was just rumors and more than likely it was a normal lguk rare variety loot. Once it was removed w very little publication people went crazy thinking “uber rare” and began mixing stories /spreading rumors to explain the situation as no official response on the removal was found.

[Dolalin]

That's my take on it yeah.