Green server and "operating under legal permission"

[pheerie]

I am interested in the Green Server, but I am concerned that the legal agreement outlined in the "operating under legal permission" link on the homepage is outdated. This agreement was reached during Sony ownership, not Daybreak. How can I be confident that I will not be wasting time playing on Green without a new agreement in place? I can envision the new owners of EverQuest catching wind of this new, non-sanctioned "TLP", and quickly nullifying any prior SOE agreement and shutting this down.

[loramin]

This agreement was reached during Sony ownership, not Daybreak

Incorrect: the agreement was made with Daybreak (ie. the current IP rights holder), not SOE. See http://wiki.project1999.com/Daybreak_Game_Company (there's even a link to the announcement on Daybreak's site there).

And as Rogean said in a post (and I'm paraphrasing here), while he can't reveal the terms of the contract ... he'd have to be pretty dumb to sign a contract Daybreak could just revoke for no reason whenever they felt like it.

[Dolalin]

Literally the first result on Google.

https://www.everquest.com/news/project-1999-daybreak

[pheerie]

That was the agreement with the old daybreak, when Columbus Nova/Renova Group owned them. Now only Jason Epstein owns them. Same principal - how can I be confident Epstein won't shut this down when he catches wind? Also, that old agreement probably expired by now.

[Raekwondo Erudson]

I am interested in the Green Server, but I am concerned that the legal agreement outlined in the "operating under legal permission" link on the homepage is outdated. This agreement was reached during Sony ownership, not Daybreak. How can I be confident that I will not be wasting time playing on Green without a new agreement in place? I can envision the new owners of EverQuest catching wind of this new, non-sanctioned "TLP", and quickly nullifying any prior SOE agreement and shutting this down.

You have the intelligence of a kobald runt. Leave the philosophical thinking to the High Men of Norrath.

[pheerie]

And as Rogean said in a post (and I'm paraphrasing here), while he can't reveal the terms of the contract ... he'd have to be pretty dumb to sign a contract Daybreak could just revoke for no reason whenever they felt like it.

I am sorry, but Rogean has no leg to stand on here. Back in 2015, things were a lot different. Epstein's lawyers could shut all this down in two seconds today and no one would bat an eye.

[loramin]

That was the agreement with the old daybreak, when Columbus Nova/Renova Group owned them. Now only Jason Epstein owns them. Same principal - how can I be confident Epstein won't shut this down when he catches wind? Also, that old agreement probably expired by now.

Legal contracts between entities don't "expire", unless it's written into the contrract. If company A has a contract with party B, and company C acquires company A, A's contract with B remains unchanged.

Now of course the details of said contract matter ... but we don't know those details. And of course there are always options: Daybreak's owner could dissolve the company, breaking the contract, then sell the IP rights to a new company. If that happened, yes this place could be taken down, and you'd have wasted your "time investment" (if you think of playing a video game that way).

Also a giant meteor could crash into earth tomorrow, and then your investment could also be lost!

Most people though would just enjoy the 100% free game that has lasted 10 years and (unlike virtually any other emulated game in existence) has legal protection from the IP owners. And quite frankly your somewhat crazy line of questioning is making me think most people here would be better off without you.

[pheerie]

You have the intelligence of a kobald runt. Leave the philosophical thinking to the High Men of Norrath.

I like that you are enjoying some role-playing, but this is serious, and if you bury your head in the sand, you could get royally screwed out of many hours of your life.

[Fammaden]

You're right don't play, tell anyone else you know not to bother either.

[loramin]

royally screwed out of many hours of your life.

Jesus man, no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to play a video game. Just get out of here if you're that emotionally tied to what you do in your free time.

[Lojik]

I am sorry, but Rogean has no leg to stand on here. Back in 2015, things were a lot different. Epstein's lawyers could shut all this down in two seconds today and no one would bat an eye.

So you think since daybreak changed hands in ownership, that suddenly the agreement between the company and project1999 is void?

Also if you play on a server for a year, enjoy it, and then it shuts down, you were just "wasting your time?"

[Rogean]

I am sorry, but Rogean has no leg to stand on here.

You have a very inadequate understanding of our legal system and how contracts work with companies and their ownerships.

[pheerie]

Most people though would just enjoy the 100% free game that has lasted 10 years and (unlike virtually any other emulated game in existence) has legal protection from the IP owners. And quite frankly your somewhat crazy line of questioning is making me think most people here would be better off without you.

I have enjoyed some time on P99 blue, and I appreciate the staff and playerbase. You are making all your legal protection conclusions on 4-year-old posts with no legal detail. I feel my questions are perfectly valid for a player looking to invest time into a character.

[loramin]

You are making all your legal protection conclusions on 4-year-old posts with no legal detail.

You have a very inadequate understanding of our legal system and how contracts work with companies and their ownerships.

Also, your words indicate that you think you're smarter than the tens of volunteers who already "risked" investing their time not just to play a video game, but to let other people play a video game ... as well as the (literally) thousands of other players here, some of whom have sunk months of their life in to this "risky investment".

Either you actually are smarter than all of them, or you need to read about the Dunning–Kruger effect and apply it to your understanding of law. And even if you ARE a legal genius ... yelling to a crowd about how much smarter than them you are is rude regardless.

[Jimjam]

Legal contracts between entities don't "expire", unless it's written into the contrract. If company A has a contract with party B, and company C acquires company A, A's contract with B remains unchanged.

Now of course the details of said contract matter ... but we don't know those details. And of course there are always options: Daybreak's owner could dissolve the company, breaking the contract, then sell the IP rights to a new company. If that happened, yes this place could be taken down, and you'd have wasted your "time investment" (if you think of playing a video game that way).

Also a giant meteor could crash into earth tomorrow, and then your investment could also be lost!

Most people though would just enjoy the 100% free game that has lasted 10 years and (unlike virtually any other emulated game in existence) has legal protection from the IP owners. And quite frankly your somewhat crazy line of questioning is making me think most people here would be better off without you.

I find it amazing the number of people who play but whom imply they don't like the process of playing, but only stay due to sunk investment.

[Fammaden]

OP has convinced me not to risk wasting anymore time here, good luck in green all, see you in pantheon.

[Argh]

So you've been lurking since 2010 and are just now concerned about wasting some hours of your life?

[pheerie]

You have a very inadequate understanding of our legal system and how contracts work with companies and their ownerships.

You don't know me. Prove to your playerbase Epstein can't shut it all down tomorrow.

[Fammaden]

Hey, guys pantheon is taking awhile it seems so I'm back, anything new happening?

[Deathrydar]

Troll post. You are all biting.

[Lojik]

I have enjoyed some time on P99 blue, and I appreciate the staff and playerbase. You are making all your legal protection conclusions on 4-year-old posts with no legal detail. I feel my questions are perfectly valid for a player looking to invest time into a character.

Rogean please disclose all information pertaining to any legal agreements between Project 1999, Rogean technologies, Daybreak games, Brad McQuaid, Jason Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein, and Opal Darkbriar. It's our right as players on your free to play server.

[Jimjam]

You don't know me. Prove to your playerbase Epstein can't shut it all down tomorrow.

He don't know you, he don't owe we.

[Jimjam]

Requesting share wolf form for dogpile please.

[Rogean]

You don't know me. Prove to your playerbase Epstein can't shut it all down tomorrow.

Good thing I don't waste time trying to prove things to trolls on the forums, when my time is better spent working on buttoning up issues for the new server of a community that's been around for 10 years.

[pheerie]

So you've been lurking since 2010 and are just now concerned about wasting some hours of your life?

Aren't those normal machinations of an EverQuest player?

[Deathrydar]

Good thing I don't waste time trying to prove things to trolls on the forums, when my time is better spent working on buttoning up issues for the new server of a community that's been around for 10 years.

Yes! Please ignore the idiot and keep working on green.

I love you!

[loramin]

of a community that's been around for 10 years.

https://i.imgur.com/UIBIrmg.gif

[pheerie]

Good thing I don't waste time trying to prove things to trolls on the forums, when my time is better spent working on buttoning up issues for the new server of a community that's been around for 10 years.

Good point. I think I will skip Green. Best of luck to you all, and I hope Epstein doesn't shut you down.

[Deathrydar]

Good point. I think I will skip Green. Best of luck to you all, and I hope Epstein doesn't shut you down.

Bye troll.

[magusfire24]

*shrug* Back to looking forward to reliving Classic EQ in Green!

[Dolalin]

Good thing I don't waste time trying to prove things to trolls on the forums

*looks at Green bug forums*

Unfortunately, I do....

[Lojik]

Good thing I don't waste time trying to prove things to trolls on the forums, when my time is better spent working on buttoning up issues for the new server of a community that's been around for 10 years.

I'm concerned that IP holders for Eragon will sue based on the fact that your forum handle is an anagram of said franchise. Please placate my fears.

[Canelek]

I like that you are enjoying some role-playing, but this is serious, and if you bury your head in the sand, you could get royally screwed out of many hours of your life.


Your immersion potential may be catastrophic.

[loramin]

Good point. I think I will skip Green. Best of luck to you all, and I hope Epstein doesn't shut you down.

$5 says he winds up creating a character here anyway: we all know the addictive lure of ...

https://i.imgur.com/E315nhG.jpg

[zodium]

hearty lmao

[zaneosak]

You have the intelligence of a kobald runt. Leave the philosophical thinking to the High Men of Norrath.

I found this post way funnier than I should have. Like spit out my coffee at my desk funny.

[Verityn]

OP has convinced me not to risk wasting anymore time here, good luck in green all, see you in pantheon.

Pantheon is not immune to catastrophic meteors so there's no point.

[Jibartik]

I like that you are enjoying some role-playing, but this is serious, and if you bury your head in the sand, you could get royally screwed out of many hours of your life.

I haven't read anything else, but here is some advice:

Enjoy the journey. :o

[Invalid_Bard]

You fucking nerds need to relax. This damn thing has been going for years. Besides, if anything is going to be this servers downfall it will be the RMT or leaked photos of the staff snorting coke with detoxx and hokushin while yanking it pictures of vulak wearing a rile crown.

[Jibartik]

Good point. I think I will skip Green.

I read the thread.

THANK GOD.

[BlackBellamy]

Good point. I think I will skip Green. Best of luck to you all, and I hope Epstein doesn't shut you down.

What can we, as Concerned Players of Everquest, do to help you change your mind? Do you think we should reach out to Epstein? Try to get a new agreement, one that's actually worth something, not the tissue-paper one in place now? Let's brainstorm! Why don't you have your attorney send my attorney (DM me for email) a template contract that you're comfortable with? I'll forward what you sent to Chortles, our best legal authority and former Superior Court judge. We must have a dozen lawyers here just playing, so we'll get together and hammer something out.


(Listen, I apologize for that Rogean guy. He doesn't know what he's doing, we all just humor him, don't take him seriously).

[Jibartik]

I am starting a go fund me to get Pherire back.

[NegaStoat]

I used to be a support GM / Trinity Core dev for a WoW private server called Bloodcraft, which was the last private server of its kind hosted within the United States. It operated from early 2009 and finally closed its doors early 2013 to be adopted by a different project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXBxsFj_cqk

The project was able to be run legally by adhering very sharply to American consumer protection laws in a very similar manner that the old Shards of Dalaya EQ private server operated under. The key items that were required for this to work at all were as follows.

1) The original packaged software was sold as a product, and not as a lease use agreement. Blizzard adopted its terms of use as a lease use rather than a sale of a product later into its expansion stages, but the original 2004 release was as a product, so their attempt to close the barn door on that was foiled from consumer law's point of view.

2) The server side core had to be hand written and be substantially different from the original server code that Blizzard developed. Both Mang0s and its Trinity Core fork (which is what we were using and developing) solved that issue neatly. The reason for this stems back to consumer protection law that upheld the right of a customer to be free to use their purchased product in any manner they wished on any hardware they wished when it comes to audio, video, or computer media. This traces back to the music and video industries at one time trying to force a consumer to use special proprietary players for what a person purchased, which was shot down early on.

3) The persons playing on a private server had to provide their own legally purchased copy of the game client software. A fun fact about this one - When Blizzard successfully won a lawsuit in 2010 against the Scapegaming private server project, the court affirmed that if a player had at one time been paying an online subscription for the game in question and could prove they had done so from bank records, that was sufficient to show they had ownership of the product at some point in time. So for all of you folks obtaining a game client from digital means that had actually owned the game at one time - stop stressing over doing so.

4) The game host project could not provide a means to obtain the game client software. This one could be fought in court but it's just so much easier to avoid the point entirely.

5) No money can EVER change hands involving the running of the private server for profit. Honestly, it's a LOT easier to simply not accept money at all even as a donation or a gift 'without goods or services implied, received, or accepted' because the game company in question has a pair of methods still available to them to hinder or shut down a legally run private server. Note that these two methods largely hinge on where the private server hardware or staff members reside globally - and it's why current private servers are run outside of EU / NA trade law agreements.

A) The company can lean on the internet service provider company that is hosting the server hardware and have them drop the person(s) running the private server project as a customer. We had this happen twice until one of our players who happened to own his own ISP company offered us a home.

B) The company can launch financial investigations into any and all persons that are a part of the project staff to determine if there's covert profit being made with the private server being the source. The number of times they can do this a year as well as how thorough they make the investigations can ride a fine line into the area of harassment, but it's hard to prove that later point and it's just an obscene headache. I was investigated several times while I was a part of the project.

As a side note, third party companies or persons are not to be allowed to make a profit from digital goods or services associated with the private server project and this one can become especially hairy. Let's pretend that you are a fan gaming website that offers tips, tricks, and guides for playing the game in question and you run advertisements on your website and might offer the sale of clothing, mugs, or other items either real or digital. Now let's pretend that some of the guides or tips are demonstrated on the private server in question within their website, and even worse, some of the players of the private server talk about the website on project forums as an unintended means of advertisement for the site. The door has just been opened for the whole thing to be shut down.

Rogean would have been shut down LONG ago unless he had legal counsel assist him with a deal and I'm absolutely certain that whatever arrangement he made would cover issues that could crop up in the future, from either the project or the holder of the IP. So when it comes to the longevity of this server, I would place the agreement being made and its ability to hold up against the test of time to be dead last against the other factors that could eventually draw P1999 to a close.

[Deathrydar]

I used to be a support GM / Trinity Core dev for a WoW private server called Bloodcraft, which was the last private server of its kind hosted within the United States. It operated from early 2008 and finally closed its doors early 2013 to be adopted by a different project.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXBxsFj_cqk

The project was able to be run legally by adhering very sharply to American consumer protection laws in a very similar manner that the old Shards of Dalaya EQ private server operated under. The key items that were required for this to work at all were as follows.

1) The original packaged software was sold as a product, and not as a lease use agreement. Blizzard adopted its terms of use as a lease use rather than a sale of a product later into its expansion stages, but the original 2004 release was as a product, so their attempt to close the barn door on that was foiled from consumer law's point of view.

2) The server side core had to be hand written and be substantially different from the original server code that Blizzard developed. Both Mang0s and its Trinity Core fork (which is what we were using and developing) solved that issue neatly. The reason for this stems back to consumer protection law that upheld the right of a customer to be free to use their purchased product in any manner they wished on any hardware they wished when it comes to audio, video, or computer media. This traces back to the music and video industries at one time trying to force a consumer to use special proprietary players for what a person purchased, which was shot down early on.

3) The persons playing on a private server had to provide their own legally purchased copy of the game client software. A fun fact about this one - When Blizzard successfully won a lawsuit in 2010 against the Scapegaming private server project, the court affirmed that if a player had at one time been paying an online subscription for the game in question and could prove they had done so from bank records, that was sufficient to show they had ownership of the product at some point in time. So for all of you folks obtaining a game client from digital means that had actually owned the game at one time - stop stressing over doing so.

4) The game host project could not provide a means to obtain the game client software. This one could be fought in court but it's just so much easier to avoid the point entirely.

5) No money can EVER change hands involving the running of the private server for profit. Honestly, it's a LOT easier to simply not accept money at all even as a donation or a gift 'without goods or services implied, received, or accepted' because the game company in question has a pair of methods still available to them to hinder or shut down a legally run private server.

A) The company can lean on the internet service provider company that is hosting the server hardware and have them drop the person(s) running the private server project as a customer. We had this happen twice until one of our players who happened to own his own ISP company offered us a home.

B) The company can launch financial investigations into any and all persons that are a part of the project staff to determine if there's covert profit being made with the private server being the source. The number of times they can do this a year as well as how thorough they make the investigations can ride a fine line into the area of harassment, but it's hard to prove that later point and it's just an obscene headache. I was investigated several times while I was a part of the project.

As a side note, third party companies or persons are not to be allowed to make a profit from digital goods or services associated with the private server project and this one can become especially hairy. Let's pretend that you are a fan gaming website that offers tips, tricks, and guides for playing the game in question and you run advertisements on your website and might offer the sale of clothing, mugs, or other items either real or digital. Now let's pretend that some of the guides or tips are demonstrated on the private server in question within their website, and even worse, some of the players of the private server talk about the website on project forums as an unintended means of advertisement for the site. The door has just been opened for the whole thing to be shut down.

Rogean would have been shut down LONG ago unless he had legal counsel assist him with a deal and I'm absolutely certain that whatever arrangement he made would cover issues that could crop up in the future, from either the project or the holder of the IP. So when it comes to the longevity of this server, I would place the agreement being made and its ability to hold up against the test of time to be dead last against the other factors that could eventually draw P1999 to a close.

Can I get a TL;DR please?

[NegaStoat]

Can I get a TL;DR please?

Not really. There's far too many people who think every private server for every game in existence are 'illegal' when it's simply not the case. The text I wrote came from personal experience and research from what I was a part of at the time.

[Videri]

Can I get a TL;DR please?

The TL;DR is the last paragraph.

[Indicas]

Good point. I think I will skip Green. Best of luck to you all, and I hope Epstein doesn't shut you down.
thanks for leaving

[Indicas]

thanks for leaving
thanks for leaving, now he's going to go write a rant to Epstein to show all of us what a winner he is.

[Madbad]

just ducking my head in with a:

https://i.imgur.com/T3INSdn.gif

[Veeshan31]

I found this post way funnier than I should have. Like spit out my coffee at my desk funny.

Same here! I thought it was just me.

[Videri]

Perhaps OP is trying to scare people away from Green so he’ll have less competition for some legacy item.

[Jibartik]

just ducking my head in with a:

https://i.imgur.com/T3INSdn.gif

How neat is that!

https://i.imgur.com/gWzErX9.png

[Gen.Alexander]

I find it amazing the number of people who play but whom imply they don't like the process of playing, but only stay due to sunk investment.
Well, while I am having fun while playing MMORPGs I've some emotional investment in my characters too. Losing them always sucks.

Back to the main topic. There is no guarantee that any game won't close tomorrow, even a commercial one. P1999 is 10 years old so it already had a longer lifespan than many commercial games such as Wildstar (lasted for 4 years,) Warhammer Online (5 years,) Tabula Rasa (2 years.) Heck, if I was a betting man I'd put my money on P1999 outliving Daybreak's live EQ.

[vermabarkha507]

but Rogean has no leg to stand on here. Back in 2015, things were a lot different. Epstein's lawyers could shut all this down in two seconds today and no one would bat an eye.

galach edit: removed link

[GnomeCaptain]

I like that you are enjoying some role-playing, but this is serious, and if you bury your head in the sand, you could get royally screwed out of many hours of your life.

I'm pretty sure you're role-playing a (troll) lawyer.

And this is not serious. Get over yourself.

And if you play and the game gets shut down so what? How is that getting screwed? The playing and interacting with others is the reward. I could give two squirrel farts about my gear & characters.

Heaven forbid I have to find another game or read more or create something of value.

[Robersonroger38]

Good point. I think I will skip Green. Best of luck to you all, and I hope Epstein doesn't shut you down.

/hollywood laugh!

[cd288]

And as Rogean said in a post (and I'm paraphrasing here), while he can't reveal the terms of the contract ... he'd have to be pretty dumb to sign a contract Daybreak could just revoke for no reason whenever they felt like it.

Not really. The P99 staff probably had very little leverage here to negotiate terms since, at the end of the day, Daybreak could have just forced them to shut down the server due to the copyright violation. I wouldn't be surprised if the contract permits Daybreak to terminate for any reason at any time. As a corporate attorney, I would never agree to give a third party control over my client's IP like that - the contract would always allow me to terminate for any reason; the exception being things like a licensing scenario where the IP-holder is getting paid to license out the IP for a specific period of time, which isn't applicable here. Now, there's no real reason Daybreak would particularly care about terminating the contract at this time, but if P99 started pulling like 5 figures in players with regularity, I bet you Daybreak would re-consider.

Legal contracts between entities don't "expire", unless it's written into the contrract. If company A has a contract with party B, and company C acquires company A, A's contract with B remains unchanged.

This isn't technically true. The part about expiration is true, but when it comes to acquisitions most of the time you have to write into the contract that it will be binding on your successors/assigns. In this case, I would not be surprised if that was not in the contract with Daybreak. Again, P99 has very little leverage as far as negotiating the contract goes, and if I were Daybreak's lawyer I would refuse to agree to that because you'd want to make sure it was easier to sell the IP to somebody if you wanted to in the future (and saying the agreement with P99 is binding on them could make it harder to do that).

[loramin]

Not really. The P99 staff probably had very little leverage here to negotiate terms since, at the end of the day, Daybreak could have just forced them to shut down the server due to the copyright violation. I wouldn't be surprised if the contract permits Daybreak to terminate for any reason at any time. As a corporate attorney, I would never agree to give a third party control over my client's IP like that - the contract would always allow me to terminate for any reason; the exception being things like a licensing scenario where the IP-holder is getting paid to license out the IP for a specific period of time, which isn't applicable here. Now, there's no real reason Daybreak would particularly care about terminating the contract at this time, but if P99 started pulling like 5 figures in players with regularity, I bet you Daybreak would re-consider.



This isn't technically true. The part about expiration is true, but when it comes to acquisitions most of the time you have to write into the contract that it will be binding on your successors/assigns. In this case, I would not be surprised if that was not in the contract with Daybreak. Again, P99 has very little leverage as far as negotiating the contract goes, and if I were Daybreak's lawyer I would refuse to agree to that because you'd want to make sure it was easier to sell the IP to somebody if you wanted to in the future (and saying the agreement with P99 is binding on them could make it harder to do that).

I can sum up everything you just wrote with a single word: pedantry. Look, I'm no lawyer, but if you actually read my original post, the parts you left off agreed with you. I explicitly said that A) the details matter, and B) even if a company forms an iron-clad contract, there are still ways of breaking said contract (eg. dissolving the company).

But none of that matters, because for one thing this place existed for years without a formal legal agreement, and for another none of us knows the details of the agreement (except Rogean). Any discussion of the details is just "armchair quarterbacking". So while nothing you said was strictly wrong, it also didn't add or change anything germane to the conversation (ie. it was pedantic).

Ultimately what actually matters are the specific terms of the contract that Rogean and Daybreak signed. And while you and I might not know those details, Rogean does.

So until someone gives me a reason to think otherwise, I'm going to go by:

Without going into any details regarding our agreement (because I can't), I'll speak very generically here.

It wouldn't make much sense for one to enter into any sort of contract of protection if said contract could be rescinded without breach.

:)

[Chortles Snort|eS]

No WoRrYs elf
Da elDeR elF cAbAl aLLYaNcE hAs internaTionAl serVerS ready for flIp dA SwiTch in da EvenT of a C&D

SiPd

[Donkey Hotay]

I used to be a support GM / Trinity Core dev . . .

That was a very informative post. I'm glad I clicked past the first page of obvious trolling. Thank you.

[cd288]

I can sum up everything you just wrote with a single word: pedantry. Look, I'm no lawyer, but if you actually read my original post I even said, explicitly, that A) the details matter, and B) even if a company forms an iron-clad contract, there are still ways of breaking said contract (eg. dissolving the company).

But none of that matters, because for one thing this place existed for years without a formal legal agreement, and for another none of us knows the details of the agreement (except Rogean). Any discussion of the details is just "armchair quarterbacking". So while nothing you said was strictly wrong, it also didn't add or change anything germane to the conversation (ie. it was pedantic).

Ultimately what actually matters are the specific terms of the contract that Rogean and Daybreak signed. And while you and I might not know those details, Rogean does.

So until someone gives me a reason to think otherwise, I'm going to go by:

Well, it did add something to the conversation, which was correcting your definitive statements about contracts, etc. which weren't accurate and therefore misinforming.

I wasn't trying to say the server is going to be shut down, just that I'm sure it would not be extremely difficult for Daybreak to do so. I would imagine if they did that Rogean could try to sue for breach (if he can pay the attorney's fees and court filings), but the damages there would probably just be compensating him for the money spent on server upkeep/maintenance and hardware over the years. Point being, I'm sure Daybreak could shut it down with relative ease and (if they did it in breach of contract) minimal damages; however, like I said in my post I doubt they would ever do so unless it got to the point where it was seriously harming their business (i.e. tens of thousands of subscribers). Right now, there's barely any population on P99 so they don't care, and probably hope that maybe it will lead people to join TLPs for various different reasons (deciding they want to play past Velious, re-discovering EQ but wishing they had a bit more QoL, etc.).

[Tenderizer]

You have a very inadequate understanding of our legal system and how contracts work with companies and their ownerships.

OP I think you're going to need this.

https://i.imgur.com/ruW76EQl.jpg

[Chortles Snort|eS]

Good lucK In shUt dowN EaSteSrn HaLas NationS ruN ServEr noDeS If it cAme to DaT
BiG lafF

[loramin]

Well, it did add something to the conversation, which was correcting your definitive statements about contracts, etc. which weren't accurate and therefore misinforming

I used a specific word, with a specific meaning, and I think it flew over your head:

one who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge.

I was not writing a legal treatise! I was participating in a discussion (in a 20-year old elf sim forum) about why we don't (practically) need to worry about P99 going away.

You did "accurately correct" me ... or at least some tangential details of what I wrote ... but it was in a way that added nothing to the conversation at hand (because we weren't having a conversation on contract law). And it couldn't have been hard to find legal errors in my post, because again, I wasn't trying to write a legally accurate treatise. Everyone else here understood as much.

It's like if two people are having a conversation and one uses the word "literally" to mean "very", instead of "actually", so you interject and tell them that they're using the word wrong ... because you're an English genius and you know better and want to show off.

Except ... those two people were having their conversation just fine, and understood each other perfectly. Your interjection did nothing to improve or facilitate their conversation at all: it was just an excuse to show off your knowledge, at the expense of everyone listening.

[magusfire24]

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dnWp4aPJP4k/maxresdefault.jpg

[Rang]

Epstein is still alive his death was faked.

[cd288]

I used a specific word, with a specific meaning, and I think it flew over your head:



I was not writing a legal treatise! I was participating in a discussion (in a 20-year old elf sim forum) about why we don't (practically) need to worry about P99 going away.

You did "accurately correct" me ... or at least some tangential details of what I wrote ... but it was in a way that added nothing to the conversation at hand (because we weren't having a conversation on contract law). And it couldn't have been hard to find legal errors in my post, because again, I wasn't trying to write a legally accurate treatise. Everyone else here understood as much.

It's like if two people are having a conversation and one uses the word "literally" to mean "very", instead of "actually", so you interject and tell them that they're using the word wrong ... because you're an English genius and you know better and want to show off.

Except ... those two people were having their conversation just fine, and understood each other perfectly. Your interjection did nothing to improve or facilitate their conversation at all: it was just an excuse to show off your knowledge, at the expense of everyone listening.

Actually, no. It wasn't an excuse to show off knowledge. Two people were in an argument and you were one of them. You were asserting something that was wrong to try and prove your point. I corrected you. Ergo, relevance.

[loramin]

Actually, no. It wasn't an excuse to show off knowledge. Two people were in an argument and you were one of them. You were asserting something that was wrong to try and prove your point. I corrected you. Ergo, relevance.

And what was the false claim .. that was also important, significant, and germane to the discussion ... that you needed to correct, specifically?

(This forum has a quote function, and it should be super easy to use it to show the claim that I made.)

[Chortles Snort|eS]

https://i.imgur.com/PHXUcio.gif

[BlackBellamy]

I can sum up everything you just wrote with a single word: pedantry. Look, I'm no lawyer,



I'm not a lawyer either, but that guy is a corporate attorney. Maybe he can post back and answer me a question. Cause you see I was wondering, if I own a piece of software that sends out signals, and I send those signals to a guy who puts them in a giant calculator and sends them back to me, how is copyright involved? Because the guy with that calculator, he built that himself. And the client software, I have a receipt for that.

[heazels]

The terms probably state they can use code from the project if they deem it a profitable opportunity.

[solleks]

Let me preface this : I'M A LAWYER FOR SHERIFF RUGLIO OF THE VALE

Let me assure you Op you are safe to run around norrath until further notice. Your pixels will be safe as long as you ONLY BANK IN RIVERVALE. You will of course need ports and stuff but that is your problem

[Baler]

I for one encourage OP to spend his real money hiring a lawyer
Record the conversation when you tell him it's an emulated server for a game that's over 20 years old.

We'd all love to hear it.

[Jadian]

loramin is my spirit animal

[Madbad]

my spirit animal is a potato

[Nuggie]

The half wit with the broken speech is right. If DBG tries to shut it down it gets hosted in a country that won't give a crap about an American contract or IP rights.

[Baler]

The half wit with the broken speech is right. If DBG tries to shut it down it gets hosted in a country that won't give a crap about an American contract or IP rights.

Rogean spoils us with his connections and provides us with a top end server. I'd quit before playing on some shithole france server. (france being where many wow emu server are hosted)

Anyways darkbreak can't shut down p99 as per the contract which legally makes nilbog and rogean the owners. If they violated the contract I imagine some kind of court situation may happen. Which they wouldn't do.

[Swish]

Rogean spoils us with his connections and provides us with a top end server. I'd quit before playing on some shithole france server. (france being where many wow emu server are hosted)

Anyways darkbreak can't shut down p99 as per the contract which legally makes nilbog and rogean the owners. If they violated the contract I imagine some kind of court situation may happen. Which they wouldn't do.

Deybreak needs to either acquire some new IPs fast or develop something new, not sure that Planetside 2 sales on consoles really did much if anything to help them out :/

https://i.imgur.com/KcSmo0X.gif

[zodium]

daybreak may or may not shut down p99, as private companies are notoriously whimsical and unconcerned with laws

[Canelek]

Conspiracy theories are somewhat popular with some folks here.

[zodium]

what i'm saying is we need to nationalize everquest #eq4a

[Jimjam]

what i'm saying is we need to nationalize everquest #eq4a

Bradcare

[zodium]

evercare*

[Hoppkins_Wytchfinder]

Aren't those normal machinations of an EverQuest player?

Blimey. Ungrateful much.

THe majority of us are eternally grateful to Roegan and co for providing such an incredible experience. He owes us nothing, if you choose to use your time playing this its your business.

Play it or dont. Its that simple. He owes us no explanations, no favours and quite frankly your lucky he even bothered to respond to you.

[Sinistria]

I have enjoyed some time on P99 blue, and I appreciate the staff and playerbase. You are making all your legal protection conclusions on 4-year-old posts with no legal detail. I feel my questions are perfectly valid for a player looking to invest time into a character.

Good point. I think I will skip Green. Best of luck to you all, and I hope Epstein doesn't shut you down.

If you think of "investing" time is wasting while you have fun and enjoy time with others you should think of living is just a waste of time,
you are going to die anyway.

No matter how long the server is going to live, if i play for only 2 weeks and i had fun, it was two weeks of fun. Who cares.

Investing... You can't "invest" in a game like this, just if you are going to sell stuff via RMT.

Every time in this game is "wasted"
Only point is fun for time in it and meeting new people.

Obviously not your time of game and enjoyment like most others here have.

Good bye

[Hoppkins_Wytchfinder]

If you think of "investing" time is wasting while you have fun and enjoy time with others you should think of living is just a waste of time,
you are going to die anyway.

No matter how long the server is going to live, if i play for only 2 weeks and i had fun, it was two weeks of fun. Who cares.

Investing... You can't "invest" in a game like this, just if you are going to sell stuff via RMT.

Every time in this game is "wasted"
Only point is fun for time in it and meeting new people.

Obviously not your time of game and enjoyment like most others here have.

Good bye

Exactly. EA pull servers all the times for games people have paid for.

CoD could go down tomorrow and be perfectly within all laws and no one could do anything.

P1999 is free for christ sakes. If it went down 6 months from now i would be sad but i would still be grateful for all the GM's have done to keep it up and running. Still not time wasted.

[BlackBellamy]

daybreak may or may not shut down p99, as private companies are notoriously whimsical and unconcerned with laws

LOL yes so in your world a private company can just "shut off" stuff for other people, and companies operate according to the "whimsical decision making" model instead of rational governance in pursuit of profits, and also these companies are "unconcerned" with laws, which probably allows them to forego paying taxes and not worry about compliance and reporting and safety and discrimination and unfair hiring practices just like everyone else. I hope you're worried about the real threat here, which is that Mark Zuckerberg is going to shut off your internet connection and send a squad of ruffians to tune you up on a whim.

[pheerie]

I'm pretty sure you're role-playing a (troll) lawyer.

And this is not serious. Get over yourself.

And if you play and the game gets shut down so what? How is that getting screwed? The playing and interacting with others is the reward. I could give two squirrel farts about my gear & characters.

Heaven forbid I have to find another game or read more or create something of value.

Good point. I have already moved onto the phase of my life where my little free time seems better spent outside EverQuest, so my diatribe speaks more to that than it does to the viability of Green.

That being said, don't be surprised if this server gets Nostalrius'd.

[Nirgon]

I like that you are enjoying some role-playing, but this is serious, and if you bury your head in the sand, you could get royally screwed out of many hours of your life.

O man

*wipes his massive forehead*

You are one seriously foolish Antonican

[Deathrydar]

O man You are one seriously foolish Antonican

Be careful! We have no idea what his sexual orientation is and it would be foolish to assume.

[Secrets]

Nilbog and Rogean have literally been there in person with Daybreak employees, at the EverQuest Museum in San Diego. They had a section there where Project 1999 was displayed.

Holly Longdale has gone on record stating that she would rather see people interested in true classic EverQuest play on Project 1999 as they don't have the resources to provide a true classic experience.
John Smedley was the one who orchestrated the deal and every time a C&D went to his desk for legal approval, he'd stand up for EQEmu stating that they're just hyper fans of the game.

They're a lot more open than when they were Sony-owned.

This thread is fearmongering.

[Nirgon]

Be careful! We have no idea what his sexual orientation is and it would be foolish to assume.

Oh god the guy defending the spotlight candles?

Pour that Soylent out and meet me in the Erudin library on Friday to fix ur brain.

[Daliant17447]

Probably best if you don't play OP. Far too risky.

[loramin]

Nilbog and Rogean have literally been there in person with Daybreak employees, at the EverQuest Museum in San Diego. They had a section there where Project 1999 was displayed.

Holly Longdale has gone on record stating that she would rather see people interested in true classic EverQuest play on Project 1999 as they don't have the resources to provide a true classic experience.
John Smedley was the one who orchestrated the deal and every time a C&D went to his desk for legal approval, he'd stand up for EQEmu stating that they're just hyper fans of the game.

They're a lot more open than when they were Sony-owned.

This thread is fearmongering.

Great post, added to http://wiki.project1999.com/Daybreak_Game_Company :)

[pheerie]

Blimey. Ungrateful much.

THe majority of us are eternally grateful to Roegan and co for providing such an incredible experience. He owes us nothing, if you choose to use your time playing this its your business.

Play it or dont. Its that simple. He owes us no explanations, no favours and quite frankly your lucky he even bothered to respond to you.

I understand being grateful for this free service, but do you really expect anyone to believe you would not be upset if you invested most of your free leisure hours into this server over the next few months, and one Saturday morning, you go to login to your character, and the plug is pulled?

[cd288]

I'm not a lawyer either, but that guy is a corporate attorney. Maybe he can post back and answer me a question. Cause you see I was wondering, if I own a piece of software that sends out signals, and I send those signals to a guy who puts them in a giant calculator and sends them back to me, how is copyright involved? Because the guy with that calculator, he built that himself. And the client software, I have a receipt for that.

I'm not sure what your question is really. This analogy sort of misses the IP issue involved between P99 and Daybreak.

At any rate, I wasn't agreeing with OP that I think P99 is at risk of being shut down. I was just saying that Daybreak likely could if they wanted to, which they probably never would because P99 will never get to the level of causing an economic issue for Daybreak.

[Deathrydar]

Ya'll are feeding the troll...

[loramin]

Ya'll are feeding the troll...

Yeah, but at least we got some great staff quotes for the wiki, and now the next time anyone wants to wig out over this everyone can just link the Daybreak page (http://wiki.project1999.com/Daybreak_Game_Company) to them :D

[Deathrydar]

Yeah, but at least we got some great staff quotes for the wiki, and now the next time anyone wants to wig out over this everyone can just link the Daybreak page (http://wiki.project1999.com/Daybreak_Game_Company) to them :D

I see what you did there!

[Indicas]

I understand being grateful for this free service, but do you really expect anyone to believe you would not be upset if you invested most of your free leisure hours into this server over the next few months, and one Saturday morning, you go to login to your character, and the plug is pulled?
the server has been running for 10 years, why can't you get that through you're thick skull, DON"T PLAY here the community is already annoyed with you and you haven't even started.

[loramin]

I see what you did there!

:D

P.S. And in my dream world we'd have a wiki "answer" to all the popular trolls, so that whenever anyone starts trolling, instead of "feeding the troll" and getting the desired rise out of people, the troll would just get a bunch of wiki links.

I can dream ...

[Sinistria]

I understand being grateful for this free service, but do you really expect anyone to believe you would not be upset if you invested most of your free leisure hours into this server over the next few months, and one Saturday morning, you go to login to your character, and the plug is pulled?

Even IF that would happen, is that realy such a big problem to you?

Life is so full of shit that can happen to you
(believe me, i have been through some during the last 3 years)

But playing a game for having a good time and then can't play it anymore is maybe a bit sad but realy nothing to be worried about.

There will be other games and other opportunities (oh yeah, maybe even in RL) to have fun with.

Plus:
The chances being unplugged aren't that big atm, there seems to be an agreement with Daybreak.
Do you realy thing the staff would made such effords to keep this project alive for this long time just to see the plug pulled on morning?
You can be sure, they have better to do then working on a dead project.

[Jimjam]

I understand being grateful for this free service, but do you really expect anyone to believe you would not be upset if you invested most of your free leisure hours into this server over the next few months, and one Saturday morning, you go to login to your character, and the plug is pulled?

My most loved cousin passed away this summer. He was only in his 40s. The people he left behind included his daughter, her mom, his cat and all of us really. I was sad we lost him. I'm actually crying now as I type this.

Does that make me wish I never spent time with him? NO! It makes me wish we spent more together.

If someone is genuinely interested in p99, they decide not to play and later the project gets shut down? That person will have more regrets than someone who enjoyed it for what it was while they could.

Looks like this one is going to be a thanks Rogean.

[BlackBellamy]

I'm not sure what your question is really. This analogy sort of misses the IP issue involved between P99 and Daybreak.

At any rate, I wasn't agreeing with OP that I think P99 is at risk of being shut down. I was just saying that Daybreak likely could if they wanted to, which they probably never would because P99 will never get to the level of causing an economic issue for Daybreak.

You wrote "shut down the server due to the copyright violation"
And then I wrote "how is copyright involved?"

I'm not interested in a broad discussion of IP. I'm specifically asking about your use of the term "copyright" and how its relevant to this project.

[Videri]

There is nothing illegal about Project 1999 as long as no one is profiting from it.

[Llandris]

you would not be upset if you invested most of your free leisure hours into this server

Free hours you say? I would be FUMING

[pheerie]

There is nothing illegal about Project 1999 as long as no one is profiting from it.

Thanks for the blanket statement. I assume you are relying on P99 staff's word from an outdated agreement based on an entirely different server (blue) like everyone else? Or did you have facts to add?

[Deathrydar]

Remember kids:

[Immok]

lol @ someone concerned about wasting time in Everquest.

[BlackBellamy]

Thanks for the blanket statement. I assume you are relying on P99 staff's word from an outdated agreement based on an entirely different server (blue) like everyone else? Or did you have facts to add?

No, he is relying on a written opinion from me. I am an attorney and a former Superior Court judge and I consult on all legal matters regarding P1999 ("The Project"). I have sent Videri extensive documentation that allows him to make the claims he did. If you would like to have access to this documentation, please apply through the P99Legal link on the homepage.

[Deathrydar]

No, he is relying on a written opinion from me. I am an attorney and a former Superior Court judge and I consult on all legal matters regarding P1999 ("The Project"). I have sent Videri extensive documentation that allows him to make the claims he did. If you would like to have access to this documentation, please apply through the P99Legal link on the homepage.

Tell him, SteveDave!

[Haloren]

I'd be more worried about that place that serves STAYKE and LOYBSTA for a LEEMATED TOYME shutting down and there are no more bloomin' onions, veeshan help us all.

As with leveling in the game, no matter what happens just enjoy the ride. But, maybe offline games are more your thing, that way no one can shut you down!

[Spock2020]

If we think of everything that can happen we wouldn't be doing anything. Welcome to life lol.

[cd288]

You wrote "shut down the server due to the copyright violation"
And then I wrote "how is copyright involved?"

I'm not interested in a broad discussion of IP. I'm specifically asking about your use of the term "copyright" and how its relevant to this project.

Ah gotcha. Sorry if I was unclear. Prior to the agreement being put into place between P99 and Daybreak, P99 had no legal right to use Daybreak's IP (i.e. the EverQuest name/brand and the game). At that time, technically Daybreak could have sued because they could argue that P99 was misappropriating their IP (i.e. copyright violation) and essentially stealing their customers away from Daybreak's product by using Daybreak's IP to provide EverQuest through Velious for free. The reason I brought that up was in the context of discussing the legal agreement and how I would not be surprised if there are some pretty favorable Daybreak terms in there because they had more leverage in the situation than P99 did.

Of course, there could be a number of arguments P99 could've made in defense had Daybreak sued them, but none of them are sure bets and that would've also been expensive to litigate.

[Dolalin]

I spent a few hundred £ on krono for Agnarr when it launched. Lots of p99 people went to Agnarr and probably did the same.

P99 isn't competition, it's a loss leader.

[fadetree]

calling all young doctors, thread needs moar opinion

[loramin]

At that time, technically Daybreak could have sued because they could argue that P99 was misappropriating their IP (i.e. copyright violation) and essentially stealing their customers away from Daybreak's product by using Daybreak's IP to provide EverQuest through Velious for free.

Young lawyer, perhaps you could clarify for me: what specific copyrighted (not patented or trademarked or whatever) works does Project 1999 infringe on?

Bonus question: can you explain the difference between copyright and other forms of intellectual property (just in a "prove you get it" kind of way; not looking for a treatise)?

[Indicas]

Young lawyer, perhaps you could clarify for me: what specific copyrighted (not patented or trademarked or whatever) works does Project 1999 infringe on?

Bonus question: can you explain the difference between copyright and other forms of intellectual property (just in a "prove you get it" kind of way; not looking for a treatise)?
and you have to answer in the form of who is, or what is everytime

[Videri]

Thanks for the blanket statement. I assume you are relying on P99 staff's word from an outdated agreement based on an entirely different server (blue) like everyone else? Or did you have facts to add?

Why would Project 1999 be illegal? Is someone profiting from someone else’s intellectual property?

[loramin]

and you have to answer in the form of who is, or what is everytime

https://i.imgur.com/yg9ZrLU.gif

https://i.imgur.com/jUfBNx9.gif

https://i.imgur.com/euptaOk.gif

[Mead]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1884786&postcount=35

might not be a troll

old post but they still raiding live progression

[Uldarre]

You have a very inadequate understanding of our legal system and how contracts work with companies and their ownerships.

Indeed.

[BlackBellamy]

Young lawyer, perhaps you could clarify for me: what specific copyrighted (not patented or trademarked or whatever) works does Project 1999 infringe on?

Bonus question: can you explain the difference between copyright and other forms of intellectual property (just in a "prove you get it" kind of way; not looking for a treatise)?

I tried to clarify what he meant a couple of times and it's apparent based on his use of the term that he's not clear on what copyright is. Most people aren't.

A copyright is....wait for it....the right to copy. When I produce a work, only I have the right to make additional copies. So when someone buys the EQ discs from Amazon, they're not violating any copyright. They are legally acquiring an authorized copy. And when they run that software on their system, there is no unauthorized copying going on. So far no copyright violation on the front end, right? Cool.

Now let's examine the back end. The game client sends out signals and receives signals. It needs these in order to function. A typical outbound communication would be a keypress and a typical response would be lets say "you are too far away to attack". When the game was live, the calculations of whether the player had a weapon equipped, whether they had a mob targeted, whether it was in range, those all took place on a server that was running copyrighted software that no one outside Verant/Sony was authorized to have. Because they did not wish to copy the code (and probably didn't even have access to it), the developers of EQEmu used reverse engineering. They observed what the copyrighted software did and they they wrote their own code to approximate the same responses. This kind of process is detailed in Sega Enterprises v. Accolade where Accolade wired a decompiler to the console’s circuitry while loading three different, licensed games. It then compared the disassembled code in order to ascertain the interface specifications for the console. The Ninth Circuit agreed with Accolade that there were no copyright violations. Similarly in Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix the courts agreed with Connectix and held that there was value of permitting consumers to play PlayStation games on new platforms.

Because the user is running authorized software and the server is running non-proprietary code, where is the copying of the work?

Aight, so that's done, I know someone will confuse this with trademark, let's do that next. Ok, so a trademark is...as before....a mark used in trade. So for example, I have a business that makes bricks, and I put the Apple logo on each brick. Customers are likely to be confused about the origin of my bricks, and I would essentially be profiting from the goodwill that Apple has generated over many decades. We'll get back to customer confusion in a sec. Now, the only trademarks that appear in the P1999 experience are the many logos and text in the game client (all of which are authorized uses), and the word "Everquest" as it appears on the p1999 site. The site does not use any logos or graphics or any other trademark other than that one word, which is a trademark of Daybreak (formerly etc etc). However, the courts have held that a business can use trademarks in informative or descriptive ways. This is called nominative fair use. Like for example if I run a car repair shop I can have a giant sign outside that says "Bring your Chrysler, Ford, and Toyota here for the best service!" because even though all three are trademarks, I am representing the services that I perform. So now back to customer confusion, which is the main test for trademark violations. Are customers likely to be deceived into thinking the product or service actually originates with the trademark holder? In P1999s case, it's very clear that there is no confusion possible. The welcome text and obvious disclaimers on the site make that clear. The fact that P1999 is a provider of an Everquest experience (or service) is informative and is allowed. I would also point out the courts heavily weigh the sophistication of the purchasers of the products in determining nominative fair use, and I don't need to point out that we are all extremely sophisticated here. I saw the screenshot of Chortles in a smoking jacket (although as usual he was not wearing pants) and I myself have been thinking of taking up Cognac.

Anyway, can we put copyright and trademark to rest please?

Now, I'm not arguing that Daybreak or another entity can't sue for the above. You can always file ruinous legal actions against small players and hope to prevail on the lawfare aspect rather than the facts. This is done all the time and demonstrates the type of values held by those who favor those stratagems (See Nintendo vs. pretty much anybody.)

I am also not arguing that the IP holders could not explore another, more viable way to defend their property, namely 17 U.S.C. 1201, the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA we all know and love, which is a tactic Blizzard used (among others) in prevailing in Blizzard v. BnetD. I am not informed enough to know what kinds of authentication needs to be bypassed to make P1999 work, but if those conditions did apply then to me this would be the most persuasive way for the holders to reach an agreement with possible infringers, and while I can only speculate as to the Daybreak/P1999 agreement, I would not be surprised if those advising P1999 saw this avenue as the greatest threat (rather than any copyright or trademark issues).

I just wanted to explain copyright and trademarks because I see these terms bandied about like they are synonymous, or just lumped in with IP. IP has many categories, like trade secrets, patents, etc and while copyright and trademarks are part of IP, each of these categories is very distinct and operates under different written and case law. I would love if someone could correct or clarify anything I wrote because I'm a big fan of studing how intellectual property laws reflect sociological trends and I'm always looking for more.

A final note before someone mentions contract law. If you buy any modern game, you aren't buying shit. You're leasing it. Go ahead, read any EULA. You are granted a license, hereby revocable at any time, to use the software as long as we feel like it, not a minute longer. Go ahead, check it out, similar language is in 100% of modern day EULAs. So if you are a player and run such client software when your license is revoked, you are breaking the law. And if someone runs a service that allows others to break the law, they get Napstered. However, back in 1999, when you bought software, you owned it forever. This is why no one is violating any contracts here.

Man, I am drunk as fuck off this fine Cognac.

[Uldarre]

No, he is relying on a written opinion from me. I am an attorney and a former Superior Court judge and I consult on all legal matters regarding P1999 ("The Project"). I have sent Videri extensive documentation that allows him to make the claims he did. If you would like to have access to this documentation, please apply through the P99Legal link on the homepage.

I tried to clarify what he meant a couple of times and it's apparent based on his use of the term that he's not clear on what copyright is. Most people aren't.

A copyright is....wait for it....the right to copy. When I produce a work, only I have the right to make additional copies. So when someone buys the EQ discs from Amazon, they're not violating any copyright. They are legally acquiring an authorized copy. And when they run that software on their system, there is no unauthorized copying going on. So far no copyright violation on the front end, right? Cool.

Now let's examine the back end. The game client sends out signals and receives signals. It needs these in order to function. A typical outbound communication would be a keypress and a typical response would be lets say "you are too far away to attack". When the game was live, the calculations of whether the player had a weapon equipped, whether they had a mob targeted, whether it was in range, those all took place on a server that was running copyrighted software that no one outside Verant/Sony was authorized to have. Because they did not wish to copy the code (and probably didn't even have access to it), the developers of EQEmu used reverse engineering. They observed what the copyrighted software did and they they wrote their own code to approximate the same responses. This kind of process is detailed in Sega Enterprises v. Accolade where Accolade wired a decompiler to the console’s circuitry while loading three different, licensed games. It then compared the disassembled code in order to ascertain the interface specifications for the console. The Ninth Circuit agreed with Accolade that there were no copyright violations. Similarly in Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix the courts agreed with Connectix and held that there was value of permitting consumers to play PlayStation games on new platforms.

Because the user is running authorized software and the server is running non-proprietary code, where is the copying of the work?

Aight, so that's done, I know someone will confuse this with trademark, let's do that next. Ok, so a trademark is...as before....a mark used in trade. So for example, I have a business that makes bricks, and I put the Apple logo on each brick. Customers are likely to be confused about the origin of my bricks, and I would essentially be profiting from the goodwill that Apple has generated over many decades. We'll get back to customer confusion in a sec. Now, the only trademarks that appear in the P1999 experience are the many logos and text in the game client (all of which are authorized uses), and the word "Everquest" as it appears on the p1999 site. The site does not use any logos or graphics or any other trademark other than that one word, which is a trademark of Daybreak (formerly etc etc). However, the courts have held that a business can use trademarks in informative or descriptive ways. This is called nominative fair use. Like for example if I run a car repair shop I can have a giant sign outside that says "Bring your Chrysler, Ford, and Toyota here for the best service!" because even though all three are trademarks, I am representing the services that I perform. So now back to customer confusion, which is the main test for trademark violations. Are customers likely to be deceived into thinking the product or service actually originates with the trademark holder? In P1999s case, it's very clear that there is no confusion possible. The welcome text and obvious disclaimers on the site make that clear. The fact that P1999 is a provider of an Everquest experience (or service) is informative and is allowed. I would also point out the courts heavily weigh the sophistication of the purchasers of the products in determining nominative fair use, and I don't need to point out that we are all extremely sophisticated here. I saw the screenshot of Chortles in a smoking jacket (although as usual he was not wearing pants) and I myself have been thinking of taking up Cognac.

Anyway, can we put copyright and trademark to rest please?

Now, I'm not arguing that Daybreak or another entity can't sue for the above. You can always file ruinous legal actions against small players and hope to prevail on the lawfare aspect rather than the facts. This is done all the time and demonstrates the type of values held by those who favor those stratagems (See Nintendo vs. pretty much anybody.)

I am also not arguing that the IP holders could not explore another, more viable way to defend their property, namely 17 U.S.C. 1201, the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA we all know and love, which is a tactic Blizzard used (among others) in prevailing in Blizzard v. BnetD. I am not informed enough to know what kinds of authentication needs to be bypassed to make P1999 work, but if those conditions did apply then to me this would be the most persuasive way for the holders to reach an agreement with possible infringers, and while I can only speculate as to the Daybreak/P1999 agreement, I would not be surprised if those advising P1999 saw this avenue as the greatest threat (rather than any copyright or trademark issues).

I just wanted to explain copyright and trademarks because I see these terms bandied about like they are synonymous, or just lumped in with IP. IP has many categories, like trade secrets, patents, etc and while copyright and trademarks are part of IP, each of these categories is very distinct and operates under different written and case law. I would love if someone could correct or clarify anything I wrote because I'm a big fan of studing how intellectual property laws reflect sociological trends and I'm always looking for more.

A final note before someone mentions contract law. If you buy any modern game, you aren't buying shit. You're leasing it. Go ahead, read any EULA. You are granted a license, hereby revocable at any time, to use the software as long as we feel like it, not a minute longer. Go ahead, check it out, similar language is in 100% of modern day EULAs. So if you are a player and run such client software when your license is revoked, you are breaking the law. And if someone runs a service that allows others to break the law, they get Napstered. However, back in 1999, when you bought software, you owned it forever. This is why no one is violating any contracts here.

Man, I am drunk as fuck off this fine Cognac.

God damn.

Respect. That is all. :)

[BlackBellamy]

Respect. That is all. :)

I'm definitely not an attorney. I have been in court many times though. Which is probably why I'm not an attorney. I digress.

Someone mentioned stealing customers, which is tortui..tortuit..help me fucking spellchecker...tortious interference. Like if one party takes action that prevents others from forming business relationships with others. Someone could claim that we were all like man if P1999 wasn't so cool we would totally give Daybreak our money instead.

But that person would be totally wrong. Because not a single person here would do that. No one wants to look at that halfway shit. We're either all down for the lowest resolution, or you can all follow me to GW2 and we could roll Norn's and sex each other up. Look at this shit. Look at it. Man, I was never so hot for myself. That's my Mesmer. She has clothing, but I take it off for the char selection screen so she can stand there and look awesome.

https://imgur.com/6Lwythm.jpg

[cd288]

I tried to clarify what he meant a couple of times and it's apparent based on his use of the term that he's not clear on what copyright is. Most people aren't.

A copyright is....wait for it....the right to copy. When I produce a work, only I have the right to make additional copies. So when someone buys the EQ discs from Amazon, they're not violating any copyright. They are legally acquiring an authorized copy. And when they run that software on their system, there is no unauthorized copying going on. So far no copyright violation on the front end, right? Cool.

Now let's examine the back end. The game client sends out signals and receives signals. It needs these in order to function. A typical outbound communication would be a keypress and a typical response would be lets say "you are too far away to attack". When the game was live, the calculations of whether the player had a weapon equipped, whether they had a mob targeted, whether it was in range, those all took place on a server that was running copyrighted software that no one outside Verant/Sony was authorized to have. Because they did not wish to copy the code (and probably didn't even have access to it), the developers of EQEmu used reverse engineering. They observed what the copyrighted software did and they they wrote their own code to approximate the same responses. This kind of process is detailed in Sega Enterprises v. Accolade where Accolade wired a decompiler to the console’s circuitry while loading three different, licensed games. It then compared the disassembled code in order to ascertain the interface specifications for the console. The Ninth Circuit agreed with Accolade that there were no copyright violations. Similarly in Sony Computer Entertainment v. Connectix the courts agreed with Connectix and held that there was value of permitting consumers to play PlayStation games on new platforms.

Because the user is running authorized software and the server is running non-proprietary code, where is the copying of the work?

Aight, so that's done, I know someone will confuse this with trademark, let's do that next. Ok, so a trademark is...as before....a mark used in trade. So for example, I have a business that makes bricks, and I put the Apple logo on each brick. Customers are likely to be confused about the origin of my bricks, and I would essentially be profiting from the goodwill that Apple has generated over many decades. We'll get back to customer confusion in a sec. Now, the only trademarks that appear in the P1999 experience are the many logos and text in the game client (all of which are authorized uses), and the word "Everquest" as it appears on the p1999 site. The site does not use any logos or graphics or any other trademark other than that one word, which is a trademark of Daybreak (formerly etc etc). However, the courts have held that a business can use trademarks in informative or descriptive ways. This is called nominative fair use. Like for example if I run a car repair shop I can have a giant sign outside that says "Bring your Chrysler, Ford, and Toyota here for the best service!" because even though all three are trademarks, I am representing the services that I perform. So now back to customer confusion, which is the main test for trademark violations. Are customers likely to be deceived into thinking the product or service actually originates with the trademark holder? In P1999s case, it's very clear that there is no confusion possible. The welcome text and obvious disclaimers on the site make that clear. The fact that P1999 is a provider of an Everquest experience (or service) is informative and is allowed. I would also point out the courts heavily weigh the sophistication of the purchasers of the products in determining nominative fair use, and I don't need to point out that we are all extremely sophisticated here. I saw the screenshot of Chortles in a smoking jacket (although as usual he was not wearing pants) and I myself have been thinking of taking up Cognac.

Anyway, can we put copyright and trademark to rest please?

Now, I'm not arguing that Daybreak or another entity can't sue for the above. You can always file ruinous legal actions against small players and hope to prevail on the lawfare aspect rather than the facts. This is done all the time and demonstrates the type of values held by those who favor those stratagems (See Nintendo vs. pretty much anybody.)

I am also not arguing that the IP holders could not explore another, more viable way to defend their property, namely 17 U.S.C. 1201, the anti-circumvention provisions of the DMCA we all know and love, which is a tactic Blizzard used (among others) in prevailing in Blizzard v. BnetD. I am not informed enough to know what kinds of authentication needs to be bypassed to make P1999 work, but if those conditions did apply then to me this would be the most persuasive way for the holders to reach an agreement with possible infringers, and while I can only speculate as to the Daybreak/P1999 agreement, I would not be surprised if those advising P1999 saw this avenue as the greatest threat (rather than any copyright or trademark issues).

I just wanted to explain copyright and trademarks because I see these terms bandied about like they are synonymous, or just lumped in with IP. IP has many categories, like trade secrets, patents, etc and while copyright and trademarks are part of IP, each of these categories is very distinct and operates under different written and case law. I would love if someone could correct or clarify anything I wrote because I'm a big fan of studing how intellectual property laws reflect sociological trends and I'm always looking for more.

A final note before someone mentions contract law. If you buy any modern game, you aren't buying shit. You're leasing it. Go ahead, read any EULA. You are granted a license, hereby revocable at any time, to use the software as long as we feel like it, not a minute longer. Go ahead, check it out, similar language is in 100% of modern day EULAs. So if you are a player and run such client software when your license is revoked, you are breaking the law. And if someone runs a service that allows others to break the law, they get Napstered. However, back in 1999, when you bought software, you owned it forever. This is why no one is violating any contracts here.

Man, I am drunk as fuck off this fine Cognac.

You have a pretty solid understanding of the law, but the application of the trademark analysis isn’t fully correct in this case. While customer confusion is certainly a factor, it’s not as simple as that. For example, I can’t create a store that completely mirrors a Dunkin Donuts store and then like tell people at the register this isn’t actually Dunkin Donuts and be totally fine. Just because someone might then be able to know it’s not an official Dunkin Donuts doesn’t save you from a violation/infringement if its otherwise basically the same product. If I had an unlimited subscription to Westlaw or Lexis I could pull some cases for you but alas my company gets charged based on my usage of it lol

[BlackBellamy]

Just because someone might then be able to know it’s not an official Dunkin Donuts doesn’t save you from a violation/infringement if its otherwise basically the same product.l

I see, thank you! That's an interesting angle of attack, or defense rather. I'll check it out now that you pointed me in that direction.

edit: You're gracious in your analysis considering my snark. I appreciate that.

[Baler]

What is happening in this thread.
https://i.imgur.com/I0Pn1gI.gif

[Khikik]

Heh... People who play EQ worried about "wasting their time"

(Lizard laughing)

[cd288]

What is happening in this thread.
https://i.imgur.com/I0Pn1gI.gif

Lol it’s sort of been derailed from OP’s point....which I suppose could be a good thing? Lol

[BlackBellamy]

been derailed

I am so there for you!

https://imgur.com/FIvVO2O.gif

[whitebandit]

All of this talk about Rule Lawyers over the last decade, None of us ever thought that there might be real lawyers out there...

[Baler]

All of this talk about Rule Lawyers over the last decade, None of us ever thought that there might be real lawyers out there...

Guilds on p99 have hired or used real laywer(s) to pick through the rules on p99 and raid rules.
not a joke

[Jimjam]

Genuine question:
Game mechanics aren't copyrightable anyway, right? Thats why there is so much cloneware games?

[Invalid_Bard]

I can imagine the staff knows a bit more about the contract they have with daybreak and the terms that go with it. But hey, with the combined brain power in this thread I'm sure y'all will save the day!

[cd288]

I am so there for you!

https://imgur.com/FIvVO2O.gif

Lol

[nilbog]

Amazing thread.

[bubur]

do you really expect anyone to believe you would not be upset if you invested most of your free leisure hours into this server over the next few months, and one Saturday morning, you go to login to your character, and the plug is pulled?

not gonna lie i dont mind

i played beta for the last week+ to 50 knowing itll get deleted... also ive been on every prog server that sony and daybreak have collectively launched, only to leave them all in the dust and never look at them again... and ill play green and i know ill leave for whatever pvp server they open... until that pvp server isnt fun at some point years down the road and then ill play green 2.0

and then ill do it again, and again, and again, and again

and i wont be upset about losing any of it. except maybe when i look back on my life in 30 years but we'll c

[Arcticflava]

I am interested in the Green Server, but I am concerned that the legal agreement outlined in the "operating under legal permission" link on the homepage is outdated. This agreement was reached during Sony ownership, not Daybreak. How can I be confident that I will not be wasting time playing on Green without a new agreement in place? I can envision the new owners of EverQuest catching wind of this new, non-sanctioned "TLP", and quickly nullifying any prior SOE agreement and shutting this down.

Either drink the koolaid or don't, but literally noone cares about your commitment issues.

[Sinistria]

I have been in court many times though.


What was your crime? ;)


But that person would be totally wrong. Because not a single person here would do that. No one wants to look at that halfway shit. We're either all down for the lowest resolution, or you can all follow me to GW2 and we could roll Norn's and sex each other up. Look at this shit. Look at it. Man, I was never so hot for myself. That's my Mesmer. She has clothing, but I take it off for the char selection screen so she can stand there and look awesome.



I realy like the GW2 grafix.
Have to log in there sometime again, but not the next few weeks.
(until they shut down green like OP predicted us.

Next week holiday is safe.
My brother promised to cook a huge pot of chili for me to scent my cellar with.

It will be awsome.

[evilution]

Everyone stay away, I have it on good authority that the CIA is going to raid P99's corporate headquarters and arrest all players a few days after green launch.

[fadetree]

I think he's gone, but I'd like to thank the OP. Strong contender for Best Thread in the category Outraged Complaining That Backfires 2019, and just maaaaaybe for Most Entertaining.

[Sinistria]

.

[pheerie]

I think he's gone, but I'd like to thank the OP. Strong contender for Best Thread in the category Outraged Complaining That Backfires 2019, and just maaaaaybe for Most Entertaining.

Still here, and will probably play around on Green, but won't take it too serious. Thanks for all the feedback. This community is very admirable for its self-defense, whether it be legit, well thought out analysis posts, or whiteknight coolaid-drinking posts. :D

[Spock2020]

With all that is happening with daybreak I think they have plenty of other things to worry about that an emulated server anyway.Not sure how long until they sell some of their ip.

[Hoppkins_Wytchfinder]

Still here, and will probably play around on Green, but won't take it too serious. Thanks for all the feedback. This community is very admirable for its self-defense, whether it be legit, well thought out analysis posts, or whiteknight coolaid-drinking posts. :D

Thanks Mr armchair lawyer man

[solleks]

Still here, and will probably play around on Green, but won't take it too serious. Thanks for all the feedback. This community is very admirable for its self-defense, whether it be legit, well thought out analysis posts, or whiteknight coolaid-drinking posts. :D

if you spent all the time and anxiety you've wasted thinking about this stupid shit you would probably be level 60 so i hope you dont have a heart attack/ anxiety attack thinking about an emulated everquest server. best wishes.

[Arcticflava]

Still here, and will probably play around on Green, but won't take it too serious. Thanks for all the feedback. This community is very admirable for its self-defense, whether it be legit, well thought out analysis posts, or whiteknight coolaid-drinking posts. :D

Thanks for the laughs! :p

[Sinistria]

Still here, and will probably play around on Green, but won't take it too serious.

[loramin]

Good point. I think I will skip Green. Best of luck to you all, and I hope Epstein doesn't shut you down.

Still here, and will probably play around on Green, but won't take it too serious. Thanks for all the feedback. This community is very admirable for its self-defense, whether it be legit, well thought out analysis posts, or whiteknight coolaid-drinking posts. :D

Called it on page #4 ... I want my $5 ;)

$5 says he winds up creating a character here anyway: we all know the addictive lure of ...

https://i.imgur.com/E315nhG.jpg

[Fammaden]

In three months he'll have disappeared along with the rest of the tourists, progression racers, and legacy item farmers...then reappear a week ahead of Kunark to make some new dumbshit thread. See you then!

[Frug]

> I will not be wasting time playing on Green

Too late.

[aspomwell]

Rerailing it back onto the trademark thing, the way it was explained to me was this:

If i wanted to make a company called Apple and started making bricks, it wouldn't be a trademark problem because no one associates Apple Computer with bricks. As long as I don't use Apple's logo then there's no problem.

Of course, that's completely different than the fair use defense P99 uses to display Everquests logo...

[pheerie]

if you spent all the time and anxiety you've wasted thinking about this stupid shit you would probably be level 60 so i hope you dont have a heart attack/ anxiety attack thinking about an emulated everquest server. best wishes.

I feel like the time I took thinking about this issue was very minimal, measured in single or double-digit minutes. Compare that to the time I would lose if I chose to go all-in on P99 Green and make it my primary hobby, and the server was shut down a month or 2 later, and maybe you can see where I am coming from.

[solleks]

I feel like you are not being honest with yourself or this community. Come clean deceiver.

[pheerie]

I feel like you are not being honest with yourself or this community. Come clean deceiver.

I know you are joking, and this thread is being treated as a troll attempt, and that is OK. As hard as it is to believe, EQ is not pac-man. Time spent and progress do matter. Anyone who says otherwise is only fooling themselves.

[Jimjam]

Gonna make more progress in that 2 months if you play than if you don't. Progress is important!

[pheerie]

Confirmed this is a legit issue. See you all around.

[Jimjam]

Looking forward to playing with you pal, glad you came round to our perspective!

If it does all burn down, I hope you recover from the loss quickly <3

[pheerie]

Looking forward to playing with you pal, glad you came round to our perspective!

If it does all burn down, I hope you recover from the loss quickly <3

I understand and appreciate your statement!

[Hoppkins_Wytchfinder]

Confirmed this is a legit issue. See you all around.

Bye Phoenix Wright, missing you already <3

[pheerie]

Bye Phoenix Wright, missing you already <3

I had to Google your obscure reference for context. What did I learn from said Google? No one gives a fuck about your obscure anime reference except you.

[pheerie]

Bye Phoenix Wright, missing you already <3

In before you snarkily explain how I don't understand your inside joke

[bubur]

In before you snarkily explain how I don't understand your inside joke

oo oo me. i want to

phoenix wright is a popular video game featuring tongue-in-cheek video game lawyers that relies on satirical tropes like lines of logic or behaviors that a young person might expect a lawyer to exhibit. but basically everyone except the character itself, who takes it very seriously, sees its a joke and can enjoy it for its antics

interpretations are my own. love u pheerie but lighten up will ya

[Shrubwise]

You're right don't play, tell anyone else you know not to bother either.