Is it me or does Pantheon look like crap?

[Samadhi]

I have not followed Pantheon in a long time, but many of the graphics in it look worse than WoW or even old EQ2 graphics and the styles are reminiscent of the updated models of Luclin era. I remember the biggest changes were to Trolls and Ogres changing them from humorous, yet fearsome creatures, to simple brutes.

I still do not get why Brad made the game with Unity. Unity is so clunky. Regardless I am still not convinced the game will be released. I remember the kickstarter for it in 2004. IS it even in BETA 1 yet?

[feniin]

I don't think it's even in Alpha yet. Never getting released.

[Samadhi]

I don't think it's even in Alpha yet. Never getting released.

Beats me they used to give regularly monthly reports now it is like ever 3 months or less....

[Baler]

poor sirken was hyped for this.
:(
"last hope in mmos"

[Samadhi]

I am not so sure of that.... besides there is so much in Everquest I never did to keep me interested for a long time in P1999.

[pink grapefruit]

My complaint is that the models are not very fluid in their movement, whether when running around or swinging weapons or w/e. WoW models were much more fluid in 2004 than Pantheon is in 2019, and this really affects the feel of a game. Honestly it's hard to play EQ again after enjoying the smooth world of wow classic...

[Sinistria]

I am wondering why they don't handle it like many others games today:

Give an early access:

People can play, be part of the community and they can do changes acc. the experiences in the alpha-phase.

Many of those games died but the forest or 7DtD worked fine i think.
I mean 7DtD is still alpha but i had so many hours of platime even that it is an alpha.

They would earn a lot of money selling early access accounts.

Just what i am wondering about.

[Samadhi]

My complaint is that the models are not very fluid in their movement, whether when running around or swinging weapons or w/e. WoW models were much more fluid in 2004 than Pantheon is in 2019, and this really affects the feel of a game. Honestly it's hard to play EQ again after enjoying the smooth world of wow classic...

Well that is what I mean the Luclin character models were a little clunky. Polygonically they were better but most lacked the style of the originals and they were kinda clunky.

I have not tried WoW classic, but frankly it is not that hard. In great part it is about the gameplay not the graphics and they are not that bad. Go try EQ live, those are graphics to cringe at.

[Mblake81]

looks like Titanium
no style or substance. A couple chat boxes, a hot bar, health bar and widescreen.
/frown at the race selections
/hardpass
https://i.imgur.com/JSlSmbb.jpg
.
.
.
https://i.imgur.com/i0IPWj5.png

[Samadhi]

looks like Titanium
no style or substance. A couple chat boxes, a hot bar, health bar and widescreen.
/frown at the race selections
/hardpass
https://i.imgur.com/JSlSmbb.jpg
.
.
.
https://i.imgur.com/i0IPWj5.png

Yeah the classes are 100% the same as vanilla EQ. The races 3 of them are EXACTLY the same jsut different colors. Their halflings are NOT halflings. Their gnomes are NOT gnomes. Their ogres look more like simple brutes. And why so few races?

[Mblake81]

Yeah the classes are 100% the same as vanilla EQ. The races 3 of them are EXACTLY the same jsut different colors. Their halflings are NOT halflings. Their gnomes are NOT gnomes. Their ogres look more like simple brutes. And why so few races?

I am surprised Vah-shir cat and Pepe froglok didn't make the cut, especially in this roflgame market with a splash of Mass Effect. Redditors will probably love it though, especially if they add in rage comic emotes and whatever the new trendy dance emotes are (for a nominal mtx fee)

I am waiting on the DLC that adds in hobbits carrying Halo: Combat Evolved shotguns.

[AegnorP99]

I don't think it's even in Alpha yet. Never getting released.

[solleks]

More excited for Rogean Nilbog eq1 custom content than Pantheon at this point

[Samadhi]

More excited for Rogean Nilbog eq1 custom content than Pantheon at this point

I hear you on that....

[Donkey Hotay]

Imagine that you are a has-been game developer who made his bones from a hacky mishmash of ideas you borrowed from MUDs and tabletop games. Your ego grossly inflated, you started living the rockstar life only to find that the industry quickly copied and streamlined your janky prototype, leaving you forgotten among the ruins of your stillborn vanity projects. Now that you're reduced to visiting conventions for pill money, you decide to borrow another idea; you'll crowdfund a pension plan project! Now your opioids are guaranteed until Reddit dies.

[Samadhi]

Imagine that you are a has-been game developer who made his bones from a hacky mishmash of ideas you borrowed from MUDs and tabletop games. Your ego grossly inflated, you started living the rockstar life only to find that the industry quickly copied and streamlined your janky prototype, leaving you forgotten among the ruins of your stillborn vanity projects. Now that you're reduced to visiting conventions for pill money, you decide to borrow another idea; you'll crowdfund a pension plan project! Now your opioids are guaranteed until Reddit dies.

Donkey are you by chance from Rerolled or Fires of Heaven? That is stuff they always said.

[Donkey Hotay]

Nope, just a cynical nobody who likes to observe pointless things.

You're right about how Pantheon looks; it's generic as hell. If you watch a stream of the alpha with the sound off, you'd have a hard time naming the game being played. If you turn the sound on, you realize the developers all have potential as ambassadors to Ghana because they excel at talking for hours about absolutely nothing pertinent. The entire project radiates SCAM! in neon pulses yet the soyboys keep on donating.

[Samadhi]

Well Fires of Heaven for those who do not know was Brads old Everquest guild. Brad McQuaid AkA Aradune.

[Jimjam]

Its not just you.

Both you AND Pantheon look like crap.

Hope this helps!

I have no idea what Pantheon looks like

[Samadhi]

Its not just you.

Both you AND Pantheon look like crap.

Hope this helps!

I have no idea what Pantheon looks like

Ahh, not sure how it makes me look like crap but whatever :p

Shame I thought Pantheon had hope.

[Jimjam]

Aw sweetheart i was just making banter, you don't look bad from your posts, tbh i was implying you're ugly, a statement on which i have no evidence to support my case!

[Samadhi]

LOL got ya.

[Donkey Hotay]

HAHA JimJam has empathy. What a cuck.

[eadric]

Pantheon was always vaporware. During the kickstarter campaigns they did years ago, they made it clear (to me) that they were just looking for nostalgic EQ fans to support them living it up in SoCal, while they "developed" the "next EQ". Feel bad for all those who gave them money.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

https://i.imgur.com/i0IPWj5.png

[Samadhi]

Pantheon was always vaporware. During the kickstarter campaigns they did years ago, they made it clear (to me) that they were just looking for nostalgic EQ fans to support them living it up in SoCal, while they "developed" the "next EQ". Feel bad for all those who gave them money.

OH I did I gave them $300.... I got it all back by threatening to sue when Brad lost his team. I know people that donated thousands.

[Donkey Hotay]

I'm never binding you again, Lulz.

[Samadhi]

I'm never binding you again, Lulz.

Ill bind myself then. :P

[Donkey Hotay]

Ill bind myself then. :P


*did Samadhi mistake Lulz as an emote*
*or is Samadhi Lulz's sockpuppet*

[Zeboim]

Yeah those idiots, I can't believe they fell for it.


uh, anybody want to buy a star citizen account?

[branamil]

Ya'll got scammed lmbo

[loramin]

*did Samadhi mistake Lulz as an emote*
*or is Samadhi Lulz's sockpuppet*

Lulz has another sock puppet account (and he can't even keep track of which one he's on)? :eek: I am SHOCKED, SHOCKED I tell you!

[Chortles Snort|eS]

Pic related: itS loRamiN

https://i.imgur.com/UaLpJOK.jpg




**Me 2 buSy IRL to soCkp

[pink grapefruit]

ooops wrong acct ignore above post

[Mblake81]

Star Citizen with Elf fish people.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

https://i.imgur.com/sqQlid7.jpg

[Donkey Hotay]

10char

[Chortles Snort|eS]

LOL 😆

[solleks]

He just loves his weird hat

[Jibartik]

looks like Titanium
no style or substance. A couple chat boxes, a hot bar, health bar and widescreen.
/frown at the race selections
/hardpass
https://i.imgur.com/JSlSmbb.jpg
.
.
.
https://i.imgur.com/i0IPWj5.png

lol that spellbook is wack I made one better than that and I sell shoes for a living wtf are they doing over there.

[Jimjam]

Jibartik I just want to say i loved you in Married with Children! Is your daughter still single?

[Jibartik]

She married that damn teenager and they went to NYC then he got a part on some new TV show and he dumped her!

[feniin]

Well Fires of Heaven for those who do not know was Brads old Everquest guild. Brad McQuaid AkA Aradune.

You drunk?

[PieOats]

Ya'll got scammed lmbo

prude.

[Cecily]

Pantheon has always looked like shit and will continue to do so until it vanishes in a cloud of cocaine.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

SnortleD

[Patriam1066]

Pantheon has always looked like shit and will continue to do so until it vanishes in a cloud of cocaine.

I liked Vanguard, so for that reason I was hopeful. I didn’t donate, and was not thinking it would ever be released, however. Kinda sucks if they just robbed all those who supported them and don’t release anything

[Ennewi]

More than half the people posting in this thread.

https://youtu.be/kRRK4loO6xQ

[Canelek]

Cloud of cocaine? I can work with that, Stephen-King-Director-style.

[Baler]

Cloud of cocaine? I can work with that, Stephen-King-Director-style.

https://i.imgur.com/gXB8IB8.gif

[Canelek]

http://i.imgur.com/FwOptaL.jpg (https://imgur.com/FwOptaL)

[Ennewi]

Yeah the classes are 100% the same as vanilla EQ. The races 3 of them are EXACTLY the same jsut different colors. Their halflings are NOT halflings. Their gnomes are NOT gnomes. Their ogres look more like simple brutes. And why so few races?

Saying classes are 100% the same is just false. Most, if not all, have definitive passive abilities akin to but not as overpowered as the FSI racial. That's the first obvious difference.

Monks essentially have a mana pool, and a complex one at that. They have abilities that stun and generate hate, without relying on FD to lower it, meaning they might be passable tanks in the way hybrids currently are here. Mend exists but spread across three abililities and often based on damage dealt or taken.

Paladins have multiple hymns, making them more Bardic in playstyle. They are adept against undead, which isn't the case in EQ unless you have one of the raid-level proc weapons and even then it's still a stretch. Resurrection costs HP, if not MP as well. You still get a version of Divine Aura. Sweeping frontal cone attack with 2hs. Leave a ghost of yourself behind to preoccupy an enemy, send a ghost of yourself to aggro. Pull a target within or push out of melee range. A small single-target heal, trio bounce heal, group heal, and a damage dealt conversion heal. No mention of Lay Hands.

Wizards have spellweave and abilities that are the rough equivalent of a blink dagger in DotA2. They can slow a target's cast time. Wizards can also summon an area effect and guide its path. And they get a protective rune-like barriee ability that locks them in place but can be broken with another ability to damage and lock surrounding targets in place.

Warriors also receive several abilities that are more group-centric, in the form of banners and formations. Their charging abilities are described as a slower version of the Wizard's blink, one while in combat and another, to initiate, from out of combat that also stuns. Others are more situational, but give the class hybrid-like ways in which to snap aggro. They also have abilities with shields beyond swapping in to bash or to ramp tank, including an ability that requires another Warrior to be present.

Dire Lords won't be holding shields, wearing platemail, summoning pets or casting other spells from Necromancer books. There's no mention of them having Feign Death and very little of their design resembles the Shadow Knight's.

Enchanters have more nuanced abilities with a chance to perma-charm a target, spell casting haste, silence, and a spell that deals damage to mezzed targets without breaking mez. Enchanters can mass minor illusion party members at once, potentially allowing them to go unnoticed by a passing train in zone. Enchanters also have a time-sensitive dual abilities designed for finishing off a target, making them more useful on raids when nothing can be charmed.

There are more differences, but the game has been and will continue to be in production for a while; nothing's stopping people from going over to the main site except disinterest or cynicism which, in either case, is irrelevant. But to that end, if you're making uninformed arguments about unfinished products, it's not much different from reddit users ranting about how GRRM / Rothfuss still haven't completed their latest books.

And to those who keep saying vaporware...
https://youtu.be/WDrgwZsGC9A

[Mblake81]

disinterest or cynicism which, in either case, is irrelevant.

https://i.imgur.com/kQXKKAX.png

[Chortles Snort|eS]

Imagine considering vapor ware default stock unity models MMO to fine art

LOL

[BlackBellamy]

https://i.imgur.com/kQXKKAX.png

Right? If my target market segment was exhibiting widespread cynicism or disinterest, perhaps that wouldn't be so irrelevant if I was actually trying to appeal to something other than a niche market. Because niche doesn't pay the bills for large shops.

[aaezil]

Found the big donater boys

Hope it pays off!

[Nirgon]

Go play wow clones

Ill take the EQ clone

[Chortles Snort|eS]

me coNteNt wiT dA oRiginaL masTAPc

😘👌

[Nuggie]

Imagine trying to argue against Ennewi, heh. He clearly knows. I occasionally frequent their forums, but hadn't picked up on a bunch of that stuff. Sounds like some PA tester knowledge.

Aside from that...

Another post hating on a small indie dev company. How embarrassing for the OP. This horse has been beat to death already.

[Samadhi]

Imagine trying to argue against Ennewi, heh. He clearly knows. I occasionally frequent their forums, but hadn't picked up on a bunch of that stuff. Sounds like some PA tester knowledge.

Aside from that...

Another post hating on a small indie dev company. How embarrassing for the OP. This horse has been beat to death already.

Embarassing? Plenty of people agree with me. Secondly ad hominem does not really prove anything. In the end as I said this game is going to be subpar. I do not know or care who Ennewi is.

I said the classes have the same names. If for instance the paladin is going to be more bardlike, then why not call it a completely different name? Is Brad out of name ideas?

Anyhow Ennewi is just butthurt he invested probably $10000 on a game that is going to be a joke. I never said Pantheon will never be released. It probably will be, Vanguard Saga of Heroes style, but with subpar graphics and animations. It will be half done with half an empty world when your explore. I remember that experience vividly when I found those empty plains I cancelled my account.

[oldhead]

looks like Titanium
no style or substance. A couple chat boxes, a hot bar, health bar and widescreen.
/frown at the race selections
/hardpass
https://i.imgur.com/JSlSmbb.jpg
.
.
.
https://i.imgur.com/i0IPWj5.png

Looks good nuff for me tho.

[Mblake81]

Looks good nuff for me tho.

It's not about good.

[Swish]

Beats me they used to give regularly monthly reports now it is like ever 3 months or less....

This is exactly how EQ Next went... and the only difference here is they don't have "Landmark" player created buildings to show off as some kind of "content" in the place of actual progress.

[Donkey Hotay]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/dlew5g/pantheons_ctolead_programmer_has_left/

Hey, look what quietly happened last month. Let's see the wall of text this provokes from

[Jibartik]

Pretty sad it looks like they are trying to clone live eq, not the first trilogy.

[Cecily]

At one point, my only reason to keep living was my curiousity about what video games would be like in the future. This game makes me think that was a mistake.

[Baler]

I remember the dev's taking streamers through specific areas that had more polish than other places to try and show off their game-play. :-|

[drackgon]

I have small hope for this game. Heck im getting Ff7 Remake soon so im already happy nerd. But yeah Looking into this game it screams the same thing that happened with EQnext. Where the company is gonna sell out and leave everyone disappointing. Just looking at the same videos(2 years old) with graphics that reminds me of Eq2 which I just don't understand. With such a huge crowd fund, you would expect something. Jesus the graphics and stiff combat is just sad. And watching their videos they talk like its cutting edge characters/classes. Which seems like Eq2

[Domo]

Is it me or does Pantheon look like crap?

I am not an Pantheon fanboy or aynthink, but for me its looks good.

[getlostgreg]

Now that I've had a taste of Green beta I've been noticing things about Pantheon.

Like the group window has a directional arrow for each member of your party. And I have seen no evidence of dark nights. And it sounds like there will be maps.

Green beta has been a shock to the system for me. Almost overwhelming but it makes my progress feel amazing. Not sure Pantheon will deliver that.

[Topgunben]

I have not followed Pantheon in a long time, but many of the graphics in it look worse than WoW or even old EQ2 graphics and the styles are reminiscent of the updated models of Luclin era. I remember the biggest changes were to Trolls and Ogres changing them from humorous, yet fearsome creatures, to simple brutes.

I still do not get why Brad made the game with Unity. Unity is so clunky. Regardless I am still not convinced the game will be released. I remember the kickstarter for it in 2004. IS it even in BETA 1 yet?

it doesnt look any better than the top 5 MMOs on the market right now.

[Mblake81]

I still do not get why Brad made the game with Unity.

Many games are made in Unity Engine (https://youtu.be/7W0jSgybVdQ?t=3256), Unreal or Crytek.

zzz

Perhaps things have gotten so out of hand that devs are forced to use one because making your own is out of the question now. $50 million game & $85 million marketing.

edit: It's amazing that PC gaming even got off the ground without being able to show off new games on billboards and subways.

https://i.imgur.com/8LvIfA0.jpg
/shrug

You would think demos would be commonplace in digital download nirvana. It is, sort of. You play the unfinished early access game after paying to beta test it. If you only play a couple hours you can refund, so its free. Then you can wait a few years for it to release, after it does you can wait an additional year or two for the game to be patched and "complete" because that now entails the DLC. You can get it for a few bucks on a STEAM sale. It's an old mans market trying to appeal to a 16 year old.

[Bisonzabi]

My complaint is that the models are not very fluid in their movement, whether when running around or swinging weapons or w/e. WoW models were much more fluid in 2004 than Pantheon is in 2019, and this really affects the feel of a game. Honestly it's hard to play EQ again after enjoying the smooth world of wow classic...

Reminds me of Vanguard. The models in that game were janky as fuck and were heavily ridiculed. Of course it was the same old tired excuse from the diehard Brad fans who would defend it saying "it's not ready yet give it time!" Can't tell if it's 2006 or 2019.

[Tethler]

Yeah, the models aren't great, but not terrible either.

If they manage to release, I'll be more interested in the gameplay than the models anyway.

I paid $0 into this project cause I've been burned with things like early-access games in the past, so I'm 100% content to just wait and see. In the meantime I'll continue to enjoy p99 and other various PC and Playstation games.

[Shadilay]

https://i.imgur.com/2VMHbnZ.png

[Jimjam]

Maybe giving small parts of games for free was a bad marketing mechanic.

It is more effective to give most of the game for free, but sell lots of desirable additional increments.

[Bisonzabi]

I am surprised Vah-shir cat and Pepe froglok didn't make the cut, especially in this roflgame market with a splash of Mass Effect. Redditors will probably love it though, especially if they add in rage comic emotes and whatever the new trendy dance emotes are (for a nominal mtx fee)

I am waiting on the DLC that adds in hobbits carrying Halo: Combat Evolved shotguns.

The playable Froglok race is unironically one of the only efforts of artistic originality that came out of EQ1 during its first 5 years. Not a sentient frog race specifically (because that's been done before in fiction), but rather their design and look. Every prior playable race was artistically barebones mundane D&D public domain stuff that didn't stand out compared to the countless other High Fantasy RPG videogames at the time.

So at the very least kudos to Brad trying to make the choices on races more appealing. Even the gnomes look neat. And spoiler: they don't need to look like D&D 1st edition Gnomes. Neither do the Halfings need to look like JRR Tolkien's Middle Earth's Hobbits or how Dwarves in Elder Scrolls (which were ancient tinkering elves) need to be Middle Earth Dwarves.

And since you brought up science fiction games like Halo and Mass Effect, you know there's a parked flying alien saucer in Qeynos that is used for worshiping a grey alien that ascended to godhood right? So the idea of science fiction elements and extraterrestrials exist in your beloved classic EQ too. Just in case you tried to forget :^)

More excited for Rogean Nilbog eq1 custom content than Pantheon at this point

I don't think anyone's going to like it. I mean even if the community has some competent game designers to help out with it, it will nevertheless have to contend with the 20 years of rose tinted glasses of what every individual person would consider as a 'classic' alternative to the mainline route SoL and beyond.

[Bisonzabi]

Yeah the classes are 100% the same as vanilla EQ. The races 3 of them are EXACTLY the same jsut different colors. Their halflings are NOT halflings. Their gnomes are NOT gnomes. Their ogres look more like simple brutes. And why so few races?

Varied interpretations of mythological and fictional creatures has existed since forever. There is no set in stone standard for these ideas especially in the realms of fantasy.

[Swish]

It's good to have some D&D/LOTR flavor with humans, elves, etc... but also good to introduce races that you'd only find in that game or created with only some loose inspiration.

I still hope it makes it but the timeline is just way too slow and they're not telling us much.

[Bisonzabi]

It's good to have some D&D/LOTR flavor with humans, elves, etc... but also good to introduce races that you'd only find in that game or created with only some loose inspiration.

I still hope it makes it but the timeline is just way too slow and they're not telling us much.

Yeah I have no faith in it. Everytime I see an update on mmo.com I'm like "oh yeah, this game exists" Only a matter of time before the staff discover Brad's been licking toads again.

[pink grapefruit]

why does everyone keep saying brad is a drug addict?

[Bisonzabi]

because he was and likely still is lol

[Bazia]

why does everyone keep saying brad is a drug addict?

https://i.imgur.com/RyXbR8d.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Pv8707L.jpg

[Horza]

pepe.jpg

Looks like 8chan is leaking again.

[azeth]

Reminds me of Vanguard. The models in that game were janky as fuck and were heavily ridiculed.

Inaccurate. Vanguard graphics were top notch and required an obscene amount of comp power - which was part of its downfall.

[Bisonzabi]

Inaccurate. Vanguard graphics were top notch and required an obscene amount of comp power - which was part of its downfall.

Not really. I think you're confusing character model animations with overall background visuals. The animations were crude especially compared to other mmos like EQ2 or WoW and the engine itself lacked a programming script language. It's one of the reasons why it was unoptimized as hell. It wasn't the graphics that made the game run like shit.

[Bisonzabi]

Well Fires of Heaven for those who do not know was Brads old Everquest guild. Brad McQuaid AkA Aradune.

It was also the home of one of the lead developers of World of Warcraft. The first level 50 in EQ back in 1999 was Alex Afrasiabi who's the creative director of WoW and was the leader of Fires Of Heaven during the classic era. Then you got Jeffrey Kaplan who was the leader of Legacy of Steel and responsible for achieving many "firsts" in EQ1's raiding community before going over to Blizzard to become WoW's Lead Game Designer.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031011021922/http://legacyofsteel.net/newspro/archives/arc93.html
Ahhh now this is classic venting.

[Vormotus]

Nope, just a cynical nobody who likes to observe pointless things.



My favorite quote ever, are you me?

[Wwen42]

It was also the home of one of the lead developers of World of Warcraft. The first level 50 in EQ back in 1999 was Alex Afrasiabi who's the creative director of WoW and was the leader of Fires Of Heaven during the classic era. Then you got Jeffrey Kaplan who was the leader of Legacy of Steel and responsible for achieving many "firsts" in EQ1's raiding community before going over to Blizzard to become WoW's Lead Game Designer.

http://web.archive.org/web/20031011021922/http://legacyofsteel.net/newspro/archives/arc93.html
Ahhh now this is classic venting.

Maybe FoH is like the Masons or Skull and Crossbones of the MMO world.

[Danth]

Not really. I think you're confusing character model animations with overall background visuals. The animations were crude especially compared to other mmos like EQ2 or WoW and the engine itself lacked a programming script language. It's one of the reasons why it was unoptimized as hell. It wasn't the graphics that made the game run like shit.

More than that, the original models didn't make it to release in Vanguard because of the poor performance. The models used for the launched version of the game were somewhat reduced quality relative to the originals, hence why they looked somewhat "off" in the otherwise rather nice-looking game world. The "animal head on an otherwise human body" races were particularly ridiculous. I've said it before, but Vanguard felt like it was caught in some sort of reverse-time field. It kept getting worse over time instead of better, which has got to be the surest sign of wretched project management. It was at its best in early beta, before the Thestran continent was partially rebuilt for little to no reason other than to suck up manhours that would've been better spent on any of a hundred other tasks.

I check Pantheon perhaps every six months or so. What's been publicly released looks like any other MMOG to me--some stuff that looks alright, and some stuff I don't care for.

Danth

[saftbudet]

More than that, the original models didn't make it to release in Vanguard because of the poor performance. The models used for the launched version of the game were somewhat reduced quality relative to the originals, hence why they looked somewhat "off" in the otherwise rather nice-looking game world. The "animal head on an otherwise human body" races were particularly ridiculous. I've said it before, but Vanguard felt like it was caught in some sort of reverse-time field. It kept getting worse over time instead of better, which has got to be the surest sign of wretched project management. It was at its best in early beta, before the Thestran continent was partially rebuilt for little to no reason other than to suck up manhours that would've been better spent on any of a hundred other tasks.

I check Pantheon perhaps every six months or so. What's been publicly released looks like any other MMOG to me--some stuff that looks alright, and some stuff I don't care for.

Danth

The anti box policy that they lean toward combined with hopefully abit higher difficulty than standard mmo is what keep my hopes up for pantheon. It worries me tho that such a large part of pantheon cummunity seems to prefer eez mode game.

[getlostgreg]

https://i.imgur.com/rqCyOa1.png

One of these is a Fortnite social media campaign from October 2019. The other is a Pantheon social media campaign from November 2019.

Can you tell which is which?

[Donkey Hotay]

I thought I read that their forums/social media person left/got fired/didn't share Percocets a while back. The new guy appears to have everything under control.

[FatherSioux]

https://i.imgur.com/rqCyOa1.png

One of these is a Fortnite social media campaign from October 2019. The other is a Pantheon social media campaign from November 2019.

Can you tell which is which?

They ripped that off from Fortnite? Not that I care, I’m excited to see what the deal is.

[solleks]

What is that picture of though

[Jimjam]

Its an eclipse. Ripping off reality.

[getlostgreg]

They ripped that off from Fortnite? Not that I care, I’m excited to see what the deal is.

The black hole was a mysterious multi-day event used to drum up interest in a new Fortnite map reveal. I'm guessing VR is doing the same thing before the reveal of a new zone today on stream.

I'm also excited.

[Bardp1999]

Its borderline criminal that he has tricked people to invest in this game

[FatherSioux]

Brad? He isn’t even THE guy on the project. He isn’t the boogeyman.

[Horza]

Is that supposed to be the black hole Pantheon supporters' money is getting sucked into?

[BlackBellamy]

I check Pantheon perhaps every six months or so. What's been publicly released looks like any other MMOG to me--some stuff that looks alright, and some stuff I don't care for.

Danth

Right? I mean there's nothing there that explains why I should play that game except that I'm bored. Like it's not even in space on a ringworld, or underground cavern worlds, or sky islands, it's just a bunch of deja vu.

[Khorza]

Imagine expecting people to believe you when you say that this game (https://i.imgur.com/t5CRgvw.jpg) looks graphically worse than this game (https://i.imgur.com/stdXS5J.jpg), and also that you're mad that Pantheon is "copying" EQ races but you're also mad that they changed EQ races like Halflings, Gnomes, and Ogres slightly.

Why give an opinion if you're going to be impossible to please anyways?

[FatherSioux]

Right? I mean there's nothing there that explains why I should play that game except that I'm bored. Like it's not even in space on a ringworld, or underground cavern worlds, or sky islands, it's just a bunch of deja vu.

You mean aside from the fact that they have a mission to create a classic MMO(EQ, UO, RS) style game with modern tech? Or that it's clearly heavily influenced by a game that we all obviously adore since we're all here? Aside from those two details? Sure, no reason.

[getlostgreg]

Imagine expecting people to believe you when you say that this game (https://i.imgur.com/t5CRgvw.jpg) looks graphically worse than this game (https://i.imgur.com/stdXS5J.jpg)

I think it's more reasonable to compare zones that the devs worked on in the same year.

https://i.imgur.com/WpT3FPi.png

[FatherSioux]

All that drama for a logo, not gonna lie that sucks.

[Lulz Sect]

the art direction has no soul
not like it was gonna make it to release
but still

[Donkey Hotay]

Brad must have been a fan of nightelf zones.

[Khorza]

I think it's more reasonable to compare zones that the devs worked on in the same year.

Well I wasn't the one comparing Vanguard to vanilla WoW, Luclin, and EQ2.

The better question is why are people expecting a small indie MMO team to develop a pre-alpha that's graphically superior to a modern fully-released title that's developed by one of the largest and richest game studios in the world.

I'd hope that modern WoW looks better, jeez.

I still play and enjoy classic EQ, DAoC, and WoW. The Faerthale trailer is obviously a massive graphical advancement from those games. If the game looks that nice and plays like a classic MMORPG then I'll be perfectly happy and probably quit working for a year.

I'll agree that Pantheon looked a bit rough at first but a lot of the recent images have looked nice. It looks like a world that I want to explore and have an adventure in.

I especially like the images they've released recently of vast empty landscapes with nice geography. It feels so much more like an actual world and it reminds me a bit of games like Breath of the Wild. In WoW everything has a very obvious purpose, it feels more like a game where things were placed into it to be interacted with by players than a real fantasy world.

[Swish]

Imagine if it released and nobody liked it.

[Khorza]

Possible but very unlikely. Vanguard wasn't a bad game. In fact it may have been the best MMORPG ever developed. It suffered from other problems, of course. But the game design was of the highest quality.

Haven't been around P99 in awhile but it's good to see that Swish is still posting valueless comments all these years later.

Edit: And I said Vanguard in my above comment but I meant Pantheon, of course. Hard to keep these generic fantasy MMO titles straight.

[Mblake81]

Possible but very unlikely. Vanguard wasn't a bad game. In fact it may have been the best MMORPG ever developed. It suffered from other problems, of course. But the game design was of the highest quality.

.. you are talking about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes? still have my original copy of that one. I am responding about the game design of the highest quality comment, made me smile. I played that game on and off for two weeks as a cleric. I joined the best guild on the server (forgot the name as the game is forgettable) and I had a moment where I was with everyone and thought "Why am I playing this, I don't want to. This has none of the pull EQ did, I am just grinding in a fantasy game in 3rd person"

If you had one million dollars and offered it as a reward for naming a single town, dungeon or memorable tune I would not be able to win it. :o

[Mblake81]

Not posting this to slam on the quality of the visuals but I do dislike the art style. Like wow, gotta have the mini map, a quest log (because wtf kind of game doesn't have one?) a small chat box, hot bar bonanza... on rails. These are standards now and expected in accessible game designs.

https://i.imgur.com/gNHo043.jpg

[Danth]

Vanguard had the minimap specifically because the WoW-kiddos wouldn't stop crying about not having one. There wasn't one in beta. I think Vanguard--even beyond its many problems--was the wrong game at the wrong time. It was something of an anti-WoW trying to launch during the height of Warcraft's success. Even if it was fully functional and not a bug-ridden unfinished mess I don't think it would have done particularly well.

Pantheon, if it can manage a release at all, seems to have better timing in the sense that there's no 800 pound gorilla in the room waiting to smash all comers, but it also seems like a vastly less ambitious game than VG was with a much smaller scope. I keep track of its progress to a limited degree but I haven't seen anything that really stands out yet. With its drawn-out development it's hard to put much faith even in what's been shown--with potentially years to a release most anything is still subject to change. Can't do much more, right now, than continue keeping an eye on it as a potential option down the road.

Danth

[Mblake81]

Pantheon, if it can manage a release at all, seems to have better timing in the sense that there's no 800 pound gorilla in the room waiting to smash all comers, but it also seems like a vastly less ambitious game than VG was with a much smaller scope.

Danth

It's now closer to 500lbs, is the family friend by name and its fists are made of hardened steel expectation.

[kerafym]

What was the point of that new trailer? An aerial camera view of some random zone? Did I miss something?

[Bazia]

vanguard was a shit game and thats why no one played it and it died

[Lulz Sect]

pantheon will be a shit game that no one played and it will die

FixD

[Lone Gnome]

Not posting this to slam on the quality of the visuals but I do dislike the art style. Like wow, gotta have the mini map, a quest log (because wtf kind of game doesn't have one?) a small chat box, hot bar bonanza... on rails. These are standards now and expected in accessible game designs.

https://i.imgur.com/gNHo043.jpg

if this is what pantheon looks like this is god dam terrible

[DaNecro]

https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/pantheon_difference/

[DaNecro]

actual newsletter in video form, just 2 week ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGUQ3hpZNks

[Donkey Hotay]

Was that before or after they silently fired the CTO?

[Bisonzabi]

More than that, the original models didn't make it to release in Vanguard because of the poor performance. The models used for the launched version of the game were somewhat reduced quality relative to the originals, hence why they looked somewhat "off" in the otherwise rather nice-looking game world. The "animal head on an otherwise human body" races were particularly ridiculous. I've said it before, but Vanguard felt like it was caught in some sort of reverse-time field. It kept getting worse over time instead of better, which has got to be the surest sign of wretched project management. It was at its best in early beta, before the Thestran continent was partially rebuilt for little to no reason other than to suck up manhours that would've been better spent on any of a hundred other tasks.

I check Pantheon perhaps every six months or so. What's been publicly released looks like any other MMOG to me--some stuff that looks alright, and some stuff I don't care for.

Danth

Is there any proof of the original models? Like I mean actual images of them? Also the animal races were pretty fucking bad. Like a bootleg version of Jim Henson puppetry. It wasn't even in beta, it was more so in an alpha and barely even out of a pre-alpha (meaning not all of the features were included into the core game yet). Remember being in the "open beta" and the last few days before the official launch, they were trying to rush out testing flying mounts which weren't introduced until then. It was such a spectacular fuck up that the server crashed immediately.

[Bisonzabi]

Imagine expecting people to believe you when you say that this game (https://i.imgur.com/t5CRgvw.jpg) looks graphically worse than this game (https://i.imgur.com/stdXS5J.jpg), and also that you're mad that Pantheon is "copying" EQ races but you're also mad that they changed EQ races like Halflings, Gnomes, and Ogres slightly.

Why give an opinion if you're going to be impossible to please anyways?

Imagine using heavily cherry picked images as some sort of 'evidence'
But you are right about people shouldn't be mad about the looks of these races. Everquest didn't invent any of these races.

[Danth]

Is there any proof of the original models? Like I mean actual images of them? Also the animal races were pretty fucking bad. Like a bootleg version of Jim Henson puppetry. It wasn't even in beta, it was more so in an alpha and barely even out of a pre-alpha (meaning not all of the features were included into the core game yet). Remember being in the "open beta" and the last few days before the official launch, they were trying to rush out testing flying mounts which weren't introduced until then. It was such a spectacular fuck up that the server crashed immediately.

There are probably old screenshots from alpha/etc out there someplace, but I don't feel like searching personally. If you scour the internet long enough you'll probably find some of them.

Danth

[Bisonzabi]

Not posting this to slam on the quality of the visuals but I do dislike the art style. Like wow, gotta have the mini map, a quest log (because wtf kind of game doesn't have one?) a small chat box, hot bar bonanza... on rails. These are standards now and expected in accessible game designs.

https://i.imgur.com/gNHo043.jpg

There's nothing wrong with that UI in particular and that chat window is easily customizable plus having hotbars is important once you get to a certain level and you have many different skills you've acquired. WoW didn't invent any of this either, plenty of MMO's came out after EQ and before WoW that helped evolve the genre.

[Bisonzabi]

There are probably old screenshots from alpha/etc out there someplace, but I don't feel like searching personally. If you scour the internet long enough you'll probably find some of them.

Danth

W/e site they were on is probably long gone. The game was in closed "beta" until the very last month prior to release (Jan 2007) so not much was said about it from those that tested it prior and those that did have something to say usually just said something on the lines of 'the game's going to be a disaster'

[Danth]

The Vulmane looked quite a bit different in particular, and better I think--more animalistic. A few surviving shots are probably out there someplace; I doubt they're all lost to time. I wouldn't know where to look though. Maybe the internet archive?

Danth

[Mead]

.. you are talking about Vanguard: Saga of Heroes? still have my original copy of that one. I am responding about the game design of the highest quality comment, made me smile. I played that game on and off for two weeks as a cleric. I joined the best guild on the server (forgot the name as the game is forgettable) and I had a moment where I was with everyone and thought "Why am I playing this, I don't want to. This has none of the pull EQ did, I am just grinding in a fantasy game in 3rd person"

If you had one million dollars and offered it as a reward for naming a single town, dungeon or memorable tune I would not be able to win it. :o

Karnage?

[Wonkie]

Not posting this to slam on the quality of the visuals but I do dislike the art style. Like wow, gotta have the mini map, a quest log (because wtf kind of game doesn't have one?) a small chat box, hot bar bonanza... on rails. These are standards now and expected in accessible game designs.

https://i.imgur.com/gNHo043.jpg

lolol that hot bar is a straight ripoff of the wow default ui that nobody uses. at least have the sense to ripoff a popular custom UI.

brad is a clown, whoop whoop.

[Mblake81]

There's nothing wrong with that UI in particular and that chat window is easily customizable plus having hotbars is important once you get to a certain level and you have many different skills you've acquired. WoW didn't invent any of this either, plenty of MMO's came out after EQ and before WoW that helped evolve the genre.

Nothing right about it either.

Karnage?

I don't recall guild or server name.

[Danth]

Nothing right about it either.

The little arrows with distance readouts that pointed to your group members were a nice addition. They're not visible in that shot since the character isn't grouped. It was definitely based on the Warcraft interface for the most part. I was okay with that since, in spite of some edgy comments now, in 2004-2007 it was popularly regarded as the best UI in the business. My main gripe with it was the pointless class icons that took up screen space--quite a lot of space in a full group--for little reason.

Where that character is at reminds me of one of Vanguard's strengths. Near the bay visible on the minim-map in that shot was a shipwreck on the beach. Nothing fancy, right? However if a player were to explore that shipwreck, he'd find a broken bit at the bottom leading into a little room dug out, which lead into another room and ultimately into a fair-size dungeon area. Neat!

Danth

[Mblake81]

https://i.imgur.com/7glZk3J.jpg

[Lone Gnome]

looks cool, still not playing, the forward and side angle attacks remind me of age of conan another successful mmo

[casiof91w]

https://i.imgur.com/7glZk3J.jpg

Where is this screenshot from?

[Mblake81]

Where is this screenshot from?

Age of Conan: Hyborean Adventures. I was referencing UI homogenization.

[Bisonzabi]

Nothing right about it either.


Plenty is.

[Lone Gnome]

knew it was age of conan, game was so fucking bad and the servers kept coming down nonstop after launch

pissed me off so bad, random client dumps etc

never playing any new games ever

[Mblake81]

Plenty is.

nah.

[Bisonzabi]

nah.

Yah.

[Mblake81]

Yah.

no.

[Vormotus]

never playing any new games ever

Well, you can do like I did ... I began boardgaming, beats most pc games out there by a ton, plus you can drink while yo do it and not die and lose xp like EQ :D

[Purplefluffy]

I have not followed Pantheon in a long time, but many of the graphics in it look worse than WoW or even old EQ2 graphics and the styles are reminiscent of the updated models of Luclin era. I remember the biggest changes were to Trolls and Ogres changing them from humorous, yet fearsome creatures, to simple brutes.

I still do not get why Brad made the game with Unity. Unity is so clunky. Regardless I am still not convinced the game will be released. I remember the kickstarter for it in 2004. IS it even in BETA 1 yet?

Still, not as bad as Dark and Light or Mortal Online. Perhaps I will be jinxing Pantheon now.

[Bisonzabi]

no.

Yes.

[Bisonzabi]

knew it was age of conan, game was so fucking bad and the servers kept coming down nonstop after launch

pissed me off so bad, random client dumps etc

never playing any new games ever

You shouldn't allow one disappointment into an MMO of all things to turn yourself away from every videogame ever.

[Mblake81]

Yes.

You are willful in your support of mediocrity. I'll pass on the paddle shifter UIs.

[Bihlbo]

The 9 starting races look interesting. I like that the halflings aren't hobbits, and unlike in EQ it looks like there aren't any redundancies. I'm not sure I like dwarves being icy.

[Fawqueue]

Every time I've been excited about an MMO based upon what they want to do, I've always been disappointed by what they end up doing in the finished product. I imagine Pantheon will end up being quite the same.

Not to mention, it reeks of desperation to be the next EQ that I imagine it'll end up feeling like some Frankenstein's monster mish-mash that just reminds everyone that nothing will be EQ again and we have to just appreciate the experiences we had.

[Ennewi]

Right? If my target market segment was exhibiting widespread cynicism or disinterest, perhaps that wouldn't be so irrelevant if I was actually trying to appeal to something other than a niche market. Because niche doesn't pay the bills for large shops.

That cynicism extends to most topics on these forums or would if RnF didn't exist to quarantine the shitposting. If we don't give insightful feedback, than we are just placeholders for the customers a non-blizzard company would actually value, as irrelevant to the developers of that product as we claim that product is overall...except we can't speak for everyone else, only for our own small community. Saying it can't be done is absolutely true, but only for the person saying it. Jumping on stage and/or throwing things at the performer isn't going to get you an encore. I don't see where it's fun to heckle a comedian before they've even approached the microphone. Material takes time. And art doesn't have to rake in large quantities of cash or please audiences of all age groups in order to sustain its creator(s) and have lasting appeal. Ex.: Blade Runner 2049.

The same applies to projects like these. One of the heads at Sony stated years and years ago that classic EverQuest would not, could not be remade because the original files were lost or whatever. And yet, here we are playing that remake, across four different servers. A similar voice says Pantheon is vaporware when, in fact, the game has already secured enough funding. Even if trolling, it's not clever or interesting so dkp minus for lack of effort. This should go without saying, but modern MMORPGs aren't easy to make and even remaking an old one like EQ is incredibly time-consuming.

Found the big donater boys

Hope it pays off!

So far my only contribution to Pantheon has been pointing out statements that are either false or highly assumptive; yours just happens to be both.

Lead: Make your own server/game. Follow: Support and offer feedback. Get out of the way: Do nothing and hope it pays off.

A good way to do nothing? Don't state opinion as fact, don't make personal attacks against staff/devs, and don't speculate on outcomes based solely on previous experiences, the majority of which being unrelated. Of course, you can still do these things but there will be annoying people like me ready to argue the facts. As McQuaid stated in a recent reply on YouTube, "Every game I've worked on shipped."

[Bisonzabi]

You are willful in your support of mediocrity. I'll pass on the paddle shifter UIs.

Please tell me why that UI is bad without saying "i'm very old and too many hotkeys confuse me" There's a good reason why WoW's UI was exceptionally solid and why so many wanted to emulate it.

[Donkey Hotay]

The clever bit of WoW's UI was opening it up to customization via APIs and then letting the players craft the UI for them. All you have to do then is tune the APIs when the players find weaknesses and all of the different market segments are happy.

[Bisonzabi]

The clever bit of WoW's UI was opening it up to customization via APIs and then letting the players craft the UI for them. All you have to do then is tune the APIs when the players find weaknesses and all of the different market segments are happy.

That's also a plus. Everyone has their subjective opinion or taste when it comes to a MMO's UI. It was still a great default UI at the time of its release especially when compared to the competition.

[Khorza]

It was still a great default UI at the time of its release especially when compared to the competition.

Huge understatement.

It's a bit outdated by today's standards, but it still holds up 15 years later and it's still mostly unchanged today.

EQ's UI has been updated how many times? DAOC's UI is and has always been shit. FFXI was a nightmare, especially on the PC.

[Mblake81]

Please tell me why that UI is bad without saying "i'm very old and too many hotkeys confuse me" There's a good reason why WoW's UI was exceptionally solid and why so many wanted to emulate it.

Having a mini map is related to the gameplay itself (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/should-minimaps-and-compasses-be-gone-from-rpgs.130832/). In eq, your character must develop skills in order to navigate the world (sense heading) and developing your own ability to navigate using /location. You are removing those aspects in order to make the navigating integrated into the UI. The world is designed with using its use in mind. It is not as immersive. You don't even have to keep up with where your groupmates are in some versions of this. Pass

Quest Log: You don't have to keep up with anything, it does it for you. "Fetch me my lost sword, I will mark it on your map, glowing arrow shows the way". Pass.

The multitude of buttons, UI and the gameplay. Having everything laid out means you don't have to make any selections for what you are about to do. No forethought required. They are also tied to the cool down system these kinds of games employ.. "I click this, which sets up this cut, then I follow with this, it sets up this ultimate move".. this is known as a button masher game. Pass.

The UI will tell you how a game like this is going to be. I say its bad, it's bad imo because I don't like the games. It is written on the UI itself. EQ came from CRPG design, WoW came from accessibility to garner more players. Pass.

[Mblake81]

https://i.imgur.com/reHNCfj.jpg
.
.
.
https://i.imgur.com/WF0a909.jpg?1

[Bisonzabi]

Having a mini map is related to the gameplay itself (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/should-minimaps-and-compasses-be-gone-from-rpgs.130832/). In eq, your character must develop skills in order to navigate the world (sense heading) and developing your own ability to navigate using /location. You are removing those aspects in order to make the navigating integrated into the UI. The world is designed with using its use in mind. It is not as immersive. You don't even have to keep up with where your groupmates are in some versions of this. Pass

Quest Log: You don't have to keep up with anything, it does it for you. "Fetch me my lost sword, I will mark it on your map, glowing arrow shows the way". Pass.

The multitude of buttons, UI and the gameplay. Having everything laid out means you don't have to make any selections for what you are about to do. No forethought required. They are also tied to the cool down system these kinds of games employ.. "I click this, which sets up this cut, then I follow with this, it sets up this ultimate move".. this is known as a button masher game. Pass.

The UI will tell you how a game like this is going to be. I say its bad, it's bad imo because I don't like the games. It is written on the UI itself. EQ came from CRPG design, WoW came from accessibility to garner more players. Pass.

Ok so I'm going to go under the assumption that you haven't played many videogames outside of EQ in your life. Many RPG's that existed had maps prior to EQ. Including games like Elder Scrolls Arena/Daggerfall, Ultima VII ect. And it's not like EQ had a difficult world to understand. The overland zones were very primitive with only a few props here and there that stood out, but mostly there were all shaped into squares and if you wanted to play it safe you would just wallhug to avoid trouble. Vanguard, much like many MMO's from the 2000's and onwards were a lot more complex and dense than EQ1 rectangle/square patterned zones especially when every zone was filled with over a 30+ quests.

Regarding quest log: Yeah, there was a shit ton of quests in Vanguard. Everquest didn't have much questing, and for the questing that did exist; 90% were shit and useless and only a few actually mattered. I stopped played Vanguard when I was a level 25, but I do recall having completed around 100 or so quests.

Having everything laid out means you don't have to make any selections for what you are about to do. No forethought required.
Ok now I know for certain you never played these games and all your assumptions are completely based off ignorance. Endgame for many of these games require you to have at least an understanding of around 10-30 abilities and how you utilize them during a fight can be very crucial. Let's not pretend that EQ1 has very complicated classes, especially the melee ones such as warrriors who have auto-attack and occasionaly kick/bash and taunt.

https://i.imgur.com/reHNCfj.jpg
.
.
.
https://i.imgur.com/WF0a909.jpg?1

What exactly is this image suppose to convey? That a form of entertainment is the equivalent to driving a car? If you're comparing a videogame where the entire point is to entertain yourself to that of driving in real life than perhaps you need a reality check.

[Mblake81]

This message is hidden because Bisonzabi is on your ignore list.

[Danth]

What exactly is this image suppose to convey? That a form of entertainment is the equivalent to driving a car? If you're comparing a videogame where the entire point is to entertain yourself to that of driving in real life than perhaps you need a reality check.

Funny when you consider that automobiles effectively standardized their "interfaces" around the WW1 era. I think Cadillac developed the control layout we take for granted today. Ever try driving a replica model T Ford? It's nuts! Pretty much nothing on that car but the steering wheel works like you'd expect it to. I bet that a hundred years ago there was someone, somewhere, who hated Cadillac's system and preferred having his throttle on the steering column and the transmission worked by pedals on the floor. Can't please everyone.

Granted, at this stage there's not much else to talk about. Pantheon is itself too far off yet, and too early ("pre-alpha?" that's developer-speak for "Anything can change.") in development to be able to talk about it in very concrete terms.

Danth

[Mblake81]

^

Well, i can see his quote. I had started to read his nonsense reply but decided to ignore him instead. Save me the effort of having to explain something he obviously doesn't understand.

The picture was showing the de-evolution of stick to paddle shifter to a self driving car. To tie this back into video games, it is like I said above. Learning and doing things in a game that involve (manual shift, clutch) you to cutting the human error out (paddle shifter) that requires non of that in order to drive. Progressing into a fully self driving car that completely takes it out (you are just a passenger). It is joked about in some circles, games are currently in the paddle shifter phase and will proceed into the self driving. That way young kids can load up their favorite cloud stream game, let it play itself while they sit on their cyber couches eating soy chips.

Yeah, I do entertain myself while driving. I am a man.

https://i.imgur.com/7JQb6Bt.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/9SBVUZG.jpg?1

[Danth]

Think we already got there Blake. A few years ago I tried some game on my cousin's computer. It had a "skip level" option when the player lost. I was disgusted and lost interest immediately.

As for cars, I like comfy floaty older-style Cadillacs and Buicks. Nice and relaxing! Shifting gears? Let the car do that, don't care. I think the push-button gear selector Chrysler was using back in the 50's and 60's was a neat idea. Conventional manual transmissions are gradually dying out, even in racing. Sprint cars don't generally shift. Open-wheel cars usually use push button shifting or something similar. Stock cars retain the traditional layout but in races the drivers are commonly shifting w/o the clutch nowadays. Fine by me, stuff like Ford F600's long ago cured me of any enjoyment out of manipulating gears.

Edit: As for self-driving cars, I rather dislike the notion. I don't even like having the radio on while I drive--drowns out too many external sounds. But then I also dislike the poor state of driver training in the U.S. more generally. I've always felt that the (pretty basic) training I got in police academy years ago should've been about standard. Then I think of the terror associated with the rare few occasions I go anyplace with the wife driving and I decide maybe self-driving cars aren't such a bad idea for some folks.

Danth

[Bisonzabi]

Funny when you consider that automobiles effectively standardized their "interfaces" around the WW1 era. I think Cadillac developed the control layout we take for granted today. Ever try driving a replica model T Ford? It's nuts! Pretty much nothing on that car but the steering wheel works like you'd expect it to. I bet that a hundred years ago there was someone, somewhere, who hated Cadillac's system and preferred having his throttle on the steering column and the transmission worked by pedals on the floor. Can't please everyone.


The point is that the priority of an automobile is still meant for transportation. Yes, you can find entertainment out of driving, but that's not the main intention of it. Claiming that flooding your ability to see in a car (where you life could be at stake) is the same as your ability to see in a videogame is asinine.

Granted, at this stage there's not much else to talk about. Pantheon is itself too far off yet, and too early ("pre-alpha?" that's developer-speak for "Anything can change.") in development to be able to talk about it in very concrete terms.
Now that Brad's gone, I don't think this project has any chance of going anywhere. Likely will die out soon. Lot of people hopped onto the anticipation of the game from his name alone. Without him, the community surrounding it might fall apart. On top of this, there was no explanation for his death, which means a red flag on how he passed away. Given his troubled past, it could've been a relapse into drug addiction. And if that's the case, that can spell poison for the PR of a project like this.

[Bisonzabi]

^

Well, i can see his quote. I had started to read his nonsense reply but decided to ignore him instead. Save me the effort of having to explain something he obviously doesn't understand.
Sounds like you got angry at my reply, didn't have a way to properly respond to it, and now put your hands over your ears.
Yeah, I do entertain myself while driving. I am a man.
Real men don't run away. Just saying.

[kerafym]

Was there any update on the game after poor Brad's passing?

[Donkey Hotay]

Was there any update on the game after poor Brad's passing?

They'll have a better idea of the remaining budget once they realize the street value of the leftover pills.

[Ennewi]

The point is that the priority of an automobile is still meant for transportation. Yes, you can find entertainment out of driving, but that's not the main intention of it. Claiming that flooding your ability to see in a car (where you life could be at stake) is the same as your ability to see in a videogame is asinine.

Adherence to the intended purpose of anything suppresses creative thought and delays innovation. The vehicle dashboard/game UI comparison is only asinine to the unimaginative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGdGHthpNAM

Now that Brad's gone, I don't think this project has any chance of going anywhere. Likely will die out soon. Lot of people hopped onto the anticipation of the game from his name alone. Without him, the community surrounding it might fall apart.

If McQuaid had placed greater emphasis on fleshing out its visuals first, instead of the core mechanics, that argument would have a leg to stand on. He didn't, so it doesn't. Vanguard actually served as a valuable lesson it seems. Had that game released according to plan, perhaps more resources would have been focused initially towards the graphics of PRotF. As a result, we would have more icing/sprinkles and less cake at this point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/e4up7u/jason_weimann_senior_programmer_talking_about/

But yes, it goes without saying that everything can fall apart seemingly without warning; McQuaid's passing serves as a reminder of that. Our bodies are vehicles, as are games, each fragile upon inception and each transporting us through worlds that challenge and reward us, but eventually we play through all of the content and move on. What is left in our absence others can either preserve (p99), build upon (protf), or attempt to tear down which still contributes to the overall progress.

Given his troubled past, it could've been a relapse into drug addiction. And if that's the case, that can spell poison for the PR of a project like this.

Superstitious lines of text read better coming from an NPC in Norrath rather than an individual on Earth. The stigma addicts have faced is part of a larger education problem. Who cares about PR other than big corporations, politicians, and social media influencers preoccupied with image and polls? Looking back, it's reasonable to say that McQuaid earned his name in the industry almost in spite of public relations, which underscores the quality of his work and the games he worked on. A supposed overdose is only fodder for the usual trolls who seek relevance through outrage and are content with gaining it anonymously online. Still, even that is a game of sorts. Brad himself had said that indifference was worse than any negative feedback or trolling. But if anything, the gaming community ought to be the first to empathize or at least relate, considering the number of addicts within it, some recovering and others on-again, off-again. This is of course assuming your assumption is right, which is not much different from the blind leading the blind.

[Donkey Hotay]

I'm going to hazard that the above poster also possesses digital currency.

[Vormotus]

Still wondering if it will be good despite how bad or not it might look.

And if the team will reorganize and make the game at all.

I think I will play it eventually ... I remember buying Vanguard back in the day and enjoying it despite all of its flaws.

[Ennewi]

I'm going to hazard that the above poster also possesses digital currency.

A better guess would've been old Show Biz and Aladdin's Castle arcade tokens.

[kerafym]

Adherence to the intended purpose of anything suppresses creative thought and delays innovation. The vehicle dashboard/game UI comparison is only asinine to the unimaginative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGdGHthpNAM



If McQuaid had placed greater emphasis on fleshing out its visuals first, instead of the core mechanics, that argument would have a leg to stand on. He didn't, so it doesn't. Vanguard actually served as a valuable lesson it seems. Had that game released according to plan, perhaps more resources would have been focused initially towards the graphics of PRotF. As a result, we would have more icing/sprinkles and less cake at this point.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PantheonMMO/comments/e4up7u/jason_weimann_senior_programmer_talking_about/

But yes, it goes without saying that everything can fall apart seemingly without warning; McQuaid's passing serves as a reminder of that. Our bodies are vehicles, as are games, each fragile upon inception and each transporting us through worlds that challenge and reward us, but eventually we play through all of the content and move on. What is left in our absence others can either preserve (p99), build upon (protf), or attempt to tear down which still contributes to the overall progress.



Superstitious lines of text read better coming from an NPC in Norrath rather than an individual on Earth. The stigma addicts have faced is part of a larger education problem. Who cares about PR other than big corporations, politicians, and social media influencers preoccupied with image and polls? Looking back, it's reasonable to say that McQuaid earned his name in the industry almost in spite of public relations, which underscores the quality of his work and the games he worked on. A supposed overdose is only fodder for the usual trolls who seek relevance through outrage and are content with gaining it anonymously online. Still, even that is a game of sorts. Brad himself had said that indifference was worse than any negative feedback or trolling. But if anything, the gaming community ought to be the first to empathize or at least relate, considering the number of addicts within it, some recovering and others on-again, off-again. This is of course assuming your assumption is right, which is not much different from the blind leading the blind.

You really have a talent for writing. Do you have some sort of blog?

[Donkey Hotay]

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3837056&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

Poking around SA today and found this thread that purports to summarize Star Citizen. I found the first page of interest, at least. If you're the donator type, you may not find it so interesting but perhaps you'd like to see how the other side thinks or perhaps enjoy some heartburn for its own sake.

[Kaveh]

Addiction is personal weakness. Everyone wants to do 8 balls and fuck 25 year old brunettes all day, that’s irrelevant. It’s a manifestation of a supremely selfish and unexamined life. Duterte has the right idea

[Vormotus]

Everyone wants to do 8 balls and fuck 25 year old brunettes all day, that’s irrelevant.


https://i.imgur.com/YOYEtej.gif

[Ennewi]

Addiction is personal weakness.

"When scientists began to study addictive behavior in the 1930s, people addicted were thought to be morally flawed and lacking in willpower..." —National Institute on Drug Abuse

Addiction is a double life, often with the second overtaking the first in terms of importance, having been developed in an attempt to regain equilibrium. A large portion of veterans who suffer from physical/mental trauma avoid treatment for chemical dependence due in part to VA wait times, but also because it is perceived as a weakness. This stigma perpetuates the issue by isolating the addict even as addiction becomes more commonplace.

https://www.ptsd.va.gov/understand/related/substance_abuse_vet.asp
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5587184/
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.557.2429&rep=rep1&type=pdf

https://www.ocregister.com/2008/07/25/an-iraq-war-hero-dies-at-home-of-a-drug-overdose/

Duterte has the right idea

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/10/kill-duterte-tells-newly-appointed-police-chief-191018051124756.html

Ishmael becomes a junior lieutenant for his skill in executing prisoners of war and is put in charge of a small group of other child soldiers. As a child soldier Ishmael is exposed to extreme violence and drug usage. The drugs he used are described in the book as "brown brown", "white pills", cocaine, and marijuana.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Long_Way_Gone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJPvPZwUSKY

By not having the same degree of exposure to violence/illicit substances, his American peers were weaker than him as competitors and not even fully capable of understanding why that was.

It’s a manifestation of a supremely selfish and unexamined life.

Stephen King, Hubert Selby Jr., and Charles Bukowski all knew addiction differently, but about as intimately as one can without dying. That doesn't mean those experiences were responsible for their genius, but that the examination of life itself and consideration for other lives did not cease during those bouts of personal weakness, as indicated by the volume and content their creative output.

You really have a talent for writing. Do you have some sort of blog?

While certain blogs headed up by independent journalists and history buffs are great sources of information, the format causes the writing to shift from open/active discussion to dictation and all with the forethought of reaching larger audiences and subsequent advertisers. Blogs/vlogs are for those with enough working knowledge to present facts in ways that engage even the most casual reader/viewer, making them feel as though they are active participants. Instagram is even suitable for this, as the photos allow for detailed captions, having no character limit afaik. A good example of these types would be lindybeige (youtube) and myleslea (instagram). Forums are for everyone else who, not having the same expertise, actively participate in correcting and ribbing each other through an exchange of links/quotes that are more or less useful in the end. I am everyone else.

[Xruptor]

I doubt this game will ever be released at this point. If it does, I highly doubt it will be the holy grail people keep thinking it is. I've seen videos and screenshots and so far it just doesn't look all that great. Then again to be absolutely fair what we've been seeing is early alpha stuff. But how long has this thing been in production? Also they lost Brad :( That just really sucks and he was a visionary. Not sure how they well they can do without his insight around. Though I'm pretty sure they have a direction they are taking and following. R.I.P Brad you created us such great adventures.

[Donkey Hotay]

"Hey man, what if we ripped off all these MUDs and put it in 3D like Doom."

The VisionTM! Man, we really lost another Steve Jobs there. Thank goodness Musk is still alive or life wouldn't be worth our daily soy.

[Vormotus]

Stephen King, Hubert Selby Jr., and Charles Bukowski all knew addiction differently, but about as intimately as one can without dying. That doesn't mean those experiences were responsible for their genius, but that the examination of life itself and consideration for other lives did not cease during those bouts of personal weakness, as indicated by the volume and content their creative output.





Beautifully put my friend, beautifully put indeed.

All of your other points were quite interesting, but this one was the only one that got me.

One of the many ideas I have always championed, specially in youth, is to squash all normatives of pretense.

WHat I mean by this?

That one of the flaws of old generations is , to better fit into a social spectrum, fall back into mental concepts that flirt with generalization due to peer pressure.

This seemingly old concept is the woe of the modern virtual grounds due to accessibility it affords.

VIdeo> https://youtu.be/BgRoiTWkBHU


So much I could add, but it is unnecessary.

Loved your comment!

Big hug to you! Have fun!:)

[kerafym]

While certain blogs headed up by independent journalists and history buffs are great sources of information, the format causes the writing to shift from open/active discussion to dictation and all with the forethought of reaching larger audiences and subsequent advertisers. Blogs/vlogs are for those with enough working knowledge to present facts in ways that engage even the most casual reader/viewer, making them feel as though they are active participants. Instagram is even suitable for this, as the photos allow for detailed captions, having no character limit afaik. A good example of these types would be lindybeige (youtube) and myleslea (instagram). Forums are for everyone else who, not having the same expertise, actively participate in correcting and ribbing each other through an exchange of links/quotes that are more or less useful in the end. I am everyone else.

I've never been more entertained by someone's writing in my whole life :D

[Bisonzabi]

Superstitious lines of text read better coming from an NPC in Norrath rather than an individual on Earth. The stigma addicts have faced is part of a larger education problem. Who cares about PR other than big corporations, politicians, and social media influencers preoccupied with image and polls? Looking back, it's reasonable to say that McQuaid earned his name in the industry almost in spite of public relations, which underscores the quality of his work and the games he worked on. A supposed overdose is only fodder for the usual trolls who seek relevance through outrage and are content with gaining it anonymously online. Still, even that is a game of sorts. Brad himself had said that indifference was worse than any negative feedback or trolling. But if anything, the gaming community ought to be the first to empathize or at least relate, considering the number of addicts within it, some recovering and others on-again, off-again. This is of course assuming your assumption is right, which is not much different from the blind leading the blind.

There's no superstition around the fact that Brad had a drug addiction in his past and relapse is highly potential among hardcore users. PR is important if you have investors/customers that have had continued interest into your project especially when the main lead head falls over and dies unexpectedly. Let me ask you this; what did Brad die from? Why has the company withheld this information? I seen game devs pass away from all corners of the industry, when they do, usually their closest friends or the company they work for tells the press and community on what happened. Take a look at the passing of Matt McDonald. DBG wasn't shy of mentioning he committed suicide as the cause of his death. For Brad, the only notion we got was that he just 'died' which will immediately make people speculate considering his past endeavors. I'm not trying be negative towards Brad like he's some type of bad person for being addicted to drugs, but rather just facing the reality that this is the most likely scenario on how he went out.

[Bisonzabi]

Then again to be absolutely fair what we've been seeing is early alpha stuff. But how long has this thing been in production?

The game has been in pre-alpha since December 2017 but production has been going on since mid-2014.

[Kaveh]

https://i.imgur.com/YOYEtej.gif

This is the way. I have spoken

[Ennewi]

There's no superstition around the fact that Brad had a drug addiction in his past and relapse is highly potential among hardcore users.

Everyone seems to be working with the same unsubstantiated, secondhand information, so there are no facts only suspicions. Did any of McQuaid's former colleagues ever speak about it publicly? Was there ever any mention of it in the news—a damning photo, incident, arrest, or court appearance? If not than it's hearsay, which is why online articles rarely even allude to it in parentheses. Also, there are other comments floating around the internet that call into question the long-standing drug narrative.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/de4iz3/pantheon_rise_of_the_fallen_head_brad_mcquaid/

Bior37
3 points
2 months ago
Seems some people in this thread didn't even read what was said.

It was a pretty thorough, hastily written response.

My favorite thing is the "Brad was on drugs" things refuses to die despite the fact that it was debunked ages ago. The rumor came from ONE disgruntled fan-site owner who posted a lot of conspiracy nonsense back in the day.

PR is important if you have investors/customers that have had continued interest into your project especially when the main lead head falls over and dies unexpectedly.

With the passing of McQuaid, Project Faerthale is likely now more than just a proof of concept, as it can serve as a touchstone or reference point for the dev team to fall back on when unsure about the next step forward. That should minimize any concerns about the game's future. Strategic advertising seems more worthwhile than constant PR. The most recent trailer for Skyblivion is a good example of this, especially when compared to that channel's streamed content which draws in significantly less viewers (though it is cool to watch their artists bring character models to life).

Let me ask you this; what did Brad die from?

More importantly, what did he live for? To quote from Bukowski, "You can't beat death but you can beat death in life, sometimes." For McQuaid, EverQuest was one of those times. Vanguard could have been and, by most accounts, should have been another one. Pantheon could be as well, though posthumously. Time will tell. It is strange that the last virtual world of his is named Terminus, unless of course he had been aware of an illness and simply didn't want that distracting from the game itself. Who knows. Speculation is for those who try to finish other people's sentences; even if you're right, it's still bad manners.

[Ennewi]

"Hey man, what if we ripped off all these MUDs and put it in 3D like Doom."

The VisionTM! Man, we really lost another Steve Jobs there. Thank goodness Musk is still alive or life wouldn't be worth our daily soy.

“Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: “It’s not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to."― Jim Jarmusch

[getlostgreg]

i would not expect it anytime soon unless they sell the IP

During one of the Brad memorial streams the dwarf lady mentioned that they've been searching for publishers and more investors since Brad passed.

[Vormotus]

“Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don’t bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: “It’s not where you take things from - it’s where you take them to."― Jim Jarmusch

Gaudi had a very interesting take on originality as well, look it up, its amazing.

Nice to quote Jean-Luc as well. +1 from my side to you :D
https://i.imgur.com/XCavvfK.gif

[Glacios]

I haven't had a chance to watch the stream yet but I skimmed the responses of forum users and it seemed fairly positive:

Pantheon Dev Stream (https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/11410/12-12-19-stream-now-available)

[Donkey Hotay]

Well, between Ennewi's appeals to the authority of Reddit comments and the even more sagacious commenters at pantheonmmo.com, how could a person with a body temperature IQ not be won over.

[Vormotus]

Well, between Ennewi's appeals to the authority of Reddit comments and the even more sagacious commenters at pantheonmmo.com, how could a person with a body temperature IQ not be won over.

Thats Celsius or Fahrenheit? :confused:

[Hazek]

You'd think they'd realize the importance of proper mob reaction sounds and flinching by now at minimum. Hard to stay hopeful when something as obvious as that is overlooked.

[Evia]

I watched 85-90% of that dev video, and I really wanted to like it, but it doesn't look great.

I'm really hoping I'm wrong and it ends up being fantastic. The fact that it's still in Alpha means there could be massive room for improvement but it also is sketchy because of how long the games been in development.

Hoping I'm wrong. We need a updated MMO with old school heart and spirit.

[Hazek]

I watched 85-90% of that dev video, and I really wanted to like it, but it doesn't look great.

I'm really hoping I'm wrong and it ends up being fantastic. The fact that it's still in Alpha means there could be massive room for improvement but it also is sketchy because of how long the games been in development.

Hoping I'm wrong. We need a updated MMO with old school heart and spirit.

And there's people trying to corrupt it talking about adding instances and a cash shop other garbage that we get in every other game. Trying to "modernize" it which really just means ruin it. Like that's the complete opposite of what Pantheon is supposed to be. And they've already added giant flat colored nameplates and debuff icons over the mobs so not looking good. Even though the world art looks amazing.

[Vormotus]

And there's people trying to corrupt it talking about adding instances and a cash shop other garbage that we get in every other game. Trying to "modernize" it which really just means ruin it. Like that's the complete opposite of what Pantheon is supposed to be. And they've already added giant flat colored nameplates and debuff icons over the mobs so not looking good. Even though the world art looks amazing.

Wow that is baaaaad, cash shops are the first sign the game will try to harvest and burn everything they can off the game for a quick profit.

[Sonnenkrieger]

Wow that is baaaaad, cash shops are the first sign the game will try to harvest and burn everything they can off the game for a quick profit.Yes, but by people talking about it, he means forum people. Visionary Realms have repeatedly said that Pantheon will not feature a cash shop.

[Hazek]

Yes, but by people talking about it, he means forum people. Visionary Realms have repeatedly said that Pantheon will not feature a cash shop.

After adding nameplates and debuff icons under mobs they might as well add a cash shop because that already ruins the "spirit of EQ" feel to it. And thats really the only thing that would have made it different from every other MMO. Because its not like acclimation or the perception system is anything special (or the combat) because its just like an achievement popup that tells you when to look for secrets. Not sure why they felt the need to add that instead of just putting secrets in the game for us to discover on our own. Well I think I know why but its a dumb reason.

I guess its good that they wont include instances and still require corpse runs. If they stick to that. But all they had to do was make good feeling combat like classic WoW except with more abilities so its not watered down with a low skill cap, then have a minimal UI with no target rings, telegraphs, nameplates or other garbage, and put secrets and corpse runs in the game. And no instances. That's literally the recipe for an MMO that will save the genre. Besides some other nuance systems that I came up with to prevent end game stagnation and bottleneck camps like "sidegrades", that I won't go into.

[Sonnenkrieger]

After adding nameplates and debuff icons under mobs they might as well add a cash shop because that already ruins the "spirit of EQ" feel to it. And thats really the only thing that would have made it different from every other MMO. Because its not like acclimation or the perception system is anything special (or the combat) because its just like an achievement popup that tells you when to look for secrets. Not sure why they felt the need to add that instead of just putting secrets in the game for us to discover on our own. Well I think I know why but its a dumb reason.

I guess its good that they wont include instances and still require corpse runs. If they stick to that. But all they had to do was make good feeling combat like classic WoW except with more abilities so its not watered down with a low skill cap, then have a minimal UI with no target rings, telegraphs, nameplates or other garbage, and put secrets and corpse runs in the game. And no instances. That's literally the recipe for an MMO that will save the genre. Besides some other nuance systems that I came up with to prevent end game stagnation and bottleneck camps like "sidegrades", that I won't go into.I agree that the nameplates are dumb, but you completely lost me at the WoW part. Everything about so-called Classic WoW is absolute trash. It just happens to be less trashy than new WoW, but that's not saying much at all.

[bubur]

still boggles the mind that no one except blizzard put time into making combat fast and responsive

no comment here about wow's philosophy or other gameplay. It was one of the few post-eq mmos where combat didn't feel like you're operating some shotty mud truck, imo ofc

I hope that vanguard 2 puts some effort into the feel of the thing you're doing 90% of the time while playing the game. I don't care how shiny the ground is, if your char looks and feels like a clay golem it's weird... Looking at you eq2

[Fawqueue]

Massively put out there predictions for 2020, and it's not a good sign that they almost universally forgot to mention Pantheon at all. They covered almost every other game, even announcements of EverQuest 3, but Pantheon has just slipped their minds.

[Sonnenkrieger]

Massively put out there predictions for 2020, and it's not a good sign that they almost universally forgot to mention Pantheon at all. They covered almost every other game, even announcements of EverQuest 3, but Pantheon has just slipped their minds.Pantheon probably won't be out until late 2021 or early 2022, so that's not a surprise. And anyway, in reference to Massively, how is that "not a good sign"? Massively is an irrelevant website for normies that care about so-called video game journalism.

[Nirgon]

It's a cringe for sure

[Hazek]

I agree that the nameplates are dumb, but you completely lost me at the WoW part. Everything about so-called Classic WoW is absolute trash. It just happens to be less trashy than new WoW, but that's not saying much at all.

Well the combat, abilities and animations feel great even though that's my opinion and despite it having a low skill cap from a limited number of options. Even jumping was fun.

[getlostgreg]

Well the combat, abilities and animations feel great

Totally agree.

In retail WoW I play a warrior and absolutely love the way combat feels. My AOE stomp, my AOE slash, my filler where my troll jumps in the air and slashes down. It's great.

Now imagine that rewarding combat while you're hanging out in a dungeon camping some random room EQ-style. Sounds pretty chill to me.

[Fawqueue]

Pantheon probably won't be out until late 2021 or early 2022, so that's not a surprise. And anyway, in reference to Massively, how is that "not a good sign"? Massively is an irrelevant website for normies that care about so-called video game journalism.

It's also a barometer for how much relevance Pantheon has with a wide audience. If a 'normie' website like Massively has all but forgotten it, while still heavily including comparable games like Camelot Unchained an Crowfall, then you've got a problem. No press until you launch because everyone stopped caring is not the recipe for a successful game.

[Horza]

I assume that normies means someone who isn't on the autism spectrum.

[Hazek]

I assume that normies means someone who isn't on the autism spectrum.

No its the people who are still brainwashed by TV and who act like those characters.

[Sonnenkrieger]

It's also a barometer for how much relevance Pantheon has with a wide audience. If a 'normie' website like Massively has all but forgotten it, while still heavily including comparable games like Camelot Unchained an Crowfall, then you've got a problem. No press until you launch because everyone stopped caring is not the recipe for a successful game.Well, since you want to use shitty video game news websites as a barometer, here. Pantheon won the Most Anticipated MMO category at MMORPG.com (a website that gets a lot more traffic than MassivelyOP based on Similarweb and Alexa) with almost half the total votes

https://www.mmorpg.com/awards/players-choice-awards-2019-winners-1000014201

The game is absolutely not forgotten just because some video game "journalists" don't talk about it much.

[Life617]

Gamers, it’s like taking candy from a baby. How many go fund me’s is it gonna take for people to learn this lesson, don’t pay for promises. Make these bitches start signing contracts saying if said game isnt finished by “this date” we take your house, car, savings, and throw you and your families stupid asses out on the street. That will motivate them to get some work done.

[Hazek]

Well, since you want to use shitty video game news websites as a barometer, here. Pantheon won the Most Anticipated MMO category at MMORPG.com (a website that gets a lot more traffic than MassivelyOP based on Similarweb and Alexa) with almost half the total votes

https://www.mmorpg.com/awards/players-choice-awards-2019-winners-1000014201

The game is absolutely not forgotten just because some video game "journalists" don't talk about it much.

Especially since Crowfall is objectively garbage and shouldn't even be mentioned. Coming from someone who's an early bird backer.

And you can still get lots of players, sometimes even more than "appealing to a wide audience" because that mentality can dilute or ruin the game.

[Hazek]

Gamers, it’s like taking candy from a baby. How many go fund me’s is it gonna take for people to learn this lesson, don’t pay for promises. Make these bitches start signing contracts saying if said game isnt finished by “this date” we take your house, car, savings, and throw you and your families stupid asses out on the street. That will motivate them to get some work done.

That's a problem because they can take people's money and never release it or even run out of funds like you're saying. But they can also release an unfinished game and call it finished.

So I think the best solution is to calculate the expenses to begin with like how many assets you need in total; crowdfund it, then pay the artists, programmers, etc for exactly what they finish.

Then sell the box for $60 if its a high quality game (which it should be), split the profit reasonably, and crowdfund the server costs and salaries to keep it alive. And if it doesn't get funded then the game doesn't continue (which is unlikely if its a good game). And if the salaries don't get paid, which is part of it, then they made plenty of profit already and can build another game or do something else.

They should also agree in the beginning on who's going to stay on the team after release to manage it, and who's only a contract like artists.

And you keep the "monthly crowdfund" private while using the surplus for future months or even splitting it as profit. That way everyone will be inclined to donate, even if only $1 a month (which should be enough with lots of people playing). And if it doesn't get funded for a month then you take it down for a week until the minimum is met; which includes the salaries they choose (which should be reasonable, if at all because they could just crowdfund the server costs alone while doing no other work to manage it, or "volunteer" like p1999).

Expansions could use the same system.

[Jeston]

They want you to purchase it and pay a sub AND FUCKING HAVE COSMETICS AND ACHIEVEMENTS SYSTEM, I will tell you what happened Brad got strong-armed out of the position of consultant to the game by the fags over there. Brad became depressed over his back-seat position and ruining of what he thought would be a good new mmo and died to drug use or suicide or both.

Games gonna sink like a lead fucking zeppelin.

[Draulius]

https://i.imgur.com/2VMHbnZ.png

Imagine making fun of the man who is the reason this game and website (and many others you play daily) even exist. Some of you people are screwed in the head...

Drugs or not least the guy got shit done.

[Jeston]

Imagine making fun of the man who is the reason this game and website (and many others you play daily) even exist. Some of you people are screwed in the head...

Drugs or not least the guy got shit done.


Yeah, well least brad will have memes about him, the guy who posted it no one will even know when he dies.

[Hazek]

They want you to purchase it and pay a sub AND FUCKING HAVE COSMETICS AND ACHIEVEMENTS SYSTEM, I will tell you what happened Brad got strong-armed out of the position of consultant to the game by the fags over there. Brad became depressed over his back-seat position and ruining of what he thought would be a good new mmo and died to drug use or suicide or both.

Games gonna sink like a lead fucking zeppelin.

That's how I feel too. I think he saw the dream being stolen from him and going in a direction he didn't like. And since he was putting all of his heart into the game.

I made a bunch of videos for them early on that was synonymous with his vision of building worlds and he was one of the few, if not the only one, who would agree and like what I posted, etc.

And there's at least one person on the team that has the poisonous "modern MMO" mentality that contradicts what Brad and the core EQ community wants. You can also see it in some of the game's features. And that doesn't mean you can't have "better" systems but not if you start "copying crap from the clones" because you're trying to "appeal to the masses" which can ironically backfire since it makes the game suck and look like every other failed MMO. /cough target rings

[Tethler]

I will tell you what happened Brad got strong-armed out of the position of consultant to the game by the fags over there. Brad became depressed over his back-seat position and ruining of what he thought would be a good new mmo and died to drug use or suicide or both.



Got any evidence of that? Or is it just your "feelings"? If you actually have something legit, I'd be interested to see it.

[Hazek]

Got any evidence of that? Or is it just your "feelings"? If you actually have something legit, I'd be interested to see it.

Well some evidence is they wont reveal the cause of death. So suicide, drugs, foul play? What other reasons. And why would he feel that way if he's making "the next great game" and fulfilling the vision after he's been trying for years after EQ? I know what he was trying to do with Pantheon. And the current state of the game isn't what he wanted because the combat looks like crap (not talking about TTK or time to kill) and the world is ruined by artificial elements like nameplates and target rings; and he knew it.

[Jeston]

Got any evidence of that? Or is it just your "feelings"? If you actually have something legit, I'd be interested to see it.

Called Occam's razor, look into it.

[Tethler]

Called Occam's razor, look into it.

I see. "feelings" it is.

[Tethler]

Well some evidence is they wont reveal the cause of death. So suicide, drugs, foul play? What other reasons. And why would he feel that way if he's making "the next great game" and fulfilling the vision after he's been trying for years after EQ? I know what he was trying to do with Pantheon. And the current state of the game isn't what he wanted because the combat looks like crap (not talking about TTK or time to kill) and the world is ruined by artificial elements like nameplates and target rings; and he knew it.

It's possible, but possibility does not = evidence. Don't state speculation as fact.

[Jeston]

I see. "feelings" it is.

Yeah I figured the wiki might be a little too complicated for you, boomers and technology...

[Hazek]

It's possible, but possibility does not = evidence. Don't state speculation as fact.

Its definitely evidence, just not proof.

[Tethler]

Yeah I figured the wiki might be a little too complicated for you, boomers and technology...

Ok guy, since you seem to have congnitive issues, I'll explain for you. I know what Occam's Razor is, and "Occam's Razor hurr durr" isn't an argument. If you think that train of thought is the simplest solution, then you're dumber than you sound.

Drug addicts don't necessarily need to be depressed to take drugs. If a drug addict is depressed, it could be for 1000 different reasons. To conclude that his depression (if he was even depressed at the time of his death) was caused by some workplace power struggle is far from the simplest answer.

As it hasn't been publicly disclosed, we don't even know if drugs were the cause of death. He might have had a heart attack or any number of health related problems stemming from an unhealthy lifestyle and years of drug use.

And finally, I'm 37. Far from a boomer.

Sorry about your brain damage.

[Hazek]

He might have had a heart attack or any number of health related problems stemming from an unhealthy lifestyle and years of drug use.

Why would they refuse to reveal the cause of death though unless its something controversial?

[Tethler]

Why would they refuse to reveal the cause of death though unless its something controversial?

Some families want privacy. My guess is drug overdose or suicide though.

[Midoo]

Pantheon will be EQ2 all over again

[Evia]

Pantheon will be EQ2 all over again

And vanguard...

[Nirgon]

So you think he snortled himself to death

[branamil]

Pantheon is not coming out btw

[Hazek]

Pantheon is not coming out btw

Bet they squandered all the money on stupid things like hiring Brasse then had to look for investors who are now ruining the game by refusing to remove things like target rings. Brad thought, "oh crap not this again". And now they're not getting more pledges either. The end. /tinfoil

[getlostgreg]

According to the producer's letter (http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_december_producers_letter/) that got posted a few days ago their goals for 2020 appear to be Pre-Alpha 5, full Alpha and finishing the zone they've been building all year.

[Wonkie]

So you think he snortled himself to death

I think it's kinda ugly to speculate about it, dead is dead. :(

[Fawqueue]

According to the producer's letter (http://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2019_december_producers_letter/) that got posted a few days ago their goals for 2020 appear to be Pre-Alpha 5, full Alpha and finishing the zone they've been building all year.

It would be interesting to dive back and see what their goals were the past few years. How many of them included having full alpha out in the coming year, only to end the year hardly further than they started?

I'm fairly confident at least the 2018 goal was. I know my $1000 pledge buddy was insistent it would be Q1 and argued with me about it on multiple occasions.

[vossiewulf]

Some families want privacy. My guess is drug overdose or suicide though.

That is almost always the case, and satisfying people's curiosity is never a good reason to publicly discuss what is by any definition still a private matter regardless of how widespread someone is known.

Pantheon will be EQ2 all over again

Dude this is the second time I've seen a post from you where I agree fully with what you're saying but I'm wondering how do you know the right answers to these questions when you were neg 1 at classic launch and four or five at EQ2 launch. Other one was the classic vanilla server load question.

[Midoo]

Dude this is the second time I've seen a post from you where I agree fully with what you're saying but I'm wondering how do you know the right answers to these questions when you were neg 1 at classic launch and four or five at EQ2 launch. Other one was the classic vanilla server load question.

Sometimes a historian will retell an event that happened 800 years ago with such thoroughly researched accuracy and detailed description that you could swear he was there to see it himself, because passion justifies effort

Either that or I'm a time traveler

[heyokah]

And vanguard...

I actually loved vanguard.....once they sorted everything out. Raiding Ancient Port Warehouse is a very vivid memory. There has been an emulator in the works for like 3-4 years. Haven't checked on it in a while, but from what I remember its development was similar to p99. AKA a couple dude who loved the game and wanted to bring it back.

[Shrubwise]

Pantheon is not coming out btw

[Canelek]

It certainly has that EverquestNext vibe to it eh?

[Fawqueue]

It certainly has that EverquestNext vibe to it eh?

I think it's more akin to Vanguard. It's not going to be an unrealized, unrealistic pipe dream like Next. It'll instead be a sloppy mess that made big promises, drops the ball on launch, and limps around until it's death with a few hundred players who will swear for the next ten years it was amazing after they fixed all the issues.

[aaezil]

Pre alpha for years now big yikes

[Cen]

Sometimes a historian will retell an event that happened 800 years ago with such thoroughly researched accuracy and detailed description that you could swear he was there to see it himself, because passion justifies effort

Either that or I'm a time traveler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_f177k0ytA

Your comment totally reminded me of this :D

[Cen]

Pre alpha for years now big yikes

Im not a backer, but I will play devils advocate and say that kickstarters versus mainstream game creation has one major difference in the supposed illusory "length" of creation.. because when a mainstream game is announced, its gone years and years past its developmental start, and kickstarters you hear about before development begins. So it appears to take longer, even in the rarer success stories of kickstarter games.

[Ranarius]

because when a mainstream game is announced, its gone years and years past its developmental start, and kickstarters you hear about before development begins. So it appears to take longer, even in the rarer success stories of kickstarter games.

Totally agree with this. I was frustrated at how long pantheon was taking to create so I started researching how long other games took to create. I found information that made me feel much better. Most other games that were created by much larger teams that also had way more money available still took years to get to beta.

My only fear is that technology changes so fast when a game takes 6+ years to finish, unless the contest is truly amazing, it'll fail due to it feeling old.

I actually just backed the game a few days ago. I understand it might not succeed, but I backed it because I have hope. I wanted to support the idea of the game.

[Mblake81]

hmm, anyone testing Saga of Lucimia (https://sagaoflucimia.com/)? is this positive incline or kidney stabber decline?

Get back to basics with a challenge-based MMORPG focusing on epic adventure the moment you step outside the safety of the city walls.

Welcome back to the days of group-based gaming. Explore a world filled with lore-rich storylines and emergent gameplay where COMMUNITY is everything!

Zero quest hubs, zero fetch quests, no mini-maps, a massive world to explore, and a classless, skill-based game where you create your own story with friends.

https://i.imgur.com/RquzgeJ.jpg

Lucimia (https://massivelyop.com/2018/12/03/saga-of-lucimias-pre-alpha-11-is-live-december-8-with-swg-style-battle-wounds-and-fatigue/) is touting its new patcher, shared banks, inventory upgrades, and nerfed overland animals in the outpost zone (they’re harder as you spread out; for example, “mobs in the 4k zone are tuned for groups of 4 to 8 players”). Wounds and battle fatigue are in too, in case you’re up for some of those old-school “designed downtime” mechanics.

[azeth]

I think it's more akin to Vanguard. It's not going to be an unrealized, unrealistic pipe dream like Next. It'll instead be a sloppy mess that made big promises, drops the ball on launch, and limps around until it's death with a few hundred players who will swear for the next ten years it was amazing after they fixed all the issues.

Vanguard was the best video game I've ever played.

[Renfail]

hmm, anyone testing Saga of Lucimia (https://sagaoflucimia.com/)? is this positive incline or kidney stabber decline?

We've been in closed alpha with our early access community since April of 2019, so we haven't shown anything to the public for the past year. We've been hunkered down making sure our investors are getting their money's worth.

In April, we're going live with a series of streams via approved content creators who are part of our new affiliate program, so those of you who have been waiting to see what we've been working on for the past year will be able to get a glimpse via those streams/channels.

Q&A sessions will be kicking off in March with some screenshot teases, and then approved streamers will be live-streaming our game via guided sessions starting in April (which is when Stage Three of our alpha kicks off), which is also when we will be re-opening the pre-order store for the next round of testers to join us.

Stage Three is still closed alpha with NDAs, but for those who want to wait and see, you'll be able to watch via the aforementioned content creators and follow along with development.

Website is also under revamp presently, and should be live around March/April, so we have a lot of things going on :)

We also have a launch window officially confirmed now; more info can be found over on the website.

Edited to add: Renfail = Tim Anderson, creative director of the Saga of Lucimia, and CEO of Stormhaven Studios. I realized I didn't have a signature here despite having been a part of the community for the past four or five years with our gaming community off and on.

[Smellybuttface]

hmm, anyone testing Saga of Lucimia (https://sagaoflucimia.com/)? is this positive incline or kidney stabber decline?

I’ve watched a number of gameplay videos of it, and I think it looks really promising. My only complaint is a small one: the music. It seems to be this sort of 16-bit accordion with the same song perpetually on loop, whether in combat or not. I think if there were a montage of me slowly going insane, with laughing faces overlaid onto images of my body spiraling down a dark hole, it would be this music reaching a loud crescendo in the background.

[Renfail]

I’ve watched a number of gameplay videos of it, and I think it looks really promising. My only complaint is a small one: the music. It seems to be this sort of 16-bit accordion with the same song perpetually on loop, whether in combat or not. I think if there were a montage of me slowly going insane, with laughing faces overlaid onto images of my body spiraling down a dark hole, it would be this music reaching a loud crescendo in the background.

What you were listening to in any of our pre-alpha videos was very rough music put together for the sake of just having something.

We've had James Stratton-Crawley working with us for the past year and a half and I don't think we've revealed any of his music to the public yet, other than a teaser, so there's a lot that folks haven't heard.

You'll be hearing his new music in our upcoming streams in April, so stay tuned!

[Nuggie]

Will check this out in the near future.

[Fawqueue]

Am I the only one that wanted to hate on Saga of Lucimia for no good reason, went to look at some screenshots and gameplay footage so I'd know what I was talking about, and then sort of liked what I saw enough to completely change my mind and now find myself interested in following that project?

Hopefully not. Kinda like what you guys are doing. Looking forward to hearing more.

[Renfail]

Am I the only one that wanted to hate on Saga of Lucimia for no good reason, went to look at some screenshots and gameplay footage so I'd know what I was talking about, and then sort of liked what I saw enough to completely change my mind and now find myself interested in following that project?

Hopefully not. Kinda like what you guys are doing. Looking forward to hearing more.

Cheers.

It's a slow, grassroots project, and we don't have any celebrity attached to the project, but we've made steady progress over the past six years, and we're a couple years from launch now.

We still have a lot of polish to add over the rest of alpha and beta, but we're getting there :) Glad you liked what you saw!

There's a lot of visual change in between the last things we showed publicly (beginning of 2019) and what we're revealing in April of this year. New UI, more/better VFX, and a lot of new art/assets to show off :)

[Danth]

so sick of the years away from launch on all these games and nothing has come out for what 10 years?

we have more money and computing power then ever yet games come out even slower

get funding, hire more indian kids and get to work. if it takes longer then a year to release you are trying to do too much content, get your project out there and start earning money

It's a variant or consequence of "Wirth's Law" in practice. As technology progresses, games (and all sorts of software more generally) are becoming more and more complicated at a rate faster than development tools are improving. Hence development cycles take longer and longer. This reality has undoubtedly harmed the MMORPG genre specifically since such games have become too expensive to build quickly and expect a reasonable return, and too slow to build cheaply for most investors to tolerate. Concepts like Unity were intended to help solve these problems but haven't yet made more than a modest dent.

Danth

[Renfail]

It's a variant or consequence of "Wirth's Law" in practice. As technology progresses, games (and all sorts of software more generally) are becoming more and more complicated at a rate faster than development tools are improving. Hence development cycles take longer and longer. This reality has undoubtedly harmed the MMORPG genre specifically since such games have become too expensive to build quickly and expect a reasonable return, and too slow to build cheaply for most investors to tolerate. Concepts like Unity were intended to help solve these problems but haven't yet made more than a modest dent.

Danth

While that may factor in, there's a lot more at work.

First and foremost, in the "traditional" development cycle from an established company with an existing budget, a company wouldn't release information about their game until it was at the most, two years out from launch. They would already have a fairly solid product by that point, with enough polish on it to be ready to start teasing to the public what was coming out in the relatively near future.

In the above scenario, the illusion is that games only take a "few years" to develop, because players were never privy to the four-to-six years of development time that took place prior to the publicity, and thus players never felt like it was taking "ages and ages" for a game on their radar to reach completion.

Enter crowdfunding and the way a lot of indie teams are doing things these days, ourselves included. In order to generate interest from investors or publishers, you must first generate interest from players and prove the value of your idea. In order to do that, you need to showcase your idea or, better yet, some form of a playable tech demo. You come up with your pitch, launch your demo, get some followers and/or Kickstarter money, and from there you head to investors/publishers.

The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

Pushing projects into the public eye at such an early stage is something that had, up until the last half dozen years or so, never been done before. No one has ever seen pre-alphas; traditionally those were always done internally, and the product never shown to the public until it was ready for beta. At the very least, only select testers would get involved during an alpha, and most alphas don't start until at least two to three years of work has already been done on a pre-alpha product.

A traditional MMORPG follows a development cycle that is somewhat like: one year of armchair design/creating the master design document; two to three years of programming and pre-alpha; two to four years of alpha; around a year of beta, half of which is public.

On the short end, you're looking at a six year development cycle. On the longer end, anywhere from eight to nine years.

Up until this past decade, players had never been privy to the massive chunk of time most companies put into games before sharing them with the public. Once indie companies starting sharing things right out of the gate as soon as there was a master document and/or the tech demo ready to go, suddenly players were exposed to anywhere from four to six years of development time that they had previously never seen before.

"This game looks like shit", people will say of any indie game that is showing footage from pre-alpha or alpha. Of course it does. You've never seen games in this early stage of development before.

It's like looking at a house being built and only seeing the foundation and the framing and claiming "this house looks like shit". Of course it does. It's not finished. It hasn't had drywall hung, flooring installed, siding, roofing, paint, interior decoration, and beyond. Only when the house is finished can you make a judgement call on whether or not it is a "beautiful" home.

"It's taking forever", they say. Not really. It's taking the same time it's always taken. You just never saw the ingredients being mixed together before they were baked into the cake that then had icing put on it while you watched and salivated in anticipation.

Development cycles aren't any longer today on MMORPGs than they were a decade ago. In fact, the tools have gotten better and better and easier to use, networking solutions exist today that weren't even imagined back in 1999, and teams like ours with ZERO previous experience have been able to make a big enough impression to land investors + publisher interest (not that we've accepted any of the offers since everyone to-dated has wanted us to go free to play with a cash shop and we're hardwired for buy-to-play with a monthly sub; I've turned down between 2 and 4 million dollar offers from publishers like Gamigo, Jagex, and Perfect World Entertanment starting back in 2017).

So it's a little bit of everything.

For us, personally, we'll be seven-to-eight year bracket if we hit all of our targets on the head. Right on the money in terms of how long a traditional MMORPG takes to get built.

[Smellybuttface]

Didnt read your post but if your game takes years it will be pointless and youll make nothing.

Right now is a good opportunity to release something and have it be very successful and profitable, the only current "Hot" Game is classic wow and its literally re released content, they pulled in 8-9m subs and i bet you dont even have 10k in the bank due to your dirt poor thinking process

You sound like a level-headed, reasonable, intelligent economist. Certainly knows what he’s talking about, and understands the intricacies of developing and releasing intellectual property.

[Danth]

Development cycles aren't any longer today on MMORPGs than they were a decade ago.

Right. I was thinking longer term. The progression of technology has been pronounced. Atari games took one guy a few weeks to make. Nintendo games, a small team maybe a couple months. Early MMORPG's like EQ (~3 years start to finish) and DAOC (~2 years) were slow even for standards of their era, but still manageable. Warcraft took what, ~4 years and 70-80 million dollars? It was very slow and hugely expensive for its era, but as it turned out it was merely highlighting the new normal. Vanguard took ~4.5 years and came out prematurely, to its doom. As you mention, since about that time things have stabilized somewhat, probably because pressure (time, funding, etc) won't really permit development cycles to keep growing forever--there's a practical limit that we've probably reached.

I had read about Lucimia years ago but quite forgot about it. Thanks for posting, I'll keep an eye on your progress. The wife and I have been looking for interesting traditional-style online role playing games for awhile now.

As an aside, I *have* seen "Alpha" Everquest. It looked bad, really really bad. You aren't kidding about the risks involved with releasing alpha footage. I understand the nature of such things but a lot of folks don't.

Danth