Necro's and Shamans wont get charm as per Rogean.

[Sillyturtle]

He replied to my bug thread.

I am disappointed that they're cherrypicking classic things.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2983120#post2983120

[Dolalin]

To be fair to them it is a thorny change with some unanswered mechanics questions of how the resistance/charisma checks would work, and it was very clearly unbalanced at the time.

[nilbog]

Due to the finite time between the initial bug report about this issue and the release date of the Green server, I do not feel it is appropriate to allow charm for classes without fully reviewing the potential repercussions.

This may or may not change in the future.

[Sillyturtle]

EDIT:Removed because I was heated.

I will say that balance doesn't and shouldnt' come into it, considering all the other changes that have been made and Balance has never been a consideration from all appearances. It was in, and should be put in. We have stupid things like 4 mob limit just because it existed.


I hope that this decision is reverted, in time for necro's to use it before the patch that it gets removed comes around.

[Baler]

Staff are more likely to add things that hinder players and less likely to add things that benefit players.

This isn't a disrespectful statement but it is the truth.

I've had conversations with people on this subject. When you give people an inch they'll take a mile so it's easy to see how players may try to take advantage of a bug report to make the game easier. There is however a blatant pattern in the bug report sections of threads where things that hinder players get reviewed/pushed through more quickly.

And yes I understand the staff are very busy with green I'm in no way trying to undermine their efforts. Nothing but Pras for the p99 staff coming from this poster.

---
Also Green (2019) will still have bugs and some non-classic things. Future Green servers will be much more complete in their classic mechanics, gameplay etc. This is a great thing for P99 and P99's future. We are lucky to be getting it.

[DMN]

HAHA in not thinking adding charm to necro's will make the game harder. Every necro NPC 24 or over will double if not triple in difficulty.

As far as players I really don't see the issue. Bards have mana free charm and mez and magic resist lowering spells and I don't even need to mention enchanters. Charming gives up the reliable DPS of the pet. when the top necro pets were hitting in the low 70s + haste they were at least as good as unhasted charmed without any risk of breaks and constant life/mana drain.

[Izmael]

Charm used to be a non-concern back then because barely anyone bothered (people were scared of pet being "pissed at them" and that their pet might "kill" them.).

Charm is a big deal on P99 because people have 20 years of EQ experience and learned to leverage it to a great extent and great gains.

You can't just add charm to necros and shamans on P99 on a whim as it may completely change / break the whatever imperfect class balance we've had since P99 exists and compromise the launch of Green.

[Kanuvan]

#nochanges can stay in classic World of warcraft, im all for a more balanced eq1, you could always stay on blue for the OP classes

[Dolalin]

I think the charm spell should still be added to NPCs if not players. This was part of the classic difficulty of necro NPCs like Meldrath, Nixx Nenix, Mistmoore etc.

[DMN]

Charm used to be a non-concern back then because barely anyone bothered (people were scared of pet being "pissed at them" and that their pet might "kill" them.).

Charm is a big deal on P99 because people have 20 years of EQ experience and learned to leverage it to a great extent and great gains.

You can't just add charm to necros and shamans on P99 on a whim as it may completely change / break the whatever imperfect class balance we've had since P99 exists and compromise the launch of Green.

I always find this logic incredibly annoying.

I wouldn't flatter yourself with "20 years experience".

charm is powerful on blue only because of the mob scaling in kunark and velious relative to pets, and the enchanter then adds a flat multiplier in haste, and a cleric can add a flat multiplier of efficiency with complete heal on top of that. they exaggerate the scaling differential. And we can throw I the easy mode pet window, the easy mode hot keys/bar.

[Dolalin]

One thing to keep in mind tho is that charming will not be big here since Clarity won't be in game till end of May (assuming change is implemented ofc). Necros also won't have Lich till September.

[Izmael]

I think the charm spell should still be added to NPCs if not players. This was part of the classic difficulty of necro NPCs like Meldrath, Nixx Nenix, Mistmoore etc.

This.

[DMN]

it's not gonna be mana constraints so much as mob constraints. when lower guk is filled with hundreds of people your group is not going to be happy with you holding onto charms for any significant period of time, as you might be lucky to hold a stake in maybe 3-4 mobs.

[loramin]

Due to the finite time between the initial bug report about this issue and the release date of the Green server, I do not feel it is appropriate to allow charm for classes without fully reviewing the potential repercussions.

This may or may not change in the future.

What happened to "I'm making it classic damn it and I don't care if no one plays here as a result?" We want that Nilbog back :)

I get both Paineel and Infected Paw, as they would require tons of work, but Charm is (basically) just flipping a switch.

And for what it's worth I'm not even planning to play a Shaman or Necromancer (although my plans do keep changing ...)

I just want to see this because, classic!

EDIT

I do always try to remember that devs have to consider lots of stuff we don't. So while I 100% think that Charm should already be repercussion-less (ie. at least in classic terms, which is all anyone should care about), especially when Enchanters have been testing it on Blue for a decade ... when I say that I'm thinking about PCs.

However, I realize the NPCs are probably the problem. We already have unclassic NPC spells here (which I mentioned in the mega thread and was basically told "we don't have the evidence to fix this"), and if we can't fix that in time for Green, throwing (potentially two levels higher than they're supposed to be) Charm spells on Shaman/Necro NPCs, when those NPCs have never been tested with them on any server, really could have some serious bad effects.

If it truly isn't possible to make this classic, all I can say is that this (and hopefully a general NPC spell fix) belongs at the very least on Green 2.0. It really won't be classic EverQuest until NPC casters are casting what they cast in '99.

[skorge]

What happened to "I'm making it classic damn it and I don't care if no one plays here as a result?" We want that Nilbog back :)

I get both Paineel and Infected Paw, as they would require tons of work, but Charm is (basically) just flipping a switch.

And for what it's worth I'm not even planning to play a Shaman or Necromancer (although my plans do keep changing ...)

I just want to see this because, classic!

EDIT

I do always try to remember that devs have to consider lots of stuff we don't. So while I 100% think that Charm should already be repercussion-less (ie. at least in classic terms, which is all anyone should care about), especially when Enchanters have been testing it on Blue for a decade ... when I say that I'm thinking about PCs.

However, I realize the NPCs are probably the problem. We already have unclassic NPC spells here (which I mentioned in the mega thread and was basically told "we don't have the evidence to fix this"), and if we can't fix that in time for Green, throwing (potentially two levels higher than they're supposed to be) Charm spells on Shaman/Necro NPCs, when those NPCs have never been tested with them on any server, really could have some serious bad effects.

If it truly isn't possible to make this classic, all I can say is that this (and hopefully a general NPC spell fix) belongs at the very least on Green 2.0. It really won't be classic EverQuest until NPC casters are casting what they cast in '99.

This is not a reason to justify Nilbog's decision but honestly back in 1999, for real for real, no necro or shaman used charm spell. In a way this decision makes the server more classic feeling. It's the same concept as knowing manastones will be removed. In real classic nobody knew they were going to be removed so the camp was always open. That would be impossible to recreate. But something like this is doable by simply not allowing it, lol.

If we had charm at launch imagine all the neckbeards taking advantage of it just because they know about it now...would be a way different launch than real '99.

I'm not trying to justify it or anything but at the same time this decision does not bother me. I just hope they don't start pets out like they are today like they did on Blue/Red launch.

[Chortles Snort|eS]

muhh classic game abuse wont be in QQ

[Rooj]

but Charm is (basically) just flipping a switch.

Why exactly, are you under this impression?

Besides that misinformation, as was already stated, do you or anyone else know or have any proof of how the Charm worked and was affected by stats or mob levels? Or any other required information so that an accurate version of this spell that would be forgotten in a couple of months could be enabled? Do you have the required data and files to implement the item tooltip info for the launch version? Do you know which NPCs sold it and which ones it would need to be removed from afterwards?

Shit's never just "flipping a switch."

Getting off topic, but this is one of the reasons I found it pretty odd that Beta started less than 2 weeks from launch. I was hoping that most of this stuff had already been figured out when Blue was new. But now I'm seeing bug reports of weird stuff like certain race/class combos not spawning new chars with guild notes, which makes me ponder what else will be found wrong in this MASSIVE world.

[loramin]

This is not a reason to justify Nilbog's decision but honestly back in 1999, for real for real, no necro or shaman used charm spell. In a way this decision makes the server more classic feeling. It's the same concept as knowing manastones will be removed.

Right, but we don't remove manastones here: we keep it classic, even though the classic devs clearly felt manastones were a mistake which never should have been added. And virtually every other decision R&N has ever made regarding "classic environment" vs. "classic mechanics" went with classic mechanics, even if it makes things "worse": this is a "worts and all" server :)

http://wiki.project1999.com/Non-Classic_Compendium breaks down the exceptions to that, but they amount to ZEMs, boat direction, and not allowing the SG glitch (and a bunch of stuff out of R&N's control).

Everything else they make work like it did in 1999-2001. So making any decision which doesn't result in things working "as they did in 1999" is very unusual here (again, unless it's out of the staff's control).

Why exactly, are you under this impression?

Besides that misinformation, as was already stated, do you or anyone else know or have any proof of how the Charm worked and was affected by stats or mob levels? Or any other required information so that an accurate version of this spell that would be forgotten in a couple of months could be enabled? Do you have the required data and files to implement the item tooltip info for the launch version? Do you know which NPCs sold it and which ones it would need to be removed from afterwards?

Shit's never just "flipping a switch."

We've had Charm for ten years here: It is not a new mechanic :)

No new spell files or anything else should be needed ... except, as you noted, maybe adding a few spells to a few vendors (and even forcing Shaman/Necros buy from Enchanter vendors would still be more classic than not having it at all).

As for knowing how it works, classic researchers have presented lots of evidence. So any questions about "what's different for Necros/Shaman" likely is known, and if not the staff can make a best guess (as they've done for many things they don't have evidence for).

Compared to (say) moving all of the essential mobs out Paineel, it is, basically, flipping a switch (although I'll grant we're not literally talking about a single boolean value). I would be amazed if that part was what was holding it up.

I really suspect the issue is NPC-related. For instance, I don't know the code at all, but say they give Necromancer NPCs +100 Charisma behind the scenes (to make some other spell they cast have the right effect). That might have worked fine previously, but when Necros start charming it might make that charm unclassically irresistible.

Whatever the issue is, the staff/researchers have a 10-year history of making so much more happen than just adding a few spells to a few classes, which is why I doubt it's just a technical problem. And that leads me to ...

Getting off topic, but this is one of the reasons I found it pretty odd that Beta started less than 2 weeks from launch. I was hoping that most of this stuff had already been figured out when Blue was new. But now I'm seeing bug reports of weird stuff like certain race/class combos not spawning new chars with guild notes, which makes me ponder what else will be found wrong in this MASSIVE world.

Obviously when they started the project they didn't have ten years of experience doing it. Now that they're circling back to their earliest work, with that experience, they're finding some of it needs a little shoring up. But even so, the vast majority of classic content has already been well-tested on Blue.

[Sillyturtle]

Thank you Loramin for posting more eloquently than me on this subject.

I would say that st the very least the Necro and Shaman player ability should be added. If the NOC component is what’s making things hard. En leave that for a green 2.0. This is an entire facet of Two classes that needs to be included to support and back up every claim of “Classic all the way and damn the rest” that nilbog and Rogean have been saying for years.

I truly hope nilbog finds a way to implement it before launch.

[Nirgon]

Do it

Screw the repercussions! Wew!

[this user was banned]

This is not a reason to justify Nilbog's decision but honestly back in 1999, for real for real, no necro or shaman used charm spell. In a way this decision makes the server more classic feeling. It's the same concept as knowing manastones will be removed. In real classic nobody knew they were going to be removed so the camp was always open. That would be impossible to recreate. But something like this is doable by simply not allowing it, lol..

By this logic alone we should not have item recharging.

[Bardp1999]

Removing item recharging would be the best thing that could possibly happen on this server. Guilds are already starting to require the typical bull shit items "needed to be an effective raider" - which by the way are all basically unintended exploits. Make Norrath Great Again

[TripSin]

What happened to "I'm making it classic damn it and I don't care if no one plays here as a result?" We want that Nilbog back :)



Speak for yourself, please. Not all of us are no-lifer masochists who are absolutely obsessed with nostalgia. Some of us actually have real world obligations that consume our time and would rather this experience be enjoyable instead of striving to some ridiculous sense of "classic" which is literally impossible and will never be.

[Dolalin]

I still think NPC shamans and necros should get these charms in their spellbooks. Everyone should get to experience ultra-classic Mistmoore.

[Asteria]

He replied to my bug thread.

I am disappointed that they're cherrypicking classic things.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2983120#post2983120

IM TALKING

[Asteria]

Staff are more likely to add things that hinder players and less likely to add things that benefit players.

This isn't a disrespectful statement but it is the truth.

I've had conversations with people on this subject. When you give people an inch they'll take a mile so it's easy to see how players may try to take advantage of a bug report to make the game easier. There is however a blatant pattern in the bug report sections of threads where things that hinder players get reviewed/pushed through more quickly.

And yes I understand the staff are very busy with green I'm in no way trying to undermine their efforts. Nothing but Pras for the p99 staff coming from this poster.

---
Also Green (2019) will still have bugs and some non-classic things. Future Green servers will be much more complete in their classic mechanics, gameplay etc. This is a great thing for P99 and P99's future. We are lucky to be getting it.

I'M TALKING

[oldhead]

Charm used to be a non-concern back then because barely anyone bothered (people were scared of pet being "pissed at them" and that their pet might "kill" them.).

Charm is a big deal on P99 because people have 20 years of EQ experience and learned to leverage it to a great extent and great gains.

You can't just add charm to necros and shamans on P99 on a whim as it may completely change / break the whatever imperfect class balance we've had since P99 exists and compromise the launch of Green.

But your version is not classic... which is the whole point of p1999

[Nirgon]

potential repercussion: shit becomes classic

where that tecmo's sig

[Asteria]

potential repercussion: shit becomes classic

where that tecmo's sig

Ur guild makes fun of people born with large mouths! BE AWARE, friend!

[Frug]

Staff are more likely to add things that hinder players and less likely to add things that benefit players.

QFT

[jacob54311]

Wish they'd get rid of the hybrid xp penalty since they are tweaking a few things that weren't classic.

[DMN]

Charm on shaman was nothing more than a parlor trick. Useless. Necro charm had limited use because they already have good pets and they get a much weaker series of charm compared to enchanter and often times your pet would be able to do similar damage as compared to charm pet... so why bother with the charm? It was used 99% of the time as crowd control.


Totally overblown reaction here by not including it in necros kit.

[Wallicker]

Ogre shaman + full charm /shudders

[Dolalin]

Shamans were never able to charm a blue con mob. It was pretty useless.

[Wallicker]

So a shaman charms a dark green rogue pet and slow tanks mobs while said pet shreds them... it will be extremely useful if implemented.

[Dolalin]

Where is a 34+ shaman going to find a level 24 or below rogue pet in most xp zones they could practically xp in? Maybe there are one or two edge cases but practically the wolf pet will always be better.

As they get higher it gets more and more useless because they never get an upgrade to it. It's always capped at 24.

[Wallicker]

Osargen in highkeep
Flame goblin in SolA
Radiant in CT
A gnoll prisoner in Split Paw
A pirate in Oot

I think you get the point

[Dolalin]

No I don't get the point.

Charming Radiant at level 34 isn't gamebreaking. Charming him at 44 is a joke.

[Wallicker]

Does a wolf pet triple for 44 and backstab? Not mention you can give all aforementioned pets gnoll hide Lariats or summoned mage swords.

[DMN]

Does a wolf pet triple for 44 and backstab? Not mention you can give all aforementioned pets gnoll hide Lariats or summoned mage swords.

Wolf pet don't miss every attack because its a bagillion levels below what it should be. You don't know WTF you are talking about so just stop.

[Wallicker]

/sigh at lvl 34 I think most shamans would love to have a low 20s charmed NPC rogue pet as summoned pets are about that lvl anyways...


Spell Level Pet Level Pet ~HP Melee Damage Bash/Kick Damage
Companion Spirit 34 22-26 700-850 22-30 16-18
Vigilant Spirit 39 24-28 750-900 27-35 17-19

So again yes a lvl 24 rogue pet that triples for mid 40s in damage and backstabs is way better.

[DMN]

/sigh at lvl 34 I think most shamans would love to have a low 20s charmed NPC rogue pet as summoned pets are about that lvl anyways...


Spell Level Pet Level Pet ~HP Melee Damage Bash/Kick Damage
Companion Spirit 34 22-26 700-850 22-30 16-18
Vigilant Spirit 39 24-28 750-900 27-35 17-19

So again yes a lvl 24 rogue pet that triples for mid 40s in damage and backstabs is way better.


A backstab that never even lands? Very useful for morons.

[Wallicker]

I’ll be happy to parse a lvl 23 rogue pet vs a lvl 38 shamans max level 26 summoned pet on a high 20s or low 30s mob too see which does more dmg.

[Wallicker]

I’d wager it would out dps even the max pet for a lvl 43 shaman, at 44 yes summoned pet is better but that’s a whole 10 lvls it’s viable.

[DMN]

I'd wager your mom was a heavy drinker and your dad liked to eat lead paint chips.

[Wallicker]

You usually have competent posts and valid points DMN this is not one of your finer moments

[DMN]

You usually have competent posts and valid points DMN this is not one of your finer moments

it's one of those tar baby moments.

[Wallicker]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Sazan_K%60Jartan

Would be a great pet for lvl 35 neriak guards...

[DMN]

https://wiki.project1999.com/Sazan_K%60Jartan

Would be a great pet for lvl 35 neriak guards...

I totally want a pet that costs me mana every couple minutes and can't even hit anything that gives me EXP.

I'm not dumb at all.

[Asteria]

A backstab that never even lands? Very useful for morons.

I'M TALKING

If I could charm the pants outta you, you'd still be more worthless than a backstabbing Osargen or split paw rogue gnoll.

[whitebandit]

/sigh at lvl 34 I think most shamans would love to have a low 20s charmed NPC rogue pet as summoned pets are about that lvl anyways...


Spell Level Pet Level Pet ~HP Melee Damage Bash/Kick Damage
Companion Spirit 34 22-26 700-850 22-30 16-18
Vigilant Spirit 39 24-28 750-900 27-35 17-19

So again yes a lvl 24 rogue pet that triples for mid 40s in damage and backstabs is way better.

I have to ask, Where are you finding ANIMALS that backstab?

[whitebandit]

Osargen in highkeep
Flame goblin in SolA
Radiant in CT
A gnoll prisoner in Split Paw
A pirate in Oot

I think you get the point


Shamans cant charm a single one of these mobs ever............

[Sillyturtle]

Shamans cant charm a single one of these mobs ever............

They SHOULD be able to.

Shaman and Necro's got charm in classic. We proved this.

nilbog decided to not implement it because he didn't want to test it before the launch. I posted this.

[Roth]

They SHOULD be able to.

Shaman and Necro's got charm in classic. We proved this.

nilbog decided to not implement it because he didn't want to test it before the launch. I posted this.

This would have helped the players. Only things that make people quit like no mage pets are allowed.