Something to tank about

[sciception]

I’ve noticed, in several other threads, that people seem confused about class power rankings and overall usefulness for leveling. This seems to be especially true when discussing hybrid classes such as Rangers, Shadow Knights and Paladins. So let’s chat a bit about Tanking classes to clear these misunderstandings up.

Best to worst tanks.

#1. Shadow Knight (SK) - By far the most effective tank due to the spells Disease Cloud, Clinging Darkness and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful). SK’s are one button wonders. All they do is spam their lowest level darkness spell (20 mana snare), and maybe a Disease Cloud (10 mana), to keep the mobs attention. Players that can effectively master the one button rotation may, however, find themselves in precarious situations such as: accidently joining the wrong group, apologizing for already having a group and the awkwardness of telling people your friends list is full. There are, however, some benefits such as: wizard does not have to wait forever to nuke, charm/pet classes being able to send their pets in immediately and the healers being able to sit down to med. As a bonus, both Troll’s and Ogre’s can be SK’s with their over-the-top stats and innate abilities. The incurred experience penalties due race and/or class are easily overcome by the rate at which you will be killing with an SK in your group (seriously, who FD pulls??). Overall, SK is a “Slam” dunk. Nuff said.

#2 Ranger – What????? Yeah, it’s the Ranger. The second on my list of effective tanks is probably the most under-rated of them all. Effective AC is the name of the game, and since Banded Mail will likely be “in-game” day 1, it’s impossible to ignore the agro-whores of EQ. With only 3 less dodge and 15 less parry than the Warrior (@50), the only thing that hinders a Ranger is the inability to wear plate armor at later levels (Oh! and no race that can slam). Some people will claim that Rangers are nothing but gimped Warriors, but give a Ranger a Fire Beetle Eye and watch the Warrior’s cry. Flame lick, a 10 mana spell, is arguably the best snap-agro spell in the game. So much so, that guild’s frequently use Ranger’s for mobs that have Death Touch timers (hence the “Ranger Down” meme we all remember). Furthermore, this amazing ability to hold agro is just the tip of the iceberg. Being ¼ Druid, the Ranger can also root CC (great for pulling as well), snare runners, buff/DS himself, SoW the entire group and even track mobs as they pop. Have a problem with people stealing your pulls? Not happening in a Ranger’s group. The only reason they aren’t listed as number 1 is end game AC, but who’s going to be wearing a full set of plate on their first character anyway? Stamina means very little when it comes down to it, maybe 100-200 hp’s @ 50 and keep in mind that Sol Ro is a long way off, so no Crafted/Ro or BF for you!

#3 Paladin – Number 3 on my list is by far the hardest to master. People tend to remember the chain stunning Paladin’s in all their glory, but this won’t be the case on Green Server. Until the Paladin gets his first stun spell at 30, the level 9 Flash of Light spell (FoL) is their primary means of agro (and here is where the “skill” comes into play). FoL by definition is a fear spell, and as advertised it fears, but if the Paladin is able to maintain a position within 5’ of the mob the spell serves instead as a high agro taunt. Unfortunately, unlike the Rangers Flame Lick and the SK’s Clinging Darkness, FoL has no damage over time effect so the mob must be constantly engaged to be effective (and, of course, to prevent the mob from running to his friends). Most well played Paladin’s never stop using this spell, even after acquiring their stun line, since it is “bar none” the most effective means for the Paladin to maintain agro (tossing in a Yaulp here and there). Also, in addition to snap-agro, these ¼ Cleric “Battle Priest” have an arsenal of useful spells/abilities at their disposal. They can Lull for pulls, nuke undead, heal/buff their party, wear plate and eventually they even get the ability to revive their fallen comrades (though this is so late in the game that it can’t be a PRO for leveling). And let’s not forget their Lay on Hands (LoH) ability. An additional means of snapping agro, this massive heal can turn a wipe into a “Hell Yeah,” moment in a blink of an eye. Having this button by your group window will gain you a LOT of esteem in your Cleric and Enchanter circles, and eventually be valued in raids as well.

#4 Mage Pets – Want a Warrior that roots, procs damage, stuns AND taunts every tick? Then a Magician’s pet is probably the right choice for you. Sure, a Magician isn’t a tank or even a hybrid for that matter, but his pet certainly qualifies. Pets can wear any armor, use any weapon, have innate procs, a 6 second taunt timer, are fully buff-able and you can’t toss a pebble (malachite in this case) without hitting its replacement. Pets will attack or back off as you command, never have to bail because of wife agro, never AFK, never loot, and like a stalker, always seem to have the same play times as you do. But, unlike a stalker, if you’re tired of playing with it you can just tell it to get lost without worrying about what to say when you see it again. Look at it like a master/slave relationship. Want it to sit in one spot or follow you around, then just tell it to. Like it the other way around? Give it some whips. Sounding pretty awesome huh? Unfortunately, pets do have some drawbacks. They tend to be experience-whores and can barely do anything without you telling them to. Mine are always wandering off in the wrong direction and have selective hearing when I ask them to come back. I can’t take them on our walks through public dungeons without them hitting on everyone they meet and I often have to dismiss them until we are alone and making camp. I should mention that my pets get pretty jealous when someone beats on me instead of them, so keep that in mind at certain parties.

#5 Warrior – The high maintenance tank. No snap agro, no provoke, broken taunt button and a very limited selection of proc weapons makes this tank the absolute worst tank on the list. Sure, you could look at it like a Monk pet for DPS purposes or maybe you want one for raids later, but as a leveling tank…bleh. This list is all about effective tanking while leveling and the only positive thing I can say about it is “It gets an experience bonus!” No disciplines to help leveling, completely gear dependent for everything and has practically no ability to save a healer or enchanter if shit hits the fan. Sure, it can work at a very slow pace, but from my experiences people don’t play this game at impulse speed and the group is going to be heavily reliant upon the Enchanter’s charm pet and the Cleric having 2 DA’s up at all times to survive. Trying to think of something to ease the tension, but nothing is coming to mind. IMHO, A Warrior at launch is basically just extra baggage only a guild mother could love. Hell, they aren’t even going to be the best tanks for raids until April 2020.

Well, I suppose you could add Monk or even an Enchanter’s charm pet to this list but you get the idea. It’s all downhill from here. With very little Planar gear to spread around at the end (only the Plane of Fear for the first 6 months?), and that gear being class specific, there really isn’t much point taking the end game into consideration yet(talking to you Warriors). Anyway, feel free to flame away below. Peace, Love and Cosmic Bunnies.

[Danth]

...and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful).

Someone who's never found that spell useful hasn't achieved mastery of the class. It's possible to play a Shadow Knight at a mediocre level as a "one button wonder" but achieving expert or mastery levels of experience requires more effort.

Pretty much everyone who wants plate armor on a fresh server will be able to get bronze by the mid 20's if they want it. Rangers have to wait another ten levels or so for Rubicite. Rangers can wear shields while acting as tanks but seldom do so. The tank role kind of plays against the class's other strengths.

Paladins are the most defensive-minded of the tank types, and tend to get better as the rest of the group gets weaker. In particular they shine in groups which don't have a Cleric healing.

Warriors' aggro generation problems are typically solved either with click items (raids) or with liberal use of root (groups). They have the highest innate health and damage reduction of any class and deal good damage on par with (superior to, if berserk) a Ranger.

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In addition to the above comments, practical reality must warrant consideration as well: Regardless of how effectively Rangers can tank, few pick-up groups will invite them for that purpose ahead of any of the other tank types. As with so many things in life, public perception often affects outcomes more than the actual reality of something does.

Danth

[Trollhide]

Speaking of Rubicite, how long does it drop in classic?

[Dolalin]

Rubi drops until the fall 1999 era when the Temple of Sol Ro is released, I believe. So a reasonably long time.

[Benanov]

By far the most effective tank due to the spells Disease Cloud, Clinging Darkness and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful).

Shroud of Hate is, IMO, the snap-aggro spell you want at higher levels. Shadow Vortex is nice, but nothing pisses mobs off more than stealing their ATK. Shadow Vortex has its place. Both spells do no damage and will not break mez, so you can chain both of those, and siphon strength, and if you don't have a lot of DPS heat blood, and you have about 6 seconds to hammer on Disease Cloud (which will break mez) and that shoudl make the mob so absolutely pissed off that it won't even LOOK at a caster.

However - Shroud of Hate lasts longer as a buff, which means you can Shadow Vortex every pull (because you'll need to) and use Shroud of Hate as an ATK buff alongside Grim Aura.

[Polycaster]

Pretty much everyone who wants plate armor on a fresh server will be able to get bronze by the mid 20's if they want it.
...
Paladins are the most defensive-minded of the tank types, and tend to get better as the rest of the group gets weaker. In particular they shine in groups which don't have a Cleric healing.
...
Warriors' aggro generation problems are typically solved either with click items (raids) or with liberal use of root (groups). They have the highest innate health and damage reduction of any class and deal good damage on par with (superior to, if berserk) a Ranger.

Danth

Only shorties will have bronze. Lg bronze is a bitch to get, and fairly rare, especially considering most tanks are fatties.

Actually SK are the best in weak groups because they can snare/ fear mobs. Any group that needs the tank to spend lots of mana to be effective (i.e., healing) is a crap group that will have lots of downtime. Paladin is a great class, but in most areas an SK is better.

Warrior agro problems are never solved, only partially mitigated. IIRC a war w/ 255 dex dual-wielding procs will still have to wait on average something like 10s between procs. This means slowers can't slow w/o getting beat, and mezd mobs need to be rooted. Root helps, but it can't be relied on due to breaks and lazy casters. As for root nets, no warrior is going to be using a root click every mob, and so it doesn't solve anything.

[Rang]

Only shorties will have bronze. Lg bronze is a bitch to get, and fairly rare, especially considering most tanks are fatties.

Actually SK are the best in weak groups because they can snare/ fear mobs. Any group that needs the tank to spend lots of mana to be effective (i.e., healing) is a crap group that will have lots of downtime. Paladin is a great class, but in most areas an SK is better.

Warrior agro problems are never solved, only partially mitigated. IIRC a war w/ 255 dex dual-wielding procs will still have to wait on average something like 10s between procs. This means slowers can't slow w/o getting beat, and mezd mobs need to be rooted. Root helps, but it can't be relied on due to breaks and lazy casters. As for root nets, no warrior is going to be using a root click every mob, and so it doesn't solve anything.

you should hang out in najena more

[Danth]

However - Shroud of Hate lasts longer as a buff, which means you can Shadow Vortex every pull (because you'll need to) and use Shroud of Hate as an ATK buff alongside Grim Aura.

You're not going to be using shroud of hate or grim aura on a fresh server Shadow Knight because both of those spells are Velious additions to that class.

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Don't forget medium bronze armor, which drops in Permafrost (and soldungb too). It's not hard to obtain. Only Ogres and Trolls are stuck having to wear large, hence the supply is usually sufficient. In general only the very fastest-leveling tank characters run into much trouble with item availability.

I've played Paladin and Shadow Knight both very extensively and regard Paladin as the slightly better group tank of the two although it's close enough that most groups don't care one for the other (a knight's a knight insofar as most groups care). I like the SK class better overall nowadays. I'd rather have either of them than a Warrior.

Danth

[sciception]

Someone who's never found that spell useful hasn't achieved mastery of the class. It's possible to play a Shadow Knight at a mediocre level as a "one button wonder" but achieving expert or mastery levels of experience requires more effort.

I am saying it isn't necessary and it isn't. Anyone can click Clinging Darkness over and over to achieve the same result. I guess if you are battling another SK then you might need a strategy, but is that really going to happen leveling?

Pretty much everyone who wants plate armor on a fresh server will be able to get bronze by the mid 20's if they want it. Rangers have to wait another ten levels or so for Rubicite. Rangers can wear shields while acting as tanks but seldom do so. The tank role kind of plays against the class's other strengths.

110 AC on Bronze Vs. 91 on banded, assuming you actually collect all the pieces your size. For leveling purposes, this is a nominal difference. That is also assuming people know where to go for their sizes. Large bronze is the most rare. Ogre's and trolls aren't going to have fun trying to get around in Nanjena and I assure you the camp in WK will be perma-camped.

Paladins are the most defensive-minded of the tank types, and tend to get better as the rest of the group gets weaker. In particular they shine in groups
which don't have a Cleric healing.

As a Paladin myself, I agree they shine. I don't agree that having a different type of healer is the reason. Pre-Planar the type of healer is almost inconsequential IMO. Paladin's also have the advantage of being able to actually get their bronze armor drops.

Warriors' aggro generation problems are typically solved either with click items (raids) or with liberal use of root (groups). They have the highest innate health and damage reduction of any class and deal good damage on par with (superior to, if berserk) a Ranger.

Like I posted, you will have Naggy and Vox. Perhaps you can clarify what clicky items you are referring to. After 3 months you get Fear and after 6 months you get Hate. I can't think of a thing that would make them viable, but again this is a leveling post. Also, Warrior's aren't getting block so the DR you speak of is also negligible. I stand with my statement that Warrior's are completely inept while leveling and average, at best 3rd place, for the first 6 month of raids as well.

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In addition to the above comments, practical reality must warrant consideration as well: Regardless of how effectively Rangers can tank, few pick-up groups will invite them for that purpose ahead of any of the other tank types. As with so many things in life, public perception often affects outcomes more than the actual reality of something does.

I agree that it will be difficult due to mindsets. What I am trying to get across with this post is the reality not the perception.

Danth

[Tenlaar]

I've played Paladin and Shadow Knight both very extensively and regard Paladin as the slightly better group tank of the two although it's close enough that most groups don't care one for the other (a knight's a knight insofar as most groups care). I like the SK class better overall nowadays. I'd rather have either of them than a Warrior.

Danth

This is where I tend to fall on the issue as well. I regard paladin as the slightly better group tank in basically any situation where FD splitting isn't needed, but the increased ease of getting places and the easier time soloing through fear kiting makes me enjoy the SK more.

[Deathrydar]

This is where I tend to fall on the issue as well. I regard paladin as the slightly better group tank in basically any situation where FD splitting isn't needed, but the increased ease of getting places and the easier time soloing through fear kiting makes me enjoy the SK more.

I believe it all comes down to the human that is controlling the Paladin or the Shadow Knight.

[Tenlaar]

If you're a higher level SK and you aren't using Shadow Vortex to keep up with agro buildup on mes'd mobs so that when their turn is up all that you need is a Disease Cloud to wake them up and they're stuck on you?

Well, I don't think you're playing an SK very well...

[sciception]

This is where I tend to fall on the issue as well. I regard paladin as the slightly better group tank in basically any situation where FD splitting isn't needed, but the increased ease of getting places and the easier time soloing through fear kiting makes me enjoy the SK more.

This difference between the two is pretty small 1-50, but the styles are much different. When I played an Enchanter, I loved Paladins and cursed SK's.

[sciception]

If you're a higher level SK and you aren't using Shadow Vortex to keep up with agro buildup on mes'd mobs so that when they're turn is up all that you need is a Disease Cloud to wake them up and they're stuck on you?

Well, I don't think you're playing an SK very well...

Sure this makes sense, but again, not necessary most of the time. Sounds like a mana drain when you could have used darkness and taunt. 40 mana a cast, I assure you I wouldn't use that to break every mezz. Only the dangerous ones like maybe The Froglok King or something that could kill my Enchanter. Probably not even then.

[GreldorEQ]

Don't forget lvl 30 Wave of Enfeeblement, PBAE 0 damage Str debuff. SK stat taps are the expert-level SK spells, combine with Taunt and your chanter will rarely get hit. SK is the only tank with AE taunt at 40 mana/cast.

[Danth]

SK-related comments

Alright I'll elaborate. If you play the SK as a "one button wonder" you're mediocre. Shadow Vortex doesn't get used as often as the other aggro spells, but it has its uses and is a valued part of the spellbook.

Its most obvious and popular use is building hate on mesmerized targets. This doesn't merely save the Enchanter from being hit, it also saves his rune spell and hence saves him money. They appreciate that. As a corollary you also use it on targets which might have to be mesmerized, such as pulls where you know in advance that you might get adds you have to switch to mid-battle (obvious but far from only example is hate breaks where you might get golems adding in). for the same reason it's also the go-to spell for aggro'ing loose mobs that haven't been controlled yet. Don't you HATE it when some brain-dead SK dots multiple monsters making 'em almost unmezzable for duration?

In addition to the above in P99's past Shadow Vortex got used for building aggro on rooted but non-engaged creatures. Snare didn't stack with root in the original game, and on P99 if a spell couldn't land (as opposed to a resist) it built no aggro, hence Clinging couldn't be used for that purpose (this aggro mechanic may have been changed--we'll see). You don't use Disease Cloud on rooted targets since the direct damage component can and does break root.

The easily-kept and readily-applied buff component acts as a low-maintenance junk buff in an era where clicky-related junk buffs are not easily obtained. I really hate it when symbol of naltron gets dispelled. Doesn't everyone?

Calling a mode of gameplay mediocre isn't an insult. Mediocre will by definition get the job done most the time. It's not wholly ineffective. It simply means the player who operates it in that fashion won't be getting the most out of his character in more advanced situations. Groups can invite a mediocre SK and usually beat the content. However the good player will distinguish himself.

EDIT: Greldor is right about the AE. It's low-aggro but situationally useful for rounding up packs on incoming. It tends to not be used much, and even then usually not for many levels after it's first learned, so many players forget about it entirely.

Danth

[sciception]

Mediocre SK stuff.

Sure, at 39 you get the ability to do this. It may help if you have a mediocre Enchanter. I guess I would prefer a mediocre SK over a constantly OOM one, but hey that's just me. At best it's situational and I can agree that it could help in certain circumstances. I'd like to mention that this post was simply my opinion on the ranking's of each tank for leveling purposes. How you actually want to play your SK is up to you. I am playing a Paladin.

EDIT: Greldor is right about the AE. It's low-aggro but situationally useful for rounding up packs on incoming. It tends to not be used much, and even then usually not for many levels after it's first learned, so many players forget about it entirely.

Dude, that spell is useless the very second a healer heals. Even if you are out of LoS and cast this first, the second you get them into camp and someone heals it's over. Low agro is an understatement.

Danth

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Warriors will be dual-wielding Obsidian Shards around the mid-20s most likely. Makes their threat gen a whole better if still unreliable

[sciception]

Warriors will be dual-wielding Obsidian Shards around the mid-20s most likely. Makes their threat gen a whole better if still unreliable

Yup, but their is only 1 Predator in 1 camp for the entire server. What's after that? The low DPS ratio of that weapon isn't going to last long and procs are dexterity based, which isn't exactly the large races strong suit. Sure, pray for Shaman rain and a hell of a supporting cast I suppose. Also, getting this at 19'ish shouldn't be a problem for most groups.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

I generally defer to the opinions of Danth in any matters of Knightly-concern.

[Glasken]

Alright, I'll bite. It's slow at work.

Out of the gate, lets make it ubundantly clear that this is talking about GROUP TANKS for GROUP CONTENT and not at all addressing raid tanks in classic or Kunark/Velious.

Group content in Classic era. Lets check out these statements point by point.



Best to worst tanks.

#1. Shadow Knight (SK) - By far the most effective tank due to the spells Disease Cloud, Clinging Darkness and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful). SK’s are one button wonders. All they do is spam their lowest level darkness spell (20 mana snare), and maybe a Disease Cloud (10 mana), to keep the mobs attention. Players that can effectively master the one button rotation may, however, find themselves in precarious situations such as: accidently joining the wrong group, apologizing for already having a group and the awkwardness of telling people your friends list is full. There are, however, some benefits such as: wizard does not have to wait forever to nuke, charm/pet classes being able to send their pets in immediately and the healers being able to sit down to med. As a bonus, both Troll’s and Ogre’s can be SK’s with their over-the-top stats and innate abilities. The incurred experience penalties due race and/or class are easily overcome by the rate at which you will be killing with an SK in your group (seriously, who FD pulls??). Overall, SK is a “Slam” dunk. Nuff said.

I actually agree with most of the comments here, though I would say they are tied for first with paladins if they have access to stun spells out of the gate (I don't recall if they did or not in the classic period). I will however take issue with the idea of just relying on "one button mastery" for this class. Of all the tank classes, this one has the most utility for pulling, damage mitigation, and snap agro. The SK class can have a pretty high skill ceiling due to just the mechanics of feign death alone.

Easy to play well, difficult to master.

Well worth the exp penalty IMO.



#2 Ranger – What????? Yeah, it’s the Ranger. The second on my list of effective tanks is probably the most under-rated of them all. Effective AC is the name of the game, and since Banded Mail will likely be “in-game” day 1, it’s impossible to ignore the agro-whores of EQ. With only 3 less dodge and 15 less parry than the Warrior (@50), the only thing that hinders a Ranger is the inability to wear plate armor at later levels (Oh! and no race that can slam). Some people will claim that Rangers are nothing but gimped Warriors, but give a Ranger a Fire Beetle Eye and watch the Warrior’s cry. Flame lick, a 10 mana spell, is arguably the best snap-agro spell in the game. So much so, that guild’s frequently use Ranger’s for mobs that have Death Touch timers (hence the “Ranger Down” meme we all remember). Furthermore, this amazing ability to hold agro is just the tip of the iceberg. Being ¼ Druid, the Ranger can also root CC (great for pulling as well), snare runners, buff/DS himself, SoW the entire group and even track mobs as they pop. Have a problem with people stealing your pulls? Not happening in a Ranger’s group. The only reason they aren’t listed as number 1 is end game AC, but who’s going to be wearing a full set of plate on their first character anyway? Stamina means very little when it comes down to it, maybe 100-200 hp’s @ 50 and keep in mind that Sol Ro is a long way off, so no Crafted/Ro or BF for you!

Rangers get taunt. Rangers get a bag of tricks (many of which mimic what a shadowknight can do, plus root!!). Rangers wear chain not plate. All solid points. But you are missing a key aspect as to why rangers are generally bad tanks...mitigation tables.

This is getting into the meta a bit, but classes in EQ do not share one big damage table. Casters, Monks, Knights, Warriors...all get their own damage table that modifies their mitigation and avoidance independent of whatever AC you have from gear or buffs. For mitigation, warriors are on top, then knights, monks, casters, and the like.

While a ranger is a great benefit to any group, a bard can tank just as well.

The ranger is another class that has a high skill ceiling to really play well. Make use of all your snare, root, and snap agro abilities to win the hearts of any group.



#3 Paladin – Number 3 on my list is by far the hardest to master. People tend to remember the chain stunning Paladin’s in all their glory, but this won’t be the case on Green Server. Until the Paladin gets his first stun spell at 30, the level 9 Flash of Light spell (FoL) is their primary means of agro (and here is where the “skill” comes into play). FoL by definition is a fear spell, and as advertised it fears, but if the Paladin is able to maintain a position within 5’ of the mob the spell serves instead as a high agro taunt. Unfortunately, unlike the Rangers Flame Lick and the SK’s Clinging Darkness, FoL has no damage over time effect so the mob must be constantly engaged to be effective (and, of course, to prevent the mob from running to his friends). Most well played Paladin’s never stop using this spell, even after acquiring their stun line, since it is “bar none” the most effective means for the Paladin to maintain agro (tossing in a Yaulp here and there). Also, in addition to snap-agro, these ¼ Cleric “Battle Priest” have an arsenal of useful spells/abilities at their disposal. They can Lull for pulls, nuke undead, heal/buff their party, wear plate and eventually they even get the ability to revive their fallen comrades (though this is so late in the game that it can’t be a PRO for leveling). And let’s not forget their Lay on Hands (LoH) ability. An additional means of snapping agro, this massive heal can turn a wipe into a “Hell Yeah,” moment in a blink of an eye. Having this button by your group window will gain you a LOT of esteem in your Cleric and Enchanter circles, and eventually be valued in raids as well.

This should be tied for first with shadowknight. They can root, heal, stun, and take a hit. They bring a lot of utility to a group and can remove some headache from a healer by spot healing or helping to manage agro with root. Solid class, great tank, well worth having one in a group or as a partner for any other class.


#4 Mage Pets – Want a Warrior that roots, procs damage, stuns AND taunts every tick? Then a Magician’s pet is probably the right choice for you. Sure, a Magician isn’t a tank or even a hybrid for that matter, but his pet certainly qualifies. Pets can wear any armor, use any weapon, have innate procs, a 6 second taunt timer, are fully buff-able and you can’t toss a pebble (malachite in this case) without hitting its replacement. Pets will attack or back off as you command, never have to bail because of wife agro, never AFK, never loot, and like a stalker, always seem to have the same play times as you do. But, unlike a stalker, if you’re tired of playing with it you can just tell it to get lost without worrying about what to say when you see it again. Look at it like a master/slave relationship. Want it to sit in one spot or follow you around, then just tell it to. Like it the other way around? Give it some whips. Sounding pretty awesome huh? Unfortunately, pets do have some drawbacks. They tend to be experience-whores and can barely do anything without you telling them to. Mine are always wandering off in the wrong direction and have selective hearing when I ask them to come back. I can’t take them on our walks through public dungeons without them hitting on everyone they meet and I often have to dismiss them until we are alone and making camp. I should mention that my pets get pretty jealous when someone beats on me instead of them, so keep that in mind at certain parties.

Mage pets should be tanking only when there are no melee characters in the group. For a group of casters, a mage pet is great, but pets will not take agro from a player in melee unless you are playing with root and proximity dances. This holds true for any pet class, be it an enchanters charmed pet/animation (great tanks btw, for caster groups), or a necro pet. SK pets and shaman pets are a bit too squishy to tank for a group beyond a few rounds. Also, when grouped, pets do not consume any exp unless they do 100% of the damage to the target. Pets make great tanks in an all-caster group, and great dps when a melee player is available to take hits.


#5 Warrior – The high maintenance tank. No snap agro, no provoke, broken taunt button and a very limited selection of proc weapons makes this tank the absolute worst tank on the list. Sure, you could look at it like a Monk pet for DPS purposes or maybe you want one for raids later, but as a leveling tank…bleh. This list is all about effective tanking while leveling and the only positive thing I can say about it is “It gets an experience bonus!” No disciplines to help leveling, completely gear dependent for everything and has practically no ability to save a healer or enchanter if shit hits the fan. Sure, it can work at a very slow pace, but from my experiences people don’t play this game at impulse speed and the group is going to be heavily reliant upon the Enchanter’s charm pet and the Cleric having 2 DA’s up at all times to survive. Trying to think of something to ease the tension, but nothing is coming to mind. IMHO, A Warrior at launch is basically just extra baggage only a guild mother could love. Hell, they aren’t even going to be the best tanks for raids until April 2020.

I could not agree more. Without proper gearing specc'd for threat generation, a warrior is sub-par compared to one of the knights. However, that gearing will come, and at the top of their game warriors are tied for first simply due to their mitigation, and this only runs further away as the expansions come out. A warrior is a long-haul end-game tank class, but not a great group tank. I also find them to be a bit one-dimensional, but still highly necessary for end game content.

Group with your warrior tank as much as possible. Help them. Raise them up, and they will be your hero when its raid time.


Well, I suppose you could add Monk or even an Enchanter’s charm pet to this list but you get the idea. It’s all downhill from here. With very little Planar gear to spread around at the end (only the Plane of Fear for the first 6 months?), and that gear being class specific, there really isn’t much point taking the end game into consideration yet(talking to you Warriors). Anyway, feel free to flame away below. Peace, Love and Cosmic Bunnies.

I would put monks in there with warriors for tanking ability. Threat generation similar to a warrior, but with the squishiness of a ranger. It can work, but until they get itemized I would take a knight first.


This is a good discussion to have. I may be off base with some of my opinions, so lets hear your points and add them to the pile!

The reality is, classic is going to be very different from the world we know on P99Blue today. Casters and pet classes are going to reign supreme until its raid time, and by then good guilds will have either sunk the resources into warriors and knights or have the ability to quickly power level the ones they need.

Everyone seems in a jitter about the exp penalty of knights and bards and monks, but the truth is, if you arnt running a caster-only group, you're gonna want one in the group taking hits, snapping agro, and using their bag of tricks to the fullest.

When it comes to classic era group content, a knight is the better tank. Fight me.

[Danth]

and some say Shadow Vortex (But, I’ve never found that useful).

Sure this makes sense, but again, not necessary most of the time.

These comments are mutually exclusive. I disagree with the former, not the latter. Shadow Vortex is not normally a primary hate generation spell. It is however highly useful for certain jobs as elaborated above. Since the latter comment is the newer one I consider you to have corrected yourself. All's good.

--------------------------------------------------

Glasken: I did not bring up differing mitigation tables because P99's host is its own entity and I don't know if anyone has ever done the necessary parsing to see where P99 stands in that regard. What was true in the original game is not necessarily true here so I consider that particular point an unknown.

Danth

[zaneosak]

I have no experience tanking but mained a cleric for all of live kunark thru GoD (i had no alts) i always wanted SK or Paladins almost in any situation. (except for high end raid groups where you had access to multiple of all classes)

[Gustoo]

Warriors do more dps and hold aggro OK.

SK and Pal and Ranger get more hate but the first two are bad dps and the last one is an inferior tank.

Ogre classes are going to be the best tanks in vanilla by a long shot. Their base stats and stun resist are the best. I'm a ranger guy but they don't stand up to an ogre when it comes to tanking. If ogres could be rangers it would be a different story.

All I'm trying to say is that id take any warrior or sk or paladin for tanking duties on green. Monk and Ranger are okay too.

[Jimjam]

There is only 10 difference in defence skill between ranger and warrior on vanilla though...

Furthermore, early game both will be wearing banded, late game both wear mithril; Main difference is hp pool.

Can someone confirm if wiki is right on the level 50 skill cap for defence (in vanilla) is 230? Their avoidance, and mitigation if going for an AC build, is just going to be so far beyond anyone else?

[Glasken]

Warriors do more dps and hold aggro OK.

SK and Pal and Ranger get more hate but the first two are bad dps and the last one is an interior tank.

Ogre classes are going to be the best tanks in vanilla by a long shot. Their base stats and stun resist are the best. I'm a ranger guy but they don't stand up to an ogre when it comes to tanking. If ogres could be rangers it would be a different story.

Basically my long-winded comments in a nutshell.

I would add the paladin in there however. Yes ogres are great and the race adds a lot to the classes they can play, but they arnt the best group tank just because #ogre. Size is an issue, mobility is an issue, and even a pretty-faced elf paladin can take a hit pretty much as well as an ogre shadowknight can until you start getting into the really hard stuff at 45-50 (damn bashing evil frogs come to mind).

I think it's important to keep the frame of discussion about leveling groups. Fact is, warriors mitigate the best but snap agro the worst, and pathing bugs aside they dont pull any better than just making some tiny trains.

[sciception]

Alright, I'll bite. It's slow at work.


Rangers get taunt. Rangers get a bag of tricks (many of which mimic what a shadowknight can do, plus root!!). Rangers wear chain not plate. All solid points. But you are missing a key aspect as to why rangers are generally bad tanks...mitigation tables.

This is getting into the meta a bit, but classes in EQ do not share one big damage table. Casters, Monks, Knights, Warriors...all get their own damage table that modifies their mitigation and avoidance independent of whatever AC you have from gear or buffs. For mitigation, warriors are on top, then knights, monks, casters, and the like.

I've been researching original mitigation tables and have found nothing concrete until a 2001 patch where they buffed Warriors by 5 percent. Do you have those tables and how much of a difference are we talking about when leveling?

Mage pets should be tanking only when there are no melee characters in the group. For a group of casters, a mage pet is great, but pets will not take agro from a player in melee unless you are playing with root and proximity dances.

I was 1/2 joking about this, but the proximity agro is none the less a solid point I forgot to include.

Everyone seems in a jitter about the exp penalty of knights and bards and monks, but the truth is, if you arent running a caster-only group, you're gonna want one in the group taking hits, snapping agro, and using their bag of tricks to the fullest.

Exactly, don't hate the hybrids. They are by far the best choice.



I pretty much agree with you on most of the points you made. I am desperately searching for the mitigation tables from 1999, but even if it was 20-30 percent better for a Warrior it doesn't matter much if the Warrior isn't the one getting hit. I understand that they will have their place in raids and supporting them is good, but for leveling I am sticking to my statements on the matter.

[sciception]

Glasken: I did not bring up differing mitigation tables because P99's host is its own entity and I don't know if anyone has ever done the necessary parsing to see where P99 stands in that regard. What was true in the original game is not necessarily true here so I consider that particular point an unknown.

Yeah, someone just brought that up. I can't find anything on the original mitgation tables at all.

Danth

[Danth]

You won't find all the information you're looking for because it's not out there. For many years AC was broken on P1999. Any threads pre-dating about mid 2015 are thus useless for your purpose. Armor was fixed in 2015 and a modest amount of trial was conducted by myself and others to confirm that point, but that's about the limit of what I ever saw. Most testing was done with Warriors, a little with Knights, and virtually nothing with Rangers or other light melee. Only the developers who programmed it know the details for sure, and in true classic spirit they aren't spelling it out.

What we have to go on in-game is that Rangers mitigate sufficiently for most group content, including effectively all "normal" group content. Shields should in this case not be forgotten even by Rangers since P1999 uses the slightly out-of-era shield overcap bonus.

EDIT: In the original game Warriors had 90% AC effect, Knights 75% and Rangers lower still (I forget offhand). Knights had a tough time and Rangers were mana-sponges. They seem to do better than that on P1999 in my experience.

Danth

[sciception]

There is only 10 difference in defence skill between ranger and warrior on vanilla though...

Furthermore, early game both will be wearing banded, late game both wear mithril; Main difference is hp pool.

Can someone confirm if wiki is right on the level 50 skill cap for defence (in vanilla) is 230? Their avoidance, and mitigation if going for an AC build, is just going to be so far beyond anyone else?


Love to know myself. Also, the Ranger is going to have a higher avoidance multiplier, so until I see a table with class specific mitigation differences I won't be changing the order. I probably still wouldn't change Paladin to #2 due to the insane learning curve compared to Rangers.

[GreldorEQ]

We are going to be many months away from having clerics around to do rezzes for the sake or rezzing, survivability on green will be so very important.

That being said, the survivability aspect of knights are going to outshine a warrior in group content. The tools in the toolbox for knights help make this happen, snare, root, stun, LoH, Harmtouch, FD.

Dying is going to be a giant pain in the ass on green, where it is a marginal inconvenience on blue today. It will drive a noticeable difference in the players who can master their classes with only classic spell-sets and weapons.

[sciception]

You won't find this information because it's not out there. For many years AC was broken on P1999. Any threads pre-dating about mid 2015 are thus useless for your purpose. Armor was fixed in 2015 and a modest amount of trial was conducted by myself and others to confirm that point, but that's about the limit of what I ever saw. Most testing was done with Warriors, a little with Knights, and virtually nothing with Rangers or other light melee. Only the developers who programmed it know the details for sure, and in true classic spirit they aren't spelling it out.

What we have to go on in-game is that Rangers mitigate sufficiently for most group content, including effectively all "normal" group content. Shields should in this case not be forgotten even by Rangers since P1999 uses the slightly out-of-era shield overcap bonus.

Danth

Haha, yeah EQ has always been a guessing game. Only recently have they put this information in the Resource folder on live.

[sciception]

Not necessarily for leveling purposes, but when Warriors get two Yaks they become much stronger and more viable for sure. Just thought I'd concede this point even though no one has brought it up.

[astuce999]

Neat.

20 years later and 4 pages in and no one mentions a bard tank.

I guess Green will be a truly classic experience on that level.

*note: I will grant you all that most players who play bards won't be able to tank, so if you want to do a 'in reality' thing, sure, there won't be many bard tanks on the server.

good times ahead.

Astuce

[bum3]

^ they get some massive agro songs and wear plate. From my experience they typically start to run in circles when a hard hitting mob gets on them... =)

[Jimjam]

Love to know myself. Also, the Ranger is going to have a higher avoidance multiplier, so until I see a table with class specific mitigation differences I won't be changing the order. I probably still wouldn't change Paladin to #2 due to the insane learning curve compared to Rangers.

If this stuff about mitigation/avoidance tables is correct, i don't think p1999 has such a feature.

I remember when i was investigating AC i found ranger took a similar average hit in KC to other classes (because it was easy to reach the point of diminished return for AC) but MASSIVELY lagged behind on avoidance. I think i comment on my data with more detail in the old bard vs ranger thread.

Ranger on blue doesn't live up to their reputation on classic. I'm not sure if this is because itemisation is better understood or if rangers are simply bugged.

[Glasken]

Neat.

20 years later and 4 pages in and no one mentions a bard tank.

I guess Green will be a truly classic experience on that level.

*note: I will grant you all that most players who play bards won't be able to tank, so if you want to do a 'in reality' thing, sure, there won't be many bard tanks on the server.

good times ahead.

Astuce


*ahem*

I did mention a bard tank. And put them where they belong.

:D


...

While a ranger is a great benefit to any group, a bard can tank just as well.

...

Fight me.

[Glasken]

I have been out of the loop on P99 for a while, so I went forum searching.

Looking into the AC issues, I can see how it would be a massive undertaking to get AC values correct if the original (or at least close-to-era) tables are gone.

I'll do some more looking around, but I did manage to find this post from an EQ DEV regarding AC:

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/ac-vs-acv2.210028/#post-3078126

It's Daybreak, and it's Apr 16, 2014, but worth a look I think.


I also vaguely remember a post a looooong time ago that blew my mind about how warriors worked. It was during the early stages of Luclin and was made by a person who played a female gnome warrior that was doing research on how the weapon damage bonuses worked and how AC worked by parsing themselves and guildmates getting hit and hitting with various bits of gear added or removed. Only thing I can remember about the forum is that it used a white background...super helpful I know.

Trying to find the forum post but it may be lost.

[cd288]

Guilds use Rangers as DT targets because they don't contribute that much in a raid.

[sciception]

Guilds use Rangers as DT targets because they don't contribute that much in a raid.

I find that hard to believe. Wizard's completely useless in Sky sure, but melee DPS always adds up.

[astuce999]

*ahem*

I did mention a bard tank. And put them where they belong.

:D

You used it as a verb and not a noun, doesn't count :)

Astuce

[sciception]

You used it as a verb and not a noun, doesn't count :)

Astuce

I wonder if the Bards are going to have that over the top AE mezz at launch.

[astuce999]

I wonder if the Bards are going to have that over the top AE mezz at launch.

We did on blue.

good times.

Astuce

[sciception]

We did on blue.

good times.

Astuce

Did you have the mana free AE?

[astuce999]

Did you have the mana free AE?

By the time I got to those levels, around april/may 2010 it already had a mana component. There's a high chance it had it from day 0 since bards were severely broken for a long time.

Astuce

[Natewest1987]

This was all actually really informative lol. Plz pleaaaaseee make a caster discussion thread and all y’all have at it. But... please ? :-(

[Chryorn]

When I changed from Necro to DE Cleric during Kunark on live I missed my Necro's pet from time to time. With the start of Velious I built a second pc and started to box.
Guild decided to be on Giant faction, we started to kill in Icewell Keep almost right away and with the Velium Frosted Armor dropping there I twinked an Iksar SK. Probably the first lizard in full plate on the server. I got him a Noctivagant Blade and started to level my pet.

I gave up on it during his 30s. Kill speed sucked, killing a mob just took so very long. I switched to Ranger. Worse armor, acceptable weapons choices (I wasn't rich, things had to be cheap. Most expensive item was the FBSS I think). More utility than the SK - from my point of view - but of course no decent races are able to become Rangers. I settled on a pesky Wood Elf.
The difference was interesting. The kill speed was much higher and due to that I needed less mana to keep the Ranger alive. I didn't expect that. I never looked back at that SK as a Cleric's pet.

Of course with a group it is different, since the SK is not there to be the dps.

[sciception]

*Stated Ranger needed less healing than an SK*



Yeah, I am hearing a lot about "mitigation" values of Warriors and Knights. What I'd like to know is why some seriously good players I know Wood Elf Warriors instead of the prerfered races. I strongly suspect that AGI is the answer. I may even make a WE Ranger to tank our premade to prove/disprove the point.

Speaking of which, we have a Cleric / Me (Tank) and another who is undecided between Shaman and Druid (Hoping Druid)....what we are looking for are no-lifers with completely open play time and we need Enchanters and Mages to fill our ranks.

Here is the link to our forum post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335612

[Cen]

I think Rangers are a really great class. Its like a melee blender version of a bard, where the bard focuses more on casting. Harmony, flame lick, decent armor options and respectable damage.

[sciception]

I think Rangers are a really great class. Its like a melee blender version of a bard, where the bard focuses more on casting. Harmony, flame lick, decent armor options and respectable damage.

Comparing the two:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ranger#Combat_Skills

https://wiki.project1999.com/Warrior#Combat_Skills

Warrior's seem to get more of everything defensively, mitigation tables aside. Even double attack is higher than a Rangers. I don't see much of anything the Ranger excels at over a Warrior, but for leveling purposes the snap-agro class always wins. I seriously may try Ranger tanking. I think it will bother me not taking this opportunity to know.

[Deathrydar]

Comparing the two:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ranger#Combat_Skills

https://wiki.project1999.com/Warrior#Combat_Skills

Warrior's seem to get more of everything defensively, mitigation tables aside. Even double attack is higher than a Rangers. I don't see much of anything the Ranger excels at over a Warrior, but for leveling purposes the snap-agro class always wins. I seriously may try Ranger tanking. I think it will bother me not taking this opportunity to know.

I really think that if someone ever wanted to start a Ranger, NOW is the time at Green's launch!

[Jimjam]

Comparing the two:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Ranger#Combat_Skills

https://wiki.project1999.com/Warrior#Combat_Skills

Warrior's seem to get more of everything defensively, mitigation tables aside. Even double attack is higher than a Rangers. I don't see much of anything the Ranger excels at over a Warrior, but for leveling purposes the snap-agro class always wins. I seriously may try Ranger tanking. I think it will bother me not taking this opportunity to know.

Are we looking at the 50 or 60 caps?

[sciception]

Are we looking at the 50 or 60 caps?

50

[Dolalin]

In classic Ranger will suffer a bit due to chain mitigation vs plate, but realistically, all tank classes will be complete balls next to mage/necro pets, so whatever.

[Palemoon]

I can see warriors being DPS in groups leveling up. It won't be bad to have both a knight AND a warrior in the group, especially since the warrior will be taking less xp than anyone else in the party.

I can see the knights pulling and bringing mobs to the camp, the warrior jumps on it and as soon as agro is transfered the knight goes back out for another mob. This leaves the much higher DPS (ranger/monk/warrior) in the party doing that DPS.

People really need to play what they want, good players will make things work.

Will groups of mages have a advantage? yes, but I bet you they will be killing the same amount of mobs in Lguk as the melee heavy group down the hallway because it will be so crowded there won't be excess amounts of mobs to take.

[uygi]

If you're a higher level SK and you aren't using Shadow Vortex to keep up with agro buildup on mes'd mobs so that when their turn is up all that you need is a Disease Cloud to wake them up and they're stuck on you?

Well, I don't think you're playing an SK very well...

QFT, that’s the most important use for SV. Sucks when the enchanter then blurs the mob, though.

SV is the most and quickest snap aggro, even more than DC. Clinging isn’t bad, but the other two are better. All are very low mana.

In a good group the SK should either pull or tank, usually not both (unless you’ve split the spawns). I think the best crypt/emp groups I was ever in had both SK and warrior. SK is a great puller and more than good enough tank for crypt, but in a really good group the puller doesn’t stick around for the fight anyways.

Leveling up, Paladin stuns are amazing. Post 50 they peter out and in higher level camps they just straight up don’t work.

Warriors are good DPS, they have high skill caps for offensive and defensive abilities. They’ll never match a rogue because they can’t BS, but a warrior behind the mob is a good DPS contributor.

[Tenlaar]

People really need to play what they want, good players will make things work.

I don't think this can be stressed enough. With 20 years of knowledge about what each class can do we couldn't even come up with a group that can't work decently well if we tried. Hell, six clerics could destroy all the way to 50.